English titulky

← Homosexual In Our Society : A Panel Discussion

Získať kód na vloženie
2 Languages

Ukazujem Revíziu 4 vytvorenú 06/28/2014 od Jonathan Duelfer.

  1. Nesynchronizované
    "Mr. Coal I think we will begin with our first questions directed toward you.
  2. Nesynchronizované
    You are, I believe, the editor of the Madachine Review
  3. Nesynchronizované
    which is a publication put out by the Madachine Society
  4. Nesynchronizované
    is that correct?
  5. Nesynchronizované
    Could you tell us something about what the Madachine Society
  6. Nesynchronizované
    is, what its general purposes are?"
  7. Nesynchronizované
  8. Nesynchronizované
    the Madachine Society is an incorporated
  9. Nesynchronizované
    non-profit organization
  10. Nesynchronizované
    that is engaged in
  11. Nesynchronizované
    examining and doing something about the problems
  12. Nesynchronizované
    that face the homosexual
  13. Nesynchronizované
    in our country today."
  14. Nesynchronizované
    "Is it confined to the San Francisco area
  15. Nesynchronizované
    or is it a national publication,
  16. Nesynchronizované
    and society?"
  17. Nesynchronizované
    "Well it's a membership organization
  18. Nesynchronizované
    that is actually spread very thinly now
  19. Nesynchronizované
    from coast to coast
  20. Nesynchronizované
    The magazine is national,
  21. Nesynchronizované
    in fact it circulates also in eighteen foreign countries."
  22. Nesynchronizované
    "And, approximately
  23. Nesynchronizované
    how many members are there in the Madachine society?"
  24. Nesynchronizované
    "Right now we have
  25. Nesynchronizované
    about 117 members.
  26. Nesynchronizované
    Probably by the end of the year, that will increase to 150.
  27. Nesynchronizované
    The interest in our subject
  28. Nesynchronizované
    is very great, but people are quite loathe to join.
  29. Nesynchronizované
    All of the members are over 21 years of age."
  30. Nesynchronizované
    "But the magazine itself would have a wider coverage than that,
  31. Nesynchronizované
    I presume."
  32. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes indeed,
  33. Nesynchronizované
    it circulates at about 2,500 copies each monthly issue."
  34. Nesynchronizované
    "I see...
  35. Nesynchronizované
    and the purposes are,
  36. Nesynchronizované
    as you state them,
  37. Nesynchronizované
    to bring about a better understanding of the problem
  38. Nesynchronizované
    of the person who is classified by our society
  39. Nesynchronizované
    as a homosexual."
  40. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes, that is the primary purpose,
  41. Nesynchronizované
    actually this interest in this field that the Medachine has
  42. Nesynchronizované
    extends to inclued
  43. Nesynchronizované
    other forms of sex variation
  44. Nesynchronizované
    particularly those forms of
  45. Nesynchronizované
    varied sex behavior that we believe
  46. Nesynchronizované
    do not constitute any real harm to our social order."
  47. Nesynchronizované
    "I see...
  48. Nesynchronizované
    well there are many ways that this subject could be discussed.
  49. Nesynchronizované
    One I would say, broadly speaking, is the problem of the individual
  50. Nesynchronizované
    who falls into this category,
  51. Nesynchronizované
    and the other one would be
  52. Nesynchronizované
    the problem of what society's attitude toward that individual
  53. Nesynchronizované
    should ideally be.
  54. Nesynchronizované
    Would the members of the panel agree with that?"
  55. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes I think they would."
  56. Nesynchronizované
    "Well, supposing we start out with our doctor
  57. Nesynchronizované
    and perhaps she could tell us what the state of knowledge is,
  58. Nesynchronizované
    scientifically speaking.
  59. Nesynchronizované
    Is the homosexual classified as a medical case,
  60. Nesynchronizované
    as a psychological case?
  61. Nesynchronizované
    Let's have some general statement of what your interpretation would be
  62. Nesynchronizované
    of what produces
  63. Nesynchronizované
    that particular type of approach to life."
  64. Nesynchronizované
    "Well this is a quite controversial subject
  65. Nesynchronizované
    even in the medical profession.
  66. Nesynchronizované
    There are many, many outstanding theories
  67. Nesynchronizované
    and I think there are many individual variations
  68. Nesynchronizované
    in the interpretation of those basic theories.
  69. Nesynchronizované
    For instance, there are those positions who feel
  70. Nesynchronizované
    that this is definitely a neurotic problem.
  71. Nesynchronizované
    There are others who feel that it is a glandular problem.
