0:00:00.080,0:00:02.136
Cyndi Stivers: So, future of storytelling.

0:00:02.160,0:00:03.976
Before we do the future,

0:00:04.000,0:00:07.896
let's talk about what is never[br]going to change about storytelling.

0:00:07.920,0:00:10.016
Shonda Rhimes:[br]What's never going to change.

0:00:10.040,0:00:12.776
Obviously, I think good stories[br]are never going to change,

0:00:12.800,0:00:16.576
the need for people to gather together[br]and exchange their stories

0:00:16.600,0:00:19.816
and to talk about the things[br]that feel universal,

0:00:19.840,0:00:22.776
the idea that we all feel[br]a compelling need to watch stories,

0:00:22.800,0:00:24.760
to tell stories, to share stories --

0:00:26.000,0:00:27.976
sort of the gathering around the campfire

0:00:28.000,0:00:30.296
to discuss the things[br]that tell each one of us

0:00:30.320,0:00:32.000
that we are not alone in the world.

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Those things to me[br]are never going to change.

0:00:35.040,0:00:38.200
That essence of storytelling[br]is never going to change.

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CS: OK. In preparation[br]for this conversation,

0:00:41.760,0:00:43.656
I checked in with Susan Lyne,

0:00:43.680,0:00:45.776
who was running ABC Entertainment

0:00:45.800,0:00:48.576
when you were working[br]on "Grey's Anatomy" --

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SR: Yes.

0:00:49.840,0:00:52.736
CS: And she said that there was[br]this indelible memory she had

0:00:52.760,0:00:54.736
of your casting process,

0:00:54.760,0:00:57.416
where without discussing it[br]with any of the executives,

0:00:57.440,0:00:59.816
you got people coming in[br]to read for your scripts,

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and every one of them[br]was the full range of humanity,

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you did not type anyone in any way,

0:01:07.240,0:01:10.056
and that it was completely surprising.

0:01:10.080,0:01:14.736
So she said, in addition[br]to retraining the studio executives,

0:01:14.760,0:01:16.856
you also, she feels,

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and I think this is -- I agree,

0:01:19.440,0:01:23.840
retrained the expectations[br]of the American TV audience.

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So what else does the audience[br]not yet realize that it needs?

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SR: What else does it not yet realize?

0:01:32.360,0:01:35.496
Well, I mean, I don't think[br]we're anywhere near there yet.

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I mean, we're still in a place

0:01:37.280,0:01:44.216
in which we're far, far behind what looks[br]like the real world in actuality.

0:01:44.240,0:01:47.936
I wasn't bringing in[br]a bunch of actors

0:01:47.960,0:01:50.576
who looked very different from one another

0:01:50.600,0:01:52.696
simply because I was[br]trying to make a point,

0:01:52.720,0:01:55.056
and I wasn't trying[br]to do anything special.

0:01:55.080,0:01:59.056
It never occurred to me[br]that that was new, different or weird.

0:01:59.080,0:02:02.136
I just brought in actors[br]because I thought they were interesting

0:02:02.160,0:02:05.976
and to me, the idea that it[br]was completely surprising to everybody --

0:02:06.000,0:02:08.175
I didn't know that for a while.

0:02:08.199,0:02:11.416
I just thought: these are the actors[br]I want to see play these parts.

0:02:11.440,0:02:13.656
I want to see what[br]they look like if they read.

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We'll see what happens.

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So I think the interesting thing[br]that happens is

0:02:18.360,0:02:20.896
that when you look at the world[br]through another lens,

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when you're not the person[br]normally in charge of things,

0:02:25.200,0:02:26.840
it just comes out a different way.

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CS: So you now have[br]this big machine that you run,

0:02:32.840,0:02:35.856
as a titan -- as you know,[br]last year when she gave her talk --

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she's a titan.

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So what do you think[br]is going to happen as we go on?

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There's a huge amount of money[br]involved in producing these shows.

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While the tools of making stories[br]have gone and gotten greatly democratized,

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there's still this large distribution:

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people who rent networks,[br]who rent the audience to advertisers

0:03:00.080,0:03:01.776
and make it all pay.

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How do you see the business model changing[br]now that anyone can be a storyteller?

0:03:07.040,0:03:08.776
SR: I think it's changing every day.

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I mean, the rapid, rapid change[br]that's happening is amazing.

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And I feel -- the panic is palpable,

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and I don't mean that in a bad way.

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I think it's kind of exciting.

0:03:18.640,0:03:23.296
The idea that there's[br]sort of an equalizer happening,

0:03:23.320,0:03:27.096
that sort of means that anybody[br]can make something, is wonderful.

0:03:27.120,0:03:32.856
I think there's some scary in the idea[br]that you can't find the good work now.

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There's so much work out there.

0:03:34.400,0:03:37.496
I think there's something like[br]417 dramas on television right now

0:03:37.520,0:03:40.056
at any given time in any given place,

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but you can't find them.

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You can't find the good ones.

0:03:42.800,0:03:46.456
So there's a lot of bad stuff out there[br]because everybody can make something.

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It's like if everybody painted a painting.

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You know, there's not[br]that many good painters.

0:03:51.040,0:03:54.056
But finding the good stories,[br]the good shows,

0:03:54.080,0:03:55.656
is harder and harder and harder.

0:03:55.680,0:03:58.296
Because if you have[br]one tiny show over here on AMC

0:03:58.320,0:04:00.216
and one tiny show over here over there,

0:04:00.240,0:04:02.576
finding where they are[br]becomes much harder.

0:04:02.600,0:04:04.456
So I think that ferreting out the gems

0:04:04.480,0:04:07.576
and finding out who made[br]the great webisode and who made this,

0:04:07.600,0:04:09.696
it's -- I mean, think[br]about the poor critics

0:04:09.720,0:04:11.416
who now are spending 24 hours a day

0:04:11.440,0:04:13.496
trapped in their homes[br]watching everything.

0:04:13.520,0:04:15.616
It's not an easy job right now.

0:04:15.640,0:04:19.216
So the distribution engines[br]are getting more and more vast,

0:04:19.240,0:04:22.176
but finding the good programming[br]for everybody in the audience

0:04:22.200,0:04:23.416
is getting harder.

0:04:23.440,0:04:25.216
And unlike the news,

0:04:25.240,0:04:28.776
where everything's getting[br]winnowed down to just who you are,

0:04:28.800,0:04:30.416
television seems to be getting --

0:04:30.440,0:04:34.376
and by television I mean anything[br]you can watch, television shows on --

0:04:34.400,0:04:36.616
seems to be getting[br]wider and wider and wider.

0:04:36.640,0:04:39.296
And so anybody's making stories,

0:04:39.320,0:04:41.616
and the geniuses are sometimes hidden.

0:04:41.640,0:04:44.416
But it's going to be harder to find,

0:04:44.440,0:04:46.456
and at some point that will collapse.

0:04:46.480,0:04:48.216
People keep talking about peak TV.

0:04:48.240,0:04:50.216
I don't know when that's going to happen.

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I think at some point[br]it'll collapse a little bit

0:04:52.720,0:04:54.616
and we'll, sort of, come back together.

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I don't know if it[br]will be network television.

0:04:56.840,0:04:58.880
I don't know if that model is sustainable.

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CS: What about the model

0:05:01.000,0:05:06.440
that Amazon and Netflix are throwing[br]a lot of money around right now.

0:05:07.520,0:05:09.816
SR: That is true.

0:05:09.840,0:05:11.496
I think it's an interesting model.

0:05:11.520,0:05:13.616
I think there's[br]something exciting about it.

0:05:13.640,0:05:16.776
For content creators, I think[br]there's something exciting about it.

0:05:16.800,0:05:19.536
For the world, I think[br]there's something exciting about it.

0:05:19.560,0:05:21.296
The idea that there are programs now

0:05:21.320,0:05:24.776
that can be in multiple languages[br]with characters from all over the world

0:05:24.800,0:05:27.776
that are appealing and come out[br]for everybody at the same time

0:05:27.800,0:05:29.216
is exciting.

0:05:29.240,0:05:33.736
I mean, I think the international sense[br]that television can now take on

0:05:33.760,0:05:34.976
makes sense to me,

0:05:35.000,0:05:36.616
that programming can now take on.

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Television so much is made for, like --[br]here's our American audience.

0:05:39.920,0:05:41.176
We make these shows,

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and then they shove them[br]out into the world

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and hope for the best,

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as opposed to really thinking[br]about the fact that America is not it.

0:05:48.520,0:05:51.256
I mean, we love ourselves[br]and everything, but it's not i.

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And we should be[br]taking into account the fact

0:05:54.480,0:05:56.976
that there are all[br]of these other places in the world

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that we should be interested in[br]while we're telling stories.

0:06:00.040,0:06:02.120
It makes the world smaller.

0:06:03.520,0:06:04.736
I don't know.

0:06:04.760,0:06:09.736
I think it pushes forward the idea[br]that the world is a universal place,

0:06:09.760,0:06:11.696
and our stories become universal things.

0:06:11.720,0:06:12.960
We stop being other.

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CS: You've pioneered, as far as I can see,

0:06:17.480,0:06:20.096
interesting ways to launch new shows, too.

0:06:20.120,0:06:23.136
I mean, when you[br]launched "Scandal" in 2012,

0:06:23.160,0:06:26.616
there was this amazing groundswell[br]of support on Twitter

0:06:26.640,0:06:29.776
the likes of which nobody had seen before.

0:06:29.800,0:06:32.216
Do you have any other[br]tricks up your sleeve

0:06:32.240,0:06:34.376
when you launch your next one?

0:06:34.400,0:06:36.536
What do you think[br]will happen in that regard?

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SR: We do have some interesting ideas.

0:06:39.040,0:06:42.176
We have a show called "Still Star-Crossed"[br]coming out this summer.

0:06:42.200,0:06:44.136
We have some interesting ideas for that.

0:06:44.160,0:06:46.896
I'm not sure if we're going[br]to be able to do them in time.

0:06:46.920,0:06:48.136
I thought they were fun.

0:06:48.160,0:06:50.336
But the idea[br]that we would live-tweet our show

0:06:50.360,0:06:52.536
was really just us thinking[br]that would be fun.

0:06:52.560,0:06:56.096
We didn't realize that the critics[br]would start to live-tweet along with us.

0:06:56.120,0:06:58.496
But the fans -- getting people[br]to be a part of it,

0:06:58.520,0:07:00.056
making it more of a campfire --

0:07:00.080,0:07:02.216
you know, when you're all[br]on Twitter together

0:07:02.240,0:07:03.816
and you're all talking together,

0:07:03.840,0:07:05.496
it is more of a shared experience,

0:07:05.520,0:07:07.656
and finding other ways[br]to make that possible

0:07:07.680,0:07:10.016
and finding other ways[br]to make people feel engaged

0:07:10.040,0:07:11.240
is important.

0:07:12.320,0:07:15.960
CS: So when you have[br]all those different people making stories

0:07:16.960,0:07:19.256
and only some of them[br]are going to break through

0:07:19.280,0:07:21.056
and get that audience somehow,

0:07:21.080,0:07:24.056
how do you think[br]storytellers will get paid?

0:07:24.080,0:07:27.016
SR: I actually have been struggling[br]with this concept as well.

0:07:27.040,0:07:29.136
Is it going to be a subscriber model?

0:07:29.160,0:07:33.816
Are people going to say, like, I'm going[br]to watch this particular person's shows,

0:07:33.840,0:07:35.576
and that's how we're going to do it?

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CS: I think we should buy[br]a passport to Shondaland. Right?

0:07:38.360,0:07:41.616
SR: I don't know about that, but yeah.[br]That's a lot more work for me.

0:07:41.640,0:07:44.456
I do think that there are[br]going to be different ways,

0:07:44.480,0:07:45.976
but I don't know necessarily.

0:07:46.000,0:07:48.656
I mean, I'll be honest and say[br]a lot of content creators

0:07:48.680,0:07:52.096
are not necessarily interested[br]in being distributors,

0:07:52.120,0:07:55.336
mainly because what I dream of doing

0:07:55.360,0:07:56.776
is creating content.

0:07:56.800,0:07:58.656
I really love to create content.

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I want to get paid for it

0:07:59.920,0:08:03.096
and I want to get paid the money[br]that I deserve to get paid for it,

0:08:03.120,0:08:05.056
and there's a hard part in finding that.

0:08:05.080,0:08:07.616
But I also want it to be made possible

0:08:07.640,0:08:10.616
for, you know,[br]the people who work with me,

0:08:10.640,0:08:11.976
the people who work for me,

0:08:12.000,0:08:15.376
everybody to sort of get paid in a way,[br]and they're all making a living.

0:08:15.400,0:08:18.600
How it gets distributed[br]is getting harder and harder.

0:08:20.000,0:08:22.616
CS: How about the many new tools,

0:08:22.640,0:08:25.856
you know, VR, AR ...

0:08:25.880,0:08:29.896
I find it fascinating[br]that you can't really binge-watch,

0:08:29.920,0:08:33.176
you can't fast-forward in those things.

0:08:33.200,0:08:36.336
What do you see as the future[br]of those for storytelling?

0:08:36.360,0:08:39.096
SR: I spent a lot of time in the past year

0:08:39.120,0:08:40.696
just exploring those,

0:08:40.720,0:08:43.376
getting lots of demonstrations[br]and paying attention.

