0:00:00.271,0:00:03.186 [Music][br]Intro: The Guardian 0:00:09.241,0:00:10.712 Welcome to Science Weekly. 0:00:11.753,0:00:14.161 We're following the Covid-19 outbreak and 0:00:14.161,0:00:17.638 exploring some of the scientific questions[br]that have come out of it. 0:00:18.523,0:00:21.722 In today's episode, we are looking[br]at conspiracy theories: 0:00:22.500,0:00:26.019 Now, many people are getting[br]their information about coronavirus 0:00:26.019,0:00:27.434 through social media. 0:00:27.434,0:00:30.561 But not everything that's shared online[br]can be trusted. 0:00:30.847,0:00:34.510 5G mast on fire. **** the 5G![br]Yeah! 0:00:34.510,0:00:37.258 It lowers your immunity[br]and runs people down! 0:00:37.277,0:00:40.972 The coronavirus pandemic is opening up[br]weird new horizons 0:00:40.972,0:00:43.213 for online conspiracy theorists. 0:00:43.213,0:00:47.870 The virus was bio-engineered in a lab[br]by scientists, to be used as a weapon 0:00:47.870,0:00:50.139 or a form of population control. 0:00:50.139,0:00:52.299 Hi guys, do you know[br]what you're doing now? 0:00:52.299,0:00:55.262 You're laying 5G. Yes.[br]So, you know that kills people? 0:00:55.262,0:00:58.069 It absorbs oxygen.[br]That's just nonsense! 0:00:58.069,0:00:59.986 Dangerous nonsense as well. 0:01:00.175,0:01:02.773 5G was a favourite target[br]of conspiracy theorists, 0:01:02.773,0:01:05.306 long before the new coronavirus appeared.[br]And now, 0:01:05.725,0:01:07.923 the myths have just been [br]tweaked a bit. 0:01:08.526,0:01:11.411 It's not merely an opinion[br]or an interesting conspiracy, 0:01:11.411,0:01:13.245 it's just bollocks. 0:01:14.864,0:01:18.753 So what is it about conspiracy theories[br]that makes them so appealing 0:01:18.753,0:01:20.130 in a time of crisis? 0:01:20.336,0:01:22.247 And how can we best combat them? 0:01:22.936,0:01:25.491 I'm Ian Sample, the science editor[br]at The Guardian, 0:01:25.816,0:01:27.414 and this is Science Weekly. 0:01:31.436,0:01:33.136 I'm Dr Daniel Jolley. 0:01:33.342,0:01:37.484 I'm a senior lecturer in psychology[br]based at Northumbria University 0:01:37.484,0:01:43.219 in Newcastle in the UK and my expertise is[br]in the psychology of conspiracy theories. 0:01:43.219,0:01:44.829 Hi Dan, how are you doing? 0:01:44.845,0:01:47.159 I'm doing well[br]thanks so much for having me here. 0:01:47.159,0:01:49.341 So Dan, let's start with the basics, 0:01:49.341,0:01:53.786 what is a conspiracy theory,[br]as opposed to misinformation, say? 0:01:54.234,0:01:58.421 So the whole difference[br]with a conspiracy theory is the idea 0:01:58.421,0:02:03.739 that there is a powerful group plotting[br]something secret for their own gain. 0:02:04.011,0:02:10.113 So something can just be fake, that[br]there is no hidden motive behind it. 0:02:10.330,0:02:12.289 I mean there is a cardinal difference, 0:02:12.291,0:02:14.569 it's pointing the finger[br]at a group of people 0:02:14.569,0:02:19.217 and blaming them for their wrongdoings,[br]blaming them for the virus, for example. 0:02:19.587,0:02:22.292 What is it about conspiracy theories,[br]generally, 0:02:22.292,0:02:24.508 that makes them so appealing to us? 0:02:24.900,0:02:28.363 Well, conspiracy theories in general[br]have been shown to arise 0:02:28.363,0:02:33.715 in moments of crisis, when we have the[br]need to feel in control, to feel certain. 0:02:34.166,0:02:37.565 And in these kind of rapid crises[br]we feel threatened, 0:02:37.567,0:02:39.856 we feel unsure of what is happening, 0:02:39.958,0:02:42.672 which is exactly what is happening[br]with Covid-19 0:02:42.672,0:02:45.499 I always thought that believing [br]in conspiracy theories 0:02:45.499,0:02:48.902 would make people feel more anxious,[br]but it sounds like, actually, 0:02:48.902,0:02:50.431 they have the opposite effect. 0:02:50.431,0:02:53.216 Well, it's a really interesting[br]point there. 0:02:53.964,0:02:56.968 People who have this need to feel[br]in control, 0:02:56.968,0:02:59.787 the influence on them actually may[br]just be quite temporal. 0:02:59.787,0:03:02.972 They may seem appealing,[br]but they're not satisfying. 0:03:03.167,0:03:06.796 Could be shown that people who are[br]exposed to conspiracy theories 0:03:06.796,0:03:09.929 actually have further mistrust[br]of those around them. 0:03:10.130,0:03:12.539 It actually increases their feeling[br]of anxiety. 0:03:12.830,0:03:17.116 Often it is because if you don't subscribe[br]to one conspiracy belief, 0:03:17.116,0:03:19.353 you then start questioning other things, 0:03:19.639,0:03:22.230 which means its kind of ramping up[br]your mistrust, 0:03:22.230,0:03:27.644 and you kind of feel a feeling of [br]uncertainty of you living in your society. 0:03:27.818,0:03:32.173 So when they emerge in times of crisis,[br]they may temporarily 0:03:32.279,0:03:35.361 make us feel more secure[br]but that will not be long-lasting. 0:03:35.903,0:03:38.531 This must be[br]a bit of a boom time for you, 0:03:38.699,0:03:41.712 as someone who studies conspiracy theories[br]I mean, we've seen, 0:03:41.869,0:03:45.256 you know, a bunch of them around recently,[br]from 5G masts, 0:03:45.256,0:03:48.560 man-made viruses coming out of[br]Chinese labs. I mean, 0:03:48.795,0:03:53.131 what is it about a pandemic[br]that seems to drive so many? 0:03:53.563,0:03:58.273 Covid-19 is not unique in regards to[br]having conspiracy theories bloom about it. 0:04:00.892,0:04:03.444 Thinking back to Zika, 2015, 0:04:03.444,0:04:07.400 there were conspiracy theories suggesting[br]Zika was a man-made weapon. 0:04:07.653,0:04:12.055 Zika is a mosquito-transmitted virus[br]that has led to travel warnings 0:04:12.055,0:04:14.290 in South America and Caribbean countries. 0:04:14.354,0:04:17.911 Is Zika caused by [br]genetically modified mosquitoes? 0:04:18.081,0:04:22.406 We're fact-checking this conspiracy theory[br]making the rounds on Facebook. 0:04:22.666,0:04:24.833 It's fair that the conspiracy now to [br]emerge, 0:04:25.041,0:04:28.169 when people are talking about extreme[br]uncertainty. 0:04:28.448,0:04:33.650 So when they felt uncertain, they now (??)[br]conspiracy theories was more blooming. 0:04:33.931,0:04:36.254 And the same thing is happening with [br]COVID-19. 0:04:36.438,0:04:40.473 The Trump administration has repeatedly[br]pushed the narrative that the Coronavirus 0:04:40.506,0:04:46.017 may have escaped from a Chinese laboratory[br]in Wuhan, rather than originating with an 0:04:46.036,0:04:50.284 animal in a seafood market in Wuhan, which[br]is the leading medical theory. 0:04:51.074,0:04:54.644 Because the world is definitely chaotic,[br]and it offers some kind of tangible 0:04:55.546,0:04:57.908 personal group to blame for [br]what is happening. 0:05:00.789,0:05:05.752 It sounds like, then, that it's [br]pretty typical to see conspiracy theories 0:05:05.752,0:05:08.734 spring up around any big event. 0:05:08.734,0:05:12.747 Do you think we're just seeing more now or[br]we're aware of more now, because they're 0:05:12.747,0:05:14.541 spreading through social media? 0:05:14.684,0:05:18.590 There's no hard data that [br]demonstrates that today with the 0:05:18.590,0:05:23.004 internet, conspiracy theories are more [br]popular. So it may just be us assuming 0:05:23.004,0:05:27.408 they are. I think it's important, though, [br]to really look into this, and to see the 0:05:27.408,0:05:32.417 peril that social media can have. Thinking[br]about the 5G conspiracy, it seemed to 0:05:32.417,0:05:37.834 emerge from social media, where the [br]algorithms and Facebook picked up chatter 0:05:37.834,0:05:43.207 with regards to 5G, and brought it into[br]the trending. And then, during videos 0:05:43.207,0:05:49.179 people in the comments were talking about[br]the masts and how one way to stop COVID is 0:05:49.179,0:05:53.220 by the masts and pulling them down, etc. [br]So that's something that's potentially 0:05:53.220,0:05:58.786 quite novel in that that fast interaction[br]may have actually sped up the kind of 0:05:58.786,0:06:00.775 insurgence of the conspiracy.