Methodist Pastor Experienced Revival, But Not Everyone Was Happy - A Must Watch For Pastors!

Hi! I just want to encourage all of you
out there, that are tuning in right now,

to really see this message
all the way through.

I really believe that the message
shared by Deron today,

is going to touch a lot of pastors.

There is something in this message
that I believe is for all of you out there,

and particularly pastors.
I really want to encourage you -

see this message all the way through.

And for those that are sitting in
your congregations,

for those of you who are not
in the pastoral role,

I really believe that you're gonna
see something in this message,

you're gonna hear something
that's gonna help connect you

to your pastor, something
that's been missing for a long time,

something that disconnected you
from that role,

and we really hope that you'll
develop a hart for pastors,

something that we believed that
you've always desired to connect with,

but in this message you're gonna
find something

that's gonna bring you to a place
where you're gonna love your pastors

in a way you never had before,
and really see the church wake up.

So, I want to encourage you, guys,
see this message, see it all the way through.

And we believe that you are going to be
truly blessed.

Welcome to this program.

Today we have a very, very
special person here.

Deron is one of the students
on the school now,

but he has a very interesting story.

He has been a Methodist pastor
for 28 years.

That is a lot of time.

28 years as a Methodist pastor.

But 15 months ago,
he experienced something.

He experienced the Holy Spirit.
He experienced a new dimension,

a new life, and he started to try
to get this in, to the church,

and six months later
he was thrown out.

He was fired.

And we want to hear his story.
I really, really, really believe

that his story can encourage you
out there,

you who are in church,
you who are in leadership,

you who are there struggling
and really want to reform the church,

but it's difficult. I also hope that
it will help you who are not in leadership,

to give you an insight of what, actually,
is to be in leadership,

because there are many people
who don't know what it is

to be in leadership, and often we speak
down on leaders,

because we don't know their hearts,

we don't know how much they are suffering
and what they are doing.

It's a beautiful story.
So, Deron, we want to hear your story.

In the beginning, if you can give to everyone
who see this, a little insight who you are.

Tell about a little about your life
and how you became a pastor

and what happened, and then,
we want to hear also even more

what happened 15 months ago.

Sure, absolutely. Basically, I was raised
in a big family in Southern Missouri.

We attended a Baptist church.

I was raised in the Baptist church,
baptized in the Baptist church at the age of 9,

where we really didn't hear much about
the Holy Spirit.

We didn't hear much about holiness,
or about striving to grow

and increase in your faith,
and so...

That just became a dormant part of my life.

It was something that I checked the box,
and I'm going to Heaven.

And that's all I need.

At least, that's how I perceived it.

And so, when I got into the middle school
and high school,

I started getting into some drugs
and alcohol, because,

unfortunately, I had a little bit
an abusive past,

background, growing up as a child.

Had been abused in about every way
possible.

And so I was a broken person

and so, the only thing I knew to do
was to medicate

and so I've medicated the alcohol
and drugs,

but also with sports.

In our family, I have five brothers,
and all of us six boys,

we had to play sports
or we had to have a job.

And I did not want to get a job.

So, we were all very good at sports, too.
Very good.

It helps being 6'6", the basketball came
naturally for me.

But again, that was self-medicating.

And I would hide behind it.

The day I graduated high school
I joined the Army.

I wanted to get as far away from home
as possible.

I thought I could do better
without help.

And so I joined the Army.

Played in the Army bands for four years,
as a trombonist.

But the problem is, in the military
a drug and alcohol are more accessible.

Now, I still had underpinnings
of Christianity in my life,

and so I knew that whenever I had needs
I could go to the church,

or if I was, you know, hungry,
I could go to the church,

or if I had the spiritual bankruptcy
I could go to the church.

And so, I would go to the churches
just on occasions,

so if they could help me
to get back on my feet...

- Is that a Baptist church or different...
- The Baptist churches, yes.

And then something unusual
happened.

About the end of my time in the military,
God called me into ministry,

which was foreign for me
because I had the drinking problem

and I didn't know how that worked.

And so, over four nights,
God woke me up in the middle of the night

and pressed upon me ministry,
but I said: No, I'm not gonna do ministry,

because of the life You've given me,
because of the struggles I've had,

because of the brokenness.
I don't want to serve a god

who allows his children
to be hurt like that.

But at the same time, every night
before I would go to bed,

I would say a prayer, a sinner's prayer:
Lord, please forgive me,

save me. If I should die tonight
take me to Heaven,

you know, that kind of thing.

For five years I ran from God
and flunked down to college

and just struggled, until I had
spiritual bankruptcy.

How old were you then?

26 years old.

So finally, at that point,
it was in a Methodist church,

because I was selling windows
and I had a family invite me to their church.

And so I went with the hopes I can sell
them windows and doors.

I was always using people.

But I went to the church
and they weren't there.

So, I went back next week.
They weren't there.

And the third week I went, and by that time
they had me playing in the church orchestra...

Still completely broken,
still my life was just a mess,

but one day, right after Easter,
God spoke to me and said:

I still want you to ministry.

And I said: God, if You can clean up
my mess, if You can clean up my problems,

I will do whatever You ask.

And so, just like that, everything
started changing.

I got full scholarship to study
at college, to be a pastor.

