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JM: Hi everybody! This is Joanne Manaster,
a blogger with Scientific American

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and I'd like you to welcome to this
very special Scientific American chat

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that we are airing on the heels

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of NASA's press conference yesterday

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about NASA's MAVEN space orbiter
that is expected to launch

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mid-November to head to Mars

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to look at the non-existent
atmosphere of Mars

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and wonder, where did it go?

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So I'm joined today by two special guests

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who can enlighten us about

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both what's going on with the orbiter

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and about unmanned or robotic
space exploration in general.

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So first, I'd like to introduce you
to a NASA space scientist,

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one of the MAVEN scientists,

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Nick Schneider, from the
University of Colorado in Boulder.

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He's with the Laboratory for
Atmospheric and Space Physics.

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That's a mouthful.

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And he's one of the members
of the Science Team.

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I'm actually going to pull up…

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He's an Associates Professor

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in the Department of Astrophysical
and Planetary Sciences

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at the University of Colorado.

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He received his PhD in Planetary Science
from the University of Arizona.

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His research interests include

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planetary atmospheres
and planetary astronomy

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with one focus on the odd case
of Jupiter's moon, Io.

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He is also the lead on the
Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrograph

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on the upcoming MAVEN mission to Mars.

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He enjoys teaching at all levels

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and is active in efforts to improve
undergraduate astronomy education.

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I'd go for that.

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Off the job, he enjoys
exploring the outdoors

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with his family
and figuring out how things work.

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What I have here?

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I'd like to show up something you've done.

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You are one of the authors on this book

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which I hear is in 7th edition.

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NS: That's right.

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JM: <i>The Cosmic Perspective</i>

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This is a beginning astronomy textbook.

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NS: Exactly.

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JM: Welcome Nick.

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I'm going to introduce Chris right now.

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Chris Impey is a
university distinguished Professor

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at the University of Arizona.

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So you guys have a connection.

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And he's Deputy Head
of the Astronomy Department.

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His research interests include

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observational cosmology,
quasars, and distant galaxies.

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He has written 160 research papers
and two astronomy textbooks

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but you say those are online, right?

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CI: Yeah, the one's repurposed.

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It's called <i>Teach Astronomy</i>
so it's up there and free.

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JM: Oh, great. He has won
11 teaching awards

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has served as a National Science
Foundation distinguished teaching scholar

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a Phi Beta Kappa visiting scholar

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and the Carnegie Council's
Arizona Professor of the Year.

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He is former Vice President of
the American Astronomical Society

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and Fellow of the AAAS.

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He has four popular books
actually now five:

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<i>The Living Cosmos</i>,
<i>How It Ends</i>, <i>Talking About Life</i>,

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and the one that we are referencing today

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called <i>Dreams of Other Worlds</i>

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which is the <i>Amazing Story of
Unmanned Space Exploration</i>.

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So welcome, Chris.

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CI: Thank you.

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JM: It's great to have you both here.

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Before we go forward

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in News of Space today,

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Chris Hatfield, Col. Chris Hatfield
from the Canadian Space Agency

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who was on the ISS and returned recently.

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As we know he made
a big splash on social media

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with his images, and singing,

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and his videos explaining his music.


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He has published a book
It is out today.

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So if you haven't gotten
you haven't heard of it, it's called

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<i>An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth:
 What Going to Space</i>

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<i>Taught Me About Ingenuity, Determination,
and Being Prepared for Anything</i>

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And we at Scientific American

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will have him as a guest
on November 14th at noon.

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So mark that on your calendars
and join us if you can for that.

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So, let's talk a little bit about MAVEN

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before we talk about un-manned
space exploration in general

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or robotic space exploration in general.

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There's a lot of interest,
so why don't we do some of the details?

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When is this expected to launch?

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NS: MAVEN is slated to launch
in the afternoon of November 18th.

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It's a short period every afternoon

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for a couple of weeks

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when all the planets are aligned,

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because we have to have the Earth
in the right position relative to Mars

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and the right rotation of the Earth

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so that the spacecraft will actually
get to Mars on time.

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If you ever wanted to know somebody

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whose life was controlled
by the positions of the planets

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well, that's anybody trying to launch
a spacecraft to another planet.

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JM: But not the rest of us.

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So what's in paper is not relevant at all.

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But actually there are several days

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so you have a window
of several days during this time.

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NS: That's right, it's a couple of weeks
and the main thing that happens

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if the planets go out of alignment
it just takes a little bit extra fuel.

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And fuel is precious,
it's our ability to maneuver

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when we get to Mars.

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So we really want to launch
at that sweet spot

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early in the launch window.

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JM: That's fantastic.

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I'm excited because I'm going down
for the launch, myself.

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The only other launch I've seen

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is the last space shuttle launch.

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I'm glad I got to see that one.

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So, I'm looking forward
to watching an Atlis-5 go off.

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NS: Me too.

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JM: I'm really quite excited about this.

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So, as far as…

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We're wondering, for those of who did
not catch the press conference yesterday.

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What is MAVEN going to do?

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NS: Sure, I'm happy to explain that.

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I'm pretty sure that
the members of the hangout

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are going to be pretty familiar

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with the basics on Mars.

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A hundred years ago or more

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anybody who looked through
the telescope on Mars

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really wondered what was going on
with the change of the seasons.

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There was actually a suspicion
that there was life on Mars,

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water on Mars,

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but by the time
the first NASA probes got to Mars

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what they discovered instead

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is that the atmosphere now
is next to nothing.

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There's no flowing water or evidence

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of abundant water on the surface

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and instead it's this really cold

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really dry planet.

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And yet, you look at those images

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and what you see from the spacecraft

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are dried up river beds

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river deltas filing up craters.

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There must have been
a warmer wetter environment

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billions of years ago.

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And the only way that's possible

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is for there to have been
a huge greenhouse effect

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with lots more atmosphere.

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Everybody's best guess

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is that Mars has lost
80, 90, 99% of the atmosphere

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over billions of years.

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We used to think that
the atmosphere on Mars

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might have combined with the surface.

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That's actually where limestone
comes from on the Earth.

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It's carbon-dioxide being
sucked into the surface.

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But the missions sent to Mars so far

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can't find enough evidence

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that the atmosphere
re-combined with the surface.

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So we're left with the other possibility

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that the atmosphere escaped away to space.

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And so that's what MAVEN
is going to go check.

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Is it possible

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that through the host of processes

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we understand that the escape rate
of the atmosphere to space

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is large enough to explain

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where almost all the early
Mars atmosphere went?

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And I can get into more detail

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about how we make
those measurements, if you want,

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but I just wanted you
to get the basic idea

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about what MAVEN's about,

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JM: That's interesting.

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So part of my interest in this

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is I was invited to come
to a New Media workshop

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out there at the University of Colorado

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and to listen to you scientists talk about

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what MAVEN was all about.

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So I'm happy to follow up
with this hangout

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for the Scientific American audience.

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One thing that was interesting was

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Why didn't we send a probe to Venus?

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We've sent probes elsewhere 
to look at the atmosphere.

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But why not Venus?

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I mean that's so obvious
it's so close, but…

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I'll actually ask Chris

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to weigh in on this because
you've just written a book

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about almost every single
unmanned exploration craft

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that's been sent out.

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CI: I think that the trouble with
planetary science now

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is there's so many good ideas to pursue,

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and so few new starts possible
in the budget.

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You can't do everything.

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I was hanging out at JPL

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lecturing to engineers there

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and one of them was the lead
on a Venus mission,

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a Venus lander,

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which got deselected at the last stage.

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When it got down to the final four
it wasn't picked.

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And it was really challenging

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because, you know, Venus
is a pretty nasty place

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and they had a mission
that was going to land there

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take data for ten days

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before it got baked out and died

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and learn an enormous amount about Venus.

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So, you know, there are missions

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sitting there on the shelf

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from NASA people
and people who work with NASA

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to do almost everything you could imagine

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whether it's Hydrobot

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melting through the European ice pack
and looking for life

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or going back to Titan with dirigibles

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and sampling all the lakes

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or the more advanced Mars concepts

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that would actually look for life

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by drilling down to what we think
might be aquifers underneath.

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There are all these concepts out there

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and not enough coin to do most of them.

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JM: Yeah,

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with the number of things we've sent out

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and we've learned a lot,
it just seems infinite

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what else we could possibly learn

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if we could send every dream

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of explorers out there.

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Actually before we get back to
the Mars atmosphere and MAVEN

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I was interested,

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when I first mentioned to my editor,

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I want to talk about this book
and the MAVEN thing.

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Your subtitle is <i>The Amazing Story of 
Unmanned Space Exploration</i>

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and I was immediately countered with

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"Oh, that's not the correct term

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"the politically correct term

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"to use the word 'unmanned' ".

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And I inquired of you about that.

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So do you want to explain why you chose
"unmanned" versus "robotic"

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despite the fact "unmanned"
might upset people?

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CI: To be honest, that was
a publisher decision actually

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They published a book
and they get the deciding vote on that.

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"Robotic" would have been
a better choice, I agree.

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And, we've had to take
the various languages…

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Look at the evolution of the Star Trek
the famous Star Trek line,

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"where no <i>man</i> has gone before" to
"where no <i>one</i> has gone before"

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So there's been
suitable and appropriate evolution

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of some of these iconic phrases

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JM: So, would both of you agree that
"robotic" is probably

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just a better term, or a perfect term

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or is there an even better term?
'Cause we've sent out telescopes…?

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And when I think of "robotic"

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I think of lots of moving arms


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and things that are grabbing things
to bring back to analyze

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and less so just
analytical equipment or optics.

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But, I guess, my expansion of "robotics"
might need to expand.

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NS: I use "robotic exploration".

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CI: They do feel quite different.

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Orbiting telescopes
or telescopes at the LaGrange Point

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they're just the technology
we use on Earth to observe

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transplanted into space.

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And we remote observe on the Earth

251
00:12:09,469 --> 00:12:11,817
I don't have to go to
Chili or Hawaii anymore

252
00:12:11,817 --> 00:12:14,022
because I can remote observe
from my office.

253
00:12:14,241 --> 00:12:17,437
But I think "robotic" is appropriate

254
00:12:17,437 --> 00:12:19,029
for the planetary missions

255
00:12:19,029 --> 00:12:21,374
because they're literally
like sense extenders.

256
00:12:21,393 --> 00:12:23,462
They're our eyes and our ears

257
00:12:23,501 --> 00:12:27,521
on another world, and we often
operate them that way.

258
00:12:30,250 --> 00:12:33,620
JM: I'll have Chris give sort of

259
00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:37,658
a history of robotic exploration
on Mars for us

260
00:12:37,734 --> 00:12:41,356
and then we'll go back and talk a
little bit more about the MAVEN mission.

261
00:12:41,414 --> 00:12:43,133
So, think back to your book,

262
00:12:43,133 --> 00:12:45,808
what you've talked about
the different explorers

263
00:12:45,808 --> 00:12:48,398
that have goneto Mars
and what they've accomplished.

264
00:12:48,455 --> 00:12:51,504
Maybe their drawbacks

265
00:12:51,504 --> 00:12:53,520
and how we're improving on that?

266
00:12:53,577 --> 00:12:56,959
CI: Right, why I was interested in that book

267
00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:58,838
is that I think that some people

268
00:12:58,857 --> 00:13:02,707
just underestimate how fantastic
these technologies really are.

269
00:13:02,783 --> 00:13:05,910
Just setting Mars aside for a minute,

270
00:13:05,986 --> 00:13:08,867
the Huygens probe to soft-land on a world

271
00:13:08,915 --> 00:13:10,979
nearly a billion miles away

272
00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:13,560
and then inspect it
and find that it has

273
00:13:13,579 --> 00:13:16,663
this bizarre Earth-like lakes,

274
00:13:16,663 --> 00:13:19,709
and weather and cryovolcanism,
and all this cool stuff.

275
00:13:19,871 --> 00:13:21,670
That's an amazing achievement

276
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:23,743
and to go back to the beginning

277
00:13:23,763 --> 00:13:26,581
the Viking missions, long forgotten now

278
00:13:26,695 --> 00:13:30,145
most Americans were not alive
when those missions were designed.

279
00:13:30,145 --> 00:13:32,383
They were 1960s technology

280
00:13:32,431 --> 00:13:35,126
Think of computers then,
think of electronics then.

281
00:13:35,221 --> 00:13:38,250
And those two landers and two orbiters

282
00:13:38,298 --> 00:13:39,869
did amazing things.

283
00:13:39,954 --> 00:13:41,845
They did life-detection experiments

284
00:13:41,874 --> 00:13:44,160
that have not been surpassed since

285
00:13:44,179 --> 00:13:47,690
and one of which at least
led to an ambiguous result.

286
00:13:47,155 --> 00:13:50,356
So, the Vikings were amazing missions

287
00:13:50,375 --> 00:13:52,831
for that time, 40 years ago

288
00:13:52,879 --> 00:13:56,762
and we've just continued
the progression with rovers.

289
00:13:56,974 --> 00:14:01,948
Then NASA having gone for the
bouncing bag landing mechanism

290
00:14:02,140 --> 00:14:04,603
which is kind of safe, very forgiving

291
00:14:04,603 --> 00:14:07,437
upped the degree of difficulty hugely

292
00:14:07,485 --> 00:14:09,587
with Curiosity and the Skycrane.

293
00:14:09,834 --> 00:14:12,307
So again, amazing technologies

294
00:14:12,345 --> 00:14:13,821
really high risk

295
00:14:13,821 --> 00:14:16,982
and high reward
and high payoff activities.

296
00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:22,702
These types of missions
absolutely push our technology.

297
00:14:23,017 --> 00:14:25,160
Now a geologist would tell you

298
00:14:25,630 --> 00:14:28,153
there is no substitute
for bringing back Mars rocks.

299
00:14:28,248 --> 00:14:32,910
On Earth you could examine them
molecule by molecule.

300
00:14:32,206 --> 00:14:35,455
But what you can compress into

301
00:14:35,455 --> 00:14:38,522
something that you can launch
and will survive the passage

302
00:14:38,522 --> 00:14:40,982
and the launch, and the entry into Mars

303
00:14:40,982 --> 00:14:43,240
is still pretty amazing technology.

304
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,605
The instruments on Curiosity,
for instance,

305
00:14:45,605 --> 00:14:48,967
I think we absolutely push the envelope

306
00:14:48,967 --> 00:14:52,212
of almost everything
we can do in technology

307
00:14:52,212 --> 00:14:54,557
when we design these kind of missions.

308
00:14:54,652 --> 00:14:56,693
NS: Yeah, Chris, if I can jump in here

309
00:14:56,693 --> 00:14:59,612
and add onto this
you talk about high technology

310
00:14:59,612 --> 00:15:02,340
high performance, high capability.

311
00:15:02,398 --> 00:15:05,391
But part of the message
that sometimes gets lost

312
00:15:05,467 --> 00:15:07,564
is that this is also low cost.

313
00:15:07,783 --> 00:15:10,574
If you think about every image

314
00:15:10,574 --> 00:15:13,571
ever returned by Cassini spacecraft

315
00:15:13,609 --> 00:15:16,606
or every rock ever picked up
by a Mars rover

316
00:15:17,127 --> 00:15:20,477
the sum total of all this
robotic exploration

317
00:15:20,535 --> 00:15:23,209
is less than half of NASA's budget.

318
00:15:23,418 --> 00:15:25,217
It's a small fraction.

319
00:15:25,322 --> 00:15:27,862
Putting humans in space

320
00:15:27,862 --> 00:15:31,223
as dramatic and as forward moving as it is

321
00:15:31,290 --> 00:15:34,200
and as much as I love that, too

322
00:15:34,409 --> 00:15:36,164
that's more expensive.

323
00:15:36,904 --> 00:15:38,974
What we can do with robots

324
00:15:38,974 --> 00:15:40,992
being so much more affordable

325
00:15:41,210 --> 00:15:43,933
we can go everywhere
and we can go there now.

326
00:15:44,171 --> 00:15:48,862
So, it was really the immediacy
of robotic exploration

327
00:15:48,862 --> 00:15:52,570
and our pervasive presence in space

328
00:15:52,570 --> 00:15:56,220
that makes it such
a compelling subject for me.

329
00:15:56,733 --> 00:15:59,564
CI: And, of course, that advantage
will just continue to grow

330
00:15:59,564 --> 00:16:01,479
because the robotic missions

331
00:16:01,479 --> 00:16:03,437
will become more miniaturized.

332
00:16:03,485 --> 00:16:05,649
They will benefit from Moore's Law

333
00:16:05,687 --> 00:16:08,389
and humans are always going to be tricky

334
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:10,434
and difficult to sustain in space.

335
00:16:10,491 --> 00:16:13,219
Space is not a natural place for humans.

336
00:16:13,543 --> 00:16:15,445
We're sort of shading into a huge debate

337
00:16:15,445 --> 00:16:18,580
that plays out in our various communities

338
00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:22,658
of man versus unmanned
or human versus non-human or robotic

339
00:16:22,658 --> 00:16:24,692
and it doesn't have to be either or.

340
00:16:24,768 --> 00:16:26,892
You're going to be talking
to Chris Hatfield

341
00:16:26,892 --> 00:16:29,477
and when the astronauts
like him or John Grunsfeld

342
00:16:29,477 --> 00:16:32,369
who we've had here a number of times
and who's a hero.

343
00:16:32,578 --> 00:16:35,412
He walks into the auditorium
and he gets a standing ovation

344
00:16:35,450 --> 00:16:38,733
from 200 astronomers
the guy who fixed Hubble three times.

345
00:16:38,962 --> 00:16:41,572
So, there's no substitute for <i>that</i> either.

346
00:16:41,629 --> 00:16:43,222
But it's expensive.

347
00:16:43,222 --> 00:16:45,443
The space shuttle real cost

348
00:16:45,510 --> 00:16:47,490
was half a billion dollars a launch

349
00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:49,651
and a couple of shuttle launches

350
00:16:49,660 --> 00:16:52,342
buys you a really cool planetary probe

351
00:16:52,342 --> 00:16:54,718
so that's a hard trade-off.

352
00:16:57,145 --> 00:17:00,495
JM: I actually really liked
your recap of the Hubble

353
00:17:00,495 --> 00:17:05,126
the entire Hubble
building, launching, and repair

354
00:17:05,126 --> 00:17:06,730
in your book.

355
00:17:06,836 --> 00:17:09,116
It's worth visiting the book just for that.

356
00:17:09,154 --> 00:17:12,250
But I did really like that retelling.

357
00:17:13,105 --> 00:17:14,682
What I wanted to say

358
00:17:14,729 --> 00:17:17,169
now that Chris has
talked about the different

359
00:17:17,169 --> 00:17:19,800
probes that are there
that we sent there.

360
00:17:20,525 --> 00:17:23,503
Of course, we know
we just had a government shutdown

361
00:17:23,570 --> 00:17:29,179
and this probably had you guys
at MAVEN sweating... a lot

362
00:17:30,292 --> 00:17:34,372
but you got a bit of a reprieve

363
00:17:34,782 --> 00:17:38,342
and they allowed you to continue the work.

364
00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:42,864
Do you want to explain why you guys
were allowed to get that exemption?

365
00:17:43,580 --> 00:17:46,227
- Sure
- But the NAH couldn't?

366
00:17:47,055 --> 00:17:50,737
NS: So, the MAVEN project did stand down

367
00:17:50,737 --> 00:17:52,380
for a couple of days

368
00:17:52,427 --> 00:17:54,642
under the government shutdown.

369
00:17:56,664 --> 00:18:00,471
We were all very anxious
and frustrated by this.

370
00:18:01,351 --> 00:18:03,006
This mission is ready to go

371
00:18:03,006 --> 00:18:05,336
and it's got great science

372
00:18:05,336 --> 00:18:08,145
but under the terms of the shutdown

373
00:18:08,339 --> 00:18:12,496
that's not enough to get the exemption.

