0:00:01.855,0:00:05.809
JM: Hi everybody! This is Joanne Manaster,[br]a blogger with Scientific American
0:00:05.885,0:00:09.908
and I'd like you to welcome to this[br]very special Scientific American chat
0:00:10.320,0:00:12.653
that we are airing on the heels
0:00:12.653,0:00:15.916
of NASA's press conference yesterday
0:00:15.973,0:00:22.101
about NASA's MAVEN space orbiter[br]that is expected to launch
0:00:22.168,0:00:25.155
mid-November to head to Mars
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to look at the non-existent[br]atmosphere of Mars
0:00:29.136,0:00:31.317
and wonder, where did it go?
0:00:31.575,0:00:34.807
So I'm joined today by two special guests
0:00:34.845,0:00:37.805
who can enlighten us about
0:00:37.814,0:00:40.862
both what's going on with the orbiter
0:00:40.891,0:00:46.525
and about unmanned or robotic[br]space exploration in general.
0:00:46.668,0:00:51.777
So first, I'd like to introduce you[br]to a NASA space scientist,
0:00:51.872,0:00:54.329
one of the MAVEN scientists,
0:00:54.443,0:00:58.700
Nick Schneider, from the[br]University of Colorado in Boulder.
0:00:58.245,0:01:02.480
He's with the Laboratory for[br]Atmospheric and Space Physics.
0:01:02.172,0:01:03.796
That's a mouthful.
0:01:03.863,0:01:07.610
And he's one of the members[br]of the Science Team.
0:01:07.261,0:01:09.321
I'm actually going to pull up…
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He's an Associates Professor
0:01:11.251,0:01:14.270
in the Department of Astrophysical[br]and Planetary Sciences
0:01:14.580,0:01:16.215
at the University of Colorado.
0:01:16.692,0:01:20.741
He received his PhD in Planetary Science[br]from the University of Arizona.
0:01:20.941,0:01:25.369
His research interests include
0:01:25.417,0:01:28.713
planetary atmospheres[br]and planetary astronomy
0:01:28.904,0:01:32.525
with one focus on the odd case[br]of Jupiter's moon, Io.
0:01:32.934,0:01:36.481
He is also the lead on the[br]Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrograph
0:01:36.481,0:01:38.897
on the upcoming MAVEN mission to Mars.
0:01:38.974,0:01:40.795
He enjoys teaching at all levels
0:01:40.795,0:01:44.537
and is active in efforts to improve[br]undergraduate astronomy education.
0:01:44.586,0:01:46.760
I'd go for that.
0:01:46.162,0:01:48.373
Off the job, he enjoys[br]exploring the outdoors
0:01:48.449,0:01:51.270
with his family[br]and figuring out how things work.
0:01:51.368,0:01:53.450
What I have here?
0:01:53.131,0:01:55.788
I'd like to show up something you've done.
0:01:55.836,0:01:57.793
You are one of the authors on this book
0:01:57.793,0:01:59.876
which I hear is in 7th edition.
0:01:59.918,0:02:01.720
NS: That's right.
0:02:01.123,0:02:02.733
JM: The Cosmic Perspective
0:02:02.733,0:02:05.430
This is a beginning astronomy textbook.
0:02:05.706,0:02:06.951
NS: Exactly.
0:02:07.335,0:02:08.887
JM: Welcome Nick.
0:02:08.944,0:02:11.810
I'm going to introduce Chris right now.
0:02:11.887,0:02:16.857
Chris Impey is a[br]university distinguished Professor
0:02:17.143,0:02:19.603
at the University of Arizona.
0:02:19.689,0:02:21.957
So you guys have a connection.
0:02:22.140,0:02:25.450
And he's Deputy Head[br]of the Astronomy Department.
0:02:25.131,0:02:27.303
His research interests include
0:02:27.341,0:02:32.870
observational cosmology,[br]quasars, and distant galaxies.
0:02:32.335,0:02:36.285
He has written 160 research papers[br]and two astronomy textbooks
0:02:36.285,0:02:38.498
but you say those are online, right?
0:02:38.565,0:02:40.419
CI: Yeah, the one's repurposed.
0:02:40.447,0:02:43.129
It's called Teach Astronomy[br]so it's up there and free.
0:02:43.197,0:02:46.517
JM: Oh, great. He has won[br]11 teaching awards
0:02:46.612,0:02:50.466
has served as a National Science[br]Foundation distinguished teaching scholar
0:02:50.514,0:02:53.446
a Phi Beta Kappa visiting scholar
0:02:53.523,0:02:57.446
and the Carnegie Council's[br]Arizona Professor of the Year.
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He is former Vice President of[br]the American Astronomical Society
0:03:01.694,0:03:03.936
and Fellow of the AAAS.
0:03:04.120,0:03:06.724
He has four popular books[br]actually now five:
0:03:06.952,0:03:10.579
The Living Cosmos,[br]How It Ends, Talking About Life,
0:03:10.627,0:03:13.427
and the one that we are referencing today
0:03:13.494,0:03:15.730
called Dreams of Other Worlds
0:03:15.777,0:03:19.272
which is the Amazing Story of[br]Unmanned Space Exploration.
0:03:19.672,0:03:21.199
So welcome, Chris.
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CI: Thank you.
0:03:22.808,0:03:25.478
JM: It's great to have you both here.
0:03:25.668,0:03:27.746
Before we go forward
0:03:27.917,0:03:31.193
in News of Space today,
0:03:31.346,0:03:35.342
Chris Hatfield, Col. Chris Hatfield[br]from the Canadian Space Agency
0:03:35.342,0:03:38.622
who was on the ISS and returned recently.
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As we know he made[br]a big splash on social media
0:03:41.720,0:03:43.799
with his images, and singing,
0:03:43.799,0:03:46.663
and his videos explaining his music.[br]
0:03:46.960,0:03:50.004
He has published a book[br]It is out today.
0:03:50.165,0:03:53.103
So if you haven't gotten[br]you haven't heard of it, it's called
0:03:53.151,0:03:56.352
An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth:[br] What Going to Space
0:03:56.352,0:04:00.374
Taught Me About Ingenuity, Determination,[br]and Being Prepared for Anything
0:04:00.631,0:04:02.934
And we at Scientific American
0:04:02.934,0:04:06.137
will have him as a guest[br]on November 14th at noon.
0:04:06.441,0:04:09.583
So mark that on your calendars[br]and join us if you can for that.
0:04:10.210,0:04:13.981
So, let's talk a little bit about MAVEN
0:04:14.143,0:04:18.351
before we talk about un-manned[br]space exploration in general
0:04:18.475,0:04:21.740
or robotic space exploration in general.
0:04:22.988,0:04:26.384
There's a lot of interest,[br]so why don't we do some of the details?
0:04:26.422,0:04:28.647
When is this expected to launch?
0:04:28.938,0:04:33.037
NS: MAVEN is slated to launch[br]in the afternoon of November 18th.
0:04:33.857,0:04:36.829
It's a short period every afternoon
0:04:36.829,0:04:38.286
for a couple of weeks
0:04:38.286,0:04:41.500
when all the planets are aligned,
0:04:41.305,0:04:45.890
because we have to have the Earth[br]in the right position relative to Mars
0:04:45.127,0:04:47.443
and the right rotation of the Earth
0:04:47.491,0:04:50.845
so that the spacecraft will actually[br]get to Mars on time.
0:04:51.700,0:04:53.850
If you ever wanted to know somebody
0:04:53.144,0:04:55.805
whose life was controlled[br]by the positions of the planets
0:04:55.843,0:05:00.155
well, that's anybody trying to launch[br]a spacecraft to another planet.
0:05:00.725,0:05:02.232
JM: But not the rest of us.
0:05:02.263,0:05:05.678
So what's in paper is not relevant at all.
0:05:07.420,0:05:09.216
But actually there are several days
0:05:09.263,0:05:12.800
so you have a window[br]of several days during this time.
0:05:12.360,0:05:15.485
NS: That's right, it's a couple of weeks[br]and the main thing that happens
0:05:15.513,0:05:19.385
if the planets go out of alignment[br]it just takes a little bit extra fuel.
0:05:19.518,0:05:24.113
And fuel is precious,[br]it's our ability to maneuver
0:05:24.113,0:05:25.701
when we get to Mars.
0:05:25.739,0:05:28.270
So we really want to launch[br]at that sweet spot
0:05:28.271,0:05:30.222
early in the launch window.
0:05:30.811,0:05:32.234
JM: That's fantastic.
0:05:32.253,0:05:34.988
I'm excited because I'm going down[br]for the launch, myself.
0:05:35.360,0:05:37.410
The only other launch I've seen
0:05:37.790,0:05:39.009
is the last space shuttle launch.
0:05:39.009,0:05:40.703
I'm glad I got to see that one.
0:05:40.722,0:05:43.963
So, I'm looking forward[br]to watching an Atlis-5 go off.
0:05:44.634,0:05:45.968
NS: Me too.
0:05:46.350,0:05:48.428
JM: I'm really quite excited about this.
0:05:48.974,0:05:50.882
So, as far as…
0:05:51.902,0:05:56.208
We're wondering, for those of who did[br]not catch the press conference yesterday.
0:05:56.208,0:05:58.748
What is MAVEN going to do?
0:05:59.493,0:06:01.713
NS: Sure, I'm happy to explain that.
0:06:01.855,0:06:07.120
I'm pretty sure that[br]the members of the hangout
0:06:07.980,0:06:09.770
are going to be pretty familiar
0:06:09.115,0:06:11.724
with the basics on Mars.
0:06:13.092,0:06:15.044
A hundred years ago or more
0:06:15.044,0:06:17.670
anybody who looked through[br]the telescope on Mars
0:06:17.708,0:06:20.917
really wondered what was going on[br]with the change of the seasons.
0:06:21.300,0:06:24.283
There was actually a suspicion[br]that there was life on Mars,
0:06:24.283,0:06:26.144
water on Mars,
0:06:26.308,0:06:29.801
but by the time[br]the first NASA probes got to Mars
0:06:29.867,0:06:31.549
what they discovered instead
0:06:31.597,0:06:34.360
is that the atmosphere now[br]is next to nothing.
0:06:34.521,0:06:39.096
There's no flowing water or evidence
0:06:39.192,0:06:41.947
of abundant water on the surface
0:06:41.985,0:06:44.401
and instead it's this really cold
0:06:44.401,0:06:46.711
really dry planet.
