0:00:00.310,0:00:09.510
preroll music
0:00:09.510,0:00:13.510
Herald: Actually, we have two[br]consecutive talks of half an hour.
0:00:13.510,0:00:17.869
And as they’re both on the[br]same more-or-less topic
0:00:17.869,0:00:22.439
we’ve decided to junk[br]them. One is right now,
0:00:22.439,0:00:26.140
that’s Thomas Lohninger from[br]Austria, my home country.
0:00:26.140,0:00:29.779
And the next one is Fredy[br]Kuenzler from Switzerland.
0:00:29.779,0:00:32.570
And they’re both talking about the same[br]problem. You know the old Churchill
0:00:32.570,0:00:36.300
saying: “There’s two things you[br]don’t wanna know exactly, that’s
0:00:36.300,0:00:41.980
how do they make sausages,[br]and how do they make laws?”.
0:00:41.980,0:00:46.540
Well, actually, you do wanna know[br]exactly how they make laws!
0:00:46.540,0:00:49.860
Otherwise you find yourself[br]with a law you don’t want.
0:00:49.860,0:00:53.340
And a sarco enemy can avoid a banger,[br]but you can’t avoid a law.
0:00:53.340,0:00:57.720
So Thomas here is gonna tell you[br]about the fight for net neutrality
0:00:57.720,0:01:02.290
in Europe. And let’s have a big[br]hand for Thomas Lohninger!
0:01:02.290,0:01:10.510
applause
0:01:10.510,0:01:14.070
Thomas: Hello and thank you,[br]everybody! Good.
0:01:14.070,0:01:17.689
So, let’s dive right in. We have a lot of[br]ground to cover for the past 3 years
0:01:17.689,0:01:22.030
which have to fit in the next 30 minutes.[br]So I’m gonna talk fast at the end,
0:01:22.030,0:01:25.359
so that we have a little bit more[br]time for the outlook in the future.
0:01:25.359,0:01:29.539
The subtitle of this talk is ‘Alea iacta[br]est’, so ‘the dices have fallen’
0:01:29.539,0:01:33.889
which in fact is not really true.[br]We now have legislation
0:01:33.889,0:01:37.710
in Europe for the first time, binding[br]legislation for net neutrality
0:01:37.710,0:01:41.909
in all 28 member states. And this[br]talk will be about the history
0:01:41.909,0:01:46.600
of this legislation and how civil society[br]played a huge role in this law.
0:01:46.600,0:01:49.299
But still the law that we have[br]now is really ambiguous;
0:01:49.299,0:01:53.139
so the fight is not over. There are next[br]steps to come which will actually give it
0:01:53.139,0:01:57.950
real meaning, and influence what net[br]neutrality we’ll actually have in Europe.
0:01:57.950,0:02:02.619
A little bit of introduction: So,[br]net neutrality in principle is
0:02:02.619,0:02:07.110
the universality of the network.[br]As you see here
0:02:07.110,0:02:10.369
we’re all interconnected[br]over the network and…
0:02:10.369,0:02:14.849
the basic foundational principles[br]that boil down in these days
0:02:14.849,0:02:19.230
– in the age of deep packet inspection[br]and discriminatory pricing –
0:02:19.230,0:02:22.749
net neutrality boils down to[br]discrimination protection.
0:02:22.749,0:02:26.069
And it’s basically preventing[br]ISPs to establish
0:02:26.069,0:02:29.909
new discriminatory business models.[br]This was also the starting point
0:02:29.909,0:02:34.349
for this European legislation called[br]‘Telecom Civil Market’. It’s a regulation;
0:02:34.349,0:02:38.030
that means it’s directly applicable[br]in all 28 member states,
0:02:38.030,0:02:41.930
not like a directive. It doesn’t have to[br]be transposed to national legislation,
0:02:41.930,0:02:45.670
it’s already a law in all 28 countries.
0:02:45.670,0:02:50.540
And the responsible commissioner, back in[br]September 2013, when it was introduced,
0:02:50.540,0:02:53.500
is this old lady, Neelie Kroes.[br]Audio/Video playback starts
0:02:53.500,0:02:58.970
Neelie Kroes: It is a fact that we are all[br]connected or we want to be connected.
0:02:58.970,0:03:04.099
So this package is essential for[br]Europe’s strategic interests,
0:03:04.099,0:03:09.939
for Europe’s economic progress.[br]It is absolutely crucial
0:03:09.939,0:03:14.299
for the telecom sector itself.[br]And, of course, for citizens
0:03:14.299,0:03:19.450
who need full and fair access[br]to telecom services such as
0:03:19.450,0:03:23.919
internet, and such as mobile services.[br]Audio/Video playback stops
0:03:23.919,0:03:28.140
Thomas: “Such as internet”…[br]This is also the spirit of this whole law.
0:03:28.140,0:03:32.709
You have internet, which is kind of[br]neutral, and then you have other stuff.
0:03:32.709,0:03:36.000
Like specialized services, which you[br]could basically translate in your head to
0:03:36.000,0:03:39.780
‘net neutrality violation’, or ‘paid[br]fast lanes’. And if you look
0:03:39.780,0:03:43.489
at the original Commission proposal,[br]which they put in front of us, they had
0:03:43.489,0:03:47.670
really weird language, like “within[br]the contract that you enter into
0:03:47.670,0:03:51.680
with your ISP you’re not allowed to[br]discriminate”. But if the contract states
0:03:51.680,0:03:55.040
that you have discriminatory pricing,[br]or different speeds for different types
0:03:55.040,0:03:59.989
of applications that would be legal, under[br]the original Commission proposal.
0:03:59.989,0:04:04.189
The Commission had a 3-fold[br]strategy: It used the election
0:04:04.189,0:04:08.920
to get the Parliament to adopt[br]this regulation really fast,
0:04:08.920,0:04:13.390
to put it in a hurry, to rush this[br]thing through before the elections
0:04:13.390,0:04:19.339
in May 2014. It used a populist[br]element which was roaming.
0:04:19.339,0:04:22.990
If you have heard any coverage about[br]this legislation it was probably
0:04:22.990,0:04:27.500
about the roaming part. That Europe[br]would abolish roaming charges
0:04:27.500,0:04:32.280
which was actually kind of a fuzzy deal.[br]You will still have Roaming charges
0:04:32.280,0:04:36.270
but you will have different names and[br]different forms. But that was something
0:04:36.270,0:04:39.840
which made it essential for all[br]MEPs, for all parliamentarians
0:04:39.840,0:04:44.210
in the European Parliament to[br]pass this legislation really fast.
0:04:44.210,0:04:47.590
And they used bizarre and complex[br]language as you’ve just seen:
0:04:47.590,0:04:51.460
the whole regulation was full of that.[br]And the fourth point is
0:04:51.460,0:04:55.490
that in their language, in the PR[br]strategy, they were always claiming
0:04:55.490,0:04:59.110
to support net neutrality. We see the[br]same thing with Guenther Oettinger now,
0:04:59.110,0:05:03.810
the successor of Neelie Kroes, he’s also[br]saying that he supports net neutrality,
0:05:03.810,0:05:07.450
but in fact he’s doing the opposite.
0:05:07.450,0:05:11.020
So what have we done, once this[br]regulation was in front of us?
0:05:11.020,0:05:15.040
We started to write amendments[br]in a wiki. Actually it took us
0:05:15.040,0:05:18.700
only a month to come up with[br]the first improvements for this text.
0:05:18.700,0:05:23.030
And I also said that I wanted[br]to give some ‘lessons-learned’.
0:05:23.030,0:05:28.669
The first lesson-to-learn if you want to[br]influence European policy is: Come early!
0:05:28.669,0:05:32.069
The earlier you are on the table, the[br]earlier you start talking with officials
0:05:32.069,0:05:36.310
about a subject the more influence[br]you will have on the process. So
0:05:36.310,0:05:40.340
if you want to influence legislation don’t[br]look what is in the calendar next month
0:05:40.340,0:05:45.030
– look what is in the calendar in 3 years.[br]Then you have a good chance
0:05:45.030,0:05:49.580
to really make a difference. And we[br]had the ‘savetheinternet’ campaign
0:05:49.580,0:05:54.180
which was actually launched here[br]on that stage, 3 years ago.
0:05:54.180,0:05:59.729
And the talk with Markus[br]Beckedahl at 30C3.
0:05:59.729,0:06:05.720
And the website basically[br]followed a simple idea.
0:06:05.720,0:06:10.529
Translate attention into political force.[br]Give people something to do.
0:06:10.529,0:06:14.490
And provide actionable items – it’s the[br]second lesson that you can take away
0:06:14.490,0:06:17.910
from that. You have to give[br]people something to do.
0:06:17.910,0:06:20.050
Otherwise they will not care about[br]the subject. Otherwise they will
0:06:20.050,0:06:24.389
not get really involved.[br]They will not feel like they have
0:06:24.389,0:06:27.729
a part in whatever political[br]issue you wanna raise.
0:06:27.729,0:06:31.380
And emboss these[br]actionable items actually;
0:06:31.380,0:06:35.780
translate the attention and the will[br]of the citizens into something
0:06:35.780,0:06:39.300
that’s in front of the officials,[br]in front of the parliamentarians.
0:06:39.300,0:06:43.699
In our case: calls, faxes,[br]tweets and emails.
