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preroll music
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Herald: Actually, we have two
consecutive talks of half an hour.
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And as they’re both on the
same more-or-less topic
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we’ve decided to junk
them. One is right now,
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that’s Thomas Lohninger from
Austria, my home country.
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And the next one is Fredy
Kuenzler from Switzerland.
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And they’re both talking about the same
problem. You know the old Churchill
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saying: “There’s two things you
don’t wanna know exactly, that’s
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how do they make sausages,
and how do they make laws?”.
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Well, actually, you do wanna know
exactly how they make laws!
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Otherwise you find yourself
with a law you don’t want.
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And a sarco enemy can avoid a banger,
but you can’t avoid a law.
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So Thomas here is gonna tell you
about the fight for net neutrality
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in Europe. And let’s have a big
hand for Thomas Lohninger!
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applause
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Thomas: Hello and thank you,
everybody! Good.
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So, let’s dive right in. We have a lot of
ground to cover for the past 3 years
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which have to fit in the next 30 minutes.
So I’m gonna talk fast at the end,
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so that we have a little bit more
time for the outlook in the future.
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The subtitle of this talk is ‘Alea iacta
est’, so ‘the dices have fallen’
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which in fact is not really true.
We now have legislation
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in Europe for the first time, binding
legislation for net neutrality
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in all 28 member states. And this
talk will be about the history
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of this legislation and how civil society
played a huge role in this law.
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But still the law that we have
now is really ambiguous;
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so the fight is not over. There are next
steps to come which will actually give it
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real meaning, and influence what net
neutrality we’ll actually have in Europe.
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A little bit of introduction: So,
net neutrality in principle is
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the universality of the network.
As you see here
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we’re all interconnected
over the network and…
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the basic foundational principles
that boil down in these days
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– in the age of deep packet inspection
and discriminatory pricing –
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net neutrality boils down to
discrimination protection.
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And it’s basically preventing
ISPs to establish
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new discriminatory business models.
This was also the starting point
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for this European legislation called
‘Telecom Civil Market’. It’s a regulation;
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that means it’s directly applicable
in all 28 member states,
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not like a directive. It doesn’t have to
be transposed to national legislation,
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it’s already a law in all 28 countries.
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And the responsible commissioner, back in
September 2013, when it was introduced,
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is this old lady, Neelie Kroes.
Audio/Video playback starts
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Neelie Kroes: It is a fact that we are all
connected or we want to be connected.
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So this package is essential for
Europe’s strategic interests,
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for Europe’s economic progress.
It is absolutely crucial
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for the telecom sector itself.
And, of course, for citizens
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who need full and fair access
to telecom services such as
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internet, and such as mobile services.
Audio/Video playback stops
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Thomas: “Such as internet”…
This is also the spirit of this whole law.
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You have internet, which is kind of
neutral, and then you have other stuff.
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Like specialized services, which you
could basically translate in your head to
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‘net neutrality violation’, or ‘paid
fast lanes’. And if you look
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at the original Commission proposal,
which they put in front of us, they had
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really weird language, like “within
the contract that you enter into
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with your ISP you’re not allowed to
discriminate”. But if the contract states
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that you have discriminatory pricing,
or different speeds for different types
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of applications that would be legal, under
the original Commission proposal.
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The Commission had a 3-fold
strategy: It used the election
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to get the Parliament to adopt
this regulation really fast,
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to put it in a hurry, to rush this
thing through before the elections
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in May 2014. It used a populist
element which was roaming.
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If you have heard any coverage about
this legislation it was probably
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about the roaming part. That Europe
would abolish roaming charges
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which was actually kind of a fuzzy deal.
You will still have Roaming charges
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but you will have different names and
different forms. But that was something
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which made it essential for all
MEPs, for all parliamentarians
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in the European Parliament to
pass this legislation really fast.
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And they used bizarre and complex
language as you’ve just seen:
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the whole regulation was full of that.
And the fourth point is
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that in their language, in the PR
strategy, they were always claiming
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to support net neutrality. We see the
same thing with Guenther Oettinger now,
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the successor of Neelie Kroes, he’s also
saying that he supports net neutrality,
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but in fact he’s doing the opposite.
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So what have we done, once this
regulation was in front of us?
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We started to write amendments
in a wiki. Actually it took us
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only a month to come up with
the first improvements for this text.
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And I also said that I wanted
to give some ‘lessons-learned’.
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The first lesson-to-learn if you want to
influence European policy is: Come early!
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The earlier you are on the table, the
earlier you start talking with officials
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about a subject the more influence
you will have on the process. So
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if you want to influence legislation don’t
look what is in the calendar next month
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– look what is in the calendar in 3 years.
Then you have a good chance
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to really make a difference. And we
had the ‘savetheinternet’ campaign
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which was actually launched here
on that stage, 3 years ago.
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And the talk with Markus
Beckedahl at 30C3.
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And the website basically
followed a simple idea.
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Translate attention into political force.
Give people something to do.
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And provide actionable items – it’s the
second lesson that you can take away
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from that. You have to give
people something to do.
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Otherwise they will not care about
the subject. Otherwise they will
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not get really involved.
They will not feel like they have
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a part in whatever political
issue you wanna raise.
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And emboss these
actionable items actually;
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translate the attention and the will
of the citizens into something
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that’s in front of the officials,
in front of the parliamentarians.
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In our case: calls, faxes,
tweets and emails.
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These were our actionable items; and
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here I also want to thank Michael
Bauer who was the core developer
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of all the contact-your-MEP
tools of savetheinternet
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besides the Pi phone from
laquadraturedenet who sadly deceased
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with a heart attack this year. And…
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applause
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But without him we never would
have made it in such a good time.
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He developed the whole contact
suite in like a week or so.
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He was a really brilliant person.
So the fax thing was really cool.
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We sent around 40,000 faxes to the
parliament[arian]s, 20,000 of which
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were already also received by them. Here
again, I want to thank the ISP Kappa
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who sponsored us all those faxes
for free, for the first round.
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We didn’t have to pay for any of them.
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So third lesson is: be creative.
So faxes were a novel thing,
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It wasn’t done any time before.
And so they were really influential
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because suddenly you would have
a physical token of a citizen’s will
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in the office of the parliamentarian. But
like every creative campaigning idea
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only works once or twice now the
Parliament has switched to
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an electronic fax delivery.
So this idea no longer works.
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At least not so efficiently.
So you have to adopt fast.
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This is the process in the
European Parliament.
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You have these several committees
which all adopt their opinions
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on the legislation. And then the whole
thing goes into the leading committee
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– the Industry Committee in this
case. And then to plenary.
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Here I wanna thank Petra Kammerevert,
German Social Democrat.
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It was like the only MEP that sticked with
us, from the beginning to the end.
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She was really fighting like hell.
And she was one of the good guys.
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One of the bad guys is [Vera] Pilar del
Castillo, the Rapporteur down there,
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in the ITRE committee. As
a Rapporteur she has a lot of power
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over the process of this legislation
in Europe. And she was really
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working against us wherever she could.
And also working against the opinion
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of the European Parliament. So she was not
really negotiating to get the good deal
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that the parliament adopted in plenary
in first reading. She was really working
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to get what the telcos and Telefonica
are wanting. And so in the plenary
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we actually managed to get amendments
through. Before that, it looked quite grim
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but we had those amendments
which got a majority
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and which brought us the victory.
