"Mr. Coal I think we will begin with our first questions directed toward you.
You are, I believe, the editor of the Madachine Review
which is a publication put out by the Madachine Society
is that correct?
Could you tell us something about what the Madachine Society
is, what its general purposes are?"
"Yes
the Madachine Society is an incorporated
non-profit organization
that is engaged in
examining and doing something about the problems
that face the homosexual
in our country today."
"Is it confined to the San Francisco area
or is it a national publication,
and society?"
"Well it's a membership organization
that is actually spread very thinly now
from coast to coast
The magazine is national,
in fact it circulates also in eighteen foreign countries."
"And, approximately
how many members are there in the Madachine society?"
"Right now we have
about 117 members.
Probably by the end of the year, that will increase to 150.
The interest in our subject
is very great, but people are quite loathe to join.
All of the members are over 21 years of age."
"But the magazine itself would have a wider coverage than that,
I presume."
"Yes indeed,
it circulates at about 2,500 copies each monthly issue."
"I see...
and the purposes are,
as you state them,
to bring about a better understanding of the problem
of the person who is classified by our society
as a homosexual."
"Yes, that is the primary purpose,
actually this interest in this field that the Medachine has
extends to inclued
other forms of sex variation
particularly those forms of
varied sex behavior that we believe
do not constitute any real harm to our social order."
"I see...
well there are many ways that this subject could be discussed.
One I would say, broadly speaking, is the problem of the individual
who falls into this category,
and the other one would be
the problem of what society's attitude toward that individual
should ideally be.
Would the members of the panel agree with that?"
"Yes I think they would."
"Well, supposing we start out with our doctor
and perhaps she could tell us what the state of knowledge is,
scientifically speaking.
Is the homosexual classified as a medical case,
as a psychological case?
Let's have some general statement of what your interpretation would be
of what produces
that particular type of approach to life."
"Well this is a quite controversial subject
even in the medical profession.
There are many, many outstanding theories
and I think there are many individual variations
in the interpretation of those basic theories.
For instance, there are those positions who feel
that this is definitely a neurotic problem.
There are others who feel that it is a glandular problem.
Many feel it's hereditary,
others feel it may be caused by other factors.
Now, for myself I feel, from the many years of work and intense
specialization in understanding of homosexuals,
I feel that a homosexual is, first of all,
a human being.
Now that may seem to be a rather elementary statement,
but I very much believe in the individual adjustment problem
and I think that homosexuality many have many different kinds of causes,
and each individual case needs to be studied and interpreted in its own merits.
And I do not look upon homosexuality as a neurotic problem,
but more a basic personality pattern reaction.
Just as some people prefer blonds,
and others prefer brunettes,
I think the fact that a given person may prefer
a love of the same sex
is their personal business.
Now that doesn't mean that homosexuals may not become neurotic,
I believe that they often do because society is so hostile to them,
and their own families do not understand them,
so they are subject to a great many pressures,
and a great deal of unhappiness.
I know that other psychiatrists would not agree with me,
but this is my own personal interpretation."
"I see...
Would you say that the majority of people
in the medical profession, or in your own profession,
do disagree with you?
I mean would you say that your attitude,
in other words is a minority attitude where the medical profession is concerned?"
"I suspect that it's pretty much a minority,
I know several psychiatrists who have somewhat similar views,
but I couldn't speak for the group,
because psychiatrists are just about as individualistic as any group I know.
And, I do believe though, that the actual viewpoint
is pretty generally hostile,
in that the homosexual is looked upon
as a poor risk by psychiatrists,
and I know for a fact..."
"And about science, can one be hostile about science?
Is there any acceptable medical evidence in your view
for the fact that this is, partially, at least,
a physical predisposition,
rather than the psychological one?"
"Well there has been a great deal of work done on this,
but I don't believe that there has ever been any conclusive finding.
I know that the attempts that I have read
will describe all varieties,
and you wind up by just seeing different kinds of human beings.
That is, there will be some research which tends to show
that homosexuals are tall and skinny.
And other researches will show
that they are more short and fat with feminine curves.
And then there are others
that show them to be muscular..."
"Is this the glandular theory?"
"No, I don't know that this is glandular,
but you asked for a physical evaluation,
and there have been studies made.
For a long time, there has been research made on them.
And, as far as I can read,
they are dealing with just a broad cross-section of the population.
And I don't think they are actually measuring the factors
that do contribute to homosexuality."
