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Rachel Maddow in Conversation

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    [Applause]
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    [Laughter]
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    [Rachel Maddow]
    Wow thank you all so much for coming
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    [Applause]
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    Wow
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    Did he say 4,000 people are here?
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    [Laughs] This is crazy
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    [from audience] We love you Rachel
    [RM ]I love you too, thank you.
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    Alright I'm sorry about
    the whole crutches thing
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    I know it's melodramatic, right?
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    It's a very boring story
    or I would tell it
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    Thank you all so much for being here.
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    This is an overwhelming number of humans
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    I am just incredibly honored
    that you're all here
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    I do a show on TV and I know that
    there are people watching
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    but I can't see them
    and so this is coming face to face
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    with something that I really try
    never to think about,
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    which is that a lot of people
    know what I do
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    including the screw-ups every day.
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    So as a way to try to minimize the emotion
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    I am actually going to change glasses,
    so that with these glasses on
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    I will not be able to see any of you
    which will make this easier for me.
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    All right,okay, so I did not set out
    to write a book
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    about the oil and gas industry
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    And I thought: for sure, if I did,
    no one would want to read it.
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    and then this weird thing happened,
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    right around the time the book
    was ready to come out,
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    which is that the president
    started getting impeached
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    and [cheers and applause]
    I didn't do it but I'll take the applause
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    and the the thing
    that really surprised me
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    is that this book is coming out
    and it's kind of about the thing
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    for which the president
    is being impeached .
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    and so I had planned
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    when I was going to go around and talk
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    about the book and do events like this
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    that I would read like the funny section
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    of the book there's a really there's a
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    section I really like that I think is
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    kind of funny that's about walruses and
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    I was like I go to Chicago room that's
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    gonna slay they're gonna love the
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    walruses thing because the president is
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    now being impeached though for something
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    that has to do with the thesis of this
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    book I kind of feel like I should read
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    from that part of the book just in part
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    because I'm really looking forward to
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    this conversation with Allison and some
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    of your guys's questions and I feel like
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    maybe this would be kind of a good
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    predicate because I have a feeling there
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    might be some appetite to talk about
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    that and from the applause a second ago
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    when I said the word impeachment I think
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    I'm right so all right so I'll read a
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    little bit and then I'll just say a
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    little thing and then Allison will come
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    out so here we go the reason I
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    specifically kind of picked out this
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    part tonight is because of those guys
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    who got arrested a couple days ago Lev
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    and Igor
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    they one of the things that was
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    interesting about that so they got
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    arrested and charged with trying to
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    funnel illegal campaign donations
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    including illegal foreign origin Russian
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    campaign donations to Republican
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    politicians both to start a weed
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    business but also to try to get the US
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    ambassador to Ukraine removed as part of
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    a scheme they were working on with the
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    president's lawyer Rudy Giuliani
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    and we know for mr. Giuliani zone
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    account that the reason they wanted that
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    ambassador out in Ukraine was because
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    she was in the way of their scheme to
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    get Ukraine to provide the president
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    with dirt he could use against the
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    Democrats in the 2020 election which is
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    what he's now being impeached for so it
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    all kind of ties but I thought it was it
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    was interesting and like weird given the
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    book that when those guys got arrested
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    remember they got arrested at Dulles
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    Airport and we think they moved up the
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    indictment so that they could hurry up
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    the arrests because they had one-way
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    tickets out of the country and so they
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    went and they swooped in and they got
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    them at Dulles and they brought them to
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    the nearest federal courthouse the
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    relevant federal courthouse if you're
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    ever arrested at Dulles Airport trying
