[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.58,0:00:18.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: We're in the museum of modern art
Dialogue: 0,0:00:18.42,0:00:21.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we're on the 4th floor in the rooms devoted to abstract expressionism
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.100,0:00:27.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we're standing in front of Mark Rothko's No. 3/No. 13
Dialogue: 0,0:00:27.83,0:00:30.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which dates to 1949
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.46,0:00:33.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Those abstract expressionists love to {\i1}not{\i0} name their paintings
Dialogue: 0,0:00:33.66,0:00:35.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in fact, it's sort of a modernist problem
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.74,0:00:37.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: It is, it is
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.13,0:00:39.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Composition number...blah
Dialogue: 0,0:00:39.66,0:00:41.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Well, they didn't want to close down meaning, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.54,0:00:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: I understand, that ambiguity is incredibly important
Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.24,0:00:45.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for artists in the 20th century.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.50,0:00:48.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: It is. But I think the weird No. 3/No. 13 part
Dialogue: 0,0:00:48.33,0:00:53.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wonder if that has to do with the curators trying to figure out really what this thing was called
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.13,0:00:54.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and not being sure about it
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.33,0:00:55.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Yeah, that could be it.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:55.47,0:00:56.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: I have no idea, actually.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.33,0:00:59.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: You know, it's interesting cause Rothko is an artist that
Dialogue: 0,0:00:59.26,0:01:03.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even at a time when I a little bit put off by abstract painting
Dialogue: 0,0:01:03.83,0:01:05.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I always loved the Rothko's
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.97,0:01:10.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They have a kind of brooding heaviness about them
Dialogue: 0,0:01:10.33,0:01:12.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: A gorgeous melancholy
Dialogue: 0,0:01:12.00,0:01:12.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Yeah!
Dialogue: 0,0:01:12.83,0:01:17.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I don't think I even knew why it made me feel that way
Dialogue: 0,0:01:17.26,0:01:20.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: I think Rothko would have been really, really happy to hear you say that
Dialogue: 0,0:01:20.80,0:01:24.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think Rothko really wanted people, in fact, I seem to remember a quote where he said
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.75,0:01:27.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if people understood his paintings, they would be in tears before them
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.57,0:01:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Yeah, I think it did that to me
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.42,0:01:35.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: There's something wonderful solemn and, almost the kind of feeling you sometimes get when you look at stained glass windows in a Gothic cathedral
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.83,0:01:39.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, there's something incredibly, sort of, awesome about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.26,0:01:43.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: And so, what is it that evokes those feelings, really
Dialogue: 0,0:01:43.66,0:01:45.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, it's a lot of things
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.26,0:01:47.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's the "horizontality"
Dialogue: 0,0:01:47.75,0:01:55.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's the way that the forms are, sort of, behind and in front and have no edges and kind of hover
Dialogue: 0,0:01:55.99,0:01:59.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Until you said, "no edges" and "hover", it sounded like you were talking about a Mondrian
Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.74,0:02:04.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Yeah, but, also there's that kind of way you can kind of see underneath the paint
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.47,0:02:07.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you know sometimes it comes in front
Dialogue: 0,0:02:07.19,0:02:09.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a kind of incompleteness, and...
Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.91,0:02:11.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: A kind of finding, it's a process, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:11.87,0:02:16.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can feel almost Rothko's efforts to find his way through this
Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.25,0:02:18.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you know there's...
Dialogue: 0,0:02:18.05,0:02:19.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Now you sound like we're talking about a "Cezanne"
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.74,0:02:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Oh that's interesting.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.53,0:02:22.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think there are elements of "Cezanne" and "Mondrian" here
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.66,0:02:24.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is not what you would think of at first
Dialogue: 0,0:02:24.47,0:02:25.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: No
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.33,0:02:26.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: I think that these are paintings that
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.87,0:02:28.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you were saying that, you were moving your hands back and forth
Dialogue: 0,0:02:28.86,0:02:30.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think that this is exactly right.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.87,0:02:32.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It took me a while to figure this out about Rothko
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.93,0:02:35.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I think that these are paintings about space
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.21,0:02:36.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than color
Dialogue: 0,0:02:36.42,0:02:38.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, color is important, obviously
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.66,0:02:39.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and color is gorgeous
Dialogue: 0,0:02:39.76,0:02:42.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These are forms, these almost clouds of forms
Dialogue: 0,0:02:42.42,0:02:45.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that exist in some sort of space of their own construction
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.46,0:02:46.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: That makes sense.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:46.26,0:02:48.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: And it's interesting when you said the "horizontality"
Dialogue: 0,0:02:48.67,0:02:50.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they are horizontal paintings,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.26,0:02:51.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though...
