0:00:00.667,0:00:02.226
Cloe Shasha: So welcome, Ibram,

0:00:02.250,0:00:04.125
and thank you so much for joining us.

0:00:07.375,0:00:09.226
Ibram X. Kendi: Well, thank you, Cloe,

0:00:09.250,0:00:10.518
and Whitney,

0:00:10.542,0:00:14.434
and thank you everyone[br]for joining this conversation.

0:00:14.458,0:00:16.476
And so, a few weeks ago,

0:00:16.500,0:00:22.184
on the same day we learned[br]about the brutal murder of George Floyd,

0:00:22.208,0:00:27.643
we also learned that[br]a white woman in Central Park

0:00:27.667,0:00:30.601
who chose not to leash her dog

0:00:30.625,0:00:36.976
and was told by a black man nearby[br]that she needed to leash her dog,

0:00:37.000,0:00:40.768
instead decided[br]to threaten this black male,

0:00:40.792,0:00:43.476
instead decided to call the police

0:00:43.500,0:00:46.768
and claim that her life[br]was being threatened.

0:00:46.792,0:00:50.309
And of course, when we learned[br]about that through a video,

0:00:50.333,0:00:52.601
many Americans were outraged,

0:00:52.625,0:00:55.351
and this woman, Amy Cooper,

0:00:55.375,0:00:58.434
ended up going on national TV

0:00:58.458,0:00:59.768
and saying,

0:00:59.792,0:01:05.684
like countless other Americans have said[br]right after they engaged in a racist act,

0:01:05.708,0:01:07.559
"I am not racist."

0:01:07.583,0:01:09.976
And I say countless Americans,

0:01:10.000,0:01:13.643
because when you really think[br]about the history of Americans

0:01:13.667,0:01:15.934
expressing racist ideas,

0:01:15.958,0:01:18.893
supporting racist policies,

0:01:18.917,0:01:21.518
you're really talking[br]about a history of people

0:01:21.542,0:01:23.476
who have claimed they're not racist,

0:01:23.500,0:01:26.101
because everyone claims[br]that they're not racist,

0:01:26.125,0:01:29.601
whether we're talking[br]about the Amy Coopers of the world,

0:01:29.625,0:01:31.643
whether we're talking about Donald Trump,

0:01:31.667,0:01:35.434
who, right after he said[br]that majority-black Baltimore

0:01:35.458,0:01:39.768
is a rat and rodent-infested mess[br]that no human being would want to live in,

0:01:39.792,0:01:42.309
and he was challenged as being racist,

0:01:42.333,0:01:46.476
he said, "Actually, I'm the least racist[br]person anywhere in the world."

0:01:46.500,0:01:49.351
And so really the heartbeat[br]of racism itself

0:01:49.375,0:01:51.434
has always been denial,

0:01:51.458,0:01:54.143
and the sound of that heartbeat

0:01:54.167,0:01:57.018
has always been, "I'm not racist."

0:01:57.042,0:01:59.768
And so what I'm trying to do with my work

0:01:59.792,0:02:04.309
is to really get Americans[br]to eliminate the concept of "not racist"

0:02:04.333,0:02:05.934
from their vocabulary,

0:02:05.958,0:02:08.976
and realize we're either being racist

0:02:09.000,0:02:10.309
or anti-racist.

0:02:10.333,0:02:15.101
We're either expressing ideas[br]that suggest certain racial groups

0:02:15.125,0:02:17.476
are better or worse than others,

0:02:17.500,0:02:19.851
superior or inferior than others.

0:02:19.875,0:02:21.601
We're either being racist,

0:02:21.625,0:02:23.101
or we're being anti-racist.

0:02:23.125,0:02:29.059
We're expressing notions[br]that the racial groups are equals,

0:02:29.083,0:02:32.309
despite any cultural[br]or even ethnic differences.

0:02:32.333,0:02:34.809
We're either supporting[br]policies that are leading

0:02:34.833,0:02:37.809
to racial inequities and injustice,

0:02:37.833,0:02:41.934
like we saw in Louisville,[br]where Breonna Taylor was murdered,

0:02:41.958,0:02:46.226
or we're supporting policies[br]and pushing policies

0:02:46.250,0:02:50.268
that are leading to justice[br]and equity for all.

0:02:50.292,0:02:53.059
And so I think we should be very clear

0:02:53.083,0:02:56.143
about whether we're[br]expressing racist ideas,

0:02:56.167,0:03:00.059
about whether we're[br]supporting racist policies,

0:03:00.083,0:03:01.934
and admit when we are,

0:03:01.958,0:03:04.101
because to be anti-racist

0:03:04.125,0:03:07.726
is to admit when[br]we expressed a racist idea,

0:03:07.750,0:03:09.768
is to say, "You know what?

0:03:09.792,0:03:12.143
When I was doing that in Central Park,

0:03:12.167,0:03:14.268
I was indeed being racist.

0:03:14.292,0:03:15.684
But I'm going to change.

0:03:15.708,0:03:18.393
I'm going to strive to be anti-racist."

0:03:18.417,0:03:19.934
And to be racist

0:03:19.958,0:03:22.309
is to constantly deny

0:03:22.333,0:03:26.018
the racial inequities[br]that pervade American society,

0:03:26.042,0:03:31.143
to constantly deny the racist ideas[br]that pervade American minds.

0:03:31.167,0:03:35.059
And so I want to built[br]a just and equitable society,

0:03:35.083,0:03:38.143
and the only way we're going[br]to even begin that process

0:03:38.167,0:03:40.684
is if we admit our racism

0:03:40.708,0:03:42.958
and start building an anti-racist world.

0:03:44.250,0:03:45.500
Thank you.

0:03:50.208,0:03:51.792
CS: Thank you so much for that.

0:03:54.042,0:03:56.768
You know, your book,[br]"How to Be an Antiracist,"

0:03:56.792,0:03:59.601
has become a bestseller[br]in light of what's been happening,

0:03:59.625,0:04:02.059
and you've been speaking a bit

0:04:02.083,0:04:05.601
to the ways in which[br]anti-racism and racism

0:04:05.625,0:04:11.559
are the only two polar opposite ways[br]to hold a view on racism.

0:04:11.583,0:04:13.976
I'm curious if you[br]could talk a little bit more

0:04:14.000,0:04:16.684
about what the basic tenets[br]of anti-racism are,

0:04:16.708,0:04:21.833
for people who aren't as familiar with it[br]in terms of how they can be anti-racist.

0:04:22.458,0:04:25.726
IXK: Sure. And so I mentioned in my talk

0:04:25.750,0:04:32.018
that the heartbeat of racism is denial,

0:04:32.042,0:04:36.351
and really the heartbeat[br]of anti-racism is confession,

0:04:36.375,0:04:38.434
is the recognition

0:04:38.458,0:04:40.893
that to grow up in this society

0:04:40.917,0:04:43.893
is to literally at some point in our lives

0:04:43.917,0:04:48.101
probably internalize[br]ideas that are racist,

0:04:48.125,0:04:53.684
ideas that suggest certain racial groups[br]are better or worse than others,

0:04:53.708,0:04:56.268
and because we believe[br]in racial hierarchy,

0:04:56.292,0:04:59.768
because Americans[br]have been systematically taught

0:04:59.792,0:05:02.726
that black people are more dangerous,

0:05:02.750,0:05:05.018
that black people are more criminal-like,

0:05:05.042,0:05:07.559
when we live in a society[br]where black people

0:05:07.583,0:05:11.601
are 40 percent of the national[br]incarcerated population,

0:05:11.625,0:05:13.893
that's going to seem normal to people.

0:05:13.917,0:05:15.809
When we live in a society

0:05:15.833,0:05:17.434
in a city like Minneapolis

0:05:17.458,0:05:20.601
where black people[br]are 20 percent of the population

0:05:20.625,0:05:25.809
but more than 60 percent of the people[br]being subjected to police shootings,

0:05:25.833,0:05:27.351
it's going to seem normal.

0:05:27.375,0:05:29.059
And so to be anti-racist

0:05:29.083,0:05:32.018
is to believe that there's nothing wrong

0:05:32.042,0:05:34.851
or inferior about black people[br]or any other racial group.

0:05:34.875,0:05:36.351
There's nothing dangerous

0:05:36.375,0:05:39.643
about black people[br]or any other racial group.

0:05:39.667,0:05:43.643
And so when we see these[br]racial disparities all around us,

0:05:43.667,0:05:46.184
we see them as abnormal,

0:05:46.208,0:05:51.476
and then we start to figure out, OK,[br]what policies are behind

0:05:51.500,0:05:54.309
so many black people[br]being killed by police?

0:05:54.333,0:05:57.684
What policies are behind[br]so many Latinx people

0:05:57.708,0:06:00.559
being disproportionately[br]infected with COVID?