0:06:47.029,0:06:49.259
And yet, you look at those images
0:06:49.259,0:06:52.323
and what you see from the spacecraft
0:06:52.389,0:06:54.537
are dried up river beds
0:06:54.585,0:06:57.315
river deltas filing up craters.
0:06:57.506,0:07:00.747
There must have been[br]a warmer wetter environment
0:07:00.747,0:07:02.581
billions of years ago.
0:07:02.666,0:07:04.880
And the only way that's possible
0:07:04.937,0:07:08.098
is for there to have been[br]a huge greenhouse effect
0:07:08.126,0:07:10.445
with lots more atmosphere.
0:07:10.639,0:07:12.553
Everybody's best guess
0:07:12.601,0:07:17.237
is that Mars has lost[br]80, 90, 99% of the atmosphere
0:07:17.237,0:07:20.126
over billions of years.
0:07:20.535,0:07:23.336
We used to think that[br]the atmosphere on Mars
0:07:23.336,0:07:25.529
might have combined with the surface.
0:07:25.586,0:07:28.259
That's actually where limestone[br]comes from on the Earth.
0:07:28.326,0:07:31.280
It's carbon-dioxide being[br]sucked into the surface.
0:07:31.165,0:07:33.409
But the missions sent to Mars so far
0:07:33.466,0:07:35.859
can't find enough evidence
0:07:35.935,0:07:39.106
that the atmosphere[br]re-combined with the surface.
0:07:39.182,0:07:41.697
So we're left with the other possibility
0:07:41.745,0:07:44.424
that the atmosphere escaped away to space.
0:07:44.462,0:07:46.925
And so that's what MAVEN[br]is going to go check.
0:07:47.860,0:07:48.729
Is it possible
0:07:48.796,0:07:51.427
that through the host of processes
0:07:51.455,0:07:54.785
we understand that the escape rate[br]of the atmosphere to space
0:07:54.870,0:07:56.715
is large enough to explain
0:07:56.753,0:07:59.934
where almost all the early[br]Mars atmosphere went?
0:08:00.115,0:08:01.938
And I can get into more detail
0:08:01.938,0:08:04.356
about how we make[br]those measurements, if you want,
0:08:04.384,0:08:06.623
but I just wanted you[br]to get the basic idea
0:08:06.652,0:08:08.517
about what MAVEN's about,
0:08:08.764,0:08:10.146
JM: That's interesting.
0:08:10.203,0:08:12.545
So part of my interest in this
0:08:12.602,0:08:16.590
is I was invited to come[br]to a New Media workshop
0:08:16.628,0:08:18.911
out there at the University of Colorado
0:08:18.911,0:08:21.662
and to listen to you scientists talk about
0:08:21.662,0:08:24.240
what MAVEN was all about.
0:08:24.162,0:08:26.761
So I'm happy to follow up[br]with this hangout
0:08:26.761,0:08:28.895
for the Scientific American audience.
0:08:29.044,0:08:31.810
One thing that was interesting was
0:08:31.848,0:08:34.760
Why didn't we send a probe to Venus?
0:08:34.780,0:08:38.280
We've sent probes elsewhere [br]to look at the atmosphere.
0:08:38.133,0:08:39.984
But why not Venus?
0:08:40.136,0:08:42.491
I mean that's so obvious[br]it's so close, but…
0:08:42.806,0:08:44.649
I'll actually ask Chris
0:08:44.649,0:08:47.180
to weigh in on this because[br]you've just written a book
0:08:47.180,0:08:51.346
about almost every single[br]unmanned exploration craft
0:08:51.394,0:08:53.138
that's been sent out.
0:08:53.612,0:08:56.350
CI: I think that the trouble with[br]planetary science now
0:08:56.426,0:08:59.117
is there's so many good ideas to pursue,
0:08:59.117,0:09:02.182
and so few new starts possible[br]in the budget.
0:09:02.267,0:09:03.864
You can't do everything.
0:09:03.940,0:09:05.794
I was hanging out at JPL
0:09:05.818,0:09:07.724
lecturing to engineers there
0:09:07.772,0:09:10.509
and one of them was the lead[br]on a Venus mission,
0:09:10.509,0:09:11.992
a Venus lander,
0:09:12.110,0:09:14.578
which got deselected at the last stage.
0:09:14.597,0:09:17.177
When it got down to the final four[br]it wasn't picked.
0:09:17.206,0:09:19.149
And it was really challenging
0:09:19.149,0:09:21.475
because, you know, Venus[br]is a pretty nasty place
0:09:21.513,0:09:24.100
and they had a mission[br]that was going to land there
0:09:24.300,0:09:25.514
take data for ten days
0:09:25.514,0:09:28.907
before it got baked out and died
0:09:28.907,0:09:30.933
and learn an enormous amount about Venus.
0:09:30.933,0:09:33.512
So, you know, there are missions
0:09:33.559,0:09:35.404
sitting there on the shelf
0:09:35.423,0:09:38.940
from NASA people[br]and people who work with NASA
0:09:38.940,0:09:41.920
to do almost everything you could imagine
0:09:41.920,0:09:42.706
whether it's Hydrobot
0:09:42.706,0:09:46.129
melting through the European ice pack[br]and looking for life
0:09:46.129,0:09:49.127
or going back to Titan with dirigibles
0:09:49.146,0:09:50.787
and sampling all the lakes
0:09:50.854,0:09:53.603
or the more advanced Mars concepts
0:09:53.603,0:09:55.374
that would actually look for life
0:09:55.374,0:09:58.607
by drilling down to what we think[br]might be aquifers underneath.
0:09:58.655,0:10:00.856
There are all these concepts out there
0:10:00.894,0:10:04.190
and not enough coin to do most of them.
0:10:05.550,0:10:07.340
JM: Yeah,
0:10:08.301,0:10:10.382
with the number of things we've sent out
0:10:10.382,0:10:13.122
and we've learned a lot,[br]it just seems infinite
0:10:13.150,0:10:15.170
what else we could possibly learn
0:10:15.170,0:10:17.337
if we could send every dream
0:10:17.337,0:10:20.378
of explorers out there.
0:10:20.663,0:10:24.204
Actually before we get back to[br]the Mars atmosphere and MAVEN
0:10:24.343,0:10:26.535
I was interested,
0:10:26.535,0:10:28.587
when I first mentioned to my editor,
0:10:28.634,0:10:32.376
I want to talk about this book[br]and the MAVEN thing.
0:10:32.680,0:10:37.581
Your subtitle is The Amazing Story of [br]Unmanned Space Exploration
0:10:37.581,0:10:39.474
and I was immediately countered with
0:10:39.474,0:10:42.428
"Oh, that's not the correct term
0:10:42.428,0:10:43.986
"the politically correct term
0:10:43.986,0:10:46.117
"to use the word 'unmanned' ".
0:10:46.203,0:10:48.640
And I inquired of you about that.
0:10:48.697,0:10:52.950
So do you want to explain why you chose[br]"unmanned" versus "robotic"
0:10:52.152,0:10:55.177
despite the fact "unmanned"[br]might upset people?
0:10:55.624,0:10:59.588
CI: To be honest, that was[br]a publisher decision actually
0:11:00.256,0:11:03.646
They published a book[br]and they get the deciding vote on that.
0:11:04.150,0:11:06.995
"Robotic" would have been[br]a better choice, I agree.
0:11:07.526,0:11:11.813
And, we've had to take[br]the various languages…
0:11:11.965,0:11:15.799
Look at the evolution of the Star Trek[br]the famous Star Trek line,
0:11:15.989,0:11:19.189
"where no man has gone before" to[br]"where no one has gone before"
0:11:19.275,0:11:21.934
So there's been[br]suitable and appropriate evolution
0:11:21.982,0:11:24.265
of some of these iconic phrases
0:11:24.729,0:11:29.014
JM: So, would both of you agree that[br]"robotic" is probably
0:11:29.014,0:11:31.758
just a better term, or a perfect term
0:11:31.758,0:11:36.322
or is there an even better term?[br]'Cause we've sent out telescopes…?
0:11:36.322,0:11:38.013
And when I think of "robotic"
0:11:38.013,0:11:39.954
I think of lots of moving arms[br]
0:11:39.954,0:11:44.124
and things that are grabbing things[br]to bring back to analyze
0:11:44.124,0:11:48.582
and less so just[br]analytical equipment or optics.
0:11:49.392,0:11:53.381
But, I guess, my expansion of "robotics"[br]might need to expand.
0:11:53.542,0:11:55.532
NS: I use "robotic exploration".
0:11:56.653,0:11:58.686
CI: They do feel quite different.
0:11:58.772,0:12:01.686
Orbiting telescopes[br]or telescopes at the LaGrange Point
0:12:01.686,0:12:06.046
they're just the technology[br]we use on Earth to observe
0:12:06.046,0:12:07.799
transplanted into space.
0:12:07.799,0:12:09.469
And we remote observe on the Earth
0:12:09.469,0:12:11.817
I don't have to go to[br]Chili or Hawaii anymore
0:12:11.817,0:12:14.022
because I can remote observe[br]from my office.
0:12:14.241,0:12:17.437
But I think "robotic" is appropriate
0:12:17.437,0:12:19.029
for the planetary missions
0:12:19.029,0:12:21.374
because they're literally[br]like sense extenders.
0:12:21.393,0:12:23.462
They're our eyes and our ears
0:12:23.501,0:12:27.521
on another world, and we often[br]operate them that way.
0:12:30.250,0:12:33.620
JM: I'll have Chris give sort of
0:12:33.620,0:12:37.658
a history of robotic exploration[br]on Mars for us
0:12:37.734,0:12:41.356
and then we'll go back and talk a[br]little bit more about the MAVEN mission.
0:12:41.414,0:12:43.133
So, think back to your book,
0:12:43.133,0:12:45.808
what you've talked about[br]the different explorers
0:12:45.808,0:12:48.398
that have goneto Mars[br]and what they've accomplished.
0:12:48.455,0:12:51.504
Maybe their drawbacks
0:12:51.504,0:12:53.520
and how we're improving on that?
0:12:53.577,0:12:56.959
CI: Right, why I was interested in that book
0:12:57.160,0:12:58.838
is that I think that some people
0:12:58.857,0:13:02.707
just underestimate how fantastic[br]these technologies really are.
0:13:02.783,0:13:05.910
Just setting Mars aside for a minute,
0:13:05.986,0:13:08.867
the Huygens probe to soft-land on a world
0:13:08.915,0:13:10.979
nearly a billion miles away
0:13:11.170,0:13:13.560
and then inspect it[br]and find that it has
0:13:13.579,0:13:16.663
this bizarre Earth-like lakes,
0:13:16.663,0:13:19.709
and weather and cryovolcanism,[br]and all this cool stuff.