Just all these pieces started
coming together.

Went to McKendree college,
then went to Asbury Seminary,

which was a neutral seminary,
but it was there that I started learning

about the politics, even in
the Methodist Church.

And I'm not suited for politics,
I'm not suited for a structure

that's not established to help me.

Because I knew that I still
had a lot of problems.

I went through six years of counseling
to help me to become a Methodist pastor.

And even when I got ordained
I still didn't feel adequate.

I know now, it's because I didn't have
the Holy Spirit.

I mean, I had Holy Spirit baptism
that saves me,

but not the kind that empowers me
for ministry.

How many people is still out there
today, just here,

who are there, who want to serve,
but they are, actually, fighting in themselves,

because they need the freedom,
they need the Holy Spirit,

they need the full gospel.
So, it's not only his case,

it's not only you. There are so many, many,
many people,

who are, actually, in the same spot
right now.

Yes. Many.

What happened after that?

Well, at my fist church, of course,
I went, I was the pastor in Eastern, Kentucky

and I didn't know what I was doing,
so I was forced to pray a lot.

But I still was doing everything
by my own strength.

And because I was doing by my own
strength, I felt like I had to achieve

a very high level, so that everybody
would like me.

That was very important to me.

And so my church doubled in size
and we started winning awards

in the state of Kentucky for the small
church of the year, growing membership.

You told me a little about the pressure
there...

- Incredible pressure.
...and the competition.

And I think for you who were not in
leadership, who were not in church,

you have no idea of the competition.

Because you started to win awards
for growth in membership,

but that is because it's a competition,

and when you won one time,
it shows that other people were failing,

and not doing as good as you,
and then other people won it,

and you were not doing well.

Can you tell a little about that pressure?

Right. I remember telling you also
that there was a joke among pastors

that who ever has the tallest steeple
has a fewest amount of friends.

Because of that competition.

And if your church is bigger than mine,
than I don't want to hang out with you,

because you are up here,
and I'm down here.

And so that competition fed itself.

And then, after three years,
I was promoted and moved to another church

which also doubled in size,
but then, it was again,

I have to work hard in my own flesh
to make the church look good

and to build it up.

How much was it in size and people?

The first one started about 45
and ended up about 110,

and the second one was about 50,
and ended up 120 something.

How much people, pastor, leader
controlled by numbers coming in?

Every bit of it.
It's all numbers.

- Can you tell a little about it?
- Just like in a corporate world.

How is it with numbers?
How do people look at it?

Did people write it down...

Yes, every year a Methodist pastors have to
submit their paper work to the conference,

and that includes your average attendance,
your average in Sunday school,

how many professions of "faith" you had...

Professions of faith is important,
because that's baptism, but...

Not the baptism that we understand it.
This was baptism of "symbolism".

So, as a symbolic baptism.

Do people look at if there's many
professions of faith, less baptism,

but the church don't grow in numbers?

Yes, and that happens a lot too.

Because they also show the numbers
of declining, how many deaths you had

in the family, in the church, or how many
people moved to another church.

And so, you always look at those numbers,
and then they put it in a big catalog

and every year conference you look
at these catalogs and you start comparing

to what other pastors have done.

But this is just a pressure.
You know, if it's all about numbers,

one thing you do, it makes you do
things you should not do...

- Absolutely.
- ...and don't do things you should do.

For example, if there is a sin in the church,
you overlook it sometimes,

because you don't want to deal with it.
You don't want people to leave the church.

Or, you don't want to preach radical
and clear, because some people get offended.

So, it's so easy to be controlled
by that.

I would say, it's not only
in the Methodist Church where that is.

When I was leading
the church in Denmark,

the first two church plant I was part of,
I was never the main pastor,

I was the second one. Because I was
the second one, I did not feel the pressure,

but when I became the main pastor,
I felt that pressure.

It was all about numbers.

And as you said, the problem is,
suddenly you go from building

the Kingdom of God to build your
kingdom.

And other churches, as you said,
are the competition.

I remember, I had a church one time.
Small church, but I started to hate...

I don't like that word. I started to hate
a little the neighbor church. Why?

Because my members started to listen
to that teaching and they liked

what they were doing,
and they were doing good.

And I was afraid to lose my people,
because then I was a bad pastor,

and it made me do things
I should not do.

Absolutely right.

If you are not in a leadership
you don't know how dangerous

this system is, how it is killing.

Tell me how did you experience
all this pressure, and being in all of that.

What it did to you?

The pressure, professionally, is one thing,
but it also affects you personally.

In my case it affected every aspect
of my life.

The pressure professionally was that
I had to keep performing at a certain

high level, and if I couldn't,
then I had depression.

Or I felt terrible about myself
and I felt like I was inadequate.

And then, at home, you know,
we just had three kids at this time,

and little bitty kids. They were growing,
so there was a lot of attention there,

but yet I'm in the church all the time,
because I had to work more

to make the church do well.

I only stayed at churches
about three years at the time,

because in the Method system
you move a lot.

And it's hard to establish friendships
and also just momentum in your church.

There was a time, after doing
youth ministry in Owensboro,

that my mother-in-law had gotten very sick
with cancer.

My wife was the only child at that time.
We felt the need to move

to Northern Illinois, to be close to her.

And within a few months she had passed.

But my wife didn't deal well with that.

She just couldn't handle that,
because she felt like God owed her something.

And He didn't deliver for her.

But I was so busy with a church, as like,
I don't know how to help you,

go to counseling.
I have to help these people here.

You need to go to counseling,
or whatever it was.

But there was a lot of tension
personally and...

and I was at this church in Illinois
for ten years,

and it was struggling, where they
closed the day care,

people would come and go,
and that would brake my heart.

And then people would rise up and say:
We're not gonna do what you tell us.

We're gonna do this, we're gonna do this.

I crashed.

I lit a bomb. I committed professional
and personal suicide

by having an affair.

Because I knew that was a way out
and I knew that that would stop

all of the nonsense and it would
just put an end to everything

that I was struggling with in my life.

But, I hurt so many people,
just like with normal suicide.

Anybody who commit a suicide,
In a way it's a very selfish act

a lot of times, but it hurts
so many people,

and my three children were
deeply hurt by it.

And I lost a lot of friends,
a lot of colleagues by it.

And I was embarrassed by it.

I thought that I could go out into
the world and just get any job,

because I had a doctorate and one
master degree at that time,

but two later. And I thought,
I can just go work anywhere and make money.

But God still had a calling on my life.

And I couldn't figure that out,
after what I did,

how can God still want me?

And so I went back to school
to get a counseling degree,

thinking I can do counseling
in a way - that would be ministry.

But you know, the professional thing
was, after you worked for so many years

to get ordained, that title of being
a pastor is extremely important.

Extremely important.

And when I lost that title...

I lost my identity.

And so I really struggled with
who am I

and what am I supposed to be about,

and I struggled for five years,

just in deep depression...

I couldn't get my act together.

And something weird happened.

I kept hearing thoughts:
Just kill yourself, just kill yourself,

just take your life, nobody's gonna care,
just take your life...

And I remember laying in bed one night,
saying:

God, please help me to understand
something.

I am not a pastor anymore.
I am no threat to the devil anymore

So, why does he want me dead?

And God spoke: Because he knows
your're still a threat.

And I'm like: God, how can I be a threat
when I'm nobody.

I'm going to school to get a counseling
degree. I'm not a threat.

And God says: But you have a plan.
You have a calling on your life.

Just because you are not in ministry now,
doesn't mean you won't be.

If you look at that, go out and just
commit sexual sin,

because you wanted everything to stop,

you call it suicide...
- Professional suicide.

It shows how far you're out.

You just want to give up,
you want to run away,

and it was a desert period, five years,
a lot of things...

How many pastors, leaders out there, do you
think, are struggling with something similar?

A lot. A lot.

Do you have any numbers?

I don't have any numbers, but I've known
many pastors who have self-destructive...

I know one pastor, in particular.
He went up to the top floor and jumped off.

Because he just couldn't handle any more.

So, it's a real thing. A lot of it
it's a professional system,

you want to produce, but also,
your personal life too.

I want to say to you out there,
people have no idea of all of this.

I heard the number, like 80%, 95%
of pastors are lonely

and fighting with depression.
It's very, very, very high.

And I remember for me... There are two things.
It's the whole system.

There is a system that's deadly.

When you said you had your identity
in being ordained, in being pastor,

that is deadly. You should never ever have
identity in anything else than Jesus Christ.

But I was there, even in a small free church,
it's not only Methodist Church.

When I became pastor in a free church
it just went down like this.

I experienced the pressure,
I experienced the competition,

I experienced you want to perform,
you want to do everything good.

I remember, my wife Lene one time said
to me, like:

When do you time for me?

Because I was running and fixing
everyone's problems.

I said: But I'm the pastor.
And she said: Yeah, but they don't own you.

But I felt like that.
I felt like they own me.

I was there. I should always be there,
I should be there...

But, it's spiritual.
I experienced freedom in it.

God really set me free from that thing.

What we have around us now it's bigger
than what we had at that time,

but my freedom is just different.
I want to talk about that.

So, you went through a hard time
and a lot of things changed in your life.

Can you go forward?
What actually happened 15 months ago?

15 months ago I was pastoring another church,
Christian church

in Northern Illinois.

It's funny when you say: Christian church,
because people come from Europe

they thought: Okay, it's not a Muslim church.
It's a Christian church.

Christian Church is a denomination.

In some ways.
They are autonomous, but yes.

- Is it like the Methodist background?
- Very similar.

It is connected to the Churches of Christ,
the Christian churches and also

Disciples of Christ.

Do they believe in baptism, Holy Spirit
and the foundation?

It's more in line what we believe as TLR.

It's about baptism of repentance.

Which I still didn't have a good grasp
on it, at that time,

but once I came in line with TLR,
or came across with some of the videos,

I started noticing that this was
missing in my life.

Because then a conviction started coming
that I have been doing it incorrectly, for years.

Okay, what have you done incorrectly?

Baptizing people as a symbol.

The definition I was taught is: Baptism
is an outward symbol of an inward grace.

There was no emphasis on repentance,
so a lot of people I baptized

quit going to church and they just
drifted away.

And there was a personal responsibility
on my behalf...

for misleading them.

So, that started just a year and a half ago?

Yes, about 15 months ago.

How did it happen?

This is the best part. You know, every
Saturday night, when I prepare sermons,

I would go online, and I would look
for videos that would encourage me and

motivate me for the next Sunday morning.
Because when you are a pastor

of a dead church, you need outside
stimulus to get your spirit up.

And so, one particular Saturday night,
right before Christmas,

I came across a video. I believed
at that time it was "The Beginning".

Or it might be "The Life".
I don't remember which one.

I watched all of them.

But anyway, it grabbed me because
I had... God had been kind of nudging me

towards the Holy Spirit, with tongues,
and also with casting out demons.

Those were things I had studied
and I was interested in.

And then I saw it... live... on the street...
and it was easy.

And anybody was doing it.

And I thought: This is crazy.

So, the next day after church
I took the video and said to my wife:

Honey, you gotta watch this.
This is good stuff.

And so we started with "The Beginning",
we went into "The Life",

and then David Lou Bega and his wife
just really floored my wife.

She loved it. Cried and cried.

I watched "7 Days Adventure With God"
and I cried when...

I think it was the second movie, actually,
when the homeless man came

and said: I just wanna hug.

That killed me.

But anyway, those were so powerful.

So, while we were watching the movies,
I got on my laptop

and I looked up on the TLR map,
that there was a couple in Cedar Rapids,

an hour and a half away.

So, I texted them and said:
Hey, can you meet with us?

And he said: Friday night.
So we hooked up with them.

Friday night my wife and I
we went to meet them.

He and Jolanda, they baptized
in the Holy Spirit,

It took two or three minutes.

And then, by talking to us,
sharing the gospel with us,

we decided we wanted to get rebaptized,
with the repentance emphasis.

And so we did that.
And it was life changing.

My wife had had some spirits
come out of her.

It startled me.

And I didn't know how to explain it.

So, we got back to the church
and I wanted to keep it quiet

because I didn't want the leadership
to know...

I want to say to people out there.
I think...

If you've been pastor so many years,
as you, to just humble yourself

and actually come to that point:
Hey, I need more.

I need to go to somebody,
and I need them to pray for me.

I need the Holy Spirit,
and I need to be baptized.

I think it's just difficult.
It's almost like...

Jesus said it's not easy for a rich man
to enter into the Kingdom of God,

because he has his riches,
he has so much more.

And what I've seen with pastors,
leaders, you have that identity,

you have that pride, and it's so difficult
to just humble yourself

and come to a point where you say:
I need something more.

I need those people, who are not
ordained, who are not pastors,

who are not leaders, to pray for me.
I need them to lay hands on me,

to receive the Holy Spirit.

And I want to encourage you out there
who are pastors and leaders in church -

don't be too proud to ask for help.
Don't be too proud to go in and say:

Hey, there is something here I need.

And I think that you came to that point.
That was beautiful.

The problem is that feel trapped.

Because we have a healthy salary,
or we might have a parsonage to live in,

or respect in a community.
And then, when you have a family -

you need that salary.

And then they also have retirement plans.

And so, if you feel trapped, you're like...

I can't go after the Holy Spirit
because I have to please my people.

When you went to them first,
did you know what that could mean?

Yes.

- You knew it already.
- Yes.

So, you were willing to pay the price?

I was willing, I was willing to pay the price.
I knew it would not settle well,

but I didn't know to what degree.

So, what happened? So now you had
the biblical baptism, you have the Holy Spirit,

the new birth, you and your wife,
and you just brought it into the church,

everyone clapped their hands,
beautiful, it exploded...

And then I woke up from the dream.

Can you tell about? We want to know
what happened. How did you bring it in

and how did people receive it?

I waited about two weeks and at the end
of the sermon,

I just felt like I had to tell them.

So, I said: Folks, I want to share
a little bit of a testimony with you,

of what I've been through lately.

I said: I have been baptized
in the Holy Spirit, and when it happened

this incredible language came
out of my mouth,

and it has completely transformed me,
and I said,

I have now been praying for some people
and I've seen people healed,

which is blowing my mind,
and I've seen demons cast out.

And I said: If anybody here would like
to know more,

come to my office after my service.

Hallelujah! Come on!

We had about nine people come
after the service.

We prayed for several people.
Three of them were healed of knee problems.

We had a demon come out of two people

and I think we had two people
baptized in the Holy Spirit that day.

But it was two weeks later that I would
meet with the leadership.

And I had to do a lot of research,
I had to do a lot of studying,

I had to get my act together,
and all of the scriptures,

so that when I presented to them -
this is why I did what I did,

this is what's important to me,
this is where I think we need to go.

Did you know that leadership,
when they called you in,

you already knew that they did not like it,
or what?

I knew they probably didn't.
I knew it was scheduled meeting,

so it was anything new.

But I was prepared. And so,
I walked them through the scriptures,

and I just set it there and I said:
So, what do you think?

They were not happy.
They were not happy.

I won't go to a lot of details.
One person was very angry

and accused me of thinking I was better
than everybody in the church.

I was told that I had "several complaints"
in the church.

And when I pressed them: how many,
how many, how many - two.

But the point is, I knew there was
resistance, I knew they were not opened to it,

and so I used a passage out of Acts 5
and I said:

Guys, I just want to think about this.

They were going to kill or imprison
Peter and John after Pentecost,

and I believe it was Gamaliel
who stood up and said:

Look, wait a minute. If this move is of man,
it will fail.

But if this is of God, let none of us
stand in the way.

And so I said: I just want to leave this
with you.

Because you've been praying for revival
for over a hundred years in this church,

and now that it's right at the footsteps,

you need to make this decision very wisely.

And so, over the next several weeks,
there was a division that just kept growing.

We ended up, when I left the church,
half of the church was Spirit filled.

But half of the church was also
very against me.

And so, at that end, I thought it would be
best for the church if I resigned.

But then, I was greeted with:
Thank you.

Thank you for resigning.

If we look at this, there are so many
biblical things we can take out.

Jesus talked about new wine in wineskins.

If you put the new wine into the old
wineskins... it will burst and get spoiled.

Jesus talked: Don't think I came with peace
but with split, division.

From now on there will be a split between
father, mother, son-in-law... and so on.

And this is what you saw.
The Word of God, when it comes in bring life.

Some people want it,
some people reject it.

If you look at the Pharisees, the whole thing
with the Pharisees in the Bible,

we think of the Pharisees,
when we read the Bible,

that that is the one with horns at forehead
and are evil,

but they were good Pharisees,
they were believing Pharisees.

It was just a group of people,
the Sadducees and the Pharisees,

there were good and bad people,
people who loved God, sincere.

Everyone, I would say, will be sincere.
There were not Pharisees who were not sincere.

Everyone would love God. But some of them
who loved God were still blind.

And here they were studying Scripture
daily, daily, daily, daily...

Waiting for messiah. When Messiah stood
in front of them - let's kill Him.

He raised up a man who has been lame
for many years.

Let's really kill Him.

Raised up Lazarus.
Let's kill Him and Lazarus.

When you read the gospels
you think

it's not one point in your life,
as Pharisees,

where you maybe should stop up
and think...

Maybe He is the one who says He is.

Lazarus has been dead for four days.
Why kill Lazarus to hit the story,

to get it away. Why not listen?

And this is the same you experienced.

This is what we, sadly, experience today.

When life is coming into an old structure
like this...

It will bring division.

Were you a bad person
since you brought division?

Yes. I was told that.

You were told that.

And this is what I and many others
have been told.

But if we just take the Bible,
division is very often a fruit of life.

Very much so.

When Jesus came,
there was always division.

Every place Jesus came
there was strife, there was division.

Every place Jesus came
there were people who were for Him

and many who were against Him.

And you saw it.

Was it worth it all or should you have just
compromised,

or what would you do different?

Compromise would be the only other option.

But it just wasn't me.

I can't do that.

How was it to experience the life in,
half of those who received the Holy Spirit?

How was that? Did you see the fruit?

Absolutely amazing.

Every Saturday night we would have
secret prayer meetings,

when we would pray for each other.
Many people were delivered.

Many were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Many were healed.

We saw incredible miracles happen
in that time, but it was bad

because we couldn't share
with very many people.

So, you were underground church.

Physically yes.
And I felt guilty for that.

But I knew these people needed that.

I had several people over 70 years old,
saying they wanted to pray in tongues.

How is it, when you think back,
your 28 years as a Methodist pastor before,

how much different is to ministry
in the power of the Holy Spirit and new life?

It's easy.

That's the crazy thing about it.

Because all those years
I felt trapped,

and I was doing everything by my own flesh,
by my own strength,

and struggling, and then
taking my problems home,

and now with the Holy Spirit,
things are so much quicker.

I would do counseling sessions
and I wouldn't have to prepare,

because God would just give me
some wisdom,

that I didn't even know where it came from.

And they would say: Oh, thank you.
That's so helpful.

And then, with preparing sermons,
I would just say:

You know, Lord, I'm gonna go to sleep,

and I hope, when I get up in the morning,
You will give me a sermon for tomorrow.

And He would do that.

It was just crazy how easy it was.

But also, how amazing it was, because
I had a friend at the church,

and we would go out and do
treasure hunts.

But we prayed for guidance.
And we'd go out and look for people

to match the clues, and then we would
prayed for them,

and they would be healed.

That was so easy.

I want to say, there is a reason Jesus said
to His disciples:

Wait in Jerusalem.

Don't go out and do ministry.
Don't go out and do a lot of things.

Wait for what Father has promised.
Wait for the Holy Spirit.

We need a Helper,
and He can do the sermons for us.

He is an amazing Helper.

How was it to experience the church

went against you and people went
against you?

How hard was that for you
and your wife?

I'm thin skinned.
So, that was extremely hard on me.

It was harder on my wife,
because she wanted to protect me.

And I had to remind her:
Honey, I'm still the pastor,

so we have to behave ourselves,
you know.

But there were some very offensive
things that were said to me.

God taught me a lot, but there were three
different times I had a person in my office

screaming at me, casting at me,
and God would say:

Listen to the language they're using.
That's not me.

Listen to this they said,
you pay attention to this,

but ignore this.
And He would teach me this.

And it was so painful, because some of these
people I have been doing ministry for 4 years,

and I have poured myself into them
for four years.

And now they were turning on me
and accusing me of being divisive

and for being arrogant, and...
just grandstanding, and misleading people.

It was extremely difficult.

You couldn't sit down with the Bible
and explain, it's biblical...?

No. One of the most common
arguments I would find:

It is impossible for a Christian
to have a demon.

And I would tell people,
I've prayed for 40, 50, 60 people

and everyone of them was Christian.

They said: That's not possible.

And they would say: It is impossible
for any human to heal.

And I'm like: I didn't heal. God heals,
but He uses us as tools to heal.

And they couldn't get passed that.

It was just very disappointing because
these were people they claimed

they know the Bibles, the scriptures,
they breathe scriptures,

but they were messing the message.

When you then got pushed out
and told to leave almost,

how was it to lose your identity again?

That was probably the most difficult.
My wife would tell you that

that's been the most difficult time
of her life,

because she would have to watch me,

because she got transferred with her company,
we've moved to Dallas

and she had had no problems.
They paid her moving expenses,

we've made a profit off of our house,
which was good,

but I could not find a job.

The only thing I could find was
a part time job as a chaplain at a hospital

which is 5 to 10 hours a week...
maybe. But no guarantees.

And so for seven months
I would just sit in the living room and cry.

And I would read the scriptures
and I would pray, and I would say:

God, why can't You open a door for me?
Why isn't anything happening?

And then the devil would come in
and say:

Oh, it's because you had that affair
ten years ago, or because you did this,

or because you're selfish.
God is done with you.

He doesn't want anything to do with you.

It was just so difficult and I would
get up at three in the morning and pray.

And I would just cry.
Because I had no life.

I had nothing. Because that title of pastor
was so important to me.

And I felt if I'm not a pastor,
with all of my education,

if I'm not a pastor - I'm nobody.

And the devil would say:
You're right. You are nobody.

You are worthless. You are worthless.
You are worthless.

And so I would tell my wife...
One time I actually said to her:

I wonder sometimes what my life would be
like if I wasn't baptized in the Holy Spirit.

And she says: Do you regret it?

And I waited a minuted and I said:
No, I don't. I don't regret it.

I'm glad I did it, but it has radically
changed my life,

and I don't know who I am now.

But during that time God was peeling back
the layers and He was correcting me

and pruning me, because He wanted to
make it very clear that I know

that I'm child of His,

and that my identity is in Christ,
not in a title.

I don't have to be, none of us have to be
pastors or missionaries

or have any title of any kind
to do the Lord's work.

He puts the Spirit in us and says:
Just go and whoever I send your way

just love on him, if nothing else.

But that was a very painful thing
for me to learn.

I did a 21 day fast, where He began
to peel back those layers.

First thing, I'm addicted to food.

And if you look at me, I've lost a lot of
weight, but I'm still addicted to food.

I'm addicted to my wife.
I'm addicted to myself.

And He would just peel back all of this
stuff and at the end I said:

God, what's left?

And He said: The pieces that I want.

That fast was so important.

Right after that we went to
our kickstart in Austin.

Page and I went and that was just
incredible.

Now you are here at the school,
but you came to the kickstart

and it's almost at the kickstart
you decided to join the school.

- Yes.
- And the school started a week after.

So, it was really ...fought through a lot.

You went to a kickstart...
What happened at the kickstart?

What was special for you?

You know, for me, the best part
was I met friends.

People who agreed with me and people
who shared the same love for ministry

that I did, and the love for the church,
even though the church was, you know,

kind of, losing its way, but we've met
friends. We also saw many people,

regular people, cast out demons,
heal the sick, pray for others,

pray in tongues, and it was like
we finally found our home.

And I hadn't had that for a very long time,
because when you are a pastor,

you can't be normal.
You have to be on a pedestal,

you have to be careful what you say,
because people will look down on you.

So, for the first time in a long time,
I've been able to say:

I belong here, cause these are people
like me.

Beautiful. I have the same.
Most of us, I worked with here,

have the same. There is a longing
inside of us that's from God,

who just say: We want more.
We want to have this real life.

And that longing is doing that
we are pursuing more,

and then we experience this life,
and we see it's real

and we want it, and we cannot compromise,

even if we sometimes don't like the price
we need to pay,

but we cannot compromise,
and then we experience that life.

And when we experience that life
than we experience that loneliness

because we find out that people
around us, we thought...

who just clap their hands and love it,
like we love it...

They don't.
And then we feel alone,

but then we find out that there is a body,
there is a body of believers,

there are other people out there
who understand us and want the same.

Even pastors, who've been pushed out
of their churches.

Let's say now, when we will end up,
because there is so much to say here,

let's talk to pastors out there.
What would you say,

let's say that there is a pastor
who is seeing this,

who is in church, who is struggling.
They know that there's more,

but you want to keep it all together,
you have your family,

providing for the family,
you have a good salary.

I heard that there are some good salaries
in some of those churches.

- Yes, sir.
- You have a pension plan.

And many of those pastors are actually
being controlled.

I know in your church, you have two
givers who pay almost everything in church,

and there are people in church,
in leadership, who are controlling.

So, even you are a pastor, it often
doesn't mean you are free.

- No.
- What will you say to those pastors

and leaders out there?

There are few things. The first thing is...

Fear does not come from God.

So, if you are staying trapped
where you are,

if you are staying where you are
because of any kind of fear,

it's not from God.
It comes straight from the devil.

The devil wants to keep you there,
he doesn't want you to grow,

he doesn't want you to learn,
he doesn't want you to mature.

He certainly doesn't want you
to be empowered with the Holy Spirit.

Other than that, you have to also
understand

that denominations and seminaries
train disciples to be just like them.

So, everything that you know about
ministry,

that you've learned at seminary,

you are a cookie-cutter.

They have created hundreds of people
just like you,

to believe just like you.

And that squelches our ability to read the Bible
and to interpret the way we want to,

where the way God is trying to teach us
in the Scriptures.

Because we're worried what others
are going to think.

We're worried what leaders
are going to think,

we're worried what denominations
are going to think,

and so that squelches the freedom
we have in Christ.

And that's not the way to do ministry.
It's just not the way to do ministry.

Especially when you consider that
in this day and age,

because of the coronavirus, a lot of churches
now are going in the houses.

This is where the world is headed.

It's not headed towards more denominational
churches, bigger churches.

It's headed smaller, into the house churches.

And that's what the world is hungry for.

I did research on this when I moved to Dallas.

There are 30 million Christians
in this country

who refuse to go to mainline
denominational churches.

Why is that?

Because they don't want to pay
for expensive buildings,

they don't want to pay
exorbitant salaries for the staff people.

They don't want to keep paying
for the bills of previous generations.

They want to worship the Lord,
they want to serve God,

and they want to get their hands dirty,

and when we are sitting on the throne
in the church,

and we are dictating who is going
to serve and who is going to do this,

we shut out a lot of those people
that are hungry for ministry.

So, I'm just saying, for the love of God,
for the love of the people

that God has put on this earth,
that want to serve,

we owe it to them,
to give them the best of ourselves,

and the power of the Holy Spirit
needs to be unleashed upon this world

because the people are hungry
for it.

And I know a lot of you pastors,
I know you are hurting,

I know you are trapped.
I know you're like:

I have too much money.
I can't give up the salary.

I can't provide for my family.

I'm telling you:
Fear does not come from God.

You've got to humble yourself
while you can.

And don't lose your soul over this.

I want to encourage you to do whatever it
takes to be in the right way of the Father.

And I'm telling, He will provide for you.
He promises He will provide.

Jehovah-Jireh. His promises are all
through Scripture.

If you will humble yourself
and seek His face, I promise you

He's gonna hear your cries for help
and He's gonna pick you up.

He's gonna see you through this.

I don't know how it's gonna happen
for me, but I'm walking by faith.

Some days are hard,
some days are great.

But I'm walking by faith.
He's gonna get me through this.

And I'm sure He's gonna do the same
for you.

Beautiful. I want to say to you out there...

Many pastors I know, they do it...
Of course there are few cases

who do it for money
and do it for other things,

but most people do it because
they really love God and love people...

- Absolutely.
- They love God and they want to serve people.

And I want to say, like Deron,
there is a way to do it

where there's freedom.
There is a way.

Jesus said: Take my yoke on you,
my burden. It is easiest life.

Why do we have 80-90% of pastors
and leaders who are struggling?

It is not an easy yoke they are carrying.

Why? Because God has a different way.

We need you out there.
We need you in the harvest.

We need you to disciple people.
We need you to train people.

We need you who have experience,
who work with people.

What I see God is doing right now,
He is shaking the church.

There is a reformation that is
coming to the church.

It's happening, where He's reforming
the church back to what we saw in the beginning,

the life we read about in the Book of Acts.

And there is leadership,
there are pastors, there are things,

but it's not a position, the same way.
It's not an ordination, the same way.

But it's people who are loving God,
who are serving people,

led by the Holy Spirit,
and seeing fruit.

Deron's story is how he was in that system.

Now he's stepping out,
even more and more,

and seeing more fruit
and more freedom.

I want to say to you out there -
there is fruit...

There is freedom.

There is something for you out there,

and especially what you've said,
with the religious glasses,

I used the term "religious glasses",

I often said: Tell me where you've studied
and I can tell you what you believe.

And it's what you said, that come in
and then you go to a box,

and then you come up on the other side.

And that often hinders us
in just reading the Word

and believing the Word.

I would say, for me, why do I
believe in baptism with full immersion,

in repentance, baptism on your own faith,

and that baptism is not a symbol -
because I've read it.

I read it and I could believe what
I've read.

But I know other people from
the Lutheran Church in Denmark,

where I grew up, they read it,
but they cannot believe it.

Why they cannot?

Because it's very difficult to get a man
to believe something

if his salary is depending on him,
not believing it.

It's very difficult to get a man
to believe something

if his network, his friends,
his contacts, all of this,

is depending on him not believing it.

I had a Lutheran pastor in Denmark,
a friend.

One day we talked, and we talked,
and we talked about baptism,

and it just hit me: If I change and
believe in baby baptism today,

I can do it. Why? Because I'm free.

But if he will change and believe
in baptism with immersion,

he will lose his salary right away,
he will lose his contacts,

he will lose his network,
he will lose his speaking engagements,

invitations. And that's just too much cost.
And many people are stuck.

So, I want to encourage you out there -
Don't be stuck.

Be free. Pursue God.
Check what the Bible is saying.

What about those out there
who don't know how it is to be a pastor,

people who maybe also speak always
negative, against the church,

and don't know how it is.
What would you say to those out there?

It's a very rewarding job. Really is
very rewarding, most days.

There are always sometimes when
you're going to be attacked

for crazy reasons. I've been attacked
for not filling up the toilet paper

in women's bathroom before.
- Was that you?

- Was that you? I heard those rumors.
- It was my fault.

Yes, I've been attacked because
I didn't visit somebody in the hospital,

even though they didn't tell anybody
they were in the hospital,

because they wanted an opportunity
to complain about the pastor

for not coming to visit.
Crazy stuff, like this.

And very stressful meetings when
you get in there and people call you names

or they will cast out at you. Call you liar
and say that you are not really called by God.

And some personal attacks.

One time I had some ladies from the church
tell me that I needed to tell my wife

to quit losing weight
because she looked bad.

Who says stuff like that?

That's just crazy.

But, it's very difficult some days.
You will carry a lot of depression

because you have no network.

You think that when clergy come together
that you're gonna establish friendships,

but because of the competition,
you're gonna be lone rangers,

you're gonna be on your own
for a lot of the time.

And you can't be friends with
people in the church,

because you can't show them
your true side, your vulnerabilities.

And so, you are all alone.

So, I would say to people out there,
try to show a little mercy sometimes

to those people out there, even if
there are things you don't agree with.

We need to have a little understanding
that they are struggling.

There is a system here that is killing
people.

There is a system that is slowly taking
the life out of people

and we need to help them,
we need to show mercy,

we need to help them and let them know
that you understand.

And that is what I think it's important.

I want to end up saying...
I don't know if you have more to say?

- Anything on your heart?
- I can't think of anything.

I would say, please, share this video.
Let people understand

what is happening. Share this video,
and let other pastors,

oh, I really hope and believe that you
pastors and leaders out there,

you who are standing in leadership,
you will see this,

and this video can be a call to you
to open up,

maybe do like he did, go in www.TLRmap.com
and find somebody near you and say:

Hey, I really need somebody to talk to.
I need somebody who can pray for me.

I need the Holy Spirit.
I need the life in my church.

Bring the life in the church.
Yeah, but what if it ends up dividing in two?

Look at all the good fruit there was.
Yes, it ended up dividing,

but he did not bring death to the church.
The church was already dead.

He brought life to a half of it.

And this is what it is, you can keep
doing what you are doing,

and in many ways, if you know what is
truth and you don't do it,

you are deceiving people.
Don't do that on purpose.

If you see there is more, you are obligated
to share that more to those people.

And then, share life to them.

We want to help. I know there are
people who want to help

and maybe come to your church,
and take some of the church people out

and train them and disciple them.

We have been working with many churches
and we've seen different results.

We have seen churches explode,
good fruit, and then, get divided.

I know two, three pastors now
who all got fired,

but I also know leadership, eldership
who got fired.

And I also see... I would say,
it's very, very difficult... No.

I will say like that: It is impossible
to bring life to a dead church

without somebody's leaving.
It is impossible.

But it's still worth every soul
that's getting saved...

- Absolutely right.
- ...every person that's been transformed.

And we are there to help you.
So, contact us,

see some of the videos we have
in this series.

I've given out the book called
"The Call of Jesus"

where I talk about the church.
Also, I have the book "The Last Reformation",

about the reformation of the church,
where I talk a little about my journey

out of the system.

I want to just add to this...

I remember one time in church,
I talked with you about it,

where I was telling a testimony
how I have been struggling with porn

and how Jesus set me free.

The pastor, the leader in that church
I was speaking in,

took me beside and he rebuked me
big time.

He was so angry. You are a leader,
you are a pastor,

you are standing in front of all those
people, saying how you have been

struggling with this.
How dare you do something like that?

And I was like: But, but, but
I want to bring hope

and that there's freedom and what
Jesus has done in my life.

You are a pastor. You should not have
those falls. You should not show weakness.

People will not respect you.
And that is just a lie.

That is just a lie that people are not allowed
to show any real life.

But we need to show real life,
because that brings hope to people.

And like I said the other day, the scriptures
I use is 2 Corinthians 4,

the passage about jars of clay.

That the jar of clay is not worth anything.
It's the treasure inside the jar

that gives its value.

And a lot of those jars, over the time,
they crack, and the paint peels off,

and they are ugly to look at, but...

when God puts the light of Christ
inside of us,

now the cracks make sense, because
now the light shines through those cracks.

If there was no cracks in your jar,
then you would have no service to God.

You have to have that brokenness,
so He can shine through that.

- Nice.
- And it's just amazing stuff.

I want to say in the end,
I really, really hope and we pray

that this video will encourage you
out there,

especially you pastors and leaders,
be as bold as Deron.

Don't hold back.
You need the baptism.

You need the Holy Spirit.
You need the freedom.

God is calling you.
We are here to help you.

Maybe you can start with seeing our movies,
like he did,

"7 Days Adventure With God",
"The Last Reformation: The Life" and

"The Beginning". Come and join
the kickstart, if you can.

Come and experience that freedom,
experience that family

and be part of new things
God is doing,

how Jesus is building His church.
We need you all out there.

God bless you! Bye-bye!