The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist
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0:01 - 0:02Cloe Shasha: So welcome, Ibram,
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0:02 - 0:04and thank you so much for joining us.
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0:07 - 0:09Ibram X. Kendi: Well, thank you, Cloe,
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0:09 - 0:11and Whitney,
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0:11 - 0:14and thank you everyone
for joining this conversation. -
0:14 - 0:16And so, a few weeks ago,
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0:16 - 0:22on the same day we learned
about the brutal murder of George Floyd, -
0:22 - 0:28we also learned that
a white woman in Central Park -
0:28 - 0:31who chose not to leash her dog
-
0:31 - 0:37and was told by a black man nearby
that she needed to leash her dog, -
0:37 - 0:41instead decided
to threaten this black male, -
0:41 - 0:43instead decided to call the police
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0:44 - 0:47and claim that her life
was being threatened. -
0:47 - 0:50And of course, when we learned
about that through a video, -
0:50 - 0:53many Americans were outraged,
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0:53 - 0:55and this woman, Amy Cooper,
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0:55 - 0:58ended up going on national TV
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0:58 - 1:00and saying,
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1:00 - 1:06like countless other Americans have said
right after they engaged in a racist act, -
1:06 - 1:08"I am not racist."
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1:08 - 1:10And I say countless Americans,
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1:10 - 1:14because when you really think
about the history of Americans -
1:14 - 1:16expressing racist ideas,
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1:16 - 1:19supporting racist policies,
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1:19 - 1:22you're really talking
about a history of people -
1:22 - 1:23who have claimed they're not racist,
-
1:24 - 1:26because everyone claims
that they're not racist, -
1:26 - 1:30whether we're talking
about the Amy Coopers of the world, -
1:30 - 1:32whether we're talking about Donald Trump,
-
1:32 - 1:35who, right after he said
that majority-black Baltimore -
1:35 - 1:40is a rat and rodent-infested mess
that no human being would want to live in, -
1:40 - 1:42and he was challenged as being racist,
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1:42 - 1:46he said, "Actually, I'm the least racist
person anywhere in the world." -
1:46 - 1:49And so really the heartbeat
of racism itself -
1:49 - 1:51has always been denial,
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1:51 - 1:54and the sound of that heartbeat
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1:54 - 1:57has always been, "I'm not racist."
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1:57 - 2:00And so what I'm trying to do with my work
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2:00 - 2:04is to really get Americans
to eliminate the concept of "not racist" -
2:04 - 2:06from their vocabulary,
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2:06 - 2:09and realize we're either being racist
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2:09 - 2:10or anti-racist.
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2:10 - 2:15We're either expressing ideas
that suggest certain racial groups -
2:15 - 2:17are better or worse than others,
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2:18 - 2:20superior or inferior than others.
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2:20 - 2:22We're either being racist,
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2:22 - 2:23or we're being anti-racist.
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2:23 - 2:29We're expressing notions
that the racial groups are equals, -
2:29 - 2:32despite any cultural
or even ethnic differences. -
2:32 - 2:35We're either supporting
policies that are leading -
2:35 - 2:38to racial inequities and injustice,
-
2:38 - 2:42like we saw in Louisville,
where Breonna Taylor was murdered, -
2:42 - 2:46or we're supporting policies
and pushing policies -
2:46 - 2:50that are leading to justice
and equity for all. -
2:50 - 2:53And so I think we should be very clear
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2:53 - 2:56about whether we're
expressing racist ideas, -
2:56 - 3:00about whether we're
supporting racist policies, -
3:00 - 3:02and admit when we are,
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3:02 - 3:04because to be anti-racist
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3:04 - 3:08is to admit when
we expressed a racist idea, -
3:08 - 3:10is to say, "You know what?
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3:10 - 3:12When I was doing that in Central Park,
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3:12 - 3:14I was indeed being racist.
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3:14 - 3:16But I'm going to change.
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3:16 - 3:18I'm going to strive to be anti-racist."
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3:18 - 3:20And to be racist
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3:20 - 3:22is to constantly deny
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3:22 - 3:26the racial inequities
that pervade American society, -
3:26 - 3:31to constantly deny the racist ideas
that pervade American minds. -
3:31 - 3:35And so I want to built
a just and equitable society, -
3:35 - 3:38and the only way we're going
to even begin that process -
3:38 - 3:41is if we admit our racism
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3:41 - 3:43and start building an anti-racist world.
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3:44 - 3:46Thank you.
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3:50 - 3:52CS: Thank you so much for that.
-
3:54 - 3:57You know, your book,
"How to Be an Antiracist," -
3:57 - 4:00has become a bestseller
in light of what's been happening, -
4:00 - 4:02and you've been speaking a bit
-
4:02 - 4:06to the ways in which
anti-racism and racism -
4:06 - 4:12are the only two polar opposite ways
to hold a view on racism. -
4:12 - 4:14I'm curious if you
could talk a little bit more -
4:14 - 4:17about what the basic tenets
of anti-racism are, -
4:17 - 4:22for people who aren't as familiar with it
in terms of how they can be anti-racist. -
4:22 - 4:26IXK: Sure. And so I mentioned in my talk
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4:26 - 4:32that the heartbeat of racism is denial,
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4:32 - 4:36and really the heartbeat
of anti-racism is confession, -
4:36 - 4:38is the recognition
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4:38 - 4:41that to grow up in this society
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4:41 - 4:44is to literally at some point in our lives
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4:44 - 4:48probably internalize
ideas that are racist, -
4:48 - 4:54ideas that suggest certain racial groups
are better or worse than others, -
4:54 - 4:56and because we believe
in racial hierarchy, -
4:56 - 5:00because Americans
have been systematically taught -
5:00 - 5:03that black people are more dangerous,
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5:03 - 5:05that black people are more criminal-like,
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5:05 - 5:08when we live in a society
where black people -
5:08 - 5:12are 40 percent of the national
incarcerated population, -
5:12 - 5:14that's going to seem normal to people.
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5:14 - 5:16When we live in a society
-
5:16 - 5:17in a city like Minneapolis
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5:17 - 5:21where black people
are 20 percent of the population -
5:21 - 5:26but more than 60 percent of the people
being subjected to police shootings, -
5:26 - 5:27it's going to seem normal.
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5:27 - 5:29And so to be anti-racist
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5:29 - 5:32is to believe that there's nothing wrong
-
5:32 - 5:35or inferior about black people
or any other racial group. -
5:35 - 5:36There's nothing dangerous
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5:36 - 5:40about black people
or any other racial group. -
5:40 - 5:44And so when we see these
racial disparities all around us, -
5:44 - 5:46we see them as abnormal,
-
5:46 - 5:51and then we start to figure out, OK,
what policies are behind -
5:52 - 5:54so many black people
being killed by police? -
5:54 - 5:58What policies are behind
so many Latinx people -
5:58 - 6:01being disproportionately
infected with COVID? -
6:01 - 6:03How can I be a part of the struggle
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6:03 - 6:07to upend those policies and replace them
with more antiracist policies? -
6:09 - 6:11Whitney Pennington Rodgers:
And so it sounds like -
6:11 - 6:16you do make that distinction, then,
between not racist and anti-racist. -
6:16 - 6:19I guess, could you talk a little bit
more about that and break that down? -
6:19 - 6:22What is the difference between the two?
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6:22 - 6:24IXK: In the most simplest way,
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6:24 - 6:29a not racist is a racist who is in denial,
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6:29 - 6:32and an anti-racist is someone
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6:32 - 6:36who is willing to admit the times
in which they are being racist, -
6:36 - 6:39and who is willing to recognize
-
6:39 - 6:44the inequities and
the racial problems of our society, -
6:44 - 6:48and who is willing to challenge
those racial inequities -
6:48 - 6:50by challenging policy.
-
6:50 - 6:55And so I'm saying this because
literally slaveholders, slave traders, -
6:55 - 7:00imagined that their ideas
in our terms were not racist. -
7:00 - 7:01They would say things like,
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7:01 - 7:04"Black people are the cursed
descendants of Ham, -
7:04 - 7:08and they're cursed forever
into enslavement." -
7:08 - 7:10This isn't, "I'm not racist."
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7:10 - 7:11This is, "God's law."
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7:11 - 7:13They would say things, like, you know,
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7:13 - 7:16"Based on science, based on ethnology,
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7:16 - 7:18based on natural history,
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7:18 - 7:21black people by nature
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7:21 - 7:24are predisposed to slavery and servility.
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7:24 - 7:26This is nature's law. I'm not racist.
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7:26 - 7:30I'm actually doing what nature
said I'm supposed to be doing." -
7:30 - 7:36And so this construct of being not racist
and denying one's racism -
7:36 - 7:39goes all the way back
to the origins of this country. -
7:42 - 7:43CS: Yeah.
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7:43 - 7:46And why do you think it has been so hard
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7:46 - 7:49for some people now to still accept
that neutrality is not enough -
7:50 - 7:51when it comes to racism?
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7:52 - 7:57IXK: I think because it takes
a lot of work to be anti-racist. -
7:57 - 7:59You have to be very vulnerable, right?
-
7:59 - 8:03You have to be willing to admit
that you were wrong. -
8:03 - 8:05You have to be willing to admit
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8:05 - 8:08that if you have more,
if you're white, for instance, -
8:08 - 8:09and you have more,
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8:10 - 8:12it may not be because you are more.
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8:12 - 8:15You have to admit that,
yeah, you've worked hard -
8:15 - 8:16potentially, in your life,
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8:16 - 8:19but you've also had certain advantages
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8:19 - 8:21which provided you with opportunities
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8:21 - 8:23that other people did not have.
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8:23 - 8:25You have to admit those things,
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8:25 - 8:26and it's very difficult
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8:26 - 8:29for people to be publicly,
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8:29 - 8:32and even privately, self-critical.
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8:32 - 8:34I think it's also the case of,
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8:34 - 8:36and I should have probably led with this,
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8:36 - 8:39how people define "racist."
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8:39 - 8:41And so people tend to define "racist"
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8:41 - 8:44as, like, a fixed category,
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8:44 - 8:45as an identity.
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8:46 - 8:49This is essential to who a person is.
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8:49 - 8:52Someone becomes a racist.
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8:52 - 8:55And so therefore --
-
8:55 - 8:59And then they also connect a racist
with a bad, evil person. -
8:59 - 9:03They connect a racist
with a Ku Klux Klansman or woman. -
9:03 - 9:06And they're like,
"I'm not in the Ku Klux Klan, -
9:06 - 9:08I'm not a bad person
-
9:08 - 9:11and I've done good things in my life.
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9:11 - 9:14I've done good things to people of color.
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9:14 - 9:16And so therefore I can't be racist.
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9:16 - 9:18I'm not that. That's not my identity.
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9:18 - 9:21But that's actually not
how we should be defining racist. -
9:21 - 9:24Racist is a descriptive term.
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9:24 - 9:29It describes what a person
is saying or doing in any given moment, -
9:29 - 9:31and so when a person in one moment
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9:31 - 9:34is expressing a racist idea,
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9:34 - 9:38in that moment they are being racist
when they're saying black people are lazy. -
9:38 - 9:39If in the very next moment
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9:39 - 9:42they're appreciating the cultures
of native people, -
9:42 - 9:44they're being anti-racist.
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9:47 - 9:49WPR: And we're going to get
to some questions -
9:49 - 9:51from our community in a moment,
-
9:51 - 9:54but I think when a lot of people hear
this idea that you're putting forward, -
9:54 - 9:56this idea of anti-racism,
-
9:56 - 9:58there's this feeling
that this is something -
9:58 - 10:00that only concerns the white community.
-
10:00 - 10:04And so could you speak a little bit
to how the black community -
10:04 - 10:09and nonwhite, other ethnic minorities
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10:09 - 10:13can participate in and think about
this idea of anti-racism? -
10:13 - 10:15IXK: Sure.
-
10:15 - 10:19So if white Americans
commonly say, "I'm not racist," -
10:19 - 10:21people of color commonly say,
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10:21 - 10:23"I can't be racist,
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10:23 - 10:25because I'm a person of color."
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10:25 - 10:32And then some people of color
say they can't be racist -
10:32 - 10:34because they have no power.
-
10:34 - 10:38And so, first and foremost,
-
10:38 - 10:42what I've tried to do in my work
is to push back against this idea -
10:42 - 10:45that people of color have no power.
-
10:45 - 10:47There's nothing more disempowering
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10:47 - 10:51to say, or to think, as a person of color,
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10:52 - 10:53than to say you have no power.
-
10:53 - 10:57People of color have long utilized
the most basic power -
10:57 - 11:00that every human being has,
-
11:00 - 11:04and that's the power to resist policy --
-
11:04 - 11:07that's the power to resist
racist policies, -
11:07 - 11:10that's the power to resist
a racist society. -
11:10 - 11:12But if you're a person of color,
-
11:12 - 11:17and you believe that people coming here
-
11:17 - 11:20from Honduras and El Salvador
-
11:20 - 11:22are invading this country,
-
11:22 - 11:25you believe that these Latinx immigrants
-
11:25 - 11:27are animals and rapists,
-
11:27 - 11:31then you're certainly not,
if you're black or Asian or native, -
11:31 - 11:34going to be a part of the struggle
-
11:34 - 11:37to defend Latinx immigrants,
-
11:37 - 11:44to recognize that Latinx immigrants
have as much to give to this country -
11:44 - 11:45as any other group of people,
-
11:45 - 11:49you're going to view these people
as "taking away your jobs," -
11:49 - 11:52and so therefore you're going
to support racist rhetoric, -
11:52 - 11:55you're going to support racist policies,
-
11:55 - 12:01and even though that is probably
going to be harming you, -
12:01 - 12:03in other words, it's going to be harming,
-
12:03 - 12:06if you're black, immigrants
coming from Haiti and Nigeria, -
12:06 - 12:10if you're Asian,
immigrants coming from India. -
12:10 - 12:14So I think it's critically important
for even people of color -
12:14 - 12:17to realize they have the power to resist,
-
12:17 - 12:23and when people of color
view other people of color as the problem, -
12:23 - 12:26they're not going
to view racism as the problem. -
12:26 - 12:31And anyone who is not viewing
racism as the problem -
12:31 - 12:34is not being anti-racist.
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12:38 - 12:42CS: You touched on this a bit
in your beginning talk here, -
12:42 - 12:46but you've talked about how
racism is the reason -
12:46 - 12:48that black communities
and communities of color -
12:48 - 12:51are systematically
disadvantaged in America, -
12:51 - 12:55which has led to so many more deaths
from COVID-19 in those communities. -
12:55 - 12:58And yet the media is often
placing the blame on people of color -
12:58 - 13:01for their vulnerability to illness.
-
13:01 - 13:04So I'm curious, in line with that,
-
13:04 - 13:07what is the relationship
between anti-racism -
13:07 - 13:09and the potential for systemic change?
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13:11 - 13:15IXK: I think it's a direct relationship,
-
13:15 - 13:17because when you are --
-
13:19 - 13:23when you believe
and have consumed racist ideas, -
13:23 - 13:26you're not going to even believe
change is necessary -
13:26 - 13:30because you're going to believe
that racial inequality is normal. -
13:30 - 13:33Or, you're not going
to believe change is possible. -
13:33 - 13:37In other words, you're going to believe
that the reason why black people -
13:37 - 13:41are being killed by police
at such high rates -
13:41 - 13:46or the reason why Latinx people
are being infected at such high rates -
13:46 - 13:48is because there's
something wrong with them, -
13:48 - 13:50and nothing can be changed.
-
13:50 - 13:54And so you wouldn't even
begin to even see the need -
13:54 - 13:56for systemic structural change,
-
13:56 - 14:00let alone be a part of the struggle
for systemic structural change. -
14:00 - 14:04And so, to be anti-racist, again,
-
14:04 - 14:06is to recognize
-
14:06 - 14:10that there's only two causes
of racial inequity: -
14:10 - 14:13either there's something
wrong with people, -
14:13 - 14:16or there's something wrong
with power and policy. -
14:16 - 14:20And if you realize that there's
nothing wrong with any group of people, -
14:20 - 14:23and I keep mentioning groups --
-
14:23 - 14:24I'm not saying individuals.
-
14:24 - 14:27There's certainly black individuals
-
14:27 - 14:30who didn't take coronavirus seriously,
-
14:30 - 14:32which is one of the reasons
why they were infected. -
14:32 - 14:35But there are white people
who didn't take coronavirus seriously. -
14:35 - 14:38No one has ever proven,
actually studies have shown -
14:38 - 14:42that black people were more likely
to take the coronavirus seriously -
14:42 - 14:44than white people.
-
14:44 - 14:46We're not talking about individuals here,
-
14:46 - 14:49and we certainly should not
be individualizing groups. -
14:49 - 14:53We certainly should not be looking
at the individual behavior -
14:53 - 14:56of one Latinx person or one black person,
-
14:56 - 14:59and saying they're
representatives of the group. -
14:59 - 15:01That's a racist idea in and of itself.
-
15:01 - 15:02And so I'm talking about groups,
-
15:02 - 15:05and if you believe that groups are equals,
-
15:05 - 15:07then the only other alternative,
-
15:07 - 15:12the only other explanation
to persisting inequity and injustice, -
15:12 - 15:14is power and policy.
-
15:14 - 15:20And to then spend your time transforming
and challenging power and policy -
15:20 - 15:23is to spend your time being anti-racist.
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15:26 - 15:29WPR: So we have some questions
that are coming in from the audience. -
15:30 - 15:32First one here is from a community member
-
15:32 - 15:35that asks, "When we talk
about white privilege, -
15:35 - 15:38we talk also about the privilege
not to have the difficult conversations. -
15:38 - 15:41Do you feel that's starting to change?"
-
15:43 - 15:46IXK: I hope so,
-
15:46 - 15:48because I think
-
15:48 - 15:53that white Americans, too,
-
15:53 - 15:57need to simultaneously recognize
-
15:57 - 15:59their privileges,
-
15:59 - 16:02the privileges that they have accrued
-
16:02 - 16:05as a result of their whiteness,
-
16:05 - 16:08and the only way in which
they're going to be able to do that -
16:08 - 16:11is by initiating and having
these conversations. -
16:11 - 16:13But then they also should recognize
-
16:13 - 16:16that, yes, they have more,
-
16:16 - 16:18white Americans have more,
-
16:18 - 16:20due to racist policy,
-
16:20 - 16:23but the question I think
white Americans should be having, -
16:23 - 16:27particularly when they're having
these conversations among themselves, -
16:27 - 16:33is, if we had a more equitable society,
-
16:33 - 16:35would we have more?
-
16:35 - 16:38Because what I'm asking is that, you know,
-
16:38 - 16:41white Americans have more
because of racism, -
16:41 - 16:45but there are other groups of people
in other Western democracies -
16:46 - 16:47who have more than white Americans,
-
16:48 - 16:49and then you start to ask the question,
-
16:49 - 16:53why is it that people in other countries
have free health care? -
16:53 - 16:56Why is it that they
have paid family leave? -
16:56 - 16:59Why is it that they have
a massive safety net? -
16:59 - 17:01Why is it that we do not?
-
17:01 - 17:05And one of the major answers
-
17:05 - 17:09to why we do not here have is racism.
-
17:09 - 17:12One of the major answers as to why
-
17:12 - 17:14Donald Trump is President
of the United States -
17:14 - 17:16is racism.
-
17:16 - 17:22And so I'm not really asking
white Americans to be altruistic -
17:22 - 17:23in order to be anti-racist.
-
17:23 - 17:26We're really asking people
-
17:26 - 17:28to have intelligent self-interest.
-
17:28 - 17:34Those four million, I should say
five million poor whites in 1860 -
17:34 - 17:38whose poverty was the direct result
-
17:38 - 17:42of the riches of a few thousand
white slaveholding families, -
17:42 - 17:44in order to challenge slavery,
-
17:44 - 17:47we weren't saying, you know,
we need you to be altruistic. -
17:47 - 17:51No, we actually need you
to do what's in your self-interest. -
17:51 - 17:56Those tens of millions of Americans,
white Americans, who have lost their jobs -
17:56 - 17:58as a result of this pandemic,
-
17:58 - 18:01we're not asking them to be altruistic.
-
18:01 - 18:05We're asking them to realize that
if we had a different type of government -
18:05 - 18:07with a different set of priorities,
-
18:08 - 18:10then they would be
much better off right now. -
18:14 - 18:17I'm sorry, don't get me started.
-
18:17 - 18:19CS: No, we're grateful to you. Thank you.
-
18:20 - 18:22And in line with that,
-
18:23 - 18:27obviously these protests and this movement
have led to some progress: -
18:27 - 18:30the removal of Confederate monuments,
-
18:30 - 18:34the Minneapolis City Council pledging
to dismantle the police department, etc. -
18:34 - 18:38But what do you view
as the greatest priority on a policy level -
18:38 - 18:40as this fight for justice continues?
-
18:40 - 18:44Are there any ways in which
we could learn from other countries? -
18:46 - 18:50IXK: I don't actually think necessarily
-
18:50 - 18:55there's a singular policy priority.
-
18:56 - 19:00I mean, if someone was
to force me to answer, -
19:00 - 19:03I would probably say two,
-
19:03 - 19:05and that is,
-
19:05 - 19:08high quality free health care for all,
-
19:08 - 19:11and when I say high quality,
-
19:11 - 19:15I'm not just talking about
Medicare For All, -
19:15 - 19:17I'm talking about a simultaneous scenario
-
19:17 - 19:22in which in rural southwest Georgia,
-
19:22 - 19:26where the people are predominantly black
-
19:26 - 19:29and have some of the highest
death rates in the country, -
19:29 - 19:31those counties in southwest Georgia,
-
19:31 - 19:32from COVID,
-
19:32 - 19:35that they would have access to health care
-
19:35 - 19:40as high quality as people do
in Atlanta and New York City, -
19:40 - 19:42and then, simultaneously,
-
19:42 - 19:46that that health care would be free.
-
19:46 - 19:50So many Americans not only of course
are dying this year of COVID -
19:50 - 19:53but also of heart disease and cancer,
-
19:53 - 19:57which are the number one killers
before COVID of Americans, -
19:57 - 20:00and they're disproportionately black.
-
20:00 - 20:01And so I would say that,
-
20:01 - 20:05and then secondarily,
I would say reparations. -
20:05 - 20:08And many Americans claim
-
20:09 - 20:13that they believe in racial equality,
-
20:13 - 20:16they want to bring about racial equality.
-
20:16 - 20:23Many Americans recognize
just how critical economic livelihood is -
20:23 - 20:27for every person in this country,
in this economic system. -
20:27 - 20:33But then many Americans reject
or are not supportive of reparations. -
20:33 - 20:36And so we have a situation
-
20:36 - 20:38in which white Americans
-
20:38 - 20:40are, last I checked,
-
20:40 - 20:44their median wealth is 10 times
the median wealth of black Americans, -
20:44 - 20:47and according to a recent study,
-
20:47 - 20:49by 2053 --
-
20:50 - 20:54between now, I should say, and 2053,
-
20:54 - 20:56white median wealth is projected to grow,
-
20:56 - 21:00and this was before
this current recession, -
21:00 - 21:04and black median wealth
-
21:04 - 21:07is expected to redline at zero dollars,
-
21:07 - 21:11and that, based on this current recession,
that may be pushed up a decade. -
21:11 - 21:14And so we not only have
a racial wealth gap, -
21:14 - 21:17but we have a racial wealth gap
that's growing. -
21:17 - 21:20And so for those Americans who claim
-
21:20 - 21:23they are committed to racial equality
-
21:23 - 21:27who also recognize the importance
of economic livelihood -
21:27 - 21:32and who also know
that wealth is inherited, -
21:32 - 21:35and the majority of wealth is inherited,
-
21:35 - 21:38and when you think of the inheritance,
-
21:38 - 21:39you're thinking of past,
-
21:39 - 21:41and the past policies
-
21:41 - 21:44that many Americans consider to be racist,
-
21:44 - 21:47whether it's slavery or even redlining,
-
21:47 - 21:50how would we even begin to close
-
21:50 - 21:52this growing racial wealth gap
-
21:52 - 21:56without a massive program
like reparations? -
21:58 - 22:02WPR: Well, sort of connected to this idea
of thinking about wealth disparity -
22:02 - 22:04and wealth inequality in this country,
-
22:04 - 22:07we have a question
from community member Dana Perls. -
22:07 - 22:09She asks, "How do you suggest
liberal white organizations -
22:09 - 22:13effectively address problems of racism
within the work environment, -
22:13 - 22:17particularly in environments where people
remain silent in the face of racism -
22:17 - 22:19or make token statements
without looking internally?" -
22:21 - 22:22IXK: Sure.
-
22:22 - 22:24And so I would make a few suggestions.
-
22:24 - 22:29One, for several decades now,
-
22:29 - 22:35every workplace has publicly pledged
-
22:35 - 22:37a commitment to diversity.
-
22:37 - 22:40Typically, they have diversity statements.
-
22:40 - 22:43I would basically rip up
those diversity statements -
22:43 - 22:44and write a new statement,
-
22:44 - 22:48and that's a statement
committed to anti-racism. -
22:48 - 22:54And in that statement you would
clearly define what a racist idea is, -
22:54 - 22:56what an anti-racist idea is,
-
22:56 - 23:00what a racist policy is
and what an anti-racist policy is. -
23:00 - 23:04And you would state as a workplace
that you're committed -
23:04 - 23:09to having a culture of anti-racist ideas
-
23:09 - 23:15and having an institution
made up of anti-racist policies. -
23:15 - 23:19And so then everybody
can measure everyone's ideas -
23:19 - 23:24and the policies of that workplace
based on that document. -
23:24 - 23:29And I think that that could begin
the process of transformation. -
23:29 - 23:32I also think it's critically important
-
23:32 - 23:39for workplaces to not only
diversify their staff -
23:39 - 23:42but diversify their upper administration.
-
23:44 - 23:47And I think that's
absolutely critical as well. -
23:50 - 23:53CS: We have some more questions
coming in from the audience. -
23:53 - 23:57We have one from Melissa Mahoney,
-
23:57 - 24:02who is asking, "Donald Trump seems
to be making supporting Black Lives Matter -
24:02 - 24:04a partisan issue,
-
24:04 - 24:06for example making fun of Mitt Romney
-
24:06 - 24:08for participating in a peaceful protest.
-
24:08 - 24:11How do we uncouple this
to make it nonpartisan?" -
24:14 - 24:20IXK: Well, I mean, I think that
to say the lives of black people -
24:20 - 24:23is a Democratic declaration
-
24:23 - 24:26is simultaneously stating
-
24:26 - 24:30that Republicans do not value black life.
-
24:30 - 24:35If that's essentially
what Donald Trump is saying, -
24:35 - 24:37if he's stating
-
24:37 - 24:43that there's a problem
with marching for black lives, -
24:43 - 24:44then what is the solution?
-
24:44 - 24:48The solution is not marching.
What's the other alternative? -
24:48 - 24:50The other alternative
is not marching for black lives. -
24:50 - 24:54The other alternative is not caring
when black people die of police violence -
24:54 - 24:56or COVID.
-
24:56 - 25:03And so to me, the way in which
we make this a nonpartisan issue -
25:03 - 25:04is to strike back
-
25:04 - 25:06or argue back in that way,
-
25:06 - 25:09and obviously Republicans
are going to claim -
25:09 - 25:11they're not saying that,
-
25:11 - 25:12but it's a very simple thing:
-
25:12 - 25:14either you believe black lives matter
-
25:14 - 25:16or you don't,
-
25:16 - 25:18and if you believe black lives matter
-
25:18 - 25:20because you believe in human rights,
-
25:20 - 25:25then you believe in the human right
for black people and all people to live -
25:25 - 25:29and to not have to fear police violence
-
25:29 - 25:32and not have to fear the state
-
25:32 - 25:35and not have to fear
that a peaceful protest -
25:35 - 25:36is going to be broken up
-
25:36 - 25:39because some politician
wants to get a campaign op, -
25:40 - 25:43then you're going to institute
policy that shows it. -
25:43 - 25:44Or, you're not.
-
25:47 - 25:49WPR: So I want to ask a question
-
25:49 - 25:52just about how people
can think about anti-racism -
25:52 - 25:56and how they can actually
bring this into their lives. -
25:56 - 25:58I imagine that a lot of folks,
-
25:58 - 26:00they hear this and they're like,
-
26:00 - 26:02oh, you know,
I have to be really thoughtful -
26:02 - 26:06about how my actions and my words
-
26:06 - 26:07are perceived.
-
26:07 - 26:10What is the perceived intention
behind what it is that I'm saying, -
26:10 - 26:13and that that may feel exhausting,
-
26:13 - 26:15and I think that connects
even to this idea of policy. -
26:15 - 26:17And so I'm curious.
-
26:17 - 26:19There is a huge element of thoughtfulness
-
26:19 - 26:20that comes along
-
26:20 - 26:22with this work of being anti-racist.
-
26:22 - 26:27And what is your reaction and response
to those who feel concerned -
26:27 - 26:32about the mental exhaustion
from having to constantly think -
26:32 - 26:36about how your actions
may hurt or harm others? -
26:38 - 26:45IXK: So I think part of the concern
that people have about mental exhaustion -
26:45 - 26:48is this idea
-
26:48 - 26:51that they don't ever
want to make a mistake, -
26:51 - 26:57and I think to be anti-racist
-
26:57 - 26:59is to make mistakes,
-
26:59 - 27:04and is to recognize
when we make a mistake. -
27:04 - 27:09For us, what's critical
is to have those very clear definitions -
27:09 - 27:13so that we can assess our words,
-
27:13 - 27:15we can assess our deeds,
-
27:15 - 27:17and when we make a mistake,
we just own up to it and say, -
27:17 - 27:20"You know what, that was a racist idea."
-
27:20 - 27:24"You know what, I was supporting
a racist policy, but I'm going to change." -
27:24 - 27:29The other thing I think
is important for us to realize -
27:29 - 27:32is in many ways
-
27:32 - 27:34we are addicted,
-
27:34 - 27:39and when I say we, individuals
and certainly this country, -
27:39 - 27:41is addicted to racism,
-
27:41 - 27:45and that's one of the reasons why
-
27:45 - 27:48for so many people they're just in denial.
-
27:48 - 27:52People usually deny their addictions.
-
27:52 - 27:56But then, once we realize
that we have this addiction, -
27:57 - 27:59everyone who has been addicted,
-
27:59 - 28:02you know, you talk
to friends and family members -
28:02 - 28:06who are overcoming an addiction
to substance abuse, -
28:06 - 28:07they're not going to say
-
28:07 - 28:10that they're just healed,
-
28:10 - 28:14that they don't have
to think about this regularly. -
28:14 - 28:17You know, someone who is
overcoming alcoholism -
28:17 - 28:21is going to say, "You know what,
this is a day-by-day process, -
28:21 - 28:25and I take it day by day
-
28:25 - 28:27and moment by moment,
-
28:27 - 28:30and yes, it's difficult
-
28:30 - 28:34to restrain myself
-
28:34 - 28:38from reverting back
to what I'm addicted to, -
28:38 - 28:40but at the same time it's liberating,
-
28:40 - 28:42it's freeing,
-
28:42 - 28:45because I'm no longer
having to wallow in that addiction. -
28:45 - 28:49And so I think, and I'm no longer
having to hurt people -
28:49 - 28:51due to my addiction."
-
28:51 - 28:52And I think that's critical.
-
28:52 - 28:57We spend too much time
thinking about how we feel -
28:57 - 29:02and less time thinking about how
our actions and ideas make others feel. -
29:02 - 29:05And I think that's one thing
that the George Floyd video -
29:05 - 29:07forced Americans to do
-
29:07 - 29:11was to really see and hear, especially,
-
29:11 - 29:13how someone feels
-
29:13 - 29:15as a result of their racism.
-
29:20 - 29:23CS: We have another question
from the audience. -
29:23 - 29:26This one is asking about,
-
29:26 - 29:28"Can you speak to the intersectionality
-
29:28 - 29:31between the work of anti-racism,
feminism and gay rights? -
29:32 - 29:34How does the work of anti-racism
relate and affect the work -
29:34 - 29:36of these other human rights issues?"
-
29:38 - 29:39IXK: Sure.
-
29:39 - 29:44So I define a racist idea
-
29:44 - 29:49as any idea that suggests
a racial group is superior -
29:49 - 29:52or inferior to another
racial group in any way. -
29:52 - 29:55And I use the term racial group
-
29:55 - 29:57as opposed to race
-
29:57 - 30:04because every race is a collection
of racialized intersectional groups, -
30:04 - 30:07and so you have black women and black men
-
30:07 - 30:12and you have black heterosexuals
and black queer people, -
30:12 - 30:18just as you have Latinx women
and white women and Asian men, -
30:18 - 30:21and what's critical for us to understand
-
30:21 - 30:25is there hasn't just been racist ideas
-
30:25 - 30:28that have targeted,
let's say, black people. -
30:28 - 30:31There has been racist ideas
that have been developed -
30:31 - 30:33and have targeted black women,
-
30:33 - 30:35that have targeted black lesbians,
-
30:35 - 30:38that have targeted
black transgender women. -
30:38 - 30:44And oftentimes these racist ideas
targeting these intersectional groups -
30:44 - 30:47are intersecting
with other forms of bigotry -
30:47 - 30:49that is also targeting these groups.
-
30:49 - 30:52To give an example about black women,
-
30:52 - 30:56one of the oldest racist ideas
about black women -
30:56 - 30:59was this idea that they're inferior women
-
30:59 - 31:02or that they're not even women at all,
-
31:02 - 31:04and that they're inferior to white women,
-
31:04 - 31:07who are the pinnacle of womanhood.
-
31:08 - 31:11And that idea has intersected
-
31:11 - 31:14with this sexist idea
-
31:14 - 31:16that suggests that women are weak,
-
31:16 - 31:21that the more weak a person is,
a woman is, the more woman she is, -
31:22 - 31:27and the stronger a woman is,
the more masculine she is. -
31:27 - 31:30These two ideas have intersected
-
31:30 - 31:35to constantly degrade black women
-
31:35 - 31:41as this idea of the strong,
black masculine woman -
31:41 - 31:46who is inferior to the weak, white woman.
-
31:46 - 31:49And so the only way
to really understand these constructs -
31:49 - 31:53of a weak, superfeminine white woman
-
31:53 - 31:55and a strong, hypermasculine black woman
-
31:55 - 31:58is to understand sexist ideas,
-
31:58 - 32:01is to reject sexist ideas,
-
32:01 - 32:05and I'll say very quickly,
the same goes for the intersection -
32:05 - 32:07of racism and homophobia,
-
32:07 - 32:11in which black queer people
have been subjected to this idea -
32:11 - 32:13that they are more hypersexual
-
32:13 - 32:16because there's this idea of queer people
-
32:16 - 32:19as being more hypersexual
than heterosexuals. -
32:19 - 32:22And so black queer people have been tagged
-
32:22 - 32:26as more hypersexual
than white queer people -
32:26 - 32:28and black heterosexuals.