0:13:19.871,0:13:21.670
That's an amazing achievement
0:13:21.670,0:13:23.743
and to go back to the beginning
0:13:23.763,0:13:26.581
the Viking missions, long forgotten now
0:13:26.695,0:13:30.145
most Americans were not alive[br]when those missions were designed.
0:13:30.145,0:13:32.383
They were 1960s technology
0:13:32.431,0:13:35.126
Think of computers then,[br]think of electronics then.
0:13:35.221,0:13:38.250
And those two landers and two orbiters
0:13:38.298,0:13:39.869
did amazing things.
0:13:39.954,0:13:41.845
They did life-detection experiments
0:13:41.874,0:13:44.160
that have not been surpassed since
0:13:44.179,0:13:47.690
and one of which at least[br]led to an ambiguous result.
0:13:47.155,0:13:50.356
So, the Vikings were amazing missions
0:13:50.375,0:13:52.831
for that time, 40 years ago
0:13:52.879,0:13:56.762
and we've just continued[br]the progression with rovers.
0:13:56.974,0:14:01.948
Then NASA having gone for the[br]bouncing bag landing mechanism
0:14:02.140,0:14:04.603
which is kind of safe, very forgiving
0:14:04.603,0:14:07.437
upped the degree of difficulty hugely
0:14:07.485,0:14:09.587
with Curiosity and the Skycrane.
0:14:09.834,0:14:12.307
So again, amazing technologies
0:14:12.345,0:14:13.821
really high risk
0:14:13.821,0:14:16.982
and high reward[br]and high payoff activities.
0:14:17.716,0:14:22.702
These types of missions[br]absolutely push our technology.
0:14:23.017,0:14:25.160
Now a geologist would tell you
0:14:25.630,0:14:28.153
there is no substitute[br]for bringing back Mars rocks.
0:14:28.248,0:14:32.910
On Earth you could examine them[br]molecule by molecule.
0:14:32.206,0:14:35.455
But what you can compress into
0:14:35.455,0:14:38.522
something that you can launch[br]and will survive the passage
0:14:38.522,0:14:40.982
and the launch, and the entry into Mars
0:14:40.982,0:14:43.240
is still pretty amazing technology.
0:14:43.240,0:14:45.605
The instruments on Curiosity,[br]for instance,
0:14:45.605,0:14:48.967
I think we absolutely push the envelope
0:14:48.967,0:14:52.212
of almost everything[br]we can do in technology
0:14:52.212,0:14:54.557
when we design these kind of missions.
0:14:54.652,0:14:56.693
NS: Yeah, Chris, if I can jump in here
0:14:56.693,0:14:59.612
and add onto this[br]you talk about high technology
0:14:59.612,0:15:02.340
high performance, high capability.
0:15:02.398,0:15:05.391
But part of the message[br]that sometimes gets lost
0:15:05.467,0:15:07.564
is that this is also low cost.
0:15:07.783,0:15:10.574
If you think about every image
0:15:10.574,0:15:13.571
ever returned by Cassini spacecraft
0:15:13.609,0:15:16.606
or every rock ever picked up[br]by a Mars rover
0:15:17.127,0:15:20.477
the sum total of all this[br]robotic exploration
0:15:20.535,0:15:23.209
is less than half of NASA's budget.
0:15:23.418,0:15:25.217
It's a small fraction.
0:15:25.322,0:15:27.862
Putting humans in space
0:15:27.862,0:15:31.223
as dramatic and as forward moving as it is
0:15:31.290,0:15:34.200
and as much as I love that, too
0:15:34.409,0:15:36.164
that's more expensive.
0:15:36.904,0:15:38.974
What we can do with robots
0:15:38.974,0:15:40.992
being so much more affordable
0:15:41.210,0:15:43.933
we can go everywhere[br]and we can go there now.
0:15:44.171,0:15:48.862
So, it was really the immediacy[br]of robotic exploration
0:15:48.862,0:15:52.570
and our pervasive presence in space
0:15:52.570,0:15:56.220
that makes it such[br]a compelling subject for me.
0:15:56.733,0:15:59.564
CI: And, of course, that advantage[br]will just continue to grow
0:15:59.564,0:16:01.479
because the robotic missions
0:16:01.479,0:16:03.437
will become more miniaturized.
0:16:03.485,0:16:05.649
They will benefit from Moore's Law
0:16:05.687,0:16:08.389
and humans are always going to be tricky
0:16:08.389,0:16:10.434
and difficult to sustain in space.
0:16:10.491,0:16:13.219
Space is not a natural place for humans.
0:16:13.543,0:16:15.445
We're sort of shading into a huge debate
0:16:15.445,0:16:18.580
that plays out in our various communities
0:16:18.580,0:16:22.658
of man versus unmanned[br]or human versus non-human or robotic
0:16:22.658,0:16:24.692
and it doesn't have to be either or.
0:16:24.768,0:16:26.892
You're going to be talking[br]to Chris Hatfield
0:16:26.892,0:16:29.477
and when the astronauts[br]like him or John Grunsfeld
0:16:29.477,0:16:32.369
who we've had here a number of times[br]and who's a hero.
0:16:32.578,0:16:35.412
He walks into the auditorium[br]and he gets a standing ovation
0:16:35.450,0:16:38.733
from 200 astronomers[br]the guy who fixed Hubble three times.
0:16:38.962,0:16:41.572
So, there's no substitute for that either.
0:16:41.629,0:16:43.222
But it's expensive.
0:16:43.222,0:16:45.443
The space shuttle real cost
0:16:45.510,0:16:47.490
was half a billion dollars a launch
0:16:47.490,0:16:49.651
and a couple of shuttle launches
0:16:49.660,0:16:52.342
buys you a really cool planetary probe
0:16:52.342,0:16:54.718
so that's a hard trade-off.
0:16:57.145,0:17:00.495
JM: I actually really liked[br]your recap of the Hubble
0:17:00.495,0:17:05.126
the entire Hubble[br]building, launching, and repair
0:17:05.126,0:17:06.730
in your book.
0:17:06.836,0:17:09.116
It's worth visiting the book just for that.
0:17:09.154,0:17:12.250
But I did really like that retelling.
0:17:13.105,0:17:14.682
What I wanted to say
0:17:14.729,0:17:17.169
now that Chris has[br]talked about the different
0:17:17.169,0:17:19.800
probes that are there[br]that we sent there.
0:17:20.525,0:17:23.503
Of course, we know[br]we just had a government shutdown
0:17:23.570,0:17:29.179
and this probably had you guys[br]at MAVEN sweating... a lot
0:17:30.292,0:17:34.372
but you got a bit of a reprieve
0:17:34.782,0:17:38.342
and they allowed you to continue the work.
0:17:38.580,0:17:42.864
Do you want to explain why you guys[br]were allowed to get that exemption?
0:17:43.580,0:17:46.227
- Sure[br]- But the NAH couldn't?
0:17:47.055,0:17:50.737
NS: So, the MAVEN project did stand down
0:17:50.737,0:17:52.380
for a couple of days
0:17:52.427,0:17:54.642
under the government shutdown.
0:17:56.664,0:18:00.471
We were all very anxious[br]and frustrated by this.
0:18:01.351,0:18:03.006
This mission is ready to go
0:18:03.006,0:18:05.336
and it's got great science
0:18:05.336,0:18:08.145
but under the terms of the shutdown
0:18:08.339,0:18:12.496
that's not enough to get the exemption.
0:18:12.867,0:18:16.863
And even the fact that missing this launch[br]window that I talked about
0:18:16.948,0:18:21.100
and waiting in cold storage[br]for a couple of years
0:18:21.157,0:18:24.351
for the next chance would cost[br]a couple hundred million dollars
0:18:24.408,0:18:26.931
even that was not enough.
0:18:26.998,0:18:29.786
But, what really mattered is the fact that
0:18:29.862,0:18:35.652
built into MAVEN is a relay capability[br]for radio transmission
0:18:36.204,0:18:38.517
with the rovers on the surface
0:18:38.853,0:18:41.903
and so it's really these ongoing missions
0:18:41.960,0:18:45.789
that we need to preserve[br]the capability for communication.
0:18:46.270,0:18:49.609
That was the primary justification[br]for MAVEN getting
0:18:50.384,0:18:52.744
exempted from the shutdown.
0:18:52.820,0:18:55.280
There are a couple of satellites[br]around Mars
0:18:55.280,0:18:57.391
that are capable of performing[br]that relay function
0:18:57.391,0:18:59.777
but they're getting[br]a little long in the tooth
0:19:00.144,0:19:04.307
and we needed to make sure that MAVEN[br]would get there in this launch window
0:19:04.642,0:19:08.244
to be able to fulfill that role as needed.
0:19:08.491,0:19:10.573
Now we hope those other missions survive
0:19:10.573,0:19:12.110
but the last thing you want
0:19:12.110,0:19:15.123
is Curiosity, on the surface[br]making great discoveries
0:19:15.180,0:19:18.437
and no capability for[br]the high data rate back to Earth.
0:19:18.503,0:19:21.870
So that was what got MAVEN back on track.
0:19:22.130,0:19:25.610
And we are on track[br]for the launch on November 18th.
0:19:25.610,0:19:27.257
Did I say November 18th?
0:19:27.314,0:19:28.390
JM: Yes.
0:19:28.571,0:19:30.629
CI: I can't resist commenting that.
0:19:30.629,0:19:33.590
We're talking about how high-tech[br]space exploration is.
0:19:33.770,0:19:37.560
One of the areas where it's really[br]behind the curve is communication.
0:19:38.546,0:19:41.720
Probably some of your viewers may know
0:19:41.720,0:19:45.930
that Vincent Serf, who is the architect[br]of the original internet
0:19:45.183,0:19:48.325
is now working with NASA[br]on an interplanetary internet,
0:19:48.372,0:19:50.702
because there are real problems
0:19:50.740,0:19:53.662
with operating the internet[br]beyond the Earth
0:19:53.720,0:19:58.347
because you have missions[br]with hour-long transmission times
0:19:58.347,0:20:00.565
and they have to look up IP addresses
0:20:00.565,0:20:03.836
and they have to get hooked
0:20:03.912,0:20:06.579
into the patchwork quilt[br]that is the internet
0:20:06.579,0:20:08.613
and the protocols that go with it.
0:20:08.613,0:20:10.360
There's no way to do that right now.