0:08:43.400,0:08:45.216
I find them fascinating,

0:08:45.240,0:08:47.216
mainly because I think that --

0:08:47.240,0:08:49.536
I think most people[br]think of them for gaming,

0:08:49.560,0:08:52.256
I think most people think of them[br]for things like action,

0:08:52.280,0:08:54.936
and I think that there is[br]a sense of intimacy

0:08:54.960,0:08:58.856
that is very present in those things,

0:08:58.880,0:09:01.376
the idea that -- picture this,

0:09:01.400,0:09:04.896
you can sit there[br]and have a conversation with Fitz,

0:09:04.920,0:09:07.096
or at least sit there[br]while Fitz talks to you,

0:09:07.120,0:09:09.016
President Fitzgerald Grant III,

0:09:09.040,0:09:10.336
while he talks to you

0:09:10.360,0:09:12.496
about why he's making[br]a choice that he makes,

0:09:12.520,0:09:14.136
and it's a very heartfelt moment.

0:09:14.160,0:09:16.736
And instead of you watching[br]a television screen,

0:09:16.760,0:09:19.976
you're sitting there next to him,[br]and he's having this conversation.

0:09:20.000,0:09:21.656
Now, you fall in love with the man

0:09:21.680,0:09:23.816
while he's doing it[br]from a television screen.

0:09:23.840,0:09:25.216
Imagine sitting next to him,

0:09:25.240,0:09:29.296
or being with a character like Huck[br]who's about to execute somebody.

0:09:29.320,0:09:30.816
And instead of having a scene

0:09:30.840,0:09:34.656
where, you know, he's talking[br]to another character very rapidly,

0:09:34.680,0:09:38.056
he goes into a closet and turns to you[br]and tells you, you know,

0:09:38.080,0:09:40.696
what's going to happen[br]and why he's afraid and nervous.

0:09:40.720,0:09:43.736
It's a little more like theater,[br]and I'm not sure it would work,

0:09:43.760,0:09:46.456
but I'm fascinating by the concept[br]of something like that

0:09:46.480,0:09:48.456
and what that would mean for an audience.

0:09:48.480,0:09:51.176
And to get to play with those ideas[br]would be interesting,

0:09:51.200,0:09:55.616
and I think, you know, for my audience,[br]the people who watch my shows,

0:09:55.640,0:09:57.936
which is, you know, women 12 to 75,

0:09:57.960,0:10:00.640
there's something interesting[br]in there for them.

0:10:02.720,0:10:05.496
CS: And how about[br]the input of the audience?

0:10:05.520,0:10:07.336
How interested are you in the things

0:10:07.360,0:10:10.496
where the audience[br]can actually go up to a certain point

0:10:10.520,0:10:14.176
and then decide, oh wait,[br]I'm going to choose my own adventure.

0:10:14.200,0:10:17.136
I'm going to run off with Fitz[br]or I'm going to run off with --

0:10:17.160,0:10:19.376
SR: Oh, the choose-[br]your-own-adventure stories.

0:10:19.400,0:10:20.856
I have a hard time with those,

0:10:20.880,0:10:24.016
and not necessarily because[br]I want to be in control of everything,

0:10:24.040,0:10:27.416
but because when I'm watching television[br]or I'm watching a movie,

0:10:27.440,0:10:32.256
I know for a fact[br]that a story is not as good

0:10:32.280,0:10:35.056
when I have control[br]over exactly what's going to happen

0:10:35.080,0:10:36.816
to somebody else's character.

0:10:36.840,0:10:40.616
You know, if I could tell you exactly[br]what I wanted to happen to Walter White,

0:10:40.640,0:10:44.216
that's great, but the story[br]is not the same, and it's not as powerful.

0:10:44.240,0:10:46.816
You know, if I'm in charge[br]of how "The Sopranos" ends,

0:10:46.840,0:10:50.016
then that's lovely and I have an ending[br]that's nice and satisfying,

0:10:50.040,0:10:53.216
but it's not the same story[br]and it's not the same emotional impact.

0:10:53.240,0:10:56.616
CS: I can't stop imagining[br]what that might be.

0:10:56.640,0:10:58.456
Sorry, you're losing me for a minute.

0:10:58.480,0:11:01.056
SR: But what's wonderful is[br]I don't get to imagine it,

0:11:01.080,0:11:03.216
because Vince has his own ending,

0:11:03.240,0:11:06.776
and it makes it really powerful[br]to know that somebody else has told.

0:11:06.800,0:11:09.056
You know, if you could[br]decide that, you know,

0:11:09.080,0:11:11.296
in "Jaws," the shark wins or something,

0:11:11.320,0:11:14.416
it doesn't do what it needs to do for you.

0:11:14.440,0:11:16.155
The story is the story that is told,

0:11:16.179,0:11:18.896
and you can walk away angry[br]and you can walk away debating

0:11:18.920,0:11:20.376
and you can walk away arguing,

0:11:20.400,0:11:21.640
but that's why it works.

