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← Getting (more) Debian into our civil infrastructure

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Ukazujem Revíziu 10 vytvorenú 07/10/2018 od tvincent.

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    Welcome back, the next talk will be
    Jan Kiszka
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    on Getting more Debian into our
    civil infrastructure.
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    Thank you Michael.
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    So my name is Jan Kiszka,
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    you may not know me, I'm not a Debian
    Developer, not a Debian Maintainer.
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    I'm just an upstream hacker.
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    I'm working for Siemens
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    and part of the Linux team there
    for now 10 years actually,
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    more than 10 years.
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    We are supporting our business units
    in getting Linux into the products successfully
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    for that long time, even longer actually.
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    Today, I'm representing a collaborative
    project that has some relationship
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    with Debian, and more soon.
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    First of all, maybe a surprise to some
    of you,
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    our civilization is heavily running on Linux
    and you may now think about
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    this kind of devices where some kind of
    Linux inside,
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    or you may think of the cloud servers
    running Linux inside.
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    But actually, this is about devices closer
    to us.
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    In all our infrastructure,
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    there are control systems, there are
    management systems included
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    and many many of them run Linux inside.
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    Maybe if you are traveling with Deutsche
    Bahn to this event these days,
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    there was some Linux system on the train
    as well,
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    as they were on the ???,
    so on the control side.
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    Energy generation.
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    Power plants, they are also run with Linux
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    in very interesting ways, in positive ways
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    Industry automation, the factories, they
    have control systems inside
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    and quite a few are running Linux inside.
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    And also other systems like health care,
    diagnostic systems.
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    These big balls up there, they're magnetic
    resonance imaging systems,
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    they're running on Linux for over
    a decade now.
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    Building automation, not at home but in
    the professional building area.
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    Actually, as I said, the train systems are
    going to be more on Debian soon.
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    We have Debian for quite a while in
    power generation.
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    "We", in this case, Siemens.
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    We have the box underneath,
    on the third row,
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    the industrial switch there is running
    Debian.
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    And the health care device is still
    on Ubuntu, but soon will be Debian as well.
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    Just to give some examples.
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    These are the areas where we, as a group,
    and we, as Siemens, are active.
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    But there are some problems with this.
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    Just take an example from a railway
    system.
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    Usually, this kind of devices installation,
    they have a lifetime
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    of 25, 30 years.
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    It used to be quite simple with these
    old devices,
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    simple in the sense that it was mechanic,
    it was pretty robust
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    I was once told that one of these locking
    systems,
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    they were basically left in a box out there
    for 50 years and no one entered the ???
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    No one touched the whole thing for 50 years
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    These times are a little bit over.
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    Nowadays, we have more electronic systems
    in these systems
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    and they contain of course software.
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    What does it mean?
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    Just to give you an idea, how this kind
    of development looks like in this domain.
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    So ???
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    development takes quite a long time
    until the product is ready,
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    3 to 5 years.
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    Then, in the railway domain, it's mostly
    about customizing the systems
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    for specific installations of the railway
    systems,
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    not only in Europe, they are kind of messy
    regarding the differences.
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    So you have specific requirements of the
    customer, the railway operators
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    to adjust these systems for their needs.
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    And you see by then,
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    after 5 years already, a Debian version
    would be out of maintenance and
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    if you add an other year, you can start
    over again.
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    So, in the development time, you may
    change still the system
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    but later on, it's getting hard to change
    the system ???
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    because then the interesting parts start
    in this domain, not only in this domain,
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    that's safety and security assessment and
    approval for these systems.
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    And that also takes time.
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    For example, in Germany, you go for the
    Eisenbahn ???
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    and you ask to get a permission to run
    that train on the track
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    and if they say "Mmh, not happy with it",
    you do it over again
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    and it takes time
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    and if you change something in the
    system, it becomes interesting
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    because some of these certification
    aspects become invalid,
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    you have to redo it.
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    And then of course, these trains on
    the installation,
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    the have a long life as I mentioned
    before.
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    So how do you deal with this in
    an electronic device and
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    in software-driven devices over
    this long phase?
