WEBVTT 00:00:00.271 --> 00:00:03.186 [Music] Intro: The Guardian 00:00:09.241 --> 00:00:10.712 Welcome to Science Weekly. 00:00:11.753 --> 00:00:14.161 We're following the Covid-19 outbreak and 00:00:14.161 --> 00:00:17.638 exploring some of the scientific questions that have come out of it. 00:00:18.523 --> 00:00:21.722 In today's episode, we are looking at conspiracy theories: 00:00:22.500 --> 00:00:26.019 Now, many people are getting their information about coronavirus 00:00:26.019 --> 00:00:27.434 through social media. 00:00:27.434 --> 00:00:30.561 But not everything that's shared online can be trusted. 00:00:30.847 --> 00:00:34.510 5G mast on fire. **** the 5G! Yeah! 00:00:34.510 --> 00:00:37.258 It lowers your immunity and runs people down! 00:00:37.277 --> 00:00:40.972 The coronavirus pandemic is opening up weird new horizons 00:00:40.972 --> 00:00:43.213 for online conspiracy theorists. 00:00:43.213 --> 00:00:47.870 The virus was bio-engineered in a lab by scientists, to be used as a weapon 00:00:47.870 --> 00:00:50.139 or a form of population control. 00:00:50.139 --> 00:00:52.299 Hi guys, do you know what you're doing now? 00:00:52.299 --> 00:00:55.262 You're laying 5G. Yes. So, you know that kills people? 00:00:55.262 --> 00:00:58.069 It absorbs oxygen. That's just nonsense! 00:00:58.069 --> 00:00:59.986 Dangerous nonsense as well. 00:01:00.175 --> 00:01:02.773 5G was a favourite target of conspiracy theorists, 00:01:02.773 --> 00:01:05.306 long before the new coronavirus appeared. And now, 00:01:05.725 --> 00:01:07.923 the myths have just been tweaked a bit. 00:01:08.526 --> 00:01:11.411 It's not merely an opinion or an interesting conspiracy, 00:01:11.411 --> 00:01:13.245 it's just bollocks. 00:01:14.864 --> 00:01:18.753 So what is it about conspiracy theories that makes them so appealing 00:01:18.753 --> 00:01:20.130 in a time of crisis? 00:01:20.336 --> 00:01:22.247 And how can we best combat them? 00:01:22.936 --> 00:01:25.491 I'm Ian Sample, the science editor at The Guardian, 00:01:25.816 --> 00:01:27.414 and this is Science Weekly. 00:01:31.436 --> 00:01:33.136 I'm Dr Daniel Jolley. 00:01:33.342 --> 00:01:37.484 I'm a senior lecturer in psychology based at Northumbria University 00:01:37.484 --> 00:01:43.219 in Newcastle in the UK and my expertise is in the psychology of conspiracy theories. 00:01:43.219 --> 00:01:44.829 Hi Dan, how are you doing? 00:01:44.845 --> 00:01:47.159 I'm doing well thanks so much for having me here. 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.341 So Dan, let's start with the basics, 00:01:49.341 --> 00:01:53.786 what is a conspiracy theory, as opposed to misinformation, say? 00:01:54.234 --> 00:01:58.421 So the whole difference with a conspiracy theory is the idea 00:01:58.421 --> 00:02:03.739 that there is a powerful group plotting something secret for their own gain. 00:02:04.011 --> 00:02:10.113 So something can just be fake, that there is no hidden motive behind it. 00:02:10.330 --> 00:02:12.289 I mean there is a cardinal difference, 00:02:12.291 --> 00:02:14.569 it's pointing the finger at a group of people 00:02:14.569 --> 00:02:19.217 and blaming them for their wrongdoings, blaming them for the virus, for example. 00:02:19.587 --> 00:02:22.292 What is it about conspiracy theories, generally, 00:02:22.292 --> 00:02:24.508 that makes them so appealing to us? 00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:28.363 Well, conspiracy theories in general have been shown to arise 00:02:28.363 --> 00:02:33.715 in moments of crisis, when we have the need to feel in control, to feel certain. 00:02:34.166 --> 00:02:37.565 And in these kind of rapid crises we feel threatened, 00:02:37.567 --> 00:02:39.856 we feel unsure of what is happening, 00:02:39.958 --> 00:02:42.672 which is exactly what is happening with Covid-19 00:02:42.672 --> 00:02:45.499 I always thought that believing in conspiracy theories 00:02:45.499 --> 00:02:48.902 would make people feel more anxious, but it sounds like, actually, 00:02:48.902 --> 00:02:50.431 they have the opposite effect. 