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    to flee the country as news you can use
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    is the Eastern District of Virginia and
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    so they've got brought in for their
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    initial court hearing at the Eastern
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    District of Virginia and the weirdest
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    thing happened
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    they got Paul manna Ford's lawyers what
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    were they doing there what's your
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    connection to all this did you guys know
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    each other before so that was weird
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    mr. Giuliani also says that one of the
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    people who he's been working on this
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    scheme with the one that the president
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    is going to get impeached for the person
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    who was giving him strategic advice on
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    what the president might be able to
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    solicit from Ukraine to help him in his
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    next election one of the people he has
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    been consulting with on this is Paul
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    Manafort who is the president's campaign
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    chairman but currently is a federal
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    inmate and apparently mr. Giuliani has
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    been working with him so there's the
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    guys who are in jail now who have just
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    been arrested and indicted there's the
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    other guy who's serving a federal prison
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    sentence those are those are the first
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    three guys Giuliani is working with on
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    this scheme and then there's another guy
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    because when they got arrested at Dulles
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    they had these one-way tickets and they
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    were to Frankfurt but they didn't say
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    that they were planning on staying in
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    Frankfurt they were going to transit
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    through there and mr. Giuliani again
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    always helpful told a reporter for the
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    Atlantic that where they were going was
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    Vienna Austria and he was also on his
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    way to Vienna Austria but they weren't
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    going together it was just coincidence
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    and we now know that the reason they
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    were going to Vienna Austria is because
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    they were at least either Lev or Igor I
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    can't tell them apart yet by next week I
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    will have it one of them was working for
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    a guy whose name is Dmitri firtash who's
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    in the book and what has emerged
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    actually what he merged last night which
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    is why I'm going to read this today is
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    Reuters how to report that Dmitri
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    firtash who is not in prison but is
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    under arrest and out on bail and
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    fighting extradition to the United
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    States where US prosecutors say that
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    he's an upper echelon associate of
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    Russian organized crime and he's wanted
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    on a multibillion-dollar fraud scheme
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    Dmitri firtash is the one who has
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    apparently according to Reuters been
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    financing Lev and Igor in their latest
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    exploits it may it also is starting to
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    appear like maybe Dmitri firtash is the
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    one who was paying Rudi
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    for this work through love and Igor and
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    like I said us prosecutors believe he's
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    an upper echelon associate of Russian
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    organized crime so I feel like it's all
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    coming together and the president is
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    gonna get impeached for this stuff but
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    all of the people who are apparently
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    were involved in in all of the people
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    who were apparently involved in hooking
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    them up with this are either in jail in
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    prison or fighting extradition plus Rudy
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    and so I feel like I have to talk about
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    this stuff now quick because well once
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    they're all in jail it's gonna be harder
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    to get more of the story out so anyway
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    that's the back that's the background
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    the immediate news background which I
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    think makes this relevant all right
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    the biggest threat Putin had to keep it
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    BAE was the prospect of strong rich
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    stable western-oriented democracies in
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    Russia's near abroad that sort of thing
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    could not only challenge or constrain
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    Russia's regional power it could
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    conceivably the horror inspire the
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    Russian people themselves leading them
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    to demand a democratic say in their own
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    government as well the solution was
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    simple use Russian natural gas and oil
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    not only to make money for the Russian
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    state but also to keep neighboring
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    countries corrupt and dependent it
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    solved so many problems it reduced
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    expectations for democratic governance
