Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories
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0:00 - 0:03[Music]
Intro: The Guardian -
0:09 - 0:11Welcome to Science Weekly.
-
0:12 - 0:14We're following the Covid-19 outbreak and
-
0:14 - 0:18exploring some of the scientific questions
that have come out of it. -
0:19 - 0:22In today's episode, we are looking
at conspiracy theories: -
0:22 - 0:26Now, many people are getting
their information about coronavirus -
0:26 - 0:27through social media.
-
0:27 - 0:31But not everything that's shared online
can be trusted. -
0:31 - 0:355G mast on fire. **** the 5G!
Yeah! -
0:35 - 0:37It lowers your immunity
and runs people down! -
0:37 - 0:41The coronavirus pandemic is opening up
weird new horizons -
0:41 - 0:43for online conspiracy theorists.
-
0:43 - 0:48The virus was bio-engineered in a lab
by scientists, to be used as a weapon -
0:48 - 0:50or a form of population control.
-
0:50 - 0:52Hi guys, do you know
what you're doing now? -
0:52 - 0:55You're laying 5G. Yes.
So, you know that kills people? -
0:55 - 0:58It absorbs oxygen.
That's just nonsense! -
0:58 - 1:00Dangerous nonsense as well.
-
1:00 - 1:035G was a favourite target
of conspiracy theorists, -
1:03 - 1:05long before the new coronavirus appeared.
And now, -
1:06 - 1:08the myths have just been
tweaked a bit. -
1:09 - 1:11It's not merely an opinion
or an interesting conspiracy, -
1:11 - 1:13it's just bollocks.
-
1:15 - 1:19So what is it about conspiracy theories
that makes them so appealing -
1:19 - 1:20in a time of crisis?
-
1:20 - 1:22And how can we best combat them?
-
1:23 - 1:25I'm Ian Sample, the science editor
at The Guardian, -
1:26 - 1:27and this is Science Weekly.
-
1:31 - 1:33I'm Dr Daniel Jolley.
-
1:33 - 1:37I'm a senior lecturer in psychology
based at Northumbria University -
1:37 - 1:43in Newcastle in the UK and my expertise is
in the psychology of conspiracy theories. -
1:43 - 1:45Hi Dan, how are you doing?
-
1:45 - 1:47I'm doing well
thanks so much for having me here. -
1:47 - 1:49So Dan, let's start with the basics,
-
1:49 - 1:54what is a conspiracy theory,
as opposed to misinformation, say? -
1:54 - 1:58So the whole difference
with a conspiracy theory is the idea -
1:58 - 2:04that there is a powerful group plotting
something secret for their own gain. -
2:04 - 2:10So something can just be fake, that
there is no hidden motive behind it. -
2:10 - 2:12I mean there is a cardinal difference,
-
2:12 - 2:15it's pointing the finger
at a group of people -
2:15 - 2:19and blaming them for their wrongdoings,
blaming them for the virus, for example. -
2:20 - 2:22What is it about conspiracy theories,
generally, -
2:22 - 2:25that makes them so appealing to us?
-
2:25 - 2:28Well, conspiracy theories in general
have been shown to arise -
2:28 - 2:34in moments of crisis, when we have the
need to feel in control, to feel certain. -
2:34 - 2:38And in these kind of rapid crises
we feel threatened, -
2:38 - 2:40we feel unsure of what is happening,
-
2:40 - 2:43which is exactly what is happening
with Covid-19 -
2:43 - 2:45I always thought that believing
in conspiracy theories -
2:45 - 2:49would make people feel more anxious,
but it sounds like, actually, -
2:49 - 2:50they have the opposite effect.