0:11:22.280,0:11:23.536
That is why it's art.

0:11:23.560,0:11:25.376
Otherwise, it's just a game,

0:11:25.400,0:11:28.416
and games can be art,[br]but in a very different way.

0:11:28.440,0:11:32.016
CS: Gamers who actually[br]sell the right to sit there

0:11:32.040,0:11:34.176
and comment on what's happening,

0:11:34.200,0:11:37.176
to me that's more community[br]than storytelling.

0:11:37.200,0:11:39.176
SR: And that is its own form of campfire.

0:11:39.200,0:11:42.336
I don't discount that[br]as a form of storytelling,

0:11:42.360,0:11:44.760
but it is a group form, I suppose.

0:11:46.200,0:11:49.656
CS: All right,[br]what about the super-super --

0:11:49.680,0:11:52.896
the fact that everything's[br]getting shorter, shorter, shorter.

0:11:52.920,0:11:56.176
And, you know, Snapchat[br]now has something it calls shows

0:11:56.200,0:11:57.800
that are one minute long.

0:11:59.080,0:12:00.320
SR: It's interesting.

0:12:02.880,0:12:05.480
Part of me thinks[br]it sounds like commercials.

0:12:06.320,0:12:09.096
I mean, it does -- like, sponsored by.

0:12:09.120,0:12:11.736
But part of me also gets it completely.

0:12:11.760,0:12:13.856
There's something[br]really wonderful about it.

0:12:13.880,0:12:15.176
If you think about a world

0:12:15.200,0:12:18.096
in which most people[br]are watching television on their phones,

0:12:18.120,0:12:19.976
if you think about a place like India,

0:12:20.000,0:12:21.736
where most of the input is coming in

0:12:21.760,0:12:24.136
and that's where[br]most of the product is coming in,

0:12:24.160,0:12:25.416
shorter makes sense.

0:12:25.440,0:12:28.976
If you can charge people more[br]for shorter periods of content,

0:12:29.000,0:12:32.256
some distributor has figured out[br]a way to make a lot more money.

0:12:32.280,0:12:34.296
If you're making content,

0:12:34.320,0:12:37.216
it costs less money[br]to make it and put it out there.

0:12:37.240,0:12:38.456
And, by the way,

0:12:38.480,0:12:42.976
if you're 14 and have[br]a short attention span, like my daughter,

0:12:43.000,0:12:45.736
that's what you want to see,[br]that's what you want to make,

0:12:45.760,0:12:46.976
that's how it works.

0:12:47.000,0:12:51.216
And if you do it right[br]and it actually feels like narrative,

0:12:51.240,0:12:53.560
people will hang on for it[br]no matter what you do.

0:12:54.560,0:12:56.456
CS: I'm glad you raised your daughters,

0:12:56.480,0:13:01.296
because I am wondering how are they[br]going to consume entertainment,

0:13:01.320,0:13:03.576
and also not just entertainment,

0:13:03.600,0:13:04.800
but news, too.

0:13:05.960,0:13:08.936
When they're not -- I mean,[br]the algorithmic robot overlords

0:13:08.960,0:13:12.056
are going to feed them[br]what they've already done.

0:13:12.080,0:13:16.680
How do you think we will correct for that[br]and make people well-rounded citizens?

0:13:17.760,0:13:19.936
SR: Well, me and how I correct for it

0:13:19.960,0:13:22.736
is completely different[br]than how somebody else might do it.

0:13:22.760,0:13:24.856
CS: Feel free to speculate.

0:13:24.880,0:13:27.856
SR: I really don't know[br]how we're going to do it in the future.

0:13:27.880,0:13:31.296
I mean, my poor children have been[br]the subject of all of my experiments.

0:13:31.320,0:13:33.696
We're still doing[br]what I call "Amish summers"

0:13:33.720,0:13:35.456
where I turn off all electronics

0:13:35.480,0:13:37.536
and pack away[br]all their computers and stuff

0:13:37.560,0:13:40.536
and watch them scream for a while[br]until they settle down

0:13:40.560,0:13:43.320
into, like, an electronic-free summer.

0:13:44.280,0:13:46.976
But honestly, it's a very hard world

0:13:47.000,0:13:49.016
in which now, as grown-ups,

0:13:49.040,0:13:52.176
we're so interested[br]in watching our own thing,

0:13:52.200,0:13:55.376
and we don't even know[br]that we're being fed, sometimes,

0:13:55.400,0:13:57.136
just our own opinions.

0:13:57.160,0:13:58.856
You know, the way it's working now,

0:13:58.880,0:14:00.136
you're watching a feed,

0:14:00.160,0:14:01.776
and the feeds are being corrected

0:14:01.800,0:14:03.936
so that you're only getting[br]your own opinions

0:14:03.960,0:14:06.496
and you're feeling[br]more and more right about yourself.