  72. Nesynchronizované
    Many feel it's hereditary,
  73. Nesynchronizované
    others feel it may be caused by other factors.
  74. Nesynchronizované
    Now, for myself I feel, from the many years of work and intense
  75. Nesynchronizované
    specialization in understanding of homosexuals,
  76. Nesynchronizované
    I feel that a homosexual is, first of all,
  77. Nesynchronizované
    a human being.
  78. Nesynchronizované
    Now that may seem to be a rather elementary statement,
  79. Nesynchronizované
    but I very much believe in the individual adjustment problem
  80. Nesynchronizované
    and I think that homosexuality many have many different kinds of causes,
  81. Nesynchronizované
    and each individual case needs to be studied and interpreted in its own merits.
  82. Nesynchronizované
    And I do not look upon homosexuality as a neurotic problem,
  83. Nesynchronizované
    but more a basic personality pattern reaction.
  84. Nesynchronizované
    Just as some people prefer blonds,
  85. Nesynchronizované
    and others prefer brunettes,
  86. Nesynchronizované
    I think the fact that a given person may prefer
  87. Nesynchronizované
    a love of the same sex
  88. Nesynchronizované
    is their personal business.
  89. Nesynchronizované
    Now that doesn't mean that homosexuals may not become neurotic,
  90. Nesynchronizované
    I believe that they often do because society is so hostile to them,
  91. Nesynchronizované
    and their own families do not understand them,
  92. Nesynchronizované
    so they are subject to a great many pressures,
  93. Nesynchronizované
    and a great deal of unhappiness.
  94. Nesynchronizované
    I know that other psychiatrists would not agree with me,
  95. Nesynchronizované
    but this is my own personal interpretation."
  96. Nesynchronizované
    "I see...
  97. Nesynchronizované
    Would you say that the majority of people
  98. Nesynchronizované
    in the medical profession, or in your own profession,
  99. Nesynchronizované
    do disagree with you?
  100. Nesynchronizované
    I mean would you say that your attitude,
  101. Nesynchronizované
    in other words is a minority attitude where the medical profession is concerned?"
  102. Nesynchronizované
    "I suspect that it's pretty much a minority,
  103. Nesynchronizované
    I know several psychiatrists who have somewhat similar views,
  104. Nesynchronizované
    but I couldn't speak for the group,
  105. Nesynchronizované
    because psychiatrists are just about as individualistic as any group I know.
  106. Nesynchronizované
    And, I do believe though, that the actual viewpoint
  107. Nesynchronizované
    is pretty generally hostile,
  108. Nesynchronizované
    in that the homosexual is looked upon
  109. Nesynchronizované
    as a poor risk by psychiatrists,
  110. Nesynchronizované
    and I know for a fact..."
  111. Nesynchronizované
    "And about science, can one be hostile about science?
  112. Nesynchronizované
    Is there any acceptable medical evidence in your view
  113. Nesynchronizované
    for the fact that this is, partially, at least,
  114. Nesynchronizované
    a physical predisposition,
  115. Nesynchronizované
    rather than the psychological one?"
  116. Nesynchronizované
    "Well there has been a great deal of work done on this,
  117. Nesynchronizované
    but I don't believe that there has ever been any conclusive finding.
  118. Nesynchronizované
    I know that the attempts that I have read
  119. Nesynchronizované
    will describe all varieties,
  120. Nesynchronizované
    and you wind up by just seeing different kinds of human beings.
  121. Nesynchronizované
    That is, there will be some research which tends to show
  122. Nesynchronizované
    that homosexuals are tall and skinny.
  123. Nesynchronizované
    And other researches will show
  124. Nesynchronizované
    that they are more short and fat with feminine curves.
  125. Nesynchronizované
    And then there are others
  126. Nesynchronizované
    that show them to be muscular..."
  127. Nesynchronizované
    "Is this the glandular theory?"
  128. Nesynchronizované
    "No, I don't know that this is glandular,
  129. Nesynchronizované
    but you asked for a physical evaluation,
  130. Nesynchronizované
    and there have been studies made.
  131. Nesynchronizované
    For a long time, there has been research made on them.
  132. Nesynchronizované
    And, as far as I can read,
  133. Nesynchronizované
    they are dealing with just a broad cross-section of the population.
  134. Nesynchronizované
    And I don't think they are actually measuring the factors
  135. Nesynchronizované
    that do contribute to homosexuality."
  136. Nesynchronizované
    "And I would like the rest of you to enter into this dicussion.
  137. Nesynchronizované
    What do you think some of those factors are?"