0:06:00.583,0:06:02.726
How can I be a part of the struggle

0:06:02.750,0:06:06.708
to upend those policies and replace them[br]with more antiracist policies?

0:06:08.958,0:06:11.309
Whitney Pennington Rodgers:[br]And so it sounds like

0:06:11.333,0:06:15.851
you do make that distinction, then,[br]between not racist and anti-racist.

0:06:15.875,0:06:19.309
I guess, could you talk a little bit[br]more about that and break that down?

0:06:19.333,0:06:21.684
What is the difference between the two?

0:06:21.708,0:06:23.934
IXK: In the most simplest way,

0:06:23.958,0:06:28.976
a not racist is a racist who is in denial,

0:06:29.000,0:06:32.309
and an anti-racist is someone

0:06:32.333,0:06:36.476
who is willing to admit the times[br]in which they are being racist,

0:06:36.500,0:06:39.268
and who is willing to recognize

0:06:39.292,0:06:43.809
the inequities and[br]the racial problems of our society,

0:06:43.833,0:06:47.768
and who is willing to challenge[br]those racial inequities

0:06:47.792,0:06:49.768
by challenging policy.

0:06:49.792,0:06:55.393
And so I'm saying this because[br]literally slaveholders, slave traders,

0:06:55.417,0:06:59.851
imagined that their ideas[br]in our terms were not racist.

0:06:59.875,0:07:01.226
They would say things like,

0:07:01.250,0:07:03.684
"Black people are the cursed[br]descendants of Ham,

0:07:03.708,0:07:07.518
and they're cursed forever[br]into enslavement."

0:07:07.542,0:07:09.643
This isn't, "I'm not racist."

0:07:09.667,0:07:11.351
This is, "God's law."

0:07:11.375,0:07:13.226
They would say things, like, you know,

0:07:13.250,0:07:16.018
"Based on science, based on ethnology,

0:07:16.042,0:07:18.184
based on natural history,

0:07:18.208,0:07:20.518
black people by nature

0:07:20.542,0:07:23.518
are predisposed to slavery and servility.

0:07:23.542,0:07:26.393
This is nature's law. I'm not racist.

0:07:26.417,0:07:30.226
I'm actually doing what nature[br]said I'm supposed to be doing."

0:07:30.250,0:07:35.976
And so this construct of being not racist[br]and denying one's racism

0:07:36.000,0:07:38.875
goes all the way back[br]to the origins of this country.

0:07:41.792,0:07:43.143
CS: Yeah.

0:07:43.167,0:07:45.601
And why do you think it has been so hard

0:07:45.625,0:07:49.476
for some people now to still accept[br]that neutrality is not enough

0:07:49.500,0:07:51.042
when it comes to racism?

0:07:52.083,0:07:56.934
IXK: I think because it takes[br]a lot of work to be anti-racist.

0:07:56.958,0:07:58.809
You have to be very vulnerable, right?

0:07:58.833,0:08:03.101
You have to be willing to admit[br]that you were wrong.

0:08:03.125,0:08:04.684
You have to be willing to admit

0:08:04.708,0:08:07.976
that if you have more,[br]if you're white, for instance,

0:08:08.000,0:08:09.476
and you have more,

0:08:09.500,0:08:11.851
it may not be because you are more.

0:08:11.875,0:08:14.726
You have to admit that,[br]yeah, you've worked hard

0:08:14.750,0:08:16.351
potentially, in your life,

0:08:16.375,0:08:18.684
but you've also had certain advantages

0:08:18.708,0:08:21.351
which provided you with opportunities

0:08:21.375,0:08:23.059
that other people did not have.

0:08:23.083,0:08:24.643
You have to admit those things,

0:08:24.667,0:08:26.434
and it's very difficult

0:08:26.458,0:08:28.934
for people to be publicly,

0:08:28.958,0:08:31.684
and even privately, self-critical.

0:08:31.708,0:08:34.018
I think it's also the case of,

0:08:34.042,0:08:36.059
and I should have probably led with this,

0:08:36.083,0:08:38.559
how people define "racist."

0:08:38.583,0:08:41.309
And so people tend to define "racist"

0:08:41.333,0:08:43.643
as, like, a fixed category,

0:08:43.667,0:08:45.476
as an identity.

0:08:45.500,0:08:49.184
This is essential to who a person is.

0:08:49.208,0:08:51.684
Someone becomes a racist.

0:08:51.708,0:08:54.851
And so therefore --

0:08:54.875,0:08:59.393
And then they also connect a racist[br]with a bad, evil person.

0:08:59.417,0:09:03.059
They connect a racist[br]with a Ku Klux Klansman or woman.

0:09:03.083,0:09:05.976
And they're like,[br]"I'm not in the Ku Klux Klan,

0:09:06.000,0:09:08.059
I'm not a bad person

0:09:08.083,0:09:11.101
and I've done good things in my life.

0:09:11.125,0:09:13.559
I've done good things to people of color.

0:09:13.583,0:09:15.684
And so therefore I can't be racist.

0:09:15.708,0:09:17.601
I'm not that. That's not my identity.

0:09:17.625,0:09:20.643
But that's actually not[br]how we should be defining racist.

0:09:20.667,0:09:23.684
Racist is a descriptive term.

0:09:23.708,0:09:28.643
It describes what a person[br]is saying or doing in any given moment,

0:09:28.667,0:09:31.184
and so when a person in one moment

0:09:31.208,0:09:33.559
is expressing a racist idea,

0:09:33.583,0:09:37.518
in that moment they are being racist[br]when they're saying black people are lazy.

0:09:37.542,0:09:38.976
If in the very next moment

0:09:39.000,0:09:42.434
they're appreciating the cultures[br]of native people,

0:09:42.458,0:09:44.083
they're being anti-racist.

0:09:46.875,0:09:49.059
WPR: And we're going to get[br]to some questions

0:09:49.083,0:09:50.643
from our community in a moment,

0:09:50.667,0:09:54.434
but I think when a lot of people hear[br]this idea that you're putting forward,

0:09:54.458,0:09:56.101
this idea of anti-racism,

0:09:56.125,0:09:58.184
there's this feeling[br]that this is something

0:09:58.208,0:10:00.351
that only concerns the white community.

0:10:00.375,0:10:04.393
And so could you speak a little bit[br]to how the black community

0:10:04.417,0:10:08.559
and nonwhite, other ethnic minorities

0:10:08.583,0:10:12.708
can participate in and think about[br]this idea of anti-racism?

0:10:13.417,0:10:14.726
IXK: Sure.

0:10:14.750,0:10:19.226
So if white Americans[br]commonly say, "I'm not racist,"

0:10:19.250,0:10:21.184
people of color commonly say,

0:10:21.208,0:10:22.893
"I can't be racist,

0:10:22.917,0:10:25.184
because I'm a person of color."

0:10:25.208,0:10:32.018
And then some people of color[br]say they can't be racist

0:10:32.042,0:10:34.393
because they have no power.

0:10:34.417,0:10:37.601
And so, first and foremost,

0:10:37.625,0:10:41.809
what I've tried to do in my work[br]is to push back against this idea

0:10:41.833,0:10:44.809
that people of color have no power.

0:10:44.833,0:10:47.184
There's nothing more disempowering

0:10:47.208,0:10:51.476
to say, or to think, as a person of color,

0:10:51.500,0:10:53.309
than to say you have no power.

0:10:53.333,0:10:57.434
People of color have long utilized[br]the most basic power

0:10:57.458,0:10:59.518
that every human being has,

0:10:59.542,0:11:03.851
and that's the power to resist policy --

0:11:03.875,0:11:07.226
that's the power to resist[br]racist policies,

0:11:07.250,0:11:10.018
that's the power to resist[br]a racist society.

0:11:10.042,0:11:12.143
But if you're a person of color,

0:11:12.167,0:11:17.059
and you believe that people coming here

0:11:17.083,0:11:19.684
from Honduras and El Salvador

0:11:19.708,0:11:22.059
are invading this country,

0:11:22.083,0:11:24.601
you believe that these Latinx immigrants

0:11:24.625,0:11:26.559
are animals and rapists,

0:11:26.583,0:11:30.768
then you're certainly not,[br]if you're black or Asian or native,

0:11:30.792,0:11:33.976
going to be a part of the struggle

0:11:34.000,0:11:36.934
to defend Latinx immigrants,

0:11:36.958,0:11:43.559
to recognize that Latinx immigrants[br]have as much to give to this country

0:11:43.583,0:11:45.226
as any other group of people,

0:11:45.250,0:11:49.268
you're going to view these people[br]as "taking away your jobs,"

0:11:49.292,0:11:52.393
and so therefore you're going[br]to support racist rhetoric,

0:11:52.417,0:11:54.893
you're going to support racist policies,

0:11:54.917,0:12:00.518
and even though that is probably[br]going to be harming you,

0:12:00.542,0:12:02.559
in other words, it's going to be harming,

0:12:02.583,0:12:05.809
if you're black, immigrants[br]coming from Haiti and Nigeria,

0:12:05.833,0:12:10.143
if you're Asian,[br]immigrants coming from India.