00:02:50.431 --> 00:02:53.216 Well, it's a really interesting point there. 00:02:53.964 --> 00:02:56.968 People who have this need to feel in control, 00:02:56.968 --> 00:02:59.787 the influence on them actually may just be quite temporal. 00:02:59.787 --> 00:03:02.972 They may seem appealing, but they're not satisfying. 00:03:03.167 --> 00:03:06.796 Could be shown that people who are exposed to conspiracy theories 00:03:06.796 --> 00:03:09.929 actually have further mistrust of those around them. 00:03:10.130 --> 00:03:12.539 It actually increases their feeling of anxiety. 00:03:12.830 --> 00:03:17.116 Often it is because if you don't subscribe to one conspiracy belief, 00:03:17.116 --> 00:03:19.353 you then start questioning other things, 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.230 which means its kind of ramping up your mistrust, 00:03:22.230 --> 00:03:27.644 and you kind of feel a feeling of uncertainty of you living in your society. 00:03:27.818 --> 00:03:32.173 So when they emerge in times of crisis, they may temporarily 00:03:32.279 --> 00:03:35.361 make us feel more secure but that will not be long-lasting. 00:03:35.903 --> 00:03:38.531 This must be a bit of a boom time for you, 00:03:38.699 --> 00:03:41.712 as someone who studies conspiracy theories I mean, we've seen, 00:03:41.869 --> 00:03:45.256 you know, a bunch of them around recently, from 5G masts, 00:03:45.256 --> 00:03:48.560 man-made viruses coming out of Chinese labs. I mean, 00:03:48.795 --> 00:03:53.131 what is it about a pandemic that seems to drive so many? 00:03:53.563 --> 00:03:58.273 Covid-19 is not unique in regards to having conspiracy theories bloom about it. 00:04:00.892 --> 00:04:03.444 Thinking back to Zika, 2015, 00:04:03.444 --> 00:04:07.400 there were conspiracy theories suggesting Zika was a man-made weapon. 00:04:07.653 --> 00:04:12.055 Zika is a mosquito-transmitted virus that has led to travel warnings 00:04:12.055 --> 00:04:14.290 in South America and Caribbean countries. 00:04:14.354 --> 00:04:17.911 Is Zika caused by genetically modified mosquitoes? 00:04:18.081 --> 00:04:22.406 We're fact-checking this conspiracy theory making the rounds on Facebook. 00:04:22.666 --> 00:04:24.833 It's fair that the conspiracy now to emerge, 00:04:25.041 --> 00:04:28.169 when people are talking about extreme uncertainty. 00:04:28.448 --> 00:04:33.650 So when they felt uncertain, they now (??) conspiracy theories was more blooming. 00:04:33.931 --> 00:04:36.254 And the same thing is happening with COVID-19. 00:04:36.438 --> 00:04:40.473 The Trump administration has repeatedly pushed the narrative that the Coronavirus 00:04:40.506 --> 00:04:46.017 may have escaped from a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, rather than originating with an 00:04:46.036 --> 00:04:50.284 animal in a seafood market in Wuhan, which is the leading medical theory. 00:04:51.074 --> 00:04:54.644 Because the world is definitely chaotic, and it offers some kind of tangible 00:04:55.546 --> 00:04:57.908 personal group to blame for what is happening. 00:05:00.789 --> 00:05:05.752 It sounds like, then, that it's pretty typical to see conspiracy theories 00:05:05.752 --> 00:05:08.734 spring up around any big event. 00:05:08.734 --> 00:05:12.747 Do you think we're just seeing more now or we're aware of more now, because they're 00:05:12.747 --> 00:05:14.541 spreading through social media? 