0:14:06.520,0:14:08.376
So how do you really start to discern?

0:14:08.400,0:14:10.216
It's getting a little bit disturbing.

0:14:10.240,0:14:13.056
So maybe it'll overcorrect,[br]maybe it'll all explode,

0:14:13.080,0:14:14.720
or maybe we'll all just become --

0:14:16.080,0:14:17.616
I hate to be negative about it,

0:14:17.640,0:14:21.576
but maybe we'll all[br]just become more idiotic.

0:14:21.600,0:14:23.336
(Cyndi laughs)

0:14:23.360,0:14:26.776
CS: Yeah, can you picture[br]any corrective that you could do

0:14:26.800,0:14:29.696
with scripted, fictional work?

0:14:29.720,0:14:33.376
SR: I think a lot about the fact[br]that television has the power

0:14:33.400,0:14:35.136
to educate people in a powerful way,

0:14:35.160,0:14:37.016
and when you're watching television --

0:14:37.040,0:14:40.296
for instance, they do studies[br]about medical shows.

0:14:40.320,0:14:42.456
I think it's 87 percent,[br]87 percent of people

0:14:42.480,0:14:45.856
get most of their knowledge[br]about medicine and medical facts

0:14:45.880,0:14:47.336
from medical shows,

0:14:47.360,0:14:49.496
much more so than[br]they do from their doctors,

0:14:49.520,0:14:50.896
than from articles.

0:14:50.920,0:14:54.336
So we work really hard to be accurate,[br]and every time we make a mistake,

0:14:54.360,0:14:57.176
I feel really guilty,[br]like we're going to do something bad,

0:14:57.200,0:14:59.856
but we also give a lot[br]of good medical information.

0:14:59.880,0:15:02.936
There are so many other ways[br]to give information on those shows.

0:15:02.960,0:15:04.336
People are being entertained

0:15:04.360,0:15:06.416
and maybe they don't want[br]to read the news,

0:15:06.440,0:15:09.856
but there are a lot of ways to give[br]fair information out on those shows,

0:15:09.880,0:15:14.496
not in some creepy, like,[br]we're going to control people's minds way,

0:15:14.520,0:15:17.376
but in a way that's sort of[br]very interesting and intelligent

0:15:17.400,0:15:20.856
and not about pushing[br]one side's version or the other,

0:15:20.880,0:15:22.216
like, giving out the truth.

0:15:22.240,0:15:24.176
It would be strange, though,

0:15:24.200,0:15:27.936
if television drama[br]was how we were giving the news.

0:15:27.960,0:15:29.216
CS: It would be strange,

0:15:29.240,0:15:32.456
but I gather a lot of what[br]you've written as fiction

0:15:32.480,0:15:34.880
has become prediction this season?

0:15:35.560,0:15:38.816
SR: You know, "Scandal" has been[br]very disturbing for that reason.

0:15:38.840,0:15:41.816
We have this show[br]that's about politics gone mad,

0:15:41.840,0:15:44.776
and basically the way[br]we've always told the show --

0:15:44.800,0:15:47.176
you know, everybody[br]pays attention to the papers.

0:15:47.200,0:15:49.336
We read everything.[br]We talk about everything.

0:15:49.360,0:15:51.296
We have lots of friends in Washington.

0:15:51.320,0:15:54.176
And we'd always sort of[br]done our show as a speculation.

0:15:54.200,0:15:55.696
We'd sit in the room and think,

0:15:55.720,0:15:57.976
what would happen[br]if the wheels came off the bus

0:15:58.000,0:15:59.296
and everything went crazy?

0:15:59.320,0:16:00.856
And that was always great,

0:16:00.880,0:16:03.816
except now it felt like[br]the wheels were coming off the bus

0:16:03.840,0:16:05.656
and things were actually going crazy,

0:16:05.680,0:16:08.656
so the things that we were speculating[br]were really coming true.

0:16:08.680,0:16:10.056
I mean, our season this year

0:16:10.080,0:16:13.856
was going to end with the Russians[br]controlling the American election,

0:16:13.880,0:16:16.536
and we'd written it, we'd planned for it,

0:16:16.560,0:16:17.776
it was all there,

0:16:17.800,0:16:21.616
and then the Russians were suspected[br]of being involved in the American election

0:16:21.640,0:16:24.976
and we suddenly had to change[br]what we were going to do for our season.

0:16:25.000,0:16:26.336
I walked in and I was like,

0:16:26.360,0:16:29.216
"That scene where our mystery woman[br]starts speaking Russian?