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    and the rule of law in those countries
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    it created a corruptly empowered
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    political class invested in preserving
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    the Russia dependent system that
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    enriched both its practitioners and
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    oftentimes also their families it also
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    created comfortable space for organized
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    crime to flourish the Russian government
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    under Vladimir Putin's control has
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    steadily become more integrated with all
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    kinds of transnational organized crime
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    in the former Soviet sphere and not just
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    because Putin has tended to attract the
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    kinds of broken nose Tufts who would
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    otherwise be called henchmen if Putin
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    hadn't made them so rich
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    the beauty of putin's ever deepening
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    kinship with the mob was that it gave
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    him a whole other
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    of levers with which to settle problems
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    and to make problematic people go away
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    whenever it might be unseemly to wield
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    the overt powers of the state and so
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    Putin's team in the Kremlin was
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    delighted to utilize a man like Dimitri
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    firtash Dimitri for attaches special
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    skills could be used to shape Ukraine
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    more to the Kremlin's liking to turn it
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    from its increasingly worrying
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    flirtation with the West with the work
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    with the European Union with Oh God
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    maybe even NATO so the Kremlin cut
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    firtash a sweetheart deal in Ukraine
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    virata's new company was given the
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    exclusive right to buy gas from Russia
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    to sell to Ukraine at a very large
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    profit about eight hundred million
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    dollars in clear profit in the year 2007
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    alone now Ukraine could just as easily
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    have bought the gas with no middleman
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    and no markup but Putin wanted both the
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    middleman and the markup it cost Gazprom
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    the Russian natural gas company a pretty
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    penny basically straight out of Russian
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    government coffers but it was worth it
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    firtash as well as some of Putin's other
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    Ukrainian oligarchs would have plenty of
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    cash to spread around to shape Ukraine
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    in ways that Putin would appreciate some
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    of that cash did go back to Moscow as
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    tribute but even more of it went to prop
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    up something called the Party of Regions
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    which meant a whole bunch of that money
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    passed through or ended up in the
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    offshore bank accounts of the mercenary
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    American political operative named Paul
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    Manafort Paul Manafort helped the Moscow
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    friendly party of regions when a solid
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    plurality in the 2006 parliamentary
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    elections in Ukraine and then he spent
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    the next few years dinging Ukraine's
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    strongest opposition leaders including
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    those from the orange party Prime
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    Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was a prime
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    target
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    Timoshenko was a particular threat to
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    Moscow's influence in Ukraine she had
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    made herself the front-runner in the
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    2010 presidential election by seizing on
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    that sweetheart gas deal that Dmitri
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    firtash got from the Kremlin she
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    promised to end that deal she made a
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    good case why on earth should
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    firtash his company should anybody's
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    company be allowed to siphon off 800
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    million dollars in a single year by
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    doing nothing by just playing this
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    middleman role that nobody needed nobody
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    asked for
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    well manna fort and his team went right
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    at prime minister Tymoshenko with full
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    force
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    they helped drive down her approval
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    ratings to 20% six months before that
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    2010 presidential election even when she
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    renegotiated the russia-ukraine natural
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    gas deal in 2009 she actually got rid of
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    that deal she cut firtash out she got
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    rid of that middleman even her
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    renegotiation of that deal wasn't enough
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    to sway a majority of voters to her mana
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    forts guy Yanukovych squeezed by her and
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    into the presidency in 2010 mana fort
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    received much credit for the ANA Kovich
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    victory and he got a rich new contract
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    as the new Ukrainian president's
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    off-site political adviser and he got
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    right to work one of Yanukovych his