0:12:10.167,0:12:14.393
So I think it's critically important[br]for even people of color

0:12:14.417,0:12:17.268
to realize they have the power to resist,

0:12:17.292,0:12:23.351
and when people of color[br]view other people of color as the problem,

0:12:23.375,0:12:26.101
they're not going[br]to view racism as the problem.

0:12:26.125,0:12:30.809
And anyone who is not viewing[br]racism as the problem

0:12:30.833,0:12:34.292
is not being anti-racist.

0:12:37.500,0:12:42.059
CS: You touched on this a bit[br]in your beginning talk here,

0:12:42.083,0:12:46.143
but you've talked about how[br]racism is the reason

0:12:46.167,0:12:48.434
that black communities[br]and communities of color

0:12:48.458,0:12:50.934
are systematically[br]disadvantaged in America,

0:12:50.958,0:12:54.768
which has led to so many more deaths[br]from COVID-19 in those communities.

0:12:54.792,0:12:57.893
And yet the media is often[br]placing the blame on people of color

0:12:57.917,0:13:01.226
for their vulnerability to illness.

0:13:01.250,0:13:03.809
So I'm curious, in line with that,

0:13:03.833,0:13:06.684
what is the relationship[br]between anti-racism

0:13:06.708,0:13:09.042
and the potential for systemic change?

0:13:11.458,0:13:14.684
IXK: I think it's a direct relationship,

0:13:14.708,0:13:17.000
because when you are --

0:13:18.917,0:13:22.601
when you believe[br]and have consumed racist ideas,

0:13:22.625,0:13:25.851
you're not going to even believe[br]change is necessary

0:13:25.875,0:13:29.893
because you're going to believe[br]that racial inequality is normal.

0:13:29.917,0:13:32.559
Or, you're not going[br]to believe change is possible.

0:13:32.583,0:13:37.351
In other words, you're going to believe[br]that the reason why black people

0:13:37.375,0:13:41.018
are being killed by police[br]at such high rates

0:13:41.042,0:13:45.934
or the reason why Latinx people[br]are being infected at such high rates

0:13:45.958,0:13:48.143
is because there's[br]something wrong with them,

0:13:48.167,0:13:49.518
and nothing can be changed.

0:13:49.542,0:13:53.601
And so you wouldn't even[br]begin to even see the need

0:13:53.625,0:13:56.184
for systemic structural change,

0:13:56.208,0:14:00.393
let alone be a part of the struggle[br]for systemic structural change.

0:14:00.417,0:14:03.684
And so, to be anti-racist, again,

0:14:03.708,0:14:06.018
is to recognize

0:14:06.042,0:14:10.101
that there's only two causes[br]of racial inequity:

0:14:10.125,0:14:13.184
either there's something[br]wrong with people,

0:14:13.208,0:14:15.893
or there's something wrong[br]with power and policy.

0:14:15.917,0:14:20.143
And if you realize that there's[br]nothing wrong with any group of people,

0:14:20.167,0:14:22.893
and I keep mentioning groups --

0:14:22.917,0:14:24.476
I'm not saying individuals.

0:14:24.500,0:14:26.809
There's certainly black individuals

0:14:26.833,0:14:29.643
who didn't take coronavirus seriously,

0:14:29.667,0:14:32.143
which is one of the reasons[br]why they were infected.

0:14:32.167,0:14:35.226
But there are white people[br]who didn't take coronavirus seriously.

0:14:35.250,0:14:38.018
No one has ever proven,[br]actually studies have shown

0:14:38.042,0:14:42.351
that black people were more likely[br]to take the coronavirus seriously

0:14:42.375,0:14:43.684
than white people.

0:14:43.708,0:14:45.726
We're not talking about individuals here,

0:14:45.750,0:14:49.268
and we certainly should not[br]be individualizing groups.

0:14:49.292,0:14:52.601
We certainly should not be looking[br]at the individual behavior

0:14:52.625,0:14:56.309
of one Latinx person or one black person,

0:14:56.333,0:14:58.643
and saying they're[br]representatives of the group.

0:14:58.667,0:15:00.851
That's a racist idea in and of itself.

0:15:00.875,0:15:02.476
And so I'm talking about groups,

0:15:02.500,0:15:05.351
and if you believe that groups are equals,

0:15:05.375,0:15:06.976
then the only other alternative,

0:15:07.000,0:15:12.476
the only other explanation[br]to persisting inequity and injustice,

0:15:12.500,0:15:13.851
is power and policy.

0:15:13.875,0:15:20.226
And to then spend your time transforming[br]and challenging power and policy

0:15:20.250,0:15:22.875
is to spend your time being anti-racist.

0:15:25.625,0:15:29.476
WPR: So we have some questions[br]that are coming in from the audience.

0:15:29.500,0:15:32.184
First one here is from a community member

0:15:32.208,0:15:35.018
that asks, "When we talk[br]about white privilege,

0:15:35.042,0:15:38.476
we talk also about the privilege[br]not to have the difficult conversations.

0:15:38.500,0:15:40.875
Do you feel that's starting to change?"

0:15:43.083,0:15:45.559
IXK: I hope so,

0:15:45.583,0:15:47.976
because I think

0:15:48.000,0:15:53.059
that white Americans, too,

0:15:53.083,0:15:57.018
need to simultaneously recognize

0:15:57.042,0:15:58.518
their privileges,

0:15:58.542,0:16:02.268
the privileges that they have accrued

0:16:02.292,0:16:04.934
as a result of their whiteness,

0:16:04.958,0:16:08.059
and the only way in which[br]they're going to be able to do that

0:16:08.083,0:16:11.393
is by initiating and having[br]these conversations.

0:16:11.417,0:16:13.393
But then they also should recognize

0:16:13.417,0:16:15.643
that, yes, they have more,

0:16:15.667,0:16:17.976
white Americans have more,

0:16:18.000,0:16:20.393
due to racist policy,

0:16:20.417,0:16:23.226
but the question I think[br]white Americans should be having,

0:16:23.250,0:16:27.143
particularly when they're having[br]these conversations among themselves,

0:16:27.167,0:16:33.184
is, if we had a more equitable society,

0:16:33.208,0:16:34.851
would we have more?

0:16:34.875,0:16:37.559
Because what I'm asking is that, you know,

0:16:37.583,0:16:41.059
white Americans have more[br]because of racism,

0:16:41.083,0:16:45.476
but there are other groups of people[br]in other Western democracies

0:16:45.500,0:16:47.476
who have more than white Americans,

0:16:47.500,0:16:49.434
and then you start to ask the question,

0:16:49.458,0:16:53.309
why is it that people in other countries[br]have free health care?

0:16:53.333,0:16:55.934
Why is it that they[br]have paid family leave?

0:16:55.958,0:16:59.059
Why is it that they have[br]a massive safety net?

0:16:59.083,0:17:01.268
Why is it that we do not?

0:17:01.292,0:17:04.601
And one of the major answers

0:17:04.625,0:17:09.143
to why we do not here have is racism.

0:17:09.167,0:17:11.684
One of the major answers as to why

0:17:11.708,0:17:14.434
Donald Trump is President[br]of the United States

0:17:14.458,0:17:15.768
is racism.

0:17:15.792,0:17:21.934
And so I'm not really asking[br]white Americans to be altruistic

0:17:21.958,0:17:23.434
in order to be anti-racist.

0:17:23.458,0:17:25.726
We're really asking people

0:17:25.750,0:17:28.184
to have intelligent self-interest.

0:17:28.208,0:17:34.226
Those four million, I should say[br]five million poor whites in 1860

0:17:34.250,0:17:37.893
whose poverty was the direct result

0:17:37.917,0:17:42.101
of the riches of a few thousand[br]white slaveholding families,

0:17:42.125,0:17:43.934
in order to challenge slavery,

0:17:43.958,0:17:46.768
we weren't saying, you know,[br]we need you to be altruistic.

0:17:46.792,0:17:50.893
No, we actually need you[br]to do what's in your self-interest.

0:17:50.917,0:17:56.226
Those tens of millions of Americans,[br]white Americans, who have lost their jobs

0:17:56.250,0:17:58.434
as a result of this pandemic,

0:17:58.458,0:18:01.393
we're not asking them to be altruistic.

0:18:01.417,0:18:05.351
We're asking them to realize that[br]if we had a different type of government

0:18:05.375,0:18:07.476
with a different set of priorities,

0:18:07.500,0:18:10.167
then they would be[br]much better off right now.

0:18:13.500,0:18:16.518
I'm sorry, don't get me started.

0:18:16.542,0:18:18.917
CS: No, we're grateful to you. Thank you.