0:06:43.699,0:06:46.990
These were our actionable items; and
0:06:46.990,0:06:51.629
here I also want to thank Michael[br]Bauer who was the core developer
0:06:51.629,0:06:55.199
of all the contact-your-MEP[br]tools of savetheinternet
0:06:55.199,0:06:59.520
besides the Pi phone from[br]laquadraturedenet who sadly deceased
0:06:59.520,0:07:03.029
with a heart attack this year. And…
0:07:03.029,0:07:07.759
applause
0:07:07.759,0:07:12.430
But without him we never would[br]have made it in such a good time.
0:07:12.430,0:07:15.349
He developed the whole contact[br]suite in like a week or so.
0:07:15.349,0:07:21.150
He was a really brilliant person.[br]So the fax thing was really cool.
0:07:21.150,0:07:24.550
We sent around 40,000 faxes to the[br]parliament[arian]s, 20,000 of which
0:07:24.550,0:07:31.150
were already also received by them. Here[br]again, I want to thank the ISP Kappa
0:07:31.150,0:07:35.259
who sponsored us all those faxes[br]for free, for the first round.
0:07:35.259,0:07:38.190
We didn’t have to pay for any of them.
0:07:38.190,0:07:43.870
So third lesson is: be creative.[br]So faxes were a novel thing,
0:07:43.870,0:07:47.780
It wasn’t done any time before.[br]And so they were really influential
0:07:47.780,0:07:52.129
because suddenly you would have[br]a physical token of a citizen’s will
0:07:52.129,0:07:57.220
in the office of the parliamentarian. But[br]like every creative campaigning idea
0:07:57.220,0:08:00.490
only works once or twice now the[br]Parliament has switched to
0:08:00.490,0:08:03.950
an electronic fax delivery.[br]So this idea no longer works.
0:08:03.950,0:08:09.479
At least not so efficiently.[br]So you have to adopt fast.
0:08:09.479,0:08:13.069
This is the process in the[br]European Parliament.
0:08:13.069,0:08:16.139
You have these several committees[br]which all adopt their opinions
0:08:16.139,0:08:20.580
on the legislation. And then the whole[br]thing goes into the leading committee
0:08:20.580,0:08:24.010
– the Industry Committee in this[br]case. And then to plenary.
0:08:24.010,0:08:27.389
Here I wanna thank Petra Kammerevert,[br]German Social Democrat.
0:08:27.389,0:08:31.889
It was like the only MEP that sticked with[br]us, from the beginning to the end.
0:08:31.889,0:08:36.010
She was really fighting like hell.[br]And she was one of the good guys.
0:08:36.010,0:08:39.320
One of the bad guys is [Vera] Pilar del[br]Castillo, the Rapporteur down there,
0:08:39.320,0:08:42.760
in the ITRE committee. As[br]a Rapporteur she has a lot of power
0:08:42.760,0:08:46.670
over the process of this legislation[br]in Europe. And she was really
0:08:46.670,0:08:51.309
working against us wherever she could.[br]And also working against the opinion
0:08:51.309,0:08:56.240
of the European Parliament. So she was not[br]really negotiating to get the good deal
0:08:56.240,0:09:00.269
that the parliament adopted in plenary[br]in first reading. She was really working
0:09:00.269,0:09:05.200
to get what the telcos and Telefonica[br]are wanting. And so in the plenary
0:09:05.200,0:09:09.390
we actually managed to get amendments[br]through. Before that, it looked quite grim
0:09:09.390,0:09:13.510
but we had those amendments[br]which got a majority
0:09:13.510,0:09:17.761
and which brought us the victory.[br]Because this legislation is now passed
0:09:17.761,0:09:21.830
and published in the journal, I’m now[br]also at liberty to speak a little bit more
0:09:21.830,0:09:27.320
about what is the background[br]of it. And actually,
0:09:27.320,0:09:33.690
as you have here in this email[br]from a UK Social Democrat,
0:09:33.690,0:09:38.959
the text came from civil society,[br]which in fact is true.
0:09:38.959,0:09:44.649
When we drafted this text there were[br]like 3 things that we had to do.
0:09:44.649,0:09:49.320
We had to fix all loop holes. We had[br]to change as little as necessary,
0:09:49.320,0:09:53.339
so only minor text changes.[br]Every word is costly.
0:09:53.339,0:09:57.330
And we couldn’t use any politically[br]loaded phrases. So we had to come up
0:09:57.330,0:10:01.690
with totally new language. Which[br]would solve all problems but still
0:10:01.690,0:10:06.590
get a majority which in fact[br]we managed to achieve.
0:10:06.590,0:10:15.510
There was also a bigger majority…[br]applause
0:10:15.510,0:10:19.940
So that’s us celebrating[br]after the victory. And…
0:10:19.940,0:10:24.980
that was big fun. So fourth lesson
0:10:24.980,0:10:29.090
to take away is: Be clear about[br]your demands with politicians.
0:10:29.090,0:10:33.350
You will not succeed in asking[br]for stuff that you will not…
0:10:33.350,0:10:36.110
that is impossible for the politician.[br]You have to ask for something
0:10:36.110,0:10:39.779
which is realistic. And in their eyes[br]getting a good text in first reading
0:10:39.779,0:10:45.100
was realistic. But there were many[br]formality arguments in second reading.
0:10:45.100,0:10:48.690
Which worked against us, and[br]at the end broke our necks.
0:10:48.690,0:10:52.639
One was that the parliament is[br]not really emancipated from
0:10:52.639,0:10:57.180
the other institutions. Council has much[br]more power. So the member states
0:10:57.180,0:11:01.740
really can make demands and draw red lines[br]that the parliament is not really willing
0:11:01.740,0:11:06.980
to step over. And ‘second reading’ also[br]means that you need an absolute majority
0:11:06.980,0:11:11.660
for any amendment. Not just a simple[br]majority. So half of all MEPs
0:11:11.660,0:11:15.690
and not just those who[br]are present at the vote.
0:11:15.690,0:11:20.149
But it’s not all just the first reading:[br]here you have a basic idea of
0:11:20.149,0:11:25.029
how laws are adopted in the European[br]Union. With the Commission on top,
0:11:25.029,0:11:29.579
the Parliament at the left and the member[br]states in the Council on the right.
0:11:29.579,0:11:33.660
And we had savetheinternet[br]campaigns for all of those steps.
0:11:33.660,0:11:36.959
And basically when the Commission adopted[br]their proposal that was of course
0:11:36.959,0:11:41.120
anti net neutrality at its best.[br]The Parliament fixed it,
0:11:41.120,0:11:45.690
the Council reverted it and really came[br]up with a text that was partly even worse
0:11:45.690,0:11:49.440
than what the Commission[br]originally wanted.
0:11:49.440,0:11:54.860
And then those 3 institutions sat[br]together in the most intransparent way
0:11:54.860,0:12:01.310
you could imagine… and came[br]together and made a new text.
0:12:01.310,0:12:04.680
And the agreement here, in trialub (?),[br]that was actually reached
0:12:04.680,0:12:09.199
at 2 AM with everybody almost[br]asleep, everybody like:
0:12:09.199,0:12:13.940
“Okay, let’s fix this, let’s fix this…”.[br]And the Liberals,
0:12:13.940,0:12:18.470
the Greens, the Left, all of them were[br]already out of the room. They were saying:
0:12:18.470,0:12:21.910
“Okay, no deal, we’ll continue[br]after the summer break,
0:12:21.910,0:12:25.880
let’s just not continue any[br]more discussion!” And then
0:12:25.880,0:12:30.209
the negotiator from the Social Democrats,[br]Patricia Toia, she was already standing
0:12:30.209,0:12:33.740
in the doorway with her[br]handbag in her hand.
0:12:33.740,0:12:36.959
And then she agreed to this proposal.
0:12:36.959,0:12:41.019
Because the Conservatives gave her some[br]concessions on Roaming, then she agreed,
0:12:41.019,0:12:44.550
to the shitty net neutrality. So that’s[br]it actually what it boils down to,
0:12:44.550,0:12:49.850
at some stages. And it was [Pilar del][br]Castillo who was driving this compromise.
0:12:49.850,0:12:52.660
So we had a really bad text[br]which was on the table.
0:12:52.660,0:12:56.660
And agreed between all 3 institutions.[br]But then it would still need
0:12:56.660,0:13:00.760
to go through Parliament.[br]And we had to ask ourselves
0:13:00.760,0:13:04.310
over the summer break: “Is this text[br]worse than useless?” Should we really
0:13:04.310,0:13:07.950
fight for amendments, or[br]should we fight for deletion?
0:13:07.950,0:13:12.580
This was a huge argument[br]within the savetheinternet coalition.
0:13:12.580,0:13:16.700
And even I was sympathetic[br]with both sides.
0:13:16.700,0:13:19.860
But at the end we thought[br]this text is better than
0:13:19.860,0:13:23.940
e.g. what the US had in their first[br]net neutrality law. And therefor
0:13:23.940,0:13:28.420
it’s worth fighting. Because maybe there[br]are countries, like Austria, like Germany,
0:13:28.420,0:13:31.860
like the Netherlands that have or[br]would adopt good legislation.
0:13:31.860,0:13:36.470
But many other countries would not.[br]And so, in the sense of the European Union
0:13:36.470,0:13:42.040
we thought: “Better have this compromise[br]for 28 instead of just a few good laws.”
0:13:42.040,0:13:44.649
And then something really magical[br]happened. Because finally we got support
0:13:44.649,0:13:49.160
from the US. We had Barbara van[br]Schewick, the world’s leading expert
0:13:49.160,0:13:53.339
and scientist on net neutrality[br]speaking out in support for us.
0:13:53.339,0:13:57.320
So did Lawrence Lessig, so[br]did Sir Tim Berners-Lee, and
0:13:57.320,0:14:01.030
many other supporters. And we also had[br]companies getting involved, start-ups
0:14:01.030,0:14:05.630
and big internet companies like Wordpress.[br]And we also had venture capitalists
0:14:05.630,0:14:09.800
that urged the parliamentarians to[br]really adopt these amendments,
0:14:09.800,0:14:13.029
make this a clear legislation. Because[br]otherwise they would stop investing
0:14:13.029,0:14:18.520
into European start-ups. Because I would[br]not get money into a business model
0:14:18.520,0:14:23.190
which might not work in a few months.
0:14:23.190,0:14:27.009
And also in Germany we had big[br]support from the media authorities,
0:14:27.009,0:14:31.200
the Landesmedienanstalten, and the[br]Association of German Journalists.
0:14:31.200,0:14:34.910
Many others. But really, what we[br]didn’t do here, we didn’t come early.
0:14:34.910,0:14:39.110
This was all a last-minute action. The[br]real traction this whole thing gained
0:14:39.110,0:14:42.680
one week before the final vote![br]And that was too late.
0:14:42.680,0:14:46.260
If we could have had this traction,[br]this media coverage beforehand
0:14:46.260,0:14:51.000
then it might have turned out differently.[br]But what you can take away from that is
0:14:51.000,0:14:54.519
that we have to broaden our movement.[br]That we really have to go
0:14:54.519,0:14:59.440
out of the net political nerd bubble.[br]We have to reach other people.
0:14:59.440,0:15:03.029
Digital rights issues are[br]broad civil society issues.
0:15:03.029,0:15:07.100
And we have to treat them as such.[br]Go to the churches. Go to the journalists.
0:15:07.100,0:15:12.350
Go to whomever is willing to listen, and[br]make your cause, and broaden the movement.
0:15:12.350,0:15:16.490
And we had really creative[br]actions like here in Barcelona.
0:15:16.490,0:15:22.070
Our member Xnet had this nice projection[br]on the building of Telefonica.
0:15:22.070,0:15:26.290
But at the end it didn’t work. We[br]failed in Second Reading. And I have
0:15:26.290,0:15:31.020
to speed up a little bit and explain you[br]why this is not the end of net neutrality.
0:15:31.020,0:15:35.509
I know this was in the media quite[br]heavily. And if you look at it binarily,
0:15:35.509,0:15:38.960
of course this is a loss for us because[br]we campaigned for amendments
0:15:38.960,0:15:42.720
and we did not succeed. But still[br]the text it’s now on the table.
0:15:42.720,0:15:45.170
The biggest problem[br]is that it’s ambiguous.
0:15:45.170,0:15:49.860
But it has some good parts in it. And one[br]word of advice: you have to keep in mind
0:15:49.860,0:15:53.050
that the US also needed two[br]approaches to get this right.
0:15:53.050,0:15:57.560
The first net neutrality laws were[br]even worse than what we have now.
0:15:57.560,0:16:00.949
There is clarity that this is now[br]applicable – not only to fixed line
0:16:00.949,0:16:06.060
but also to mobile internet. And at least[br]we’ll see no longer commercial blocking
0:16:06.060,0:16:09.800
in Europe. You could still have state[br]blocking, so like censorship lists
0:16:09.800,0:16:13.850
from any public authority. But[br]you could not e.g. block Skype
0:16:13.850,0:16:20.000
if you are a mobile operator and want[br]people corner into using your own roaming.
0:16:20.000,0:16:24.100
There is intentional ambiguity, and all[br]the big questions about net neutrality and
0:16:24.100,0:16:29.290
paid fast lanes. And so the real decision[br]is now left to the unelected regulators.
0:16:29.290,0:16:33.630
And to the unelected judges. We[br]most certainly expect court cases
0:16:33.630,0:16:38.490
in front of the European High Court.[br]And this means huge legal uncertainty.
0:16:38.490,0:16:44.029
Which is really bad. Not only for[br]citizens but also for business.
0:16:44.029,0:16:50.020
So there are 4 big subjects[br]we have to cover.
0:16:50.020,0:16:54.009
That are still in the debate now with the[br]European regulator that’s now tasked with
0:16:54.009,0:16:59.000
giving this law actual meaning.[br]Specialized services…
0:16:59.000,0:17:02.730
as I said you could translate it in[br]your head with ‘paid fast lanes’
0:17:02.730,0:17:06.660
and ‘not net neutrality’ or with ‘those[br]services that really have nothing to do
0:17:06.660,0:17:10.630
with the internet’. That has to be our[br]goal here. There are 5 safeguards
0:17:10.630,0:17:15.540
in the regulation that we have to apply[br]right and then we can still achieve
0:17:15.540,0:17:21.660
that goal. But the regulators… like[br]these are the 28 organizations
0:17:21.660,0:17:26.210
in Europe that are tasked with[br]regulating the telecom markets.
0:17:26.210,0:17:29.590
They are not doing anything else than[br]reading laws and applying them
0:17:29.590,0:17:34.040
on the market. And that’s one of the[br]questions they asked us in the hearing.
0:17:34.040,0:17:39.020
So would it be okay to have internet[br]services as specialized services?
0:17:39.020,0:17:42.610
And you can see how really vague and[br]ambiguous this law is, if this is
0:17:42.610,0:17:47.720
the basic question that they’re asking us.[br]Similarly with zero rating, the practice
0:17:47.720,0:17:52.250
of commercial discrimination. If some[br]data packages cost more than others.
0:17:52.250,0:17:56.130
Again, we have some sort[br]of safeguard here.
0:17:56.130,0:18:00.980
But ‘commercial practices’ is the corner[br]word here. Because zero rating
0:18:00.980,0:18:05.100
is not mentioned in the whole legislation.[br]‘Commercial practices’ – and that’s
0:18:05.100,0:18:09.260
the funny part. They’re asking us[br]– the regulators asking civil society –
0:18:09.260,0:18:13.580
what in our understanding ‘commercial[br]practices’ actually means. And
0:18:13.580,0:18:17.750
from our perspective there are 2 ways of[br]seeing it. Either it means ‘zero rating’
0:18:17.750,0:18:22.180
in which case it has to be prohibited. Or[br]it means anything else in which case
0:18:22.180,0:18:29.980
e.g. it could mean ‘interconnection’.[br]That applies perfectly to the legislation.
0:18:29.980,0:18:35.100
But in that case this whole topic would[br]be left for national legislation.
0:18:35.100,0:18:39.650
So the Dutch net neutrality law[br]could still outlaw zero rating,
0:18:39.650,0:18:44.380
or Germany could adopt a new law[br]which would prohibit that practice.
0:18:44.380,0:18:48.750
A very important point which was[br]sadly not so much discussed
0:18:48.750,0:18:53.460
is traffic management. There is[br]a risk that ISPs could introduce
0:18:53.460,0:18:59.070
a class based CIF system to manage[br]congestion, e.g. That would look like:
0:18:59.070,0:19:02.180
“Okay, we have all video streaming[br]applications in one class
0:19:02.180,0:19:07.500
and we prioritize them. But we don’t[br]prioritize telephony applications,
0:19:07.500,0:19:12.020
because although they also are[br]delay-sensitive they are
0:19:12.020,0:19:16.210
against our own business models, and[br]therefor we are not prioritizing them.”
0:19:16.210,0:19:20.190
Class-based traffic management has another[br]big problem. And you can look at the UK
0:19:20.190,0:19:27.340
where this is a common practice.[br]If you want to throttle file-sharing
0:19:27.340,0:19:30.690
and you have some gaming applications[br]that look similar like file-sharing
0:19:30.690,0:19:33.930
you could end up with[br]throttled gaming applications
0:19:33.930,0:19:38.650
which make the games unusable.[br]And so in the UK you have now
0:19:38.650,0:19:43.750
standing committees between game[br]developers and ISPs like Plusnet
0:19:43.750,0:19:47.950
and before they have a rollout of a new[br]game they have to sit down and agree
0:19:47.950,0:19:51.220
on the technical characteristics,[br]so that the game actually works
0:19:51.220,0:19:55.120
in the British internet. And this is[br]the total opposite of innovation
0:19:55.120,0:19:59.400
without permission.[br]And from our understanding
0:19:59.400,0:20:03.700
traffic management always has to be[br]as application agnostic as possible.
0:20:03.700,0:20:08.290
So: only look at the header, don’t[br]look in the contents of the package,
0:20:08.290,0:20:13.640
don’t make any differentiation[br]between applications or services.
0:20:13.640,0:20:16.960
And there’s also a problem: If you[br]look at the content, if you want
0:20:16.960,0:20:20.960
to treat encrypted traffic differently[br]there is a risk that all encrypted traffic
0:20:20.960,0:20:29.030
could end up in the slow lane.
0:20:29.030,0:20:32.600
In principle this is what we want to[br]achieve. Be as application agnostic
0:20:32.600,0:20:36.950
as possible and then only allow[br]traffic management based
0:20:36.950,0:20:41.030
on technical characteristics where it is[br]really necessary and proportionate
0:20:41.030,0:20:44.140
and you cannot solve the problem[br]in any other way. And then only
0:20:44.140,0:20:49.990
if this is not sufficient you could[br]resert to a class-based system.
0:20:49.990,0:20:54.140
Transparency – we will see[br]some big change here
0:20:54.140,0:20:57.850
when it comes to advertised[br]and real speeds of internet.
0:20:57.850,0:21:00.960
So if this regulation enters into force[br]and if the transparency provisions
0:21:00.960,0:21:05.140
are applied correctly you will no[br]longer have just up to a certain
0:21:05.140,0:21:08.910
Megabyte [per second] of internet; instead[br]you will have a minimum, an average
0:21:08.910,0:21:12.220
and a maximum bandwidth which[br]has to be stated in the contract. So
0:21:12.220,0:21:17.370
more accurate information[br]for consumers. Now,
0:21:17.370,0:21:21.140
this is the organization that is now[br]tasked with making actual sense
0:21:21.140,0:21:26.560
out of this legislation. So this is the[br]umbrella of all 28 regulatory authorities
0:21:26.560,0:21:31.930
in Europe. Like Bundesnetzagentur[br]in Germany, or RTR in Austria.
0:21:31.930,0:21:35.870
All those come together under[br]the umbrella of BEREC; and
0:21:35.870,0:21:39.710
they now have until the end of[br]august, according to the regulation,
0:21:39.710,0:21:43.630
to come up with actual guidelines[br]that give this text real meaning.
0:21:43.630,0:21:47.570
And if we look at the timeline this[br]is basically our work programme
0:21:47.570,0:21:50.920
which we’ll have to fill with life.
0:21:50.920,0:21:54.380
The parliament adopted the[br]regulation in October; and
0:21:54.380,0:21:58.230
it was published in the journal on[br]November 26 which gives us the 9 months
0:21:58.230,0:22:03.180
of time we now have. And there[br]was a stakeholder hearing
0:22:03.180,0:22:07.220
from civil society; I could[br]participate for EDRI; and
0:22:07.220,0:22:11.210
we basically sat down with the regulators[br]and gave them our interpretation
0:22:11.210,0:22:14.580
of the text. But just so did also the[br]content application providers
0:22:14.580,0:22:18.650
like the public broadcasters,[br]or internet companies;
0:22:18.650,0:22:22.070
and so did the telecom industry. So[br]now they have to strike a balance
0:22:22.070,0:22:25.520
between those 3 stakeholder groups.
0:22:25.520,0:22:30.800
We’re now at a point where the working[br]groups are drafting the guidelines.
0:22:30.800,0:22:35.050
Really weird fact: the whole[br]regulation will enter into force
0:22:35.050,0:22:38.630
at the end of April. Although the[br]guidelines are not applicable there.
0:22:38.630,0:22:41.220
And nobody could answer the[br]question what this actually means
0:22:41.220,0:22:46.840
if there would be a case, in this[br]period between April and August.
0:22:46.840,0:22:50.630
So this working draft will[br]then be voted in plenary
0:22:50.630,0:22:54.400
at the end of June, and then we’ll[br]have 20 days of public consultation.
0:22:54.400,0:22:58.290
You’ll have 20 days to say[br]what you think about
0:22:58.290,0:23:02.110
the new net neutrality in Europe.[br]Which is ridiculous. And then they have
0:23:02.110,0:23:06.640
roughly a little bit less than two months[br]to analyze all this feedback,
0:23:06.640,0:23:10.450
and to redraft the guidelines.[br]So the more feedback they receive
0:23:10.450,0:23:14.810
the fewer time they’ll have to actually[br]redraft the whole thing before it’s
0:23:14.810,0:23:18.330
finally voted in the extraordinary[br]plenary within BEREC.
0:23:18.330,0:23:23.500
So that it can be published.[br]So let’s focus on those 20 days.
0:23:23.500,0:23:28.750
In the US we had several months of[br]consultation and 4 Mio. comments.
0:23:28.750,0:23:34.370
In India it was 28 days.[br]Still 1 Mio. comments.
0:23:34.370,0:23:36.970
And they are continuing. They all have[br]another consultation up and running
0:23:36.970,0:23:41.010
right now. And now in[br]Europe we have 20 days.
0:23:41.010,0:23:44.330
So this is the comparison that we face.
0:23:44.330,0:23:47.700
And this also means for European[br]civil society and all those people
0:23:47.700,0:23:51.690
who care about the internet – this is the[br]time line, and this is the opportunity
0:23:51.690,0:23:56.270
that we have. We can look at the US.
0:23:56.270,0:24:00.660
This is an analysis of the comments[br]that were given to the FCC
0:24:00.660,0:24:04.390
when they first asked for[br]opinions about net neutrality.
0:24:04.390,0:24:10.550
And there is now a huge collection[br]of scientific papers,
0:24:10.550,0:24:14.870
visualizations and everything[br]about this huge record
0:24:14.870,0:24:18.690
about the topic of net neutrality.[br]So you can see that there are
0:24:18.690,0:24:22.251
so many issues that – also organically –[br]that people commented [on].
0:24:22.251,0:24:26.930
You have very few templates in here.[br]So out of these 4 Mio. comments
0:24:26.930,0:24:31.590
many of them are actually people sitting[br]down, writing in their own words
0:24:31.590,0:24:35.380
what they think about the subject.[br]How it would influence their business.
0:24:35.380,0:24:39.371
How it would influence their education.[br]How it would influence the network
0:24:39.371,0:24:42.960
that they are running. And you[br]have many interesting stuff like
0:24:42.960,0:24:48.420
“you need net neutrality[br]for the American Dream”.
0:24:48.420,0:24:51.930
And the idea behind that is also a[br]“maybe we can take some advice
0:24:51.930,0:24:56.030
from the US, here, for Europe”.[br]That America is America
0:24:56.030,0:25:00.660
because you can connect to different[br]opinions. At the core of net neutrality
0:25:00.660,0:25:04.980
you have the equality of the network.[br]And this was preserved here
0:25:04.980,0:25:09.520
with the new rules in the US; and we[br]should really take advice on that.
0:25:09.520,0:25:14.270
And that’s also why we as[br]savetheinternet coalition
0:25:14.270,0:25:17.440
will come up with a new version[br]of the website. That will
0:25:17.440,0:25:20.860
support the consultation and[br]extend it, not just in the 20 days
0:25:20.860,0:25:25.680
but for a longer time period. So that[br]more of you have the opportunity
0:25:25.680,0:25:29.350
to have an actionable item, to do[br]something for this legislation.
0:25:29.350,0:25:33.770
And to really have your say.
0:25:33.770,0:25:38.000
In the remaining time I would like[br]to step a little bit out of Europe
0:25:38.000,0:25:41.970
and follow the motto[br]of this year’s Congress,
0:25:41.970,0:25:47.600
and look a bit at the global issue.
0:25:47.600,0:25:51.870
You see now there’s… many[br]legislation are actually discussed
0:25:51.870,0:25:56.321
or already in place. It varies greatly[br]in the amount of safeguard
0:25:56.321,0:26:02.560
that it provides for citizens. And thanks[br]to Andre Meister from netzpolitik.org
0:26:02.560,0:26:06.390
we have a little collection of all the[br]billboards and advertisements
0:26:06.390,0:26:10.770
in Latin America about zero rating.[br]So let’s have a look how this is
0:26:10.770,0:26:14.520
seen in Peru, in Chile and other[br]countries. You have here
0:26:14.520,0:26:18.000
free social networking which[br]is huge advertisement donors.
0:26:18.000,0:26:23.740
And you have full internet[br]with this websites.
0:26:23.740,0:26:27.790
And we’re not speaking about nerdy stuff.[br]This is like a selling proposition,
0:26:27.790,0:26:33.670
that you can have these services for free,[br]therefor buy my SIMCard, buy my internet.
0:26:33.670,0:26:37.440
And it goes on and on like that. But it
0:26:37.440,0:26:42.430
gets really ugly if you look at[br]what’s happening in India right now.
0:26:42.430,0:26:45.350
Facebook has this program called[br]internet.org which is basically
0:26:45.350,0:26:50.050
a gated community which gives[br]poor people without any access
0:26:50.050,0:26:55.210
to the internet just access to[br]Facebook and a few other sites.
0:26:55.210,0:26:58.650
And Facebook is now on the[br]offensive. They are asking citizens
0:26:58.650,0:27:03.310
to lobby the regulator[br]against net neutrality.
0:27:03.310,0:27:06.720
They’re really challenged in that, and[br]you could see that Facebook was
0:27:06.720,0:27:10.940
fast responding because[br]the public pressure in India
0:27:10.940,0:27:16.230
amounted to companies, and[br]telecom actors and also politicians
0:27:16.230,0:27:21.250
publicly denouncing this[br]program. I can only quote
0:27:21.250,0:27:26.090
one of the founders of[br]savetheinternet.in, Nikhil Baba.
0:27:26.090,0:27:29.910
He said yesterday that the only question[br]that he would ask Mark Zuckerberg
0:27:29.910,0:27:35.140
who is always on the forefront[br]to defend his program:
0:27:35.140,0:27:39.220
“Why is he just giving[br]these free basic services
0:27:39.220,0:27:42.410
with just a few selected hundred sites
0:27:42.410,0:27:46.350
instead of giving them the whole[br]access to the internet?”. If you give
0:27:46.350,0:27:50.380
the bandwidth that’s reserved for these[br]programs just freely to everybody
0:27:50.380,0:27:54.480
so that they can use them in whatever[br]way they want you would achieve
0:27:54.480,0:27:58.730
exactly the same commercial[br]interest for the telecom providers.
0:27:58.730,0:28:04.340
And there are similar programs from[br]Mozilla and also from other Indian ISPs
0:28:04.340,0:28:09.300
that just give people 3 months[br]of a few megabytes
0:28:09.300,0:28:12.030
to get them hooked on the[br]internet. If this is just the idea
0:28:12.030,0:28:16.800
to bridge the digital gap by getting[br]people some sense of our internet
0:28:16.800,0:28:21.390
that could be easily done by that way.
0:28:21.390,0:28:25.230
We have to look at the challenges for[br]the global net neutrality movement.