-
32:28 - 32:32And you can't really see that
and understand that and reject that -
32:32 - 32:36if you're not rejecting and understanding
and challenging homophobia too. -
32:39 - 32:40WPR: And to this point of challenging,
-
32:40 - 32:44we have another question
from Maryam Mohit in our community, -
32:44 - 32:48who asks, "How do you see cancel culture
and anti-racism interacting. -
32:48 - 32:51For example, when someone
did something obviously racist in the past -
32:51 - 32:52and it comes to light?"
-
32:54 - 32:56How do we respond to that?
-
32:56 - 32:57IXK: Wow.
-
32:57 - 32:59So I think it's very, very complex.
-
33:00 - 33:06I do obviously encourage people
-
33:06 - 33:07to transform themselves,
-
33:07 - 33:13to change, to admit those times
in which they were being racist, -
33:13 - 33:17and so obviously we as a community
-
33:17 - 33:19have to give people
that ability to do that. -
33:19 - 33:25We can't, when someone admits
that they were being racist, -
33:25 - 33:29we can't immediately
obviously cancel them. -
33:29 - 33:31But I also think
-
33:31 - 33:34that there are people
-
33:34 - 33:37who do something so egregious
-
33:37 - 33:42and there are people who are so unwilling
-
33:42 - 33:48to recognize how egregious
what they just did is, -
33:48 - 33:49so in a particular moment,
-
33:49 - 33:54so not just the horrible, vicious act,
-
33:54 - 33:56but then on top of that
-
33:56 - 34:01the refusal to even admit
the horrible, vicious act. -
34:01 - 34:07In that case, I could see how people
would literally want to cancel them, -
34:07 - 34:12and I think that we have to,
-
34:12 - 34:14on the other hand,
-
34:14 - 34:17we have to have some sort of consequence,
-
34:17 - 34:20public consequence, cultural consequence,
-
34:20 - 34:23for people acting in a racist manner,
-
34:23 - 34:26especially in an extremely egregious way.
-
34:26 - 34:28And for many people, they've decided,
-
34:28 - 34:30you know what, I'm just
going to cancel folks. -
34:30 - 34:32And I'm not going
to necessarily critique them, -
34:32 - 34:34but I do think we should try
to figure out a way -
34:34 - 34:40to discern those who are refusing
-
34:40 - 34:42to transform themselves
-
34:42 - 34:46and those who made a mistake
and recognized it -
34:46 - 34:48and truly are committed
to transforming themselves. -
34:53 - 34:54CS: Yeah, I mean,
-
34:54 - 34:57one of the concerns
many activists have been expressing -
34:57 - 35:00is that the energy behind
the Black Lives Matter movement -
35:00 - 35:01has to stay high
-
35:01 - 35:03for anti-racist change
to truly take place. -
35:03 - 35:06I think that applies
to what you just said as well. -
35:07 - 35:10And I guess I'm curious
what your opinion is -
35:10 - 35:12on when the protests start to wane
-
35:12 - 35:16and people's donation-matching campaigns
fade into the background, -
35:16 - 35:19how can we all ensure
that this conversation -
35:19 - 35:20about anti-racism stays central?
-
35:23 - 35:24IXK: Sure.
-
35:26 - 35:27So in "How to Be an Antiracist,"
-
35:28 - 35:30in one of the final chapters,
-
35:30 - 35:33is this chapter called "Failure."
-
35:33 - 35:37I talked about what I call
feelings advocacy, -
35:37 - 35:44and this is people feeling bad
about what's happening, -
35:44 - 35:45what happened to George Floyd
-
35:45 - 35:50or what happened to Ahmaud Arbery
or what happened to Breonna Taylor. -
35:50 - 35:56They just feel bad about this country
and where this country is headed. -
35:56 - 36:00And so the way
they go about feeling better -
36:00 - 36:03is by coming to a demonstration.
-
36:03 - 36:06The way they go about feeling better
-
36:06 - 36:09is by donating
to a particular organization. -
36:09 - 36:11The way they go about feeling better
-
36:11 - 36:13is reading a book.
-
36:13 - 36:18And so if this is what
many Americans are doing, -
36:19 - 36:21then once they feel better,
-
36:21 - 36:26in other words once the individual
feels better through their participation -
36:26 - 36:30in book clubs or demonstrations
-
36:30 - 36:33or donation campaigns,
-
36:33 - 36:37then nothing is going to change
except, what, their own feelings. -
36:37 - 36:40And so we need to move past our feelings.
-
36:40 - 36:44And this isn't to say
that people shouldn't feel bad, -
36:44 - 36:47but we should use our feelings,
-
36:47 - 36:52how horrible we feel
about what is going on, -
36:52 - 36:56to put into place, put into practice,
-
36:56 - 37:00anti-racist power and policies.
-
37:00 - 37:03In other words, our feelings
should be driving us. -
37:03 - 37:05They shouldn't be the end all.
-
37:05 - 37:08This should not be
about making us feel better. -
37:08 - 37:11This should be about
transforming this country, -
37:11 - 37:15and we need to keep our eyes
on transforming this country, -
37:15 - 37:17because if we don't,
-
37:17 - 37:20then once people feel better
after this is all over, -
37:20 - 37:26then we'll be back to the same situation
of being horrified by another video, -
37:26 - 37:27and then feeling bad,
-
37:27 - 37:29and then the cycle will only continue.
-
37:32 - 37:34WPR: You know, I think when we think about
-
37:34 - 37:36what sort of changes we can implement
-
37:36 - 37:39and how we could
make the system work better, -
37:39 - 37:40make our governments work better,
-
37:40 - 37:43make our police work better,
-
37:43 - 37:46are there models in other countries
-
37:46 - 37:50where -- obviously the history
in the United States is really unique -
37:50 - 37:53in terms of thinking
about race and oppression. -
37:53 - 37:57But when you look to other nations
and other cultures, -
37:57 - 37:59are there other models
that you look at as examples -
37:59 - 38:02that we could potentially implement here?
-
38:06 - 38:07IXK: I mean, there are so many.
-
38:09 - 38:13There are countries in which
police officers don't wear weapons. -
38:15 - 38:17There are countries
-
38:17 - 38:23who have more people
than the United States -
38:23 - 38:25but less prisoners.
-
38:25 - 38:27There are countries
-
38:27 - 38:30who try to fight violent crime
-
38:30 - 38:33not with more police and prisons
-
38:33 - 38:36but with more jobs and more opportunities,
-
38:36 - 38:39because they know and see
that the communities -
38:39 - 38:42with the highest levels of violent crime
-
38:42 - 38:46tend to be communities
with high levels of poverty -
38:46 - 38:48and long-term unemployment.