"And I would like the rest of you to enter into this dicussion.
What do you think some of those factors are?"
"Well, I believe that those lie deep in the individual's nature,
and my own views are that it's a very deep, personal psychological problem
that there are many factors in the early childhood
which affect a person.
And the basic thing that I am aware of,
is that all human beings have both maleness and femaleness in them.
Now in America,
where is the only place I know,
we have too much the attitude that a person is either male or female.
And as I find it,
all the people I work with are mixed!
Male and female.
And when there are certain experiences in early childhood,
it tends to throw a person more toward the male side
or more toward the female side.
And subsequent patterns develop from that."
"Well certainly Dr. Freud and William James
would go along with you on that.
Freud, I think, said that all men are basically bisexual.
And, William James even said that most men are potential homosexuals."
"Yes, well the Freudian position, as I understand it, as a late person,
is that there are a series of sexual attitudes towards life,
which every individual goes through in some form or another:
the self-love, the homosexual, and the heterosexual.
And you can correct me Dr. Baker, if I'm wrong...
the Freudian position was
that the individual that remains within the homosexual bracket,
has failed to take another step forward
in what would be considered a sort of "normal growth"
in their relationship with life.
That is as I understand it...the Freudian position.
Mr. Coal, you seem to have something to say."
"Well I was going to add that
I think that this whole business of homosexualism
is just one of the things that exists in nature.
It always has been with us, as far as we know,
and it always will be, as far as we expect.
It seems that no laws or no attitudes of any culture that we've looked into in the past,
have ever been able to stamp it out, or even essentially curb it.
The laws, and the enforcement of laws against homosexuality
merely cases it out of sight.
Of course, we also believe along here
that the sexuality of all people, is something that should be a private matter,
and not, of course, a public thing."
"Yes, I appreciate that as a viewpoint,
but I don't think that the fact that a thing has always existed
obviates the fact that, in this particular instance,
it does create vital problems for the individuals involved.
And also because of centuries of discussion, and of hostilities, and so on,
it also creates a problem for the society.
So that I think today, what we are trying to establish
is what that problem is, and how it can be most constructively handled
from every standpoint.
You mentioned Ms. Gailey,
that you had become a member of the society because your son was a member.
Perhaps you could tell us something about the problem regarding
this manifestation of expression, from the standpoint of a parent."
"I think my first reaction would be a universal one.
It was shock.
Here was ostracism facing me.
Ostracism for me and for my son.
And it was shock.
Well, basically I loved my son.
I wasn't about to put him out of the family circle
just because he happened to have a different sexual attitude.
So, I decided I wouldn't try to understand it.
And you know, in fear,
a big part of fear is the unknown.
As soon as you start to understand, some of the fear leaves.
Isn't that so, Dr. Baker?"
"Oh I so appreciate what you said."
"And the problem is a very challenging one.
The more I got into it, the more I studied, the more I read,
incidentally there is much literature on the Layman level
for anyone to read, if they will, and if they are interested.
Much of it.
Many people are frightened because they think they have to go to the medical journals
which they won't understand.
But there is very much on the Layman level that they can read to understand.
And, as far as I'm concerned,
it is just a matter of understanding and accepting."
"And what did your understanding come to?
I think that would be an interesting point,
that you discovered that you didn't really have a feeling of shock and hostility any longer?
Or simply because it was something that you loved another human being
that you were willing to accept?"
"Very much. That's just about it."
"I would like to throw in right here
this idea that the problem of homosexuality,
or the existence of homosexual people,
is very often much closer to all of us than most of us realize.
The person on the job next to you,
or the neighbor in the apartment, or in the house next door,
may, very often be homosexual,
because as far as we have been able to learn from the statistics the experts have handed out,
approximately every tenth adult in our culture today
may be predominantly homosexual.
So, it isn't one of those scourges that has just visited on someone here and there,
it is quite general in our culture,
and it spreads throughout our entire population
with no respect to economic or intellectual standing.
It covers the entire strata of our society."
"Hall, don't you think that the claims that are made,
that homosexuality is on the increase,
is more or less an optical illusion?"
"Yes, it actually is this.
We've brought about a greater awareness of the existence of homosexuality
in this country and in the world,
but particularly in the United States since the end of World War II.
The pressures of the wartime period
plus the movements of large groups of population,
and plus possibly throwing many family relationships out of a so-called "ordinary balance,"
and putting great groups of men together here and there
created an awareness or increased the discovery
of the existence of homosexuality in probably a good many people,
who probably would have never otherwise discovered it."
"There is one thing that I'd like to put on the table for discussion:
do you feel that the attitude of the person involved
is conditioned by society's pressure,
or is it intrinsic to his own situation?
I mean, does he find himself, or does she find herself,
in a situation where they themselves have a certain amount of hostility and resentment and fear
regarding their own attitudes.
Is that purely produced, do you think,
by the society, or is there a real problem involved for the individual
in facing their own inclinations?"
"I think the individual, the homosexual individual,
adopts a lot of his attitudes and his own hostilities
as a result of the mores or the attitudes of the society in which he lives.
And, maybe he even adopts certain mannerisms as a result,
or which reflect this hostility
and this lack of self-acceptance.
Because he feels that no one else accepts him,
he is reluctant perhaps to understand and accept his own and true nature.
And it's certainly, if it's a homosexual orientation,
it's something that he cannot advertise.
If anything, he has to live a double life and hide it.
That is, he has to be homosexual, privately if at all,
and otherwise appear like a "normal" or "average" person
in all of his other contacts."
"Wouldn't you say that there was some of both,
in that both the individual and the result of society...
certainly there is a great fear.
That is the most widespread reaction of homosexuals...is fear from society.
But, I think there is also guilt and shame within himself.
He has both to face.
Would you say that was true Dr. Baker?"
"Well I certainly agree with you Layla.
The major factor is this fear of the unknown that you have mentioned,
and people have such concepts of homosexuality
that make them have all kinds of grizzly fear.
And I would like to say also
that one of the factors that I think is so important to realize,
is the fear that it may be in us.
We have little indications,
maybe we've been a little too exuberant in expressions that we were surprised at.
And so, we will often persecute a person
because we don't want to face the truth in ourselves."
"Yes, but that's an attitude on the part of the person on the outside.
What I was trying to have some more light on, was this:
a child grows up in an environment where, insofar as his knowledge goes, largely,
he's in a heterosexual society
and if he suddenly begins to discover in himself
a tendency which doesn't coincide with the family life
and what he knows of the social life around him,
isn't that in itself an opening wedge of fear and confusion?
Particularly when he may be afraid to turn to anyone else."
"Well yes, he feels that he is "different.""
"Yes, and people feel a sense of terror almost
at the discovery of any major difference in their attitudes
from that of the society surrounding them.
I think that any human being has had that experience
if they have gone off on their own in any direction:
religiously, philosophically, politically, in any way you like...
so that perhaps that is one of the factors that sets up the original difficulty for the individual."
"That is very evident when you work with these individuals
that they have been hurt so early in life by this persecutory attitude.
They pick it up very quickly and they are very much afraid
to share their outlook.
They are even afraid that if they approach another potentially homesexual person,
they may be making a mistake.
So, one of the first things that I do in working with a person that has homosexual tendencies,
is to begin the process of self-acceptance in him.
And as he accepts himself,
he becomes more relaxed and more comfortable,
and then he can meet people on a more peaceful basis
and doesn't have to put on a lot of these mannerisms
which are quite often the hostility showing...
his own reaction to this hostility from other people that I've spoken of."
"Sig. Coal, iniziamo rivolgendole delle domande su di lei.
Credo di aver capito che lei sia il direttore della rivista Mattachine Review
pubblicata dalla Mattachine Society
giusto?
Potrebbe dirci qualcosa sulla Mattachine Society
e su quali siano gli obiettivi che vuole raggiungere?"
Sì,
la Mattachine Society è un'organizzazione
no-profit
che si impegna
nell'esaminare e fare qualcosa in merito ai problemi
che gli omosessuali devono affrontare
tutt'oggi nel nostro Paese".
È attiva solo su San Francisco
o si tratta di una pubblicazione o
una società nazionale?
Beh, si tratta di un'organizzazione
che a poco a poco si è diffusa
da una costa all'altra
La rivista è nazionale
e circola in 18 Paesi stranieri".
E approssimativamente
di quanti membri è composta la Mattachine Society?
"Adesso abbiamo
circa 117 membri.
Con molta probabilità, a fine anno ne conteremo 150.
L'interesse verso il nostro ambito
è sicuramente vasto, ma le persone sono restie a mostrarlo apertamente.
Tutti i membri hanno oltre 21 anni".