Oltre Solaris: 100 anni di Stanislaw Lem

Here we are. Good morning to all the

listeners and spectators

of the Fantafestival on our

social channels.

I am very proud to introduce our guest

Monika Wozniak,

Associate Professor at La Sapienza University

Well, now maybe Monika will tell us

what her role as Associate Professor

expert in literature and Polish language,

involves.

So, like many teachers

of so-called "minor languages",

we do a bit of everything, really,

so we teach everything,

we teach language and literature,

and then we try above all

to respond to the needs of the students,

and therefore teach the things

that students like best,

like audiovisual translation

or literary translation, and also

the authors that students like best,

like Wisława Szymborska

but also Stanislaw Lem.

Perfect. We're obviously here to talk

about Stanislaw Lem, and some

of the films presented in the

"Red Stars" retrospective

of the 41st Fantafestival.

I obviously want to remember and further

thank the Polish Cultural Institute

which is always very present, in all our

initiatives, since we have taken over

the reins of the Festival three years ago.

An interest that is mutually shared,

precisely, because obviously the Institute

exists specifically to promote the Polish

culture in Italy, but for us it is

interesting to go and discover

a series of lesser-known works

of Polish cinema which in our opinion

is one of the most important cinemas,

not only of Europe but of the world.

Specifically, this year we are talking

about Stanislaw Lem,

who is actually a writer, as many of you know,

because this year marks

the centenary of his birth.

Stanislaw Lem is obviously well known

all around the the world,

his works have been translated

in about 40 countries, if I'm not mistaken.

Is that correct, Monika?

Yes, it's true. He has had many translations

and is certainly one of the few writers

of so-called science fiction,

who has also been successful in the West.

Because science fiction has always

been considered as an Anglo-Saxon,

American-owned, or Anglo-American genre,

so it is very difficult to penetrate

this universe so conquered in some way

by the American point of view,

for writers who come from other countries,

especially the more exotic ones like Poland.

For example, I know that Lem actually

had a low esteem of his Anglo-Saxon

colleagues, that is, for example,

he did not consider American

fantastic literature very interesting

from the humanistic point of view,

as he found it too commercial

and more attentive to financial gains,

than not actually to investigate

the human soul.

I know that for example one of his writers,

I found a very nice essay

translated into English,

about him writing about Philip Dick,

"Philip Dick among the charlatans" even,

and obviously his kind of science fiction

is a very different science fiction

than the Anglo-Saxon one, as you said.

What are the points of greatest difference

between the two ways of conceiving

and using fantastic fiction?

There are many points, and certainly

we don't have time to examine them all,

but I think we must first of all

consider the fact that science fiction

in some way, even if it speaks

of the imaginary future, is always immersed

in the socio-political context in which is born.

So it is obvious that American

science fiction arises

from the American context,

from the problems of American society

and also from the vision of the future

which is linked precisely to the American

situation and mentality.

While the science fiction of Eastern Europe,

obviously the Polish one but also

the Russian, or the Czech one,

and so on, was born, especially

in the period of its greatest flourishing,

we remember for Lem that they are thr decades

ranging from the 50s to the 70s,

the most of his literary production

is however linked to the situation

and the political and social context

of Eastern Europe.

Therefore it is also very conditioned

by the need to deal with the totalitarian

regime that existed then in Poland,

that is, to talk about it in an almost

a secret key that readers would still

be able to decipher.

However it was once said,

now I don't remember by whom,

that American or Anglo-Saxon science fiction

talks about problems, while Eastern European

science fiction talks about dilemmas,

and perhaps this is a point

that we could underline.

That of Lem is psychological

and philosophical science fiction

more than anything else,

far from the space-opera, the one

that develops and that we link

to <i>Star Trek<i> and many other films.

If we want to talk about space-opera,

for example in a cinematic key

we are talking about two films,

one unofficially taken from Lem's

<i>The Magellanic Cloud<i>,

but clearly inspired by it, even if

there is no mention of it in the credits,

it is <i>Ikarie XB1<i>

that has become over the years

a classic of world cinema science fiction,

made in the early 60s,

which even won the Golden Asteroid

at the Trieste Festival,

but that has never been distributed

in Italy.

In this sense, the space-opera

of <i>Ikarie XB1<i>

is certainly completely different

from the whole period of the golden age

of American science fiction of the 1950s,

as the journey that is made

with the spaceship facing this

intergalactic crossing is actually

also a very deep journey into oneself,

something that American cinema,

at least up to that point, hadn't done;

and in this sense <i>Ikarie XB1<i>

is a precursor film of all that will be

the next cinematic science fiction.