374
00:18:12,867 --> 00:18:16,863
And even the fact that missing this launch
window that I talked about

375
00:18:16,948 --> 00:18:21,100
and waiting in cold storage
for a couple of years

376
00:18:21,157 --> 00:18:24,351
for the next chance would cost
a couple hundred million dollars

377
00:18:24,408 --> 00:18:26,931
even that was not enough.

378
00:18:26,998 --> 00:18:29,786
But, what really mattered is the fact that

379
00:18:29,862 --> 00:18:35,652
built into MAVEN is a relay capability
for radio transmission

380
00:18:36,204 --> 00:18:38,517
with the rovers on the surface

381
00:18:38,853 --> 00:18:41,903
and so it's really these ongoing missions

382
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,789
that we need to preserve
the capability for communication.

383
00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:49,609
That was the primary justification
for MAVEN getting

384
00:18:50,384 --> 00:18:52,744
exempted from the shutdown.

385
00:18:52,820 --> 00:18:55,280
There are a couple of satellites
around Mars

386
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,391
that are capable of performing
that relay function

387
00:18:57,391 --> 00:18:59,777
but they're getting
a little long in the tooth

388
00:19:00,144 --> 00:19:04,307
and we needed to make sure that MAVEN
would get there in <i>this</i> launch window

389
00:19:04,642 --> 00:19:08,244
to be able to fulfill that role as needed.

390
00:19:08,491 --> 00:19:10,573
Now we hope those other missions survive

391
00:19:10,573 --> 00:19:12,110
but the last thing you want

392
00:19:12,110 --> 00:19:15,123
is Curiosity, on the surface
making great discoveries

393
00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:18,437
and no capability for
the high data rate back to Earth.

394
00:19:18,503 --> 00:19:21,870
So that was what got MAVEN back on track.

395
00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:25,610
And we are on track
for the launch on November 18th.

396
00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:27,257
Did I say November 18th?

397
00:19:27,314 --> 00:19:28,390
JM: Yes.

398
00:19:28,571 --> 00:19:30,629
CI: I can't resist commenting that.

399
00:19:30,629 --> 00:19:33,590
We're talking about how high-tech
space exploration is.

400
00:19:33,770 --> 00:19:37,560
One of the areas where it's really
behind the curve is communication.

401
00:19:38,546 --> 00:19:41,720
Probably some of your viewers may know

402
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,930
that Vincent Serf, who is the architect
of the original internet

403
00:19:45,183 --> 00:19:48,325
is now working with NASA
on an interplanetary internet,

404
00:19:48,372 --> 00:19:50,702
because there are real problems

405
00:19:50,740 --> 00:19:53,662
with operating the internet
beyond the Earth

406
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:58,347
because you have missions
with hour-long transmission times

407
00:19:58,347 --> 00:20:00,565
and they have to look up IP addresses

408
00:20:00,565 --> 00:20:03,836
and they have to get hooked

409
00:20:03,912 --> 00:20:06,579
into the patchwork quilt
that is the internet

410
00:20:06,579 --> 00:20:08,613
and the protocols that go with it.

411
00:20:08,613 --> 00:20:10,360
There's no way to do that right now.

412
00:20:10,541 --> 00:20:14,870
So, we actually have to design
an entirely new architecture

413
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:16,920
for interplanetary internet

414
00:20:16,169 --> 00:20:19,113
on which all of these
space missions will depend.

415
00:20:19,664 --> 00:20:22,120
JM: That's really interesting.

416
00:20:22,489 --> 00:20:26,449
CI: It's been pioneered by the mission
that's just gone to the moon, actually.

417
00:20:26,856 --> 00:20:28,620
JM: Bellary.

418
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,940
CI: Bellary has been just pioneering

419
00:20:30,122 --> 00:20:33,218
some of the first transmission protocols
under this new internet

420
00:20:33,218 --> 00:20:35,650
a protocol for planetary explor…

421
00:20:35,754 --> 00:20:38,726
JM: Is that built into the MAVEN, too then?

422
00:20:38,971 --> 00:20:42,648
NS: No, we don't have
that advanced technology.

423
00:20:45,251 --> 00:20:48,502
JM: You have a picture
of MAVEN behind you

424
00:20:48,502 --> 00:20:50,593
and you also have a model.

425
00:20:50,962 --> 00:20:54,459
Why don't you pull that forward
and sort of explain

426
00:20:54,707 --> 00:20:56,634
what we've got going on

427
00:20:56,634 --> 00:20:58,870
so people have a…

428
00:20:58,870 --> 00:21:00,501
Because everyone's got this idea

429
00:21:00,501 --> 00:21:03,453
of what Curiosity looks like, right?

430
00:21:03,814 --> 00:21:06,340
Because there are just images all the time

431
00:21:06,340 --> 00:21:08,620
of the rovers displayed on the internet
and everything.

432
00:21:08,648 --> 00:21:12,491
So, I thought we could get an idea
of what an orbiter this type

433
00:21:12,491 --> 00:21:14,483
is going to look like and do.

434
00:21:14,588 --> 00:21:17,507
NS: Sure, and I'm glad you emphasized
the word "orbiter".

435
00:21:17,583 --> 00:21:20,865
This spacecraft doesn't land
on the surface.

436
00:21:21,257 --> 00:21:24,582
We just orbit the planet
over and over again

437
00:21:24,658 --> 00:21:26,943
about every five hours, or so

438
00:21:26,972 --> 00:21:28,769
studying the different ways

439
00:21:28,807 --> 00:21:30,989
that the atmosphere
can escape away to space

440
00:21:31,122 --> 00:21:33,664
and even what the atmosphere properties

441
00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:37,210
are high up in the atmosphere.

442
00:21:37,296 --> 00:21:39,522
But to give you a bit of a tour

443
00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:42,029
this is a 1/30th scale model.

444
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,259
So the actual MAVEN spacecraft

445
00:21:44,316 --> 00:21:47,856
from tip to tip is about the size
of a school bus.

446
00:21:47,999 --> 00:21:49,776
And everything that you see out here

447
00:21:49,776 --> 00:21:52,183
all this real estate, is the solar arrays.

448
00:21:52,373 --> 00:21:54,580
So we gather enough solar power

449
00:21:54,647 --> 00:21:58,910
to fuel all of our instruments
all of our controlled electronics.

450
00:22:01,374 --> 00:22:04,884
Right here is where
we keep the explosives.

451
00:22:05,164 --> 00:22:07,417
This is the fuel that we fire

452
00:22:07,417 --> 00:22:09,787
as we enter Mars' orbit.

453
00:22:09,901 --> 00:22:12,178
It has to slow us down
all the excess energy

454
00:22:12,216 --> 00:22:14,305
that we arrive there with.

455
00:22:14,595 --> 00:22:19,419
And, so the actual
rocket nozzles are down here.

456
00:22:19,923 --> 00:22:23,655
And this is our relay antenna

457
00:22:23,905 --> 00:22:26,462
by which we send
our own data back to Earth

458
00:22:26,462 --> 00:22:29,631
and also any data from the rovers

459
00:22:29,688 --> 00:22:32,418
when they need us
to perform that function.

460
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,974
And when we talk about robotic exploration

461
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,139
we might say that humans
have five senses

462
00:22:40,426 --> 00:22:44,302
Well, I have to say that
spacecraft can have dozens

463
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,244
or you can choose from dozens
of different kinds of senses

464
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,377
when you're designing
your robotic explorer.

465
00:22:51,530 --> 00:22:55,451
And Chris has already talked about

466
00:22:55,518 --> 00:22:59,488
how robots can be the eyes and ears
and those analogies are really quite good.

467
00:22:59,621 --> 00:23:03,429
So, for example, you can see
we've got these antennas here

468
00:23:03,429 --> 00:23:06,594
and we've got some
devices out on the end here.

469
00:23:06,594 --> 00:23:08,634
These are like the ears of the spacecraft

470
00:23:08,691 --> 00:23:11,712
listening to the magnetic and electric fields


471
00:23:11,712 --> 00:23:15,101
as they change in the vicinity
of the spacecraft.

472
00:23:15,855 --> 00:23:17,733
One of the things our spacecraft does

473
00:23:17,771 --> 00:23:21,192
is it actually flies
through the atmosphere

474
00:23:21,192 --> 00:23:22,996
actually it flies this way.

475
00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:26,995
That's why the solar arrays
are angled like that.

476
00:23:27,738 --> 00:23:29,861
As we fly through the atmosphere

477
00:23:29,861 --> 00:23:31,664
we have a handful of instruments

478
00:23:31,664 --> 00:23:34,398
that it's like smelling
or tasting the atmosphere.

479
00:23:34,502 --> 00:23:38,043
Particle by particle they can see
what the atmosphere is made out of

480
00:23:38,043 --> 00:23:40,266
and even how fast
those particles are going

481
00:23:40,266 --> 00:23:42,832
and if they'll escape away.

482
00:23:43,587 --> 00:23:46,570
My baby is this instrument, right here.

483
00:23:46,570 --> 00:23:48,685
It's the Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrograph.

484
00:23:48,685 --> 00:23:50,871
It's the eyes of MAVEN.

485
00:23:51,207 --> 00:23:52,617
You might not know it

486
00:23:52,617 --> 00:23:54,830
but every atmosphere in the solar system

487
00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:58,150
is glowing like crazy in the ultraviolet.

488
00:23:59,021 --> 00:24:02,325
We have this instrument
that can spread the spectrum apart

489
00:24:02,325 --> 00:24:04,962
and see how much carbon dioxide is,

490
00:24:04,962 --> 00:24:07,675
how much hydrogen, how much oxygen,

491
00:24:08,661 --> 00:24:10,498
all those different ingredients

492
00:24:10,517 --> 00:24:12,734
how they're distributed
through the atmosphere

493
00:24:12,734 --> 00:24:15,883
and even, again,
their chances of escaping.

494
00:24:15,883 --> 00:24:18,168
So this spacecraft is perfectly designed

495
00:24:18,168 --> 00:24:20,926
with every instrument onboard
that's necessary

496
00:24:20,926 --> 00:24:23,121
to track all the different ways

497
00:24:23,121 --> 00:24:26,020
that the atoms and molecules
of the Mars atmosphere

498
00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:28,175
can escape away to space.

499
00:24:28,535 --> 00:24:31,306
Did I leave anything out?
Did you have any questions?

500
00:24:31,351 --> 00:24:34,525
JM: When you're saying it's going
through the atmosphere

501
00:24:34,525 --> 00:24:37,637
were you saying that's towards the planet
or away from the planet?

502
00:24:37,637 --> 00:24:39,596
Because there are some dips

503
00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:41,302
you are doing, like planned…

504
00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:42,507
NS: That's right.

505
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,716
Let me get my other prop here.

506
00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:48,606
JM: Which will not be to scale?

507
00:24:51,675 --> 00:24:54,843
NS: I don't have enough hands
to really do it right.

508
00:24:54,963 --> 00:24:57,923
But to keep things in perspective

509
00:24:57,923 --> 00:24:59,968
remember that a planet's atmosphere

510
00:24:59,968 --> 00:25:02,809
is really thin on the scale of the planet.

511
00:25:02,844 --> 00:25:07,496
Mars is considerably
smaller than the Earth,

512
00:25:07,652 --> 00:25:10,516
larger than the moon
intermediate-size planet

513
00:25:10,545 --> 00:25:15,313
but still the atmosphere
is just about 100, 200 km down here.

514
00:25:15,409 --> 00:25:18,936
And our spacecraft is designed

515
00:25:18,936 --> 00:25:22,071
to swoop from high altitudes here, down

516
00:25:22,318 --> 00:25:26,400
and fly, skim through the upper layers

517
00:25:27,575 --> 00:25:30,690
where the air resistance
is pretty significant

518
00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:32,820
and then come back up again.

519
00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:35,163
We're actually able to take
images of the planet from up here

520
00:25:35,163 --> 00:25:37,346
and then we'll dip back down.

521
00:25:37,346 --> 00:25:40,230
And, every now and again
we change our orbit,

522
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:43,947
so that we go even deeper
into the atmosphere.

523
00:25:44,034 --> 00:25:47,734
It's still far above where airplanes fly
or anything like that

524
00:25:47,734 --> 00:25:50,464
in terms of density in Earth's atmosphere

525
00:25:50,464 --> 00:25:52,734
but it's a region of great interest

526
00:25:52,734 --> 00:25:55,568
for the upper layers of the atmosphere

527
00:25:55,568 --> 00:25:57,299
where gasses start to escape.

528
00:25:57,299 --> 00:25:59,210
So we call those deep dips.

529
00:25:59,343 --> 00:26:01,930
Nonetheless,

530
00:26:02,973 --> 00:26:07,670
it's pretty I won't say hair-raising
I'll just say unnerving

531
00:26:07,172 --> 00:26:10,108
the sight that every orbit
we dip down into the atmosphere

532
00:26:10,118 --> 00:26:12,962
that's just a little bit of friction
and we come out again.

533
00:26:13,660 --> 00:26:16,408
It's why we need to have fuel
so we can continue to tune the orbit

534
00:26:16,408 --> 00:26:20,260
and not dip down any deeper
than we need to, scientifically.

535
00:26:20,646 --> 00:26:22,863
JM: So how long is this…

536
00:26:22,910 --> 00:26:26,986
How long is MAVEN's,
your science project, supposed to last?

537
00:26:27,214 --> 00:26:30,854
And then I'll get to Chris
about the longevity of things

538
00:26:30,912 --> 00:26:33,426
because things have lasted
longer than we thought.

539
00:26:33,483 --> 00:26:36,369
So your project
is slated to last how long?

540
00:26:36,558 --> 00:26:39,032
You'll be collecting data officially…?

541
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,480
CI: The MAVEN primary mission

542
00:26:41,509 --> 00:26:43,497
is one Earth year in duration.

543
00:26:43,678 --> 00:26:46,570
We were hoping that we could
slip in the fine print

544
00:26:46,570 --> 00:26:48,952
change one Earth year to one Mars year

545
00:26:48,999 --> 00:26:51,512
but it turns out they're tracking that.

546
00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:54,769
But one Earth year is enough for us

547
00:26:54,816 --> 00:26:58,318
to sample all the different
conditions of the atmosphere

548
00:26:58,318 --> 00:27:03,017
especially how the atmosphere behaves
when the sun kind of goes kablooey.

549
00:27:03,188 --> 00:27:06,856
I'm sure that the viewers
are aware of solar activity

550
00:27:06,894 --> 00:27:08,952
and the way that the sun
can spit out

551
00:27:08,981 --> 00:27:12,243
extra energetic photons,
energetic particles.

552
00:27:12,614 --> 00:27:16,212
Those are the processes that can
strip away the Mars atmosphere.

553
00:27:16,507 --> 00:27:20,474
And we really want to study how the
atmosphere behaves under those conditions

554
00:27:20,474 --> 00:27:24,246
and we should see that
in our one Earth year primary mission.

555
00:27:24,426 --> 00:27:28,171
JM: So there's an anticipated
major solar activity, right?

556
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,179
That this is of concern as you guys arrive

557
00:27:31,303 --> 00:27:33,154
if I remember correctly?

558
00:27:33,389 --> 00:27:35,225
NS: The sun is unpredictable.

559
00:27:35,329 --> 00:27:38,822
We don't know what the sun's going
to do when we arrive,

560
00:27:38,984 --> 00:27:41,041
You might be thinking about the comet

561
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:43,800
that gets to Mars
around the same time that we do,

562
00:27:43,891 --> 00:27:46,606
JM:That must be what I'm thinking of
which is different.

563
00:27:46,638 --> 00:27:49,280
NS: Always something going on
in our solar system.

564
00:27:50,569 --> 00:27:53,654
JM: Now, you will not be doing
any sort of readings on the comet

565
00:27:53,711 --> 00:27:55,865
unless it affects the atmosphere, right?

566
00:27:55,865 --> 00:27:57,599
NS: That's too soon to tell.

567
00:27:57,741 --> 00:28:00,615
We're putting all that on hold
until we're safely launched.

568
00:28:00,852 --> 00:28:03,697
I just needed to correct

569
00:28:03,755 --> 00:28:06,724
something that I said a minute ago
and that is to say

570
00:28:06,781 --> 00:28:08,581
we are arriving at Mars

571
00:28:09,148 --> 00:28:12,194
while the sun is
in a statistically active period.

572
00:28:12,932 --> 00:28:14,745
So that part was correct.

573
00:28:14,984 --> 00:28:17,386
But whether or not there's going to be

574
00:28:17,443 --> 00:28:19,679
a good solar storm the day we turn on

575
00:28:19,727 --> 00:28:21,546
we wish, but we don't know.

576
00:28:21,746 --> 00:28:24,605
JM: We don't know that for sure,
that's one of those things.

577
00:28:24,689 --> 00:28:27,936
I want to pop back to Chris
because, first of all,

578
00:28:28,041 --> 00:28:30,599
this area writing this book

579
00:28:30,675 --> 00:28:34,294
about unmanned space exploration
is not your original field of study.

580
00:28:34,428 --> 00:28:37,962
This is not what you prefer to do
but you're very interested.

581
00:28:37,998 --> 00:28:42,177
You've been allowed a lot of insights
by the people you know.

582
00:28:42,332 --> 00:28:45,034
NS: Yeah, he chose the wrong field
when he was young.

583
00:28:45,217 --> 00:28:47,689
CI: Well, I talked to people
like Caroline Porco

584
00:28:47,737 --> 00:28:49,990
and she said it's like child-rearing.

585
00:28:50,056 --> 00:28:52,775
You've got to set aside
an 18-20 year timespan

586
00:28:52,832 --> 00:28:54,599
to do something like Cassini

587
00:28:54,682 --> 00:28:58,418
I'm just a bit too much of an
instant gratification kind of person.

588
00:28:58,514 --> 00:29:01,277
I like to go to a big telescope
get my data, write a paper

589
00:29:01,324 --> 00:29:03,195
and be done within six months.

590
00:29:03,243 --> 00:29:05,715
So it's just impatience
that's the only thing

591
00:29:05,801 --> 00:29:08,516
I do want to echo
one thing Nick talked about.

592
00:29:08,554 --> 00:29:11,985
The trajectory, and the swooping
in and out of the atmosphere.

593
00:29:12,186 --> 00:29:14,164
That's another one of the amazing…

594
00:29:14,221 --> 00:29:16,836
the orbital mechanics
of the people that do this

595
00:29:16,903 --> 00:29:19,613
in the outer solar system
or anywhere in the solar system

596
00:29:19,689 --> 00:29:21,301
it's pretty amazing.

597
00:29:21,358 --> 00:29:26,280
Cassini will by the end of it's
equinox and solstice missions

598
00:29:26,309 --> 00:29:28,406
have done over a hundred flybys.

599
00:29:28,482 --> 00:29:30,813
And they of course
re-program these in real time.

600
00:29:30,908 --> 00:29:34,037
Once you find out that ???
is interesting you go back to it.

601
00:29:34,222 --> 00:29:36,531
And I think the closest approach

602
00:29:36,608 --> 00:29:40,441
was 22 km via Iapetus
and that's incredible.

603
00:29:40,564 --> 00:29:43,857
And that's a billion miles away
and you're swooping your billion

604
00:29:43,952 --> 00:29:46,294
multi-billion dollar hardware.

605
00:29:46,844 --> 00:29:49,853
NS: And don't forget that this
was all pre-programmed

606
00:29:49,879 --> 00:29:51,693
weeks or months in advance

607
00:29:51,731 --> 00:29:53,996
because there's no two-way communication.

608
00:29:53,996 --> 00:29:55,537
No one's driving Cassini.

609
00:29:55,596 --> 00:29:58,476
CI: That's right. So, these are really

610
00:29:58,542 --> 00:30:00,592
remarkable feats to be doing,

611
00:30:00,630 --> 00:30:03,659
and the people who do that,
they must be having a hell of fun.

612
00:30:03,773 --> 00:30:06,722
Just like the guy who was
was the deputy PI

613
00:30:06,779 --> 00:30:09,569
of the Deep Impact mission.

614
00:30:09,670 --> 00:30:11,718
He was quoted afterwards saying

615
00:30:11,741 --> 00:30:14,464
"I can't believe they're paying us
to have this much fun".