0:18:20.375,0:18:22.083
And in line with that,

0:18:23.125,0:18:26.934
obviously these protests and this movement[br]have led to some progress:

0:18:26.958,0:18:30.101
the removal of Confederate monuments,

0:18:30.125,0:18:34.434
the Minneapolis City Council pledging[br]to dismantle the police department, etc.

0:18:34.458,0:18:38.226
But what do you view[br]as the greatest priority on a policy level

0:18:38.250,0:18:40.184
as this fight for justice continues?

0:18:40.208,0:18:44.125
Are there any ways in which[br]we could learn from other countries?

0:18:46.042,0:18:50.143
IXK: I don't actually think necessarily

0:18:50.167,0:18:55.125
there's a singular policy priority.

0:18:56.458,0:19:00.434
I mean, if someone was[br]to force me to answer,

0:19:00.458,0:19:02.851
I would probably say two,

0:19:02.875,0:19:04.893
and that is,

0:19:04.917,0:19:08.226
high quality free health care for all,

0:19:08.250,0:19:10.518
and when I say high quality,

0:19:10.542,0:19:14.684
I'm not just talking about[br]Medicare For All,

0:19:14.708,0:19:17.184
I'm talking about a simultaneous scenario

0:19:17.208,0:19:21.518
in which in rural southwest Georgia,

0:19:21.542,0:19:25.809
where the people are predominantly black

0:19:25.833,0:19:28.768
and have some of the highest[br]death rates in the country,

0:19:28.792,0:19:30.643
those counties in southwest Georgia,

0:19:30.667,0:19:31.976
from COVID,

0:19:32.000,0:19:35.143
that they would have access to health care

0:19:35.167,0:19:39.851
as high quality as people do[br]in Atlanta and New York City,

0:19:39.875,0:19:41.726
and then, simultaneously,

0:19:41.750,0:19:45.726
that that health care would be free.

0:19:45.750,0:19:50.476
So many Americans not only of course[br]are dying this year of COVID

0:19:50.500,0:19:53.351
but also of heart disease and cancer,

0:19:53.375,0:19:56.934
which are the number one killers[br]before COVID of Americans,

0:19:56.958,0:19:59.976
and they're disproportionately black.

0:20:00.000,0:20:01.393
And so I would say that,

0:20:01.417,0:20:05.226
and then secondarily,[br]I would say reparations.

0:20:05.250,0:20:08.167
And many Americans claim

0:20:09.250,0:20:12.851
that they believe in racial equality,

0:20:12.875,0:20:15.934
they want to bring about racial equality.

0:20:15.958,0:20:22.643
Many Americans recognize[br]just how critical economic livelihood is

0:20:22.667,0:20:27.351
for every person in this country,[br]in this economic system.

0:20:27.375,0:20:33.018
But then many Americans reject[br]or are not supportive of reparations.

0:20:33.042,0:20:35.601
And so we have a situation

0:20:35.625,0:20:38.018
in which white Americans

0:20:38.042,0:20:39.684
are, last I checked,

0:20:39.708,0:20:44.143
their median wealth is 10 times[br]the median wealth of black Americans,

0:20:44.167,0:20:46.893
and according to a recent study,

0:20:46.917,0:20:48.750
by 2053 --

0:20:50.125,0:20:53.601
between now, I should say, and 2053,

0:20:53.625,0:20:56.101
white median wealth is projected to grow,

0:20:56.125,0:20:59.851
and this was before[br]this current recession,

0:20:59.875,0:21:03.809
and black median wealth

0:21:03.833,0:21:07.018
is expected to redline at zero dollars,

0:21:07.042,0:21:11.351
and that, based on this current recession,[br]that may be pushed up a decade.

0:21:11.375,0:21:14.309
And so we not only have[br]a racial wealth gap,

0:21:14.333,0:21:17.018
but we have a racial wealth gap[br]that's growing.

0:21:17.042,0:21:20.018
And so for those Americans who claim

0:21:20.042,0:21:23.059
they are committed to racial equality

0:21:23.083,0:21:27.184
who also recognize the importance[br]of economic livelihood

0:21:27.208,0:21:31.809
and who also know[br]that wealth is inherited,

0:21:31.833,0:21:34.559
and the majority of wealth is inherited,

0:21:34.583,0:21:37.559
and when you think of the inheritance,

0:21:37.583,0:21:39.351
you're thinking of past,

0:21:39.375,0:21:41.018
and the past policies

0:21:41.042,0:21:43.809
that many Americans consider to be racist,

0:21:43.833,0:21:46.809
whether it's slavery or even redlining,

0:21:46.833,0:21:49.893
how would we even begin to close

0:21:49.917,0:21:52.184
this growing racial wealth gap

0:21:52.208,0:21:55.625
without a massive program[br]like reparations?

0:21:58.000,0:22:01.851
WPR: Well, sort of connected to this idea[br]of thinking about wealth disparity

0:22:01.875,0:22:03.768
and wealth inequality in this country,

0:22:03.792,0:22:06.643
we have a question[br]from community member Dana Perls.

0:22:06.667,0:22:09.393
She asks, "How do you suggest[br]liberal white organizations

0:22:09.417,0:22:12.893
effectively address problems of racism[br]within the work environment,

0:22:12.917,0:22:16.559
particularly in environments where people[br]remain silent in the face of racism

0:22:16.583,0:22:19.292
or make token statements[br]without looking internally?"

0:22:21.000,0:22:22.268
IXK: Sure.

0:22:22.292,0:22:24.434
And so I would make a few suggestions.

0:22:24.458,0:22:28.518
One, for several decades now,

0:22:28.542,0:22:35.101
every workplace has publicly pledged

0:22:35.125,0:22:37.059
a commitment to diversity.

0:22:37.083,0:22:39.768
Typically, they have diversity statements.

0:22:39.792,0:22:42.768
I would basically rip up[br]those diversity statements

0:22:42.792,0:22:44.101
and write a new statement,

0:22:44.125,0:22:47.809
and that's a statement[br]committed to anti-racism.

0:22:47.833,0:22:53.726
And in that statement you would[br]clearly define what a racist idea is,

0:22:53.750,0:22:56.101
what an anti-racist idea is,

0:22:56.125,0:23:00.309
what a racist policy is[br]and what an anti-racist policy is.

0:23:00.333,0:23:04.018
And you would state as a workplace[br]that you're committed

0:23:04.042,0:23:08.726
to having a culture of anti-racist ideas

0:23:08.750,0:23:15.393
and having an institution[br]made up of anti-racist policies.

0:23:15.417,0:23:18.684
And so then everybody[br]can measure everyone's ideas

0:23:18.708,0:23:23.976
and the policies of that workplace[br]based on that document.

0:23:24.000,0:23:28.893
And I think that that could begin[br]the process of transformation.

0:23:28.917,0:23:32.184
I also think it's critically important

0:23:32.208,0:23:39.059
for workplaces to not only[br]diversify their staff

0:23:39.083,0:23:42.375
but diversify their upper administration.

0:23:43.542,0:23:46.917
And I think that's[br]absolutely critical as well.

0:23:50.167,0:23:53.059
CS: We have some more questions[br]coming in from the audience.

0:23:53.083,0:23:57.226
We have one from Melissa Mahoney,

0:23:57.250,0:24:02.351
who is asking, "Donald Trump seems[br]to be making supporting Black Lives Matter

0:24:02.375,0:24:03.684
a partisan issue,

0:24:03.708,0:24:05.559
for example making fun of Mitt Romney

0:24:05.583,0:24:08.226
for participating in a peaceful protest.

0:24:08.250,0:24:10.708
How do we uncouple this[br]to make it nonpartisan?"

0:24:14.292,0:24:20.351
IXK: Well, I mean, I think that[br]to say the lives of black people

0:24:20.375,0:24:23.226
is a Democratic declaration

0:24:23.250,0:24:25.893
is simultaneously stating

0:24:25.917,0:24:30.309
that Republicans do not value black life.

0:24:30.333,0:24:34.726
If that's essentially[br]what Donald Trump is saying,

0:24:34.750,0:24:37.059
if he's stating

0:24:37.083,0:24:42.518
that there's a problem[br]with marching for black lives,

0:24:42.542,0:24:44.018
then what is the solution?

0:24:44.042,0:24:47.559
The solution is not marching.[br]What's the other alternative?

0:24:47.583,0:24:50.309
The other alternative[br]is not marching for black lives.

0:24:50.333,0:24:54.476
The other alternative is not caring[br]when black people die of police violence

0:24:54.500,0:24:55.809
or COVID.

0:24:55.833,0:25:02.726
And so to me, the way in which[br]we make this a nonpartisan issue

0:25:02.750,0:25:04.351
is to strike back

0:25:04.375,0:25:06.309
or argue back in that way,

0:25:06.333,0:25:09.059
and obviously Republicans[br]are going to claim

0:25:09.083,0:25:10.768
they're not saying that,

0:25:10.792,0:25:12.351
but it's a very simple thing:

0:25:12.375,0:25:14.476
either you believe black lives matter

0:25:14.500,0:25:15.809
or you don't,

0:25:15.833,0:25:17.684
and if you believe black lives matter

0:25:17.708,0:25:20.434
because you believe in human rights,

0:25:20.458,0:25:25.393
then you believe in the human right[br]for black people and all people to live

0:25:25.417,0:25:28.768
and to not have to fear police violence

0:25:28.792,0:25:31.934
and not have to fear the state

0:25:31.958,0:25:34.768
and not have to fear[br]that a peaceful protest

0:25:34.792,0:25:36.101
is going to be broken up

0:25:36.125,0:25:39.476
because some politician[br]wants to get a campaign op,

0:25:39.500,0:25:42.934
then you're going to institute[br]policy that shows it.

0:25:42.958,0:25:44.417
Or, you're not.

0:25:47.250,0:25:49.351
WPR: So I want to ask a question

0:25:49.375,0:25:52.393
just about how people[br]can think about anti-racism

0:25:52.417,0:25:55.893
and how they can actually[br]bring this into their lives.

0:25:55.917,0:25:58.393
I imagine that a lot of folks,

0:25:58.417,0:25:59.976
they hear this and they're like,

0:26:00.000,0:26:02.184
oh, you know,[br]I have to be really thoughtful

0:26:02.208,0:26:05.684
about how my actions and my words

0:26:05.708,0:26:06.976
are perceived.

0:26:07.000,0:26:10.226
What is the perceived intention[br]behind what it is that I'm saying,

0:26:10.250,0:26:12.726
and that that may feel exhausting,

0:26:12.750,0:26:15.434
and I think that connects[br]even to this idea of policy.

0:26:15.458,0:26:16.851
And so I'm curious.

0:26:16.875,0:26:18.976
There is a huge element of thoughtfulness

0:26:19.000,0:26:20.309
that comes along

0:26:20.333,0:26:22.351
with this work of being anti-racist.

0:26:22.375,0:26:27.309
And what is your reaction and response[br]to those who feel concerned

0:26:27.333,0:26:32.226
about the mental exhaustion[br]from having to constantly think

0:26:32.250,0:26:35.875
about how your actions[br]may hurt or harm others?

0:26:38.083,0:26:45.184
IXK: So I think part of the concern[br]that people have about mental exhaustion

0:26:45.208,0:26:47.768
is this idea

0:26:47.792,0:26:51.143
that they don't ever[br]want to make a mistake,

0:26:51.167,0:26:56.851
and I think to be anti-racist

0:26:56.875,0:26:58.976
is to make mistakes,

0:26:59.000,0:27:04.226
and is to recognize[br]when we make a mistake.

0:27:04.250,0:27:08.726
For us, what's critical[br]is to have those very clear definitions

0:27:08.750,0:27:12.684
so that we can assess our words,

0:27:12.708,0:27:14.643
we can assess our deeds,

0:27:14.667,0:27:17.393
and when we make a mistake,[br]we just own up to it and say,

0:27:17.417,0:27:19.893
"You know what, that was a racist idea."

0:27:19.917,0:27:24.101
"You know what, I was supporting[br]a racist policy, but I'm going to change."

0:27:24.125,0:27:29.018
The other thing I think[br]is important for us to realize

0:27:29.042,0:27:32.351
is in many ways

0:27:32.375,0:27:34.309
we are addicted,

0:27:34.333,0:27:38.518
and when I say we, individuals[br]and certainly this country,

0:27:38.542,0:27:41.393
is addicted to racism,

0:27:41.417,0:27:44.893
and that's one of the reasons why

0:27:44.917,0:27:47.684
for so many people they're just in denial.

0:27:47.708,0:27:51.851
People usually deny their addictions.

0:27:51.875,0:27:55.750
But then, once we realize[br]that we have this addiction,

0:27:57.208,0:27:59.309
everyone who has been addicted,

0:27:59.333,0:28:01.809
you know, you talk[br]to friends and family members

0:28:01.833,0:28:05.518
who are overcoming an addiction[br]to substance abuse,

0:28:05.542,0:28:07.268
they're not going to say

0:28:07.292,0:28:09.684
that they're just healed,

0:28:09.708,0:28:13.684
that they don't have[br]to think about this regularly.

0:28:13.708,0:28:17.143
You know, someone who is[br]overcoming alcoholism

0:28:17.167,0:28:21.351
is going to say, "You know what,[br]this is a day-by-day process,

0:28:21.375,0:28:24.643
and I take it day by day

0:28:24.667,0:28:26.559
and moment by moment,

0:28:26.583,0:28:30.476
and yes, it's difficult

0:28:30.500,0:28:34.476
to restrain myself

0:28:34.500,0:28:37.643
from reverting back[br]to what I'm addicted to,

0:28:37.667,0:28:39.601
but at the same time it's liberating,

0:28:39.625,0:28:41.768
it's freeing,

0:28:41.792,0:28:45.184
because I'm no longer[br]having to wallow in that addiction.

0:28:45.208,0:28:49.393
And so I think, and I'm no longer[br]having to hurt people

0:28:49.417,0:28:50.726
due to my addiction."

0:28:50.750,0:28:52.184
And I think that's critical.

0:28:52.208,0:28:57.268
We spend too much time[br]thinking about how we feel

0:28:57.292,0:29:01.893
and less time thinking about how[br]our actions and ideas make others feel.

0:29:01.917,0:29:05.059
And I think that's one thing[br]that the George Floyd video

0:29:05.083,0:29:07.143
forced Americans to do

0:29:07.167,0:29:10.976
was to really see and hear, especially,

0:29:11.000,0:29:13.184
how someone feels

0:29:13.208,0:29:14.958
as a result of their racism.

0:29:19.958,0:29:23.226
CS: We have another question[br]from the audience.

0:29:23.250,0:29:25.643
This one is asking about,

0:29:25.667,0:29:27.643
"Can you speak to the intersectionality

0:29:27.667,0:29:31.476
between the work of anti-racism,[br]feminism and gay rights?

0:29:31.500,0:29:34.351
How does the work of anti-racism[br]relate and affect the work

0:29:34.375,0:29:36.292
of these other human rights issues?"

0:29:38.125,0:29:39.434
IXK: Sure.

0:29:39.458,0:29:43.809
So I define a racist idea

0:29:43.833,0:29:49.184
as any idea that suggests[br]a racial group is superior

0:29:49.208,0:29:52.309
or inferior to another[br]racial group in any way.

0:29:52.333,0:29:55.184
And I use the term racial group

0:29:55.208,0:29:57.309
as opposed to race

0:29:57.333,0:30:04.059
because every race is a collection[br]of racialized intersectional groups,

0:30:04.083,0:30:07.309
and so you have black women and black men

0:30:07.333,0:30:12.309
and you have black heterosexuals[br]and black queer people,

0:30:12.333,0:30:18.143
just as you have Latinx women[br]and white women and Asian men,

0:30:18.167,0:30:21.351
and what's critical for us to understand

0:30:21.375,0:30:25.143
is there hasn't just been racist ideas

0:30:25.167,0:30:28.268
that have targeted,[br]let's say, black people.

0:30:28.292,0:30:30.768
There has been racist ideas[br]that have been developed

0:30:30.792,0:30:32.934
and have targeted black women,

0:30:32.958,0:30:35.018
that have targeted black lesbians,

0:30:35.042,0:30:37.976
that have targeted[br]black transgender women.

0:30:38.000,0:30:44.018
And oftentimes these racist ideas[br]targeting these intersectional groups

0:30:44.042,0:30:46.809
are intersecting[br]with other forms of bigotry

0:30:46.833,0:30:49.018
that is also targeting these groups.

0:30:49.042,0:30:51.934
To give an example about black women,

0:30:51.958,0:30:56.226
one of the oldest racist ideas[br]about black women

0:30:56.250,0:30:58.851
was this idea that they're inferior women

0:30:58.875,0:31:01.559
or that they're not even women at all,

0:31:01.583,0:31:04.351
and that they're inferior to white women,

0:31:04.375,0:31:06.958
who are the pinnacle of womanhood.

0:31:08.167,0:31:11.143
And that idea has intersected

0:31:11.167,0:31:13.768
with this sexist idea

0:31:13.792,0:31:16.351
that suggests that women are weak,

0:31:16.375,0:31:21.476
that the more weak a person is,[br]a woman is, the more woman she is,

0:31:21.500,0:31:27.101
and the stronger a woman is,[br]the more masculine she is.

0:31:27.125,0:31:30.184
These two ideas have intersected

0:31:30.208,0:31:35.184
to constantly degrade black women

0:31:35.208,0:31:40.893
as this idea of the strong,[br]black masculine woman

0:31:40.917,0:31:45.851
who is inferior to the weak, white woman.