Because this legislation is now passed
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and published in the journal, I’m now
also at liberty to speak a little bit more
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about what is the background
of it. And actually,
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as you have here in this email
from a UK Social Democrat,
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the text came from civil society,
which in fact is true.
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When we drafted this text there were
like 3 things that we had to do.
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We had to fix all loop holes. We had
to change as little as necessary,
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so only minor text changes.
Every word is costly.
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And we couldn’t use any politically
loaded phrases. So we had to come up
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with totally new language. Which
would solve all problems but still
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get a majority which in fact
we managed to achieve.
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There was also a bigger majority…
applause
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So that’s us celebrating
after the victory. And…
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that was big fun. So fourth lesson
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to take away is: Be clear about
your demands with politicians.
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You will not succeed in asking
for stuff that you will not…
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that is impossible for the politician.
You have to ask for something
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which is realistic. And in their eyes
getting a good text in first reading
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was realistic. But there were many
formality arguments in second reading.
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Which worked against us, and
at the end broke our necks.
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One was that the parliament is
not really emancipated from
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the other institutions. Council has much
more power. So the member states
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really can make demands and draw red lines
that the parliament is not really willing
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to step over. And ‘second reading’ also
means that you need an absolute majority
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for any amendment. Not just a simple
majority. So half of all MEPs
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and not just those who
are present at the vote.
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But it’s not all just the first reading:
here you have a basic idea of
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how laws are adopted in the European
Union. With the Commission on top,
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the Parliament at the left and the member
states in the Council on the right.
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And we had savetheinternet
campaigns for all of those steps.
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And basically when the Commission adopted
their proposal that was of course
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anti net neutrality at its best.
The Parliament fixed it,
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the Council reverted it and really came
up with a text that was partly even worse
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than what the Commission
originally wanted.
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And then those 3 institutions sat
together in the most intransparent way
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you could imagine… and came
together and made a new text.
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And the agreement here, in trialub (?),
that was actually reached
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at 2 AM with everybody almost
asleep, everybody like:
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“Okay, let’s fix this, let’s fix this…”.
And the Liberals,
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the Greens, the Left, all of them were
already out of the room. They were saying:
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“Okay, no deal, we’ll continue
after the summer break,
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let’s just not continue any
more discussion!” And then
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the negotiator from the Social Democrats,
Patricia Toia, she was already standing
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in the doorway with her
handbag in her hand.
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And then she agreed to this proposal.
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Because the Conservatives gave her some
concessions on Roaming, then she agreed,
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to the shitty net neutrality. So that’s
it actually what it boils down to,
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at some stages. And it was [Pilar del]
Castillo who was driving this compromise.
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So we had a really bad text
which was on the table.
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And agreed between all 3 institutions.
But then it would still need
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to go through Parliament.
And we had to ask ourselves
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over the summer break: “Is this text
worse than useless?” Should we really
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fight for amendments, or
should we fight for deletion?
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This was a huge argument
within the savetheinternet coalition.
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And even I was sympathetic
with both sides.
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But at the end we thought
this text is better than
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e.g. what the US had in their first
net neutrality law. And therefor
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it’s worth fighting. Because maybe there
are countries, like Austria, like Germany,
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like the Netherlands that have or
would adopt good legislation.
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But many other countries would not.
And so, in the sense of the European Union
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we thought: “Better have this compromise
for 28 instead of just a few good laws.”
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And then something really magical
happened. Because finally we got support
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from the US. We had Barbara van
Schewick, the world’s leading expert
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and scientist on net neutrality
speaking out in support for us.
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So did Lawrence Lessig, so
did Sir Tim Berners-Lee, and
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many other supporters. And we also had
companies getting involved, start-ups
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and big internet companies like Wordpress.
And we also had venture capitalists
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that urged the parliamentarians to
really adopt these amendments,
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make this a clear legislation. Because
otherwise they would stop investing
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into European start-ups. Because I would
not get money into a business model
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which might not work in a few months.
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And also in Germany we had big
support from the media authorities,
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the Landesmedienanstalten, and the
Association of German Journalists.
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Many others. But really, what we
didn’t do here, we didn’t come early.
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This was all a last-minute action. The
real traction this whole thing gained
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one week before the final vote!
And that was too late.
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If we could have had this traction,
this media coverage beforehand
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then it might have turned out differently.
But what you can take away from that is
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that we have to broaden our movement.
That we really have to go
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out of the net political nerd bubble.
We have to reach other people.
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Digital rights issues are
broad civil society issues.
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And we have to treat them as such.
Go to the churches. Go to the journalists.
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Go to whomever is willing to listen, and
make your cause, and broaden the movement.
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And we had really creative
actions like here in Barcelona.
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Our member Xnet had this nice projection
on the building of Telefonica.
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But at the end it didn’t work. We
failed in Second Reading. And I have
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to speed up a little bit and explain you
why this is not the end of net neutrality.
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I know this was in the media quite
heavily. And if you look at it binarily,
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of course this is a loss for us because
we campaigned for amendments
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and we did not succeed. But still
the text it’s now on the table.
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The biggest problem
is that it’s ambiguous.
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But it has some good parts in it. And one
word of advice: you have to keep in mind
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that the US also needed two
approaches to get this right.
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The first net neutrality laws were
even worse than what we have now.
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There is clarity that this is now
applicable – not only to fixed line
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but also to mobile internet. And at least
we’ll see no longer commercial blocking
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in Europe. You could still have state
blocking, so like censorship lists
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from any public authority. But
you could not e.g. block Skype
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if you are a mobile operator and want
people corner into using your own roaming.
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There is intentional ambiguity, and all
the big questions about net neutrality and
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paid fast lanes. And so the real decision
is now left to the unelected regulators.
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And to the unelected judges. We
most certainly expect court cases
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in front of the European High Court.
And this means huge legal uncertainty.
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Which is really bad. Not only for
citizens but also for business.
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So there are 4 big subjects
we have to cover.
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That are still in the debate now with the
European regulator that’s now tasked with
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giving this law actual meaning.
Specialized services…
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as I said you could translate it in
your head with ‘paid fast lanes’
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and ‘not net neutrality’ or with ‘those
services that really have nothing to do
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with the internet’. That has to be our
goal here. There are 5 safeguards
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in the regulation that we have to apply
right and then we can still achieve
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that goal. But the regulators… like
these are the 28 organizations
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in Europe that are tasked with
regulating the telecom markets.
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They are not doing anything else than
reading laws and applying them
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on the market. And that’s one of the
questions they asked us in the hearing.
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So would it be okay to have internet
services as specialized services?
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And you can see how really vague and
ambiguous this law is, if this is
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the basic question that they’re asking us.
Similarly with zero rating, the practice
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of commercial discrimination. If some
data packages cost more than others.
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Again, we have some sort
of safeguard here.
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But ‘commercial practices’ is the corner
word here. Because zero rating
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is not mentioned in the whole legislation.
‘Commercial practices’ – and that’s
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the funny part. They’re asking us
– the regulators asking civil society –
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what in our understanding ‘commercial
practices’ actually means. And
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from our perspective there are 2 ways of
seeing it. Either it means ‘zero rating’
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in which case it has to be prohibited. Or
it means anything else in which case
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e.g. it could mean ‘interconnection’.
That applies perfectly to the legislation.
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But in that case this whole topic would
be left for national legislation.
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So the Dutch net neutrality law
could still outlaw zero rating,
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or Germany could adopt a new law
which would prohibit that practice.
