WEBVTT 00:00:01.750 --> 00:00:03.792 Chris Anderson: Dr. Jane Goodall, welcome. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:04.875 --> 00:00:06.143 Jane Goodall: Thank you, 00:00:06.167 --> 00:00:10.101 and I think, you know, we couldn't have a complete interview 00:00:10.125 --> 00:00:12.268 unless people know Mr. H is with me, 00:00:12.292 --> 00:00:14.417 because everybody knows Mr. H. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:16.083 --> 00:00:17.625 CA: Hello, Mr. H. 00:00:18.667 --> 00:00:20.934 In your TED Talk 17 years ago, 00:00:20.958 --> 00:00:26.684 you warned us about the dangers of humans crowding out the natural world. 00:00:26.708 --> 00:00:28.559 Is there any sense in which you feel 00:00:28.583 --> 00:00:32.476 that the current pandemic is kind of, nature striking back? NOTE Paragraph 00:00:32.500 --> 00:00:37.559 JG: It's very, very clear that these zoonotic diseases, 00:00:37.583 --> 00:00:42.518 like the corona and HIV/AIDS 00:00:42.542 --> 00:00:46.893 and all sorts of other diseases that we catch from animals, 00:00:46.917 --> 00:00:50.059 that's partly to do with destruction of the environment, 00:00:50.083 --> 00:00:54.059 which, as animals lose habitat, they get crowded together 00:00:54.083 --> 00:00:58.351 and sometimes that means that a virus from a reservoir species, 00:00:58.375 --> 00:01:01.434 where it's lived harmoniously for maybe hundreds of years, 00:01:01.458 --> 00:01:03.476 jumps into a new species, 00:01:03.500 --> 00:01:08.643 then you also get animals being pushed into closer contact with humans. 00:01:08.667 --> 00:01:14.643 And sometimes one of these animals that has caught a virus can -- 00:01:14.667 --> 00:01:18.893 you know, provides the opportunity for that virus to jump into people 00:01:18.917 --> 00:01:22.976 and create a new disease, like COVID-19. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:25.018 And in addition to that, 00:01:25.042 --> 00:01:27.851 we are so disrespecting animals. 00:01:27.875 --> 00:01:29.518 We hunt them, 00:01:29.542 --> 00:01:31.851 we kill them, we eat them, 00:01:31.875 --> 00:01:33.393 we traffic them, 00:01:33.417 --> 00:01:39.809 we send them off to the wild-animal markets 00:01:39.833 --> 00:01:41.101 in Asia, 00:01:41.125 --> 00:01:44.434 where they're in terrible, cramped conditions, in tiny cages, 00:01:44.458 --> 00:01:48.768 with people being contaminated with blood and urine and feces, 00:01:48.792 --> 00:01:53.434 ideal conditions for a virus to spill from an animal to an animal, 00:01:53.458 --> 00:01:55.184 or an animal to a person. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:55.208 --> 00:01:59.476 CA: I'd love to just dip backwards in time for a bit, 00:01:59.500 --> 00:02:01.393 because your story is so extraordinary. 00:02:01.417 --> 00:02:05.518 I mean, despite the arguably even more sexist attitudes of the 1960s, 00:02:05.542 --> 00:02:08.268 somehow you were able to break through 00:02:08.292 --> 00:02:11.643 and become one of the world's leading scientists, 00:02:11.667 --> 00:02:15.184 discovering this astonishing series of facts about chimpanzees, 00:02:15.208 --> 00:02:18.268 such as their tool use and so much more. 00:02:18.292 --> 00:02:20.893 What was it about you, do you think, 00:02:20.917 --> 00:02:23.976 that allowed you to make such a breakthrough? NOTE Paragraph 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.226 JG: Well, the thing is, I was born loving animals, 00:02:27.250 --> 00:02:30.393 and the most important thing was, I had a very supportive mother. 00:02:30.417 --> 00:02:33.059 She didn't get mad when she found earthworms in my bed, 00:02:33.083 --> 00:02:35.559 she just said they better be in the garden. 00:02:35.583 --> 00:02:38.309 And she didn't get mad when I disappeared for four hours 00:02:38.333 --> 00:02:41.268 and she called the police, and I was sitting in a hen house, 00:02:41.292 --> 00:02:44.768 because nobody would tell me where the hole was where the egg came out. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:44.792 --> 00:02:47.059 I had no dream of being a scientist, 00:02:47.083 --> 00:02:49.476 because women didn't do that sort of thing. 00:02:49.500 --> 00:02:52.726 In fact, there weren't any man doing it back then, either. 