616
00:30:14,504 --> 00:30:16,527
NS: That's right, and every now and again

617
00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:18,608
somebody will come up to me and say,

618
00:30:18,646 --> 00:30:22,497
"Oh, are you a rocket scientist?"
and you know, I get a little chuffed.

619
00:30:22,773 --> 00:30:25,771
But then I was put in my place recently
when somebody said,

620
00:30:25,828 --> 00:30:28,485
"Huh, rocket scientist. I would <i>never</i> get

621
00:30:28,523 --> 00:30:31,202
into a rocket made by a scientist".

622
00:30:33,265 --> 00:30:36,832
It's the rocket engineers
that really deserve the credit.

623
00:30:36,952 --> 00:30:39,162
You know, we get to go answer
the big questions

624
00:30:39,162 --> 00:30:41,802
and that's what we consider fun,

625
00:30:41,868 --> 00:30:47,127
but boy, are we ever dependent
on the ingenuity of the rocket engineers,

626
00:30:47,175 --> 00:30:49,549
and what an amazing job they do.

627
00:30:49,605 --> 00:30:51,936
JM: I have to interject this.

628
00:30:51,966 --> 00:30:54,748
I met a lady, who was an engineer,

629
00:30:54,788 --> 00:30:57,013
and she ended up writing
a book for children

630
00:30:57,013 --> 00:30:59,274
about engineers, what do engineers do,

631
00:30:59,321 --> 00:31:02,465
because her own 5-year-old
was looking at, like,

632
00:31:02,503 --> 00:31:04,636
a shuttle launch, or something, and said,

633
00:31:04,665 --> 00:31:07,814
"Oh, wow! Look what scientists get to do"

634
00:31:07,899 --> 00:31:10,319
and she goes "and engineers".

635
00:31:10,417 --> 00:31:13,172
"Engineers are the ones
who make this actually happen"

636
00:31:13,212 --> 00:31:15,485
so, yeah, is very important.

637
00:31:15,564 --> 00:31:17,983
We don't have an engineer
on the panel right now.

638
00:31:18,021 --> 00:31:20,341
We got two scientists...
well, three scientists.

639
00:31:20,417 --> 00:31:22,978
But I don't do space stuff.

640
00:31:23,256 --> 00:31:26,385
Chris, I'd like you to speak quickly
about this thing.

641
00:31:26,758 --> 00:31:29,389
We send… well, we've had a few

642
00:31:29,447 --> 00:31:31,871
where things have tried to give up,

643
00:31:31,938 --> 00:31:34,310
but then sort of revived themselves,

644
00:31:34,330 --> 00:31:37,105
they're able to work,
but for the most part,

645
00:31:37,135 --> 00:31:38,927
we send these things out,

646
00:31:38,984 --> 00:31:41,166
and they have an expected lifespan.

647
00:31:41,404 --> 00:31:44,461
But most of the time they seem
to be exceeding that lifespan.

648
00:31:45,299 --> 00:31:47,134
If you could speak on that,

649
00:31:47,163 --> 00:31:50,732
and what we can do,
once we've gotten lucky.

650
00:31:51,246 --> 00:31:54,207
CI: And that's natural and good engineering.

651
00:31:54,283 --> 00:31:57,240
Of course, engineers like to have big margins,

652
00:31:57,297 --> 00:31:59,375
and those margins are not always…

653
00:31:59,433 --> 00:32:02,221
For a bridge, or anything,
it's a factor of two or three.

654
00:32:02,251 --> 00:32:05,605
I think in space sometimes it's even more,
like an order of magnitude.

655
00:32:05,624 --> 00:32:08,024
So, obviously the twin rovers

656
00:32:08,072 --> 00:32:10,772
poor Steve talking about Mars time,

657
00:32:10,809 --> 00:32:13,530
poor Steve Squires has been
living Mars time for a decade,

658
00:32:13,587 --> 00:32:16,327
and he was only supposed
to do that for three months.

659
00:32:16,754 --> 00:32:19,407
Because the second
of his rovers is still working.

660
00:32:19,535 --> 00:32:22,332
There is another wonderful example.

661
00:32:22,516 --> 00:32:27,801
The Pioneers and the Voyagers
now leaving our messages in a bottle,

662
00:32:27,858 --> 00:32:29,821
tossed into the outer solar system.

663
00:32:29,897 --> 00:32:31,592
They're putting out.

664
00:32:31,670 --> 00:32:34,170
Their plans are reduced to a fraction

665
00:32:34,170 --> 00:32:36,249
of a Watt of transmitted energy,

666
00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:39,231
but we've got big enough
telescopes like Arecibo

667
00:32:39,317 --> 00:32:41,714
to detect that at a distance
of billions of miles.

668
00:32:41,736 --> 00:32:44,954
These again, Ed Stone, whose at JPL,

669
00:32:45,012 --> 00:32:50,451
he's into his 80s, I think,
and these missions

670
00:32:50,451 --> 00:32:53,651
are outlasting all of their investigators,
some of them.

671
00:32:53,730 --> 00:32:55,177
And that's fine,

672
00:32:55,234 --> 00:32:58,474
because they're still returning
useful data, and it's great.

673
00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:01,686
The problem, of course, is the project,

674
00:33:01,686 --> 00:33:03,764
and the money, and the funding

675
00:33:03,802 --> 00:33:05,897
sort of implies an ending point,

676
00:33:05,897 --> 00:33:09,015
and so it's horrible
when you face the prospect

677
00:33:09,015 --> 00:33:10,651
of having to switch something off

678
00:33:10,698 --> 00:33:13,621
that's still working,
or just not look at the data,

679
00:33:13,698 --> 00:33:15,840
or not run the instruments anymore.

680
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,650
And those are real situations

681
00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:19,914
because, obviously,
you can't start new things

682
00:33:19,943 --> 00:33:22,429
unless you stop doing
some of your old things.

683
00:33:25,197 --> 00:33:27,859
JM: I'm going to move back.
Thank you for that, Chris.

684
00:33:27,859 --> 00:33:30,701
I'm going to move back
over to Nick about…

685
00:33:31,533 --> 00:33:35,023
So what will you do when you're
past the one-year mark?

686
00:33:35,232 --> 00:33:37,162
Will it depend on funding?

687
00:33:37,334 --> 00:33:40,189
Will you still maintain

688
00:33:40,189 --> 00:33:43,722
the communications
with the rovers on the surface,

689
00:33:43,789 --> 00:33:48,879
or pair up with ESA
for future projects, or what?

690
00:33:49,933 --> 00:33:53,779
NS: The one thing we know for sure
after our first year,

691
00:33:53,817 --> 00:33:58,544
is that MAVEN will be kept
alive and operating

692
00:33:58,630 --> 00:34:01,570
to serve as a relay for the rovers

693
00:34:01,608 --> 00:34:03,953
for absolutely as long as possible.

694
00:34:04,095 --> 00:34:06,774
And obviously, the current rovers,

695
00:34:06,869 --> 00:34:11,536
and there's another one
arriving in Mars 2020,

696
00:34:11,707 --> 00:34:14,942
but whether or not MAVEN
is also doing science

697
00:34:14,990 --> 00:34:16,923
remains to be seen

698
00:34:17,066 --> 00:34:21,072
Every NASA mission, whether it's
the Hubble Space Telescope

699
00:34:21,072 --> 00:34:24,210
or the rovers, after 90 days,

700
00:34:24,267 --> 00:34:27,046
goes through a very careful process

701
00:34:27,093 --> 00:34:29,462
where the team says,
if you give us more money,

702
00:34:29,462 --> 00:34:31,812
here's the science that we can do.

703
00:34:31,812 --> 00:34:35,169
And so, they're thoughtful decisions,

704
00:34:35,382 --> 00:34:41,134
albeit with a tight pocketbook

705
00:34:41,488 --> 00:34:45,063
And so, we'll go through that process
called "Senior Review"

706
00:34:45,063 --> 00:34:47,983
probably a handful of months
before the end of our first year

707
00:34:47,983 --> 00:34:50,161
and we'll make the case saying,

708
00:34:50,237 --> 00:34:53,237
if you allow us to keep
making measurements

709
00:34:53,275 --> 00:34:55,671
here's the science that we can accomplish

710
00:34:55,934 --> 00:34:57,975
It's a fabulous spacecraft.

711
00:34:58,045 --> 00:35:00,487
It's got excellent instrumentation on it,

712
00:35:00,517 --> 00:35:02,871
and I'm sure we'll make a very good case,

713
00:35:02,911 --> 00:35:07,844
but it'll be up to a bunch of people
making these difficult choices.

714
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:11,106
JM: How many instruments are on MAVEN?

715
00:35:11,154 --> 00:35:14,564
NS: You know, the truth is,
I can't remember if it's eight or nine,

716
00:35:14,611 --> 00:35:16,342
but it's a bunch

717
00:35:16,342 --> 00:35:22,137
and some of them are designed
for measuring the waves and the fields.

718
00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:24,940
Some of them are designed
for the charged particles.

719
00:35:24,969 --> 00:35:26,463
Some for the neutral particles

720
00:35:26,511 --> 00:35:29,114
We're for photons, and some have two parts

721
00:35:29,114 --> 00:35:32,267
and some have three,
and so that's why I can't quite keep track.

722
00:35:32,685 --> 00:35:35,263
Basically, we have enough instruments on,

723
00:35:35,377 --> 00:35:39,281
that an atom and molecule
can't get away from Mars

724
00:35:39,339 --> 00:35:42,455
without us having a handle
on that process.

725
00:35:42,527 --> 00:35:44,157
JM: We've noticed that.

726
00:35:44,237 --> 00:35:48,941
Chris, so, reading your book, 
I got the sense,

727
00:35:49,071 --> 00:35:51,164
the average seems to be a dozen.

728
00:35:51,243 --> 00:35:54,834
There's at least a dozen
on every probe we send out.

729
00:35:55,054 --> 00:35:57,630
Would you say that's true?
Did I get that right?

730
00:35:57,953 --> 00:36:03,320
CI: Yeah, a lot of mass emissions now
are likely Swiss army knives.