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A very important point which was
sadly not so much discussed
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is traffic management. There is
a risk that ISPs could introduce
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a class based CIF system to manage
congestion, e.g. That would look like:
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“Okay, we have all video streaming
applications in one class
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and we prioritize them. But we don’t
prioritize telephony applications,
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because although they also are
delay-sensitive they are
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against our own business models, and
therefor we are not prioritizing them.”
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Class-based traffic management has another
big problem. And you can look at the UK
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where this is a common practice.
If you want to throttle file-sharing
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and you have some gaming applications
that look similar like file-sharing
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you could end up with
throttled gaming applications
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which make the games unusable.
And so in the UK you have now
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standing committees between game
developers and ISPs like Plusnet
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and before they have a rollout of a new
game they have to sit down and agree
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on the technical characteristics,
so that the game actually works
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in the British internet. And this is
the total opposite of innovation
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without permission.
And from our understanding
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traffic management always has to be
as application agnostic as possible.
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So: only look at the header, don’t
look in the contents of the package,
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don’t make any differentiation
between applications or services.
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And there’s also a problem: If you
look at the content, if you want
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to treat encrypted traffic differently
there is a risk that all encrypted traffic
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could end up in the slow lane.
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In principle this is what we want to
achieve. Be as application agnostic
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00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,950
as possible and then only allow
traffic management based
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on technical characteristics where it is
really necessary and proportionate
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and you cannot solve the problem
in any other way. And then only
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if this is not sufficient you could
resert to a class-based system.
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Transparency – we will see
some big change here
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when it comes to advertised
and real speeds of internet.
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So if this regulation enters into force
and if the transparency provisions
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are applied correctly you will no
longer have just up to a certain
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Megabyte [per second] of internet; instead
you will have a minimum, an average
295
00:21:08,910 --> 00:21:12,220
and a maximum bandwidth which
has to be stated in the contract. So
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more accurate information
for consumers. Now,
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this is the organization that is now
tasked with making actual sense
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00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:26,560
out of this legislation. So this is the
umbrella of all 28 regulatory authorities
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in Europe. Like Bundesnetzagentur
in Germany, or RTR in Austria.
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All those come together under
the umbrella of BEREC; and
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they now have until the end of
august, according to the regulation,
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to come up with actual guidelines
that give this text real meaning.
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00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:47,570
And if we look at the timeline this
is basically our work programme
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00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:50,920
which we’ll have to fill with life.
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00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,380
The parliament adopted the
regulation in October; and
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it was published in the journal on
November 26 which gives us the 9 months
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00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:03,180
of time we now have. And there
was a stakeholder hearing
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00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:07,220
from civil society; I could
participate for EDRI; and
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00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:11,210
we basically sat down with the regulators
and gave them our interpretation
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of the text. But just so did also the
content application providers
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like the public broadcasters,
or internet companies;
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00:22:18,650 --> 00:22:22,070
and so did the telecom industry. So
now they have to strike a balance
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00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:25,520
between those 3 stakeholder groups.
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00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,800
We’re now at a point where the working
groups are drafting the guidelines.
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00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,050
Really weird fact: the whole
regulation will enter into force
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00:22:35,050 --> 00:22:38,630
at the end of April. Although the
guidelines are not applicable there.
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00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:41,220
And nobody could answer the
question what this actually means
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if there would be a case, in this
period between April and August.
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So this working draft will
then be voted in plenary
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at the end of June, and then we’ll
have 20 days of public consultation.
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You’ll have 20 days to say
what you think about
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the new net neutrality in Europe.
Which is ridiculous. And then they have
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00:23:02,110 --> 00:23:06,640
roughly a little bit less than two months
to analyze all this feedback,
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00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,450
and to redraft the guidelines.
So the more feedback they receive
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00:23:10,450 --> 00:23:14,810
the fewer time they’ll have to actually
redraft the whole thing before it’s
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00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:18,330
finally voted in the extraordinary
plenary within BEREC.
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00:23:18,330 --> 00:23:23,500
So that it can be published.
So let’s focus on those 20 days.
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00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:28,750
In the US we had several months of
consultation and 4 Mio. comments.
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00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:34,370
In India it was 28 days.
Still 1 Mio. comments.
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00:23:34,370 --> 00:23:36,970
And they are continuing. They all have
another consultation up and running
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right now. And now in
Europe we have 20 days.
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So this is the comparison that we face.
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00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:47,700
And this also means for European
civil society and all those people
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who care about the internet – this is the
time line, and this is the opportunity
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00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:56,270
that we have. We can look at the US.
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This is an analysis of the comments
that were given to the FCC
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00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:04,390
when they first asked for
opinions about net neutrality.
338
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:10,550
And there is now a huge collection
of scientific papers,
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00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:14,870
visualizations and everything
about this huge record
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00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:18,690
about the topic of net neutrality.
So you can see that there are
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00:24:18,690 --> 00:24:22,251
so many issues that – also organically –
that people commented [on].
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00:24:22,251 --> 00:24:26,930
You have very few templates in here.
So out of these 4 Mio. comments
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00:24:26,930 --> 00:24:31,590
many of them are actually people sitting
down, writing in their own words
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00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:35,380
what they think about the subject.
How it would influence their business.
345
00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:39,371
How it would influence their education.
How it would influence the network
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00:24:39,371 --> 00:24:42,960
that they are running. And you
have many interesting stuff like
347
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,420
“you need net neutrality
for the American Dream”.
348
00:24:48,420 --> 00:24:51,930
And the idea behind that is also a
“maybe we can take some advice
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from the US, here, for Europe”.
That America is America
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00:24:56,030 --> 00:25:00,660
because you can connect to different
opinions. At the core of net neutrality
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00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:04,980
you have the equality of the network.
And this was preserved here
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00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:09,520
with the new rules in the US; and we
should really take advice on that.
353
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,270
And that’s also why we as
savetheinternet coalition
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00:25:14,270 --> 00:25:17,440
will come up with a new version
of the website. That will
355
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,860
support the consultation and
extend it, not just in the 20 days
356
00:25:20,860 --> 00:25:25,680
but for a longer time period. So that
more of you have the opportunity
357
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,350
to have an actionable item, to do
something for this legislation.
358
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:33,770
And to really have your say.
359
00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:38,000
In the remaining time I would like
to step a little bit out of Europe
360
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and follow the motto
of this year’s Congress,
361
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and look a bit at the global issue.
362
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,870
You see now there’s… many
legislation are actually discussed
363
00:25:51,870 --> 00:25:56,321
or already in place. It varies greatly
in the amount of safeguard
364
00:25:56,321 --> 00:26:02,560
that it provides for citizens. And thanks
to Andre Meister from netzpolitik.org
365
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,390
we have a little collection of all the
billboards and advertisements
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00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:10,770
in Latin America about zero rating.
So let’s have a look how this is
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00:26:10,770 --> 00:26:14,520
seen in Peru, in Chile and other
countries. You have here
368
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,000
free social networking which
is huge advertisement donors.
369
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,740
And you have full internet
with this websites.
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00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:27,790
And we’re not speaking about nerdy stuff.
This is like a selling proposition,
371
00:26:27,790 --> 00:26:33,670
that you can have these services for free,
therefor buy my SIMCard, buy my internet.
372
00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:37,440
And it goes on and on like that. But it
373
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,430
gets really ugly if you look at
what’s happening in India right now.
374
00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:45,350
Facebook has this program called
internet.org which is basically
375
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:50,050
a gated community which gives
poor people without any access
376
00:26:50,050 --> 00:26:55,210
to the internet just access to
Facebook and a few other sites.
377
00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:58,650
And Facebook is now on the
offensive. They are asking citizens
378
00:26:58,650 --> 00:27:03,310
to lobby the regulator
against net neutrality.
379
00:27:03,310 --> 00:27:06,720
They’re really challenged in that, and
you could see that Facebook was
380
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,940
fast responding because
the public pressure in India
381
00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:16,230
amounted to companies, and
telecom actors and also politicians
382
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:21,250
publicly denouncing this
program. I can only quote
383
00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:26,090
one of the founders of
savetheinternet.in, Nikhil Baba.
384
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:29,910
He said yesterday that the only question
that he would ask Mark Zuckerberg
385
00:27:29,910 --> 00:27:35,140
who is always on the forefront
to defend his program:
386
00:27:35,140 --> 00:27:39,220
“Why is he just giving
these free basic services
387
00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:42,410
with just a few selected hundred sites
388
00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:46,350
instead of giving them the whole
access to the internet?”. If you give
389
00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:50,380
the bandwidth that’s reserved for these
programs just freely to everybody
390
00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:54,480
so that they can use them in whatever
way they want you would achieve
391
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,730
exactly the same commercial
interest for the telecom providers.
392
00:27:58,730 --> 00:28:04,340
And there are similar programs from
Mozilla and also from other Indian ISPs
393
00:28:04,340 --> 00:28:09,300
that just give people 3 months
of a few megabytes
394
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:12,030
to get them hooked on the
internet. If this is just the idea
395
00:28:12,030 --> 00:28:16,800
to bridge the digital gap by getting
people some sense of our internet
396
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,390
that could be easily done by that way.
397
00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:25,230
We have to look at the challenges for
the global net neutrality movement.
398
00:28:25,230 --> 00:28:30,170
This issue is far from just
a Western debate right now.
399
00:28:30,170 --> 00:28:34,050
And we always have been wondering in the
Digital Rights movement how it would be
400
00:28:34,050 --> 00:28:37,930
if Google or Facebook would be
on the other side of our debate.
401
00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:41,590
If they really would fight against us.
We can look at the global south.
402
00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:45,030
It’s first happening there. So
403
00:28:45,030 --> 00:28:49,160
that’s the end of my talk and also
my time. I want to thank you.
404
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,970
I want to urge you to keep fighting;
net neutrality is not lost in Europe.
405
00:28:52,970 --> 00:28:56,020
It’s more like we now have
a really ambiguous law.
406
00:28:56,020 --> 00:29:00,820
The responsibility lies now with the
regulators. So we are in a way
407
00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:05,400
at a point where the US was in 2014. And
now we have to do a similar mobilization.
408
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,000
We have to do a similar form
of argumentation to get it right.
409
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,870
And savetheinternet is
a coalition of 12 NGOs,
410
00:29:15,870 --> 00:29:20,530
and we don’t have one fixed hub, but
there is a lot of development going on
411
00:29:20,530 --> 00:29:25,700
in Austria. And we’ll also have a workshop
today at 6 PM at the EDRI assembly
412
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:31,471
at Noisy Square. If you want to get
involved, if you have a special interest,
413
00:29:31,471 --> 00:29:36,650
a business, or are an ISP, then
please participate in this workshop
414
00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:40,470
to get the new savetheinternet
as best as we can. Thank you!
415
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:52,430
applause
416
00:29:52,430 --> 00:29:55,090
Herald: Okay, we gonna do something
unorthodox today. We gonna have
417
00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:59,460
the next talk right onto this one.
Please – flying change of people
418
00:29:59,460 --> 00:30:03,460
who wanna come and leave! Because
the two talks are related we’ll have
419
00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:07,400
Ten minutes of Q&A after the next talk.
420
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,370
So here’s – das ist jetzt eine
Schwietzer Angelegenheit –
421
00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:15,320
this is the gentleman from
Switzerland, Fredy Kuenzler!
422
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,460
Fredy: He speaks Fribourg dialect!
laughter
423
00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:25,260
Can you believe that? Fribourg –
and pretty good actually!
424
00:30:25,260 --> 00:30:30,000
Herald: We both agree that buffering
sucks, so please, let me have a hand
425
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,150
for – Fredy Kuenzler!
applause
426
00:30:32,150 --> 00:30:40,530
applause
427
00:30:40,530 --> 00:30:44,910
Fredy Kuenzler: Thank you! My name
is Fredy Kuenzler. Gruetzi mitanand’!
428
00:30:44,910 --> 00:30:50,620
I was thinking whether to have the
talk in Swiss German or in English…
429
00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:52,660
Herald: Sorry, excuse me for a moment -
Fredy: Never mind.
430
00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:57,240
Herald: This is unorthodo… when you
leave, please leave in peace, and quiet.
431
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,520
Okay? And give him a chance.
Fredy: laughs
432
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,920
So Swiss German would be an option for me.
433
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:10,510
English, because you know the
Swiss don’t speak proper German.
434
00:31:10,510 --> 00:31:18,830
My six year old digital native
435
00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:23,420
is telling people rather proud that his
Dad invented the fastest internet
436
00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:26,690
in Switzerland. It’s called Fiber7.
437
00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:31,630
applause
Thank you.
438
00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:36,280
While we went to Greece for vacation,
I was in a target conflict,
439
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:42,370
because I had to explain him
why he couldn’t watch YouTube.
440
00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:47,200
I mean Greece, you know
it’s maybe a bit difficult,
441
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,550
but as a matter of fact, here
in Hamburg it’s not any better.
442
00:31:51,550 --> 00:31:58,020
I’m next door in the hotel InterCity
and they offer “free Wi-Fi”
443
00:31:58,020 --> 00:32:02,290
with 256 kbit/s.
laughter
444
00:32:02,290 --> 00:32:07,950
If you want 5 Mbit internet,
you pay 8 Euros extra,
445
00:32:07,950 --> 00:32:13,690
per day. So this is where we are in 2015.
446
00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:18,060
A few words about me: I’m
married, one son as I said.
447
00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:23,640
He was born 2009. He was
able to unlock the iPhone
448
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,900
with the age of 17 months.
No one showed him how.
449
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:31,150
laughter and mumbling
450
00:32:31,150 --> 00:32:35,470
My early connection
with digital techniques
451
00:32:35,470 --> 00:32:41,980
was about 1978 when I was
playing with these chips 7400.
452
00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:47,190
Who knows them? Raise
your hand. – Few, thanks.
453
00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:53,090
Later on I did an apprenticeship as a
Fernmelde- und Elektronikapparatemonteur.
454
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:59,500
And I started to do
IT business about 1991.
455
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:05,080
Then 1996 – almost 20 years ago –
we started with Linux stuff.
456
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,800
My first Linux was Suse 4.2.
457
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,410
In the year 2000 we started with Init7
and later on I became president
458
00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:20,500
of the SwissIX association.
This is an association
459
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:26,040
which runs an Internet Exchange. I had
also my time in a startup called Zattoo.
460
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,250
It’s a network architecture
OTT IP Television.
461
00:33:31,250 --> 00:33:36,360
Besides, I need a hobby, so I’m also
a politician for the Social Democrats
462
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:41,370
in my city parliament, already 8 years.
463
00:33:41,370 --> 00:33:45,600
Then I started with the other
hobby, Fiber7 as you know.