-
38:49 - 38:51I think that --
-
38:51 - 38:52And then, obviously,
-
38:52 - 38:59other countries provide pretty sizable
social safety nets for people -
38:59 - 39:03such that people are not
committing crimes out of poverty, -
39:03 - 39:06such that people are not
committing crimes out of despair. -
39:07 - 39:12And so I think that
it's critically important for us -
39:12 - 39:14to first and foremost
-
39:14 - 39:17think through, OK, if there's
nothing wrong with the people, -
39:18 - 39:22then how can we go about
reducing police violence? -
39:22 - 39:27How can we go about
reducing racial health inequities? -
39:27 - 39:31What policies can we change?
What policies have worked? -
39:31 - 39:34These are the types of questions
we need to be asking, -
39:34 - 39:37because there's never really
been anything wrong with the people. -
39:40 - 39:42CS: In your "Atlantic" piece
-
39:42 - 39:45called "Who Gets To Be
Afraid in America," you wrote, -
39:45 - 39:48"What I am, a black male,
should not matter. -
39:48 - 39:49Who I am should matter."
-
39:49 - 39:52And I feel that's kind of
what you're saying, -
39:52 - 39:55that in other places
maybe that's more possible, -
39:55 - 39:57and I'm curious when you imagine
-
39:57 - 40:01a country in which
who you are mattered first, -
40:01 - 40:02what does that look like?
-
40:04 - 40:08IXK: Well, what it looks like
for me as a black American -
40:08 - 40:14is that people do not view me as dangerous
-
40:14 - 40:17and thereby make my existence dangerous.
-
40:18 - 40:24It allows me to walk around this country
-
40:24 - 40:27and to not believe
that people are going to fear me -
40:27 - 40:29because of the color my skin.
-
40:29 - 40:31It allows me to believe, you know what,
-
40:31 - 40:35I didn't get that job because
I could have done better on my interview, -
40:35 - 40:37not because of the color of my skin.
-
40:37 - 40:39It allows me to --
-
40:39 - 40:42a country where there's racial equity,
-
40:42 - 40:44a country where there's racial justice,
-
40:44 - 40:49you know, a country
where there's shared opportunity, -
40:49 - 40:54a country where African American culture
and Native American culture -
40:54 - 40:59and the cultures of Mexican Americans
-
40:59 - 41:03and Korean Americans
are all valued equally, -
41:03 - 41:08that no one is being asked
to assimilate into white American culture. -
41:08 - 41:13There's no such thing
as standard professional wear. -
41:13 - 41:17There's no such thing as, well,
you need to learn how to speak English -
41:17 - 41:18in order to be an American.
-
41:18 - 41:24And we would truly not only have
equity and justice for all -
41:24 - 41:28but we would somehow have found a way
-
41:28 - 41:31to appreciate difference,
-
41:31 - 41:37to appreciate all of the human
ethnic and cultural difference -
41:37 - 41:39that exists in the United States.
-
41:39 - 41:43This is what could make
this country great, -
41:43 - 41:46in which we literally become a country
-
41:46 - 41:50where you could literally
travel around this country -
41:50 - 41:53and learn about cultures
from all over the world -
41:53 - 41:55and appreciate those cultures,
-
41:55 - 41:57and understand even your own culture
-
41:57 - 42:01from what other people are doing.
-
42:01 - 42:05There's so much beauty here
amid all this pain -
42:05 - 42:07and I just want to peel away
-
42:07 - 42:11and remove away
-
42:11 - 42:14all of those scabs of racist policies
-
42:14 - 42:15so that people can heal
-
42:15 - 42:17and so that we can see true beauty.
-
42:20 - 42:23WPR: And Ibram, when you think
about this moment, -
42:23 - 42:26where do you see that
on the spectrum of progress -
42:26 - 42:28towards reaching that true beauty?
-
42:30 - 42:32IXK: Well, I think, for me,
-
42:32 - 42:37I always see progress
and resistance in demonstrations -
42:37 - 42:43and know just because people
are calling from town squares -
42:43 - 42:45and from city halls
-
42:45 - 42:50for progressive, systemic change
that that change is here, -
42:50 - 42:52but people are calling
-
42:52 - 42:55and people are calling
in small towns, in big cities, -
42:55 - 42:58and people are calling
from places we've heard of -
42:58 - 43:01and places we need to have heard of.
-
43:01 - 43:03People are calling for change,
and people are fed up. -
43:03 - 43:06I mean, we're living in a time
-
43:06 - 43:08in which we're facing a viral pandemic,
-
43:08 - 43:12a racial pandemic
within that viral pandemic -
43:12 - 43:16of people of color disproportionately
being infected and dying, -
43:16 - 43:18even an economic pandemic
-
43:18 - 43:24with over 40 million Americans
having lost their jobs, -
43:24 - 43:28and certainly this pandemic
of police violence, -
43:28 - 43:30and then people demonstrating
against police violence -
43:30 - 43:34only to suffer police violence
at demonstrations. -
43:34 - 43:37I mean, people see
there's a fundamental problem here, -
43:37 - 43:40and there's a problem that can be solved.
-
43:40 - 43:43There's an America that can be created,
-
43:43 - 43:44and people are calling for this,
-
43:44 - 43:46and that is always the beginning.
-
43:46 - 43:49The beginning is what
we're experiencing now. -
43:52 - 43:54CS: I think that
this next audience question -
43:54 - 43:56follows well from that, which is,
-
43:56 - 43:58"What gives you hope right now?"
-
44:01 - 44:07IXK: So certainly resistance to racism
has always given me hope, -
44:07 - 44:10and so even if, let's say,
-
44:10 - 44:14six months ago we were not in a time
in which almost every night -
44:14 - 44:17all over this country people
were demonstrating against racism, -
44:17 - 44:20but I could just look to history
-
44:20 - 44:22when people were resisting.
-
44:22 - 44:26And so resistance always brings me hope,
-
44:26 - 44:29because it is always resistance,
-
44:29 - 44:31and of course it's stormy,
-
44:31 - 44:34but the rainbow
is typically on the other side. -
44:34 - 44:38But I also receive hope philosophically,
-
44:38 - 44:42because I know that in order
to bring about change, -
44:42 - 44:43we have to believe in change.
-
44:44 - 44:47There's just no way
a change maker can be cynical. -
44:47 - 44:49It's impossible.
-
44:49 - 44:52So I know I have to believe in change
-
44:52 - 44:54in order to bring it about.
-
44:58 - 45:01WPR: And we have another question here
-
45:01 - 45:03which addresses some of the things
you talked about before -
45:04 - 45:06in terms of the structural change
that we need to bring about. -
45:06 - 45:10From Maryam Mohit: "In terms of putting
into practice the transformative policies, -
45:10 - 45:13is then the most important thing
to loudly vote the right people -
45:13 - 45:17into office at every level who can make
those structural changes happen?" -
45:20 - 45:22IXK: So I think that that is part of it.
-
45:22 - 45:29I certainly think
we should vote into office -
45:29 - 45:33people who, from school boards
to the President of the United States, -
45:34 - 45:35people who are committed
-
45:35 - 45:39to instituting anti-racist policies
-
45:39 - 45:43that lead to equity and justice,
-
45:44 - 45:48and I think that
that's critically important, -
45:48 - 45:51but I don't think
-
45:51 - 45:56that we should think that that's
the only thing we should be focused on -
45:56 - 45:58or the only thing that we should be doing.