00:02:52.750 --> 00:02:54.684 And everybody laughed at me except Mom, 00:02:54.708 --> 00:02:58.393 who said, "If you really want this, you're going to have to work awfully hard, 00:02:58.417 --> 00:03:00.143 take advantage of every opportunity, 00:03:00.167 --> 00:03:02.393 if you don't give up, maybe you'll find a way." NOTE Paragraph 00:03:02.417 --> 00:03:06.518 CA: And somehow, you were able to kind of, earn the trust of chimpanzees 00:03:06.542 --> 00:03:10.292 in the way that no one else had. 00:03:11.167 --> 00:03:15.809 Looking back, what were the most exciting moments that you discovered 00:03:15.833 --> 00:03:19.417 or what is it that people still don't get about chimpanzees? NOTE Paragraph 00:03:20.333 --> 00:03:24.309 JG: Well, the thing is, you say, "See things nobody else had, 00:03:24.333 --> 00:03:25.601 get their trust." 00:03:25.625 --> 00:03:27.226 Nobody else had tried. 00:03:27.250 --> 00:03:29.018 Quite honestly. 00:03:29.042 --> 00:03:34.018 So, basically, I used the same techniques 00:03:34.042 --> 00:03:38.601 that I had to study the animals around my home when I was a child. 00:03:38.625 --> 00:03:40.184 Just sitting, patiently, 00:03:40.208 --> 00:03:42.643 not trying to get too close too quickly, 00:03:42.667 --> 00:03:47.226 but it was awful, because the money was only for six months. 00:03:47.250 --> 00:03:49.601 I mean, you can imagine how difficult to get money 00:03:49.625 --> 00:03:51.643 for a young girl with no degree, 00:03:51.667 --> 00:03:55.434 to go and do something as bizarre as sitting in a forest. 00:03:55.458 --> 00:03:56.934 And you know, finally, 00:03:56.958 --> 00:04:00.976 we got money for six months from an American philanthropist, 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:04.934 and I knew with time I'd get the chimps' trust, 00:04:04.958 --> 00:04:06.476 but did I have time? 00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:11.018 And weeks became months and then finally, after about four months, 00:04:11.042 --> 00:04:13.809 one chimpanzee began to lose his fear, 00:04:13.833 --> 00:04:16.934 and it was he that on one occasion I saw -- 00:04:16.958 --> 00:04:20.143 I still wasn't really close, but I had my binoculars -- 00:04:20.167 --> 00:04:25.309 and I saw him using and making tools to fish for termites. 00:04:25.333 --> 00:04:28.143 And although I wasn't terribly surprised, 00:04:28.167 --> 00:04:32.143 because I've read about things captive chimps could do -- 00:04:32.167 --> 00:04:34.184 but I knew that science believed 00:04:34.208 --> 00:04:37.559 that humans, and only humans, used and made tools. 00:04:37.583 --> 00:04:40.809 And I knew how excited [Dr. Louis] Leakey would be. 00:04:40.833 --> 00:04:42.559 And it was that observation 00:04:42.583 --> 00:04:45.643 that enabled him to go to the National Geographic, 00:04:45.667 --> 00:04:49.726 and they said, "OK, we'll continue to support the research," 00:04:49.750 --> 00:04:53.893 and they sent Hugo van Lawick, the photographer-filmmaker, 00:04:53.917 --> 00:04:56.559 to record what I was seeing. 00:04:56.583 --> 00:05:01.018 So a lot of scientists didn't want to believe the tool-using. 00:05:01.042 --> 00:05:04.101 In fact, one of them said I must have taught the chimps. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:04.125 --> 00:05:06.018 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:05:06.042 --> 00:05:08.934 Since I couldn't get near them, it would have been a miracle. 00:05:08.958 --> 00:05:11.559 But anyway, once they saw Hugo's film 00:05:11.583 --> 00:05:16.018 and that with all my descriptions of their behavior, 00:05:16.042 --> 00:05:19.351 the scientists had to start changing their minds. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:19.375 --> 00:05:22.018 CA: And since then, numerous other discoveries 00:05:22.042 --> 00:05:26.601 that placed chimpanzees much closer to humans than people cared to believe. 00:05:26.625 --> 00:05:29.976 I think I saw you say at one point that they have a sense of humor. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:32.684 How have you seen that expressed? NOTE Paragraph 00:05:32.708 --> 00:05:36.934 JG: Well, you see it when they're playing games, 00:05:36.958 --> 00:05:39.393 and there's a bigger one playing with a little one, 00:05:39.417 --> 00:05:41.809 and he's trailing a vine around a tree. 00:05:41.833 --> 00:05:44.684 And every time the little one is about to catch it, 00:05:44.708 --> 00:05:46.684 the bigger one pulls it away, 00:05:46.708 --> 00:05:48.476 and the little one starts crying 00:05:48.500 --> 00:05:50.268 and the big one starts laughing. 00:05:50.292 --> 00:05:51.750 So, you know. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:54.417 --> 00:05:59.809 CA: And then, Jane, you observed something much more troubling, 00:05:59.833 --> 00:06:04.559 which was these instances of chimpanzee gangs, 00:06:04.583 --> 00:06:10.684 tribes, groups, being brutally violent to each other. 