00:05:14.684 --> 00:05:18.590 There's no hard data that demonstrates that today with the 00:05:18.590 --> 00:05:23.004 internet, conspiracy theories are more popular. So it may just be us assuming 00:05:23.004 --> 00:05:27.408 they are. I think it's important, though, to really look into this, and to see the 00:05:27.408 --> 00:05:32.417 peril that social media can have. Thinking about the 5G conspiracy, it seemed to 00:05:32.417 --> 00:05:37.834 emerge from social media, where the algorithms and Facebook picked up chatter 00:05:37.834 --> 00:05:43.207 with regards to 5G, and brought it into the trending. And then, during videos 00:05:43.207 --> 00:05:49.179 people in the comments were talking about the masts and how one way to stop COVID is 00:05:49.179 --> 00:05:53.220 by the masts and pulling them down, etc. So that's something that's potentially 00:05:53.220 --> 00:05:58.786 quite novel in that that fast interaction may have actually sped up the kind of 00:05:58.786 --> 00:06:00.775 insurgence of the conspiracy. It's a real 00:06:03.298 --> 00:06:04.298 interesting problem 00:06:05.060 --> 00:06:05.941 with regards to 00:06:05.941 --> 00:06:06.542 Facebook and 00:06:06.542 --> 00:06:07.144 social media 00:06:07.144 --> 00:06:12.214 in general, and how they deal with conspiracy theories, because someone's conspiracy 00:06:12.214 --> 00:06:17.748 theory is someone's truth, in essence. So it's how do we define what a conspiracy 00:06:17.748 --> 00:06:22.436 theory is. And indeed, by banning, for example, conspiracy theories on platforms 00:06:22.993 --> 00:06:27.317 will just reaffirm the suspicions that people have, that they're trying to hide 00:06:27.317 --> 00:06:31.604 something. So you may actually increase people's conspiracy theorizing, because 00:06:31.604 --> 00:06:37.826 they are being silenced. So it's that balance of insuring there's a space and a 00:06:37.826 --> 00:06:42.199 platform for people to have free speech, to be able to discuss issues, and to, you 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:46.607 know, question things, which I think is important that we question, but then the 00:06:46.607 --> 00:06:51.455 balance comes by that things aren't made into the trending pages that are not based 00:06:51.455 --> 00:06:58.329 on truth. So right now, Facebook and etc., are taking down content that they see to 00:06:58.329 --> 00:07:03.826 be inciting violence, and that can actually be a hinder to curbing COVID-19, 00:07:03.826 --> 00:07:08.404 which is think is a positive first step, but it's not going to fix the issue as a NOTE Paragraph 00:07:08.404 --> 00:07:09.928 broad issue in the future. 00:07:11.456 --> 00:07:14.326 So maybe, thinking about the individual as well, 00:07:14.486 --> 00:07:19.666 and insuring the individual has the skill sets to really ask the questions, but also 00:07:19.666 --> 00:07:24.669 evaluate the evidence. So we know those people who lack critical thinking 00:07:24.669 --> 00:07:29.191 abilities are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories, and we also know that NOTE Paragraph 00:07:29.191 --> 00:07:32.707 people who in believe in conspiracies is because they want to understand 00:07:32.707 --> 00:07:37.136 the world, but they're struggling to evaluate the evidence. So potentially us NOTE Paragraph 00:07:37.136 --> 00:07:42.890 trying to instil those skill sets, may mean that they're able to resist the NOTE Paragraph 00:07:43.188 --> 00:07:47.356 conspiracy narrative. Let's talk a bit more about the psychology of people who 00:07:47.602 --> 00:07:52.494 believe in conspiracy theories or tend to believe in them. Are there characteristics 00:07:52.911 --> 00:07:59.134 or personality traits that make people maybe more susceptible to these kinds of 00:07:59.134 --> 00:08:00.676 theories than others? 00:08:01.193 --> 00:08:05.401 There are a range of different needs that are met by conspiracy theories, 00:08:05.401 --> 00:08:10.118 while there's also kind of a social element whereby we want to affirm 00:08:10.118 --> 00:08:15.146 ourselves and also the groups that we belong in. And interestingly, research in 00:08:15.146 --> 00:08:20.195 America has found that in regards to politics, the conspiracy theories switch 00:08:21.048 --> 00:08:26.261 depending on who is in power. So it's very much a prophecies in play here, where 00:08:26.261 --> 00:08:30.630 you're just affirming your identity, the others, those are the ones who are 00:08:30.630 --> 00:08:33.831 conspiring, and that can change depending on the context. 