0:20:10.541,0:20:14.870
So, we actually have to design[br]an entirely new architecture
0:20:14.870,0:20:16.920
for interplanetary internet
0:20:16.169,0:20:19.113
on which all of these[br]space missions will depend.
0:20:19.664,0:20:22.120
JM: That's really interesting.
0:20:22.489,0:20:26.449
CI: It's been pioneered by the mission[br]that's just gone to the moon, actually.
0:20:26.856,0:20:28.620
JM: Bellary.
0:20:28.119,0:20:30.940
CI: Bellary has been just pioneering
0:20:30.122,0:20:33.218
some of the first transmission protocols[br]under this new internet
0:20:33.218,0:20:35.650
a protocol for planetary explor…
0:20:35.754,0:20:38.726
JM: Is that built into the MAVEN, too then?
0:20:38.971,0:20:42.648
NS: No, we don't have[br]that advanced technology.
0:20:45.251,0:20:48.502
JM: You have a picture[br]of MAVEN behind you
0:20:48.502,0:20:50.593
and you also have a model.
0:20:50.962,0:20:54.459
Why don't you pull that forward[br]and sort of explain
0:20:54.707,0:20:56.634
what we've got going on
0:20:56.634,0:20:58.870
so people have a…
0:20:58.870,0:21:00.501
Because everyone's got this idea
0:21:00.501,0:21:03.453
of what Curiosity looks like, right?
0:21:03.814,0:21:06.340
Because there are just images all the time
0:21:06.340,0:21:08.620
of the rovers displayed on the internet[br]and everything.
0:21:08.648,0:21:12.491
So, I thought we could get an idea[br]of what an orbiter this type
0:21:12.491,0:21:14.483
is going to look like and do.
0:21:14.588,0:21:17.507
NS: Sure, and I'm glad you emphasized[br]the word "orbiter".
0:21:17.583,0:21:20.865
This spacecraft doesn't land[br]on the surface.
0:21:21.257,0:21:24.582
We just orbit the planet[br]over and over again
0:21:24.658,0:21:26.943
about every five hours, or so
0:21:26.972,0:21:28.769
studying the different ways
0:21:28.807,0:21:30.989
that the atmosphere[br]can escape away to space
0:21:31.122,0:21:33.664
and even what the atmosphere properties
0:21:33.780,0:21:37.210
are high up in the atmosphere.
0:21:37.296,0:21:39.522
But to give you a bit of a tour
0:21:39.570,0:21:42.029
this is a 1/30th scale model.
0:21:42.200,0:21:44.259
So the actual MAVEN spacecraft
0:21:44.316,0:21:47.856
from tip to tip is about the size[br]of a school bus.
0:21:47.999,0:21:49.776
And everything that you see out here
0:21:49.776,0:21:52.183
all this real estate, is the solar arrays.
0:21:52.373,0:21:54.580
So we gather enough solar power
0:21:54.647,0:21:58.910
to fuel all of our instruments[br]all of our controlled electronics.
0:22:01.374,0:22:04.884
Right here is where[br]we keep the explosives.
0:22:05.164,0:22:07.417
This is the fuel that we fire
0:22:07.417,0:22:09.787
as we enter Mars' orbit.
0:22:09.901,0:22:12.178
It has to slow us down[br]all the excess energy
0:22:12.216,0:22:14.305
that we arrive there with.
0:22:14.595,0:22:19.419
And, so the actual[br]rocket nozzles are down here.
0:22:19.923,0:22:23.655
And this is our relay antenna
0:22:23.905,0:22:26.462
by which we send[br]our own data back to Earth
0:22:26.462,0:22:29.631
and also any data from the rovers
0:22:29.688,0:22:32.418
when they need us[br]to perform that function.
0:22:32.560,0:22:35.974
And when we talk about robotic exploration
0:22:36.400,0:22:40.139
we might say that humans[br]have five senses
0:22:40.426,0:22:44.302
Well, I have to say that[br]spacecraft can have dozens
0:22:44.359,0:22:48.244
or you can choose from dozens[br]of different kinds of senses
0:22:48.320,0:22:51.377
when you're designing[br]your robotic explorer.
0:22:51.530,0:22:55.451
And Chris has already talked about
0:22:55.518,0:22:59.488
how robots can be the eyes and ears[br]and those analogies are really quite good.
0:22:59.621,0:23:03.429
So, for example, you can see[br]we've got these antennas here
0:23:03.429,0:23:06.594
and we've got some[br]devices out on the end here.
0:23:06.594,0:23:08.634
These are like the ears of the spacecraft
0:23:08.691,0:23:11.712
listening to the magnetic and electric fields[br]
0:23:11.712,0:23:15.101
as they change in the vicinity[br]of the spacecraft.
0:23:15.855,0:23:17.733
One of the things our spacecraft does
0:23:17.771,0:23:21.192
is it actually flies[br]through the atmosphere
0:23:21.192,0:23:22.996
actually it flies this way.
0:23:23.036,0:23:26.995
That's why the solar arrays[br]are angled like that.
0:23:27.738,0:23:29.861
As we fly through the atmosphere
0:23:29.861,0:23:31.664
we have a handful of instruments
0:23:31.664,0:23:34.398
that it's like smelling[br]or tasting the atmosphere.
0:23:34.502,0:23:38.043
Particle by particle they can see[br]what the atmosphere is made out of
0:23:38.043,0:23:40.266
and even how fast[br]those particles are going
0:23:40.266,0:23:42.832
and if they'll escape away.
0:23:43.587,0:23:46.570
My baby is this instrument, right here.
0:23:46.570,0:23:48.685
It's the Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrograph.
0:23:48.685,0:23:50.871
It's the eyes of MAVEN.
0:23:51.207,0:23:52.617
You might not know it
0:23:52.617,0:23:54.830
but every atmosphere in the solar system
0:23:54.830,0:23:58.150
is glowing like crazy in the ultraviolet.
0:23:59.021,0:24:02.325
We have this instrument[br]that can spread the spectrum apart
0:24:02.325,0:24:04.962
and see how much carbon dioxide is,
0:24:04.962,0:24:07.675
how much hydrogen, how much oxygen,
0:24:08.661,0:24:10.498
all those different ingredients
0:24:10.517,0:24:12.734
how they're distributed[br]through the atmosphere
0:24:12.734,0:24:15.883
and even, again,[br]their chances of escaping.
0:24:15.883,0:24:18.168
So this spacecraft is perfectly designed
0:24:18.168,0:24:20.926
with every instrument onboard[br]that's necessary
0:24:20.926,0:24:23.121
to track all the different ways
0:24:23.121,0:24:26.020
that the atoms and molecules[br]of the Mars atmosphere
0:24:26.020,0:24:28.175
can escape away to space.
0:24:28.535,0:24:31.306
Did I leave anything out?[br]Did you have any questions?
0:24:31.351,0:24:34.525
JM: When you're saying it's going[br]through the atmosphere
0:24:34.525,0:24:37.637
were you saying that's towards the planet[br]or away from the planet?
0:24:37.637,0:24:39.596
Because there are some dips
0:24:39.596,0:24:41.302
you are doing, like planned…
0:24:41.340,0:24:42.507
NS: That's right.
0:24:42.680,0:24:45.716
Let me get my other prop here.
0:24:46.596,0:24:48.606
JM: Which will not be to scale?
0:24:51.675,0:24:54.843
NS: I don't have enough hands[br]to really do it right.
0:24:54.963,0:24:57.923
But to keep things in perspective
0:24:57.923,0:24:59.968
remember that a planet's atmosphere
0:24:59.968,0:25:02.809
is really thin on the scale of the planet.
0:25:02.844,0:25:07.496
Mars is considerably[br]smaller than the Earth,
0:25:07.652,0:25:10.516
larger than the moon[br]intermediate-size planet
0:25:10.545,0:25:15.313
but still the atmosphere[br]is just about 100, 200 km down here.
0:25:15.409,0:25:18.936
And our spacecraft is designed
0:25:18.936,0:25:22.071
to swoop from high altitudes here, down
0:25:22.318,0:25:26.400
and fly, skim through the upper layers
0:25:27.575,0:25:30.690
where the air resistance[br]is pretty significant
0:25:30.690,0:25:32.820
and then come back up again.
0:25:32.820,0:25:35.163
We're actually able to take[br]images of the planet from up here
0:25:35.163,0:25:37.346
and then we'll dip back down.
0:25:37.346,0:25:40.230
And, every now and again[br]we change our orbit,
0:25:40.230,0:25:43.947
so that we go even deeper[br]into the atmosphere.
0:25:44.034,0:25:47.734
It's still far above where airplanes fly[br]or anything like that
0:25:47.734,0:25:50.464
in terms of density in Earth's atmosphere
0:25:50.464,0:25:52.734
but it's a region of great interest
0:25:52.734,0:25:55.568
for the upper layers of the atmosphere
0:25:55.568,0:25:57.299
where gasses start to escape.
0:25:57.299,0:25:59.210
So we call those deep dips.
0:25:59.343,0:26:01.930
Nonetheless,
0:26:02.973,0:26:07.670
it's pretty I won't say hair-raising[br]I'll just say unnerving
0:26:07.172,0:26:10.108
the sight that every orbit[br]we dip down into the atmosphere
0:26:10.118,0:26:12.962
that's just a little bit of friction[br]and we come out again.
0:26:13.660,0:26:16.408
It's why we need to have fuel[br]so we can continue to tune the orbit
0:26:16.408,0:26:20.260
and not dip down any deeper[br]than we need to, scientifically.
0:26:20.646,0:26:22.863
JM: So how long is this…
0:26:22.910,0:26:26.986
How long is MAVEN's,[br]your science project, supposed to last?
0:26:27.214,0:26:30.854
And then I'll get to Chris[br]about the longevity of things
0:26:30.912,0:26:33.426
because things have lasted[br]longer than we thought.
0:26:33.483,0:26:36.369
So your project[br]is slated to last how long?
0:26:36.558,0:26:39.032
You'll be collecting data officially…?
0:26:39.280,0:26:41.480
CI: The MAVEN primary mission
0:26:41.509,0:26:43.497
is one Earth year in duration.
0:26:43.678,0:26:46.570
We were hoping that we could[br]slip in the fine print
0:26:46.570,0:26:48.952
change one Earth year to one Mars year
0:26:48.999,0:26:51.512
but it turns out they're tracking that.