00:06:10.708 --> 00:06:14.351 I'm curious how you process that. 00:06:14.375 --> 00:06:17.601 And whether it made you, kind of, 00:06:17.625 --> 00:06:20.149 I don't know, depressed about us, we're close to them, 00:06:20.173 --> 00:06:23.976 did it make you feel that violence is irredeemably 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.375 part of all the great apes, somehow? NOTE Paragraph 00:06:28.375 --> 00:06:30.976 JG: Well, it obviously is. 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.643 And my first encounter with human, what I call evil, 00:06:35.667 --> 00:06:37.309 was the end of the war 00:06:37.333 --> 00:06:40.101 and the pictures from the Holocaust. 00:06:40.125 --> 00:06:42.726 And you know, that really shocked me. 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:44.018 That changed who I was. 00:06:44.042 --> 00:06:46.351 I was 10, I think, at the time. 00:06:46.375 --> 00:06:48.851 And when the chimpanzees, 00:06:48.875 --> 00:06:52.018 when I realized they have this dark, brutal side, 00:06:52.042 --> 00:06:54.559 I thought they were like us but nicer. 00:06:54.583 --> 00:06:57.143 And then I realized they're even more like us 00:06:57.167 --> 00:06:58.684 than I had thought. 00:06:58.708 --> 00:07:02.684 And at that time, in the early '70s, 00:07:02.708 --> 00:07:03.976 it was very strange, 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:05.601 aggression, there was a big thing 00:07:05.625 --> 00:07:09.726 about, is aggression innate or learned. 00:07:09.750 --> 00:07:12.434 And it became political. 00:07:12.458 --> 00:07:15.893 And it was, I don't know, it was a very strange time, 00:07:15.917 --> 00:07:17.559 and I was coming out, saying, 00:07:17.583 --> 00:07:20.143 "No, I think aggression is definitely 00:07:20.167 --> 00:07:24.268 part of our inherited repertoire of behaviors." 00:07:24.292 --> 00:07:29.934 And I asked a very respected scientist what he really thought, 00:07:29.958 --> 00:07:32.351 because he was coming out on the clean slate, 00:07:32.375 --> 00:07:33.851 aggression is learned, 00:07:33.875 --> 00:07:38.018 and he said, "Jane, I'd rather not talk about what I really think." 00:07:38.042 --> 00:07:41.917 That was a big shock as far as science was concerned for me. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:42.792 --> 00:07:47.351 CA: I was brought up to believe a world of all things bright and beautiful. 00:07:47.375 --> 00:07:52.893 You know, numerous beautiful films of butterflies and bees and flowers, 00:07:52.917 --> 00:07:55.851 and you know, nature as this gorgeous landscape. 00:07:55.875 --> 00:08:01.893 And many environmentalists often seem to take the stance, 00:08:01.917 --> 00:08:06.059 "Yes, nature is pure, nature is beautiful, humans are bad," 00:08:06.083 --> 00:08:08.726 but then you have the kind of observations that you see, 00:08:08.750 --> 00:08:11.601 when you actually look at any part of nature in more detail, 00:08:11.625 --> 00:08:13.976 you see things to be terrified by, honestly. 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:16.393 What do you make of nature, how do you think of it, 00:08:16.417 --> 00:08:18.851 how should we think of it? NOTE Paragraph 00:08:18.875 --> 00:08:20.851 JG: Nature is, you know, 00:08:20.875 --> 00:08:24.809 I mean, you think of the whole spectrum of evolution, 00:08:24.833 --> 00:08:28.518 and there's something about going to a pristine place, 00:08:28.542 --> 00:08:33.143 and Africa was very pristine when I was young. 00:08:33.167 --> 00:08:36.101 And there were animals everywhere. 00:08:36.125 --> 00:08:40.018 And I never liked the fact that lions killed, 00:08:40.042 --> 00:08:42.559 they have to, I mean, that's what they do, 00:08:42.583 --> 00:08:46.393 if they didn't kill animals, they would die. 00:08:46.417 --> 00:08:50.101 And the big difference between them and us, I think, 00:08:50.125 --> 00:08:56.018 is that they do what they do because that's what they have to do. 00:08:56.042 --> 00:08:59.393 And we can plan to do things. 00:08:59.417 --> 00:09:01.184 Our plans are very different. 00:09:01.208 --> 00:09:05.226 We can plan to cut down a whole forest, 00:09:05.250 --> 00:09:07.726 because we want to sell the timber, 00:09:07.750 --> 00:09:10.101 or because we want to build another shopping mall, 00:09:10.125 --> 00:09:11.393 something like that. 00:09:11.417 --> 00:09:16.143 So our destruction of nature and our warfare, 00:09:16.167 --> 00:09:19.976 we're capable of evil because we can sit comfortably 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.934 and plan the torture of somebody far away. 00:09:22.958 --> 00:09:24.226 That's evil. 00:09:24.250 --> 00:09:27.893 Chimpanzees have a sort of primitive war, 00:09:27.917 --> 00:09:29.476 and they can be very aggressive, 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:30.893 but it's of the moment. 