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    first acts as Ukraine's new president
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    was to SiC a rabid state prosecutor on
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    Yulia Tymoshenko lock her up
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    Yanukovych's prosecutor charged
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    Timoshenko with the crime of abusing her
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    official powers by illegally arranging
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    the new firtash free gas deal between
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    Russia and Ukraine the accused her of
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    corruption for having gotten rid of that
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    corrupt deal Timoshenko had a lot of
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    sympathy in the United States and Europe
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    so mana fork got right to work on a
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    multi-part expensive public relations
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    campaign to destroy her reputation in
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    Ukraine and also in the United States
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    but they brought those corruption
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    charges against her they prosecuted her
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    they convicted her and they locked her
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    up and with Timoshenko stashed in prison
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    trashed by the American PR firms and
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    American law firms that mana fort paid
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    for Russia's men in Ukraine
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    mob-connected Dmitry firtash got back
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    into the gas deal which was better than
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    ever his company's operating profit for
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    the years 2012 and 2013 added up to
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    nearly four billion dollars
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    with that kind of money available for
  • 14:22 - 14:24
    corrupting any actual governance in the
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    interests of the people of Ukraine
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    Putin's natural gas supply there hovered
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    over the heads of the Ukrainian people
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    like a sword Putin could tell things
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    were going well when Yanukovych were an
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    egg Don his campaign promised to move
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    Ukraine toward greater cooperation with
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    possibly even membership in the European
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    Union
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    Putin knew that wouldn't that couldn't
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    ever happen the problem was the
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    Ukrainian people appeared to really like
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    the idea even when Putin promised 15
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    billion dollars worth of new aid to
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    Ukraine the will of the Ukrainian people
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    was clear they wanted the EU no matter
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    Putin's largesse and the orange side
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    revolted again what started on November
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    21st 2013 as a small demonstration in
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    the main square in Kiev and the Madonn
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    grew in just a few days to another
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    100,000 person protests the
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    demonstrators took over the square and
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    refused to leave a violent crackdown by
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    police in the last days of November
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    didn't quell the enthusiasm in the face
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    of Yanukovych's armed security forces
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    determined protesters strapped on pots
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    and pans as makeshift armored and they
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    took to the streets and the crowds kept
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    on coming and growing this lasted
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    through November through December putin
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    thought the cold Kiev January would
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    break the crowd if the security forces
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    could not he was wrong in February as
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    the Sochi Olympics kicked off they were
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    still there by the tens of thousands
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    wearing their makeshift 21st century
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    defensive kitchen where huddled for
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    warmth around trash can fires the
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    protest had morphed from a demonstration
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    about the EU question into a
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    demonstration about democracy itself the
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    will of the governed Ukrainians were
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    calling it the revolution of dignity the
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    demonstrators in Kiev were gaining
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    courage in numbers and on February 18
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    2014 they armed themselves with
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    slingshots and braved a gauntlet of
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    Yanukovych's armed security forces and
  • 16:29 - 16:31
    they marched on the Ukrainian Parliament
  • 16:31 - 16:34
    when Yanukovych is security forces
  • 16:34 - 16:36
    started killing protesters that
  • 16:36 - 16:38
    afternoon the crowds retreated to their
  • 16:38 - 16:40
    barricades in the Madonn and remained
  • 16:40 - 16:41
    there through a terrifying night
  • 16:41 - 16:45
    protected by a ring of fire Yanukovych's
  • 16:45 - 16:47
    security forces broke out machine guns
  • 16:47 - 16:50
    they scrambled rooftop snipers the next
  • 16:50 - 16:53
    day and the civilian casualty list just
  • 16:53 - 16:55
    kept growing and growing
  • 16:55 - 16:58
    one defiant protesters standing behind a
  • 16:58 - 16:59
    makeshift shield wearing a plastic
  • 16:59 - 17:03
    helmet and a surgical mask yelled we are
  • 17:03 - 17:06
    not afraid to die for freedom freedom is
  • 17:06 - 17:09
    for us freedom is ours we will win and
  • 17:09 - 17:11
    Ukraine will be part of Europe and
  • 17:11 - 17:13
    Ukraine will be part of the free world
  • 17:13 - 17:15
    and we'll never be slaves we will be
  • 17:15 - 17:17
    free
  • 17:17 - 17:19
    Putin watched it all with a growing
  • 17:19 - 17:21
    sense of dread and a growing sense of
  • 17:21 - 17:24
    anger here at his doorstep was the
  • 17:24 - 17:26
    Western conspiracy America was the cause
  • 17:26 - 17:30
    of all of this mess he was sure the last
  • 17:30 - 17:33
    little bit I'm gonna read on the eve of
  • 17:33 - 17:36
    the final day of the Sochi Olympics
  • 17:36 - 17:39
    Yanukovych not lost his nerve he called
  • 17:39 - 17:41
    off his security forces he turned tail
  • 17:41 - 17:44
    and ran he gave over Kiev and the
  • 17:44 - 17:45
    federal government to the orange
  • 17:45 - 17:47
    revolutionaries the Ukrainian Parliament
  • 17:47 - 17:50
    met in an emergency session legislators
  • 17:50 - 17:52
    voted Yanukovych out of office in
  • 17:52 - 17:55
    absentia they ordered the immediate
  • 17:55 - 17:58
    release of Yulia Tymoshenko and she was
  • 17:58 - 18:02
    freed and they voted to refer Yanukovych
  • 18:02 - 18:03
    to the International Criminal Court to
  • 18:03 - 18:06
    answer for crimes against humanity
  • 18:06 - 18:09
    Yanukovych resurfaced a few days later
  • 18:09 - 18:12
    in a Party of Regions stronghold in the
  • 18:12 - 18:14
    Russia friendly eastern part of the
  • 18:14 - 18:16
    country but he ran into protests even
  • 18:16 - 18:18
    there thousands of his countrymen faced
  • 18:18 - 18:20
    him down right there on his home streets
  • 18:20 - 18:23
    chanting Ukraine is not Russia
  • 18:23 - 18:25
    Ukraine is not Russia Ukraine is not
  • 18:25 - 18:31
    Russia Yanukovych fled to Moscow Putin
  • 18:31 - 18:33
    was done trying to make nice he'd had it
  • 18:33 - 18:35
    with the United States he was sure it
  • 18:35 - 18:37
    was the United States meddling on his
  • 18:37 - 18:41
    turf vice president Joseph R Biden had
  • 18:41 - 18:43
    been in and out of Kiev for years
  • 18:43 - 18:45
    insisting that the Obama administration
  • 18:45 - 18:48
    would protect Ukraine from Russia
  • 18:48 - 18:51
    Biden said we do not recognize and I
  • 18:51 - 18:54
    want to reiterate it we do not recognize
  • 18:54 - 18:58
    any sphere of influence and he followed
  • 18:58 - 19:00
    that up with what sounded like an insult
  • 19:00 - 19:03
    the Russians he said have a shrinking
  • 19:03 - 19:05
    population base they have a withering
  • 19:05 - 19:08
    economy they have a banking sector and
  • 19:08 - 19:09
    structure that's not likely to be able
  • 19:09 - 19:12
    to withstand the next 15 years they are
  • 19:12 - 19:13
    in a situation where the world is
  • 19:13 - 19:15
    changing before them and they are
  • 19:15 - 19:17
    clinging to something in the past that
  • 19:17 - 19:20
    is not sustainable
  • 19:20 - 19:27
    Putin sort of took it personally so the
  • 19:27 - 19:29
    good news is I scheduled a book tour and
  • 19:29 - 19:30
    the publication of the book for the time
  • 19:30 - 19:37
    when nothing is going on and I'm looking
  • 19:37 - 19:38
    forward to talking a little bit tonight
  • 19:38 - 19:40
    about how I do think that the oil and
  • 19:40 - 19:42
    gas industry and its influence
  • 19:42 - 19:44
    particularly how it works in the part of
  • 19:44 - 19:45
    the world that is now an area of such
  • 19:45 - 19:47
    focus for us I do think that links to
  • 19:47 - 19:49
    the current impeachment crisis and I'm
  • 19:49 - 19:50
    looking forward to talking about that
  • 19:50 - 19:53
    but in terms of where this came from
  • 19:53 - 19:54
    like I said at the top I did not set out
  • 19:54 - 19:56
    to write a book about this industry I
  • 19:56 - 19:58
    didn't start off knowing anything about
  • 19:58 - 20:00
    this industry and people who know a lot
  • 20:00 - 20:01
    about the industry probably think I
  • 20:01 - 20:05
    still don't know anything but I I had
  • 20:05 - 20:07
    two things that I was really stuck on
  • 20:07 - 20:11
    and they both led me to this and one was
  • 20:11 - 20:15
    this thing that I feel like we probably
  • 20:15 - 20:18
    didn't know any of us in our lifetimes
  • 20:18 - 20:19
    is going to become the fight of our
  • 20:19 - 20:23
    lifetimes which is the fight between the
  • 20:23 - 20:26
    rule of law between democratic rule of
  • 20:26 - 20:30
    law liberal democracy and
  • 20:30 - 20:35
    authoritarianism and to be facing
  • 20:35 - 20:38
    structural and serious and potentially
  • 20:38 - 20:39
    existential threats to our own democracy
  • 20:39 - 20:42
    at home is sort of shocking enough I
  • 20:42 - 20:45
    think for us as Americans but to see
  • 20:45 - 20:49
    clearly that this is happening to us at
  • 20:49 - 20:50
    a time when democracy is in decline
  • 20:50 - 20:52
    around the world and authoritarianism is
  • 20:52 - 20:55
    on the rise around the world I think
  • 20:55 - 20:58
    should be centering for us it should
  • 20:58 - 21:01
    make us realize that however America
  • 21:01 - 21:04
    exceptionalism may function in our lives
  • 21:04 - 21:06
    and in our foreign policy there are
  • 21:06 - 21:09
    times in life and there are times in the
  • 21:09 - 21:12
    evolution of Nations when bold strong
  • 21:12 - 21:14
    patriotic citizens can learn a lot from
  • 21:14 - 21:15
    people in other countries who have gone
  • 21:15 - 21:17
    through this too and I think we have a
  • 21:17 - 21:19
    lot of fellowship around the world right
  • 21:19 - 21:20
    now with a lot of people who are trying
  • 21:20 - 21:22
    to figure out how to do this right and
  • 21:22 - 21:26
    in thinking about trying to contribute
  • 21:26 - 21:28
    something meaningful e to this
  • 21:28 - 21:30
    discussion something meaningful to this
  • 21:30 - 21:31
    discussion about authoritarianism versus
  • 21:31 - 21:34
    the rule of law I felt like I'd heard a
  • 21:34 - 21:37
    lot of generic statements about
  • 21:37 - 21:38
    democracy being good and
  • 21:38 - 21:41
    authoritarianism being bad and generic
  • 21:41 - 21:43
    statements about needing to fight for it
  • 21:43 - 21:44
    and I felt like I wanted to get more
  • 21:44 - 21:48
    specific and I think part of trying to
  • 21:48 - 21:50
    shore up something that's at risk is
  • 21:50 - 21:54
    figuring out what's hurting it figuring
  • 21:54 - 21:57
    out what is within our culture within
  • 21:57 - 22:01
    our economy within our political sphere
  • 22:01 - 22:04
    that is sapping the strength of
  • 22:04 - 22:06
    democracy that's making it feel like a
  • 22:06 - 22:08
    sham to so many people that's making
  • 22:08 - 22:10
    strongman politics seem more attractive
  • 22:10 - 22:13
    and I think you need to talk about big
  • 22:13 - 22:15
    business when you talk about that I
  • 22:15 - 22:19
    think the other thing that led me to
  • 22:19 - 22:21
    this topic is something that you're
  • 22:21 - 22:23
    probably less surprised by if you've
  • 22:23 - 22:25
    ever seen the show which is that I'm
  • 22:25 - 22:28
    kind of obsessed with Russia which I
  • 22:28 - 22:37
    make no apologies for and but in all of
  • 22:37 - 22:38
    the coverage that I've done and all the
  • 22:38 - 22:40
    coverage that everybody in the media has
  • 22:40 - 22:41
    done about what happened in 2016 in
  • 22:41 - 22:43
    terms of our election I was really stuck
  • 22:43 - 22:45
    trying to figure out the motive force
  • 22:45 - 22:50
    for why why Russia did what it did in
  • 22:50 - 22:52
    part because what they did was weird
  • 22:52 - 22:54
    right there's like a guy who's connected
  • 22:54 - 22:56
    to the Kremlin who runs like a social
  • 22:56 - 22:59
    media factory that sounds like it's no
  • 22:59 - 23:01
    fun and they're making they're creating
  • 23:01 - 23:04
    fake American avatars and pretending to
  • 23:04 - 23:06
    be Facebook groups that don't exist and
  • 23:06 - 23:07
    then tricking Americans into going to
  • 23:07 - 23:10
    demonstrations and also they're stealing
  • 23:10 - 23:12
    Democratic Party risotto recipes and
  • 23:12 - 23:14
    publishing them
  • 23:14 - 23:16
    the name gusoff er 2.0 like what is this
  • 23:16 - 23:19
    why is this happening and is why is it
  • 23:19 - 23:20
    happening in this way these are odd
  • 23:20 - 23:24
    tactics but also what's the risk and we
  • 23:24 - 23:26
    risk and reward balance for Russia and
  • 23:26 - 23:29
    this I mean as best as we can tell
  • 23:29 - 23:31
    Russia seems to have thought that
  • 23:31 - 23:33
    Hillary Clinton was gonna win too I mean
  • 23:33 - 23:34
    they were doing their best to make sure
  • 23:34 - 23:35
    that wasn't gonna happen but I think
  • 23:35 - 23:38
    they still thought she was gonna win and
  • 23:38 - 23:40
    if she had won
  • 23:40 - 23:42
    I mean Secretary Clinton was already a
  • 23:42 - 23:44
    hawk on Russia imagine if she'd come
  • 23:44 - 23:47
    into the presidency with Russia having
  • 23:47 - 23:50
    just taken this swing at her in our
  • 23:50 - 23:53
    election to try to hurt her as president
  • 23:53 - 23:56
    and to try to install her opponent had
  • 23:56 - 23:58
    she become president they had to have
  • 23:58 - 24:00
    known that things were probably going to
  • 24:00 - 24:03
    go pear-shaped really fast but yet it
  • 24:03 - 24:06
    was still worth it for them to try very
  • 24:06 - 24:09
    very very very high-risk something that
  • 24:09 - 24:12
    almost smacks of desperation
  • 24:12 - 24:16
    well what I arrived at pretty quickly is
  • 24:16 - 24:18
    that I think it's hard to understand
  • 24:18 - 24:19
    Russia's own motivation in the world
  • 24:19 - 24:21
    without understanding that their economy
  • 24:21 - 24:25
    really sucks Russia is the biggest
  • 24:25 - 24:27
    landmass of any country on earth they've
  • 24:27 - 24:28
    got a hundred and fifty million people
  • 24:28 - 24:30
    which is really big I mean Germany's
  • 24:30 - 24:33
    eighty-five million people the UK 70
  • 24:33 - 24:34
    million people Italy's 60 million people
  • 24:34 - 24:36
    South Korea 50 million people brush is a
  • 24:36 - 24:38
    hundred and fifty million people they've
  • 24:38 - 24:40
    got an economy smaller than Italy's
  • 24:40 - 24:43
    smaller than South Korea's triple the
  • 24:43 - 24:45
    population and the same and a smaller
  • 24:45 - 24:50
    economy and that itself is something
  • 24:50 - 24:53
    that Russian politicians are the answer
  • 24:53 - 24:56
    for but it gets you to sort of the next
  • 24:56 - 24:58
    question well why is their economy so
  • 24:58 - 25:01
    bad especially when they float on a sea
  • 25:01 - 25:05
    of oil and gas generally speaking it
  • 25:05 - 25:07
    turns out that oil and gas is a terrible
  • 25:07 - 25:09
    thing on which to build your economy and
  • 25:09 - 25:11
    that's part of what went wrong in Russia
  • 25:11 - 25:13
    that's part of a bad gamble that
  • 25:13 - 25:15
    Vladimir Putin made very early on in his
  • 25:15 - 25:17
    presidency the other thing though that I
  • 25:17 - 25:20
    think is important is that oil and gas
  • 25:20 - 25:22
    not only isn't a good thing to build
  • 25:22 - 25:25
    your economy on the oil and gas industry
  • 25:25 - 25:27
    when it's big enough it kind of makes it
  • 25:27 - 25:30
    political weather one thing they're
  • 25:30 - 25:32
    actually really for all the things
  • 25:32 - 25:34
    they're not good at like they are for
  • 25:34 - 25:35
    example not good at cleaning up after
  • 25:35 - 25:39
    themselves really like paper towels is
  • 25:39 - 25:41
    still like the apex of what they have to
  • 25:41 - 25:43
    offer in terms of oil spills I mean
  • 25:43 - 25:45
    they're fancy very expensive paper
  • 25:45 - 25:47
    towels but it's paper towels that's what
  • 25:47 - 25:49
    they use for all the things they are not
  • 25:49 - 25:50
    that good at they're not good at
  • 25:50 - 25:52
    cleaning up after themselves they're not
  • 25:52 - 25:54
    good at sailing to Alaska they're not
  • 25:54 - 25:55
    good at all sorts of stuff you think
  • 25:55 - 25:57
    they'd be good at but one thing they're
  • 25:57 - 25:59
    really good at is getting governments of
  • 25:59 - 26:01
    all shapes and sizes to serve them to
  • 26:01 - 26:03
    serve their interests as an industry in
  • 26:03 - 26:04
    a way that tends to Hubble the ability
  • 26:04 - 26:06
    of that government to do a good job
  • 26:06 - 26:07
    serving any other responsible purpose
  • 26:07 - 26:10
    and that dynamic to me ended up being
  • 26:10 - 26:13
    fascinated fascinating setting aside
  • 26:13 - 26:16
    whatever might be bad for your country
  • 26:16 - 26:18
    in terms of having oil and gas
  • 26:18 - 26:20
    production there what we see over and
  • 26:20 - 26:21
    over and over again is that where oil
  • 26:21 - 26:24
    revenues flow government tends to suffer
  • 26:24 - 26:26
    and that's true even when it's tons of
  • 26:26 - 26:30
    oil revenues the founding energy
  • 26:30 - 26:34
    minister of Saudi Arabia says and I
  • 26:34 - 26:36
    quote all in all I wish we'd discovered
  • 26:36 - 26:41
    water the founder of OPEC says as far as
  • 26:41 - 26:44
    he can tell oil is quote the excrement
  • 26:44 - 26:49
    of the devil the founder of OPEC not
  • 26:49 - 26:52
    only says that oil is poop but oil is
  • 26:52 - 26:54
    the devil's poop it's like there's
  • 26:54 - 26:57
    definitely a book there right I don't I
  • 26:57 - 26:58
    don't know what else is gonna be in the
  • 26:58 - 27:02
    book but that is in the book and you
  • 27:02 - 27:05
    know oil companies are full of regular
  • 27:05 - 27:07
    people doing regular jobs both myself
  • 27:07 - 27:10
    and my partner Susan we both have family
  • 27:10 - 27:11
    members close family members have worked
  • 27:11 - 27:12
    in the oil industry it's nothing
  • 27:12 - 27:13
    personal
  • 27:13 - 27:15
    whatsoever but this is an industry that
  • 27:15 - 27:19
    is sort of nuking the planet 76 percent
  • 27:19 - 27:21
    of carbon emissions in the United States
  • 27:21 - 27:22
    are from burning oil or burning natural
  • 27:22 - 27:24
    gas it's basically we're the biggest
  • 27:24 - 27:26
    economy on earth you're talking about
  • 27:26 - 27:27
    more than three-quarters of our
  • 27:27 - 27:29
    emissions that's the big enchilada
  • 27:29 - 27:30
    that's it
  • 27:30 - 27:34
    oil and gas does also prop up terrible
  • 27:34 - 27:36
    governments around the world and they
  • 27:36 - 27:38
    weaken democratic accountable governance
  • 27:38 - 27:39
    everywhere
  • 27:39 - 27:41
    they operate I think on Russia
  • 27:41 - 27:43
    specifically it is also worth
  • 27:43 - 27:45
    understanding how much of a lifeline the
  • 27:45 - 27:46
    big majors of the oil industry and
  • 27:46 - 27:49
    ExxonMobil in particular how much of a
  • 27:49 - 27:51
    lifeline they have been for what has
  • 27:51 - 27:54
    morphed into basically malignant
  • 27:54 - 27:56
    kleptocratic dictatorship that has tried
  • 27:56 - 27:58
    to reorder the world and undo all
  • 27:58 - 28:01
    Western alliances and smear itself all
  • 28:01 - 28:02
    over US and all over every other Western
  • 28:02 - 28:05
    democracy they can get their mitts on
  • 28:05 - 28:08
    and so that's I think where we get to a
  • 28:08 - 28:09
    little bit of this issue of that this
  • 28:09 - 28:11
    conflict we've got between rising
  • 28:11 - 28:15
    authoritarianism and the rule of law but
  • 28:15 - 28:19
    I also just want to say just a couple of
  • 28:19 - 28:22
    things in closing I am really hopeful
  • 28:22 - 28:25
    about the ability to do something about
  • 28:25 - 28:26
    this I wouldn't have written the book of
  • 28:26 - 28:28
    I didn't think there was if it was sort
  • 28:28 - 28:31
    of a can-do thing and part of what I
  • 28:31 - 28:33
    think is can do about it is that I think
  • 28:33 - 28:35
    it's understandable I don't think this
  • 28:35 - 28:38
    is something that is 3d chess don't I
  • 28:38 - 28:39
    don't think it's a conspiracy theory I
  • 28:39 - 28:41
    don't think it's something that is too
  • 28:41 - 28:44
    big to fathom and I think the solutions
  • 28:44 - 28:46
    about how to deal with that how to shore
  • 28:46 - 28:49
    up democracy by reining in and
  • 28:49 - 28:51
    containing some of the forces that
  • 28:51 - 28:54
    corrode our democracy it's doable stuff
  • 28:54 - 28:58
    and the sort of one of the stories that
  • 28:58 - 28:59
    I tell in the book the sort of heroic
  • 28:59 - 29:02
    story in the book that's based in the
  • 29:02 - 29:05
    United States is about schoolteachers in
  • 29:05 - 29:08
    the great state of Oklahoma I did a book
  • 29:08 - 29:10
    tour event earlier this week in Tulsa
  • 29:10 - 29:13
    was freaking fantastic 3,000 people
  • 29:13 - 29:14
    coming out to see Rachel Maddow talk
  • 29:14 - 29:16
    about the oil and gas industry in Tulsa
  • 29:16 - 29:21
    yeah bring it it's great they said it
  • 29:21 - 29:25
    couldn't be done but in
  • 29:25 - 29:28
    Oklahoma is a great great great teaching
  • 29:28 - 29:31
    moment for all of us because Oklahoma is
  • 29:31 - 29:33
    a state where the oil and gas industry
  • 29:33 - 29:35
    is incredibly powerful and we're in many
  • 29:35 - 29:39
    ways that industry has co-opted and
  • 29:39 - 29:41
    taken over what should otherwise be
  • 29:41 - 29:43
    government for the people and there's no
  • 29:43 - 29:44
    shame in that that happens literally
  • 29:44 - 29:47
    everywhere oil and gas is produced in
  • 29:47 - 29:50
    quantity everywhere on earth but because
  • 29:50 - 29:52
    of that co-optation
  • 29:52 - 29:54
    Oklahoma started to have some really
  • 29:54 - 29:55
    serious problems I mean including
  • 29:55 - 29:57
    man-made earthquakes but not just that
  • 29:57 - 30:00
    and the way they responded was that
  • 30:00 - 30:01
    they've kind of flipped the light switch
  • 30:01 - 30:04
    on their democracy and Oklahoma did not
  • 30:04 - 30:06
    become an environmental Haven and
  • 30:06 - 30:08
    Oklahoma did not shut down its oil and
  • 30:08 - 30:10
    gas industry and oil and Oklahoma did
  • 30:10 - 30:13
    not become a blue state but Oklahoma
  • 30:13 - 30:15
    citizens of all ideological stripes
  • 30:15 - 30:18
    decided that they needed to take back
  • 30:18 - 30:19
    what their government was doing from the
  • 30:19 - 30:22
    industry that was strangling it and they
  • 30:22 - 30:25
    showed up in quantity led by the
  • 30:25 - 30:26
    teachers and by the students who
  • 30:26 - 30:28
    supported them and they reorganized
  • 30:28 - 30:31
    their state budget and I know the level
  • 30:31 - 30:34
    of the gross production tax for oil and
  • 30:34 - 30:35
    natural gas in the state of Oklahoma
  • 30:35 - 30:36
    doesn't sound like it's the thing that's
  • 30:36 - 30:38
    going to save the world but when they
  • 30:38 - 30:40
    turned it from 2% to 5% by
  • 30:40 - 30:42
    people-powered demonstrations under the
  • 30:42 - 30:44
    Rotunda in the most oil and gas captured
  • 30:44 - 30:47
    government within the United States that
  • 30:47 - 30:49
    to me was the path even among those
  • 30:49 - 30:52
    Republican teachers most of them even in
  • 30:52 - 30:54
    that conservative state to know that
  • 30:54 - 30:58
    this is doable stuff and I am inspired
  • 30:58 - 31:02
    by that I am also humbled and inspired
  • 31:02 - 31:05
    and in awe of the climate activist
  • 31:05 - 31:07
    movement that's being led by young
  • 31:07 - 31:09
    people right now
  • 31:13 - 31:17
    I think that it is no secret that they
  • 31:17 - 31:20
    will win what they are trying to do they
  • 31:20 - 31:23
    are going to win and the question for
  • 31:23 - 31:25
    the United States for those of us here
  • 31:25 - 31:30
    in the u.s. is twofold one how quickly
  • 31:30 - 31:32
    are we going to get there how quickly
  • 31:32 - 31:33
    can we make this decision and how
  • 31:33 - 31:35
    ambitious can be can we be when we make
  • 31:35 - 31:38
    it but also can we rise to the occasion
  • 31:38 - 31:41
    of being the biggest economy on earth
  • 31:41 - 31:44
    every Western oil major is either
  • 31:44 - 31:45
    headquartered here or needs to do lots
  • 31:45 - 31:47
    of business here and that means they are
  • 31:47 - 31:52
    all de-facto regulated here and if the
  • 31:52 - 31:56
    American public would stand up and do
  • 31:56 - 31:58
    things at the federal level to regulate
  • 31:58 - 32:00
    this industry that literally props up
  • 32:00 - 32:04
    despot around the world that not only is
  • 32:04 - 32:06
    game over for the climate in terms of
  • 32:06 - 32:08
    them getting their way but that also
  • 32:08 - 32:10
    erodes our own governance here and
  • 32:10 - 32:13
    everywhere else they touch if we enacted
  • 32:13 - 32:14
    the reforms at the federal level which
  • 32:14 - 32:16
    is something we already started to do at
  • 32:16 - 32:18
    the end of the Obama administration and
  • 32:18 - 32:20
    it could be done it would have a
  • 32:20 - 32:23
    worldwide effect in terms of shoring up
  • 32:23 - 32:24
    democracy helping us make better
  • 32:24 - 32:27
    decisions about the climate and making
  • 32:27 - 32:28
    those decisions faster and with more
  • 32:28 - 32:31
    ambition and it's within our reach and
  • 32:31 - 32:35
    that to me is exciting and I will just
  • 32:35 - 32:37
    close with one last thought which is I
  • 32:37 - 32:41
    mentioned the paper towels thing it did
  • 32:41 - 32:44
    surprise me in writing the book that the
  • 32:44 - 32:49
    level of technological hmm that's the
  • 32:49 - 32:51
    nice way to say this the way we
  • 32:51 - 32:53
    overestimate the technological capacity
  • 32:53 - 32:55
    of this large cup this large cut this
  • 32:55 - 32:57
    large industry they're not as good as
  • 32:57 - 33:00
    they think they are we overestimate
  • 33:00 - 33:01
    their technological capability and we
  • 33:01 - 33:03
    underestimate their geopolitical impact
  • 33:03 - 33:06
    and if we are about to go through a
  • 33:06 - 33:08
    worldwide reckoning in terms of the use
  • 33:08 - 33:11
    of these fuels if we are about to have a
  • 33:11 - 33:13
    climate driven reckoning where we turn
  • 33:13 - 33:15
    away from this industry at last because
  • 33:15 - 33:18
    we need to obviously we're all focused
  • 33:18 - 33:19
    on what the environmental impact of that
  • 33:19 - 33:21
    will be but I think it is worth thinking
  • 33:21 - 33:23
    in advance about the fact that that's
  • 33:23 - 33:24
    going to have a big geopolitical impact
  • 33:24 - 33:27
    too because this industry does prop up
  • 33:27 - 33:29
    terrible governments all over the world
  • 33:29 - 33:32
    they prop up whole systems of governance
  • 33:32 - 33:35
    all around the world and if their market
  • 33:35 - 33:39
    share precipitously drops and if they
  • 33:39 - 33:41
    lose the power that they've got both
  • 33:41 - 33:43
    just in terms of their wealth and in
  • 33:43 - 33:44
    terms of their influence and how much we
  • 33:44 - 33:47
    need them I think we should expect that
  • 33:47 - 33:49
    the boundaries of countries may change I
  • 33:49 - 33:52
    think we should expect governance writ
  • 33:52 - 33:54
    large to change I think we should expect
  • 33:54 - 33:55
    a number of governments around the world
  • 33:55 - 33:58
    to fall and quickly and that's not to
  • 33:58 - 34:00
    say we shouldn't do it but it means that
  • 34:00 - 34:02
    when that happens when that tipping
  • 34:02 - 34:04
    point comes and it will come these
  • 34:04 - 34:06
    activists are gonna win when that moment
  • 34:06 - 34:09
    comes we need to be able to hold
  • 34:09 - 34:12
    ourselves up as an exemplar of democracy
  • 34:12 - 34:14
    why democracy is the best system that
  • 34:14 - 34:16
    anybody's ever invented to show that
  • 34:16 - 34:18
    it's strong that it works for the people
  • 34:18 - 34:20
    and when other forms of government are
  • 34:20 - 34:22
    in decline and in collapse we're the
  • 34:22 - 34:25
    example of what you want to be and
  • 34:25 - 34:29
    [Music]
  • 34:30 - 34:34
    so thank you all for coming I'm super
  • 34:34 - 34:35
    happy to have you here I'm gonna put
  • 34:35 - 34:36
    back on my glasses so now you're about
  • 34:36 - 34:41
    to reappear and Alison is here and we're
  • 34:41 - 34:43
    gonna do questions over there if I fall
  • 34:43 - 34:46
    down between here and there
  • 34:46 - 35:03
    thank you if I blue to floor it
  • 35:03 - 35:05
    I didn't bring the book over because
  • 35:05 - 35:06
    when you have crutches you can't put
  • 35:06 - 35:08
    anything in your hands so if you want me
  • 35:08 - 35:10
    to like reference anything I'll have to
  • 35:10 - 35:13
    crawl over we'll have someone run into
  • 35:13 - 35:14
    us okay how's that sound
  • 35:14 - 35:18
    great there's water here okay so I think
  • 35:18 - 35:19
    it goes without saying after your
  • 35:19 - 35:22
    earlier reception that it is such a
  • 35:22 - 35:25
    pleasure an honor and a thrill to have
  • 35:25 - 35:29
    you Rachel Maddow in Chicago
  • 35:35 - 35:38
    it's in I love this city I cannot
  • 35:38 - 35:41
    believe how many people are here it's
  • 35:41 - 35:43
    amazing I just I'm thrilled so thanks
  • 35:43 - 35:46
    yeah yeah we are too and and I as you
  • 35:46 - 35:47
    were saying I don't think any of us
  • 35:47 - 35:50
    anticipated that the world at this
  • 35:50 - 35:54
    moment would look feel sound like a kind
  • 35:54 - 35:59
    of Rachel Maddow opening of a except on
  • 35:59 - 36:00
    steroids you know that everything you've
  • 36:00 - 36:02
    been talking about you know you were
  • 36:02 - 36:06
    able to say this week on your show the
  • 36:06 - 36:08
    Russians did it it was the Russians you
  • 36:08 - 36:09
    know after the Senate Intelligence
  • 36:09 - 36:13
    report came out about infirmed previous
  • 36:13 - 36:15
    reports as you said a lot of the
  • 36:15 - 36:17
    characters that are in the book or that
  • 36:17 - 36:19
    you've been talking about on the show
  • 36:19 - 36:22
    Rex Tillerson is back in the news he
  • 36:22 - 36:25
    kind of gone dormant he came back just
  • 36:25 - 36:33
    for the book launch supportive Dimitri
  • 36:33 - 36:36
    firtash I'm so glad you found that one
  • 36:36 - 36:37
    of the most interesting parts of the
  • 36:37 - 36:39
    book but you know he's actually the
  • 36:39 - 36:40
    extradition they're trying to extradite
  • 36:40 - 36:46
    him to Chicago have you got any
  • 36:46 - 36:49
    Ukrainian connections or Dimitri firtash
  • 36:49 - 36:52
    goes on trial in Chicago I will be doing
  • 36:52 - 36:55
    the Rachel Maddow Show from
  • 37:01 - 37:05
    so yeah I mean it must must boom I mean
  • 37:05 - 37:07
    these are terrible times but it must
  • 37:07 - 37:12
    feel kind of good to you hey guys you
  • 37:12 - 37:14
    know I've been talking about this yeah
  • 37:14 - 37:16
    writing about the end of the world and
  • 37:16 - 37:23
    now here it is I really I was thinking
  • 37:23 - 37:24
    about the Russia attack and trying to