-
2:50 - 2:53Well, it's a really interesting
point there. -
2:54 - 2:57People who have this need to feel
in control, -
2:57 - 3:00the influence on them actually may
just be quite temporal. -
3:00 - 3:03They may seem appealing,
but they're not satisfying. -
3:03 - 3:07Could be shown that people who are
exposed to conspiracy theories -
3:07 - 3:10actually have further mistrust
of those around them. -
3:10 - 3:13It actually increases their feeling
of anxiety. -
3:13 - 3:17Often it is because if you don't subscribe
to one conspiracy belief, -
3:17 - 3:19you then start questioning other things,
-
3:20 - 3:22which means its kind of ramping up
your mistrust, -
3:22 - 3:28and you kind of feel a feeling of
uncertainty of you living in your society. -
3:28 - 3:32So when they emerge in times of crisis,
they may temporarily -
3:32 - 3:35make us feel more secure
but that will not be long-lasting. -
3:36 - 3:39This must be
a bit of a boom time for you, -
3:39 - 3:42as someone who studies conspiracy theories
I mean, we've seen, -
3:42 - 3:45you know, a bunch of them around recently,
from 5G masts, -
3:45 - 3:49man-made viruses coming out of
Chinese labs. I mean, -
3:49 - 3:53what is it about a pandemic
that seems to drive so many? -
3:54 - 3:58Covid-19 is not unique in regards to
having conspiracy theories bloom about it. -
4:01 - 4:03Thinking back to Zika, 2015,
-
4:03 - 4:07there were conspiracy theories suggesting
Zika was a man-made weapon. -
4:08 - 4:12Zika is a mosquito-transmitted virus
that has led to travel warnings -
4:12 - 4:14in South America and Caribbean countries.
-
4:14 - 4:18Is Zika caused by
genetically modified mosquitoes? -
4:18 - 4:22We're fact-checking this conspiracy theory
making the rounds on Facebook. -
4:23 - 4:25It's fair that the conspiracy now to
emerge, -
4:25 - 4:28when people are talking about extreme
uncertainty. -
4:28 - 4:34So when they felt uncertain, they now (??)
conspiracy theories was more blooming. -
4:34 - 4:36And the same thing is happening with
COVID-19. -
4:36 - 4:40The Trump administration has repeatedly
pushed the narrative that the Coronavirus -
4:41 - 4:46may have escaped from a Chinese laboratory
in Wuhan, rather than originating with an -
4:46 - 4:50animal in a seafood market in Wuhan, which
is the leading medical theory. -
4:51 - 4:55Because the world is definitely chaotic,
and it offers some kind of tangible -
4:56 - 4:58personal group to blame for
what is happening. -
5:01 - 5:06It sounds like, then, that it's
pretty typical to see conspiracy theories -
5:06 - 5:09spring up around any big event.
-
5:09 - 5:13Do you think we're just seeing more now or
we're aware of more now, because they're -
5:13 - 5:15spreading through social media?
-
5:15 - 5:19There's no hard data that
demonstrates that today with the -
5:19 - 5:23internet, conspiracy theories are more
popular. So it may just be us assuming -
5:23 - 5:27they are. I think it's important, though,
to really look into this, and to see the -
5:27 - 5:32peril that social media can have. Thinking
about the 5G conspiracy, it seemed to -
5:32 - 5:38emerge from social media, where the
algorithms and Facebook picked up chatter -
5:38 - 5:43with regards to 5G, and brought it into
the trending. And then, during videos -
5:43 - 5:49people in the comments were talking about
the masts and how one way to stop COVID is -
5:49 - 5:53by the masts and pulling them down, etc.
So that's something that's potentially -
5:53 - 5:59quite novel in that that fast interaction
may have actually sped up the kind of -
5:59 - 6:01insurgence of the conspiracy.
It's a real -
6:03 - 6:04interesting problem
-
6:05 - 6:06with regards to
-
6:06 - 6:07Facebook and
-
6:07 - 6:07social media
-
6:07 - 6:12in general, and how they deal with
conspiracy theories, because someone's conspiracy -
6:12 - 6:18theory is someone's truth, in essence. So
it's how do we define what a conspiracy -
6:18 - 6:22theory is. And indeed, by banning, for
example, conspiracy theories on platforms -
6:23 - 6:27will just reaffirm the suspicions that
people have, that they're trying to hide -
6:27 - 6:32something. So you may actually increase
people's conspiracy theorizing, because -
6:32 - 6:38they are being silenced. So it's that
balance of insuring there's a space and a -
6:38 - 6:42platform for people to have free speech,
to be able to discuss issues, and to, you -
6:42 - 6:47know, question things, which I think is
important that we question, but then the -
6:47 - 6:51balance comes by that things aren't made
into the trending pages that are not based -
6:51 - 6:58on truth. So right now, Facebook and etc.,
are taking down content that they see to -
6:58 - 7:04be inciting violence, and that can
actually be a hinder to curbing COVID-19, -
7:04 - 7:08which is think is a positive first step,
but it's not going to fix the issue as a -
7:08 - 7:10broad issue in the future.