  138. Nesynchronizované
    "Well, I believe that those lie deep in the individual's nature,
  139. Nesynchronizované
    and my own views are that it's a very deep, personal psychological problem
  140. Nesynchronizované
    that there are many factors in the early childhood
  141. Nesynchronizované
    which affect a person.
  142. Nesynchronizované
    And the basic thing that I am aware of,
  143. Nesynchronizované
    is that all human beings have both maleness and femaleness in them.
  144. Nesynchronizované
    Now in America,
  145. Nesynchronizované
    where is the only place I know,
  146. Nesynchronizované
    we have too much the attitude that a person is either male or female.
  147. Nesynchronizované
    And as I find it,
  148. Nesynchronizované
    all the people I work with are mixed!
  149. Nesynchronizované
    Male and female.
  150. Nesynchronizované
    And when there are certain experiences in early childhood,
  151. Nesynchronizované
    it tends to throw a person more toward the male side
  152. Nesynchronizované
    or more toward the female side.
  153. Nesynchronizované
    And subsequent patterns develop from that."
  154. Nesynchronizované
    "Well certainly Dr. Freud and William James
  155. Nesynchronizované
    would go along with you on that.
  156. Nesynchronizované
    Freud, I think, said that all men are basically bisexual.
  157. Nesynchronizované
    And, William James even said that most men are potential homosexuals."
  158. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes, well the Freudian position, as I understand it, as a late person,
  159. Nesynchronizované
    is that there are a series of sexual attitudes towards life,
  160. Nesynchronizované
    which every individual goes through in some form or another:
  161. Nesynchronizované
    the self-love, the homosexual, and the heterosexual.
  162. Nesynchronizované
    And you can correct me Dr. Baker, if I'm wrong...
  163. Nesynchronizované
    the Freudian position was
  164. Nesynchronizované
    that the individual that remains within the homosexual bracket,
  165. Nesynchronizované
    has failed to take another step forward
  166. Nesynchronizované
    in what would be considered a sort of "normal growth"
  167. Nesynchronizované
    in their relationship with life.
  168. Nesynchronizované
    That is as I understand it...the Freudian position.
  169. Nesynchronizované
    Mr. Coal, you seem to have something to say."
  170. Nesynchronizované
    "Well I was going to add that
  171. Nesynchronizované
    I think that this whole business of homosexualism
  172. Nesynchronizované
    is just one of the things that exists in nature.
  173. Nesynchronizované
    It always has been with us, as far as we know,
  174. Nesynchronizované
    and it always will be, as far as we expect.
  175. Nesynchronizované
    It seems that no laws or no attitudes of any culture that we've looked into in the past,
  176. Nesynchronizované
    have ever been able to stamp it out, or even essentially curb it.
  177. Nesynchronizované
    The laws, and the enforcement of laws against homosexuality
  178. Nesynchronizované
    merely cases it out of sight.
  179. Nesynchronizované
    Of course, we also believe along here
  180. Nesynchronizované
    that the sexuality of all people, is something that should be a private matter,
  181. Nesynchronizované
    and not, of course, a public thing."
  182. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes, I appreciate that as a viewpoint,
  183. Nesynchronizované
    but I don't think that the fact that a thing has always existed
  184. Nesynchronizované
    obviates the fact that, in this particular instance,
  185. Nesynchronizované
    it does create vital problems for the individuals involved.
  186. Nesynchronizované
    And also because of centuries of discussion, and of hostilities, and so on,
  187. Nesynchronizované
    it also creates a problem for the society.
  188. Nesynchronizované
    So that I think today, what we are trying to establish
  189. Nesynchronizované
    is what that problem is, and how it can be most constructively handled
  190. Nesynchronizované
    from every standpoint.
  191. Nesynchronizované
    You mentioned Ms. Gailey,
  192. Nesynchronizované
    that you had become a member of the society because your son was a member.
  193. Nesynchronizované
    Perhaps you could tell us something about the problem regarding
  194. Nesynchronizované
    this manifestation of expression, from the standpoint of a parent."
  195. Nesynchronizované
    "I think my first reaction would be a universal one.
  196. Nesynchronizované
    It was shock.
  197. Nesynchronizované
    Here was ostracism facing me.
  198. Nesynchronizované
    Ostracism for me and for my son.
  199. Nesynchronizované
    And it was shock.
  200. Nesynchronizované
    Well, basically I loved my son.
  201. Nesynchronizované
    I wasn't about to put him out of the family circle
  202. Nesynchronizované
    just because he happened to have a different sexual attitude.