0:31:45.875,0:31:48.934
And so the only way[br]to really understand these constructs

0:31:48.958,0:31:52.518
of a weak, superfeminine white woman

0:31:52.542,0:31:55.393
and a strong, hypermasculine black woman

0:31:55.417,0:31:58.101
is to understand sexist ideas,

0:31:58.125,0:32:01.101
is to reject sexist ideas,

0:32:01.125,0:32:04.726
and I'll say very quickly,[br]the same goes for the intersection

0:32:04.750,0:32:06.809
of racism and homophobia,

0:32:06.833,0:32:10.768
in which black queer people[br]have been subjected to this idea

0:32:10.792,0:32:13.351
that they are more hypersexual

0:32:13.375,0:32:16.143
because there's this idea of queer people

0:32:16.167,0:32:19.351
as being more hypersexual[br]than heterosexuals.

0:32:19.375,0:32:21.768
And so black queer people have been tagged

0:32:21.792,0:32:25.809
as more hypersexual[br]than white queer people

0:32:25.833,0:32:27.934
and black heterosexuals.

0:32:27.958,0:32:32.143
And you can't really see that[br]and understand that and reject that

0:32:32.167,0:32:36.042
if you're not rejecting and understanding[br]and challenging homophobia too.

0:32:38.542,0:32:40.476
WPR: And to this point of challenging,

0:32:40.500,0:32:43.851
we have another question[br]from Maryam Mohit in our community,

0:32:43.875,0:32:47.684
who asks, "How do you see cancel culture[br]and anti-racism interacting.

0:32:47.708,0:32:51.143
For example, when someone[br]did something obviously racist in the past

0:32:51.167,0:32:52.458
and it comes to light?"

0:32:54.250,0:32:55.559
How do we respond to that?

0:32:55.583,0:32:56.893
IXK: Wow.

0:32:56.917,0:32:59.125
So I think it's very, very complex.

0:33:00.375,0:33:05.893
I do obviously encourage people

0:33:05.917,0:33:07.309
to transform themselves,

0:33:07.333,0:33:12.809
to change, to admit those times[br]in which they were being racist,

0:33:12.833,0:33:16.518
and so obviously we as a community

0:33:16.542,0:33:19.434
have to give people[br]that ability to do that.

0:33:19.458,0:33:25.434
We can't, when someone admits[br]that they were being racist,

0:33:25.458,0:33:28.601
we can't immediately[br]obviously cancel them.

0:33:28.625,0:33:31.143
But I also think

0:33:31.167,0:33:33.976
that there are people

0:33:34.000,0:33:37.393
who do something so egregious

0:33:37.417,0:33:41.976
and there are people who are so unwilling

0:33:42.000,0:33:47.809
to recognize how egregious[br]what they just did is,

0:33:47.833,0:33:49.143
so in a particular moment,

0:33:49.167,0:33:53.726
so not just the horrible, vicious act,

0:33:53.750,0:33:55.518
but then on top of that

0:33:55.542,0:34:00.976
the refusal to even admit[br]the horrible, vicious act.

0:34:01.000,0:34:07.059
In that case, I could see how people[br]would literally want to cancel them,

0:34:07.083,0:34:12.393
and I think that we have to,

0:34:12.417,0:34:13.809
on the other hand,

0:34:13.833,0:34:17.059
we have to have some sort of consequence,

0:34:17.083,0:34:20.476
public consequence, cultural consequence,

0:34:20.500,0:34:22.809
for people acting in a racist manner,

0:34:22.833,0:34:25.768
especially in an extremely egregious way.

0:34:25.792,0:34:27.643
And for many people, they've decided,

0:34:27.667,0:34:29.893
you know what, I'm just[br]going to cancel folks.

0:34:29.917,0:34:32.143
And I'm not going[br]to necessarily critique them,

0:34:32.167,0:34:34.476
but I do think we should try[br]to figure out a way

0:34:34.500,0:34:40.393
to discern those who are refusing

0:34:40.417,0:34:42.309
to transform themselves

0:34:42.333,0:34:45.809
and those who made a mistake[br]and recognized it

0:34:45.833,0:34:48.500
and truly are committed[br]to transforming themselves.

0:34:52.625,0:34:53.893
CS: Yeah, I mean,

0:34:53.917,0:34:56.768
one of the concerns[br]many activists have been expressing

0:34:56.792,0:34:59.809
is that the energy behind[br]the Black Lives Matter movement

0:34:59.833,0:35:01.143
has to stay high

0:35:01.167,0:35:03.226
for anti-racist change[br]to truly take place.

0:35:03.250,0:35:06.167
I think that applies[br]to what you just said as well.

0:35:07.167,0:35:09.809
And I guess I'm curious[br]what your opinion is

0:35:09.833,0:35:12.143
on when the protests start to wane

0:35:12.167,0:35:16.351
and people's donation-matching campaigns[br]fade into the background,

0:35:16.375,0:35:18.518
how can we all ensure[br]that this conversation

0:35:18.542,0:35:20.417
about anti-racism stays central?

0:35:23.000,0:35:24.250
IXK: Sure.

0:35:25.708,0:35:27.476
So in "How to Be an Antiracist,"

0:35:27.500,0:35:29.601
in one of the final chapters,

0:35:29.625,0:35:32.726
is this chapter called "Failure."

0:35:32.750,0:35:36.851
I talked about what I call[br]feelings advocacy,

0:35:36.875,0:35:43.684
and this is people feeling bad[br]about what's happening,

0:35:43.708,0:35:45.434
what happened to George Floyd

0:35:45.458,0:35:50.101
or what happened to Ahmaud Arbery[br]or what happened to Breonna Taylor.

0:35:50.125,0:35:55.684
They just feel bad about this country[br]and where this country is headed.

0:35:55.708,0:35:59.601
And so the way[br]they go about feeling better

0:35:59.625,0:36:03.268
is by coming to a demonstration.

0:36:03.292,0:36:05.809
The way they go about feeling better

0:36:05.833,0:36:08.851
is by donating[br]to a particular organization.

0:36:08.875,0:36:11.268
The way they go about feeling better

0:36:11.292,0:36:12.726
is reading a book.

0:36:12.750,0:36:17.625
And so if this is what[br]many Americans are doing,

0:36:18.708,0:36:21.018
then once they feel better,

0:36:21.042,0:36:25.643
in other words once the individual[br]feels better through their participation

0:36:25.667,0:36:30.143
in book clubs or demonstrations

0:36:30.167,0:36:32.559
or donation campaigns,

0:36:32.583,0:36:36.601
then nothing is going to change[br]except, what, their own feelings.

0:36:36.625,0:36:40.101
And so we need to move past our feelings.

0:36:40.125,0:36:43.809
And this isn't to say[br]that people shouldn't feel bad,

0:36:43.833,0:36:46.893
but we should use our feelings,

0:36:46.917,0:36:51.518
how horrible we feel[br]about what is going on,

0:36:51.542,0:36:55.768
to put into place, put into practice,

0:36:55.792,0:36:59.809
anti-racist power and policies.

0:36:59.833,0:37:03.351
In other words, our feelings[br]should be driving us.

0:37:03.375,0:37:05.434
They shouldn't be the end all.

0:37:05.458,0:37:08.351
This should not be[br]about making us feel better.

0:37:08.375,0:37:11.434
This should be about[br]transforming this country,

0:37:11.458,0:37:15.393
and we need to keep our eyes[br]on transforming this country,

0:37:15.417,0:37:17.184
because if we don't,

0:37:17.208,0:37:20.309
then once people feel better[br]after this is all over,

0:37:20.333,0:37:25.726
then we'll be back to the same situation[br]of being horrified by another video,

0:37:25.750,0:37:27.434
and then feeling bad,

0:37:27.458,0:37:29.333
and then the cycle will only continue.

0:37:32.042,0:37:34.101
WPR: You know, I think when we think about

0:37:34.125,0:37:35.976
what sort of changes we can implement

0:37:36.000,0:37:38.643
and how we could[br]make the system work better,

0:37:38.667,0:37:40.309
make our governments work better,

0:37:40.333,0:37:43.434
make our police work better,

0:37:43.458,0:37:46.309
are there models in other countries

0:37:46.333,0:37:49.524
where -- obviously the history[br]in the United States is really unique

0:37:49.548,0:37:52.934
in terms of thinking[br]about race and oppression.

0:37:52.958,0:37:56.643
But when you look to other nations[br]and other cultures,

0:37:56.667,0:37:59.393
are there other models[br]that you look at as examples

0:37:59.417,0:38:01.833
that we could potentially implement here?

0:38:05.708,0:38:07.250
IXK: I mean, there are so many.

0:38:08.583,0:38:13.042
There are countries in which[br]police officers don't wear weapons.