0:26:51.930,0:26:54.769
But one Earth year is enough for us
0:26:54.816,0:26:58.318
to sample all the different[br]conditions of the atmosphere
0:26:58.318,0:27:03.017
especially how the atmosphere behaves[br]when the sun kind of goes kablooey.
0:27:03.188,0:27:06.856
I'm sure that the viewers[br]are aware of solar activity
0:27:06.894,0:27:08.952
and the way that the sun[br]can spit out
0:27:08.981,0:27:12.243
extra energetic photons,[br]energetic particles.
0:27:12.614,0:27:16.212
Those are the processes that can[br]strip away the Mars atmosphere.
0:27:16.507,0:27:20.474
And we really want to study how the[br]atmosphere behaves under those conditions
0:27:20.474,0:27:24.246
and we should see that[br]in our one Earth year primary mission.
0:27:24.426,0:27:28.171
JM: So there's an anticipated[br]major solar activity, right?
0:27:28.400,0:27:31.179
That this is of concern as you guys arrive
0:27:31.303,0:27:33.154
if I remember correctly?
0:27:33.389,0:27:35.225
NS: The sun is unpredictable.
0:27:35.329,0:27:38.822
We don't know what the sun's going[br]to do when we arrive,
0:27:38.984,0:27:41.041
You might be thinking about the comet
0:27:41.079,0:27:43.800
that gets to Mars[br]around the same time that we do,
0:27:43.891,0:27:46.606
JM:That must be what I'm thinking of[br]which is different.
0:27:46.638,0:27:49.280
NS: Always something going on[br]in our solar system.
0:27:50.569,0:27:53.654
JM: Now, you will not be doing[br]any sort of readings on the comet
0:27:53.711,0:27:55.865
unless it affects the atmosphere, right?
0:27:55.865,0:27:57.599
NS: That's too soon to tell.
0:27:57.741,0:28:00.615
We're putting all that on hold[br]until we're safely launched.
0:28:00.852,0:28:03.697
I just needed to correct
0:28:03.755,0:28:06.724
something that I said a minute ago[br]and that is to say
0:28:06.781,0:28:08.581
we are arriving at Mars
0:28:09.148,0:28:12.194
while the sun is[br]in a statistically active period.
0:28:12.932,0:28:14.745
So that part was correct.
0:28:14.984,0:28:17.386
But whether or not there's going to be
0:28:17.443,0:28:19.679
a good solar storm the day we turn on
0:28:19.727,0:28:21.546
we wish, but we don't know.
0:28:21.746,0:28:24.605
JM: We don't know that for sure,[br]that's one of those things.
0:28:24.689,0:28:27.936
I want to pop back to Chris[br]because, first of all,
0:28:28.041,0:28:30.599
this area writing this book
0:28:30.675,0:28:34.294
about unmanned space exploration[br]is not your original field of study.
0:28:34.428,0:28:37.962
This is not what you prefer to do[br]but you're very interested.
0:28:37.998,0:28:42.177
You've been allowed a lot of insights[br]by the people you know.
0:28:42.332,0:28:45.034
NS: Yeah, he chose the wrong field[br]when he was young.
0:28:45.217,0:28:47.689
CI: Well, I talked to people[br]like Caroline Porco
0:28:47.737,0:28:49.990
and she said it's like child-rearing.
0:28:50.056,0:28:52.775
You've got to set aside[br]an 18-20 year timespan
0:28:52.832,0:28:54.599
to do something like Cassini
0:28:54.682,0:28:58.418
I'm just a bit too much of an[br]instant gratification kind of person.
0:28:58.514,0:29:01.277
I like to go to a big telescope[br]get my data, write a paper
0:29:01.324,0:29:03.195
and be done within six months.
0:29:03.243,0:29:05.715
So it's just impatience[br]that's the only thing
0:29:05.801,0:29:08.516
I do want to echo[br]one thing Nick talked about.
0:29:08.554,0:29:11.985
The trajectory, and the swooping[br]in and out of the atmosphere.
0:29:12.186,0:29:14.164
That's another one of the amazing…
0:29:14.221,0:29:16.836
the orbital mechanics[br]of the people that do this
0:29:16.903,0:29:19.613
in the outer solar system[br]or anywhere in the solar system
0:29:19.689,0:29:21.301
it's pretty amazing.
0:29:21.358,0:29:26.280
Cassini will by the end of it's[br]equinox and solstice missions
0:29:26.309,0:29:28.406
have done over a hundred flybys.
0:29:28.482,0:29:30.813
And they of course[br]re-program these in real time.
0:29:30.908,0:29:34.037
Once you find out that ???[br]is interesting you go back to it.
0:29:34.222,0:29:36.531
And I think the closest approach
0:29:36.608,0:29:40.441
was 22 km via Iapetus[br]and that's incredible.
0:29:40.564,0:29:43.857
And that's a billion miles away[br]and you're swooping your billion
0:29:43.952,0:29:46.294
multi-billion dollar hardware.
0:29:46.844,0:29:49.853
NS: And don't forget that this[br]was all pre-programmed
0:29:49.879,0:29:51.693
weeks or months in advance
0:29:51.731,0:29:53.996
because there's no two-way communication.
0:29:53.996,0:29:55.537
No one's driving Cassini.
0:29:55.596,0:29:58.476
CI: That's right. So, these are really
0:29:58.542,0:30:00.592
remarkable feats to be doing,
0:30:00.630,0:30:03.659
and the people who do that,[br]they must be having a hell of fun.
0:30:03.773,0:30:06.722
Just like the guy who was[br]was the deputy PI
0:30:06.779,0:30:09.569
of the Deep Impact mission.
0:30:09.670,0:30:11.718
He was quoted afterwards saying
0:30:11.741,0:30:14.464
"I can't believe they're paying us[br]to have this much fun".
0:30:14.504,0:30:16.527
NS: That's right, and every now and again
0:30:16.556,0:30:18.608
somebody will come up to me and say,
0:30:18.646,0:30:22.497
"Oh, are you a rocket scientist?"[br]and you know, I get a little chuffed.
0:30:22.773,0:30:25.771
But then I was put in my place recently[br]when somebody said,
0:30:25.828,0:30:28.485
"Huh, rocket scientist. I would never get
0:30:28.523,0:30:31.202
into a rocket made by a scientist".
0:30:33.265,0:30:36.832
It's the rocket engineers[br]that really deserve the credit.
0:30:36.952,0:30:39.162
You know, we get to go answer[br]the big questions
0:30:39.162,0:30:41.802
and that's what we consider fun,
0:30:41.868,0:30:47.127
but boy, are we ever dependent[br]on the ingenuity of the rocket engineers,
0:30:47.175,0:30:49.549
and what an amazing job they do.
0:30:49.605,0:30:51.936
JM: I have to interject this.
0:30:51.966,0:30:54.748
I met a lady, who was an engineer,
0:30:54.788,0:30:57.013
and she ended up writing[br]a book for children
0:30:57.013,0:30:59.274
about engineers, what do engineers do,
0:30:59.321,0:31:02.465
because her own 5-year-old[br]was looking at, like,
0:31:02.503,0:31:04.636
a shuttle launch, or something, and said,
0:31:04.665,0:31:07.814
"Oh, wow! Look what scientists get to do"
0:31:07.899,0:31:10.319
and she goes "and engineers".
0:31:10.417,0:31:13.172
"Engineers are the ones[br]who make this actually happen"
0:31:13.212,0:31:15.485
so, yeah, is very important.
0:31:15.564,0:31:17.983
We don't have an engineer[br]on the panel right now.
0:31:18.021,0:31:20.341
We got two scientists...[br]well, three scientists.
0:31:20.417,0:31:22.978
But I don't do space stuff.
0:31:23.256,0:31:26.385
Chris, I'd like you to speak quickly[br]about this thing.
0:31:26.758,0:31:29.389
We send… well, we've had a few
0:31:29.447,0:31:31.871
where things have tried to give up,
0:31:31.938,0:31:34.310
but then sort of revived themselves,
0:31:34.330,0:31:37.105
they're able to work,[br]but for the most part,
0:31:37.135,0:31:38.927
we send these things out,
0:31:38.984,0:31:41.166
and they have an expected lifespan.
0:31:41.404,0:31:44.461
But most of the time they seem[br]to be exceeding that lifespan.
0:31:45.299,0:31:47.134
If you could speak on that,
0:31:47.163,0:31:50.732
and what we can do,[br]once we've gotten lucky.
0:31:51.246,0:31:54.207
CI: And that's natural and good engineering.
0:31:54.283,0:31:57.240
Of course, engineers like to have big margins,
0:31:57.297,0:31:59.375
and those margins are not always…
0:31:59.433,0:32:02.221
For a bridge, or anything,[br]it's a factor of two or three.
0:32:02.251,0:32:05.605
I think in space sometimes it's even more,[br]like an order of magnitude.
0:32:05.624,0:32:08.024
So, obviously the twin rovers
0:32:08.072,0:32:10.772
poor Steve talking about Mars time,
0:32:10.809,0:32:13.530
poor Steve Squires has been[br]living Mars time for a decade,
0:32:13.587,0:32:16.327
and he was only supposed[br]to do that for three months.
0:32:16.754,0:32:19.407
Because the second[br]of his rovers is still working.
0:32:19.535,0:32:22.332
There is another wonderful example.
0:32:22.516,0:32:27.801
The Pioneers and the Voyagers[br]now leaving our messages in a bottle,
0:32:27.858,0:32:29.821
tossed into the outer solar system.
0:32:29.897,0:32:31.592
They're putting out.
0:32:31.670,0:32:34.170
Their plans are reduced to a fraction
0:32:34.170,0:32:36.249
of a Watt of transmitted energy,
0:32:36.316,0:32:39.231
but we've got big enough[br]telescopes like Arecibo
0:32:39.317,0:32:41.714
to detect that at a distance[br]of billions of miles.
0:32:41.736,0:32:44.954
These again, Ed Stone, whose at JPL,
0:32:45.012,0:32:50.451
he's into his 80s, I think,[br]and these missions
0:32:50.451,0:32:53.651
are outlasting all of their investigators,[br]some of them.
0:32:53.730,0:32:55.177
And that's fine,
0:32:55.234,0:32:58.474
because they're still returning[br]useful data, and it's great.
0:32:58.519,0:33:01.686
The problem, of course, is the project,
0:33:01.686,0:33:03.764
and the money, and the funding
0:33:03.802,0:33:05.897
sort of implies an ending point,
0:33:05.897,0:33:09.015
and so it's horrible[br]when you face the prospect
0:33:09.015,0:33:10.651
of having to switch something off
0:33:10.698,0:33:13.621
that's still working,[br]or just not look at the data,
0:33:13.698,0:33:15.840
or not run the instruments anymore.
0:33:15.840,0:33:17.650
And those are real situations
0:33:17.650,0:33:19.914
because, obviously,[br]you can't start new things
0:33:19.943,0:33:22.429
unless you stop doing[br]some of your old things.
0:33:25.197,0:33:27.859
JM: I'm going to move back.[br]Thank you for that, Chris.
0:33:27.859,0:33:30.701
I'm going to move back[br]over to Nick about…
0:33:31.533,0:33:35.023
So what will you do when you're[br]past the one-year mark?
0:33:35.232,0:33:37.162
Will it depend on funding?
0:33:37.334,0:33:40.189
Will you still maintain
0:33:40.189,0:33:43.722
the communications[br]with the rovers on the surface,
0:33:43.789,0:33:48.879
or pair up with ESA[br]for future projects, or what?
0:33:49.933,0:33:53.779
NS: The one thing we know for sure[br]after our first year,
0:33:53.817,0:33:58.544
is that MAVEN will be kept[br]alive and operating
0:33:58.630,0:34:01.570
to serve as a relay for the rovers
0:34:01.608,0:34:03.953
for absolutely as long as possible.
0:34:04.095,0:34:06.774
And obviously, the current rovers,
0:34:06.869,0:34:11.536
and there's another one[br]arriving in Mars 2020,
0:34:11.707,0:34:14.942
but whether or not MAVEN[br]is also doing science
0:34:14.990,0:34:16.923
remains to be seen
0:34:17.066,0:34:21.072
Every NASA mission, whether it's[br]the Hubble Space Telescope
0:34:21.072,0:34:24.210
or the rovers, after 90 days,
0:34:24.267,0:34:27.046
goes through a very careful process
0:34:27.093,0:34:29.462
where the team says,[br]if you give us more money,
0:34:29.462,0:34:31.812
here's the science that we can do.
0:34:31.812,0:34:35.169
And so, they're thoughtful decisions,
0:34:35.382,0:34:41.134
albeit with a tight pocketbook
0:34:41.488,0:34:45.063
And so, we'll go through that process[br]called "Senior Review"
0:34:45.063,0:34:47.983
probably a handful of months[br]before the end of our first year
0:34:47.983,0:34:50.161
and we'll make the case saying,
0:34:50.237,0:34:53.237
if you allow us to keep[br]making measurements
0:34:53.275,0:34:55.671
here's the science that we can accomplish
0:34:55.934,0:34:57.975
It's a fabulous spacecraft.
0:34:58.045,0:35:00.487
It's got excellent instrumentation on it,
0:35:00.517,0:35:02.871
and I'm sure we'll make a very good case,
0:35:02.911,0:35:07.844
but it'll be up to a bunch of people[br]making these difficult choices.
0:35:08.630,0:35:11.106
JM: How many instruments are on MAVEN?
0:35:11.154,0:35:14.564
NS: You know, the truth is,[br]I can't remember if it's eight or nine,
0:35:14.611,0:35:16.342
but it's a bunch
0:35:16.342,0:35:22.137
and some of them are designed[br]for measuring the waves and the fields.
0:35:22.470,0:35:24.940
Some of them are designed[br]for the charged particles.
0:35:24.969,0:35:26.463
Some for the neutral particles
0:35:26.511,0:35:29.114
We're for photons, and some have two parts
0:35:29.114,0:35:32.267
and some have three,[br]and so that's why I can't quite keep track.
0:35:32.685,0:35:35.263
Basically, we have enough instruments on,
0:35:35.377,0:35:39.281
that an atom and molecule[br]can't get away from Mars
0:35:39.339,0:35:42.455
without us having a handle[br]on that process.
0:35:42.527,0:35:44.157
JM: We've noticed that.
0:35:44.237,0:35:48.941
Chris, so, reading your book, [br]I got the sense,
0:35:49.071,0:35:51.164
the average seems to be a dozen.
0:35:51.243,0:35:54.834
There's at least a dozen[br]on every probe we send out.
0:35:55.054,0:35:57.630
Would you say that's true?[br]Did I get that right?
0:35:57.953,0:36:03.320
CI: Yeah, a lot of mass emissions now[br]are likely Swiss army knives.
0:36:03.541,0:36:08.088
They have large numbers[br]of instrument teams combining
0:36:08.223,0:36:10.175
and Cassini is a classic example
0:36:10.177,0:36:12.402
that these are[br]multi-billion dollar missions.
0:36:12.462,0:36:15.284
Hubble is an example,[br]great space observatories,
0:36:15.284,0:36:18.022
but NASA's also had enormous success
0:36:18.022,0:36:21.079
with more specialized[br]single purpose missions.
0:36:21.513,0:36:23.755
My favorite two examples, of course,
0:36:23.755,0:36:27.466
are Keplar, as it's PI, Bill Burouki,[br]famously said,
0:36:27.770,0:36:30.665
"it's the most boring mission[br]you could possibly imagine".
0:36:30.837,0:36:33.516
It's designed to take a picture[br]of the same piece of sky,
0:36:33.516,0:36:35.236
every six minutes, for years,
0:36:35.236,0:36:36.710
and that's all it does.
0:36:36.777,0:36:38.132
It's how dull?
0:36:38.211,0:36:41.243
And then WMAT,[br]a completely different concept.
0:36:41.303,0:36:44.129
A sort of microwave satellite[br]looking at the early universe
0:36:44.129,0:36:46.324
also just doing a very simple thing,
0:36:46.324,0:36:49.805
just scanning the sky,[br]over and over and over again,
0:36:49.805,0:36:53.055
drilling down in the systematic[br]and random errors
0:36:53.055,0:36:54.838
to make a microwave map,
0:36:54.838,0:36:57.410
and that's all it can do[br]but it's incredible.
0:36:57.505,0:36:59.208
Those two missions hit,
0:36:59.208,0:37:02.195
which cost a fraction of a billion dollars,
0:37:02.195,0:37:05.732
more like, 100 million, say,[br]which is of course not cheap.
0:37:05.943,0:37:08.631
They do one thing exquisitely well.
0:37:08.682,0:37:12.134
So there's sort of two ways to go[br]with all of these missions
0:37:12.991,0:37:16.382
JM: Now MAVEN,[br]there were a lot of questions
0:37:16.582,0:37:22.190
about cost in the press conference[br]yesterday.
0:37:22.289,0:37:25.016
Do you remember some[br]of those numbers, Nick?
0:37:25.175,0:37:29.052
NS: No, and I missed the last part[br]of this press conference.
0:37:30.576,0:37:35.212
Scientists you'll learn remember numbers [br]to a factor of two, or so.
0:37:36.019,0:37:38.930
But we have, of course, teams of people.
0:37:39.101,0:37:41.945
The engineers are[br]a little more precise in that.
0:37:42.021,0:37:44.853
And the budgeteers more precise still.
0:37:45.203,0:37:52.041
All I know is that MAVEN has not[br]raised the alarms of cost overruns.
0:37:52.534,0:37:56.293
We have a principle investigator[br]who's made some hard choices,
0:37:56.493,0:37:58.053
especially early on
0:37:58.110,0:38:01.876
about how we're going[br]to keep this mission from over-running.
0:38:02.072,0:38:06.739
This is a real… the mark of what[br]are called "PI-led missions"
0:38:06.853,0:38:09.106
Principle Investigator Led Missions,
0:38:09.106,0:38:11.308
where it's really on one person's plate
0:38:11.308,0:38:14.031
to make sure that[br]this is going to perform,
0:38:14.031,0:38:16.818
do the science, and not overrun in cost.
0:38:17.215,0:38:19.751
So the MAVEN definitely goes[br]in the plus column
0:38:19.751,0:38:23.122
and being in the university setting
0:38:23.122,0:38:25.297
is one of the ways[br]that we've really been able
0:38:25.297,0:38:26.791
to keep the cost down,
0:38:26.791,0:38:29.177
and we sure wish that[br]more opportunities like this
0:38:29.215,0:38:30.949
would be coming down the pike
0:38:31.225,0:38:33.410
CI: These are hard tradeoffs too,
0:38:33.410,0:38:35.784
because sometimes an idea comes along
0:38:35.784,0:38:38.309
that you really want to add in[br]to your instruments
0:38:38.309,0:38:40.175
so it gives you a new capability,
0:38:40.175,0:38:42.510
and you've got to fit it[br]under that cost curve.
0:38:42.567,0:38:44.245
The famous example I like,
0:38:44.295,0:38:48.215
is that the Vikings were not[br]originally designed with cameras.
0:38:48.468,0:38:51.246
And Carl Sagan argued, he said
0:38:51.294,0:38:53.033
"We're going to look really foolish
0:38:53.033,0:38:54.667
"if there are polar bears on Mars
0:38:54.677,0:38:57.255
"and we didn't have a camera[br]to take pictures of them".
0:38:57.255,0:38:59.792
He was joking, but his point was taken,
0:38:59.830,0:39:02.160
and so the Vikings had cameras,
0:39:02.217,0:39:05.109
and it's the evocative image[br]of the surface of Mars
0:39:05.185,0:39:07.178
that caught everyone's attention.
0:39:07.330,0:39:09.942
And then fast-forward to Curiosity,
0:39:09.942,0:39:12.860
and this was unfortunately a failed attempt.
0:39:13.015,0:39:14.971
James Cameron was part of that project,
0:39:14.971,0:39:16.990
and he was on the verge of having a design
0:39:16.990,0:39:20.472
for an HD video camera[br]to be part of Curiosity.
0:39:20.795,0:39:22.298
It just couldn't make it under the wire
0:39:22.298,0:39:26.882
of getting all specified and locked down[br]before the launch,
0:39:26.901,0:39:30.690
so Curiosity did not have[br]the James Cameron connection.
0:39:30.872,0:39:34.594
But keeping these possibilities in play[br]is really important,
0:39:34.712,0:39:36.712
even if it's a tough budget decision.
0:39:36.836,0:39:38.609
NS: So, MAVEN by the way,
0:39:38.609,0:39:41.672
does not have[br]a visible light camera on it.
0:39:42.034,0:39:44.982
When you think about[br]the technology that's there
0:39:45.049,0:39:48.116
for Mars reconnaissance orbiter,
0:39:48.145,0:39:50.584
every camera has to be better[br]than the one before.
0:39:50.584,0:39:53.581
With all these other instruments[br]that we have onboard,
0:39:53.609,0:39:55.694
we couldn't take an even better camera.
0:39:55.732,0:39:57.459
But we'll be sending back
0:39:57.497,0:40:00.940
some pretty cool images and movies
0:40:00.979,0:40:03.065
of the planets at the ultraviolet,
0:40:03.123,0:40:05.676
and that'll be a new contribution.
0:40:05.753,0:40:10.148
Not so many megapixels though,[br]not scientifically important.
0:40:10.491,0:40:13.036
JM: I'm actually wearing,[br]I'll have to come up closer.
0:40:13.045,0:40:14.610
I'm actually wearing a necklace
0:40:14.610,0:40:16.545
by this gal whose fascinated with Mars
0:40:16.545,0:40:19.870
and this is Curiosity's[br]first photo on Mars.
0:40:20.174,0:40:24.236
So, she's taken iconic images[br]that have been taken on Mars
0:40:24.283,0:40:27.110
by Viking and all that[br]she's then turned into jewelry,
0:40:27.144,0:40:30.041
and I love wearing them because[br]they are conversation pieces.
0:40:30.060,0:40:34.852
So my little contribution[br]to spreading the excitement
0:40:34.896,0:40:38.728
of space exploration to the rest of the world.
0:40:41.337,0:40:44.610
Let me just… There was a question[br]I wanted to ask.
0:40:45.744,0:40:49.414
Chris, is there anything else[br]you'd like to add to this conversation
0:40:49.518,0:40:55.365
of the larger picture[br]of space exploration?
0:40:55.772,0:40:58.168
CI: Well, I'll just make a guess[br]for the future,
0:40:58.168,0:41:01.562
which is that we're at a sort[br]of interesting transition point
0:41:01.619,0:41:05.214
in space exploration[br]of the solar system or beyond
0:41:05.270,0:41:07.304
or even of space astronomy,
0:41:07.342,0:41:12.937
where we see this nascent private[br]space industry, which is emerging.
0:41:12.962,0:41:16.460
Just as well, since America can't get[br]astronauts up into orbit, anyway.
0:41:16.517,0:41:18.045
We depend on the Russians,
0:41:18.064,0:41:20.254
and now we're going to depend[br]on the private sector.
0:41:20.254,0:41:22.152
I think that's going to start playing out
0:41:22.152,0:41:24.109
in the business we've been talked about.
0:41:24.109,0:41:27.487
Remember there are[br]a thousand billionaires on the Earth,
0:41:27.487,0:41:32.254
and any one of them could fund[br]a really cool planetary probe.
0:41:32.378,0:41:35.747
So if NASA gets stock on sending[br]that Hydrobot to Europa,
0:41:35.747,0:41:39.899
or going back to Titan[br]with the dirigible technology,
0:41:39.899,0:41:43.199
I think some billionaires might step in,
0:41:43.268,0:41:46.094
and I think the whole game[br]is going to get more interesting.
0:41:46.094,0:41:47.676
It's kind of limiting
0:41:47.685,0:41:49.948
when only a couple[br]of governments are doing it
0:41:49.967,0:41:52.144
and the governments[br]get shutdown occasionally,
0:41:52.144,0:41:53.950
and they have tough budget[br]choices and so on.
0:41:53.950,0:41:56.268
I think it will be more of a wild west,
0:41:56.268,0:41:59.031
but there's going to be some[br]really cool things that happen
0:41:59.031,0:42:01.567
when the private sector and entrepreneurs
0:42:01.567,0:42:03.593
actually start doing this stuff.
0:42:04.222,0:42:05.911
JM: So, here's a question.
0:42:05.997,0:42:10.430
Any idea how many project ideas[br]are out there,
0:42:10.430,0:42:13.182
and what percent actually happen?
0:42:15.525,0:42:17.305
NS: It's a small fraction.
0:42:17.353,0:42:22.999
Every time NASA has an announcement[br]of opportunity with open categories,
0:42:23.046,0:42:25.792
there tend to be dozens of missions
0:42:25.840,0:42:28.972
for every one or two that are selected.
0:42:29.048,0:42:32.238
And it's a different set of dozens[br]for every opportunity.
0:42:32.343,0:42:35.164
So, pretty soon, that's going to be
0:42:35.231,0:42:38.063
hundreds of ideas that we're not doing.
0:42:38.139,0:42:41.232
And I can't promise that[br]they're all good or feasible
0:42:41.232,0:42:43.275
with the current technology,
0:42:43.304,0:42:48.625
but far more good and practical missions[br]are not chosen
0:42:49.089,0:42:52.332
because a nation hasn't found[br]the will to fund it.
0:42:54.161,0:42:56.812
CI: I agree. I mean, in some competitions
0:42:56.860,0:42:59.970
you go down from 100 to 25 to 4 to 1,
0:42:59.970,0:43:02.805
and the engineering,[br]we've talked about the engineering,
0:43:02.805,0:43:05.977
which is exquisite, and these[br]are technically feasible.
0:43:06.034,0:43:09.446
That almost never is the issue[br]of why they weren't chosen.
0:43:10.341,0:43:13.131
So, it really is more the will
0:43:13.197,0:43:15.312
the money, the priorities and so on,
0:43:15.341,0:43:17.712
which is why I think [br]if there are more players
0:43:17.712,0:43:20.721
some of these things[br]that are sitting there on the shelf,
0:43:20.721,0:43:22.602
NASA has the designs on the shelf,
0:43:22.602,0:43:24.307
will actually happen.
0:43:24.383,0:43:28.342
NS: Let me change from the billionaires
0:43:28.390,0:43:33.414
that Chris talks about[br]to the billion kids on the planet,
0:43:33.414,0:43:38.317
almost all of whom are excited about space.
0:43:39.345,0:43:44.506
And space is really the gateway,
0:43:44.887,0:43:48.330
I think the best gateway[br]to stem education.
0:43:49.397,0:43:52.369
It's really important that we keep[br]this space program going.
0:43:52.436,0:43:54.320
It's now an international effort,
0:43:54.358,0:43:58.032
so many nations participating to have this
0:43:58.251,0:44:01.395
really excite the next generation.
0:44:02.252,0:44:05.932
And before the viewers get discouraged [br]about the state of affairs
0:44:05.961,0:44:08.260
where we can't do[br]everything that we want to,
0:44:08.307,0:44:11.644
I want everybody to realize that everybody[br]can play a part in this.
0:44:12.111,0:44:14.931
And I think spreading the word about
0:44:14.931,0:44:19.947
what NASA's big handful[br]of operating missions are doing,
0:44:20.062,0:44:23.090
if you have access to…
0:44:23.575,0:44:27.229
If you are comfortable go out[br]and volunteer in a classroom.
0:44:27.524,0:44:30.676
Go make sure your taxi driver
0:44:30.676,0:44:33.933
or your waiter or waitress
0:44:34.467,0:44:37.084
know what's going on in space.
0:44:37.132,0:44:39.332
Make this part of everyday conversation
0:44:39.332,0:44:41.095
so people want to know what's next.
0:44:41.095,0:44:42.600
What are we doing?
0:44:42.600,0:44:45.140
Because in the big picture[br]of the federal budget,
0:44:45.188,0:44:48.210
this is not an expensive proposition[br]that we're talking about.
0:44:48.255,0:44:50.604
We just need to raise everybody's awareness
0:44:50.604,0:44:52.987
that this is affordable and exciting
0:44:52.987,0:44:55.191
and it paves the way for the next generation.
0:44:55.315,0:44:58.083
JM: So actually, you guys[br]will be happy to hear
0:44:58.083,0:45:01.038
that I have feedback from my twitter feed
0:45:01.038,0:45:03.926
and from my Google+ that we have[br]a couple classrooms
0:45:03.926,0:45:05.745
watching us right now.
0:45:06.041,0:45:09.174
I'm so happy that teachers[br]saw this and said,
0:45:09.174,0:45:11.509
let's just share about this.
0:45:12.537,0:45:15.182
The other thing… I do remember a question,
0:45:15.820,0:45:17.975
and to me the answer seems obvious,
0:45:17.975,0:45:21.271
but here's a question someone[br]on my twitter feed asked yesterday.
0:45:21.271,0:45:24.509
"So why are we going back to Mars?
0:45:24.594,0:45:29.582
"Why not set our sights on an already[br]predetermined Earth-like planet
0:45:29.620,0:45:32.284
"that is way out there, an exoplanet?"
0:45:32.303,0:45:33.760
So why Mars?
0:45:35.341,0:45:38.076
NS: I'll do the "Why Mars?" again,
0:45:38.076,0:45:43.141
and then I'll let Chris talk[br]about the next exoplanet.
0:45:43.570,0:45:45.525
We're doing Mars again because
0:45:45.525,0:45:48.980
what MAVEN is doing there[br]has never been done before.
0:45:49.037,0:45:50.914
There's never been a mission
0:45:50.914,0:45:53.847
that's basically looking at[br]where the atmosphere goes.
0:45:54.380,0:45:56.775
We've sent a large number of missions
0:45:56.775,0:45:59.988
that figured out that there was[br]a greater atmosphere in the past,
0:46:00.015,0:46:03.499
but this is just about the biggest[br]mystery on Mars, nowadays.
0:46:03.499,0:46:05.462
Where did the atmosphere go?
0:46:05.462,0:46:07.731
And none of the operating[br]missions can do that.
0:46:07.731,0:46:09.318
We've got to go back.
0:46:09.366,0:46:12.296
CI: And I would also,[br]just to echo and Segway,
0:46:12.296,0:46:15.799
I would say that there's so much[br]still to learn on Mars,
0:46:15.799,0:46:19.278
and Mars is indeed potentially[br]a habitable planet under the surface,
0:46:19.354,0:46:21.302
so we need to figure that out.
0:46:21.397,0:46:23.835
And we will always learn so much more
0:46:23.835,0:46:25.848
about a planet in the solar system,
0:46:25.848,0:46:28.797
than any exoplanet, however nearby.
0:46:29.168,0:46:31.208
It's just there's no comparison.
0:46:31.265,0:46:36.783
However, what happens to a planet,[br]because planets evolve and change
0:46:36.783,0:46:38.759
and Mars is the great example
0:46:38.759,0:46:41.048
is going to be true elsewhere too.
0:46:41.086,0:46:43.670
And so, as we start looking at our bodycount
0:46:43.670,0:46:45.555
of habitable and Earth-like planets
0:46:45.555,0:46:47.758
from Kepler and other missions,
0:46:47.796,0:46:49.556
the context for understanding them
0:46:49.556,0:46:52.630
when we have very little data,[br]really we just have a size or a mass,
0:46:52.630,0:46:54.847
and almost no other information
0:46:54.847,0:46:58.085
our context for understanding them[br]is still the solar system,
0:46:58.132,0:47:01.290
is still the terrestrial planets,[br]much closer to us
0:47:01.566,0:47:04.352
NS: We must develop the capability
0:47:04.352,0:47:07.099
to characterize those planets in greater detail.
0:47:07.175,0:47:09.521
James Webb's space telescope[br]will start to do that,
0:47:09.521,0:47:12.770
but it's a big technological challenge.
0:47:12.770,0:47:16.800
And, lot's of our favorite[br]engineers and designers
0:47:16.847,0:47:18.248
are working on it,
0:47:18.248,0:47:20.963
but at present it's a pretty[br]expensive proposition.
0:47:20.997,0:47:25.777
It's actually considerably cheaper[br]to continue learning more
0:47:25.872,0:47:28.134
within our own solar system
0:47:28.134,0:47:30.156
than it is to learn in great detail
0:47:30.156,0:47:34.287
about the wealth of worlds[br]that we now know are out there.
0:47:36.041,0:47:41.207
JM: So, we've been talking,[br]a little over 45 minutes.
0:47:41.426,0:47:44.828
I would like to give both of you[br]an opportunity
0:47:44.828,0:47:46.554
to express anything else
0:47:46.563,0:47:48.666
you'd like to express to our audience
0:47:48.666,0:47:51.336
or maybe something[br]I completely forgot to ask,
0:47:51.355,0:47:52.909
and then we will wrap things up.
0:47:52.909,0:47:54.622
So why don't we start with Nick?
0:47:54.641,0:47:56.709
NS: No, no, go to Chris[br]while I'm trying to…
0:47:56.709,0:47:58.306
JM: Go to Chris.
0:47:58.916,0:48:01.825
CI: Well, I just want to echo something
0:48:01.825,0:48:05.297
that we've touched on a few times,[br]which is, it feels like
0:48:05.297,0:48:09.275
solar system exploration,[br]study of planets nearby,
0:48:09.275,0:48:10.733
is a mature subject
0:48:10.733,0:48:13.747
that we've learned most[br]of what we might want to learn,
0:48:13.747,0:48:15.627
and that just simply isn't the case.
0:48:15.627,0:48:17.533
Even with our close neighbour Mars,
0:48:17.533,0:48:19.970
there're just a ton[br]of questions and mysteries.
0:48:19.970,0:48:21.697
And when we get to all those others,
0:48:21.697,0:48:23.562
the best guest is there're probably
0:48:23.562,0:48:25.741
a dozen habitable spots[br]in the solar system,
0:48:25.741,0:48:27.879
mostly in the outer solar sysem.
0:48:27.879,0:48:29.980
And we're almost[br]completely ignorant of those.
0:48:29.980,0:48:32.600
And so when it comes to going[br]to Titan or Europa
0:48:32.600,0:48:35.468
or these really fascinating destinations,
0:48:35.468,0:48:38.607
our level of ignorance[br]is still almost complete.
0:48:38.722,0:48:42.470
So it's still early days, actually,[br]for solar system exploration,
0:48:42.470,0:48:45.233
and especially in the context of biology,
0:48:45.300,0:48:48.011
and where we might find it[br]in the universe.
0:48:49.935,0:48:53.448
NS: And if I could just step back[br]for a broad perspective,
0:48:53.743,0:48:55.623
Carl Sagan said,
0:48:55.814,0:48:57.952
"There's one generation that gets
0:48:57.952,0:49:00.818
"to experience this transition of planets
0:49:00.818,0:49:03.630
"as points of light,[br]to worlds in their own right".
0:49:03.849,0:49:07.357
And men are ever getting a close look
0:49:07.357,0:49:11.148
at these worlds with the latest[br]generation of spacecraft.
0:49:11.148,0:49:13.893
My brother's a political scientist,
0:49:13.893,0:49:16.020
and he once said to me that
0:49:16.020,0:49:19.222
"Everything that I said[br]is going to be forgotten
0:49:19.222,0:49:20.984
"in decades or 100 years,
0:49:20.984,0:49:25.750
"but this transition of humans[br]becoming spacefaring,
0:49:25.750,0:49:29.357
"this is going to be remembered[br]for 1000 years."
0:49:29.595,0:49:31.819
People will talk about this age,
0:49:31.847,0:49:34.111
and so for all of us
0:49:34.111,0:49:38.139
to appreciate this incredible time[br]that we live in,
0:49:38.139,0:49:41.115
and this opportunity[br]that we are given to participate.
0:49:42.210,0:49:43.754
Get everybody onboard.
0:49:43.783,0:49:45.346
Spread the word.
0:49:45.346,0:49:48.854
This is a real halmark of the age
0:49:48.883,0:49:51.122
that we have the privilege of living in.
0:49:51.304,0:49:54.003
JM: That's amazing. My final question:
0:49:54.851,0:49:57.497
When are we sending humans to Mars?
0:49:58.097,0:50:02.603
NS: When I was growing up[br]I said I wanted to go to Mars
0:50:02.679,0:50:04.693
and raise chickens to find out
0:50:04.750,0:50:07.222
if they would grow larger in low-gravity.
0:50:08.089,0:50:12.525
It's become clear to me[br]that I won't have that opportunity.
0:50:12.659,0:50:17.366
I would love it, if one of my kids[br]had that chance.
0:50:17.366,0:50:20.397
I sure hope it doesn't go down[br]to the generation beyond that.
0:50:20.721,0:50:23.648
It's sometimes said that it's too expensive
0:50:23.648,0:50:25.500
to send humans to Mars,
0:50:25.500,0:50:28.675
but our nation has[br]apparently found the will
0:50:28.675,0:50:31.013
to spend that much money[br]on other projects
0:50:31.013,0:50:34.159
that I think, will not be remembered[br]in a thousand years,
0:50:34.159,0:50:39.090
and I would love for this effort[br]to change the focus of our nation,
0:50:39.090,0:50:41.176
and even the efforts of the world
0:50:41.176,0:50:42.973
to make that next grand step
0:50:42.973,0:50:45.937
because I think that it is human destiny.
0:50:46.022,0:50:50.267
Robots lead the way, but humans[br]can and must follow.
0:50:50.691,0:50:54.613
CI: And to answer your question directly[br]we're talking 20+ years.
0:50:54.889,0:50:56.887
And then again I think the private sector
0:50:56.896,0:50:59.691
is already starting to step up[br]and make ideas.
0:50:59.758,0:51:02.136
For instance,[br]there's a well-publisized idea
0:51:02.136,0:51:04.817
for a one-way trip,[br]which'd obviously save some money.
0:51:04.817,0:51:06.701
NASA first was outed on having
0:51:06.701,0:51:09.267
a very similar idea[br]sitting on their shelf,
0:51:09.267,0:51:11.865
but it's not good PR for NASA
0:51:12.751,0:51:15.149
to send astronauts of to die on a…
0:51:15.245,0:51:18.234
NS: Yeah, I actually think that the space frontier
0:51:18.311,0:51:20.585
will be conquered by humans,
0:51:20.633,0:51:23.379
when humans are allowed[br]to take the same kinds of risks
0:51:23.426,0:51:27.248
that they took when moving[br]to Colorado and California,
0:51:27.248,0:51:29.110
when coming to the American west.
0:51:29.110,0:51:30.914
Individuals took risks.
0:51:30.914,0:51:32.884
Many of them lost their lives doing it
0:51:32.884,0:51:36.962
but the way that they opened[br]for the rest of us
0:51:37.362,0:51:39.468
we'll remember forever.
0:51:39.620,0:51:41.534
I think it's like Chris says.
0:51:41.563,0:51:44.531
It's going to be the private sector[br]and individuals taking risks
0:51:44.531,0:51:47.607
that will allow us to cross that frontier.
0:51:47.725,0:51:51.214
IC: And if you want to evoke[br]the multi-generational future,
0:51:51.214,0:51:54.801
I recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's[br]Mars trilogy,
0:51:55.077,0:51:56.727
Mars: Red, Green, and Blue.
0:51:56.737,0:52:00.436
Amazing evocations,[br]not just of people on Mars,
0:52:00.436,0:52:03.287
but of the geology[br]and the atmosphere, and so on.
0:52:03.344,0:52:04.998
They are mesmerizing books.
0:52:05.055,0:52:07.441
JM: Thanks for the book recommendation
0:52:07.441,0:52:10.057
because that's one of my platforms.
0:52:10.057,0:52:12.239
I love to get people to read.
0:52:13.048,0:52:16.909
Thank you gentlemen for your input today.
0:52:17.443,0:52:19.660
And thanks to the MAVEN team.
0:52:19.698,0:52:22.291
We will wait for the anticipated launch.
0:52:22.367,0:52:24.211
But thank you guys for a project
0:52:24.211,0:52:27.092
that's on budget, or under budget,
0:52:27.111,0:52:28.889
and on time, or under time,
0:52:28.889,0:52:31.223
and you guys are just meeting[br]all these hallmarks
0:52:31.223,0:52:33.196
and making people happy.
0:52:33.282,0:52:35.261
They'll want to hire you again
0:52:35.366,0:52:38.233
NS: That's right. And let's go answer[br]some more big questions.
0:52:38.909,0:52:40.675
JM: Well, thank you very much,
0:52:40.694,0:52:43.070
all of you out there[br]in the audience for joining us
0:52:43.070,0:52:46.926
for this very enlightening[br]discussion about MAVEN.
0:52:47.068,0:52:50.982
And don't forget, we're looking out[br]towards November 14th
0:52:51.039,0:52:53.988
for Chris Hatfield to join us.
0:52:54.074,0:52:56.487
So, if you didn't hear,[br]his book is out today.
0:52:56.516,0:52:58.754
So, if you want to pick that up[br]and join us here
0:52:58.783,0:53:02.135
November 14th at noon[br]for a Scientific American chat with Chris.
0:53:02.211,0:53:04.716
We'll get more of the human side[br]of space travel,
0:53:04.716,0:53:06.713
and today, of course,[br]we were just talking
0:53:06.713,0:53:09.239
about unmanned, or robotic, space travel.
0:53:09.239,0:53:12.228
So, thank you, Chris, and thank you, Nick
0:53:12.932,0:53:14.507
NS: So long, everybody.
0:53:15.250,0:53:16.460
CI: Bye.