-
7:11 - 7:14So maybe,
thinking about the individual as well, -
7:14 - 7:20and insuring the individual has the skill
sets to really ask the questions, but also -
7:20 - 7:25evaluate the evidence. So we know those
people who lack critical thinking -
7:25 - 7:29abilities are more likely to believe in
conspiracy theories, and we also know that -
7:29 - 7:33people who in believe in conspiracies is
because they want to understand -
7:33 - 7:37the world, but they're struggling to
evaluate the evidence. So potentially us -
7:37 - 7:43trying to instil those skill sets, may
mean that they're able to resist the -
7:43 - 7:47conspiracy narrative. Let's talk a bit
more about the psychology of people who -
7:48 - 7:52believe in conspiracy theories or tend to
believe in them. Are there characteristics -
7:53 - 7:59or personality traits that make people
maybe more susceptible to these kinds of -
7:59 - 8:01theories than others?
-
8:01 - 8:05There are a range of different needs
that are met by conspiracy theories, -
8:05 - 8:10while there's also kind of a social
element whereby we want to affirm -
8:10 - 8:15ourselves and also the groups that we
belong in. And interestingly, research in -
8:15 - 8:20America has found that in regards to
politics, the conspiracy theories switch -
8:21 - 8:26depending on who is in power. So it's very
much a prophecies in play here, where -
8:26 - 8:31you're just affirming your identity, the
others, those are the ones who are -
8:31 - 8:34conspiring, and that can change depending
on the context. -
8:34 - 8:38It sounds like some other sort of
traits might come into play as well, -
8:37 - 8:44around how people see themselves, their
social self-image, but also whether -
8:44 - 8:46people have been sort of marginalized in
the past? -
8:46 - 8:52Absolutely. So, research has found that
being a narcissist is more predictively -
8:52 - 8:56believing in conspiracy theories,
and also, it has been shown that people -
8:56 - 8:57who are from disadvantaged groups,
-
8:58 - 9:01because if you have received
discrimination in the past, -
9:01 - 9:04you may be more likely to perceive
that people are out to get you. -
9:04 - 9:07Because once upon a time, maybe they were.
-
9:08 - 9:12So prior experiences may also play a role
in making you more susceptible. -
9:12 - 9:16And then, when you're in an environment
that increases your uncertainty, -
9:16 - 9:19increases your threat, like COVID-19,
-
9:19 - 9:23you may be more susceptible
to subscribe to these conspiracy theories. -
9:24 - 9:27And indeed, a consistent finding
in the literature is -
9:27 - 9:31that if you believe in one conspiracy,
you believe in many others. -
9:31 - 9:33Also, interestingly,
researchers find that -
9:33 - 9:38you can believe in mutually exclusive
conspiracy theories. Because, it's all -
9:38 - 9:42based around this world view that
conspiracy theories in the world. So that -
9:42 - 9:48means that someone may believe that the
virus was human-made, but also believing -
9:48 - 9:52it is caused by 5G. Whilst these two
things can't necessarily happen at the -
9:52 - 9:58same time, it's in this process if you
feel distrust, of society, of people who -
9:58 - 10:01we see to be in power, you can subscribe
to these ideas. [Music] -
10:06 - 10:10When I've seen conspiracy theorists
talking about their beliefs, it's clear -
10:10 - 10:16that there's a real urge to pull together
strands of evidence, and to collect -
10:16 - 10:21evidence, and say, pull together these
sort of desperate things, and many of them -
10:21 - 10:27seem to see themselves as like, the real
critical thinkers, but I'm wondering what -
10:27 - 10:31kind of biases are coming into play there,
that are actually within those people, to -
10:31 - 10:32make them believe these kinds of theories.