0:28:25.230,0:28:30.170
This issue is far from just[br]a Western debate right now.
0:28:30.170,0:28:34.050
And we always have been wondering in the[br]Digital Rights movement how it would be
0:28:34.050,0:28:37.930
if Google or Facebook would be[br]on the other side of our debate.
0:28:37.930,0:28:41.590
If they really would fight against us.[br]We can look at the global south.
0:28:41.590,0:28:45.030
It’s first happening there. So
0:28:45.030,0:28:49.160
that’s the end of my talk and also[br]my time. I want to thank you.
0:28:49.160,0:28:52.970
I want to urge you to keep fighting;[br]net neutrality is not lost in Europe.
0:28:52.970,0:28:56.020
It’s more like we now have[br]a really ambiguous law.
0:28:56.020,0:29:00.820
The responsibility lies now with the[br]regulators. So we are in a way
0:29:00.820,0:29:05.400
at a point where the US was in 2014. And[br]now we have to do a similar mobilization.
0:29:05.400,0:29:10.000
We have to do a similar form[br]of argumentation to get it right.
0:29:10.000,0:29:15.870
And savetheinternet is[br]a coalition of 12 NGOs,
0:29:15.870,0:29:20.530
and we don’t have one fixed hub, but[br]there is a lot of development going on
0:29:20.530,0:29:25.700
in Austria. And we’ll also have a workshop[br]today at 6 PM at the EDRI assembly
0:29:25.700,0:29:31.471
at Noisy Square. If you want to get[br]involved, if you have a special interest,
0:29:31.471,0:29:36.650
a business, or are an ISP, then[br]please participate in this workshop
0:29:36.650,0:29:40.470
to get the new savetheinternet[br]as best as we can. Thank you!
0:29:40.470,0:29:52.430
applause
0:29:52.430,0:29:55.090
Herald: Okay, we gonna do something[br]unorthodox today. We gonna have
0:29:55.090,0:29:59.460
the next talk right onto this one.[br]Please – flying change of people
0:29:59.460,0:30:03.460
who wanna come and leave! Because[br]the two talks are related we’ll have
0:30:03.460,0:30:07.400
Ten minutes of Q&A after the next talk.
0:30:07.400,0:30:11.370
So here’s – das ist jetzt eine[br]Schwietzer Angelegenheit –
0:30:11.370,0:30:15.320
this is the gentleman from[br]Switzerland, Fredy Kuenzler!
0:30:15.320,0:30:18.460
Fredy: He speaks Fribourg dialect![br]laughter
0:30:18.460,0:30:25.260
Can you believe that? Fribourg –[br]and pretty good actually!
0:30:25.260,0:30:30.000
Herald: We both agree that buffering[br]sucks, so please, let me have a hand
0:30:30.000,0:30:32.150
for – Fredy Kuenzler![br]applause
0:30:32.150,0:30:40.530
applause
0:30:40.530,0:30:44.910
Fredy Kuenzler: Thank you! My name[br]is Fredy Kuenzler. Gruetzi mitanand’!
0:30:44.910,0:30:50.620
I was thinking whether to have the[br]talk in Swiss German or in English…
0:30:50.620,0:30:52.660
Herald: Sorry, excuse me for a moment -[br]Fredy: Never mind.
0:30:52.660,0:30:57.240
Herald: This is unorthodo… when you[br]leave, please leave in peace, and quiet.
0:30:57.240,0:31:00.520
Okay? And give him a chance.[br]Fredy: laughs
0:31:00.520,0:31:03.920
So Swiss German would be an option for me.
0:31:03.920,0:31:10.510
English, because you know the[br]Swiss don’t speak proper German.
0:31:10.510,0:31:18.830
My six year old digital native
0:31:18.830,0:31:23.420
is telling people rather proud that his[br]Dad invented the fastest internet
0:31:23.420,0:31:26.690
in Switzerland. It’s called Fiber7.
0:31:26.690,0:31:31.630
applause[br]Thank you.
0:31:31.630,0:31:36.280
While we went to Greece for vacation,[br]I was in a target conflict,
0:31:36.280,0:31:42.370
because I had to explain him[br]why he couldn’t watch YouTube.
0:31:42.370,0:31:47.200
I mean Greece, you know[br]it’s maybe a bit difficult,
0:31:47.200,0:31:51.550
but as a matter of fact, here[br]in Hamburg it’s not any better.
0:31:51.550,0:31:58.020
I’m next door in the hotel InterCity[br]and they offer “free Wi-Fi”
0:31:58.020,0:32:02.290
with 256 kbit/s.[br]laughter
0:32:02.290,0:32:07.950
If you want 5 Mbit internet,[br]you pay 8 Euros extra,
0:32:07.950,0:32:13.690
per day. So this is where we are in 2015.
0:32:13.690,0:32:18.060
A few words about me: I’m[br]married, one son as I said.
0:32:18.060,0:32:23.640
He was born 2009. He was[br]able to unlock the iPhone
0:32:23.640,0:32:27.900
with the age of 17 months.[br]No one showed him how.
0:32:27.900,0:32:31.150
laughter and mumbling
0:32:31.150,0:32:35.470
My early connection[br]with digital techniques
0:32:35.470,0:32:41.980
was about 1978 when I was[br]playing with these chips 7400.
0:32:41.980,0:32:47.190
Who knows them? Raise[br]your hand. – Few, thanks.
0:32:47.190,0:32:53.090
Later on I did an apprenticeship as a[br]Fernmelde- und Elektronikapparatemonteur.
0:32:53.090,0:32:59.500
And I started to do[br]IT business about 1991.
0:32:59.500,0:33:05.080
Then 1996 – almost 20 years ago –[br]we started with Linux stuff.
0:33:05.080,0:33:10.800
My first Linux was Suse 4.2.
0:33:10.800,0:33:15.410
In the year 2000 we started with Init7[br]and later on I became president
0:33:15.410,0:33:20.500
of the SwissIX association.[br]This is an association
0:33:20.500,0:33:26.040
which runs an Internet Exchange. I had[br]also my time in a startup called Zattoo.
0:33:26.040,0:33:31.250
It’s a network architecture[br]OTT IP Television.
0:33:31.250,0:33:36.360
Besides, I need a hobby, so I’m also[br]a politician for the Social Democrats
0:33:36.360,0:33:41.370
in my city parliament, already 8 years.
0:33:41.370,0:33:45.600
Then I started with the other[br]hobby, Fiber7 as you know.
0:33:45.600,0:33:50.280
Oh besides, I was also working[br]in an internet expert group
0:33:50.280,0:33:55.340
of the Social Democrats Switzerland.[br]There the internet paper
0:33:55.340,0:34:01.140
was adopted earlier this month
0:34:01.140,0:34:06.710
by the national Delegiertenversammlung.[br]I don’t know what this is in English.
0:34:06.710,0:34:12.690
So, Buffering sucks! Ladies and Gentlemen,[br]this talk is not about Deutsche Telekom.
0:34:12.690,0:34:18.490
It’s not about peering. It’s not about[br]interconnection. It’s about these
0:34:18.490,0:34:24.580
thousands and millions of youngsters out[br]there which want to watch YouTube
0:34:24.580,0:34:28.810
in HD resolution without buffering.
0:34:28.810,0:34:35.389
So let’s quickly look at the reason why[br]YouTube and all the other video buffer.
0:34:35.389,0:34:40.668
It’s usually lack of bandwidth.[br]If you have a 2 Meg DSL
0:34:40.668,0:34:47.909
or if you have an InterCity[br]free Wi-Fi with 250 kilobits;
0:34:47.909,0:34:55.409
so HD video is not possible.[br]Sometimes they have old PCs,
0:34:55.409,0:34:59.400
so CPU power is an issue –[br]these days no longer relevant.
0:34:59.400,0:35:03.900
Wi-Fi quality sucks sometimes.[br]This is rather an individual issue.
0:35:03.900,0:35:08.010
And sometimes we have an over-subscription
0:35:08.010,0:35:13.010
of the shared node –[br]mainly in cable networks.
0:35:13.010,0:35:16.860
Streaming source can be too far[br]away. If you stream from the U.S.,
0:35:16.860,0:35:22.860
it doesn’t really go well.[br]That’s why we have so many CDN,
0:35:22.860,0:35:28.650
Content Delivery Network systems,[br]close to the end users.
0:35:28.650,0:35:32.290
Then adaptive streaming[br]can be an advantage,
0:35:32.290,0:35:37.460
but also disadvantage. You cannot[br]turn it off. When you watch HD
0:35:37.460,0:35:42.190
and the connection sucks[br]you just cannot keep it on HD.
0:35:42.190,0:35:48.240
It just drops to SD or lower[br]resolution. It works, yes.
0:35:48.240,0:35:54.250
But Claire Underwood in[br]low-res is not so cool.
0:35:54.250,0:35:58.810
Routing algorithm issues – sometimes[br]it’s a mismatch of client and server.
0:35:58.810,0:36:04.340
If your client is assigned to the[br]wrong CDN server, then it’s also slow.
0:36:04.340,0:36:08.340
Anycast routing is a trick sometimes.[br]And, last but not least
0:36:08.340,0:36:15.270
and the most important thing:[br]It’s over-subscribed interconnections.
0:36:15.270,0:36:20.020
We go back quickly to the[br]old days. The caller pays.
0:36:20.020,0:36:25.089
When you call your mother-in-law[br]and you talk with her
0:36:25.089,0:36:30.900
– well, she talks to you for 45 minutes[br]and you say hello and goodbye –
0:36:30.900,0:36:36.550
you still pay the call.[br]laughter
0:36:36.550,0:36:41.470
So with YouTube it’s not any different.
0:36:41.470,0:36:47.070
You click YouTube and then YouTube[br]talks to you for hours maybe
0:36:47.070,0:36:52.340
and then you say goodbye, basically.[br]So is the broadband customer
0:36:52.340,0:36:57.270
calling the YouTube server or is it vice[br]versa? Is the YouTube server calling
0:36:57.270,0:37:03.630
the broadband customer? Probably[br]it’s the broadband customer who calls.
0:37:03.630,0:37:08.930
But still the data is flowing[br]from the server to the client.
0:37:08.930,0:37:13.970
But the client is causing the traffic,[br]because he is requesting the traffic.
0:37:13.970,0:37:22.670
And if we look at the structure of[br]the internet, we have basically…
0:37:22.670,0:37:28.200
(doesn’t work here, red[br]button is dead, never mind!)
0:37:28.200,0:37:31.770
…we have the end user to the right.
0:37:31.770,0:37:35.130
We have – here is the provider network
0:37:35.130,0:37:41.130
and the end user is only connected[br]to the provider’s network.
0:37:41.130,0:37:46.250
On the left side we have all the content[br]in the internet. We have the media
0:37:46.250,0:37:52.220
and video and streaming[br]and Torrent and… you name it.
0:37:52.220,0:37:59.870
But there is always only one[br]way going to the end user.
0:37:59.870,0:38:08.620
It’s the yellow marked interconnection[br]points and there is no way around them.
0:38:08.620,0:38:17.000
This basically means, the provider[br]can monopolize the end customer.
0:38:17.000,0:38:22.560
At least as long [as] he is[br]connected or subscribed.
0:38:22.560,0:38:26.100
There is no alternative way.
0:38:26.100,0:38:31.210
So this gives the provider
0:38:31.210,0:38:34.720
a position of power.
0:38:34.720,0:38:38.120
On the other hand these[br]interconnection points used to be
0:38:38.120,0:38:44.040
– for a long period of time – so called[br]Zero Settlement interconnections,
0:38:44.040,0:38:47.930
and they are basically the[br]foundation of the internet.
0:38:47.930,0:38:51.630
Without Zero Settlement peering,[br]without interconnection
0:38:51.630,0:38:56.160
the internet wouldn’t exist as we know it.
0:38:56.160,0:39:00.430
The broadband provider,[br]mainly the incumbent,
0:39:00.430,0:39:03.910
the ex-monopolist,[br]or large cable operators,
0:39:03.910,0:39:07.240
they tend to become more[br]and more restrictive
0:39:07.240,0:39:12.210
to provide sufficient[br]interconnection capacity.
0:39:12.210,0:39:16.330
Not upgrading interconnection[br]to the requirements
0:39:16.330,0:39:23.590
is very common these days and[br]it’s a passive aggressive behaviour.
0:39:23.590,0:39:31.080
So many providers – to name[br]a few: Deutsche Telekom –
0:39:31.080,0:39:34.040
they just do nothing. They just wait.
0:39:34.040,0:39:38.480
And the end customers are suffering.[br]Buffering is very common, especially
0:39:38.480,0:39:43.950
during prime-time.[br]This is basically what the topic of…
0:39:43.950,0:39:48.620
…the main topic of this conference is:[br]It’s a gated community. The provider
0:39:48.620,0:39:57.010
creates a gated community[br]for his own end customers.
0:39:57.010,0:40:01.140
So as I said before:
0:40:01.140,0:40:05.520
The data is flowing from the server,[br]from the video server to the end customer.
0:40:05.520,0:40:09.660
It’s about 50 times more[br]traffic flowing to the client
0:40:09.660,0:40:15.740
and the usual traffic ratio we have
0:40:15.740,0:40:20.580
for a broadband provider is 1:5[br]or 1:10. So they’re pulling about
0:40:20.580,0:40:26.060
10 times more traffic[br]towards the end customer.
0:40:26.060,0:40:32.290
Then we have this interconnection[br]policy. So they don’t do anything.
0:40:32.290,0:40:37.360
As I said before, they just over-subscribe
0:40:37.360,0:40:43.010
the existing interconnection.[br]And if you want to upgrade you have to
0:40:43.010,0:40:48.010
have a traffic ratio of[br]about 1:1.5 to 1.3.
0:40:48.010,0:40:53.760
But no video stream service[br]can deliver traffic
0:40:53.760,0:41:00.000
and also maintain the traffic ratio.[br]No content provider can.
0:41:00.000,0:41:04.290
So all they can do is: They can[br]pay money to get upgraded.
0:41:04.290,0:41:08.810
And if they don’t pay,[br]data is stuck in congestion
0:41:08.810,0:41:18.530
and their clients are suffering,[br]seeing the buffering sign.
0:41:18.530,0:41:22.810
Large broadband providers, such as[br]the incumbents and cable providers,
0:41:22.810,0:41:28.860
they want to get paid twice.[br]They are able to force the money
0:41:28.860,0:41:32.980
due to the temporary[br]monopoly – as I explained.
0:41:32.980,0:41:36.860
And they can ask money from the end[br]customer and on the other hand
0:41:36.860,0:41:40.450
also from the content.
0:41:40.450,0:41:44.190
This is called double-sided market.[br]And if they don’t pay,
0:41:44.190,0:41:49.750
the content is not paying, this is what we[br]see. And sometimes – as a side note –
0:41:49.750,0:41:55.470
the end customer pays,[br]but still sees this.
0:41:55.470,0:41:59.540
But IP interconnection would be cheap.
0:41:59.540,0:42:04.030
The business cost per broadband[br]customer is just a few cents per month.
0:42:04.030,0:42:10.220
And if the provider would invest[br]this, people would be happy.
0:42:10.220,0:42:17.170
On top content providers are easy to deal[br]for peering or provide cache servers etc.
0:42:17.170,0:42:23.620
So please talk to our community[br]fellows of Akamai, Apple,
0:42:23.620,0:42:28.800
Amazon, Facebook, Google,[br]Limelight, Netflix.
0:42:28.800,0:42:36.110
T is not Telekom, it’s Twitch.[br]And Zattoo, and a lot of others.
0:42:36.110,0:42:40.280
So traffic congestion is costly.
0:42:40.280,0:42:45.280
I took a random Google[br]search and was looking for
0:42:45.280,0:42:51.270
how much traffic is actually costing.[br]And “Die Welt” showed the result:
0:42:51.270,0:42:59.780
“Staus kosten in jedem[br]Haushalt 509€/Jahr”.
0:42:59.780,0:43:05.310
So my assumption was:[br]If traffic jam is costing money,
0:43:05.310,0:43:09.120
then probably data traffic jam[br]is also costing some money.
0:43:09.120,0:43:19.140
But I figured that no one was[br]really exploring that field, yet.
0:43:19.140,0:43:22.960
So I thought I’m going to do[br]a little “Milchbüechlirächnig”
0:43:22.960,0:43:26.430
laughter
0:43:26.430,0:43:31.530
applause
0:43:31.530,0:43:37.600
When I was a child, the milk man came[br]every morning and we just put our order
0:43:37.600,0:43:43.330
into the Milchbüechli and he put the milk[br]into the box outside of the house.
0:43:43.330,0:43:51.130
By the end of the month, we went to the[br]shop and paid our Milchbüechlirächnig.
0:43:51.130,0:43:55.210
So this is my quick calculation: We have[br]about 30 million broadband connections
0:43:55.210,0:44:03.150
in Germany. I assume that everybody is[br]waiting for one minute accumulated
0:44:03.150,0:44:07.360
while watching Netflix, YouTube,[br]whatever. Probably this is far too less.
0:44:07.360,0:44:13.030
Who thinks one minute is fine, or –[br]who thinks one minute is not enough?
0:44:13.030,0:44:18.700
Oh, ok, so let’s stick with one[br]minute for the calculation.
0:44:18.700,0:44:23.150
And I also assumed that 5€ / hour waiting
0:44:23.150,0:44:30.490
is a good salary. So if you[br]think, 5€ is not enough,
0:44:30.490,0:44:35.300
you can adapt the calculation.[br]This is called “Reservationslohn”.
0:44:35.300,0:44:39.850
I have no clue what it means,[br]but this was on Wikipedia,
0:44:39.850,0:44:43.750
for time when you take[br]a job or refuse a job,
0:44:43.750,0:44:48.900
how much would be the[br]value for the spare time.
0:44:48.900,0:44:54.540
So this is my calculation: If you wait one[br]minute per day, this is 6 hours per year.
0:44:54.540,0:44:58.770
If you multiply this with the 5€,
0:44:58.770,0:45:09.520
every broadband customer[br]would lose 30€ per year.
0:45:09.520,0:45:14.950
This sums up[br]– with 30 million broadband subscribers -
0:45:14.950,0:45:24.130
to 900 million Euros per year. This is the[br]economic damage in Germany per year.
0:45:24.130,0:45:30.810
applause
0:45:30.810,0:45:36.030
As we can assume that a large[br]part of the buffering is caused
0:45:36.030,0:45:39.480
by the insufficient interconnection,[br]especially during prime-time
0:45:39.480,0:45:44.230
when everybody wants to watch[br]Netflix. This is also a result
0:45:44.230,0:45:51.240
of the restrictive peering policy of the[br]incumbent and large cable operators
0:45:51.240,0:45:55.440
and the ability for them to[br]force some extra money
0:45:55.440,0:45:59.560
out of these double sided[br]market power as I explained.
0:45:59.560,0:46:03.800
They probably would gain a few[br]millions. I don’t have exact figures
0:46:03.800,0:46:09.110
but I assume it’s probably[br]some 10..20..30 millions per year,
0:46:09.110,0:46:15.530
they could force through[br]this market power.
0:46:15.530,0:46:19.930
On the other hand we have the damage[br]of 900 Million Euro per year and I mean
0:46:19.930,0:46:27.550
this is like a – how do you[br]say that? – Imbalance.
0:46:27.550,0:46:32.200
So my conclusion in democratic[br]countries like [in] Western Europe:
0:46:32.200,0:46:36.320
The economic gain of a multibillion[br]company at the expense
0:46:36.320,0:46:42.460
of the general public is[br]commonly not tolerated.
0:46:42.460,0:46:47.940
The next question is basically following[br]the previous talk of Thomas:
0:46:47.940,0:46:52.590
When will the regulators wake up[br]and force every market participant
0:46:52.590,0:46:58.080
to cooperative peering and interconnection[br]because the end user is suffering,
0:46:58.080,0:47:01.930
the public is suffering.[br]Zero Settlement peering – as I explained -
0:47:01.930,0:47:06.770
is rather common.[br]Of course the incumbent,
0:47:06.770,0:47:11.550
the Deutsche Telekom lobbyists[br]would tell otherwise, this is clear.
0:47:11.550,0:47:16.290
The unbalanced traffic should no[br]longer be used to refuse peering;
0:47:16.290,0:47:20.730
and also disputes about the[br]interconnection should be resolved
0:47:20.730,0:47:28.300
rather quick. My case against[br]Swisscom is taking years already
0:47:28.300,0:47:31.840
and still no end… no light[br]at the end of the tunnel.
0:47:31.840,0:47:37.250
Then, last but not least we should[br]have broadband providers…
0:47:37.250,0:47:48.490
must be committed to the interests[br]of their own end user customer base.
0:47:48.490,0:47:54.510
As I said, Telekom managed to get paid[br]twice because of their market power;
0:47:54.510,0:47:59.040
and other Telecoms, such as[br]Telecom Hungaria or Swisscom,
0:47:59.040,0:48:04.590
they use Deutsche Telekom and[br]their market power as a leverage
0:48:04.590,0:48:09.060
to force their also[br]restrictive peering policy;
0:48:09.060,0:48:12.820
and the regulators so far don’t do[br]much. I quote here Marc Furrer,
0:48:12.820,0:48:18.010
this is the chief of ComCom Switzerland:[br]“Nur ein fauler Regulator
0:48:18.010,0:48:21.740
ist ein guter Regulator”.[br]laughing
0:48:21.740,0:48:31.710
Thank you! Questions?[br]applause
0:48:31.710,0:48:37.280
Herald: Okay, thank you Fredy; and[br]let’s have Thomas back up on stage
0:48:37.280,0:48:40.850
and we’re gonna take questions, please.
0:48:40.850,0:48:44.470
There is actually more than the[br][number of] mics I said before,
0:48:44.470,0:48:49.490
there is two right up on the top[br]and there is three in each aisle.
0:48:49.490,0:48:53.840
So if you please line up if you have[br]any questions to ask; and please
0:48:53.840,0:48:58.250
speak into the mic, we need[br]your questions on tape,
0:48:58.250,0:49:03.120
and those who are leaving[br]now: Do it silently please.
0:49:03.120,0:49:10.300
Okay, first question, over there!
0:49:10.300,0:49:14.940
Question: I have a question for[br]Thomas: From your talk it sounds
0:49:14.940,0:49:18.600
like you did a lot of work. Can you[br]tell us a little bit about the budgeting,
0:49:18.600,0:49:22.200
that goes into having a team like that?
0:49:22.200,0:49:27.410
T: Yeah, so, SaveTheInternet[br]is a coalition of 12 NGOs
0:49:27.410,0:49:31.910
which have all their independent[br]budget. There is no fixed budget
0:49:31.910,0:49:35.940
for the work that we have[br]been doing as a whole.
0:49:35.940,0:49:39.711
All of them have transparency[br]reports. So I can not really speak
0:49:39.711,0:49:46.850
for the budget of EDRI or accessnow. The[br]organization where I am based in Austria
0:49:46.850,0:49:52.230
got a grant from the media democracy[br]foundation from 10.000€;
0:49:52.230,0:49:57.370
and money from Netflix, 10.000€ also.
0:49:57.370,0:50:00.701
And we used both for development[br]and paying for the faxes. Because
0:50:00.701,0:50:04.940
in the second round of the fax tool[br]the provider that it was referring to
0:50:04.940,0:50:08.210
was no longer paying.
0:50:08.210,0:50:13.780
Otherwise the funding in general about[br]Digital Rights in Europe is awfully low.
0:50:13.780,0:50:18.470
So if you compare it to the U.S.[br]where you had double-digit millions
0:50:18.470,0:50:23.619
going into the lobbying it is[br]ridiculous what resources we have
0:50:23.619,0:50:28.800
here in Europe; and we are thinking[br]about making a donation tool
0:50:28.800,0:50:33.070
for the new SaveTheInternet;[br]but again, that’s complicated
0:50:33.070,0:50:37.740
because you have 12 NGOs with[br]very different activity scales.
0:50:37.740,0:50:41.280
Like some of them do a lot, others[br]not so much. So how would you divide
0:50:41.280,0:50:45.180
the money? These are unresolved questions,[br]that we are working on right now.
0:50:45.180,0:50:48.700
If you wanna support us with independent[br]funding, then just donate to
0:50:48.700,0:50:55.480
the individual organizations.[br]EDRI, Initiative für Netzfreiheit,
0:50:55.480,0:50:58.890
are probably the ones I would mention[br]most, because they have done
0:50:58.890,0:51:02.540
most of the work; accessnow as well,[br]but they generally have a lot of funding
0:51:02.540,0:51:04.700
from the U.S., so I don’t think[br]they need it that much.
0:51:04.700,0:51:08.282
Q: But to summarize, I saw a picture of[br]your team. I saw all the work you did.
0:51:08.282,0:51:13.650
You did that for 20.000€?[br]T: No. I never got a Cent.
0:51:13.650,0:51:17.310
I was paid by EDRI for 4 months[br]when I was working in Brussels
0:51:17.310,0:51:20.880
within BEREC for the first reading;[br]but otherwise this was mostly free time.
0:51:20.880,0:51:25.770
I got my expenses covered for travel[br]but other than that I am doing this
0:51:25.770,0:51:36.530
in my spare time. Also now I’m employed…[br]applause
0:51:36.530,0:51:39.410
…I work for Data Protection NGOs,[br]so they are allowing me to do
0:51:39.410,0:51:43.260
a lot of my stuff also for Net Neutrality.
0:51:43.260,0:51:48.690
Herald: We’re all elephants. We do it[br]for peanuts. Okay, No.1 go ahead!
0:51:48.690,0:51:55.200
Mic 1: Yeah, hello! Hi Thomas, thanks[br]a lot for your work, that’s great.
0:51:55.200,0:51:59.450
I have a question about the involvement[br]of the business, the angels
0:51:59.450,0:52:03.200
and the companies: What is the[br]reason, what do you think
0:52:03.200,0:52:08.660
why they came so late into[br]this discussion in Germany.
0:52:08.660,0:52:12.800
What probably can we do to change[br]this in the future because
0:52:12.800,0:52:17.630
I think that’s a… they[br]are great allies in this fight.
0:52:17.630,0:52:21.430
Thomas: That’s… you’re asking[br]exactly the right question.
0:52:21.430,0:52:25.810
Sadly, in Europe you have no[br]organized voice for startups
0:52:25.810,0:52:30.250
or for SMEs when it comes[br]to Digital Rights issues;
0:52:30.250,0:52:33.740
and you would have to work with them[br]to get them involved in the debate.
0:52:33.740,0:52:37.480
They were really late to the party[br]and then, again, mostly activated
0:52:37.480,0:52:44.230
through U.S. networks. So the connection[br]between the civil rights scene here
0:52:44.230,0:52:48.920
and the business scene, particularly the[br]one which is organized in Brussels
0:52:48.920,0:52:53.619
with European umbrellas is very weak.[br]So everything you can do there
0:52:53.619,0:52:57.850
to strengthen this connection[br]would be great.
0:52:57.850,0:53:00.940
But I don’t have those business[br]contacts. I got a few people involved
0:53:00.940,0:53:04.360
in the first reading stuff but we’ll[br]definitely need more people that
0:53:04.360,0:53:08.840
act as multipliers to get more[br]companies involved, particularly now
0:53:08.840,0:53:13.280
when we enter into a new phase[br]with the BEREC guidelines.
0:53:13.280,0:53:17.530
We no longer need the loud arguments of…
0:53:17.530,0:53:21.830
…of many people, we need more the[br]arguments from the business side,
0:53:21.830,0:53:26.190
from the universities, from those people[br]who run networks. These arguments are
0:53:26.190,0:53:29.610
better suited to make[br]a difference with the regulators.
0:53:29.610,0:53:35.990
Fredy: And to add: Don’t underestimate[br]the influence of the lobbies,
0:53:35.990,0:53:40.680
of the big names, the Telecoms[br]and the liberty globals…
0:53:40.680,0:53:46.190
They have a lot of money and they[br]try to influence the politicians
0:53:46.190,0:53:51.490
as good as they can. They do[br]a good job from their perspective.
0:53:51.490,0:53:57.760
Thomas: You can be sure that the Telecoms[br]will have people for all 28 regulators,
0:53:57.760,0:54:01.520
now continuously lobbying for an[br]upcoming 9 months. The question is:
0:54:01.520,0:54:05.610
Who is in our team?