0:38:14.542,0:38:17.143
There are countries

0:38:17.167,0:38:22.643
who have more people[br]than the United States

0:38:22.667,0:38:25.434
but less prisoners.

0:38:25.458,0:38:26.768
There are countries

0:38:26.792,0:38:30.309
who try to fight violent crime

0:38:30.333,0:38:32.684
not with more police and prisons

0:38:32.708,0:38:35.893
but with more jobs and more opportunities,

0:38:35.917,0:38:38.976
because they know and see[br]that the communities

0:38:39.000,0:38:42.393
with the highest levels of violent crime

0:38:42.417,0:38:45.768
tend to be communities[br]with high levels of poverty

0:38:45.792,0:38:48.250
and long-term unemployment.

0:38:49.417,0:38:51.018
I think that --

0:38:51.042,0:38:52.434
And then, obviously,

0:38:52.458,0:38:58.559
other countries provide pretty sizable[br]social safety nets for people

0:38:58.583,0:39:02.684
such that people are not[br]committing crimes out of poverty,

0:39:02.708,0:39:06.292
such that people are not[br]committing crimes out of despair.

0:39:07.458,0:39:11.809
And so I think that[br]it's critically important for us

0:39:11.833,0:39:13.893
to first and foremost

0:39:13.917,0:39:16.750
think through, OK, if there's[br]nothing wrong with the people,

0:39:18.167,0:39:22.143
then how can we go about[br]reducing police violence?

0:39:22.167,0:39:26.934
How can we go about[br]reducing racial health inequities?

0:39:26.958,0:39:30.893
What policies can we change?[br]What policies have worked?

0:39:30.917,0:39:34.059
These are the types of questions[br]we need to be asking,

0:39:34.083,0:39:37.292
because there's never really[br]been anything wrong with the people.

0:39:40.292,0:39:42.101
CS: In your "Atlantic" piece

0:39:42.125,0:39:44.893
called "Who Gets To Be[br]Afraid in America," you wrote,

0:39:44.917,0:39:47.893
"What I am, a black male,[br]should not matter.

0:39:47.917,0:39:49.226
Who I am should matter."

0:39:49.250,0:39:51.934
And I feel that's kind of[br]what you're saying,

0:39:51.958,0:39:54.726
that in other places[br]maybe that's more possible,

0:39:54.750,0:39:57.184
and I'm curious when you imagine

0:39:57.208,0:40:00.809
a country in which[br]who you are mattered first,

0:40:00.833,0:40:02.125
what does that look like?

0:40:04.167,0:40:08.226
IXK: Well, what it looks like[br]for me as a black American

0:40:08.250,0:40:14.226
is that people do not view me as dangerous

0:40:14.250,0:40:17.476
and thereby make my existence dangerous.

0:40:17.500,0:40:23.643
It allows me to walk around this country

0:40:23.667,0:40:26.809
and to not believe[br]that people are going to fear me

0:40:26.833,0:40:28.559
because of the color my skin.

0:40:28.583,0:40:30.518
It allows me to believe, you know what,

0:40:30.542,0:40:34.643
I didn't get that job because[br]I could have done better on my interview,

0:40:34.667,0:40:36.851
not because of the color of my skin.

0:40:36.875,0:40:39.143
It allows me to --

0:40:39.167,0:40:41.851
a country where there's racial equity,

0:40:41.875,0:40:44.393
a country where there's racial justice,

0:40:44.417,0:40:48.643
you know, a country[br]where there's shared opportunity,

0:40:48.667,0:40:54.268
a country where African American culture[br]and Native American culture

0:40:54.292,0:40:58.684
and the cultures of Mexican Americans

0:40:58.708,0:41:02.601
and Korean Americans[br]are all valued equally,

0:41:02.625,0:41:08.268
that no one is being asked[br]to assimilate into white American culture.

0:41:08.292,0:41:12.643
There's no such thing[br]as standard professional wear.

0:41:12.667,0:41:16.601
There's no such thing as, well,[br]you need to learn how to speak English

0:41:16.625,0:41:18.476
in order to be an American.

0:41:18.500,0:41:24.393
And we would truly not only have[br]equity and justice for all

0:41:24.417,0:41:27.726
but we would somehow have found a way

0:41:27.750,0:41:31.059
to appreciate difference,

0:41:31.083,0:41:36.684
to appreciate all of the human[br]ethnic and cultural difference

0:41:36.708,0:41:38.518
that exists in the United States.

0:41:38.542,0:41:42.601
This is what could make[br]this country great,

0:41:42.625,0:41:46.184
in which we literally become a country

0:41:46.208,0:41:50.184
where you could literally[br]travel around this country

0:41:50.208,0:41:53.059
and learn about cultures[br]from all over the world

0:41:53.083,0:41:54.601
and appreciate those cultures,

0:41:54.625,0:41:56.976
and understand even your own culture

0:41:57.000,0:42:01.101
from what other people are doing.

0:42:01.125,0:42:05.101
There's so much beauty here[br]amid all this pain

0:42:05.125,0:42:07.309
and I just want to peel away

0:42:07.333,0:42:10.559
and remove away

0:42:10.583,0:42:13.684
all of those scabs of racist policies

0:42:13.708,0:42:15.351
so that people can heal

0:42:15.375,0:42:17.208
and so that we can see true beauty.

0:42:20.417,0:42:23.184
WPR: And Ibram, when you think[br]about this moment,

0:42:23.208,0:42:25.518
where do you see that[br]on the spectrum of progress

0:42:25.542,0:42:27.667
towards reaching that true beauty?

0:42:30.208,0:42:31.559
IXK: Well, I think, for me,

0:42:31.583,0:42:36.976
I always see progress[br]and resistance in demonstrations

0:42:37.000,0:42:42.851
and know just because people[br]are calling from town squares

0:42:42.875,0:42:44.893
and from city halls

0:42:44.917,0:42:50.268
for progressive, systemic change[br]that that change is here,

0:42:50.292,0:42:51.851
but people are calling

0:42:51.875,0:42:55.309
and people are calling[br]in small towns, in big cities,

0:42:55.333,0:42:58.059
and people are calling[br]from places we've heard of

0:42:58.083,0:43:00.768
and places we need to have heard of.

0:43:00.792,0:43:03.309
People are calling for change,[br]and people are fed up.

0:43:03.333,0:43:05.643
I mean, we're living in a time

0:43:05.667,0:43:08.184
in which we're facing a viral pandemic,

0:43:08.208,0:43:11.809
a racial pandemic[br]within that viral pandemic

0:43:11.833,0:43:15.559
of people of color disproportionately[br]being infected and dying,

0:43:15.583,0:43:17.518
even an economic pandemic

0:43:17.542,0:43:23.684
with over 40 million Americans[br]having lost their jobs,

0:43:23.708,0:43:27.643
and certainly this pandemic[br]of police violence,

0:43:27.667,0:43:30.393
and then people demonstrating[br]against police violence

0:43:30.417,0:43:33.684
only to suffer police violence[br]at demonstrations.

0:43:33.708,0:43:37.059
I mean, people see[br]there's a fundamental problem here,

0:43:37.083,0:43:39.976
and there's a problem that can be solved.

0:43:40.000,0:43:42.601
There's an America that can be created,

0:43:42.625,0:43:44.226
and people are calling for this,

0:43:44.250,0:43:46.351
and that is always the beginning.

0:43:46.375,0:43:48.750
The beginning is what[br]we're experiencing now.

0:43:51.667,0:43:53.809
CS: I think that[br]this next audience question

0:43:53.833,0:43:56.018
follows well from that, which is,

0:43:56.042,0:43:57.667
"What gives you hope right now?"

0:44:00.625,0:44:06.726
IXK: So certainly resistance to racism[br]has always given me hope,

0:44:06.750,0:44:09.559
and so even if, let's say,

0:44:09.583,0:44:13.851
six months ago we were not in a time[br]in which almost every night

0:44:13.875,0:44:17.393
all over this country people[br]were demonstrating against racism,

0:44:17.417,0:44:20.059
but I could just look to history

0:44:20.083,0:44:21.893
when people were resisting.

0:44:21.917,0:44:25.518
And so resistance always brings me hope,

0:44:25.542,0:44:29.059
because it is always resistance,

0:44:29.083,0:44:30.809
and of course it's stormy,

0:44:30.833,0:44:33.768
but the rainbow[br]is typically on the other side.

0:44:33.792,0:44:38.268
But I also receive hope philosophically,

0:44:38.292,0:44:41.684
because I know that in order[br]to bring about change,

0:44:41.708,0:44:43.476
we have to believe in change.

0:44:43.500,0:44:47.059
There's just no way[br]a change maker can be cynical.

0:44:47.083,0:44:48.809
It's impossible.

0:44:48.833,0:44:51.684
So I know I have to believe in change

0:44:51.708,0:44:53.667
in order to bring it about.