464
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,280
Oh besides, I was also working
in an internet expert group
465
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,340
of the Social Democrats Switzerland.
There the internet paper
466
00:33:55,340 --> 00:34:01,140
was adopted earlier this month
467
00:34:01,140 --> 00:34:06,710
by the national Delegiertenversammlung.
I don’t know what this is in English.
468
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:12,690
So, Buffering sucks! Ladies and Gentlemen,
this talk is not about Deutsche Telekom.
469
00:34:12,690 --> 00:34:18,490
It’s not about peering. It’s not about
interconnection. It’s about these
470
00:34:18,490 --> 00:34:24,580
thousands and millions of youngsters out
there which want to watch YouTube
471
00:34:24,580 --> 00:34:28,810
in HD resolution without buffering.
472
00:34:28,810 --> 00:34:35,389
So let’s quickly look at the reason why
YouTube and all the other video buffer.
473
00:34:35,389 --> 00:34:40,668
It’s usually lack of bandwidth.
If you have a 2 Meg DSL
474
00:34:40,668 --> 00:34:47,909
or if you have an InterCity
free Wi-Fi with 250 kilobits;
475
00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:55,409
so HD video is not possible.
Sometimes they have old PCs,
476
00:34:55,409 --> 00:34:59,400
so CPU power is an issue –
these days no longer relevant.
477
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,900
Wi-Fi quality sucks sometimes.
This is rather an individual issue.
478
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:08,010
And sometimes we have an over-subscription
479
00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:13,010
of the shared node –
mainly in cable networks.
480
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:16,860
Streaming source can be too far
away. If you stream from the U.S.,
481
00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:22,860
it doesn’t really go well.
That’s why we have so many CDN,
482
00:35:22,860 --> 00:35:28,650
Content Delivery Network systems,
close to the end users.
483
00:35:28,650 --> 00:35:32,290
Then adaptive streaming
can be an advantage,
484
00:35:32,290 --> 00:35:37,460
but also disadvantage. You cannot
turn it off. When you watch HD
485
00:35:37,460 --> 00:35:42,190
and the connection sucks
you just cannot keep it on HD.
486
00:35:42,190 --> 00:35:48,240
It just drops to SD or lower
resolution. It works, yes.
487
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:54,250
But Claire Underwood in
low-res is not so cool.
488
00:35:54,250 --> 00:35:58,810
Routing algorithm issues – sometimes
it’s a mismatch of client and server.
489
00:35:58,810 --> 00:36:04,340
If your client is assigned to the
wrong CDN server, then it’s also slow.
490
00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:08,340
Anycast routing is a trick sometimes.
And, last but not least
491
00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:15,270
and the most important thing:
It’s over-subscribed interconnections.
492
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:20,020
We go back quickly to the
old days. The caller pays.
493
00:36:20,020 --> 00:36:25,089
When you call your mother-in-law
and you talk with her
494
00:36:25,089 --> 00:36:30,900
– well, she talks to you for 45 minutes
and you say hello and goodbye –
495
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:36,550
you still pay the call.
laughter
496
00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:41,470
So with YouTube it’s not any different.
497
00:36:41,470 --> 00:36:47,070
You click YouTube and then YouTube
talks to you for hours maybe
498
00:36:47,070 --> 00:36:52,340
and then you say goodbye, basically.
So is the broadband customer
499
00:36:52,340 --> 00:36:57,270
calling the YouTube server or is it vice
versa? Is the YouTube server calling
500
00:36:57,270 --> 00:37:03,630
the broadband customer? Probably
it’s the broadband customer who calls.
501
00:37:03,630 --> 00:37:08,930
But still the data is flowing
from the server to the client.
502
00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:13,970
But the client is causing the traffic,
because he is requesting the traffic.
503
00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:22,670
And if we look at the structure of
the internet, we have basically…
504
00:37:22,670 --> 00:37:28,200
(doesn’t work here, red
button is dead, never mind!)
505
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,770
…we have the end user to the right.
506
00:37:31,770 --> 00:37:35,130
We have – here is the provider network
507
00:37:35,130 --> 00:37:41,130
and the end user is only connected
to the provider’s network.
508
00:37:41,130 --> 00:37:46,250
On the left side we have all the content
in the internet. We have the media
509
00:37:46,250 --> 00:37:52,220
and video and streaming
and Torrent and… you name it.
510
00:37:52,220 --> 00:37:59,870
But there is always only one
way going to the end user.
511
00:37:59,870 --> 00:38:08,620
It’s the yellow marked interconnection
points and there is no way around them.
512
00:38:08,620 --> 00:38:17,000
This basically means, the provider
can monopolize the end customer.
513
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,560
At least as long [as] he is
connected or subscribed.
514
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,100
There is no alternative way.
515
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:31,210
So this gives the provider
516
00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:34,720
a position of power.
517
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,120
On the other hand these
interconnection points used to be
518
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:44,040
– for a long period of time – so called
Zero Settlement interconnections,
519
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,930
and they are basically the
foundation of the internet.
520
00:38:47,930 --> 00:38:51,630
Without Zero Settlement peering,
without interconnection
521
00:38:51,630 --> 00:38:56,160
the internet wouldn’t exist as we know it.
522
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,430
The broadband provider,
mainly the incumbent,
523
00:39:00,430 --> 00:39:03,910
the ex-monopolist,
or large cable operators,
524
00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:07,240
they tend to become more
and more restrictive
525
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:12,210
to provide sufficient
interconnection capacity.
526
00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:16,330
Not upgrading interconnection
to the requirements
527
00:39:16,330 --> 00:39:23,590
is very common these days and
it’s a passive aggressive behaviour.
528
00:39:23,590 --> 00:39:31,080
So many providers – to name
a few: Deutsche Telekom –
529
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,040
they just do nothing. They just wait.
530
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,480
And the end customers are suffering.
Buffering is very common, especially
531
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:43,950
during prime-time.
This is basically what the topic of…
532
00:39:43,950 --> 00:39:48,620
…the main topic of this conference is:
It’s a gated community. The provider
533
00:39:48,620 --> 00:39:57,010
creates a gated community
for his own end customers.
534
00:39:57,010 --> 00:40:01,140
So as I said before:
535
00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:05,520
The data is flowing from the server,
from the video server to the end customer.
536
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,660
It’s about 50 times more
traffic flowing to the client
537
00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:15,740
and the usual traffic ratio we have
538
00:40:15,740 --> 00:40:20,580
for a broadband provider is 1:5
or 1:10. So they’re pulling about
539
00:40:20,580 --> 00:40:26,060
10 times more traffic
towards the end customer.
540
00:40:26,060 --> 00:40:32,290
Then we have this interconnection
policy. So they don’t do anything.
541
00:40:32,290 --> 00:40:37,360
As I said before, they just over-subscribe
542
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:43,010
the existing interconnection.
And if you want to upgrade you have to
543
00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:48,010
have a traffic ratio of
about 1:1.5 to 1.3.
544
00:40:48,010 --> 00:40:53,760
But no video stream service
can deliver traffic
545
00:40:53,760 --> 00:41:00,000
and also maintain the traffic ratio.
No content provider can.
546
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,290
So all they can do is: They can
pay money to get upgraded.
547
00:41:04,290 --> 00:41:08,810
And if they don’t pay,
data is stuck in congestion
548
00:41:08,810 --> 00:41:18,530
and their clients are suffering,
seeing the buffering sign.
549
00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:22,810
Large broadband providers, such as
the incumbents and cable providers,
550
00:41:22,810 --> 00:41:28,860
they want to get paid twice.
They are able to force the money
551
00:41:28,860 --> 00:41:32,980
due to the temporary
monopoly – as I explained.
552
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:36,860
And they can ask money from the end
customer and on the other hand
553
00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:40,450
also from the content.
554
00:41:40,450 --> 00:41:44,190
This is called double-sided market.
And if they don’t pay,
555
00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:49,750
the content is not paying, this is what we
see. And sometimes – as a side note –
556
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:55,470
the end customer pays,
but still sees this.
557
00:41:55,470 --> 00:41:59,540
But IP interconnection would be cheap.
558
00:41:59,540 --> 00:42:04,030
The business cost per broadband
customer is just a few cents per month.
559
00:42:04,030 --> 00:42:10,220
And if the provider would invest
this, people would be happy.
560
00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:17,170
On top content providers are easy to deal
for peering or provide cache servers etc.
561
00:42:17,170 --> 00:42:23,620
So please talk to our community
fellows of Akamai, Apple,
562
00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:28,800
Amazon, Facebook, Google,
Limelight, Netflix.
563
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:36,110
T is not Telekom, it’s Twitch.
And Zattoo, and a lot of others.
564
00:42:36,110 --> 00:42:40,280
So traffic congestion is costly.
565
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,280
I took a random Google
search and was looking for
566
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:51,270
how much traffic is actually costing.
And “Die Welt” showed the result:
567
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:59,780
“Staus kosten in jedem
Haushalt 509€/Jahr”.
568
00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:05,310
So my assumption was:
If traffic jam is costing money,
569
00:43:05,310 --> 00:43:09,120
then probably data traffic jam
is also costing some money.
570
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:19,140
But I figured that no one was
really exploring that field, yet.
571
00:43:19,140 --> 00:43:22,960
So I thought I’m going to do
a little “Milchbüechlirächnig”
572
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,430
laughter
573
00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:31,530
applause
574
00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:37,600
When I was a child, the milk man came
every morning and we just put our order
575
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:43,330
into the Milchbüechli and he put the milk
into the box outside of the house.
576
00:43:43,330 --> 00:43:51,130
By the end of the month, we went to the
shop and paid our Milchbüechlirächnig.
577
00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:55,210
So this is my quick calculation: We have
about 30 million broadband connections
578
00:43:55,210 --> 00:44:03,150
in Germany. I assume that everybody is
waiting for one minute accumulated
579
00:44:03,150 --> 00:44:07,360
while watching Netflix, YouTube,
whatever. Probably this is far too less.
580
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:13,030
Who thinks one minute is fine, or –
who thinks one minute is not enough?
581
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:18,700
Oh, ok, so let’s stick with one
minute for the calculation.
582
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:23,150
And I also assumed that 5€ / hour waiting
583
00:44:23,150 --> 00:44:30,490
is a good salary. So if you
think, 5€ is not enough,
584
00:44:30,490 --> 00:44:35,300
you can adapt the calculation.
This is called “Reservationslohn”.
585
00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:39,850
I have no clue what it means,
but this was on Wikipedia,
586
00:44:39,850 --> 00:44:43,750
for time when you take
a job or refuse a job,
587
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:48,900
how much would be the
value for the spare time.
588
00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:54,540
So this is my calculation: If you wait one
minute per day, this is 6 hours per year.
589
00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:58,770
If you multiply this with the 5€,
590
00:44:58,770 --> 00:45:09,520
every broadband customer
would lose 30€ per year.
591
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,950
This sums up
– with 30 million broadband subscribers -
592
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:24,130
to 900 million Euros per year. This is the
economic damage in Germany per year.
593
00:45:24,130 --> 00:45:30,810
applause
594
00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:36,030
As we can assume that a large
part of the buffering is caused
595
00:45:36,030 --> 00:45:39,480
by the insufficient interconnection,
especially during prime-time
596
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,230
when everybody wants to watch
Netflix. This is also a result
597
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:51,240
of the restrictive peering policy of the
incumbent and large cable operators
598
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:55,440
and the ability for them to
force some extra money
599
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,560
out of these double sided
market power as I explained.
600
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,800
They probably would gain a few
millions. I don’t have exact figures
601
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,110
but I assume it’s probably
some 10..20..30 millions per year,
602
00:46:09,110 --> 00:46:15,530
they could force through
this market power.
603
00:46:15,530 --> 00:46:19,930
On the other hand we have the damage
of 900 Million Euro per year and I mean
604
00:46:19,930 --> 00:46:27,550
this is like a – how do you
say that? – Imbalance.
605
00:46:27,550 --> 00:46:32,200
So my conclusion in democratic
countries like [in] Western Europe:
606
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,320
The economic gain of a multibillion
company at the expense
607
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:42,460
of the general public is
commonly not tolerated.
608
00:46:42,460 --> 00:46:47,940
The next question is basically following
the previous talk of Thomas:
609
00:46:47,940 --> 00:46:52,590
When will the regulators wake up
and force every market participant
610
00:46:52,590 --> 00:46:58,080
to cooperative peering and interconnection
because the end user is suffering,
611
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,930
the public is suffering.
Zero Settlement peering – as I explained -
612
00:47:01,930 --> 00:47:06,770
is rather common.
Of course the incumbent,
613
00:47:06,770 --> 00:47:11,550
the Deutsche Telekom lobbyists
would tell otherwise, this is clear.
614
00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:16,290
The unbalanced traffic should no
longer be used to refuse peering;
615
00:47:16,290 --> 00:47:20,730
and also disputes about the
interconnection should be resolved
616
00:47:20,730 --> 00:47:28,300
rather quick. My case against
Swisscom is taking years already
617
00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:31,840
and still no end… no light
at the end of the tunnel.
618
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,250
Then, last but not least we should
have broadband providers…
619
00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:48,490
must be committed to the interests
of their own end user customer base.
620
00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:54,510
As I said, Telekom managed to get paid
twice because of their market power;
621
00:47:54,510 --> 00:47:59,040
and other Telecoms, such as
Telecom Hungaria or Swisscom,
622
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:04,590
they use Deutsche Telekom and
their market power as a leverage
623
00:48:04,590 --> 00:48:09,060
to force their also
restrictive peering policy;
624
00:48:09,060 --> 00:48:12,820
and the regulators so far don’t do
much. I quote here Marc Furrer,
625
00:48:12,820 --> 00:48:18,010
this is the chief of ComCom Switzerland:
“Nur ein fauler Regulator
626
00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:21,740
ist ein guter Regulator”.
laughing
627
00:48:21,740 --> 00:48:31,710
Thank you! Questions?
applause
628
00:48:31,710 --> 00:48:37,280
Herald: Okay, thank you Fredy; and
let’s have Thomas back up on stage
629
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,850
and we’re gonna take questions, please.
630
00:48:40,850 --> 00:48:44,470
There is actually more than the
[number of] mics I said before,
631
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:49,490
there is two right up on the top
and there is three in each aisle.
632
00:48:49,490 --> 00:48:53,840
So if you please line up if you have
any questions to ask; and please
633
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,250
speak into the mic, we need
your questions on tape,
634
00:48:58,250 --> 00:49:03,120
and those who are leaving
now: Do it silently please.
635
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:10,300
Okay, first question, over there!
636
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:14,940
Question: I have a question for
Thomas: From your talk it sounds
637
00:49:14,940 --> 00:49:18,600
like you did a lot of work. Can you
tell us a little bit about the budgeting,
638
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,200
that goes into having a team like that?
639
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,410
T: Yeah, so, SaveTheInternet
is a coalition of 12 NGOs
640
00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:31,910
which have all their independent
budget. There is no fixed budget
641
00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:35,940
for the work that we have
been doing as a whole.
642
00:49:35,940 --> 00:49:39,711
All of them have transparency
reports. So I can not really speak
643
00:49:39,711 --> 00:49:46,850
for the budget of EDRI or accessnow. The
organization where I am based in Austria
644
00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:52,230
got a grant from the media democracy
foundation from 10.000€;
645
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:57,370
and money from Netflix, 10.000€ also.
646
00:49:57,370 --> 00:50:00,701
And we used both for development
and paying for the faxes. Because
647
00:50:00,701 --> 00:50:04,940
in the second round of the fax tool
the provider that it was referring to
648
00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:08,210
was no longer paying.
649
00:50:08,210 --> 00:50:13,780
Otherwise the funding in general about
Digital Rights in Europe is awfully low.
650
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:18,470
So if you compare it to the U.S.
where you had double-digit millions
651
00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:23,619
going into the lobbying it is
ridiculous what resources we have
652
00:50:23,619 --> 00:50:28,800
here in Europe; and we are thinking
about making a donation tool
653
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,070
for the new SaveTheInternet;
but again, that’s complicated
654
00:50:33,070 --> 00:50:37,740
because you have 12 NGOs with
very different activity scales.
655
00:50:37,740 --> 00:50:41,280
Like some of them do a lot, others
not so much. So how would you divide
656
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,180
the money? These are unresolved questions,
that we are working on right now.
657
00:50:45,180 --> 00:50:48,700
If you wanna support us with independent
funding, then just donate to
658
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:55,480
the individual organizations.
EDRI, Initiative für Netzfreiheit,
659
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,890
are probably the ones I would mention
most, because they have done
660
00:50:58,890 --> 00:51:02,540
most of the work; accessnow as well,
but they generally have a lot of funding
661
00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:04,700
from the U.S., so I don’t think
they need it that much.
662
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:08,282
Q: But to summarize, I saw a picture of
your team. I saw all the work you did.
663
00:51:08,282 --> 00:51:13,650
You did that for 20.000€?
T: No. I never got a Cent.
664
00:51:13,650 --> 00:51:17,310
I was paid by EDRI for 4 months
when I was working in Brussels
665
00:51:17,310 --> 00:51:20,880
within BEREC for the first reading;
but otherwise this was mostly free time.
666
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,770
I got my expenses covered for travel
but other than that I am doing this
667
00:51:25,770 --> 00:51:36,530
in my spare time. Also now I’m employed…
applause
668
00:51:36,530 --> 00:51:39,410
…I work for Data Protection NGOs,
so they are allowing me to do
669
00:51:39,410 --> 00:51:43,260
a lot of my stuff also for Net Neutrality.
670
00:51:43,260 --> 00:51:48,690
Herald: We’re all elephants. We do it
for peanuts. Okay, No.1 go ahead!
671
00:51:48,690 --> 00:51:55,200
Mic 1: Yeah, hello! Hi Thomas, thanks
a lot for your work, that’s great.
672
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,450
I have a question about the involvement
of the business, the angels
673
00:51:59,450 --> 00:52:03,200
and the companies: What is the
reason, what do you think
674
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:08,660
why they came so late into
this discussion in Germany.
675
00:52:08,660 --> 00:52:12,800
What probably can we do to change
this in the future because
676
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:17,630
I think that’s a… they
are great allies in this fight.
677
00:52:17,630 --> 00:52:21,430
Thomas: That’s… you’re asking
exactly the right question.
678
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:25,810
Sadly, in Europe you have no
organized voice for startups
679
00:52:25,810 --> 00:52:30,250
or for SMEs when it comes
to Digital Rights issues;
680
00:52:30,250 --> 00:52:33,740
and you would have to work with them
to get them involved in the debate.
681
00:52:33,740 --> 00:52:37,480
They were really late to the party
and then, again, mostly activated
682
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:44,230
through U.S. networks. So the connection
between the civil rights scene here
683
00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:48,920
and the business scene, particularly the
one which is organized in Brussels
684
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,619
with European umbrellas is very weak.
So everything you can do there
685
00:52:53,619 --> 00:52:57,850
to strengthen this connection
would be great.
686
00:52:57,850 --> 00:53:00,940
But I don’t have those business
contacts. I got a few people involved
687
00:53:00,940 --> 00:53:04,360
in the first reading stuff but we’ll
definitely need more people that
688
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,840
act as multipliers to get more
companies involved, particularly now
689
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,280
when we enter into a new phase
with the BEREC guidelines.
690
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,530
We no longer need the loud arguments of…
691
00:53:17,530 --> 00:53:21,830
…of many people, we need more the
arguments from the business side,
692
00:53:21,830 --> 00:53:26,190
from the universities, from those people
who run networks. These arguments are
693
00:53:26,190 --> 00:53:29,610
better suited to make
a difference with the regulators.
694
00:53:29,610 --> 00:53:35,990
Fredy: And to add: Don’t underestimate
the influence of the lobbies,
695
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:40,680
of the big names, the Telecoms
and the liberty globals…
696
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:46,190
They have a lot of money and they
try to influence the politicians
697
00:53:46,190 --> 00:53:51,490
as good as they can. They do
a good job from their perspective.
698
00:53:51,490 --> 00:53:57,760
Thomas: You can be sure that the Telecoms
will have people for all 28 regulators,
699
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,520
now continuously lobbying for an
upcoming 9 months. The question is:
700
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,610
Who is in our team?
701
00:54:05,610 --> 00:54:11,230
Herald: OK. Thank you. Is there a question
from the internet? While we’re at it?
702
00:54:11,230 --> 00:54:16,250
Signal Angel: Yes, there is a question,
it is: Whether peering providers
703
00:54:16,250 --> 00:54:19,440
should differentiate between
virtual private network traffic
704
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,010
and public traffic; and where is the line
705
00:54:23,010 --> 00:54:30,730
between internal network
and the public internet?
706
00:54:30,730 --> 00:54:36,560
Fredy: What should I say… this is
difficult question, I mean… Basically,
707
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:43,350
if you over-commit your backbone
then there is always plenty of traffic…
708
00:54:43,350 --> 00:54:49,710
or plenty of capacity. So there is…
there shouldn’t be any differentiation.
709
00:54:49,710 --> 00:54:56,710
Networks should provide enough
capacity and then we’re good.
710
00:54:56,710 --> 00:55:00,700
A common argument from the big names:
711
00:55:00,700 --> 00:55:06,730
“Oh we are investing millions and millions
and millions in broadband expansion”,
712
00:55:06,730 --> 00:55:12,350
but unfortunately they stop investing
right at the end of their own backbone
713
00:55:12,350 --> 00:55:17,420
so they don’t invest any money
beyond their little percentage
714
00:55:17,420 --> 00:55:24,240
of the total investment
for their interconnections.
715
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:28,730
Herald: Okay, there is
another question at No.1?
716
00:55:28,730 --> 00:55:33,220
Mic 1: I have a question about buffering:
So the most of the content in the web is
717
00:55:33,220 --> 00:55:38,140
delivered over TCP/IP and…
will changing the media
718
00:55:38,140 --> 00:55:43,450
to something like UDP which has
lower overhead over TCP/IP;
719
00:55:43,450 --> 00:55:47,020
will that change the situation?