  203. Nesynchronizované
    So, I decided I wouldn't try to understand it.
  204. Nesynchronizované
    And you know, in fear,
  205. Nesynchronizované
    a big part of fear is the unknown.
  206. Nesynchronizované
    As soon as you start to understand, some of the fear leaves.
  207. Nesynchronizované
    Isn't that so, Dr. Baker?"
  208. Nesynchronizované
    "Oh I so appreciate what you said."
  209. Nesynchronizované
    "And the problem is a very challenging one.
  210. Nesynchronizované
    The more I got into it, the more I studied, the more I read,
  211. Nesynchronizované
    incidentally there is much literature on the Layman level
  212. Nesynchronizované
    for anyone to read, if they will, and if they are interested.
  213. Nesynchronizované
    Much of it.
  214. Nesynchronizované
    Many people are frightened because they think they have to go to the medical journals
  215. Nesynchronizované
    which they won't understand.
  216. Nesynchronizované
    But there is very much on the Layman level that they can read to understand.
  217. Nesynchronizované
    And, as far as I'm concerned,
  218. Nesynchronizované
    it is just a matter of understanding and accepting."
  219. Nesynchronizované
    "And what did your understanding come to?
  220. Nesynchronizované
    I think that would be an interesting point,
  221. Nesynchronizované
    that you discovered that you didn't really have a feeling of shock and hostility any longer?
  222. Nesynchronizované
    Or simply because it was something that you loved another human being
  223. Nesynchronizované
    that you were willing to accept?"
  224. Nesynchronizované
    "Very much. That's just about it."
  225. Nesynchronizované
    "I would like to throw in right here
  226. Nesynchronizované
    this idea that the problem of homosexuality,
  227. Nesynchronizované
    or the existence of homosexual people,
  228. Nesynchronizované
    is very often much closer to all of us than most of us realize.
  229. Nesynchronizované
    The person on the job next to you,
  230. Nesynchronizované
    or the neighbor in the apartment, or in the house next door,
  231. Nesynchronizované
    may, very often be homosexual,
  232. Nesynchronizované
    because as far as we have been able to learn from the statistics the experts have handed out,
  233. Nesynchronizované
    approximately every tenth adult in our culture today
  234. Nesynchronizované
    may be predominantly homosexual.
  235. Nesynchronizované
    So, it isn't one of those scourges that has just visited on someone here and there,
  236. Nesynchronizované
    it is quite general in our culture,
  237. Nesynchronizované
    and it spreads throughout our entire population
  238. Nesynchronizované
    with no respect to economic or intellectual standing.
  239. Nesynchronizované
    It covers the entire strata of our society."
  240. Nesynchronizované
    "Hall, don't you think that the claims that are made,
  241. Nesynchronizované
    that homosexuality is on the increase,
  242. Nesynchronizované
    is more or less an optical illusion?"
  243. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes, it actually is this.
  244. Nesynchronizované
    We've brought about a greater awareness of the existence of homosexuality
  245. Nesynchronizované
    in this country and in the world,
  246. Nesynchronizované
    but particularly in the United States since the end of World War II.
  247. Nesynchronizované
    The pressures of the wartime period
  248. Nesynchronizované
    plus the movements of large groups of population,
  249. Nesynchronizované
    and plus possibly throwing many family relationships out of a so-called "ordinary balance,"
  250. Nesynchronizované
    and putting great groups of men together here and there
  251. Nesynchronizované
    created an awareness or increased the discovery
  252. Nesynchronizované
    of the existence of homosexuality in probably a good many people,
  253. Nesynchronizované
    who probably would have never otherwise discovered it."
  254. Nesynchronizované
    "There is one thing that I'd like to put on the table for discussion:
  255. Nesynchronizované
    do you feel that the attitude of the person involved
  256. Nesynchronizované
    is conditioned by society's pressure,
  257. Nesynchronizované
    or is it intrinsic to his own situation?
  258. Nesynchronizované
    I mean, does he find himself, or does she find herself,
  259. Nesynchronizované
    in a situation where they themselves have a certain amount of hostility and resentment and fear
  260. Nesynchronizované
    regarding their own attitudes.
  261. Nesynchronizované
    Is that purely produced, do you think,
  262. Nesynchronizované
    by the society, or is there a real problem involved for the individual
  263. Nesynchronizované
    in facing their own inclinations?"
  264. Nesynchronizované
    "I think the individual, the homosexual individual,
  265. Nesynchronizované
    adopts a lot of his attitudes and his own hostilities
  266. Nesynchronizované
    as a result of the mores or the attitudes of the society in which he lives.