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    That's our challenge
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    and just one example and there are
    more in this area.
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    At the same time, what we see now is
    these fancy buzzwords
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    from cloud business entering
    our conservative, slowly moving domain.
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    We talk about IoT, industrial IoT, so
    connected devices.
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    We talk about edge computing, it means
    getting the power of the cloud
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    to the device in the field, closer to
    where the real things happen.
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    So, networking becomes a topic.
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    In the past, you basically built a system,
    you locked it up physically
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    you never touched it again, except
    the customer complains that
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    there were some bug inside.
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    These days, the customer asks us to
    do a frequent update.
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    And actually the customers ???
    ask for this.
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    So you have to have some security
    maintenance concept in this
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    which means regular updates, regular fixes
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    and that is of course ???
    for this kind of doing the way you have
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    slow running and long running
    support cycles.
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    To summarize, there's a very long time
    we have to maintain our devices in the field
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    and so far, this was mostly done
    individually.
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    So each company, and sometimes quite
    frequently also inside the company,
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    each product group, development ???
    did it individually.
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    So everyone was having their own kernel,
    everyone was having their own base system,
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    it was easy to build up so it should be
    easy to maintain.
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    Of course it's not.
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    This was one thing, one important thing.
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    And then, of course, we not always are
    completely happy
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    with what the free software gives us.
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    There are some needs to make things
    more robust,
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    to make things more secure, reliable.
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    So we have to work with these components
    and improve them, mostly upstream,
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    and that, of course, is not a challenge
    we have to address in this area.
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    And catch up with a trend coming in from
    the service space on the cloud space.
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    So with this challenge…
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    it was the point where we, in this case,
    a number of big users of
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    industrial open source systems,
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    came together and created a new
    collaborative project.
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    That's what you do in the open source
    area.
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    This project is called Civil Infrastructure
    Platform.
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    It's under the umbrella of the Linux
    Foundation,
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    there are many projects of the Linux
    Foundation you may have seen,
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    but most of them are more in the area
    of cloud computing
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    or in the area of media.
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    Automotive computing, this one is actually
    even more conservative than the other ones
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    and it's also comparably small.
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    Our goal is to build this open source
    base layer for these application scenarios
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    based on free software, based on Linux.
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    We started two years ago.
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    That's basically our structure, to give
    you an idea.
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    Member companies, the 3 on the top are
    founding platinum companies,
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    Hitachi, Toshiba and Siemens.
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    We have Codethink and Plat'Home
    on board,
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    we had them on board for the first time
    as well.
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    Renesas joined us and just recently also
    Moxa.
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    So if you compare this with other
    collaborative projects,
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    it's a pretty small one, comparatively
    small one,
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    so our budget is also limited.
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    It's still decent enough, but, well,
    we are growing.
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    And based on this budget, we have
    some developers being paid,
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    Ben is paid this way, you will see
    later on why.
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    And we have people working from
    the companies in the communities
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    and we are ramping up on working with
    communities
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    to improve the base layers for our needs.
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    Everything is open source, we have
    a GitLab repo as well and
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    you can look up there what's going on there.
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    So, the main areas of activities where
    we are working on right now.
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    4 areas.
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    Kernel maintenance,
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    we started with declaring one kernel as
    the CIP kernel to have
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    an extended support phase for this kernel
    of 10 years.
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    This is what we're aiming for, which is
    feasible already
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    for some enterprise distros
    in a specific area
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    but here we are talking about an industrial
    area, an embedded area
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    so there is some challenge.
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    I'm saying 10 years, there's sometimes
    written 15 years,
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    we will see after 10 years if we follow
    on to this.
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    Along with this, of course, comes the need
    for real time support.
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    Currently, it's a separated branch, but
    it's going to be integrated eventually
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    to have the PREEMPT_RT branch
    ??? doing this.
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    As I mentioned before, Ben is currently
    our 4.4 CIP kernel maintainer.
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    This is the core, basically where we
    started activities.
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    We continued in extending this on
    test infrastructure,
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    so we invested a bit in improving on
    ??? infrastructure,
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    we are now ramping up an internal
    ??? just to enable
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    the kernel testing of course.