-
45:58 - 46:02And there are institutions,
-
46:02 - 46:04there are neighborhoods
-
46:04 - 46:06that need to be transformed,
-
46:06 - 46:08that are to a certain extent
-
46:08 - 46:13outside of the purview of a policymaker
-
46:13 - 46:14who is an elected official.
-
46:14 - 46:19There are administrators
and CEOs and presidents -
46:19 - 46:22who have the power to transform policies
-
46:22 - 46:25within their spheres,
within their institutions, -
46:25 - 46:27and so we should be focused there.
-
46:27 - 46:30The last thing I'll say about voting is,
-
46:30 - 46:34I wrote a series of pieces
for "The Atlantic" early this year -
46:34 - 46:39that sought to get Americans
thinking about who I call -
46:39 - 46:41"the other swing voter,"
-
46:41 - 46:46and not the traditional swing voter
who swings from Republican to Democrat -
46:46 - 46:49who are primarily older and white.
-
46:49 - 46:54I'm talking about the people
who swing from voting Democrat -
46:54 - 46:56to not voting at all.
-
46:56 - 46:59And these people are typically younger
-
46:59 - 47:01and they're typically people of color,
-
47:01 - 47:03but they're especially
young people of color, -
47:03 - 47:07especially young black
and Latinx Americans. -
47:07 - 47:10And so we should view these people,
-
47:10 - 47:13these young, black and Latino voters
-
47:13 - 47:18who are trying to decide
whether to vote as swing voters -
47:18 - 47:21in the way we view these people
-
47:21 - 47:25who are trying to decide
between whether to vote for, let's say, -
47:25 - 47:27Trump or Biden in the general election.
-
47:27 - 47:30In other words, to view
them both as swing voters -
47:30 - 47:36is to view them both in a way that,
OK, we need to persuade these people. -
47:36 - 47:37They're not political cattle.
-
47:37 - 47:39We're not just going to turn them out.
-
47:40 - 47:42We need to encourage and persuade them,
-
47:42 - 47:45and then we also
for these other swing voters -
47:45 - 47:48need to make it easier for them to vote,
-
47:48 - 47:52and typically these young people of color,
it's the hardest for them to vote -
47:52 - 47:54because of voter suppression policies.
-
47:58 - 47:59CS: Thank you, Ibram.
-
47:59 - 48:02Well, we're going to come
to a close of this interview, -
48:02 - 48:04but I would love to ask you
-
48:04 - 48:06to read something that you wrote
-
48:06 - 48:08a couple of days ago on Instagram.
-
48:08 - 48:10You wrote this beautiful caption
-
48:10 - 48:12on a photo of your daughter,
-
48:12 - 48:15and I'm wondering if you'd be willing
to share that with us -
48:15 - 48:19and briefly tell us how we could each
take this perspective into our own lives. -
48:21 - 48:23IXK: Sure, so yeah,
-
48:23 - 48:27I posted a picture of
my four-year-old daughter Imani, -
48:27 - 48:29and in the caption I wrote,
-
48:29 - 48:34"I love, and because I love, I resist.
-
48:34 - 48:36There have been many theories
-
48:36 - 48:39on what's fueling the growing
demonstrations against racism -
48:39 - 48:42in public and private.
-
48:42 - 48:45Let me offer another one: love.
-
48:45 - 48:46We love.
-
48:46 - 48:48We know the lives of our loved ones,
-
48:48 - 48:50especially our black loved ones,
-
48:50 - 48:52are in danger
-
48:52 - 48:54under the violence of racism.
-
48:54 - 48:58People ask me all the time what fuels me.
-
48:58 - 49:00It is the same: love,
-
49:00 - 49:02love of this little girl,
-
49:02 - 49:05love of all the little and big people
-
49:05 - 49:07who I want to live full lives
-
49:08 - 49:10in the fullness of their humanity,
-
49:10 - 49:12not barred by racist policies,
-
49:12 - 49:15not degraded by racist ideas,
-
49:15 - 49:17not terrorized by racist violence.
-
49:17 - 49:20Let us be anti-racist.
-
49:20 - 49:22Let us defend life.
-
49:22 - 49:26Let us defend our human rights
to live and live fully, -
49:26 - 49:28because we love."
-
49:29 - 49:33And, you know, Cloe,
I just wanted to sort of emphasize -
49:33 - 49:36that at the heart of being anti-racist
-
49:36 - 49:38is love,
-
49:38 - 49:40is loving one's country,
-
49:40 - 49:43loving one's humanity,
-
49:43 - 49:47loving one's relatives
and family and friends, -
49:47 - 49:50and certainly loving oneself.
-
49:50 - 49:54And I consider love to be a verb.
-
49:54 - 49:57I consider love to be,
-
49:57 - 49:59I'm helping another, and even myself,
-
49:59 - 50:04to constantly grow
into a better form of myself, -
50:04 - 50:08of themselves, that they've expressed
who they want to be. -
50:08 - 50:11And so to love this country
and to love humanity -
50:11 - 50:14is to push humanity constructively
-
50:14 - 50:15to be a better form of itself,
-
50:15 - 50:18and there's no way
we're going to be a better form, -
50:18 - 50:21there's no way we can build
a better humanity, -
50:21 - 50:24while we still have on
the shackles of racism. -
50:26 - 50:29WPR: I think that's so beautiful.
-
50:29 - 50:31I appreciate everything
you've shared, Ibram. -
50:31 - 50:35I feel like it's made it really clear
this is not an easy fix. Right? -
50:35 - 50:38There is no band-aid option here
-
50:38 - 50:42that will make this go away,
that this takes work from all of us, -
50:42 - 50:46and I really appreciate all of the honesty
-
50:46 - 50:48and thoughtfulness
that you've brought to this today. -
50:50 - 50:52IXK: You're welcome.
-
50:52 - 50:54Thank you so much for having
this conversation with me. -
50:56 - 50:57CS: Thank you so much, Ibram.
-
50:57 - 51:00We're really grateful to you
for joining us. -
51:00 - 51:01IXK: Thank you.
- Title:
- The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist
- Speaker:
- Ibram X. Kendi
- Description:
-
There is no such thing as being "not racist," says author and historian Ibram X. Kendi. In this vital conversation, he defines the transformative concept of antiracism to help us more clearly recognize, take responsibility for and reject prejudices in our public policies, workplaces and personal beliefs. Learn how you can actively use this awareness to uproot injustice and inequality in the world -- and replace it with love. (This virtual interview, hosted by TED's current affairs curator Whitney Pennington Rodgers and speaker development curator Cloe Shasha, was recorded June 9, 2020.)
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDTalks
- Duration:
- 51:14
Erin Gregory approved English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist | ||
Erin Gregory edited English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist | ||
Erin Gregory edited English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist | ||
Erin Gregory edited English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist | ||
Erin Gregory edited English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz accepted English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist |