1 00:00:01,888 --> 00:00:03,582 I study rumors. 2 00:00:04,136 --> 00:00:05,567 Not tabloid gossip 3 00:00:05,567 --> 00:00:08,718 or the kind of rumors that are making stock markets crash -- 4 00:00:08,718 --> 00:00:10,684 or soar, 5 00:00:10,684 --> 00:00:13,640 but the kind of rumors that effect your health ... 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,039 and the world's health. 7 00:00:15,418 --> 00:00:17,938 Like eating a lot of garlic 8 00:00:17,938 --> 00:00:19,233 or drinking a lot of water 9 00:00:19,233 --> 00:00:22,274 is going to help protect us from coronavirus -- 10 00:00:22,274 --> 00:00:23,474 if only. 11 00:00:23,824 --> 00:00:26,169 Rumors have a bad reputation. 12 00:00:27,014 --> 00:00:32,347 There seen as "not fact," wrong or "just a rumor." 13 00:00:33,439 --> 00:00:35,903 But I've studied rumors for years, 14 00:00:35,903 --> 00:00:39,721 and one thing I've learned is that they all have a story, 15 00:00:39,721 --> 00:00:41,893 and often, an important story. 16 00:00:42,392 --> 00:00:48,346 One of the most moving or alarming rumor episodes that I investigated 17 00:00:48,346 --> 00:00:50,245 was in Northern Nigeria. 18 00:00:50,870 --> 00:00:54,057 I was working with UNICEF's global immunization program. 19 00:00:55,123 --> 00:00:59,139 And it wasn't the rumors themselves that I found so alarming; 20 00:00:59,139 --> 00:01:01,757 it was the global impact of those rumors. 21 00:01:03,225 --> 00:01:05,075 The rumors were suspecting 22 00:01:05,075 --> 00:01:09,572 that the polio vaccine was actually a contraceptive; 23 00:01:09,572 --> 00:01:12,403 it was controlling populations -- 24 00:01:12,403 --> 00:01:15,340 or maybe it caused AIDS. 25 00:01:16,295 --> 00:01:20,364 No, no, maybe it's the CIA spying on them or counting them. 26 00:01:20,690 --> 00:01:26,419 I mean, why else would they have people knocking on their door again and again 27 00:01:26,419 --> 00:01:29,375 with the same polio vaccine? 28 00:01:29,855 --> 00:01:32,702 When children were dying of measles, 29 00:01:32,702 --> 00:01:35,412 no one was coming with measles vaccines. 30 00:01:37,890 --> 00:01:41,157 This wasn't about getting the facts right. 31 00:01:41,157 --> 00:01:42,805 This was about trust. 32 00:01:43,238 --> 00:01:44,976 It was about broken trust. 33 00:01:45,607 --> 00:01:47,501 Why so much distrust? 34 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,713 It wasn't the mothers who were particularly distrusting, actually. 35 00:01:51,968 --> 00:01:53,853 It was the local leaders, 36 00:01:53,853 --> 00:01:55,511 the religious leaders, 37 00:01:55,511 --> 00:01:57,024 the local political leaders. 38 00:01:57,356 --> 00:02:00,645 It was the governor of the state of Kano 39 00:02:00,645 --> 00:02:02,486 who decided to boycott 40 00:02:02,486 --> 00:02:07,221 the entire polio eradication effort in that state ... 41 00:02:07,221 --> 00:02:09,142 for 11 months. 42 00:02:10,194 --> 00:02:12,240 Why such distrust? 43 00:02:12,679 --> 00:02:14,803 Well, it was 2003. 44 00:02:15,238 --> 00:02:18,482 It was two years after 9/11. 45 00:02:18,752 --> 00:02:21,897 And they were convinced that the West, 46 00:02:21,897 --> 00:02:24,191 and particularly the United States, 47 00:02:24,191 --> 00:02:26,042 was at war with Muslims. 48 00:02:26,481 --> 00:02:28,733 And they knew that the West, 49 00:02:28,733 --> 00:02:30,988 and particularly the United States, 50 00:02:30,988 --> 00:02:32,673 was a huge supporter -- 51 00:02:32,673 --> 00:02:34,121 and funder -- 52 00:02:34,121 --> 00:02:36,828 of the global polio eradication initiative. 53 00:02:37,220 --> 00:02:39,121 They had their reasoning. 54 00:02:39,906 --> 00:02:42,787 That lack of trust, 55 00:02:42,787 --> 00:02:46,282 that "just a rumor or two" 56 00:02:46,282 --> 00:02:52,481 cost the polio eradication program 500 million dollars 57 00:02:52,481 --> 00:02:54,091 to reset the clock, 58 00:02:54,091 --> 00:02:58,134 to regain the progress lost during those 11 months 59 00:02:58,134 --> 00:02:59,609 and beyond. 60 00:02:59,795 --> 00:03:05,623 The Nigerian strain of the polio virus traveled to over 20 countries 61 00:03:05,623 --> 00:03:07,473 as far as Indonesia. 62 00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:10,617 The cost of a rumor. 63 00:03:11,923 --> 00:03:16,117 The Nigeria episode was one of many episodes that I investigated 64 00:03:16,117 --> 00:03:17,700 when I was with UNICEF 65 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:22,113 and earned the title of the director of UNICEF's fire department. 66 00:03:25,075 --> 00:03:28,166 At that point I realized I never really had enough time. 67 00:03:28,395 --> 00:03:30,468 I was too busy putting out the fires 68 00:03:30,468 --> 00:03:32,547 and not enough time to understand 69 00:03:32,547 --> 00:03:36,567 what was driving not just the individual episodes, 70 00:03:36,567 --> 00:03:40,636 but why was there an epidemic of these happening around the world. 71 00:03:41,445 --> 00:03:45,142 I left UNICEF and went back to research -- 72 00:03:45,142 --> 00:03:47,378 applied research -- 73 00:03:47,378 --> 00:03:54,300 and I set up in 2010 what I called the Vaccine Confidence Project 74 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:57,451 at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. 75 00:03:58,403 --> 00:04:00,189 I convened antrhopologists, 76 00:04:00,189 --> 00:04:01,688 epidemiologists, 77 00:04:01,688 --> 00:04:03,223 psychologists, 78 00:04:03,223 --> 00:04:06,236 digital media specialists 79 00:04:06,236 --> 00:04:08,237 and mathematical modelers. 80 00:04:08,527 --> 00:04:11,032 We set ourselves the task 81 00:04:11,032 --> 00:04:15,229 to investigate historic episodes of rumors 82 00:04:15,229 --> 00:04:17,234 and their impacts, 83 00:04:17,234 --> 00:04:21,281 from trying to figure out what were the early signals, 84 00:04:21,281 --> 00:04:23,151 what were the amplifying factors 85 00:04:23,151 --> 00:04:24,830 and the impacts, 86 00:04:24,830 --> 00:04:26,647 how did they get traction, 87 00:04:26,647 --> 00:04:30,582 so we could start to understand what we should be looking for, 88 00:04:30,582 --> 00:04:32,371 how we could help governments 89 00:04:32,371 --> 00:04:36,649 and immunization programs be more alert and responsive 90 00:04:36,649 --> 00:04:39,454 to early signals of problems. 91 00:04:40,241 --> 00:04:42,137 It was an early warning system. 92 00:04:42,834 --> 00:04:46,955 In 2015 we developed a vaccine confidence index. 93 00:04:47,647 --> 00:04:53,737 It's a survey trying to investigate to what extent do people agree 94 00:04:53,737 --> 00:04:56,924 or disagree that vaccines are important, 95 00:04:56,924 --> 00:04:58,336 they're safe, 96 00:04:58,336 --> 00:04:59,434 they're effective -- 97 00:04:59,434 --> 00:05:00,480 they work -- 98 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,763 and somehow they're compatible with my religious beliefs. 99 00:05:04,049 --> 00:05:08,625 We've run this with over hundreds of thousands of people around the world, 100 00:05:08,625 --> 00:05:13,609 trying to get our finger on the pulse of confidence and trust, 101 00:05:13,609 --> 00:05:20,006 but also, more importantly, looking at when that trust goes up or down, 102 00:05:20,006 --> 00:05:23,538 because we want to see when it starts to decline, 103 00:05:23,538 --> 00:05:25,941 that's the time to jump in, 104 00:05:25,941 --> 00:05:30,505 to get there before there's a crisis like the Nigerian one. 105 00:05:31,786 --> 00:05:36,957 We also set up 24/7 media and social media monitoring around the world -- 106 00:05:36,957 --> 00:05:38,715 multilanguage, 107 00:05:38,715 --> 00:05:43,052 listening for what's going on on vaccine conversations, 108 00:05:43,052 --> 00:05:46,524 trying to pick up early concerns or changes in sentiment 109 00:05:46,524 --> 00:05:48,996 that we should be paying attention to. 110 00:05:49,488 --> 00:05:54,298 We've created an ecosystem of different types of information 111 00:05:54,298 --> 00:05:58,055 to try to understand what are the public thinking 112 00:05:58,055 --> 00:05:59,736 and how can we engage? 113 00:06:00,522 --> 00:06:01,891 We look for early signals. 114 00:06:02,122 --> 00:06:03,487 When we find one, 115 00:06:03,487 --> 00:06:07,202 we have global network of collaborators in a number of countries 116 00:06:07,202 --> 00:06:09,910 who have more local intelligence in that setting, 117 00:06:09,910 --> 00:06:11,626 to try to understand: 118 00:06:11,626 --> 00:06:13,981 is this signal misinformation 119 00:06:13,981 --> 00:06:16,690 or is something brewing that we should know about? 120 00:06:17,703 --> 00:06:19,573 In London, we have a bigger picture; 121 00:06:19,573 --> 00:06:23,757 we watch the swarms of rumors not just traveling locally 122 00:06:23,757 --> 00:06:25,476 but jumping countires. 123 00:06:25,686 --> 00:06:29,328 We've seen them jump from Japan over to Columbia, 124 00:06:29,328 --> 00:06:31,127 through Europe and around. 125 00:06:31,391 --> 00:06:32,580 They move. 126 00:06:32,782 --> 00:06:35,591 We live in a hyper-connected environment. 127 00:06:36,239 --> 00:06:39,178 One of the things that we found fascinating, 128 00:06:39,178 --> 00:06:41,429 and we've learned a lot in the last 10 years -- 129 00:06:41,429 --> 00:06:43,933 this is our 10th anniversary, 130 00:06:43,933 --> 00:06:45,470 this didn't start yesterday, 131 00:06:45,470 --> 00:06:47,061 this rumor problem -- 132 00:06:47,061 --> 00:06:48,895 and one of the things we learned 133 00:06:48,895 --> 00:06:51,156 is in our global monitoring, 134 00:06:51,156 --> 00:06:54,974 that Europe is the most skeptical region in the world. 135 00:06:55,581 --> 00:06:57,394 France won the prize actually. 136 00:06:57,566 --> 00:06:58,558 (Laughter) 137 00:06:58,729 --> 00:06:59,776 By far. 138 00:07:00,294 --> 00:07:04,218 And actually some of those rumors have traveled to other parts of the world. 139 00:07:05,277 --> 00:07:07,583 But we were trying to understand Europe. 140 00:07:07,741 --> 00:07:08,409 Hm. 141 00:07:08,617 --> 00:07:09,576 Why Europe? 142 00:07:09,781 --> 00:07:11,444 I thought the US was really -- 143 00:07:11,444 --> 00:07:13,277 had some of the most skepticism, 144 00:07:13,277 --> 00:07:15,284 but boy, I was wrong. 145 00:07:15,663 --> 00:07:17,041 And a political scientist, 146 00:07:17,041 --> 00:07:18,662 a colleague we work with, 147 00:07:18,662 --> 00:07:20,299 John Kennedy, 148 00:07:20,299 --> 00:07:24,370 he took our data from 28 European countries 149 00:07:24,370 --> 00:07:25,626 and he looked at it 150 00:07:25,626 --> 00:07:28,416 and correlated it with political opinion polling. 151 00:07:29,428 --> 00:07:30,862 And what did he find? 152 00:07:31,095 --> 00:07:37,367 He found that people who are most likely to vote for a populous party 153 00:07:37,367 --> 00:07:40,901 also were the ones the most likely to strongly disagree 154 00:07:40,901 --> 00:07:43,844 that vaccines were important, safe or effective. 155 00:07:44,530 --> 00:07:45,749 What did we learn? 156 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:51,236 Vaccines cannot escape the politcal and social turbulance 157 00:07:51,236 --> 00:07:52,762 that surrounds it. 158 00:07:52,949 --> 00:07:58,182 Scientists were unprepared for this tsunami of doubt 159 00:07:58,182 --> 00:07:59,218 and questions 160 00:07:59,218 --> 00:08:00,617 and distrust. 161 00:08:00,897 --> 00:08:01,929 What -- 162 00:08:01,929 --> 00:08:05,567 why are vaccines so ripe for resistance? 163 00:08:06,379 --> 00:08:08,283 Well, we identified a number of things, 164 00:08:08,283 --> 00:08:09,533 but one: 165 00:08:09,533 --> 00:08:14,261 they're highly mediated by government that require, regulates 166 00:08:14,261 --> 00:08:18,077 and sometimes recommmends vaccines, 167 00:08:18,077 --> 00:08:20,901 or often recommends or sometimes requires. 168 00:08:22,238 --> 00:08:24,473 Big business makes vaccines, 169 00:08:24,473 --> 00:08:26,016 and neither institution, 170 00:08:26,016 --> 00:08:28,080 government or big business, 171 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,618 are high in the trust ranks these days. 172 00:08:31,364 --> 00:08:35,084 And then there's scientists who discover and develop vaccines, 173 00:08:35,084 --> 00:08:37,015 and they're pretty elite 174 00:08:37,015 --> 00:08:39,630 and not accessible to the general public, 175 00:08:39,630 --> 00:08:41,580 at least the language they speak. 176 00:08:42,820 --> 00:08:48,436 Third, we're in a hyper-connected environment with social media these days, 177 00:08:48,436 --> 00:08:55,364 and people can share their unfettered views, concerns, anxieties and worries 178 00:08:55,364 --> 00:08:58,755 and find a lot of people that think the way they do, 179 00:08:58,755 --> 00:09:04,414 and think maybe their worries are worth paying attention to. 180 00:09:05,057 --> 00:09:06,373 And finally, 181 00:09:06,373 --> 00:09:10,708 vaccines touch every single life on the planet. 182 00:09:11,248 --> 00:09:13,710 What other health intervention, 183 00:09:13,710 --> 00:09:15,407 besides water, 184 00:09:15,407 --> 00:09:18,406 touches every single life? 185 00:09:19,171 --> 00:09:22,204 So if you're looking for something to disrupt, 186 00:09:22,204 --> 00:09:23,902 it's a perfect stage. 187 00:09:25,122 --> 00:09:29,689 Perhaps that's one of the reasons that we need to pay more attention 188 00:09:29,689 --> 00:09:32,726 and rebuild our trust in issues. 189 00:09:33,318 --> 00:09:35,728 People are asking all kinds of questions. 190 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,354 They're asking, 191 00:09:38,354 --> 00:09:40,209 why are vaccines -- 192 00:09:40,209 --> 00:09:44,237 and these are the kinds of things we're hearing in our social media -- 193 00:09:44,237 --> 00:09:49,356 why can't my child have a personalized vaccination schedule? 194 00:09:50,223 --> 00:09:52,642 What the wisdom of so many vaccines? 195 00:09:54,171 --> 00:09:57,148 What about all those ingredients and preservatives? 196 00:09:57,925 --> 00:10:00,080 These are not crazy people, 197 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,337 they're not uneducated; 198 00:10:02,337 --> 00:10:04,510 they're actually worried mothers. 199 00:10:05,443 --> 00:10:10,658 But some of them have come to me and said we feel ignored, 200 00:10:10,658 --> 00:10:13,922 we feel judged if we ask a question, 201 00:10:13,922 --> 00:10:15,604 and we even feel demonized 202 00:10:15,604 --> 00:10:18,942 that maybe we're part of some antivaccine group. 203 00:10:20,126 --> 00:10:22,147 So we have some listening to do. 204 00:10:22,726 --> 00:10:25,305 And maybe that's why last year, 205 00:10:25,305 --> 00:10:27,324 there was research that found 206 00:10:27,324 --> 00:10:33,608 that in six months in 2019, 207 00:10:33,608 --> 00:10:34,888 online -- 208 00:10:34,888 --> 00:10:36,297 this was with hundreds -- 209 00:10:36,297 --> 00:10:40,343 100 million different users on social media -- 210 00:10:40,343 --> 00:10:46,073 although the numbers of individuals who expressed in their online groups 211 00:10:46,073 --> 00:10:47,734 they were positive, 212 00:10:47,734 --> 00:10:49,126 as groups, 213 00:10:49,126 --> 00:10:51,611 the ones who are the most negative 214 00:10:51,611 --> 00:10:55,446 were recruiting the conversations in the middle 215 00:10:55,446 --> 00:10:59,513 that were undecided about whether they wanted to get vaccines. 216 00:10:59,779 --> 00:11:01,293 The highly negative -- 217 00:11:01,293 --> 00:11:03,640 what we might call the antivaccine groups, 218 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:11,463 were recruiting the undecided at a rate 500 percent faster 219 00:11:11,463 --> 00:11:13,491 than the pro-vaccine groups. 220 00:11:14,179 --> 00:11:15,974 500 percent faster. 221 00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:17,878 They were more nimble, 222 00:11:17,878 --> 00:11:19,278 they were responsive 223 00:11:19,278 --> 00:11:20,964 and they were listening. 224 00:11:21,164 --> 00:11:24,367 Most people believe that vaccines are good 225 00:11:24,367 --> 00:11:26,330 and they believe in their importance. 226 00:11:26,730 --> 00:11:28,866 But that belief is under attack. 227 00:11:29,529 --> 00:11:33,553 We need to build in more opportunities for conversation. 228 00:11:34,059 --> 00:11:35,788 And there are ways to do it. 229 00:11:35,988 --> 00:11:38,445 It's not easy for some health professionals 230 00:11:38,445 --> 00:11:41,933 to have conversations where their authority is questioned. 231 00:11:42,565 --> 00:11:43,944 It's uncomfortable. 232 00:11:44,435 --> 00:11:47,682 And they're just too busy to listen to all these questions. 233 00:11:48,446 --> 00:11:50,758 But we need to to do something about that 234 00:11:50,758 --> 00:11:54,364 because we're losing a lot of concerned parents 235 00:11:54,364 --> 00:11:56,633 that just want a conversation. 236 00:11:57,496 --> 00:12:01,770 We should get volunteers trained to sit in waiting rooms, 237 00:12:01,770 --> 00:12:03,700 to be on hotlines, 238 00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:06,067 to have online chat forums, 239 00:12:06,067 --> 00:12:07,686 to have chat boxes. 240 00:12:08,299 --> 00:12:09,619 In younger kids, 241 00:12:09,619 --> 00:12:11,602 with younger kids in school, 242 00:12:11,602 --> 00:12:13,937 teach them about immune systems 243 00:12:13,937 --> 00:12:15,690 and teach them that actually, 244 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:17,982 you know that vaccine your little brother got? 245 00:12:18,187 --> 00:12:22,620 Well, it just inspired your natural immune system. 246 00:12:23,579 --> 00:12:26,400 It's a great thing and this is why. 247 00:12:27,663 --> 00:12:29,454 We need to build that confidence; 248 00:12:29,454 --> 00:12:30,823 we need to listen. 249 00:12:32,620 --> 00:12:35,352 Despite all this questioning -- 250 00:12:35,352 --> 00:12:36,820 and there's a lot of it -- 251 00:12:36,820 --> 00:12:41,003 I probably hear more than a lot of people -- 252 00:12:41,003 --> 00:12:42,320 I am an optimist. 253 00:12:42,570 --> 00:12:46,484 And my optimism is with a younger generation. 254 00:12:47,175 --> 00:12:52,802 The younger generation who actually now are becoming very aware 255 00:12:52,802 --> 00:12:55,115 of the risks of social media, 256 00:12:55,115 --> 00:12:56,638 the false news, 257 00:12:56,638 --> 00:12:59,904 the false identities, 258 00:12:59,904 --> 00:13:02,259 and they're starting to embrace science. 259 00:13:02,884 --> 00:13:08,215 And some of them are a group of children whose mothers refused to vaccinate them. 260 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,477 Last spring of 2019, 261 00:13:13,477 --> 00:13:18,672 18-year-old Ethan Lindenburg went on Reddit 262 00:13:18,672 --> 00:13:20,414 and put out a post. 263 00:13:21,974 --> 00:13:24,859 "My mother doesn't believe in vaccines. 264 00:13:24,859 --> 00:13:27,550 She's really worried they cause autism. 265 00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:29,501 In fact, she strong believes that. 266 00:13:30,168 --> 00:13:31,388 But I'm 18. 267 00:13:31,980 --> 00:13:33,658 I'm a senior in high school. 268 00:13:33,977 --> 00:13:35,418 I can drive a car, 269 00:13:35,418 --> 00:13:36,524 I can vote, 270 00:13:36,524 --> 00:13:38,659 and I can go get my own vaccine. 271 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,955 Can someone tell me where to get it?" 272 00:13:41,556 --> 00:13:43,742 That post went viral. 273 00:13:44,174 --> 00:13:47,600 It started to get a whole younger movement going. 274 00:13:49,538 --> 00:13:52,378 I saw Ethan speak at a conference, 275 00:13:52,378 --> 00:13:55,825 the Global Vaccine Summit at the EU last fall. 276 00:13:56,667 --> 00:13:58,635 He spoke eloquently, 277 00:13:58,635 --> 00:14:00,193 and I was impressed 278 00:14:00,193 --> 00:14:02,125 in front of a whole forum. 279 00:14:03,005 --> 00:14:04,967 He told his personal story, 280 00:14:04,967 --> 00:14:06,593 and then he said to the group, 281 00:14:06,593 --> 00:14:10,089 he said, "You know, everybody talks about misinformation, 282 00:14:10,089 --> 00:14:14,247 but I want to tell you about a different kind of misinformation, 283 00:14:14,247 --> 00:14:19,575 and that's misinformation that says that people like my mother, 284 00:14:19,575 --> 00:14:21,472 who is loving mother, 285 00:14:21,472 --> 00:14:25,270 is bad person because she doesn't give me vaccines. 286 00:14:26,296 --> 00:14:31,189 Well, I want to tell all of you that she didn't give me a vaccine 287 00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:33,208 because she loves me 288 00:14:33,208 --> 00:14:37,639 and because she believed that that was the best thing for me. 289 00:14:38,271 --> 00:14:39,738 I think differently 290 00:14:39,738 --> 00:14:42,393 and I will never change her mind, 291 00:14:42,393 --> 00:14:44,465 but she's not a bad person." 292 00:14:45,506 --> 00:14:48,121 That was the message from a teenager. 293 00:14:48,806 --> 00:14:52,057 Empathy, kindness and understanding. 294 00:14:53,123 --> 00:14:56,699 We have an abundance of scientific information 295 00:14:56,699 --> 00:14:58,640 to debunk false rumors. 296 00:14:59,616 --> 00:15:01,125 That's not our problem. 297 00:15:01,838 --> 00:15:04,348 We have a relationship problem, 298 00:15:04,348 --> 00:15:06,524 not a misinformation problem. 299 00:15:06,848 --> 00:15:09,461 Misiniformation is a symptom, 300 00:15:09,461 --> 00:15:10,887 not the cause. 301 00:15:11,112 --> 00:15:13,075 If people trust, 302 00:15:13,075 --> 00:15:16,679 they'll put up with a little risk to avert a much bigger one. 303 00:15:17,613 --> 00:15:21,243 The one thing that I want and I hope for 304 00:15:21,243 --> 00:15:24,814 is that we as a medical and health community 305 00:15:24,814 --> 00:15:29,091 have the moral courage and humility 306 00:15:29,091 --> 00:15:31,443 to productively engage, 307 00:15:31,443 --> 00:15:32,779 like Ethan, 308 00:15:32,779 --> 00:15:35,102 with those who disagree with us. 309 00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:37,098 I hope so. 310 00:15:37,379 --> 00:15:38,484 Thank you. 311 00:15:38,732 --> 00:15:40,211 (Applause and cheers)