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    And then, that's actually what I'd like
    to talk about today a bit more,
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    there's a CIP core.
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    The kernel alone doesn't make a system,
    you need a user space,
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    you need a user land and that's basically
    where we are now focusing on,
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    ramping up.
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    Our activity is to define this CIP core,
    means a base system,
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    user space base system which you want
    to maintain as long as the kernel,
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    so an other 10 years thing.
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    Our group had a couple of members which
    were already familiar with Debian before.
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    So it was pretty easy for that group
    to decide on
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    choosing Debian as the base source
    for our core, CIP core package.
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    So, why was Debian chosen?
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    Well, it has an outstanding maturity and
    a focus on stability,
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    so we are pretty much aligned regarding
    how conservative we see certain things
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    which is a positive thing for us.
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    It has very professional security properties
    but we also rely on heavily.
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    And also another interesting aspect for us
    is the license hygiene that you are after
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    to ensure that there is only free software
    in these packages
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    and that is properly documented.
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    We, when we are using and redistributing
    software,
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    in contrast to, for example, the service space
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    when you don't usually redistribute things,
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    we are redistributing devices, so we are
    redistributing software,
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    we have to take care of the licenses
    that we are redistributing
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    and that we are compliant with all these
    licenses included.
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    So it's very important for us that this is
    a consistent picture we get from the package.
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    Someone looked at this already, we are still
    looking ourselves on this
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    but that's a very important thing.
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    With these characters, we chose Debian
    as the base system.
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    So, what does it mean right now?
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    We are currently in the process to select
    the core packages from the Debian packages
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    There is still a little bit of ???
    obviously.
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    So we are already working with Debian on
    certain long term support aspects
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    Just to mention 2 activities,
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    we were sponsoring already the staging
    repo for security master.
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    Actually I'm ??? aware of the current
    state of the project
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    but we got the feedback that it's
    apparently a valuable thing for LTS activity
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    We just joined LTS platinum sponsoring
    and we are now involved in discussion
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    for this extended LTS activity,
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    so anything beyond 5 years
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    and in the end, that's what we committed
    to our users.
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    We want to ensure that for the base system
    the 10 years is reached.
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    Of course, ideally, in the community,
    not only based on our personal activities
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    but in the end, we have to fill the gap
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    and that's basically our commitment
    on this.
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    Don't take literally what is written here.
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    This is basically to reflect the package set
    we are discussing
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    and there are some 30 to 300 packages
    on the discussion, so to say right now
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    We're condensing basically all the input
    from our users, from our members,
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    what they are using already
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    and there is a difference we will later
    on where this comes from
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    in the amount of packages, if the way
    they're using.
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    So, the kernel currently is not part of
    the Debian thing we import,
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    although some of our users would directly
    use a Debian kernel
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    but as I said, when there's a need for
    additional activities and
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    that's why CIP Core comes in
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    but then we have a set of base packages
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    and then of course, we also have to have
    a certain set of packages that we need to keep
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    in a usable way to ensure reproducibility
    of this base set.
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    Because if we want to fix something
    after 9 years in the field
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    on a base system produced in the past,
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    we have to ensure if we can come up
    with the same result
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    plus the delta.
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    So there are different ways how to build
    a system
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    and compared to the classic installation
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    you may know from a desktop or a server
    you're not installing,
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    we are prebuilding images and then deploy
    these images on the devices
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    either in the factory or out there
    in the field.
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    So the challenge for us is, if we have
    this package list,
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    how to get to the device image.
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    So just to give you a brief idea, of course
    there is some input
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    from the CIP kernel in source form
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    then we are using ???
    prebuilt binary packages from Debian
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    and/or source package, the source feed
    from Debian,
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    the upstream source but the Debian patches
    as input feeds
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    and that comes bound to a minimum
    base system to be generated
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    and we are currently working on this.
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    There is no defined way of producing
    this image within CIP at this point,
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    we are basically following two paths.
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    One of them is the path which is dominated
    by the idea
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    "Ok, we have to ensure we, in this case
    the ??? environments
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    have to ensure to reproduce the image
    ourself, the binaries ourself"
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    so we take the maintain sources from
    the Debian community
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    but we rebuilt and then generate a new
    binary ??? out of this.
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    That's one way and that's an activity
    which you have heard about,
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    meta-debian project prominently driven
    by Toshiba,
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    which uses the ???
    way of producing a base system
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    but out of Debian sources so that you have
    a maintained source input feed
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    for this production.
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    That's one path.
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    The other path is using predominantly
    binary packages
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    and personally and specific also at Siemens
    we are more following this path here.
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    So there is for example the ISAR project,
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    ??? is one of their developers here
    as well
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    We are working on this path, it means that
    95 or 99% of your image consists originally
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    of binaries, Debian binaries as they are
    shipped, as they are released
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    and then there is often the need to modify
    a little bit,
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    it might be the kernel, it might be
    the bootloader,
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    it might be a special patched package
    for whatever reason,
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    hopefully good ones.
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    You have an infrastructure to assemble
    the binary images and
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    to produce the source packages
    on demand
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    and install that into an image that you
    then can flash on the device.
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    That's the second path we are following,
    as I said,
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    that's just to describe the workflows,
    the technology behind it is
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    not yet standardized in the CIP.
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    For us at Siemens, currently,
    ???
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    it's also ??? based
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    yocto-like production,
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    but based on the Debian binaries
    producing a ready-to-install device image.
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    We look at the situation.
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    So what is Debian providing?
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    Well, a large set of packages, a nice
    level of support, 3 + 2 years LTS mostly.
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    That's already great, I mean there's
    everything available,
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    almost everything in the world of
    Free Software, we can get via Debian.
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    The build, it supports native build.
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    That's also an advantage, because finding
    after 10 years, 15 years with cross build…
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    There's always a problem with
    cross building, even a little bit.
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    So this is a good strategy to go, although
    you're also working on cross build
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    that may be interesting for certain
    scenarios as well for us
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    and we're all discussing this these days,
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    reproducible builds is also very important
    for us
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    because we also have to prove that
    the delta is really only on the delta
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    that has to be changed and not anything
    else and
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    we have to rebuild something for
    whatever reason,
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    we don't want to produce a completely
    different image in the end.
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    So it's a very important topic.
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    I mentioned already before the license
    compliance topics.
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    I'm not really deep expert on all the
    licensing thing,
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    except when I have to be because some
    customer asks us internally
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    how to be compliant and how to solve
    certain compliance findings.
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    A colleague of mine, ??? example
    who's maintaining the fossology project
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    is way more in this because we have also
    our infrastructure
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    to ensure license compliance and identify
    packages, ???
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    and the idea, as far as I heard, is to
    combine these kinds of activity
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    so that Debian can also use the information
    that this kind of scanners produce
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    like spdx formats and build it into
    the Debian 5 next generations.
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    In turn, we can extract this information
    and ensure that they are still valid
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    when we take a package.
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    So there's a lot of activity already
    in this area
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    and of course testing, not to mention.
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    So, what we need to require here,
    as I said.
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    One thing is we will need a longer support
    phase.
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    The number of packages fortunately is
    much lower.
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    As I said, something like 200 at most is
    what we're currently heading for
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    for most of our devices.
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    We have the need to both build natively and
    cross build predominantly
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    in the development phase,
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    but there might also cases where it might
    be useful for a product image
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    but predominantly it's for development
    phase, you want to
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    ??? when you are building on on x64 ARM
    for example.
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    The binary source packages should be
    managed and reproducible.
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    The license compliance already
    mentioned.
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    And the testing activity is also something
    that we want to improve on further.
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    So, where we see the collaboration.
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    Already mentioned long term maintenance
    for packages,
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    that's definitely an area where we are
    reaching out and we are in discussion.
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    Contributing to Debian cross, there's
    activities going on this area.
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    Reproducible builds, we had some
    discussion, Holger and Chris, these days
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    where we could possibly support you
    on this.
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    It's not our topmost priority at
    this point but it's obvious that
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    it will become in the future.
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    Also, a way possibly interesting for you,
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    I think there is a good chance that
    these activities also open up
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    more adoption in the ???
    of Debian.
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    Because we are also discussing this kind
    of things with our suppliers,
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    means the silicon vendors, pushing them
    to be more upstream
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    in order to have it easier for us to
    integrate their work in our systems
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    and eventually, also enabling them to
    use the same mechanism that we are using
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    for building our images to build there
    our customer SDKs
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    or however they call them
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    and that can create a large ecosystem.
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    We have been discussing already with
    some of these vendors
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    and some are actually interested
    in Debian as well as a default image
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    to replace those not so successful
    source build approaches
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    that are out there in the field
    eventually with something more easy to use
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    An other area I really like to see that
    we have collaboration on
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    is regarding the license result.
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    We, at Siemens, currently are running
    through with this subset package
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    that fossology run
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    and I would like to see the result of
    this run, comparing it to what
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    Debian is currently reporting in the
    metadata
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    if there are any gaps, anything that our
    experts say
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    "Ok, you should document it more that way"
    or "There is something missing"
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    and of course report these issues upstream
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    because eventually, I don't want to rescan
    every single security update package
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    internally again if you did already.
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    That should just run through and
    we should have the trust that
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    this information is accurate and we can
    rely on that.
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    That's the vision behind it.
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    Test cases would be also an area where
    we see a chance to contribute something.
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    Further things we are discussing might be
    not that interesting for Debian,
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    but it's interesting in general.
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    Functional safety activities, you'd be
    surprised how many people are asking for
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    functional safe Linux these days,
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    may it be for automotive, but also for
    industrial purposes.
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    Worth mentioning, actually, is the
    security standard this way.
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    So even if you're not involved in all
    this IEC whatever stuff,
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    it's interesting because this is pushing
    us, in industry,
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    to do things like update strategies
    even more consistently
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    and ensure that the image that we ship
    is integer,
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    so that it's really the original image.
  369. Nesynchronizované
    Up to the questions of how to secure
    the boot
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    and how to secure the system is running.
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    That helps us to argue internally and
    externally for consolidation
  372. Nesynchronizované
    and that helps us currently to push
    a lot of these users
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    towards Debian solutions.
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    One of our units did once a survey,
    recently actually,
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    about how many Linux systems they have
    there, and they counted 99 balloons
  376. Nesynchronizované
    erm, Linux systems, actually
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    and of course you can imagine
    it's pretty hard to maintain 99 variants
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    in the field out there.
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    So they are one of the most prominent
    drivers inside our company
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    to consolidate the systems and we are
    currently consolidating over Debian.
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    Not everything, but most of it.
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    And then there is this doomsday date
    as well,
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    which is an increasing concern because
    you can imagine that
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    if you are building a device today, maybe
    it's out of business in 10 years,
  385. Nesynchronizované
    Ok you're lucky, maybe it's still running
    in 20 years and it's not yet ready for 2038
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    and then we have a problem.
  387. Nesynchronizované
    That's things ??? going on currently
    already,
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    so one ??? for example is sponsoring
    activities in glibc to prove the topic
  389. Nesynchronizované
    and as a consortium, the CIP group be also
    looking into this,
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    we would not jump in on things but
    which have already been happening
  391. Nesynchronizované
    but if there are gaps up there, then we will
    possibly jump in here as well.
  392. Nesynchronizované
    So, to summarize.
  393. Nesynchronizované
    We believe, I personally as well,
    very strongly
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    that our infrastructure is
    way too critical
  395. Nesynchronizované
    to run ???
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    which is happening, not everywhere,
    fortunately
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    and we can improve on this, together
  398. Nesynchronizované
    because there is a strong interest
    in our group
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    to enable and preserve an open source
    base layer for this environment.
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    We chose Debian as a solid foundation
    because we believe that
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    this is technically a good solution
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    and it's also a good solution because
    it's a community approach
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    that we are also following.
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    We see that we don't differentiate
    over this base layer,
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    we differentiate between our competitors
    on the higher functionality,
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    on the integration, but not what is
    in details running underneath.
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    This is a great great point to collaborate
    and to work together.
  408. Nesynchronizované
    CIP is really looking forward to ???
    support