00:09:30.917 --> 00:09:32.393 It's how they feel. 00:09:32.417 --> 00:09:34.809 It's response to an emotion. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:34.833 --> 00:09:38.476 CA: So your observation of the sophistication of chimpanzees 00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:41.893 doesn't go as far as what some people would want to say 00:09:41.917 --> 00:09:43.643 is the sort of the human superpower, 00:09:43.667 --> 00:09:49.601 of being able to really simulate the future in our minds in great detail 00:09:49.625 --> 00:09:52.393 and make long-term plans. 00:09:52.417 --> 00:09:57.768 And act to encourage each other to achieve those long-term plans. 00:09:57.792 --> 00:10:01.226 That that feels, even to someone who spent so much time with chimpanzees, 00:10:01.250 --> 00:10:04.434 that feels like a fundamentally different skill set 00:10:04.458 --> 00:10:06.601 that we just have to take responsibility for 00:10:06.625 --> 00:10:09.434 and use much more wisely than we do. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:09.458 --> 00:10:11.351 JG: Yes, and I personally think, 00:10:11.375 --> 00:10:13.684 I mean, there's a lot of discussion about this, 00:10:13.708 --> 00:10:17.601 but I think it's a fact that we developed the way of communication 00:10:17.625 --> 00:10:19.393 that you and I are using. 00:10:19.417 --> 00:10:21.518 And because we have words, 00:10:21.542 --> 00:10:24.934 I mean, animal communication is way more sophisticated 00:10:24.958 --> 00:10:26.226 than we used to think. 00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:28.226 And chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans 00:10:28.250 --> 00:10:31.708 can learn human sign language of the Deaf. 00:10:32.792 --> 00:10:38.226 But we sort of grow up speaking whatever language it is. 00:10:38.250 --> 00:10:41.893 So I can tell you about things that you've never heard of. 00:10:41.917 --> 00:10:44.476 And a chimpanzee couldn't do that. 00:10:44.500 --> 00:10:49.726 And we can teach our children about abstract things. 00:10:49.750 --> 00:10:51.559 And chimpanzees couldn't do that. 00:10:51.583 --> 00:10:55.268 So yes, chimpanzees can do all sorts of clever things, 00:10:55.292 --> 00:10:59.893 and so can elephants and so can crows and so can octopuses, 00:10:59.917 --> 00:11:03.518 but we design rockets that go off to another planet 00:11:03.542 --> 00:11:06.101 and little robots taking photographs, 00:11:06.125 --> 00:11:10.893 and we've designed this extraordinary way of you and me talking 00:11:10.917 --> 00:11:13.059 in our different parts of the world. 00:11:13.083 --> 00:11:14.726 When I was young, when I grew up, 00:11:14.750 --> 00:11:17.559 there was no TV, there were no cell phones, 00:11:17.583 --> 00:11:19.434 there was no computers. 00:11:19.458 --> 00:11:20.893 It was such a different world, 00:11:20.917 --> 00:11:24.518 I had a pencil, pen and notebook, that was it. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:24.542 --> 00:11:27.393 CA: So just going back to this question about nature, 00:11:27.417 --> 00:11:28.989 because I think about this a lot, 00:11:29.013 --> 00:11:32.263 and I struggle with this, honestly. 00:11:33.208 --> 00:11:37.393 So much of your work, so much of so many people who I respect, 00:11:37.417 --> 00:11:44.226 is about this passion for trying not to screw up the natural world. 00:11:44.250 --> 00:11:47.101 So is it possible, is it healthy, is it essential, perhaps, 00:11:47.125 --> 00:11:51.976 to simultaneously accept that many aspects of nature 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:53.934 are terrifying, 00:11:53.958 --> 00:11:56.851 but also, I don't know, that it's awesome, 00:11:56.875 --> 00:12:02.018 and that some of the awesomeness comes from its potential to be terrifying 00:12:02.042 --> 00:12:06.934 and that it is also just breathtakingly beautiful, 00:12:06.958 --> 00:12:10.684 and that we cannot be ourselves, because we are part of nature, 00:12:10.708 --> 00:12:13.143 we cannot be whole 00:12:13.167 --> 00:12:17.434 unless we somehow embrace it and are part of it? 00:12:17.458 --> 00:12:22.226 Help me with the language, Jane, on how that relationship should be. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:26.351 JG: Well, I think one of the problems is, you know, as we developed our intellect, 00:12:26.375 --> 00:12:29.018 and we became better and better 00:12:29.042 --> 00:12:32.434 at modifying the environment for our own use, 00:12:32.458 --> 00:12:35.268 and creating fields and growing crops 00:12:35.292 --> 00:12:38.476 where it used to be forest or woodland, 00:12:38.500 --> 00:12:41.309 and you know, we won't go into that now, 00:12:41.333 --> 00:12:44.893 but we have this ability to change nature. 00:12:44.917 --> 00:12:49.351 And as we've moved more into towns and cities, 00:12:49.375 --> 00:12:53.351 and relied more on technology, 00:12:53.375 --> 00:12:56.976 many people feel so divorced from the natural world. 00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:59.559 And there's hundreds, thousands of children 00:12:59.583 --> 00:13:01.309 growing up in inner cities, 00:13:01.333 --> 00:13:04.059 where there basically isn't any nature, 00:13:04.083 --> 00:13:09.143 which is why this movement now to green our cities is so important. 00:13:09.167 --> 00:13:11.518 And you know, they've done experiments, 00:13:11.542 --> 00:13:14.809 I think it was in Chicago, I'm not quite sure, 00:13:14.833 --> 00:13:17.893 and there were various empty lots 00:13:17.917 --> 00:13:21.684 in a very violent part of town. 00:13:21.708 --> 00:13:24.768 So in some of those areas they made it green, 00:13:24.792 --> 00:13:29.809 they put trees and flowers and things, shrubs in these vacant lots. 00:13:29.833 --> 00:13:33.184 And the crime rate went right down. 00:13:33.208 --> 00:13:35.708 So then of course, they put trees in the other half. 00:13:36.917 --> 00:13:38.851 So it just shows, and also, 00:13:38.875 --> 00:13:41.643 there have been studies done showing that children 00:13:41.667 --> 00:13:45.917 really need green nature for good psychological development. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:46.875 --> 00:13:50.101 But we are, as you say, part of nature 00:13:50.125 --> 00:13:54.351 and we disrespect it, as we are, 00:13:54.375 --> 00:13:57.309 and that is so terrible for our children 00:13:57.333 --> 00:13:58.809 and our children's children, 00:13:58.833 --> 00:14:02.851 because we rely on nature for clean air, clean water, 00:14:02.875 --> 00:14:06.434 for regulating climate and rainfall. 00:14:06.458 --> 00:14:09.226 Look what we've done, look at the climate crisis. 00:14:09.250 --> 00:14:11.476 That's us. We did that. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:13.184 CA: So a little over 30 years ago, 00:14:13.208 --> 00:14:19.018 you made this shift from scientist mainly to activist mainly, I guess. 00:14:19.042 --> 00:14:20.292 Why? NOTE Paragraph 00:14:21.333 --> 00:14:26.809 JG: Conference in 1986, scientific one, I'd got my PhD by then 00:14:26.833 --> 00:14:30.559 and it was to find out how chimp behavior differed, if it did, 00:14:30.583 --> 00:14:32.143 from one environment to another. 00:14:32.167 --> 00:14:34.559 There were six study sites across Africa. 00:14:34.583 --> 00:14:38.268 So we thought, let’s bring these scientists together 00:14:38.292 --> 00:14:39.684 and explore this, 00:14:39.708 --> 00:14:41.226 which was fascinating. 00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:43.893 But we also had a session on conservation 00:14:43.917 --> 00:14:47.768 and a session on conditions in some captive situations 00:14:47.792 --> 00:14:49.893 like medical research. 00:14:49.917 --> 00:14:54.184 And those two sessions were so shocking to me. 00:14:54.208 --> 00:14:56.768 I went to the conference a a scientist, 00:14:56.792 --> 00:14:58.351 and I left as an activist. 00:14:58.375 --> 00:15:02.184 I didn't make the decision, something happened inside me. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:02.208 --> 00:15:05.726 CA: So you spent the last 34 years 00:15:05.750 --> 00:15:08.434 sort of tirelessly campaigning for a better relationship 00:15:08.458 --> 00:15:11.750 between people and nature. 00:15:12.667 --> 00:15:17.750 What should that relationship look like? NOTE Paragraph 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:23.809 JG: Well, you know, again you come up with all these problems. 00:15:23.833 --> 00:15:26.583 People have to have space to live. 00:15:27.625 --> 00:15:29.726 But I think the problem is 00:15:29.750 --> 00:15:33.309 that we've become, in the affluent societies, 00:15:33.333 --> 00:15:34.726 too greedy. 00:15:34.750 --> 00:15:40.018 I mean, honestly, who needs four houses with huge grounds? 00:15:40.042 --> 00:15:43.684 And why do we need yet another shopping mall? 00:15:43.708 --> 00:15:45.434 And so on and so on. 00:15:45.458 --> 00:15:50.434 So we are looking at short-term economic benefit, 00:15:50.458 --> 00:15:53.518 money has become a sort of god to worship, 00:15:53.542 --> 00:15:57.601 as we lose all spiritual connection with the natural world. 00:15:57.625 --> 00:16:03.351 And so we're looking for short-term monetary gain, or power, 00:16:03.375 --> 00:16:06.018 rather than the health of the planet 00:16:06.042 --> 00:16:08.083 and the future of our children. 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.101 We don't seem to care about that anymore. 00:16:12.125 --> 00:16:15.226 That's why I'll never stop fighting. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:15.250 --> 00:16:19.059 CA: I mean, in your work specifically on chimpanzee conservation, 00:16:19.083 --> 00:16:24.268 you've made it practice to put people at the center of that, 00:16:24.292 --> 00:16:26.393 local people, to engage them. 00:16:26.417 --> 00:16:27.684 How has that worked 00:16:27.708 --> 00:16:29.851 and do you think that's an essential idea 00:16:29.875 --> 00:16:32.934 if we're to succeed in protecting the planet? NOTE Paragraph 00:16:32.958 --> 00:16:35.434 JG: You know, after that famous conference, 00:16:35.458 --> 00:16:39.018 I thought, well, I must learn more about why chimps are vanishing in Africa 00:16:39.042 --> 00:16:40.893 and what's happening to the forest. 00:16:40.917 --> 00:16:45.976 So I got a bit of money together and went out to visit six range countries. 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:50.018 And learned a lot about the problems faced by chimps, you know, 00:16:50.042 --> 00:16:52.809 hunting for bushmeat and the live animal trade 00:16:52.833 --> 00:16:54.518 and caught in snares 00:16:54.542 --> 00:16:58.934 and human populations growing and needing more land 00:16:58.958 --> 00:17:02.684 for their crops and their cattle and their villages. 00:17:02.708 --> 00:17:07.434 But I was also learning about the plight faced by so many people. 00:17:07.458 --> 00:17:11.018 The absolute poverty, the lack of health and education, 00:17:11.042 --> 00:17:13.518 the degradation of the land. 00:17:13.542 --> 00:17:18.518 And it came to a head when I flew over the tiny Gombe National Park. 00:17:18.542 --> 00:17:22.809 It had been part of this equatorial forest belt right across Africa 00:17:22.833 --> 00:17:24.101 to the west coast, 00:17:24.125 --> 00:17:25.434 and in 1990, 00:17:25.458 --> 00:17:29.101 it was just this little island of forest, just tiny national park. 00:17:29.125 --> 00:17:31.018 All around, the hills were bare. 00:17:31.042 --> 00:17:32.768 And that's when it hit me. 00:17:32.792 --> 00:17:34.601 If we don't do something 00:17:34.625 --> 00:17:36.893 to help the people find ways of living 00:17:36.917 --> 00:17:39.518 without destroying their environment, 00:17:39.542 --> 00:17:42.226 we can't even try to save the chimps. 00:17:42.250 --> 00:17:45.976 So the Jane Goodall Institute began this program "Take Care," 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.018 we call it "TACARE." 00:17:48.042 --> 00:17:51.976 And it's our method of community-based conservation, 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.101 totally holistic. 00:17:54.125 --> 00:17:57.351 And we've now put the tools of conservation 00:17:57.375 --> 00:17:59.226 into the hand of the villagers, 00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:04.351 because most Tanzanian wild chimps are not in protected areas, 00:18:04.375 --> 00:18:07.143 they're just in the village forest reserves. 00:18:07.167 --> 00:18:12.434 And so, they now go and measure the health of their forest. 00:18:12.458 --> 00:18:14.684 They've understood now 00:18:14.708 --> 00:18:18.268 that protecting the forest isn't just for wildlife, 00:18:18.292 --> 00:18:19.768 it's their own future. 00:18:19.792 --> 00:18:22.226 That they need the forest. 00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:23.601 And they're very proud. 00:18:23.625 --> 00:18:25.726 The volunteers go to workshops, 00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:27.809 they learn how to use smartphones, 00:18:27.833 --> 00:18:32.601 they learn how to upload into platform and the cloud. 00:18:32.625 --> 00:18:35.476 And so it's all transparent. 00:18:35.500 --> 00:18:37.643 And the trees have come back, 00:18:37.667 --> 00:18:39.726 there's no bare hills anymore. 00:18:39.750 --> 00:18:44.476 They agreed to make a buffer zone around Gombe, 00:18:44.500 --> 00:18:47.893 so the chimps have more forest than they did in 1990. 00:18:47.917 --> 00:18:49.851 They're opening up corridors of forest 00:18:49.875 --> 00:18:55.268 to link the scattered chimp groups so that you don't get too much inbreeding. 00:18:55.292 --> 00:18:58.434 So yes, it's worked, and it's in six other countries now. 00:18:58.458 --> 00:18:59.726 Same thing. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:59.750 --> 00:19:05.351 CA: I mean, you've been this extraordinary tireless voice, all around the world, 00:19:05.375 --> 00:19:07.309 just traveling so much, 00:19:07.333 --> 00:19:10.601 speaking everywhere, inspiring people everywhere. 00:19:10.625 --> 00:19:15.601 How on earth do you find the energy, 00:19:15.625 --> 00:19:17.268 you know, the fire to do that, 00:19:17.292 --> 00:19:20.476 because that is exhausting to do, 00:19:20.500 --> 00:19:23.018 every meeting with lots of people, 00:19:23.042 --> 00:19:25.101 it is just physically exhausting, 00:19:25.125 --> 00:19:28.143 and yet, here you are, still doing it. 00:19:28.167 --> 00:19:30.125 How are you doing this, Jane? NOTE Paragraph 00:19:31.042 --> 00:19:36.393 JG: Well, I suppose, you know, I'm obstinate, I don't like giving up, 00:19:36.417 --> 00:19:41.684 but I'm not going to let these CEOs of big companies 00:19:41.708 --> 00:19:43.226 who are destroying the forests, 00:19:43.250 --> 00:19:49.809 or the politicians who are unraveling all the protections that were put in place 00:19:49.833 --> 00:19:51.143 by previous presidents, 00:19:51.167 --> 00:19:53.976 and you know who I'm talking about. 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.143 And you know, I'll go on fighting, 00:19:56.167 --> 00:20:00.268 I care about, I'm passionate about the wildlife. 00:20:00.292 --> 00:20:02.976 I'm passionate about the natural world. 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.434 I love forests, it hurts me to see them damaged. 00:20:07.458 --> 00:20:10.351 And I care passionately about children. 00:20:10.375 --> 00:20:12.434 And we're stealing their future. 00:20:12.458 --> 00:20:14.184 And I'm not going to give up. 00:20:14.208 --> 00:20:19.143 So I guess I'm blessed with good genes, that's a gift, 00:20:19.167 --> 00:20:22.768 and the other gift, which I discovered I had, 00:20:22.792 --> 00:20:24.226 was communication, 00:20:24.250 --> 00:20:26.893 whether it's writing or speaking. 00:20:26.917 --> 00:20:28.976 And so, you know, 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.893 if going around like this wasn't working, 00:20:31.917 --> 00:20:35.018 but every time I do a lecture, 00:20:35.042 --> 00:20:36.393 people come up and say, 00:20:36.417 --> 00:20:38.768 "Well, I had given up, but you've inspired me, 00:20:38.792 --> 00:20:41.059 I promise to do my bit." 00:20:41.083 --> 00:20:45.976 And we have our youth program "Roots and Shoots" now in 65 countries 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:47.559 and growing fast, 00:20:47.583 --> 00:20:48.851 all ages, 00:20:48.875 --> 00:20:52.018 all choosing projects to help people, animals, the environment, 00:20:52.042 --> 00:20:54.643 rolling up their sleeves and taking action. 00:20:54.667 --> 00:20:57.809 And you know, they look at you with shining eyes, 00:20:57.833 --> 00:21:00.309 wanting to tell Dr. Jane what they've been doing 00:21:00.333 --> 00:21:02.101 to make the world a better place. 00:21:02.125 --> 00:21:03.934 How can I let them down? NOTE Paragraph 00:21:03.958 --> 00:21:07.226 CA: I mean, as you look at the planet's future, 00:21:07.250 --> 00:21:08.893 what worries you most, actually, 00:21:08.917 --> 00:21:12.292 what scares you most about where we're at? NOTE Paragraph 00:21:13.750 --> 00:21:19.101 JG: Well, the fact that we have a small window of time, I believe, 00:21:19.125 --> 00:21:22.643 when we can at least start healing some of the harm 00:21:22.667 --> 00:21:25.726 and slowing down climate change. 00:21:25.750 --> 00:21:27.726 But it is closing, 00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:32.934 and we've seen what happens with the lockdown around the world 00:21:32.958 --> 00:21:35.018 because of COVID-19: 00:21:35.042 --> 00:21:37.226 clear skies over cities, 00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:41.101 some people breathing clean air that they've never breathed before 00:21:41.125 --> 00:21:44.059 and looking up at the shining skies at night, 00:21:44.083 --> 00:21:46.684 which they've never seen properly before. 00:21:46.708 --> 00:21:49.059 And you know, 00:21:49.083 --> 00:21:52.143 so what worries me most 00:21:52.167 --> 00:21:55.476 is how to get enough people, 00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:57.786 people understand, but they're not taking action, 00:21:57.810 --> 00:22:00.434 how to get enough people to take action? NOTE Paragraph 00:22:00.458 --> 00:22:06.184 CA: National Geographic just launched this extraordinary film about you, 00:22:06.208 --> 00:22:09.768 highlighting your work over six decades. 00:22:09.792 --> 00:22:13.208 It's titled "Jane Goodall: The Hope." 00:22:14.042 --> 00:22:16.018 So what is the hope, Jane? NOTE Paragraph 00:22:16.042 --> 00:22:17.309 JG: Well, the hope, 00:22:17.333 --> 00:22:19.393 my greatest hope is all these young people. 00:22:19.417 --> 00:22:21.976 I mean, in China, people will come up and say, 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.143 "Well, of course I care about the environment, 00:22:24.167 --> 00:22:26.434 I was in 'Roots and Shoots' in primary school." 00:22:26.458 --> 00:22:29.768 And you know, we have "Roots and Shoots" just hanging on to the values 00:22:29.792 --> 00:22:34.601 and they're so enthusiastic once they know the problems 00:22:34.625 --> 00:22:36.476 and they're empowered to take action, 00:22:36.500 --> 00:22:40.667 they are clearing the streams, removing invasive species humanely. 00:22:41.958 --> 00:22:43.684 And they have so many ideas. 00:22:43.708 --> 00:22:48.393 And then there's, you know, this extraordinary intellect of ours. 00:22:48.417 --> 00:22:52.476 We're beginning to use it to come up with technology 00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:55.351 that really will help us to live in greater harmony, 00:22:55.375 --> 00:22:56.976 and in our individual lives, 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:01.101 let's think about the consequences of what we do each day. 00:23:01.125 --> 00:23:03.226 What do we buy, where did it come from, 00:23:03.250 --> 00:23:04.809 how was it made? 00:23:04.833 --> 00:23:07.768 Did it harm the environment, was it cruel to animals? 00:23:07.792 --> 00:23:10.143 Is it cheap because of child slave labor? 00:23:10.167 --> 00:23:12.018 Make ethical choices. 00:23:12.042 --> 00:23:15.559 Which you can't do if you're living in poverty, by the way. 00:23:15.583 --> 00:23:18.268 And then finally, this indomitable spirit 00:23:18.292 --> 00:23:20.893 of people who tackle what seems impossible 00:23:20.917 --> 00:23:23.351 and won't give up. 00:23:23.375 --> 00:23:26.476 You can't give up when you have those ... 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:29.018 But you know, there are things that I can't fight. 00:23:29.042 --> 00:23:31.625 I can't fight corruption. 00:23:32.833 --> 00:23:36.958 I can't fight military regimes and dictators. 00:23:38.625 --> 00:23:40.476 So I can only do what I can do, 00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:43.893 and if we all do the bits that we can do, 00:23:43.917 --> 00:23:47.809 surely that makes a whole that eventually will win out. NOTE Paragraph 00:23:47.833 --> 00:23:49.226 CA: So, last question, Jane. 00:23:49.250 --> 00:23:51.559 If there was one idea, one thought, 00:23:51.583 --> 00:23:56.309 one seed you could plant in the minds of everyone watching this, 00:23:56.333 --> 00:23:58.184 what would that be? NOTE Paragraph 00:23:58.208 --> 00:24:02.351 JG: You know, just remember that every day you live, 00:24:02.375 --> 00:24:04.726 you make an impact on the planet. 00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:07.018 You can't help making an impact. 00:24:07.042 --> 00:24:10.601 And at least, unless you're living in extreme poverty, 00:24:10.625 --> 00:24:13.851 you have a choice as to what sort of impact you make. 00:24:13.875 --> 00:24:15.809 Even in poverty you have a choice, 00:24:15.833 --> 00:24:19.726 but when we are more affluent, we have a greater choice. 00:24:19.750 --> 00:24:22.643 And if we all make ethical choices, 00:24:22.667 --> 00:24:25.809 then we start moving towards a world 00:24:25.833 --> 00:24:30.893 that will be not quite so desperate to leave to our great-grandchildren. 00:24:30.917 --> 00:24:35.684 That's, I think, something for everybody. 00:24:35.708 --> 00:24:38.684 Because a lot of people understand what's happening, 00:24:38.708 --> 00:24:41.476 but they feel helpless and hopeless, and what can they do, 00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:44.059 so they do nothing and they become apathetic. 00:24:44.083 --> 00:24:46.875 And that is a huge danger, apathy. NOTE Paragraph 00:24:47.750 --> 00:24:49.934 CA: Dr. Jane Goodall, wow. 00:24:49.958 --> 00:24:53.934 I really want to thank you for your extraordinary life, 00:24:53.958 --> 00:24:55.976 for all that you've done 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.858 and for spending this time with us now. NOTE Paragraph 00:24:57.882 --> 00:24:59.268 Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:24:59.292 --> 00:25:00.542 JG: Thank you.