00:08:34.075 --> 00:08:37.502 It sounds like some other sort of traits might come into play as well, 00:08:37.418 --> 00:08:43.653 around how people see themselves, their social self-image, but also whether 00:08:43.653 --> 00:08:46.315 people have been sort of marginalized in the past? 00:08:46.315 --> 00:08:51.511 Absolutely. So, research has found that being a narcissist is more predictively 00:08:51.511 --> 00:08:55.656 believing in conspiracy theories, and also, it has been shown that people 00:08:55.656 --> 00:08:57.344 who are from disadvantaged groups, 00:08:57.574 --> 00:09:00.618 because if you have received discrimination in the past, 00:09:00.618 --> 00:09:04.374 you may be more likely to perceive that people are out to get you. 00:09:04.374 --> 00:09:07.224 Because once upon a time, maybe they were. 00:09:07.771 --> 00:09:11.942 So prior experiences may also play a role in making you more susceptible. 00:09:12.358 --> 00:09:16.087 And then, when you're in an environment that increases your uncertainty, 00:09:16.087 --> 00:09:18.933 increases your threat, like COVID-19, 00:09:18.933 --> 00:09:23.357 you may be more susceptible to subscribe to these conspiracy theories. 00:09:23.693 --> 00:09:27.033 And indeed, a consistent finding in the literature is 00:09:27.033 --> 00:09:30.647 that if you believe in one conspiracy, you believe in many others. 00:09:30.822 --> 00:09:32.829 Also, interestingly, researchers find that 00:09:32.829 --> 00:09:37.502 you can believe in mutually exclusive conspiracy theories. Because, it's all 00:09:37.512 --> 00:09:41.812 based around this world view that conspiracy theories in the world. So that 00:09:41.830 --> 00:09:47.760 means that someone may believe that the virus was human-made, but also believing 00:09:47.760 --> 00:09:52.212 it is caused by 5G. Whilst these two things can't necessarily happen at the 00:09:52.212 --> 00:09:57.619 same time, it's in this process if you feel distrust, of society, of people who 00:09:57.619 --> 00:10:01.006 we see to be in power, you can subscribe to these ideas. [Music] 00:10:05.558 --> 00:10:10.279 When I've seen conspiracy theorists talking about their beliefs, it's clear 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:15.766 that there's a real urge to pull together strands of evidence, and to collect 00:10:15.766 --> 00:10:21.495 evidence, and say, pull together these sort of desperate things, and many of them 00:10:21.495 --> 00:10:26.882 seem to see themselves as like, the real critical thinkers, but I'm wondering what 00:10:26.896 --> 00:10:30.666 kind of biases are coming into play there, that are actually within those people, to 00:10:30.666 --> 00:10:32.439 make them believe these kinds of theories. 00:10:33.369 --> 00:10:37.046 (DJ) One of the biases is confirmation bias, that we're all susceptible to. 00:10:37.581 --> 00:10:42.613 This is the idea that we only really listen to evidence that supports our prior 00:10:42.613 --> 00:10:48.217 beliefs. Things that go against it, that discredit our beliefs, we ignore. 00:10:50.645 --> 00:10:55.923 There's also biases based around personality bias, with COVID-19, it's such 00:10:55.923 --> 00:11:02.235 a large event, worldwide, to explain this as something from animals doesn't really 00:11:02.235 --> 00:11:07.026 make sense. But to explain this as a conspiracy where it was human-made, 00:11:07.761 --> 00:11:11.489 the proportionality matches the cause, it all kind of fits together. 00:11:14.545 --> 00:11:20.660 So, we can, in situations where these events arise, be more drawn to conspiracy 00:11:20.660 --> 00:11:24.811 narratives. We then stay in our echo chambers in our online world. 00:11:25.511 --> 00:11:30.813 It can be tough debating and arguing with people who believe in conspiracy 00:11:30.813 --> 00:11:36.479 theories, and okay, some of them are harmless, but some of them really aren't. 00:11:36.658 --> 00:11:41.629 I mean, as someone who really studies them, do you have a sense of how best 00:11:41.629 --> 00:11:44.688 we can combat them, the ones that are dangerous? 00:11:44.696 --> 00:11:48.664 Interventions are really challenging, but of course, as you say, they're really 00:11:48.664 --> 00:11:55.019 important, so potentially targeting the general population, and targeting those 00:11:55.019 --> 00:11:59.135 who are hardened conspiracy theorists, may be slightly different. 00:11:59.135 --> 00:12:05.567 So for example, we know that using counter arguments, giving people facts, can reduce 00:12:05.567 --> 00:12:11.952 belief in conspiracy theories. But, if you harbor a conspiracy belief, and you see 00:12:11.952 --> 00:12:17.034 some counter material from the government, you are going to discredit that, because 00:12:17.034 --> 00:12:22.316 of your confirmation bias. So indeed, for others, it may be having people become 00:12:22.316 --> 00:12:26.947 trusted messengers, where you're not aggressive, but instead, talk to them 00:12:26.947 --> 00:12:30.825 about their beliefs, get them to really kind of think hard about the evidence 00:12:30.825 --> 00:12:35.004 that they are, you know, really kind of suggesting is the be and end all, and 00:12:35.004 --> 00:12:39.534 that maybe that kind of thinking process and get them to re-evaluate may start 00:12:39.534 --> 00:12:43.557 changing their beliefs. Of course, this I'm sure would work for the general 00:12:43.557 --> 00:12:49.631 population as well, so I think with ensuring that the landscape on Twitter, on 00:12:49.631 --> 00:12:54.847 Facebook is full of facts is really important, but then still acknowledging 00:12:54.847 --> 00:12:59.193 that those who are on the hardened end of the conspiracy theorizing may distrust 00:12:59.193 --> 00:13:03.790 that straight away. So it's definitely a challenge, but I think it's important to 00:13:03.790 --> 00:13:04.625 really evaluate. 00:13:05.028 --> 00:13:09.690 Dan, finally, how do you think you fair in all of this? I mean, do you feel 00:13:09.690 --> 00:13:15.441 you're immune to conspiracy theories that you can tell pretty much on contact 00:13:15.441 --> 00:13:18.684 whether something's real or BS? 00:13:18.684 --> 00:13:24.117 It's really difficult to tell the truth from the untruthful, from the fake 00:13:24.117 --> 00:13:28.933 news, but the conspiracy's always based around pointing the finger at those in 00:13:28.933 --> 00:13:35.362 authority, and suggesting that they are conspiring. I try and have trust in the 00:13:35.362 --> 00:13:41.271 gatekeepers, where I also trust the journalists, to ask the questions, and 00:13:41.271 --> 00:13:45.608 the conspiracy theories that have been proven to be true, have always been driven 00:13:45.608 --> 00:13:51.476 by journalism. So, having the trust in our society that if a conspiracy is occuring, 00:13:51.476 --> 00:13:54.335 it will come out by these natural processes. 00:13:58.445 --> 00:14:01.788 Wonderful stuff. Dan, thank you so much for joining us. 00:14:01.891 --> 00:14:03.253 Pleasure, thank you so much. 00:14:05.843 --> 00:14:10.275 Thanks to Dan for joining me this week. As we continue to follow the 00:14:10.275 --> 00:14:14.376 COVID-19 outbreak, we'd love to keep hearing your questions. You can send them 00:14:14.376 --> 00:14:20.527 in via the form we've set up, just head over to theguardian.com/covid19questions, 00:14:20.527 --> 00:14:24.523 that's all one word. And also thank those who support 00:14:24.523 --> 00:14:25.425 as listeners. 00:14:25.425 --> 00:14:29.788 In times like this, trusted news is more important than ever, and here at the 00:14:29.788 --> 00:14:34.954 Guardian we are 100% committed to accurate and reliable news, but in order 00:14:34.954 --> 00:14:40.086 to help us do that, we need your support. To find out more, please go to 00:14:40.086 --> 00:14:45.201 theguardian.com/supportpodcast, again all one word. 00:14:45.201 --> 00:14:48.711 Look after yourselves and stay well, see you back here soon. 00:14:58.217 --> 00:15:01.542 [Outro] For more great podcasts from the Guardian, 00:15:01.567 --> 00:15:04.960 just go to theguardian.com/podcasts.