-
10:33 - 10:37(DJ) One of the biases is confirmation
bias, that we're all susceptible to. -
10:38 - 10:43This is the idea that we only really
listen to evidence that supports our prior -
10:43 - 10:48beliefs. Things that go against it, that
discredit our beliefs, we ignore. -
10:51 - 10:56There's also biases based around
personality bias, with COVID-19, it's such -
10:56 - 11:02a large event, worldwide, to explain this
as something from animals doesn't really -
11:02 - 11:07make sense. But to explain this as a
conspiracy where it was human-made, -
11:08 - 11:11the proportionality matches the cause,
it all kind of fits together. -
11:15 - 11:21So, we can, in situations where these
events arise, be more drawn to conspiracy -
11:21 - 11:25narratives. We then stay in our echo
chambers in our online world. -
11:26 - 11:31It can be tough debating and arguing
with people who believe in conspiracy -
11:31 - 11:36theories, and okay, some of them are
harmless, but some of them really aren't. -
11:37 - 11:42I mean, as someone who really studies
them, do you have a sense of how best -
11:42 - 11:45we can combat them, the ones that are
dangerous? -
11:45 - 11:49Interventions are really challenging,
but of course, as you say, they're really -
11:49 - 11:55important, so potentially targeting the
general population, and targeting those -
11:55 - 11:59who are hardened conspiracy theorists,
may be slightly different. -
11:59 - 12:06So for example, we know that using counter
arguments, giving people facts, can reduce -
12:06 - 12:12belief in conspiracy theories. But, if you
harbor a conspiracy belief, and you see -
12:12 - 12:17some counter material from the government,
you are going to discredit that, because -
12:17 - 12:22of your confirmation bias. So indeed, for
others, it may be having people become -
12:22 - 12:27trusted messengers, where you're not
aggressive, but instead, talk to them -
12:27 - 12:31about their beliefs, get them to really
kind of think hard about the evidence -
12:31 - 12:35that they are, you know, really kind of
suggesting is the be and end all, and -
12:35 - 12:40that maybe that kind of thinking process
and get them to re-evaluate may start -
12:40 - 12:44changing their beliefs. Of course, this
I'm sure would work for the general -
12:44 - 12:50population as well, so I think with
ensuring that the landscape on Twitter, on -
12:50 - 12:55Facebook is full of facts is really
important, but then still acknowledging -
12:55 - 12:59that those who are on the hardened end
of the conspiracy theorizing may distrust -
12:59 - 13:04that straight away. So it's definitely a
challenge, but I think it's important to -
13:04 - 13:05really evaluate.
-
13:05 - 13:10Dan, finally, how do you think you
fair in all of this? I mean, do you feel -
13:10 - 13:15you're immune to conspiracy theories that
you can tell pretty much on contact -
13:15 - 13:19whether something's real or BS?
-
13:19 - 13:24It's really difficult to tell the
truth from the untruthful, from the fake -
13:24 - 13:29news, but the conspiracy's always based
around pointing the finger at those in -
13:29 - 13:35authority, and suggesting that they are
conspiring. I try and have trust in the -
13:35 - 13:41gatekeepers, where I also trust the
journalists, to ask the questions, and -
13:41 - 13:46the conspiracy theories that have been
proven to be true, have always been driven -
13:46 - 13:51by journalism. So, having the trust in our
society that if a conspiracy is occuring, -
13:51 - 13:54it will come out by these natural
processes. -
13:58 - 14:02Wonderful stuff. Dan, thank you so
much for joining us. -
14:02 - 14:03Pleasure, thank you so much.
-
14:06 - 14:10Thanks to Dan for joining me this
week. As we continue to follow the -
14:10 - 14:14COVID-19 outbreak, we'd love to keep
hearing your questions. You can send them -
14:14 - 14:21in via the form we've set up, just head
over to theguardian.com/covid19questions, -
14:21 - 14:25that's all one word.
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see you back here soon. -
14:58 - 15:02[Outro]
For more great podcasts from the Guardian, -
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- Title:
- Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories
- Description:
-
Guardian Podcast
Science Weekly -Psychology
Presented by Ian Sample and produced by David Waters and Madeleine Finlay
Tue 5 May 2020 05.00 BST
https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2020/may/05/covid-19-the-psychology-of-conspiracy-theories - Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- Captions Requested
- Duration:
- 15:09
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Niveditha Hari edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Niveditha Hari edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories |