1
00:00:00,271 --> 00:00:03,186
[Music]
Intro: The Guardian

2
00:00:09,241 --> 00:00:10,712
Welcome to Science Weekly.

3
00:00:11,753 --> 00:00:14,161
We're following the Covid-19 outbreak and

4
00:00:14,161 --> 00:00:17,638
exploring some of the scientific questions
that have come out of it.

5
00:00:18,523 --> 00:00:21,722
In today's episode, we are looking
at conspiracy theories:

6
00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:26,019
Now, many people are getting
their information about coronavirus

7
00:00:26,019 --> 00:00:27,434
through social media.

8
00:00:27,434 --> 00:00:30,561
But not everything that's shared online
can be trusted.

9
00:00:30,847 --> 00:00:34,510
5G mast on fire. **** the 5G!
Yeah!

10
00:00:34,510 --> 00:00:37,258
It lowers your immunity
and runs people down!

11
00:00:37,277 --> 00:00:40,972
The coronavirus pandemic is opening up
weird new horizons

12
00:00:40,972 --> 00:00:43,213
for online conspiracy theorists.

13
00:00:43,213 --> 00:00:47,870
The virus was bio-engineered in a lab
by scientists, to be used as a weapon

14
00:00:47,870 --> 00:00:50,139
or a form of population control.

15
00:00:50,139 --> 00:00:52,299
Hi guys, do you know
what you're doing now?

16
00:00:52,299 --> 00:00:55,262
You're laying 5G. Yes.
So, you know that kills people?

17
00:00:55,262 --> 00:00:58,069
It absorbs oxygen.
That's just nonsense!

18
00:00:58,069 --> 00:00:59,986
Dangerous nonsense as well.

19
00:01:00,175 --> 00:01:02,773
5G was a favourite target
of conspiracy theorists,

20
00:01:02,773 --> 00:01:05,306
long before the new coronavirus appeared.
And now,

21
00:01:05,725 --> 00:01:07,923
the myths have just been 
tweaked a bit.

22
00:01:08,526 --> 00:01:11,411
It's not merely an opinion
or an interesting conspiracy,

23
00:01:11,411 --> 00:01:13,245
it's just bollocks.

24
00:01:14,864 --> 00:01:18,753
So what is it about conspiracy theories
that makes them so appealing

25
00:01:18,753 --> 00:01:20,130
in a time of crisis?

26
00:01:20,336 --> 00:01:22,247
And how can we best combat them?

27
00:01:22,936 --> 00:01:25,491
I'm Ian Sample, the science editor
at The Guardian,

28
00:01:25,816 --> 00:01:27,414
and this is Science Weekly.

29
00:01:31,436 --> 00:01:33,136
I'm Dr Daniel Jolley.

30
00:01:33,342 --> 00:01:37,484
I'm a senior lecturer in psychology
based at Northumbria University

31
00:01:37,484 --> 00:01:43,219
in Newcastle in the UK and my expertise is
in the psychology of conspiracy theories.

32
00:01:43,219 --> 00:01:44,829
Hi Dan, how are you doing?

33
00:01:44,845 --> 00:01:47,159
I'm doing well
thanks so much for having me here.

34
00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:49,341
So Dan, let's start with the basics,

35
00:01:49,341 --> 00:01:53,786
what is a conspiracy theory,
as opposed to misinformation, say?

36
00:01:54,234 --> 00:01:58,421
So the whole difference
with a conspiracy theory is the idea

37
00:01:58,421 --> 00:02:03,739
that there is a powerful group plotting
something secret for their own gain.

38
00:02:04,011 --> 00:02:10,113
So something can just be fake, that
there is no hidden motive behind it.

39
00:02:10,330 --> 00:02:12,289
I mean there is a cardinal difference,

40
00:02:12,291 --> 00:02:14,569
it's pointing the finger
at a group of people

41
00:02:14,569 --> 00:02:19,217
and blaming them for their wrongdoings,
blaming them for the virus, for example.

42
00:02:19,587 --> 00:02:22,292
What is it about conspiracy theories,
generally,

43
00:02:22,292 --> 00:02:24,508
that makes them so appealing to us?

44
00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:28,363
Well, conspiracy theories in general
have been shown to arise

45
00:02:28,363 --> 00:02:33,715
in moments of crisis, when we have the
need to feel in control, to feel certain.

46
00:02:34,166 --> 00:02:37,565
And in these kind of rapid crises
we feel threatened,

47
00:02:37,567 --> 00:02:39,856
we feel unsure of what is happening,

48
00:02:39,958 --> 00:02:42,672
which is exactly what is happening
with Covid-19

49
00:02:42,672 --> 00:02:45,499
I always thought that believing 
in conspiracy theories

50
00:02:45,499 --> 00:02:48,902
would make people feel more anxious,
but it sounds like, actually,

51
00:02:48,902 --> 00:02:50,431
they have the opposite effect.

52
00:02:50,431 --> 00:02:53,216
Well, it's a really interesting
point there.

53
00:02:53,964 --> 00:02:56,968
People who have this need to feel
in control,

54
00:02:56,968 --> 00:02:59,787
the influence on them actually may
just be quite temporal.

55
00:02:59,787 --> 00:03:02,972
They may seem appealing,
but they're not satisfying.

56
00:03:03,167 --> 00:03:06,796
Could be shown that people who are
exposed to conspiracy theories

57
00:03:06,796 --> 00:03:09,929
actually have further mistrust
of those around them.

58
00:03:10,130 --> 00:03:12,539
It actually increases their feeling
of anxiety.

59
00:03:12,830 --> 00:03:17,116
Often it is because if you don't subscribe
to one conspiracy belief,

60
00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:19,353
you then start questioning other things,

61
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,230
which means its kind of ramping up
your mistrust,

62
00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:27,644
and you kind of feel a feeling of 
uncertainty of you living in your society.

63
00:03:27,818 --> 00:03:32,173
So when they emerge in times of crisis,
they may temporarily

64
00:03:32,279 --> 00:03:35,361
make us feel more secure
but that will not be long-lasting.

65
00:03:35,903 --> 00:03:38,531
This must be
a bit of a boom time for you,

66
00:03:38,699 --> 00:03:41,712
as someone who studies conspiracy theories
I mean, we've seen,

67
00:03:41,869 --> 00:03:45,256
you know, a bunch of them around recently,
from 5G masts,

68
00:03:45,256 --> 00:03:48,560
man-made viruses coming out of
Chinese labs. I mean,

69
00:03:48,795 --> 00:03:53,131
what is it about a pandemic
that seems to drive so many?

70
00:03:53,563 --> 00:03:58,273
Covid-19 is not unique in regards to
having conspiracy theories bloom about it.

71
00:04:00,892 --> 00:04:03,444
Thinking back to Zika, 2015,

72
00:04:03,444 --> 00:04:07,400
there were conspiracy theories suggesting
Zika was a man-made weapon.

73
00:04:07,653 --> 00:04:12,055
Zika is a mosquito-transmitted virus
that has led to travel warnings

74
00:04:12,055 --> 00:04:14,290
in South America and Caribbean countries.

75
00:04:14,354 --> 00:04:17,911
Is Zika caused by 
genetically modified mosquitoes?

76
00:04:18,081 --> 00:04:22,406
We're fact-checking this conspiracy theory
making the rounds on Facebook.

77
00:04:22,666 --> 00:04:24,833
It's fair that the conspiracy now to 
emerge,

78
00:04:25,041 --> 00:04:28,169
when people are talking about extreme
uncertainty.

79
00:04:28,448 --> 00:04:33,650
So when they felt uncertain, they now (??)
conspiracy theories was more blooming.

80
00:04:33,931 --> 00:04:36,254
And the same thing is happening with 
COVID-19.

81
00:04:36,438 --> 00:04:40,473
The Trump administration has repeatedly
pushed the narrative that the Coronavirus

82
00:04:40,506 --> 00:04:46,017
may have escaped from a Chinese laboratory
in Wuhan, rather than originating with an

83
00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:50,284
animal in a seafood market in Wuhan, which
is the leading medical theory.

84
00:04:51,074 --> 00:04:54,644
Because the world is definitely chaotic,
and it offers some kind of tangible

85
00:04:55,546 --> 00:04:57,908
personal group to blame for 
what is happening.

86
00:05:00,789 --> 00:05:05,752
It sounds like, then, that it's 
pretty typical to see conspiracy theories

87
00:05:05,752 --> 00:05:08,734
spring up around any big event.

88
00:05:08,734 --> 00:05:12,747
Do you think we're just seeing more now or
we're aware of more now, because they're

89
00:05:12,747 --> 00:05:14,541
spreading through social media?

90
00:05:14,684 --> 00:05:18,590
There's no hard data that 
demonstrates that today with the

91
00:05:18,590 --> 00:05:23,004
internet, conspiracy theories are more 
popular. So it may just be us assuming

92
00:05:23,004 --> 00:05:27,408
they are. I think it's important, though, 
to really look into this, and to see the

93
00:05:27,408 --> 00:05:32,417
peril that social media can have. Thinking
about the 5G conspiracy, it seemed to

94
00:05:32,417 --> 00:05:37,834
emerge from social media, where the 
algorithms and Facebook picked up chatter

95
00:05:37,834 --> 00:05:43,207
with regards to 5G, and brought it into
the trending. And then, during videos

96
00:05:43,207 --> 00:05:49,179
people in the comments were talking about
the masts and how one way to stop COVID is

97
00:05:49,179 --> 00:05:53,220
by the masts and pulling them down, etc. 
So that's something that's potentially

98
00:05:53,220 --> 00:05:58,786
quite novel in that that fast interaction
may have actually sped up the kind of

99
00:05:58,786 --> 00:06:00,775
insurgence of the conspiracy.
It's a real

100
00:06:03,298 --> 00:06:04,298
interesting problem

101
00:06:05,060 --> 00:06:05,941
with regards to

102
00:06:05,941 --> 00:06:06,542
Facebook and

103
00:06:06,542 --> 00:06:07,144
social media

104
00:06:07,144 --> 00:06:12,214
in general, and how they deal with 
conspiracy theories, because someone's conspiracy

105
00:06:12,214 --> 00:06:17,748
theory is someone's truth, in essence. So 
it's how do we define what a conspiracy

106
00:06:17,748 --> 00:06:22,436
theory is. And indeed, by banning, for 
example, conspiracy theories on platforms

107
00:06:22,993 --> 00:06:27,317
will just reaffirm the suspicions that 
people have, that they're trying to hide

108
00:06:27,317 --> 00:06:31,604
something. So you may actually increase 
people's conspiracy theorizing, because

109
00:06:31,604 --> 00:06:37,826
they are being silenced. So it's that
balance of insuring there's a space and a

110
00:06:37,826 --> 00:06:42,199
platform for people to have free speech,
to be able to discuss issues, and to, you

111
00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:46,607
know, question things, which I think is
important that we question, but then the

112
00:06:46,607 --> 00:06:51,455
balance comes by that things aren't made
into the trending pages that are not based

113
00:06:51,455 --> 00:06:58,329
on truth. So right now, Facebook and etc.,
are taking down content that they see to

114
00:06:58,329 --> 00:07:03,826
be inciting violence, and that can 
actually be a hinder to curbing COVID-19,

115
00:07:03,826 --> 00:07:08,404
which is think is a positive first step, 
but it's not going to fix the issue as a

116
00:07:08,404 --> 00:07:09,928
broad issue in the future.

117
00:07:11,456 --> 00:07:14,326
So maybe, 
thinking about the individual as well,

118
00:07:14,486 --> 00:07:19,666
and insuring the individual has the skill 
sets to really ask the questions, but also

119
00:07:19,666 --> 00:07:24,669
evaluate the evidence. So we know those
people who lack critical thinking

120
00:07:24,669 --> 00:07:29,191
abilities are more likely to believe in
conspiracy theories, and we also know that

121
00:07:29,191 --> 00:07:32,707
people who in believe in conspiracies is
because they want to understand

122
00:07:32,707 --> 00:07:37,136
the world, but they're struggling to 
evaluate the evidence. So potentially us

123
00:07:37,136 --> 00:07:42,890
trying to instil those skill sets, may
mean that they're able to resist the

124
00:07:43,188 --> 00:07:47,356
conspiracy narrative. Let's talk a bit
more about the psychology of people who

125
00:07:47,602 --> 00:07:52,494
believe in conspiracy theories or tend to
believe in them. Are there characteristics

126
00:07:52,911 --> 00:07:59,134
or personality traits that make people
maybe more susceptible to these kinds of

127
00:07:59,134 --> 00:08:00,676
theories than others?

128
00:08:01,193 --> 00:08:05,401
There are a range of different needs
that are met by conspiracy theories,

129
00:08:05,401 --> 00:08:10,118
while there's also kind of a social 
element whereby we want to affirm

130
00:08:10,118 --> 00:08:15,146
ourselves and also the groups that we 
belong in. And interestingly, research in

131
00:08:15,146 --> 00:08:20,195
America has found that in regards to 
politics, the conspiracy theories switch

132
00:08:21,048 --> 00:08:26,261
depending on who is in power. So it's very
much a prophecies in play here, where

133
00:08:26,261 --> 00:08:30,630
you're just affirming your identity, the
others, those are the ones who are

134
00:08:30,630 --> 00:08:33,831
conspiring, and that can change depending
on the context.

135
00:08:34,075 --> 00:08:37,502
It sounds like some other sort of
traits might come into play as well,

136
00:08:37,418 --> 00:08:43,653
around how people see themselves, their
social self-image, but also whether

137
00:08:43,653 --> 00:08:46,315
people have been sort of marginalized in
the past?

138
00:08:46,315 --> 00:08:51,511
Absolutely. So, research has found that 
being a narcissist is more predictively

139
00:08:51,511 --> 00:08:55,656
believing in conspiracy theories,
and also, it has been shown that people

140
00:08:55,656 --> 00:08:57,344
who are from disadvantaged groups,

141
00:08:57,574 --> 00:09:00,618
because if you have received
discrimination in the past,

142
00:09:00,618 --> 00:09:04,374
you may be more likely to perceive
that people are out to get you.

143
00:09:04,374 --> 00:09:07,224
Because once upon a time, maybe they were.

144
00:09:07,771 --> 00:09:11,942
So prior experiences may also play a role
in making you more susceptible.

145
00:09:12,358 --> 00:09:16,087
And then, when you're in an environment
that increases your uncertainty,

146
00:09:16,087 --> 00:09:18,933
increases your threat, like COVID-19,

147
00:09:18,933 --> 00:09:23,357
you may be more susceptible
to subscribe to these conspiracy theories.

148
00:09:23,693 --> 00:09:27,033
And indeed, a consistent finding
in the literature is

149
00:09:27,033 --> 00:09:30,647
that if you believe in one conspiracy,
you believe in many others.

150
00:09:30,822 --> 00:09:32,829
Also, interestingly,
researchers find that

151
00:09:32,829 --> 00:09:37,502
you can believe in mutually exclusive 
conspiracy theories. Because, it's all

152
00:09:37,512 --> 00:09:41,812
based around this world view that
conspiracy theories in the world. So that

153
00:09:41,830 --> 00:09:47,760
means that someone may believe that the 
virus was human-made, but also believing

154
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,212
it is caused by 5G. Whilst these two 
things can't necessarily happen at the

155
00:09:52,212 --> 00:09:57,619
same time, it's in this process if you 
feel distrust, of society, of people who

156
00:09:57,619 --> 00:10:01,006
we see to be in power, you can subscribe 
to these ideas. [Music]

157
00:10:05,558 --> 00:10:10,279
When I've seen conspiracy theorists
talking about their beliefs, it's clear

158
00:10:10,279 --> 00:10:15,766
that there's a real urge to pull together
strands of evidence, and to collect

159
00:10:15,766 --> 00:10:21,495
evidence, and say, pull together these 
sort of desperate things, and many of them

160
00:10:21,495 --> 00:10:26,882
seem to see themselves as like, the real
critical thinkers, but I'm wondering what

161
00:10:26,896 --> 00:10:30,666
kind of biases are coming into play there,
that are actually within those people, to

162
00:10:30,666 --> 00:10:32,439
make them believe these kinds of theories.

163
00:10:33,369 --> 00:10:37,046
(DJ) One of the biases is confirmation 
bias, that we're all susceptible to.

164
00:10:37,581 --> 00:10:42,613
This is the idea that we only really 
listen to evidence that supports our prior

165
00:10:42,613 --> 00:10:48,217
beliefs. Things that go against it, that 
discredit our beliefs, we ignore.

166
00:10:50,645 --> 00:10:55,923
There's also biases based around 
personality bias, with COVID-19, it's such

167
00:10:55,923 --> 00:11:02,235
a large event, worldwide, to explain this
as something from animals doesn't really

168
00:11:02,235 --> 00:11:07,026
make sense. But to explain this as a 
conspiracy where it was human-made,

169
00:11:07,761 --> 00:11:11,489
the proportionality matches the cause,
it all kind of fits together.

170
00:11:14,545 --> 00:11:20,660
So, we can, in situations where these 
events arise, be more drawn to conspiracy

171
00:11:20,660 --> 00:11:24,811
narratives. We then stay in our echo 
chambers in our online world.

172
00:11:25,511 --> 00:11:30,813
It can be tough debating and arguing
with people who believe in conspiracy

173
00:11:30,813 --> 00:11:36,479
theories, and okay, some of them are 
harmless, but some of them really aren't.

174
00:11:36,658 --> 00:11:41,629
I mean, as someone who really studies
them, do you have a sense of how best

175
00:11:41,629 --> 00:11:44,688
we can combat them, the ones that are
dangerous?

176
00:11:44,696 --> 00:11:48,664
Interventions are really challenging,
but of course, as you say, they're really

177
00:11:48,664 --> 00:11:55,019
important, so potentially targeting the
general population, and targeting those

178
00:11:55,019 --> 00:11:59,135
who are hardened conspiracy theorists, 
may be slightly different.

179
00:11:59,135 --> 00:12:05,567
So for example, we know that using counter
arguments, giving people facts, can reduce

180
00:12:05,567 --> 00:12:11,952
belief in conspiracy theories. But, if you
harbor a conspiracy belief, and you see

181
00:12:11,952 --> 00:12:17,034
some counter material from the government,
you are going to discredit that, because

182
00:12:17,034 --> 00:12:22,316
of your confirmation bias. So indeed, for 
others, it may be having people become

183
00:12:22,316 --> 00:12:26,947
trusted messengers, where you're not
aggressive, but instead, talk to them

184
00:12:26,947 --> 00:12:30,825
about their beliefs, get them to really
kind of think hard about the evidence

185
00:12:30,825 --> 00:12:35,004
that they are, you know, really kind of
suggesting is the be and end all, and

186
00:12:35,004 --> 00:12:39,534
that maybe that kind of thinking process
and get them to re-evaluate may start

187
00:12:39,534 --> 00:12:43,557
changing their beliefs. Of course, this 
I'm sure would work for the general

188
00:12:43,557 --> 00:12:49,631
population as well, so I think with 
ensuring that the landscape on Twitter, on

189
00:12:49,631 --> 00:12:54,847
Facebook is full of facts is really 
important, but then still acknowledging

190
00:12:54,847 --> 00:12:59,193
that those who are on the hardened end
of the conspiracy theorizing may distrust

191
00:12:59,193 --> 00:13:03,790
that straight away. So it's definitely a 
challenge, but I think it's important to

192
00:13:03,790 --> 00:13:04,625
really evaluate.

193
00:13:05,028 --> 00:13:09,690
Dan, finally, how do you think you 
fair in all of this? I mean, do you feel

194
00:13:09,690 --> 00:13:15,441
you're immune to conspiracy theories that
you can tell pretty much on contact

195
00:13:15,441 --> 00:13:18,684
whether something's real or BS?

196
00:13:18,684 --> 00:13:24,117
It's really difficult to tell the 
truth from the untruthful, from the fake

197
00:13:24,117 --> 00:13:28,933
news, but the conspiracy's always based
around pointing the finger at those in

198
00:13:28,933 --> 00:13:35,362
authority, and suggesting that they are 
conspiring. I try and have trust in the

199
00:13:35,362 --> 00:13:41,271
gatekeepers, where I also trust the 
journalists, to ask the questions, and

200
00:13:41,271 --> 00:13:45,608
the conspiracy theories that have been 
proven to be true, have always been driven

201
00:13:45,608 --> 00:13:51,476
by journalism. So, having the trust in our
society that if a conspiracy is occuring,

202
00:13:51,476 --> 00:13:54,335
it will come out by these natural 
processes.

203
00:13:58,445 --> 00:14:01,788
Wonderful stuff. Dan, thank you so
much for joining us.

204
00:14:01,891 --> 00:14:03,253
Pleasure, thank you so much.

205
00:14:05,843 --> 00:14:10,275
Thanks to Dan for joining me this
week. As we continue to follow the

206
00:14:10,275 --> 00:14:14,376
COVID-19 outbreak, we'd love to keep
hearing your questions. You can send them

207
00:14:14,376 --> 00:14:20,527
in via the form we've set up, just head
over to theguardian.com/covid19questions,

208
00:14:20,527 --> 00:14:24,523
that's all one word.
And also thank those who support

209
00:14:24,523 --> 00:14:25,425
as listeners.

210
00:14:25,425 --> 00:14:29,788
In times like this, trusted news is more
important than ever, and here at the

211
00:14:29,788 --> 00:14:34,954
Guardian we are 100% committed to 
accurate and reliable news, but in order

212
00:14:34,954 --> 00:14:40,086
to help us do that, we need your support.
To find out more, please go to

213
00:14:40,086 --> 00:14:45,201
theguardian.com/supportpodcast, again
all one word.

214
00:14:45,201 --> 00:14:48,711
Look after yourselves and stay well, 
see you back here soon.

215
00:14:58,217 --> 00:15:01,542
[Outro]
For more great podcasts from the Guardian,

216
00:15:01,567 --> 00:15:04,960
just go to theguardian.com/podcasts.