[br]It's a real 0:06:03.298,0:06:04.298 interesting problem 0:06:05.060,0:06:05.941 with regards to 0:06:05.941,0:06:06.542 Facebook and 0:06:06.542,0:06:07.144 social media 0:06:07.144,0:06:12.214 in general, and how they deal with [br]conspiracy theories, because someone's conspiracy 0:06:12.214,0:06:17.748 theory is someone's truth, in essence. So [br]it's how do we define what a conspiracy 0:06:17.748,0:06:22.436 theory is. And indeed, by banning, for [br]example, conspiracy theories on platforms 0:06:22.993,0:06:27.317 will just reaffirm the suspicions that [br]people have, that they're trying to hide 0:06:27.317,0:06:31.604 something. So you may actually increase [br]people's conspiracy theorizing, because 0:06:31.604,0:06:37.826 they are being silenced. So it's that[br]balance of insuring there's a space and a 0:06:37.826,0:06:42.199 platform for people to have free speech,[br]to be able to discuss issues, and to, you 0:06:42.199,0:06:46.607 know, question things, which I think is[br]important that we question, but then the 0:06:46.607,0:06:51.455 balance comes by that things aren't made[br]into the trending pages that are not based 0:06:51.455,0:06:58.329 on truth. So right now, Facebook and etc.,[br]are taking down content that they see to 0:06:58.329,0:07:03.826 be inciting violence, and that can [br]actually be a hinder to curbing COVID-19, 0:07:03.826,0:07:08.404 which is think is a positive first step, [br]but it's not going to fix the issue as a 0:07:08.404,0:07:09.928 broad issue in the future. 0:07:11.456,0:07:14.326 So maybe, [br]thinking about the individual as well, 0:07:14.486,0:07:19.666 and insuring the individual has the skill [br]sets to really ask the questions, but also 0:07:19.666,0:07:24.669 evaluate the evidence. So we know those[br]people who lack critical thinking 0:07:24.669,0:07:29.191 abilities are more likely to believe in[br]conspiracy theories, and we also know that 0:07:29.191,0:07:32.707 people who in believe in conspiracies is[br]because they want to understand 0:07:32.707,0:07:37.136 the world, but they're struggling to [br]evaluate the evidence. So potentially us 0:07:37.136,0:07:42.890 trying to instil those skill sets, may[br]mean that they're able to resist the 0:07:43.188,0:07:47.356 conspiracy narrative. Let's talk a bit[br]more about the psychology of people who 0:07:47.602,0:07:52.494 believe in conspiracy theories or tend to[br]believe in them. Are there characteristics 0:07:52.911,0:07:59.134 or personality traits that make people[br]maybe more susceptible to these kinds of 0:07:59.134,0:08:00.676 theories than others? 0:08:01.193,0:08:05.401 There are a range of different needs[br]that are met by conspiracy theories, 0:08:05.401,0:08:10.118 while there's also kind of a social [br]element whereby we want to affirm 0:08:10.118,0:08:15.146 ourselves and also the groups that we [br]belong in. And interestingly, research in 0:08:15.146,0:08:20.195 America has found that in regards to [br]politics, the conspiracy theories switch 0:08:21.048,0:08:26.261 depending on who is in power. So it's very[br]much a prophecies in play here, where 0:08:26.261,0:08:30.630 you're just affirming your identity, the[br]others, those are the ones who are 0:08:30.630,0:08:33.831 conspiring, and that can change depending[br]on the context. 0:08:34.075,0:08:37.502 It sounds like some other sort of[br]traits might come into play as well, 0:08:37.418,0:08:43.653 around how people see themselves, their[br]social self-image, but also whether 0:08:43.653,0:08:46.315 people have been sort of marginalized in[br]the past? 0:08:46.315,0:08:51.511 Absolutely. So, research has found that [br]being a narcissist is more predictively 0:08:51.511,0:08:55.656 believing in conspiracy theories,[br]and also, it has been shown that people 0:08:55.656,0:08:57.344 who are from disadvantaged groups, 0:08:57.574,0:09:00.618 because if you have received[br]discrimination in the past, 0:09:00.618,0:09:04.374 you may be more likely to perceive[br]that people are out to get you. 0:09:04.374,0:09:07.224 Because once upon a time, maybe they were. 0:09:07.771,0:09:11.942 So prior experiences may also play a role[br]in making you more susceptible. 0:09:12.358,0:09:16.087 And then, when you're in an environment[br]that increases your uncertainty, 0:09:16.087,0:09:18.933 increases your threat, like COVID-19, 0:09:18.933,0:09:23.357 you may be more susceptible[br]to subscribe to these conspiracy theories. 0:09:23.693,0:09:27.033 And indeed, a consistent finding[br]in the literature is 0:09:27.033,0:09:30.647 that if you believe in one conspiracy,[br]you believe in many others. 0:09:30.822,0:09:32.829 Also, interestingly,[br]researchers find that 0:09:32.829,0:09:37.502 you can believe in mutually exclusive [br]conspiracy theories. Because, it's all 0:09:37.512,0:09:41.812 based around this world view that[br]conspiracy theories in the world. So that 0:09:41.830,0:09:47.760 means that someone may believe that the [br]virus was human-made, but also believing 0:09:47.760,0:09:52.212 it is caused by 5G. Whilst these two [br]things can't necessarily happen at the 0:09:52.212,0:09:57.619 same time, it's in this process if you [br]feel distrust, of society, of people who 0:09:57.619,0:10:01.006 we see to be in power, you can subscribe [br]to these ideas. [Music] 0:10:05.558,0:10:10.279 When I've seen conspiracy theorists[br]talking about their beliefs, it's clear 0:10:10.279,0:10:15.766 that there's a real urge to pull together[br]strands of evidence, and to collect 0:10:15.766,0:10:21.495 evidence, and say, pull together these [br]sort of desperate things, and many of them 0:10:21.495,0:10:26.882 seem to see themselves as like, the real[br]critical thinkers, but I'm wondering what 0:10:26.896,0:10:30.666 kind of biases are coming into play there,[br]that are actually within those people, to 0:10:30.666,0:10:32.439 make them believe these kinds of theories. 0:10:33.369,0:10:37.046 (DJ) One of the biases is confirmation [br]bias, that we're all susceptible to. 0:10:37.581,0:10:42.613 This is the idea that we only really [br]listen to evidence that supports our prior 0:10:42.613,0:10:48.217 beliefs. Things that go against it, that [br]discredit our beliefs, we ignore. 0:10:50.645,0:10:55.923 There's also biases based around [br]personality bias, with COVID-19, it's such 0:10:55.923,0:11:02.235 a large event, worldwide, to explain this[br]as something from animals doesn't really 0:11:02.235,0:11:07.026 make sense. But to explain this as a [br]conspiracy where it was human-made, 0:11:07.761,0:11:11.489 the proportionality matches the cause,[br]it all kind of fits together. 0:11:14.545,0:11:20.660 So, we can, in situations where these [br]events arise, be more drawn to conspiracy 0:11:20.660,0:11:24.811 narratives. We then stay in our echo [br]chambers in our online world. 0:11:25.511,0:11:30.813 It can be tough debating and arguing[br]with people who believe in conspiracy 0:11:30.813,0:11:36.479 theories, and okay, some of them are [br]harmless, but some of them really aren't. 0:11:36.658,0:11:41.629 I mean, as someone who really studies[br]them, do you have a sense of how best 0:11:41.629,0:11:44.688 we can combat them, the ones that are[br]dangerous? 0:11:44.696,0:11:48.664 Interventions are really challenging,[br]but of course, as you say, they're really 0:11:48.664,0:11:55.019 important, so potentially targeting the[br]general population, and targeting those 0:11:55.019,0:11:59.135 who are hardened conspiracy theorists, [br]may be slightly different. 0:11:59.135,0:12:05.567 So for example, we know that using counter[br]arguments, giving people facts, can reduce 0:12:05.567,0:12:11.952 belief in conspiracy theories. But, if you[br]harbor a conspiracy belief, and you see 0:12:11.952,0:12:17.034 some counter material from the government,[br]you are going to discredit that, because 0:12:17.034,0:12:22.316 of your confirmation bias. So indeed, for [br]others, it may be having people become 0:12:22.316,0:12:26.947 trusted messengers, where you're not[br]aggressive, but instead, talk to them 0:12:26.947,0:12:30.825 about their beliefs, get them to really[br]kind of think hard about the evidence 0:12:30.825,0:12:35.004 that they are, you know, really kind of[br]suggesting is the be and end all, and 0:12:35.004,0:12:39.534 that maybe that kind of thinking process[br]and get them to re-evaluate may start 0:12:39.534,0:12:43.557 changing their beliefs. Of course, this [br]I'm sure would work for the general 0:12:43.557,0:12:49.631 population as well, so I think with [br]ensuring that the landscape on Twitter, on 0:12:49.631,0:12:54.847 Facebook is full of facts is really [br]important, but then still acknowledging 0:12:54.847,0:12:59.193 that those who are on the hardened end[br]of the conspiracy theorizing may distrust 0:12:59.193,0:13:03.790 that straight away. So it's definitely a [br]challenge, but I think it's important to 0:13:03.790,0:13:04.625 really evaluate. 0:13:05.028,0:13:09.690 Dan, finally, how do you think you [br]fair in all of this? I mean, do you feel 0:13:09.690,0:13:15.441 you're immune to conspiracy theories that[br]you can tell pretty much on contact 0:13:15.441,0:13:18.684 whether something's real or BS? 0:13:18.684,0:13:24.117 It's really difficult to tell the [br]truth from the untruthful, from the fake 0:13:24.117,0:13:28.933 news, but the conspiracy's always based[br]around pointing the finger at those in 0:13:28.933,0:13:35.362 authority, and suggesting that they are [br]conspiring. I try and have trust in the 0:13:35.362,0:13:41.271 gatekeepers, where I also trust the [br]journalists, to ask the questions, and 0:13:41.271,0:13:45.608 the conspiracy theories that have been [br]proven to be true, have always been driven 0:13:45.608,0:13:51.476 by journalism. So, having the trust in our[br]society that if a conspiracy is occuring, 0:13:51.476,0:13:54.335 it will come out by these natural [br]processes. 0:13:58.445,0:14:01.788 Wonderful stuff. Dan, thank you so[br]much for joining us. 0:14:01.891,0:14:03.253 Pleasure, thank you so much. 0:14:05.843,0:14:10.275 Thanks to Dan for joining me this[br]week. As we continue to follow the 0:14:10.275,0:14:14.376 COVID-19 outbreak, we'd love to keep[br]hearing your questions. You can send them 0:14:14.376,0:14:20.527 in via the form we've set up, just head[br]over to theguardian.com/covid19questions, 0:14:20.527,0:14:24.523 that's all one word.[br]And also thank those who support 0:14:24.523,0:14:25.425 as listeners. 0:14:25.425,0:14:29.788 In times like this, trusted news is more[br]important than ever, and here at the 0:14:29.788,0:14:34.954 Guardian we are 100% committed to [br]accurate and reliable news, but in order 0:14:34.954,0:14:40.086 to help us do that, we need your support.[br]To find out more, please go to 0:14:40.086,0:14:45.201 theguardian.com/supportpodcast, again[br]all one word. 0:14:45.201,0:14:48.711 Look after yourselves and stay well, [br]see you back here soon. 0:14:58.217,0:15:01.542 [Outro][br]For more great podcasts from the Guardian, 0:15:01.567,0:15:04.960 just go to theguardian.com/podcasts.