0:44:57.917,0:45:00.726
WPR: And we have another question here

0:45:00.750,0:45:03.476
which addresses some of the things[br]you talked about before

0:45:03.500,0:45:06.434
in terms of the structural change[br]that we need to bring about.

0:45:06.458,0:45:10.351
From Maryam Mohit: "In terms of putting[br]into practice the transformative policies,

0:45:10.375,0:45:13.393
is then the most important thing[br]to loudly vote the right people

0:45:13.417,0:45:16.917
into office at every level who can make[br]those structural changes happen?"

0:45:20.000,0:45:22.351
IXK: So I think that that is part of it.

0:45:22.375,0:45:28.684
I certainly think[br]we should vote into office

0:45:28.708,0:45:33.476
people who, from school boards[br]to the President of the United States,

0:45:33.500,0:45:35.268
people who are committed

0:45:35.292,0:45:39.059
to instituting anti-racist policies

0:45:39.083,0:45:42.958
that lead to equity and justice,

0:45:44.208,0:45:47.893
and I think that[br]that's critically important,

0:45:47.917,0:45:50.601
but I don't think

0:45:50.625,0:45:55.768
that we should think that that's[br]the only thing we should be focused on

0:45:55.792,0:45:58.101
or the only thing that we should be doing.

0:45:58.125,0:46:02.393
And there are institutions,

0:46:02.417,0:46:04.393
there are neighborhoods

0:46:04.417,0:46:06.059
that need to be transformed,

0:46:06.083,0:46:07.726
that are to a certain extent

0:46:07.750,0:46:12.768
outside of the purview of a policymaker

0:46:12.792,0:46:14.268
who is an elected official.

0:46:14.292,0:46:18.893
There are administrators[br]and CEOs and presidents

0:46:18.917,0:46:22.309
who have the power to transform policies

0:46:22.333,0:46:25.018
within their spheres,[br]within their institutions,

0:46:25.042,0:46:27.143
and so we should be focused there.

0:46:27.167,0:46:29.809
The last thing I'll say about voting is,

0:46:29.833,0:46:33.893
I wrote a series of pieces[br]for "The Atlantic" early this year

0:46:33.917,0:46:38.684
that sought to get Americans[br]thinking about who I call

0:46:38.708,0:46:40.893
"the other swing voter,"

0:46:40.917,0:46:46.184
and not the traditional swing voter[br]who swings from Republican to Democrat

0:46:46.208,0:46:49.184
who are primarily older and white.

0:46:49.208,0:46:54.434
I'm talking about the people[br]who swing from voting Democrat

0:46:54.458,0:46:56.309
to not voting at all.

0:46:56.333,0:46:59.059
And these people are typically younger

0:46:59.083,0:47:01.101
and they're typically people of color,

0:47:01.125,0:47:03.434
but they're especially[br]young people of color,

0:47:03.458,0:47:06.809
especially young black[br]and Latinx Americans.

0:47:06.833,0:47:10.018
And so we should view these people,

0:47:10.042,0:47:13.268
these young, black and Latino voters

0:47:13.292,0:47:18.309
who are trying to decide[br]whether to vote as swing voters

0:47:18.333,0:47:21.018
in the way we view these people

0:47:21.042,0:47:24.726
who are trying to decide[br]between whether to vote for, let's say,

0:47:24.750,0:47:26.976
Trump or Biden in the general election.

0:47:27.000,0:47:30.101
In other words, to view[br]them both as swing voters

0:47:30.125,0:47:35.643
is to view them both in a way that,[br]OK, we need to persuade these people.

0:47:35.667,0:47:37.143
They're not political cattle.

0:47:37.167,0:47:39.476
We're not just going to turn them out.

0:47:39.500,0:47:42.226
We need to encourage and persuade them,

0:47:42.250,0:47:44.809
and then we also[br]for these other swing voters

0:47:44.833,0:47:47.726
need to make it easier for them to vote,

0:47:47.750,0:47:52.351
and typically these young people of color,[br]it's the hardest for them to vote

0:47:52.375,0:47:54.458
because of voter suppression policies.

0:47:57.708,0:47:59.268
CS: Thank you, Ibram.

0:47:59.292,0:48:02.101
Well, we're going to come[br]to a close of this interview,

0:48:02.125,0:48:04.059
but I would love to ask you

0:48:04.083,0:48:06.101
to read something that you wrote

0:48:06.125,0:48:07.768
a couple of days ago on Instagram.

0:48:07.792,0:48:09.643
You wrote this beautiful caption

0:48:09.667,0:48:12.101
on a photo of your daughter,

0:48:12.125,0:48:14.934
and I'm wondering if you'd be willing[br]to share that with us

0:48:14.958,0:48:18.958
and briefly tell us how we could each[br]take this perspective into our own lives.

0:48:21.375,0:48:22.976
IXK: Sure, so yeah,

0:48:23.000,0:48:27.351
I posted a picture of[br]my four-year-old daughter Imani,

0:48:27.375,0:48:29.351
and in the caption I wrote,

0:48:29.375,0:48:34.018
"I love, and because I love, I resist.

0:48:34.042,0:48:35.559
There have been many theories

0:48:35.583,0:48:39.143
on what's fueling the growing[br]demonstrations against racism

0:48:39.167,0:48:41.601
in public and private.

0:48:41.625,0:48:44.684
Let me offer another one: love.

0:48:44.708,0:48:46.184
We love.

0:48:46.208,0:48:48.309
We know the lives of our loved ones,

0:48:48.333,0:48:50.143
especially our black loved ones,

0:48:50.167,0:48:51.559
are in danger

0:48:51.583,0:48:54.226
under the violence of racism.

0:48:54.250,0:48:57.518
People ask me all the time what fuels me.

0:48:57.542,0:49:00.309
It is the same: love,

0:49:00.333,0:49:02.393
love of this little girl,

0:49:02.417,0:49:04.643
love of all the little and big people

0:49:04.667,0:49:07.476
who I want to live full lives

0:49:07.500,0:49:10.101
in the fullness of their humanity,

0:49:10.125,0:49:12.309
not barred by racist policies,

0:49:12.333,0:49:14.518
not degraded by racist ideas,

0:49:14.542,0:49:17.393
not terrorized by racist violence.

0:49:17.417,0:49:19.934
Let us be anti-racist.

0:49:19.958,0:49:21.976
Let us defend life.

0:49:22.000,0:49:26.143
Let us defend our human rights[br]to live and live fully,

0:49:26.167,0:49:28.125
because we love."

0:49:29.083,0:49:32.684
And, you know, Cloe,[br]I just wanted to sort of emphasize

0:49:32.708,0:49:36.184
that at the heart of being anti-racist

0:49:36.208,0:49:37.893
is love,

0:49:37.917,0:49:40.101
is loving one's country,

0:49:40.125,0:49:43.184
loving one's humanity,

0:49:43.208,0:49:47.351
loving one's relatives[br]and family and friends,

0:49:47.375,0:49:49.684
and certainly loving oneself.

0:49:49.708,0:49:53.559
And I consider love to be a verb.

0:49:53.583,0:49:56.559
I consider love to be,

0:49:56.583,0:49:59.226
I'm helping another, and even myself,

0:49:59.250,0:50:03.643
to constantly grow[br]into a better form of myself,

0:50:03.667,0:50:07.768
of themselves, that they've expressed[br]who they want to be.

0:50:07.792,0:50:10.809
And so to love this country[br]and to love humanity

0:50:10.833,0:50:13.518
is to push humanity constructively

0:50:13.542,0:50:15.184
to be a better form of itself,

0:50:15.208,0:50:17.893
and there's no way[br]we're going to be a better form,

0:50:17.917,0:50:21.059
there's no way we can build[br]a better humanity,

0:50:21.083,0:50:23.667
while we still have on[br]the shackles of racism.

0:50:26.375,0:50:28.809
WPR: I think that's so beautiful.

0:50:28.833,0:50:31.018
I appreciate everything[br]you've shared, Ibram.

0:50:31.042,0:50:35.143
I feel like it's made it really clear[br]this is not an easy fix. Right?

0:50:35.167,0:50:38.268
There is no band-aid option here

0:50:38.292,0:50:42.309
that will make this go away,[br]that this takes work from all of us,

0:50:42.333,0:50:45.726
and I really appreciate all of the honesty

0:50:45.750,0:50:48.292
and thoughtfulness[br]that you've brought to this today.

0:50:50.292,0:50:51.559
IXK: You're welcome.

0:50:51.583,0:50:54.333
Thank you so much for having[br]this conversation with me.

0:50:55.542,0:50:57.434
CS: Thank you so much, Ibram.

0:50:57.458,0:50:59.809
We're really grateful to you[br]for joining us.

0:50:59.833,0:51:01.083
IXK: Thank you.