0:16:29.240,0:16:32.096
We have to fix that[br]and figure out what we're going to do."

0:16:32.120,0:16:33.776
That just comes from extrapolating

0:16:33.800,0:16:36.016
out from what we thought[br]was going to happen,

0:16:36.040,0:16:37.520
or what we thought was crazy.

0:16:38.520,0:16:39.816
CS: That's great.

0:16:39.840,0:16:44.736
So where else in US or elsewhere[br]in the world do you look?

0:16:44.760,0:16:47.216
Who is doing interesting[br]storytelling right now?

0:16:47.240,0:16:50.256
SR: I don't know, there's a lot[br]of interesting stuff out there.

0:16:50.280,0:16:53.216
Obviously British television[br]is always amazing

0:16:53.240,0:16:55.856
and always does interesting things.

0:16:55.880,0:16:58.176
I don't get to watch a lot of TV,

0:16:58.200,0:17:00.616
mainly because I'm busy working.

0:17:00.640,0:17:04.256
And I pretty much try not to watch[br]very much television at all,

0:17:04.280,0:17:07.175
even American television,[br]until I'm done with a season,

0:17:07.200,0:17:09.695
because things start[br]to creep into my head otherwise.

0:17:09.720,0:17:11.656
I start to wonder, like,

0:17:11.680,0:17:15.096
why can't our characters wear crowns[br]and talk about being on a throne?

0:17:15.119,0:17:16.776
It gets crazy.

0:17:16.800,0:17:20.536
So I try not to watch much[br]until the seasons are over.

0:17:20.560,0:17:24.296
But I do think that there's a lot of[br]interesting European television out there.

0:17:24.319,0:17:26.215
I was at the International Emmys

0:17:26.240,0:17:29.216
and looking around and seeing[br]the stuff that they were showing,

0:17:29.240,0:17:30.656
and I was kind of fascinated.

0:17:30.680,0:17:33.416
There's some stuff[br]I want to watch and check out.

0:17:33.440,0:17:34.696
CS: Can you imagine --

0:17:34.720,0:17:38.256
I know that you don't spend a lot of time[br]thinking about tech stuff,

0:17:38.280,0:17:41.296
but you know how a few years ago[br]we had someone here at TED

0:17:41.320,0:17:43.576
talking about seeing,

0:17:43.600,0:17:49.736
wearing Google Glass and seeing[br]your TV shows essentially in your eye?

0:17:49.760,0:17:52.056
Do you ever fantasize when, you know --

0:17:52.080,0:17:54.536
the little girl[br]who sat on the pantry floor

0:17:54.560,0:17:56.296
in your parents' house,

0:17:56.320,0:17:58.920
did you ever imagine any other medium?

0:18:00.200,0:18:01.656
Or would you now?

0:18:01.680,0:18:03.016
SR: Any other medium.

0:18:03.040,0:18:04.736
For storytelling, other than books?

0:18:04.760,0:18:07.576
I mean, I grew up wanting[br]to be Toni Morrison, so no.

0:18:07.600,0:18:09.576
I mean, I didn't even imagine television.

0:18:09.600,0:18:13.456
So the idea that there could be[br]some bigger world,

0:18:13.480,0:18:15.656
some more magical way of making things ---

0:18:15.680,0:18:17.936
I'm always excited[br]when new technology comes out

0:18:17.960,0:18:20.976
and I'm always the first one[br]to want to try it.

0:18:21.000,0:18:24.176
The possibilities feel endless[br]and exciting right now,

0:18:24.200,0:18:25.640
which is what excites me.

0:18:27.040,0:18:30.096
We're in this sort of Wild West period,[br]to me, it feels like,

0:18:30.120,0:18:32.536
because nobody knows[br]what we're going to settle on.

0:18:32.560,0:18:34.776
You can put stories anywhere right now

0:18:34.800,0:18:36.256
and that's cool to me,

0:18:36.280,0:18:40.416
and it feels like once we figure out[br]how to get the technology

0:18:40.440,0:18:43.896
and the creativity[br]of storytelling to meet,

0:18:43.920,0:18:45.349
the possibilities are endless.

0:18:46.280,0:18:51.016
CS: And also the technology has enabled[br]the thing I briefly flew by earlier,

0:18:51.040,0:18:54.016
binge-viewing,[br]which is a recent phenomenon,

0:18:54.040,0:18:56.216
since you've been doing shows, right?

0:18:56.240,0:19:00.936
And how do you think does that change[br]the storytelling process at all?

0:19:00.960,0:19:04.776
You always had a bible[br]for the whole season beforehand, right?

0:19:04.800,0:19:08.136
SR: No, I just always knew[br]where we were going to end.

0:19:08.160,0:19:10.496
So for me,

0:19:10.520,0:19:12.496
the only way I can really comment on that

0:19:12.520,0:19:17.216
is that I have a show[br]that's been going on for 14 seasons

0:19:17.240,0:19:20.536
and so there are the people[br]who have been watching it for 14 seasons,

0:19:20.560,0:19:24.096
and then there are the 12-year-old girls[br]I'd encounter in the grocery store

0:19:24.120,0:19:28.096
who had watched[br]297 episodes in three weeks.

0:19:28.120,0:19:30.936
Seriously, and that's a very different[br]experience for them,

0:19:30.960,0:19:32.896
because they've been inside of something

0:19:32.920,0:19:36.336
really intensely for[br]a very short period of time

0:19:36.360,0:19:37.856
in a very intense way,

0:19:37.880,0:19:40.816
and to them the story[br]has a completely different arc

0:19:40.840,0:19:42.496
and a completely different meaning

0:19:42.520,0:19:44.096
because it never had any breaks.

0:19:44.120,0:19:47.456
CS: It's like visiting a country[br]and then leaving it. It's a strange --

0:19:47.480,0:19:50.536
SR: It's like reading an amazing novel[br]and then putting it down.

0:19:50.560,0:19:53.616
I think that is the beauty[br]of the experience.

0:19:53.640,0:19:56.576
You don't necessarily have to watch[br]something for 14 seasons.

0:19:56.600,0:19:59.280
It's not necessarily[br]the way everything's supposed to be.

0:20:00.320,0:20:03.920
CS: Is there any topic[br]that you don't think we should touch?

0:20:04.600,0:20:06.776
SR: I don't think[br]I think of story that way.

0:20:06.800,0:20:09.976
I think of story in terms of character[br]and what characters would do

0:20:10.000,0:20:13.216
and what characters need to do[br]in order to make them move forward,

0:20:13.240,0:20:16.416
so I'm never really thinking of story[br]in terms of just plot,

0:20:16.440,0:20:19.376
and when writers come[br]into my writer's room and pitch me plot,

0:20:19.400,0:20:21.496
I say, "You're not speaking English."

0:20:21.520,0:20:22.936
Like, that's the thing I say.

0:20:22.960,0:20:25.576
We're not speaking English.[br]I need to hear what's real.

0:20:25.600,0:20:27.336
And so I don't think of it that way.

0:20:27.360,0:20:30.696
I don't know if there's a way[br]to think there's something I wouldn't do

0:20:30.720,0:20:34.336
because that feels like I'm plucking[br]pieces of plot off a wall or something.

0:20:34.360,0:20:37.496
CS: That's great. To what extent[br]do you think you will use --

0:20:37.520,0:20:40.456
You know, you recently went[br]on the board of Planned Parenthood

0:20:40.480,0:20:43.176
and got involved[br]in the Hillary Clinton campaign.

0:20:43.200,0:20:46.816
To what extent do you think[br]you will use your storytelling

0:20:46.840,0:20:48.576
in the real world

0:20:48.600,0:20:50.040
to effect change?

0:20:52.000,0:20:53.960
SR: Well, you know, there's --

0:20:55.320,0:20:56.896
That's an intense subject to me,

0:20:56.920,0:20:59.696
because I feel like the lack of narrative

0:20:59.720,0:21:05.696
that a lot of people have is difficult.

0:21:05.720,0:21:07.896
You know, like,[br]there's a lot of organizations

0:21:07.920,0:21:11.936
that don't have a positive narrative[br]that they've created for themselves

0:21:11.960,0:21:13.280
that would help them.

0:21:14.000,0:21:15.816
There's a lot of campaigns

0:21:15.840,0:21:19.456
that could be helped[br]with a better narrative.

0:21:19.480,0:21:21.976
The Democrats could do a lot

0:21:22.000,0:21:24.096
with a very strong[br]narrative for themselves.

0:21:24.120,0:21:26.536
There's a lot of different things[br]that could happen

0:21:26.560,0:21:28.376
in terms of using storytelling voice,

0:21:28.400,0:21:30.296
and I don't mean that in a fiction way,

0:21:30.320,0:21:34.456
I mean that in a same way[br]that any speechwriter would mean it.

0:21:34.480,0:21:35.696
And I see that,

0:21:35.720,0:21:39.896
but I don't necessarily know[br]that that's, like, my job to do that.

0:21:39.920,0:21:41.136
CS: All right.

0:21:41.160,0:21:43.776
Please help me thank Shonda.[br]SR: Thank you.

0:21:43.800,0:21:45.280
(Applause)