731
00:36:03,541 --> 00:36:08,088
They have large numbers
of instrument teams combining

732
00:36:08,223 --> 00:36:10,175
and Cassini is a classic example

733
00:36:10,177 --> 00:36:12,402
that these are
multi-billion dollar missions.

734
00:36:12,462 --> 00:36:15,284
Hubble is an example,
great space observatories,

735
00:36:15,284 --> 00:36:18,022
but NASA's also had enormous success

736
00:36:18,022 --> 00:36:21,079
with more specialized
single purpose missions.

737
00:36:21,513 --> 00:36:23,755
My favorite two examples, of course,

738
00:36:23,755 --> 00:36:27,466
are Keplar, as it's PI, Bill Burouki,
famously said,

739
00:36:27,770 --> 00:36:30,665
"it's the most boring mission
you could possibly imagine".

740
00:36:30,837 --> 00:36:33,516
It's designed to take a picture
of the same piece of sky,

741
00:36:33,516 --> 00:36:35,236
every six minutes, for years,

742
00:36:35,236 --> 00:36:36,710
and that's all it does.

743
00:36:36,777 --> 00:36:38,132
It's how dull?

744
00:36:38,211 --> 00:36:41,243
And then WMAT,
a completely different concept.

745
00:36:41,303 --> 00:36:44,129
A sort of microwave satellite
looking at the early universe

746
00:36:44,129 --> 00:36:46,324
also just doing a very simple thing,

747
00:36:46,324 --> 00:36:49,805
just scanning the sky,
over and over and over again,

748
00:36:49,805 --> 00:36:53,055
drilling down in the systematic
and random errors

749
00:36:53,055 --> 00:36:54,838
to make a microwave map,

750
00:36:54,838 --> 00:36:57,410
and that's all it can do
but it's incredible.

751
00:36:57,505 --> 00:36:59,208
Those two missions hit,

752
00:36:59,208 --> 00:37:02,195
which cost a fraction of a billion dollars,

753
00:37:02,195 --> 00:37:05,732
more like, 100 million, say,
which is of course not cheap.

754
00:37:05,943 --> 00:37:08,631
They do one thing exquisitely well.

755
00:37:08,682 --> 00:37:12,134
So there's sort of two ways to go
with all of these missions

756
00:37:12,991 --> 00:37:16,382
JM: Now MAVEN,
there were a lot of questions

757
00:37:16,582 --> 00:37:22,190
about cost in the press conference
yesterday.

758
00:37:22,289 --> 00:37:25,016
Do you remember some
of those numbers, Nick?

759
00:37:25,175 --> 00:37:29,052
NS: No, and I missed the last part
of this press conference.

760
00:37:30,576 --> 00:37:35,212
Scientists you'll learn remember numbers 
to a factor of two, or so.

761
00:37:36,019 --> 00:37:38,930
But we have, of course, teams of people.

762
00:37:39,101 --> 00:37:41,945
The engineers are
a little more precise in that.

763
00:37:42,021 --> 00:37:44,853
And the budgeteers more precise still.

764
00:37:45,203 --> 00:37:52,041
All I know is that MAVEN has not
raised the alarms of cost overruns.

765
00:37:52,534 --> 00:37:56,293
We have a principle investigator
who's made some hard choices,

766
00:37:56,493 --> 00:37:58,053
especially early on

767
00:37:58,110 --> 00:38:01,876
about how we're going
to keep this mission from over-running.

768
00:38:02,072 --> 00:38:06,739
This is a real… the mark of what
are called "PI-led missions"

769
00:38:06,853 --> 00:38:09,106
Principle Investigator Led Missions,

770
00:38:09,106 --> 00:38:11,308
where it's really on one person's plate

771
00:38:11,308 --> 00:38:14,031
to make sure that
this is going to perform,

772
00:38:14,031 --> 00:38:16,818
do the science, and not overrun in cost.

773
00:38:17,215 --> 00:38:19,751
So the MAVEN definitely goes
in the plus column

774
00:38:19,751 --> 00:38:23,122
and being in the university setting

775
00:38:23,122 --> 00:38:25,297
is one of the ways
that we've really been able

776
00:38:25,297 --> 00:38:26,791
to keep the cost down,

777
00:38:26,791 --> 00:38:29,177
and we sure wish that
more opportunities like this

778
00:38:29,215 --> 00:38:30,949
would be coming down the pike

779
00:38:31,225 --> 00:38:33,410
CI: These are hard tradeoffs too,

780
00:38:33,410 --> 00:38:35,784
because sometimes an idea comes along

781
00:38:35,784 --> 00:38:38,309
that you really want to add in
to your instruments

782
00:38:38,309 --> 00:38:40,175
so it gives you a new capability,

783
00:38:40,175 --> 00:38:42,510
and you've got to fit it
under that cost curve.

784
00:38:42,567 --> 00:38:44,245
The famous example I like,

785
00:38:44,295 --> 00:38:48,215
is that the Vikings were not
originally designed with cameras.

786
00:38:48,468 --> 00:38:51,246
And Carl Sagan argued, he said

787
00:38:51,294 --> 00:38:53,033
"We're going to look really foolish

788
00:38:53,033 --> 00:38:54,667
"if there are polar bears on Mars

789
00:38:54,677 --> 00:38:57,255
"and we didn't have a camera
to take pictures of them".

790
00:38:57,255 --> 00:38:59,792
He was joking, but his point was taken,

791
00:38:59,830 --> 00:39:02,160
and so the Vikings had cameras,

792
00:39:02,217 --> 00:39:05,109
and it's the evocative image
of the surface of Mars

793
00:39:05,185 --> 00:39:07,178
that caught everyone's attention.

794
00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:09,942
And then fast-forward to Curiosity,

795
00:39:09,942 --> 00:39:12,860
and this was unfortunately a failed attempt.

796
00:39:13,015 --> 00:39:14,971
James Cameron was part of that project,

797
00:39:14,971 --> 00:39:16,990
and he was on the verge of having a design

798
00:39:16,990 --> 00:39:20,472
for an HD video camera
to be part of Curiosity.

799
00:39:20,795 --> 00:39:22,298
It just couldn't make it under the wire

800
00:39:22,298 --> 00:39:26,882
of getting all specified and locked down
before the launch,

801
00:39:26,901 --> 00:39:30,690
so Curiosity did not have
the James Cameron connection.

802
00:39:30,872 --> 00:39:34,594
But keeping these possibilities in play
is really important,

803
00:39:34,712 --> 00:39:36,712
even if it's a tough budget decision.

804
00:39:36,836 --> 00:39:38,609
NS: So, MAVEN by the way,

805
00:39:38,609 --> 00:39:41,672
does not have
a visible light camera on it.

806
00:39:42,034 --> 00:39:44,982
When you think about
the technology that's there

807
00:39:45,049 --> 00:39:48,116
for Mars reconnaissance orbiter,

808
00:39:48,145 --> 00:39:50,584
every camera has to be better
than the one before.

809
00:39:50,584 --> 00:39:53,581
With all these other instruments
that we have onboard,

810
00:39:53,609 --> 00:39:55,694
we couldn't take an even better camera.

811
00:39:55,732 --> 00:39:57,459
But we'll be sending back

812
00:39:57,497 --> 00:40:00,940
some pretty cool images and movies

813
00:40:00,979 --> 00:40:03,065
of the planets at the ultraviolet,

814
00:40:03,123 --> 00:40:05,676
and that'll be a new contribution.

815
00:40:05,753 --> 00:40:10,148
Not so many megapixels though,
not scientifically important.

816
00:40:10,491 --> 00:40:13,036
JM: I'm actually wearing,
I'll have to come up closer.

817
00:40:13,045 --> 00:40:14,610
I'm actually wearing a necklace

818
00:40:14,610 --> 00:40:16,545
by this gal whose fascinated with Mars

819
00:40:16,545 --> 00:40:19,870
and this is Curiosity's
first photo on Mars.

820
00:40:20,174 --> 00:40:24,236
So, she's taken iconic images
that have been taken on Mars

821
00:40:24,283 --> 00:40:27,110
by Viking and all that
she's then turned into jewelry,

822
00:40:27,144 --> 00:40:30,041
and I love wearing them because
they are conversation pieces.

823
00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:34,852
So my little contribution
to spreading the excitement

824
00:40:34,896 --> 00:40:38,728
of space exploration to the rest of the world.

825
00:40:41,337 --> 00:40:44,610
Let me just… There was a question
I wanted to ask.

826
00:40:45,744 --> 00:40:49,414
Chris, is there anything else
you'd like to add to this conversation

827
00:40:49,518 --> 00:40:55,365
of the larger picture
of space exploration?

828
00:40:55,772 --> 00:40:58,168
CI: Well, I'll just make a guess
for the future,

829
00:40:58,168 --> 00:41:01,562
which is that we're at a sort
of interesting transition point

830
00:41:01,619 --> 00:41:05,214
in space exploration
of the solar system or beyond

831
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:07,304
or even of space astronomy,

832
00:41:07,342 --> 00:41:12,937
where we see this nascent private
space industry, which is emerging.

833
00:41:12,962 --> 00:41:16,460
Just as well, since America can't get
astronauts up into orbit, anyway.

834
00:41:16,517 --> 00:41:18,045
We depend on the Russians,

835
00:41:18,064 --> 00:41:20,254
and now we're going to depend
on the private sector.

836
00:41:20,254 --> 00:41:22,152
I think that's going to start playing out

837
00:41:22,152 --> 00:41:24,109
in the business we've been talked about.

838
00:41:24,109 --> 00:41:27,487
Remember there are
a thousand billionaires on the Earth,

839
00:41:27,487 --> 00:41:32,254
and any one of them could fund
a really cool planetary probe.

840
00:41:32,378 --> 00:41:35,747
So if NASA gets stock on sending
that Hydrobot to Europa,

841
00:41:35,747 --> 00:41:39,899
or going back to Titan
with the dirigible technology,

842
00:41:39,899 --> 00:41:43,199
I think some billionaires might step in,

843
00:41:43,268 --> 00:41:46,094
and I think the whole game
is going to get more interesting.

844
00:41:46,094 --> 00:41:47,676
It's kind of limiting

845
00:41:47,685 --> 00:41:49,948
when only a couple
of governments are doing it

846
00:41:49,967 --> 00:41:52,144
and the governments
get shutdown occasionally,

847
00:41:52,144 --> 00:41:53,950
and they have tough budget
choices and so on.

848
00:41:53,950 --> 00:41:56,268
I think it will be more of a wild west,

849
00:41:56,268 --> 00:41:59,031
but there's going to be some
really cool things that happen

850
00:41:59,031 --> 00:42:01,567
when the private sector and entrepreneurs

851
00:42:01,567 --> 00:42:03,593
actually start doing this stuff.

852
00:42:04,222 --> 00:42:05,911
JM: So, here's a question.

853
00:42:05,997 --> 00:42:10,430
Any idea how many project ideas
are out there,

854
00:42:10,430 --> 00:42:13,182
and what percent actually happen?

855
00:42:15,525 --> 00:42:17,305
NS: It's a small fraction.

856
00:42:17,353 --> 00:42:22,999
Every time NASA has an announcement
of opportunity with open categories,

857
00:42:23,046 --> 00:42:25,792
there tend to be dozens of missions

858
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,972
for every one or two that are selected.

859
00:42:29,048 --> 00:42:32,238
And it's a different set of dozens
for every opportunity.

860
00:42:32,343 --> 00:42:35,164
So, pretty soon, that's going to be

861
00:42:35,231 --> 00:42:38,063
hundreds of ideas that we're not doing.

862
00:42:38,139 --> 00:42:41,232
And I can't promise that
they're all good or feasible

863
00:42:41,232 --> 00:42:43,275
with the current technology,

864
00:42:43,304 --> 00:42:48,625
but far more good and practical missions
are not chosen

865
00:42:49,089 --> 00:42:52,332
because a nation hasn't found
the will to fund it.

866
00:42:54,161 --> 00:42:56,812
CI: I agree. I mean, in some competitions

867
00:42:56,860 --> 00:42:59,970
you go down from 100 to 25 to 4 to 1,

868
00:42:59,970 --> 00:43:02,805
and the engineering,
we've talked about the engineering,

869
00:43:02,805 --> 00:43:05,977
which is exquisite, and these
are technically feasible.

870
00:43:06,034 --> 00:43:09,446
That almost never is the issue
of why they weren't chosen.

871
00:43:10,341 --> 00:43:13,131
So, it really is more the will

872
00:43:13,197 --> 00:43:15,312
the money, the priorities and so on,

873
00:43:15,341 --> 00:43:17,712
which is why I think 
if there are more players

874
00:43:17,712 --> 00:43:20,721
some of these things
that are sitting there on the shelf,

875
00:43:20,721 --> 00:43:22,602
NASA has the designs on the shelf,

876
00:43:22,602 --> 00:43:24,307
will actually happen.

877
00:43:24,383 --> 00:43:28,342
NS: Let me change from the billionaires

878
00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:33,414
that Chris talks about
to the billion kids on the planet,

879
00:43:33,414 --> 00:43:38,317
almost all of whom are excited about space.

880
00:43:39,345 --> 00:43:44,506
And space is really the gateway,

881
00:43:44,887 --> 00:43:48,330
I think the best gateway
to stem education.

882
00:43:49,397 --> 00:43:52,369
It's really important that we keep
this space program going.

883
00:43:52,436 --> 00:43:54,320
It's now an international effort,

884
00:43:54,358 --> 00:43:58,032
so many nations participating to have this

885
00:43:58,251 --> 00:44:01,395
really excite the next generation.

886
00:44:02,252 --> 00:44:05,932
And before the viewers get discouraged 
about the state of affairs

887
00:44:05,961 --> 00:44:08,260
where we can't do
everything that we want to,

888
00:44:08,307 --> 00:44:11,644
I want everybody to realize that everybody
can play a part in this.

889
00:44:12,111 --> 00:44:14,931
And I think spreading the word about

890
00:44:14,931 --> 00:44:19,947
what NASA's big handful
of operating missions are doing,

891
00:44:20,062 --> 00:44:23,090
if you have access to…

892
00:44:23,575 --> 00:44:27,229
If you are comfortable go out
and volunteer in a classroom.

893
00:44:27,524 --> 00:44:30,676
Go make sure your taxi driver

894
00:44:30,676 --> 00:44:33,933
or your waiter or waitress

895
00:44:34,467 --> 00:44:37,084
know what's going on in space.

896
00:44:37,132 --> 00:44:39,332
Make this part of everyday conversation

897
00:44:39,332 --> 00:44:41,095
so people want to know what's next.

898
00:44:41,095 --> 00:44:42,600
What are we doing?

899
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,140
Because in the big picture
of the federal budget,

900
00:44:45,188 --> 00:44:48,210
this is not an expensive proposition
that we're talking about.

901
00:44:48,255 --> 00:44:50,604
We just need to raise everybody's awareness

902
00:44:50,604 --> 00:44:52,987
that this is affordable and exciting

903
00:44:52,987 --> 00:44:55,191
and it paves the way for the next generation.

904
00:44:55,315 --> 00:44:58,083
JM: So actually, you guys
will be happy to hear

905
00:44:58,083 --> 00:45:01,038
that I have feedback from my twitter feed

906
00:45:01,038 --> 00:45:03,926
and from my Google+ that we have
a couple classrooms

907
00:45:03,926 --> 00:45:05,745
watching us right now.

908
00:45:06,041 --> 00:45:09,174
I'm so happy that teachers
saw this and said,

909
00:45:09,174 --> 00:45:11,509
let's just share about this.

910
00:45:12,537 --> 00:45:15,182
The other thing… I do remember a question,

911
00:45:15,820 --> 00:45:17,975
and to me the answer seems obvious,

912
00:45:17,975 --> 00:45:21,271
but here's a question someone
on my twitter feed asked yesterday.

913
00:45:21,271 --> 00:45:24,509
"So why are we going back to Mars?

914
00:45:24,594 --> 00:45:29,582
"Why not set our sights on an already
predetermined Earth-like planet

915
00:45:29,620 --> 00:45:32,284
"that is way out there, an exoplanet?"

916
00:45:32,303 --> 00:45:33,760
So why Mars?

917
00:45:35,341 --> 00:45:38,076
NS: I'll do the "Why Mars?" again,

918
00:45:38,076 --> 00:45:43,141
and then I'll let Chris talk
about the next exoplanet.

919
00:45:43,570 --> 00:45:45,525
We're doing Mars again because

920
00:45:45,525 --> 00:45:48,980
what MAVEN is doing there
has never been done before.

921
00:45:49,037 --> 00:45:50,914
There's never been a mission

922
00:45:50,914 --> 00:45:53,847
that's basically looking at
where the atmosphere goes.

923
00:45:54,380 --> 00:45:56,775
We've sent a large number of missions

924
00:45:56,775 --> 00:45:59,988
that figured out that there was
a greater atmosphere in the past,

925
00:46:00,015 --> 00:46:03,499
but this is just about the biggest
mystery on Mars, nowadays.

926
00:46:03,499 --> 00:46:05,462
Where did the atmosphere go?

927
00:46:05,462 --> 00:46:07,731
And none of the operating
missions can do that.

928
00:46:07,731 --> 00:46:09,318
We've got to go back.

929
00:46:09,366 --> 00:46:12,296
CI: And I would also,
just to echo and Segway,

930
00:46:12,296 --> 00:46:15,799
I would say that there's so much
still to learn on Mars,

931
00:46:15,799 --> 00:46:19,278
and Mars is indeed potentially
a habitable planet under the surface,

932
00:46:19,354 --> 00:46:21,302
so we need to figure that out.

933
00:46:21,397 --> 00:46:23,835
And we will always learn so much more

934
00:46:23,835 --> 00:46:25,848
about a planet in the solar system,

935
00:46:25,848 --> 00:46:28,797
than any exoplanet, however nearby.

936
00:46:29,168 --> 00:46:31,208
It's just there's no comparison.

937
00:46:31,265 --> 00:46:36,783
However, what happens to a planet,
because planets evolve and change

938
00:46:36,783 --> 00:46:38,759
and Mars is the great example

939
00:46:38,759 --> 00:46:41,048
is going to be true elsewhere too.

940
00:46:41,086 --> 00:46:43,670
And so, as we start looking at our bodycount

941
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:45,555
of habitable and Earth-like planets

942
00:46:45,555 --> 00:46:47,758
from Kepler and other missions,

943
00:46:47,796 --> 00:46:49,556
the context for understanding them

944
00:46:49,556 --> 00:46:52,630
when we have very little data,
really we just have a size or a mass,

945
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:54,847
and almost no other information

946
00:46:54,847 --> 00:46:58,085
our context for understanding them
is still the solar system,

947
00:46:58,132 --> 00:47:01,290
is still the terrestrial planets,
much closer to us

948
00:47:01,566 --> 00:47:04,352
NS: We must develop the capability

949
00:47:04,352 --> 00:47:07,099
to characterize those planets in greater detail.

950
00:47:07,175 --> 00:47:09,521
James Webb's space telescope
will start to do that,

951
00:47:09,521 --> 00:47:12,770
but it's a big technological challenge.

952
00:47:12,770 --> 00:47:16,800
And, lot's of our favorite
engineers and designers

953
00:47:16,847 --> 00:47:18,248
are working on it,

954
00:47:18,248 --> 00:47:20,963
but at present it's a pretty
expensive proposition.

955
00:47:20,997 --> 00:47:25,777
It's actually considerably cheaper
to continue learning more

956
00:47:25,872 --> 00:47:28,134
within our own solar system

957
00:47:28,134 --> 00:47:30,156
than it is to learn in great detail

958
00:47:30,156 --> 00:47:34,287
about the wealth of worlds
that we now know are out there.

959
00:47:36,041 --> 00:47:41,207
JM: So, we've been talking,
a little over 45 minutes.

960
00:47:41,426 --> 00:47:44,828
I would like to give both of you
an opportunity

961
00:47:44,828 --> 00:47:46,554
to express anything else

962
00:47:46,563 --> 00:47:48,666
you'd like to express to our audience

963
00:47:48,666 --> 00:47:51,336
or maybe something
I completely forgot to ask,

964
00:47:51,355 --> 00:47:52,909
and then we will wrap things up.

965
00:47:52,909 --> 00:47:54,622
So why don't we start with Nick?

966
00:47:54,641 --> 00:47:56,709
NS: No, no, go to Chris
while I'm trying to…

967
00:47:56,709 --> 00:47:58,306
JM: Go to Chris.

968
00:47:58,916 --> 00:48:01,825
CI: Well, I just want to echo something

969
00:48:01,825 --> 00:48:05,297
that we've touched on a few times,
which is, it feels like

970
00:48:05,297 --> 00:48:09,275
solar system exploration,
study of planets nearby,

971
00:48:09,275 --> 00:48:10,733
is a mature subject

972
00:48:10,733 --> 00:48:13,747
that we've learned most
of what we might want to learn,

973
00:48:13,747 --> 00:48:15,627
and that just simply isn't the case.

974
00:48:15,627 --> 00:48:17,533
Even with our close neighbour Mars,

975
00:48:17,533 --> 00:48:19,970
there're just a ton
of questions and mysteries.

976
00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:21,697
And when we get to all those others,

977
00:48:21,697 --> 00:48:23,562
the best guest is there're probably

978
00:48:23,562 --> 00:48:25,741
a dozen habitable spots
in the solar system,

979
00:48:25,741 --> 00:48:27,879
mostly in the outer solar sysem.

980
00:48:27,879 --> 00:48:29,980
And we're almost
completely ignorant of those.

981
00:48:29,980 --> 00:48:32,600
And so when it comes to going
to Titan or Europa

982
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,468
or these really fascinating destinations,

983
00:48:35,468 --> 00:48:38,607
our level of ignorance
is still almost complete.

984
00:48:38,722 --> 00:48:42,470
So it's still early days, actually,
for solar system exploration,

985
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:45,233
and especially in the context of biology,

986
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:48,011
and where we might find it
in the universe.

987
00:48:49,935 --> 00:48:53,448
NS: And if I could just step back
for a broad perspective,

988
00:48:53,743 --> 00:48:55,623
Carl Sagan said,

989
00:48:55,814 --> 00:48:57,952
"There's one generation that gets

990
00:48:57,952 --> 00:49:00,818
"to experience this transition of planets

991
00:49:00,818 --> 00:49:03,630
"as points of light,
to worlds in their own right".

992
00:49:03,849 --> 00:49:07,357
And men are ever getting a close look

993
00:49:07,357 --> 00:49:11,148
at these worlds with the latest
generation of spacecraft.

994
00:49:11,148 --> 00:49:13,893
My brother's a political scientist,

995
00:49:13,893 --> 00:49:16,020
and he once said to me that

996
00:49:16,020 --> 00:49:19,222
"Everything that I said
is going to be forgotten

997
00:49:19,222 --> 00:49:20,984
"in decades or 100 years,

998
00:49:20,984 --> 00:49:25,750
"but this transition of humans
becoming spacefaring,

999
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:29,357
"this is going to be remembered
for 1000 years."

1000
00:49:29,595 --> 00:49:31,819
People will talk about this age,

1001
00:49:31,847 --> 00:49:34,111
and so for all of us

1002
00:49:34,111 --> 00:49:38,139
to appreciate this incredible time
that we live in,

1003
00:49:38,139 --> 00:49:41,115
and this opportunity
that we are given to participate.

1004
00:49:42,210 --> 00:49:43,754
Get everybody onboard.

1005
00:49:43,783 --> 00:49:45,346
Spread the word.

1006
00:49:45,346 --> 00:49:48,854
This is a real halmark of the age

1007
00:49:48,883 --> 00:49:51,122
that we have the privilege of living in.

1008
00:49:51,304 --> 00:49:54,003
JM: That's amazing. My final question:

1009
00:49:54,851 --> 00:49:57,497
When are we sending humans to Mars?

1010
00:49:58,097 --> 00:50:02,603
NS: When I was growing up
I said I wanted to go to Mars

1011
00:50:02,679 --> 00:50:04,693
and raise chickens to find out

1012
00:50:04,750 --> 00:50:07,222
if they would grow larger in low-gravity.

1013
00:50:08,089 --> 00:50:12,525
It's become clear to me
that I won't have that opportunity.

1014
00:50:12,659 --> 00:50:17,366
I would love it, if one of my kids
had that chance.

1015
00:50:17,366 --> 00:50:20,397
I sure hope it doesn't go down
to the generation beyond that.

1016
00:50:20,721 --> 00:50:23,648
It's sometimes said that it's too expensive

1017
00:50:23,648 --> 00:50:25,500
to send humans to Mars,

1018
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:28,675
but our nation has
apparently found the will

1019
00:50:28,675 --> 00:50:31,013
to spend that much money
on other projects

1020
00:50:31,013 --> 00:50:34,159
that I think, will not be remembered
in a thousand years,

1021
00:50:34,159 --> 00:50:39,090
and I would love for this effort
to change the focus of our nation,

1022
00:50:39,090 --> 00:50:41,176
and even the efforts of the world

1023
00:50:41,176 --> 00:50:42,973
to make that next grand step

1024
00:50:42,973 --> 00:50:45,937
because I think that it is human destiny.

1025
00:50:46,022 --> 00:50:50,267
Robots lead the way, but humans
can and must follow.

1026
00:50:50,691 --> 00:50:54,613
CI: And to answer your question directly
we're talking 20+ years.

1027
00:50:54,889 --> 00:50:56,887
And then again I think the private sector

1028
00:50:56,896 --> 00:50:59,691
is already starting to step up
and make ideas.

1029
00:50:59,758 --> 00:51:02,136
For instance,
there's a well-publisized idea

1030
00:51:02,136 --> 00:51:04,817
for a one-way trip,
which'd obviously save some money.

1031
00:51:04,817 --> 00:51:06,701
NASA first was outed on having

1032
00:51:06,701 --> 00:51:09,267
a very similar idea
sitting on their shelf,

1033
00:51:09,267 --> 00:51:11,865
but it's not good PR for NASA

1034
00:51:12,751 --> 00:51:15,149
to send astronauts of to die on a…

1035
00:51:15,245 --> 00:51:18,234
NS: Yeah, I actually think that the space frontier

1036
00:51:18,311 --> 00:51:20,585
will be conquered by humans,

1037
00:51:20,633 --> 00:51:23,379
when humans are allowed
to take the same kinds of risks

1038
00:51:23,426 --> 00:51:27,248
that they took when moving
to Colorado and California,

1039
00:51:27,248 --> 00:51:29,110
when coming to the American west.

1040
00:51:29,110 --> 00:51:30,914
Individuals took risks.

1041
00:51:30,914 --> 00:51:32,884
Many of them lost their lives doing it

1042
00:51:32,884 --> 00:51:36,962
but the way that they opened
for the rest of us

1043
00:51:37,362 --> 00:51:39,468
we'll remember forever.

1044
00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,534
I think it's like Chris says.

1045
00:51:41,563 --> 00:51:44,531
It's going to be the private sector
and individuals taking risks

1046
00:51:44,531 --> 00:51:47,607
that will allow us to cross that frontier.

1047
00:51:47,725 --> 00:51:51,214
IC: And if you want to evoke
the multi-generational future,

1048
00:51:51,214 --> 00:51:54,801
I recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's
<i>Mars</i> trilogy,

1049
00:51:55,077 --> 00:51:56,727
<i>Mars: Red, Green, and Blue</i>.

1050
00:51:56,737 --> 00:52:00,436
Amazing evocations,
not just of people on Mars,

1051
00:52:00,436 --> 00:52:03,287
but of the geology
and the atmosphere, and so on.

1052
00:52:03,344 --> 00:52:04,998
They are mesmerizing books.

1053
00:52:05,055 --> 00:52:07,441
JM: Thanks for the book recommendation

1054
00:52:07,441 --> 00:52:10,057
because that's one of my platforms.

1055
00:52:10,057 --> 00:52:12,239
I love to get people to read.

1056
00:52:13,048 --> 00:52:16,909
Thank you gentlemen for your input today.

1057
00:52:17,443 --> 00:52:19,660
And thanks to the MAVEN team.

1058
00:52:19,698 --> 00:52:22,291
We will wait for the anticipated launch.

1059
00:52:22,367 --> 00:52:24,211
But thank you guys for a project

1060
00:52:24,211 --> 00:52:27,092
that's on budget, or under budget,

1061
00:52:27,111 --> 00:52:28,889
and on time, or under time,

1062
00:52:28,889 --> 00:52:31,223
and you guys are just meeting
all these hallmarks

1063
00:52:31,223 --> 00:52:33,196
and making people happy.

1064
00:52:33,282 --> 00:52:35,261
They'll want to hire you again

1065
00:52:35,366 --> 00:52:38,233
NS: That's right. And let's go answer
some more big questions.

1066
00:52:38,909 --> 00:52:40,675
JM: Well, thank you very much,

1067
00:52:40,694 --> 00:52:43,070
all of you out there
in the audience for joining us

1068
00:52:43,070 --> 00:52:46,926
for this very enlightening
discussion about MAVEN.

1069
00:52:47,068 --> 00:52:50,982
And don't forget, we're looking out
towards November 14th

1070
00:52:51,039 --> 00:52:53,988
for Chris Hatfield to join us.

1071
00:52:54,074 --> 00:52:56,487
So, if you didn't hear,
his book is out today.

1072
00:52:56,516 --> 00:52:58,754
So, if you want to pick that up
and join us here

1073
00:52:58,783 --> 00:53:02,135
November 14th at noon
for a Scientific American chat with Chris.

1074
00:53:02,211 --> 00:53:04,716
We'll get more of the human side
of space travel,

1075
00:53:04,716 --> 00:53:06,713
and today, of course,
we were just talking

1076
00:53:06,713 --> 00:53:09,239
about unmanned, or robotic, space travel.

1077
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,228
So, thank you, Chris, and thank you, Nick

1078
00:53:12,932 --> 00:53:14,507
NS: So long, everybody.

1079
00:53:15,250 --> 00:53:16,460
CI: Bye.