720
00:55:47,020 --> 00:55:48,400
Fredy: Not really.
Mic 1: No?
721
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:53,960
Fredy: No. It won’t help. I mean
packet loss is packet loss
722
00:55:53,960 --> 00:56:01,530
regardless whether it’s TCP or it’s UDP.
723
00:56:01,530 --> 00:56:07,220
Herald: OK, that was a short answer. Next
question please. Please talk into the mic.
724
00:56:07,220 --> 00:56:10,630
Mic: So when I came here, this
year, I had the impression that
725
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:15,030
at digital subscriber line connections
726
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:19,630
not only bandwidth is bad but also the
727
00:56:19,630 --> 00:56:23,900
ping [time] gets up way high.
Of course, I mean,
728
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:28,250
at home I have Fiber7 nowadays
so I just thought I got spoiled
729
00:56:28,250 --> 00:56:33,380
by fiber connections but I noticed
that ping times went up
730
00:56:33,380 --> 00:56:38,490
from, well, couple of years ago 60-80 ms
731
00:56:38,490 --> 00:56:42,490
from sites in your neighborhood
more or less
732
00:56:42,490 --> 00:56:48,620
to nowadays 80-160ms.
Where is the problem there?
733
00:56:48,620 --> 00:56:52,310
Fredy: Well, the latency
is directly related
734
00:56:52,310 --> 00:56:56,160
if the provider is not delivering
enough bandwidth,
735
00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:03,210
then ping goes up that’s
a normal behaviour of TCP.
736
00:57:03,210 --> 00:57:08,240
Mic: So the problem is also
at the interconnection sites?
737
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:13,360
Fredy: Probably yes, most likely,
you can find out if you do traceroute.
738
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:19,220
Then you see where… well,
there is a long presentation
739
00:57:19,220 --> 00:57:24,660
how to interpret traceroute properly.
If you look for “Nanog traceroute”
740
00:57:24,660 --> 00:57:31,470
you should find this lecture. But that
would probably give some indication.
741
00:57:31,470 --> 00:57:35,180
Mic: Alright, thank you.
Herald: Thank you. Next question from
742
00:57:35,180 --> 00:57:39,070
the internet, just in between and
then we’ll go back, go ahead.
743
00:57:39,070 --> 00:57:43,220
Signal Angel: “Is Netflix a gated
community by itself?” and
744
00:57:43,220 --> 00:57:46,520
“Are you sure that their interest
will align with the movement
745
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:52,050
of net neutrality in the long run?”
746
00:57:52,050 --> 00:57:56,590
Fredy: We should differentiate
between Netflix content
747
00:57:56,590 --> 00:58:02,180
and Netflix interconnections. So for
the content I probably would say:
748
00:58:02,180 --> 00:58:07,540
Yes. But I am not the expert. This would
be then layer 7 in the OSI model.
749
00:58:07,540 --> 00:58:11,840
I am talking here on layer 3,
this is content agnostic.
750
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:17,070
Netflix, they are one of the good
guys because they really help
751
00:58:17,070 --> 00:58:24,170
to deliver the packets. I know
them personally a few fellows
752
00:58:24,170 --> 00:58:30,000
from the peering community.
They are the good guys, definitely.
753
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,390
Thomas: Just also to answer this
question for the European debate,
754
00:58:33,390 --> 00:58:37,400
Netflix was one of the good guys in the
U.S. and they also supported of course
755
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,119
the European movement. But again, they are
so big that I wouldn’t really trust them
756
00:58:41,119 --> 00:58:45,410
as an ally because they could
also pay, they could also survive
757
00:58:45,410 --> 00:58:50,900
in a double sided market and for them
in the growing emerging markets
758
00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:55,869
like Europe where they just have started
it’s probably risky to allow for this
759
00:58:55,869 --> 00:59:02,030
new type of anti net neutrality business
models; but in the consumer side
760
00:59:02,030 --> 00:59:06,530
where net neutrality is seen as an end
user issue I think so far their interests
761
00:59:06,530 --> 00:59:10,960
mostly align. On interconnection they
have their own interests, of course.
762
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,820
Fredy: So I can say: Netflix is
definitely paying Deutsche Telekom,
763
00:59:14,820 --> 00:59:18,790
otherwise no single Deutsche Telekom user
764
00:59:18,790 --> 00:59:24,050
would be able to watch any
movie on Netflix! So! For sure!
765
00:59:24,050 --> 00:59:27,220
Herald: Okay, we are short for
time so please, last 2 questions.
766
00:59:27,220 --> 00:59:31,001
One, no.2 first. Keep it short,
please. Talk into the mic.
767
00:59:31,001 --> 00:59:35,800
Mic 2: Regarding the first talk: What
is the… do you have an explanation for
768
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:41,600
the behaviour of the European Commission
in behave of the net neutrality debate?
769
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,560
I especially think of the behaviour
of Guenther Oettinger
770
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:51,780
who repeatedly said his ridiculous lie
771
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:57,340
of “net neutrality kills” and
he repeated it again and again
772
00:59:57,340 --> 01:00:03,920
even if there was no reason
behind it. And do you
773
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:08,560
have an explanation for this behavior
of the Commission, and Juncker and this?
774
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,090
Thomas: For that argument, we had this
great YouTube video “net neutrality kills”.
775
01:00:12,090 --> 01:00:16,040
If you search it you will find it or
“Netzneutralität tötet” in German.
776
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,820
That deconstructs this argument of
Oettinger. But in general, and you can
777
01:00:19,820 --> 01:00:23,910
go back to the previous commissioner
Neelie Kroes that I showed.
778
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:26,930
Our sole suspicion is that the deal
was that the telecom industry
779
01:00:26,930 --> 01:00:30,200
has to give up a little bit of their
profits when it comes to Roaming,
780
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,940
but on the other side they gain a lot
of future profits on the abolishment
781
01:00:33,940 --> 01:00:37,480
of net neutrality. And so it was like:
“Okay, we need a populist argument”,
782
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,860
Neelie Kroes also needs a quick
win at the end of her career.
783
01:00:41,860 --> 01:00:46,960
And this was again like you take
a little bit there and put it there
784
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,560
for the Telecoms industry. And Oettinger
is a big industrial favour guy,
785
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,930
he is always for big business.
786
01:00:54,930 --> 01:00:58,560
Herald: Okay, short for time,
last question, No.1.
787
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:03,130
Mic 1: Hi, so what strategy should an ISP
use when their capacity on their backbones
788
01:01:03,130 --> 01:01:09,270
is fully loaded? Like first-in-first-out
or what is your idea about that, because
789
01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:13,190
the capacity is limited, so when there is
so much traffic that everything is stuck.
790
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:15,380
Fredy: Upgrade!
Thomas: Yes, invest in the network!
791
01:01:15,380 --> 01:01:21,580
Fredy: I mean, sorry, a 10G port is now
some 3000€ including optic and cross
792
01:01:21,580 --> 01:01:27,290
connect. It’s not that much. Upgrade!
793
01:01:27,290 --> 01:01:30,240
Herald: Okay, thank you!
Let’s have a hand!
794
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,420
applause
795
01:01:32,420 --> 01:01:38,250
Fredy Kuenzler, Thomas Lohninger.
Thank you very much! And goodbye.
796
01:01:38,250 --> 01:01:43,920
postroll music
797
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:49,261
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