Yes, actually <i>Ikarie XB1<i>

is the second film adaptation

made from the works of Lem.

The first is <i>The silent star<i>,

of Polish and East German production,

from 1959.

Perhaps the thing that is worth pointing out

is that these two films are based

on Lem's first novels, that is,

those novels that date back

to the first half of the 50s,

and therefore belong to Lem's phase

of social realism.

Novels that Lem himself hated,

at a certain moment he did not

even allow them to be reprinted,

especially <i>The Magellanic Cloud<i>

which was published in 1953,

and there you could still see the influences

of this socio-political context

I was talking about before.

However, I must personally say,

despite seeing these political elements,

I consider Lem's novel an interesting novel

that I read with great pleasure precisely

because the theme of interstellar travel

in this case is dealt with in a different way,

where what matters is not the encounter

of dangers at every step, if we can

again make an allusion to <i>Star Trek<i>,

but the change and the inner,

psychological problem faced by the crew

locked in a cramped space for many years.

Obviously in the film this space becomes

even narrower, even if the journey lasts less,

I believe it is two years in the film

while in the book it is ten years

that they have to travel to get

to another solar system.

In fact, what is very interesting

is that previously in the American space-opera,

that of the golden age I mentioned earlier,

what is never addressed are

the interpersonal relationships

between the crew members,

like loves that can blossom,

hatred or competitions that can arise.

among the 40 crew members,

because practically the spaceship becomes

a microcosm of the society

that they have left on earth.

So, this in my opinion,

I don't know if you agree,

is something that had never

been done before in the previous

science fiction.

Yes, I agree. We also see

something like this in the previous film,

<i>The Silent Star<i>,

where there is always a crew,

in that case it is a crew that goes

to investigate a hostile civilisation

that had developed on Venus.

But even there personal relationships,

for example the problem of having

to leave one of the crew members behind,

knowing that he will die,

but there is no other choice,

and also the psychological repercussions

that these decision have

on the other members, is right at the center

of Lem's thinking.

Then if we go ahead and see <i>Solaris<i>,

that is a film completely based on

what goes on in the minds and psyches

of the characters.

That's what counts and that is

where Lem digs in.

<i>Der Schweigende Stern<i> is the German title,

the film was a co-production between DEFA

and Poland ...

... sorry ...

Well, we're talking about science fiction,

so it's appropriate that you

change your position in space ...

Unfortunately, there is someone

who tried to call me, even though

I blocked all calls to do this interview ...

directed by Kurt Maetzig, and it was

indeed a co-production between DEFA,

which is an East German production company,

which very often made works

in co-production both with Poland

and also with Russia, very often also

of the fantastic and horror genre.

And this, for example, which among

other things would be the first film,

as you rightly said, in Italy has been

released several times under the title

<i>Il Pianeta Morto<i>,

o <i>Soyuz-111 - Terrore su Venere<i>.

For example, it circulated a lot in local

broadcasters at the end of the 70s.

If I'm not mistaken, it is based

on a novel by Lem called <i>The Astronauts<i> ...

Yes, in fact, it is Lem's first published

novel, except for one published

immediately after the war

which was called "The Man from Mars",

but that only came out in instalments

and has never been published,

until today because now that

everything gets re-published

this novel is also out, but <i>The Astronauts<i>

was Lem's official debut.

A curiosity, Lem himself also participated

to the script of this film, but then

he got angry and withdrew from

this collaboration, but on the other hand

for him it was an opportunity,

for the first time, to be paid

in German marks , but then

it turned out that they could not

transfer this money to Poland,

so he had to go to Berlin and make

some purchases to spend all the money,

in fact there are some very funny

letters from Lem where he explains

all the curious things he bought .

But he had a very bad opinion

of the film, but generally this was the case

for all the films based on his works,

as he was extremely critical ...

... except a film by Waida,

which unfortunately I have not seen

and which I would like you to tell us about,

in that case I read that

he had particularly appreciated it...

Yes, in fact it is an exception,

it is the film <i>Przekładaniec<i> (Layer cake)

which is based on the short story

<i>Czy pan istnieje, Mr. Johns?<i>

(Does Mr. Johns really exist?)

I found 5 different adaptations of this story,

television adaptations though;

in addition to the Polish one

there was a Russian, a Czech

and a German adaptation, and even

before Waida's film, there was one

that was lost, perhaps the first ever

adaptation of Lem's prose, which was

a so-called Polish television theatre show,

in 1957, so it was the very first.

For <i>Przekładaniec<i> he participated

to the script, written by four hands,

and that can now be found

on Youtube, nowadays you can find

everything on Youtube, but is in Polish,

and it is a comedy in appearance,

because it is about an air plane pilot

who then has a series of accidents

and has therefore to undergo

a series of organ transplants,

and in the end, however, the question arises,

because always in Lem the underlying problem

is the psychological one,

is he always the same person

after he, in the sense of his body,

has nothing left, because

everything has been transplanted.

It is a very topical issue today,

today that transplants are becoming

more and more widespread,

Lem in the early 1960s was already

asking himself this problem.

So, on the face of it, a comedy

that, however, raises some very

serious questions. Perhaps this is

also why it has been very successful

with many different adaptations.

Here at the Fantafestival we will

show <i>Ikarie XB1<i> by Jindrich Polàk,

a Czechoslovakian director, tomorrow evening.

I take this opportunity to thank also

the Czech Cultural Institute

and the state archive of the

Czechoslovakian Film Archive.

We will show another science fiction

film from Polàk tonight,

that has nothing to do with Lem,

however I invite everyone to come

tomorrow night to see <i>Ikarie XB1<i>

on the big screen, because by the way

it is also a very spectacular film.

Of other films based on Lem's works,

then we will better enter

into the real themes of the author,

I remember Marek Piestrak's

<i>Inquest of Pilot Pirx<i>

which is another film that won

the Golden Asteroid at the Trieste Festival

in 1979, which however had little

circulation outside Eastern Europe, even though

this was also decidedly remarkable.

What you said about Lem's work,

which at one point even rejects

the initial works, is as if his work

is divided into two parts

and the second part comes when

there is a certain liberalization and,

in the Soviet Union, even the end

of Stalinism and there is

a greater openness to certain

issues as well.

No, perhaps it would be more correct

to speak of a continuous evolution

of Lem's work, because the two novels

we have talked about, <i>The Astronauts<i>

and <i>The Magellanic Cloud<i>,

belong to that Stalinist period.

However, in the late 1950s and early 1960s

Lem wrote most of his fictional works,

and also most of what can be considered

true science fiction works.

Because, if we look closely

very soon Lem moves from science fiction

a la <i>Hard Boiled<i>

what would also be <i>The Magellanic Cloud<i>

and also <i>The Astronauts<i>,

towards a more satirical composition,

publishing for example the <i>Mortal Engines<i>

and then <i>The star diaries<i>,

which is actually a series of satirical stories,

as they criticise the totalitarian regime

in an aesopic key.

Several of these short texts have given

inspiration not so much to feature films,

because they would be difficult to make,

but to different animations.

There are several animated short films,

which you can also find on Youtube,

and this is a good thing because

even the things that were once

difficult to find ...

But I invite the viewers to come

on Sunday afternoon, because we will

present 5 of them on the big screen,

so I invite all the viewers who are listening

to take advantage of an almost unique

opportunity to see them on the big screen

because, as Monica rightly said,

even though now everything is more or less

available ...

... but not always in the right language.

Lem himself identified much more

with this type of narrative writing,

while he treated science fiction

more like an opportunity for asking existential

and philosophical questions.

Then he moved more and more,

in the 70s and 80s towards non-fiction.

The actual non-fiction and also

the philosophical speculation on

contemporary society ...

... even non-fiction, and even the theoretical

reflection on what science fiction is as a genre,

in fact you remembered his clashes

with American writers.

Like that argument with Dick,

who as we know had his psychological

problems ... sure ...

In reality, problems came from the fact

that Lem wanted to promote Dick in Poland,

in fact in the 70s Lem had become

an ambassador of American science fiction

translations, which, however, did not go

very well with censorship and various

protests from the authorities.

In fact, Dick had to be translated

into Polish but in the end nothing

was done, through no fault of Lem

but Dick was convinced that Lem's hand

was involved,

so a kind of paranoia developed

and Lem, who didn't take criticism lightly

took serious offence for this and

a terrible quarrel broke out.

But in fact, as you rightly remembered,

it was also due to Dick's problems who,

already in the 70s, entered a whirlwind

of personal paranoia, also due to drug

abuse, which gradually led the author

to detach himself a bit from reality

so this was certainly one of the problems.

If we wanted to identify which,

in your opinion, are the main themes

of Lem's work, what would you tell us.

Again, Lem first of all wrote a lot,

I'm sorry I didn't take a picture

of the bookstore I went to in Krakow

which had a whole section dedicated

to Lem's volumes.

There are dozens of books,

including novels, short stories and essays.

So his curiosity was insatiable.

As for literature and the literary part,

I believe that one of the main issues,

and even more interesting for me personally,

as I deal with their translation,

is the problem of communication,

or the impossibility of communication.

As we all know very well,

his best known work, <i>Solaris<i>,

is based on this principle light years

away from the concept of the universal

translator that we find in almost all American

science fiction films, where

the problem of communicating with aliens

is the easiest part.

That is, either the aliens come to kill us,

and then there is no need to communicate

because it is enough to kill the aliens

to save us, or the aliens come

as friends and then we just have to

pull out this universal translator

and we can talk about everything.

While Lem had a very acute awareness

of this communication problem which,

obviously, finds its extreme expression

in the novel <i>Solaris<i>.

In fact it is curious to see that "Solaris"

has attracted the attention of the directors,

the two most famous film adaptations

of Lem are precisely two versions of <i>Solaris<i>,

by Tarkovskij and Soderbergh,

but it is not by chance that we see

the difference between the Russian

and American cinematography,

on which you could certainly say more than me,

but Lem's merits are also a reflection

of what Western and Eastern European

cinema is, and also his approach

to science fiction cinema.

Sure. I personally consider

Soderbergh's work really pointless,

if I can use this term ...

It is very "American", but it is interesting

in my opinion, because it gives us

an idea of ​​how difficult it is

for the American point of view,

the one with the vision

of American science fiction,

to try to assimilate a vision

as different as that of Lem that in the end,

in Soderbergh's film is reduced

to a love story.

I would say that the problem

of communication, which you are

talking about, on the other hand

in a more recent film that is

influenced by these issues, and which

in my opinion explores them in a more

interesting way is Denis Villeneuve's "Arrival",

which is all about the character

of the translator who has to interpret

these mysterious alien creatures and has to

understand their language and transfer it ...

Well, I would say that this is a film,

a screenplay, a story born of Lem's work,

and that in any case has had an important

inspiration that comes from Lem's work.

Yes, I was very pleased to see this film,

which is also a kind of rehabilitation

of the translator. I dealt with the

problem of translation in literary

cinematic science fiction, and I wrote

various texts on this, and the thing that

has always struck me is that science fiction

does not include the figure of the translator,

the translator is destined to die out,

both in films and in science fiction

novels generally Lem's central problem

of communication somehow disappears,

the problem of first contact is generally

solved by a captain, or by a science officer,

as in Star Trek, or even by the doctor,

however, the translator as a specific figure

no longer exists, and perhaps behind this

there is something psychological,

perhaps the rejection of the problem

of translation, or the need to believe

that one day we will finally overcome

the Babel syndrome and not only reunite

on Earth but also in space

in a common language.

Talking about the problem of translation,

Lem's writing has a very particular style

and therefore adaptation into foreign

languages ​​is particularly difficult.

Yes, let's say that Lem's translations

in Italian, but not only in Italian,

have suffered a lot from the prejudice

linked to the science fiction genre.

Lately some interesting books have been

published precisely on the translations

of Urania for example, or on the figure

of Riccardo Valla, where it is shown that

science fiction was considered something

so far from true literature that translations

could be made from every possible language.

The first version of “Solaris”

arrived in Italy translated from the English

translation, which in turn was made

from the German translation.

For this, three chapters of the original

have been lost and there have been many

other errors in understanding the text.

Therefore it is remarkable to note how,

despite truly horrendous translations,

Lem has achieved the success

he actually has in Italy, that is,

it is to his merit that even from a translation

done very badly by two other previous

translations in other languages,

however he managed to ignite

the imagination of his readers.

This practice unfortunately lasted a long time,

because I have seen translations

of the beginning of the new millennium,

now I do not want to indicate

specific titles and names,

which I understood were made from English,

from the excellent translations into English

by Michael Candell, however ...

Unfortunately this is a problem

that in Italy, in the adaptation

of novels from both Eastern Europe

and the East, very often for economic

reasons it is preferred to translate

from English to Italian, it happens

very often also with Japanese literature,

and unfortunately a lot of the original

message is lost.

Yes, certainly it is a phenomenon that is

not limited to Lem, but I must say

that in recent years, in October

we will have a special event dedicated to Lem

at the Polish Institute and

at La Sapienza, we will hold

a small conference and also a round table

on translation, so I can say that lately,

luckily, new translations have also

come out, for example for "Solaris"

now there is a real translation done

from Polish, but just between last year

and this year new translations

have been made from Polish

done better, although I must say that

translating Lem from Polish is very difficult

because his style is very rich, and this

is not very noticeable in the first novels

we talked about, such as <i>The Astronauts<i> or

<i>The Magellanic Cloud<i>,

but above all in the stories where he uses

a lot of historical stylization, for example,

he makes fun of it, and this is

something almost untranslatable,

even if we wanted to, as we have seen

with some translations ...

I have also noticed, for example,

that Lem is a great lover of the use

of neologisms, which are coined on purpose

in his novels, and I imagine that

the adaptation of these neologisms

also presents difficulties of a certain type.

Yes, let's say that neologisms are

the characteristic of all science fiction,

because science fiction needs neologisms

to create new exotic worlds.

However, the problem with Lem's neologisms

is that they are semi-speaking,

semi-significant, therefore they hide

cultural or historical allusions.

Very often they also have a satirical meaning,

which not all translators are aware of.

If I may give just one example,

in the <i>The Mortal Engines<i> there is a

war cry with which the robot knights

go to the attack, and they shout <i>Avruc!<i>,

and I don't know if I can say this online ...

you can say anything you want ...

if anything then cut,

<i>Avruc<i> read backwards becomes <i>Curva<i>,

which correspond to <i>F**K<i>, more or less,

but the translators, except one , in all

other languages ​​they have not noticed it,

so they considered this word as a neologism,

or as a strange word that is good for robots

on a distant planet, and then obviously

the original meaning has been lost.

there are situations like this at every step,

at every sentence, so translating Lem

is really a particularly arduous

translation challenge.

Very well. I hope that we too will participate

in this conference you were talking about,

which I personally find very interesting,

the last thing I wanted to discuss with you ...

Is it in Polish?

No, it is organized by the Polish Institute

but it is in Italian and only a part will be

in Polish with simultaneous translation

into Italian.

I hope so. I would very much like to learn

the Polish language, since I am a lover

of Polish cinema, but it is a bit difficult.

I wanted to address Lem's relationship

with technology, which seems like a pretty

interesting topic, because I've read

several things about it, and also about

his late positions on the development

of the internet, for example.

Yes, with regards to Lem's relationship

with technology, and especially with

the development of new technological tools,

it is quite paradoxical, because

on the one hand in his first novels

there are many predictions that

have come true, that is, if today

we read certain novels, such as

<i>Return from the Stars<i>,

we note that he is clearly talking about

e-books, or payment systems similar to

today's mobile phones, so there are really

predictions and even reflections on

how these tools can change people's lives,

which are amazing.

On the other hand, however, I think

that over the years Lem had also become

more and more surly, more and more skeptical,

arriving at a kind of rejection

of the modern age.

Above all of the internet and the net

he saw more the dangers than the advantages

more the negative sides than

the positive ones, especially his latest

essays are very acidic, very negative.

I'm not very fond of the latest Lem,

to be honest.

However, there are certainly some

interesting things, I invite our listeners

to dig online because there are several

English translations. A sentence

that I have read and that has particularly

struck me is <i>I do not see what the future

<i>of the Internet is if not that<i>

<i>of annoying one's neighbors.<i>

A very sarcastic stance.

It is mass culture, Lem still lived

in that world in which the elites had

the main voice, and let's remember

that being Polish he comes from

the romantic tradition of poets, writers,

those who had the decisive voice

to influence the mind and the imaginary

of the masses. And he did not like

that the masses from below could

influence culture, he was very sceptical

of mass culture above all, he perceived it

as a dangerous thing that leads to

the general stupidity of civilisation.

Very well. I thank you very much

for this nice chat, I hope that those

who did not know Lem's work are now at least

curious to deepen their knowledge

of one of the greatest writers,

let's say of science fiction but

in reality this is an understatement,

one of the greatest writers of

the last century, where as Monika rightly said,

science fiction becomes more of an excuse

to do other things. Thank you very much,

Once again I invite our viewers to come

on Sunday to see the animated shorts

taken from Lem's works, of which two,

if I'm not mistaken, were written specifically

by Lem for the cinematographic work,

and are not taken from short stories,

and therefore see you all in the theatre

and all the other online meetings

of the Fantafestival.

Tomorrow we will talk about Swedish

exploitation with Rickard Gramfors at 5pm.

Thank you all.