0:54:05.610,0:54:11.230
Herald: OK. Thank you. Is there a question[br]from the internet? While we’re at it?
0:54:11.230,0:54:16.250
Signal Angel: Yes, there is a question,[br]it is: Whether peering providers
0:54:16.250,0:54:19.440
should differentiate between[br]virtual private network traffic
0:54:19.440,0:54:23.010
and public traffic; and where is the line
0:54:23.010,0:54:30.730
between internal network[br]and the public internet?
0:54:30.730,0:54:36.560
Fredy: What should I say… this is[br]difficult question, I mean… Basically,
0:54:36.560,0:54:43.350
if you over-commit your backbone[br]then there is always plenty of traffic…
0:54:43.350,0:54:49.710
or plenty of capacity. So there is…[br]there shouldn’t be any differentiation.
0:54:49.710,0:54:56.710
Networks should provide enough[br]capacity and then we’re good.
0:54:56.710,0:55:00.700
A common argument from the big names:
0:55:00.700,0:55:06.730
“Oh we are investing millions and millions[br]and millions in broadband expansion”,
0:55:06.730,0:55:12.350
but unfortunately they stop investing[br]right at the end of their own backbone
0:55:12.350,0:55:17.420
so they don’t invest any money[br]beyond their little percentage
0:55:17.420,0:55:24.240
of the total investment[br]for their interconnections.
0:55:24.240,0:55:28.730
Herald: Okay, there is[br]another question at No.1?
0:55:28.730,0:55:33.220
Mic 1: I have a question about buffering:[br]So the most of the content in the web is
0:55:33.220,0:55:38.140
delivered over TCP/IP and…[br]will changing the media
0:55:38.140,0:55:43.450
to something like UDP which has[br]lower overhead over TCP/IP;
0:55:43.450,0:55:47.020
will that change the situation?
0:55:47.020,0:55:48.400
Fredy: Not really.[br]Mic 1: No?
0:55:48.400,0:55:53.960
Fredy: No. It won’t help. I mean[br]packet loss is packet loss
0:55:53.960,0:56:01.530
regardless whether it’s TCP or it’s UDP.
0:56:01.530,0:56:07.220
Herald: OK, that was a short answer. Next[br]question please. Please talk into the mic.
0:56:07.220,0:56:10.630
Mic: So when I came here, this[br]year, I had the impression that
0:56:10.630,0:56:15.030
at digital subscriber line connections
0:56:15.030,0:56:19.630
not only bandwidth is bad but also the
0:56:19.630,0:56:23.900
ping [time] gets up way high.[br]Of course, I mean,
0:56:23.900,0:56:28.250
at home I have Fiber7 nowadays[br]so I just thought I got spoiled
0:56:28.250,0:56:33.380
by fiber connections but I noticed[br]that ping times went up
0:56:33.380,0:56:38.490
from, well, couple of years ago 60-80 ms
0:56:38.490,0:56:42.490
from sites in your neighborhood[br]more or less
0:56:42.490,0:56:48.620
to nowadays 80-160ms.[br]Where is the problem there?
0:56:48.620,0:56:52.310
Fredy: Well, the latency[br]is directly related
0:56:52.310,0:56:56.160
if the provider is not delivering[br]enough bandwidth,
0:56:56.160,0:57:03.210
then ping goes up that’s[br]a normal behaviour of TCP.
0:57:03.210,0:57:08.240
Mic: So the problem is also[br]at the interconnection sites?
0:57:08.240,0:57:13.360
Fredy: Probably yes, most likely,[br]you can find out if you do traceroute.
0:57:13.360,0:57:19.220
Then you see where… well,[br]there is a long presentation
0:57:19.220,0:57:24.660
how to interpret traceroute properly.[br]If you look for “Nanog traceroute”
0:57:24.660,0:57:31.470
you should find this lecture. But that[br]would probably give some indication.
0:57:31.470,0:57:35.180
Mic: Alright, thank you.[br]Herald: Thank you. Next question from
0:57:35.180,0:57:39.070
the internet, just in between and[br]then we’ll go back, go ahead.
0:57:39.070,0:57:43.220
Signal Angel: “Is Netflix a gated[br]community by itself?” and
0:57:43.220,0:57:46.520
“Are you sure that their interest[br]will align with the movement
0:57:46.520,0:57:52.050
of net neutrality in the long run?”
0:57:52.050,0:57:56.590
Fredy: We should differentiate[br]between Netflix content
0:57:56.590,0:58:02.180
and Netflix interconnections. So for[br]the content I probably would say:
0:58:02.180,0:58:07.540
Yes. But I am not the expert. This would[br]be then layer 7 in the OSI model.
0:58:07.540,0:58:11.840
I am talking here on layer 3,[br]this is content agnostic.
0:58:11.840,0:58:17.070
Netflix, they are one of the good[br]guys because they really help
0:58:17.070,0:58:24.170
to deliver the packets. I know[br]them personally a few fellows
0:58:24.170,0:58:30.000
from the peering community.[br]They are the good guys, definitely.
0:58:30.000,0:58:33.390
Thomas: Just also to answer this[br]question for the European debate,
0:58:33.390,0:58:37.400
Netflix was one of the good guys in the[br]U.S. and they also supported of course
0:58:37.400,0:58:41.119
the European movement. But again, they are[br]so big that I wouldn’t really trust them
0:58:41.119,0:58:45.410
as an ally because they could[br]also pay, they could also survive
0:58:45.410,0:58:50.900
in a double sided market and for them[br]in the growing emerging markets
0:58:50.900,0:58:55.869
like Europe where they just have started[br]it’s probably risky to allow for this
0:58:55.869,0:59:02.030
new type of anti net neutrality business[br]models; but in the consumer side
0:59:02.030,0:59:06.530
where net neutrality is seen as an end[br]user issue I think so far their interests
0:59:06.530,0:59:10.960
mostly align. On interconnection they[br]have their own interests, of course.
0:59:10.960,0:59:14.820
Fredy: So I can say: Netflix is[br]definitely paying Deutsche Telekom,
0:59:14.820,0:59:18.790
otherwise no single Deutsche Telekom user
0:59:18.790,0:59:24.050
would be able to watch any[br]movie on Netflix! So! For sure!
0:59:24.050,0:59:27.220
Herald: Okay, we are short for[br]time so please, last 2 questions.
0:59:27.220,0:59:31.001
One, no.2 first. Keep it short,[br]please. Talk into the mic.
0:59:31.001,0:59:35.800
Mic 2: Regarding the first talk: What[br]is the… do you have an explanation for
0:59:35.800,0:59:41.600
the behaviour of the European Commission[br]in behave of the net neutrality debate?
0:59:41.600,0:59:45.560
I especially think of the behaviour[br]of Guenther Oettinger
0:59:45.560,0:59:51.780
who repeatedly said his ridiculous lie
0:59:51.780,0:59:57.340
of “net neutrality kills” and[br]he repeated it again and again
0:59:57.340,1:00:03.920
even if there was no reason[br]behind it. And do you
1:00:03.920,1:00:08.560
have an explanation for this behavior[br]of the Commission, and Juncker and this?
1:00:08.560,1:00:12.090
Thomas: For that argument, we had this[br]great YouTube video “net neutrality kills”.
1:00:12.090,1:00:16.040
If you search it you will find it or[br]“Netzneutralität tötet” in German.
1:00:16.040,1:00:19.820
That deconstructs this argument of[br]Oettinger. But in general, and you can
1:00:19.820,1:00:23.910
go back to the previous commissioner[br]Neelie Kroes that I showed.
1:00:23.910,1:00:26.930
Our sole suspicion is that the deal[br]was that the telecom industry
1:00:26.930,1:00:30.200
has to give up a little bit of their[br]profits when it comes to Roaming,
1:00:30.200,1:00:33.940
but on the other side they gain a lot[br]of future profits on the abolishment
1:00:33.940,1:00:37.480
of net neutrality. And so it was like:[br]“Okay, we need a populist argument”,
1:00:37.480,1:00:41.860
Neelie Kroes also needs a quick[br]win at the end of her career.
1:00:41.860,1:00:46.960
And this was again like you take[br]a little bit there and put it there
1:00:46.960,1:00:51.560
for the Telecoms industry. And Oettinger[br]is a big industrial favour guy,
1:00:51.560,1:00:54.930
he is always for big business.
1:00:54.930,1:00:58.560
Herald: Okay, short for time,[br]last question, No.1.
1:00:58.560,1:01:03.130
Mic 1: Hi, so what strategy should an ISP[br]use when their capacity on their backbones
1:01:03.130,1:01:09.270
is fully loaded? Like first-in-first-out[br]or what is your idea about that, because
1:01:09.270,1:01:13.190
the capacity is limited, so when there is[br]so much traffic that everything is stuck.
1:01:13.190,1:01:15.380
Fredy: Upgrade![br]Thomas: Yes, invest in the network!
1:01:15.380,1:01:21.580
Fredy: I mean, sorry, a 10G port is now[br]some 3000€ including optic and cross
1:01:21.580,1:01:27.290
connect. It’s not that much. Upgrade!
1:01:27.290,1:01:30.240
Herald: Okay, thank you![br]Let’s have a hand!
1:01:30.240,1:01:32.420
applause
1:01:32.420,1:01:38.250
Fredy Kuenzler, Thomas Lohninger.[br]Thank you very much! And goodbye.
1:01:38.250,1:01:43.920
postroll music
1:01:43.920,1:01:49.261
Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de[br]in the year 2016. Join and help us!