Dialogue: 0,0:02:51.13,0:02:52.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: In that, it's a vertical image
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.16,0:02:53.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: The canvas is vertical
Dialogue: 0,0:02:53.46,0:02:54.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Yeah
Dialogue: 0,0:02:54.27,0:02:57.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: But they create an occupy space in a very important way
Dialogue: 0,0:02:57.08,0:03:00.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the heaviness of that black form,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.13,0:03:02.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that sort of cloud of black rectangle
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.64,0:03:03.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,soft at its edges
Dialogue: 0,0:03:03.66,0:03:04.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: So ominous
Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.47,0:03:06.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: And because it's high
Dialogue: 0,0:03:06.06,0:03:10.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's center of gravity is ever more powerful, do you see what I mean?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.16,0:03:12.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Well, I feel like almost it pulls me into it.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:12.43,0:03:13.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: It does, right.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.34,0:03:14.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Is that what you mean by the?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:14.42,0:03:19.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Yeah, well I think so, but it also presses down vertically on the cream white below,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.54,0:03:23.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the line of dark blackness below that and the green below that, absolutely
Dialogue: 0,0:03:23.73,0:03:25.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: It's oppressive.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:25.01,0:03:27.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: This is kind of incredible luminosity that exists here
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.58,0:03:32.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but actually according to some conservators, Rothko's colors have lost a lot of their edge
Dialogue: 0,0:03:32.86,0:03:36.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I wonder what they would have looked like, even been more luminous
Dialogue: 0,0:03:36.33,0:03:37.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: They're very vivid.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.40,0:03:40.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: So, this notion that one's not after a sort of finished product
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.100,0:03:43.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but that these are process-oriented paintings
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.25,0:03:46.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know the famous term that Rosenberg used was "Action Painting"
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.20,0:03:49.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we don't usually think about that term in relationship to Rothko
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.40,0:03:53.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there's a kind of centrality and a kind of balance that's...
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.18,0:03:57.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Well, and when you think of action you think about Pallega, you know, leaning over the...
Dialogue: 0,0:03:57.14,0:04:00.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: But I think there is a kind of "provisional-ness" and a process of finding,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.33,0:04:05.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think you're absolutely right, which is very much tied to the artist and his experience in the making of this canvas
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.94,0:04:10.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think that the "authentic-ness" of the canvas can really be embedded in that notion
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.17,0:04:13.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Of finding, of the artist exploring
Dialogue: 0,0:04:13.50,0:04:14.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Finding and feeling, yeah
Dialogue: 0,0:04:14.93,0:04:17.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that's exactly right, you know it's interesting, because...
Dialogue: 0,0:04:17.41,0:04:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: So, there's a kind of turn toward the psyche of the artist
Dialogue: 0,0:04:20.53,0:04:22.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Exactly right, this is an expression of the interior
Dialogue: 0,0:04:22.52,0:04:24.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but, sort of funny, is that in the next generation
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.75,0:04:27.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some artists will begin to disavow that
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.42,0:04:28.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Complete rejection of that
Dialogue: 0,0:04:28.86,0:04:31.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Right, because this is seen as a kind of psycho-analytic heroism
Dialogue: 0,0:04:31.46,0:04:33.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,growing out of the European surrealism, etc.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:33.86,0:04:36.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Growing out of Jung, out of Freud
Dialogue: 0,0:04:36.33,0:04:39.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but in a kind of purely American idiom, native american kind of scale
Dialogue: 0,0:04:39.58,0:04:41.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this sort of grandeur and space
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.66,0:04:46.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: Right, so use Worhol as a kind of reaction to the soup cans
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.68,0:04:48.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Absolutely, or Rauschenberger, even Jasper
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.73,0:04:54.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: That sort of statement that art is about, is {\i1}not{\i0} about some kind of inner psychic state, right
Dialogue: 0,0:04:54.80,0:05:00.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: But, this is in some ways a very beautiful and expressive kind of romanticism in that way, isn't it?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:00.20,0:05:01.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beth: I think so.