  267. Nesynchronizované
    And, maybe he even adopts certain mannerisms as a result,
  268. Nesynchronizované
    or which reflect this hostility
  269. Nesynchronizované
    and this lack of self-acceptance.
  270. Nesynchronizované
    Because he feels that no one else accepts him,
  271. Nesynchronizované
    he is reluctant perhaps to understand and accept his own and true nature.
  272. Nesynchronizované
    And it's certainly, if it's a homosexual orientation,
  273. Nesynchronizované
    it's something that he cannot advertise.
  274. Nesynchronizované
    If anything, he has to live a double life and hide it.
  275. Nesynchronizované
    That is, he has to be homosexual, privately if at all,
  276. Nesynchronizované
    and otherwise appear like a "normal" or "average" person
  277. Nesynchronizované
    in all of his other contacts."
  278. Nesynchronizované
    "Wouldn't you say that there was some of both,
  279. Nesynchronizované
    in that both the individual and the result of society...
  280. Nesynchronizované
    certainly there is a great fear.
  281. Nesynchronizované
    That is the most widespread reaction of homosexuals...is fear from society.
  282. Nesynchronizované
    But, I think there is also guilt and shame within himself.
  283. Nesynchronizované
    He has both to face.
  284. Nesynchronizované
    Would you say that was true Dr. Baker?"
  285. Nesynchronizované
    "Well I certainly agree with you Layla.
  286. Nesynchronizované
    The major factor is this fear of the unknown that you have mentioned,
  287. Nesynchronizované
    and people have such concepts of homosexuality
  288. Nesynchronizované
    that make them have all kinds of grizzly fear.
  289. Nesynchronizované
    And I would like to say also
  290. Nesynchronizované
    that one of the factors that I think is so important to realize,
  291. Nesynchronizované
    is the fear that it may be in us.
  292. Nesynchronizované
    We have little indications,
  293. Nesynchronizované
    maybe we've been a little too exuberant in expressions that we were surprised at.
  294. Nesynchronizované
    And so, we will often persecute a person
  295. Nesynchronizované
    because we don't want to face the truth in ourselves."
  296. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes, but that's an attitude on the part of the person on the outside.
  297. Nesynchronizované
    What I was trying to have some more light on, was this:
  298. Nesynchronizované
    a child grows up in an environment where, insofar as his knowledge goes, largely,
  299. Nesynchronizované
    he's in a heterosexual society
  300. Nesynchronizované
    and if he suddenly begins to discover in himself
  301. Nesynchronizované
    a tendency which doesn't coincide with the family life
  302. Nesynchronizované
    and what he knows of the social life around him,
  303. Nesynchronizované
    isn't that in itself an opening wedge of fear and confusion?
  304. Nesynchronizované
    Particularly when he may be afraid to turn to anyone else."
  305. Nesynchronizované
    "Well yes, he feels that he is "different.""
  306. Nesynchronizované
    "Yes, and people feel a sense of terror almost
  307. Nesynchronizované
    at the discovery of any major difference in their attitudes
  308. Nesynchronizované
    from that of the society surrounding them.
  309. Nesynchronizované
    I think that any human being has had that experience
  310. Nesynchronizované
    if they have gone off on their own in any direction:
  311. Nesynchronizované
    religiously, philosophically, politically, in any way you like...
  312. Nesynchronizované
    so that perhaps that is one of the factors that sets up the original difficulty for the individual."
  313. Nesynchronizované
    "That is very evident when you work with these individuals
  314. Nesynchronizované
    that they have been hurt so early in life by this persecutory attitude.
  315. Nesynchronizované
    They pick it up very quickly and they are very much afraid
  316. Nesynchronizované
    to share their outlook.
  317. Nesynchronizované
    They are even afraid that if they approach another potentially homesexual person,
  318. Nesynchronizované
    they may be making a mistake.
  319. Nesynchronizované
    So, one of the first things that I do in working with a person that has homosexual tendencies,
  320. Nesynchronizované
    is to begin the process of self-acceptance in him.
  321. Nesynchronizované
    And as he accepts himself,
  322. Nesynchronizované
    he becomes more relaxed and more comfortable,
  323. Nesynchronizované
    and then he can meet people on a more peaceful basis
  324. Nesynchronizované
    and doesn't have to put on a lot of these mannerisms
  325. Nesynchronizované
    which are quite often the hostility showing...
  326. Nesynchronizované
    his own reaction to this hostility from other people that I've spoken of."
  327. Nesynchronizované