  • 37:24 - 37:27
    figure out you know as I said the sort
  • 37:27 - 37:29
    of motive force for what they did would
  • 37:29 - 37:30
    explain their desperation what would
  • 37:30 - 37:32
    possibly make it worth it what I think
  • 37:32 - 37:34
    that we're actually trying to get out of
  • 37:34 - 37:36
    that election interference I think
  • 37:36 - 37:38
    sanctions I think you can't understand
  • 37:38 - 37:41
    any of it without understanding how
  • 37:41 - 37:44
    difficult sanctions make it for Russia
  • 37:44 - 37:46
    specifically because they are an oil and
  • 37:46 - 37:48
    gas economy and their own oil and gas
  • 37:48 - 37:51
    companies are terrible because Putin is
  • 37:51 - 37:52
    terrible
  • 37:52 - 37:54
    like you kind of have to get all those
  • 37:54 - 37:55
    pieces of the story but it does kind of
  • 37:55 - 37:58
    fall into place I wasn't trying to
  • 37:58 - 37:59
    explain what Trump was going to get
  • 37:59 - 38:03
    impeached for that was just like a bonus
  • 38:03 - 38:06
    icing on the cake I am curious because
  • 38:06 - 38:08
    when you any as you were kind of closing
  • 38:08 - 38:10
    and bringing this together and talking
  • 38:10 - 38:12
    about the stakes in this and thinking
  • 38:12 - 38:15
    about democracy authoritarianism you
  • 38:15 - 38:17
    know you characterize the influence of
  • 38:17 - 38:19
    oil and gas on politics as petroleum
  • 38:19 - 38:22
    powered governance saying that it has
  • 38:22 - 38:25
    twin engines corruption in which the
  • 38:25 - 38:27
    industry effectively effectively
  • 38:27 - 38:30
    captures politicians and then capture in
  • 38:30 - 38:32
    which the industry effectively comes to
  • 38:32 - 38:35
    own the government and when you look at
  • 38:35 - 38:38
    the operations of oil and gas in Russia
  • 38:38 - 38:40
    when you look at the operations of oil
  • 38:40 - 38:41
    and gas and their influence in the
  • 38:41 - 38:43
    United States and of course this book is
  • 38:43 - 38:45
    about how they intertwine and take that
  • 38:45 - 38:49
    step back as you're asking us to do what
  • 38:49 - 38:50
    are the differences and are the
  • 38:50 - 38:53
    differences of degree or are they of
  • 38:53 - 38:58
    kind between Russia and us yes the thing
  • 38:58 - 39:01
    that Putin recognized about the oil and
  • 39:01 - 39:03
    gas industry I mean Russia really is
  • 39:03 - 39:06
    floating on a sea of oil and gas they
  • 39:06 - 39:07
    they have a ton of it and they were
  • 39:07 - 39:09
    among the first places in the world
  • 39:09 - 39:12
    to ever drill it in the former Soviet
  • 39:12 - 39:16
    Union and the Western Siberia noil sands
  • 39:16 - 39:18
    are incredibly easy to drill you don't
  • 39:18 - 39:21
    need very fancy technology in order to
  • 39:21 - 39:24
    do it and so it's always been a stable
  • 39:24 - 39:27
    part of even the Soviet economy before
  • 39:27 - 39:30
    the Russian Federation but when when
  • 39:30 - 39:32
    Putin got into power that's obviously
  • 39:32 - 39:34
    the time when Russia is in transition
  • 39:34 - 39:36
    post Yeltsin right
  • 39:36 - 39:39
    and Putin sort of has a decision to make
  • 39:39 - 39:42
    as to whether or not Russia is going to
  • 39:42 - 39:46
    economically liberalize enough to have a
  • 39:46 - 39:48
    diversified economy they're gonna have
  • 39:48 - 39:50
    oil and gas at some level no matter what
  • 39:50 - 39:52
    but in order to have a diversified
  • 39:52 - 39:55
    economy and a well-balanced economy you
  • 39:55 - 39:58
    kind of need like property rights rule
  • 39:58 - 40:01
    of law a legal system that isn't just
  • 40:01 - 40:03
    used to kill your enemies and and give
  • 40:03 - 40:08
    favors to your kids you need a lack of
  • 40:08 - 40:10
    general corruption at everything from
  • 40:10 - 40:13
    the permitting process to the election
  • 40:13 - 40:16
    process and that was it seemed terrible
  • 40:16 - 40:19
    to Vladimir Putin the idea that you'd
  • 40:19 - 40:20
    have to go through these sort of
  • 40:20 - 40:21
    nation-building
  • 40:21 - 40:24
    things in order to develop a modern
  • 40:24 - 40:27
    capitalist diversified economy was not
  • 40:27 - 40:29
    going to work for him and so he decided
  • 40:29 - 40:33
    to kind of go all in on oil and gas to
  • 40:33 - 40:37
    the basic basically to the extent where
  • 40:37 - 40:42
    he took over the industry so that it
  • 40:42 - 40:43
    could essentially be used as a power of
  • 40:43 - 40:45
    that as a tool of the presidency right
  • 40:45 - 40:48
    oil is power oil is corrupt and so
  • 40:48 - 40:51
    Russia is a weak country with a weak
  • 40:51 - 40:53
    economy which that what it would take to
  • 40:53 - 40:55
    make it a strong economy he can't bear
  • 40:55 - 40:57
    so it's gonna be a weak economy having a
  • 40:57 - 40:58
    weak economy having a weak political
  • 40:58 - 41:00
    structure that's essentially evolved
  • 41:00 - 41:01
    into just this kleptocratic
  • 41:01 - 41:03
    authoritarianism now there's not much to
  • 41:03 - 41:05
    offer and it's not that's not the way
  • 41:05 - 41:06
    you become a stronger and more
  • 41:06 - 41:08
    influential country but he still sees
  • 41:08 - 41:11
    Russia as having an international scale
  • 41:11 - 41:14
    but having ambitions of international
  • 41:14 - 41:16
    scale and so the reason that oil and gas
  • 41:16 - 41:18
    was so attractive to him as something he
  • 41:18 - 41:20
    was willing to rely on in its entirety
  • 41:20 - 41:22
    was because if he could control them and
  • 41:22 - 41:23
    wheel
  • 41:23 - 41:26
    his tools he could use them as weapons
  • 41:26 - 41:29
    against other countries and that's what
  • 41:29 - 41:30
    he's done in the near abroad in terms of
  • 41:30 - 41:32
    all the former Soviet states Ukraine
  • 41:32 - 41:34
    first among them but that's also what
  • 41:34 - 41:35
    he's doing with Western Europe I mean he
  • 41:35 - 41:38
    can literally turn the lights off at
  • 41:38 - 41:41
    will in Germany and in Ukraine and in
  • 41:41 - 41:45
    lots of other places and that power is
  • 41:45 - 41:47
    irresistible to him and it's really the
  • 41:47 - 41:50
    only power that he's got and so to see
  • 41:50 - 41:53
    oil and gas used as a weapon there and
  • 41:53 - 41:55
    to see him make the because he wanted to
  • 41:55 - 41:57
    control it himself he couldn't allow for
  • 41:57 - 41:59
    there to be good companies run by strong
  • 41:59 - 42:01
    guys who got rich doing it because they
  • 42:01 - 42:02
    were good at the oil and gas business
  • 42:02 - 42:04
    anytime anybody got good at it he would
  • 42:04 - 42:06
    lock them up take their company and fold
  • 42:06 - 42:09
    it into Ross and after gas problem so
  • 42:09 - 42:10
    their help they have a terrible oil and
  • 42:10 - 42:12
    gas sector even though it's all they've
  • 42:12 - 42:14
    got its run by like his judo partners
  • 42:14 - 42:16
    for money with seven it's all these guys
  • 42:16 - 42:18
    with like noses that go this way and you
  • 42:18 - 42:20
    know kicked dogs for fun on their coffee
  • 42:20 - 42:22
    breaks I mean it's just they're terrible
  • 42:22 - 42:26
    the Gazprom lost over 300 billion
  • 42:26 - 42:28
    dollars of its valuation since this guy
  • 42:28 - 42:30
    Alexey Miller has been in charge but
  • 42:30 - 42:31
    he's still in charge because he's doing
  • 42:31 - 42:33
    exactly what Putin wants them to do with
  • 42:33 - 42:35
    that company it's they're terrible in
  • 42:35 - 42:38
    order to drill oil and gas in Russia as
  • 42:38 - 42:41
    they run out of the easy oil and gas
  • 42:41 - 42:42
    that they were used to as they need to
  • 42:42 - 42:44
    get to more challenging drilling
  • 42:44 - 42:46
    locations like the Arctic sea and all
  • 42:46 - 42:47
    these other places they want to drill
  • 42:47 - 42:49
    they can't do it with the terrible
  • 42:49 - 42:51
    companies they have they need to tap
  • 42:51 - 42:53
    Western experts this is one ant with
  • 42:53 - 42:54
    sanction this is one of the ironies
  • 42:54 - 42:56
    right the rhetoric in the United States
  • 42:56 - 42:58
    in some circles has long been that we
  • 42:58 - 43:01
    are dependent on foreign oil and in fact
  • 43:01 - 43:03
    foreign or at least Russian oil is
  • 43:03 - 43:07
    highly dependent on our oil and and our
  • 43:07 - 43:09
    oil expertise as they're saying it's a
  • 43:09 - 43:11
    form of people like Rex Tillerson and
  • 43:11 - 43:14
    Exxon yeah and not in it turned like it
  • 43:14 - 43:15
    turns out there's like these amazing
  • 43:15 - 43:18
    stories to tell about that I mean so
  • 43:18 - 43:21
    Russia after what I was describing there
  • 43:21 - 43:23
    in terms of Yanukovych turning tail and
  • 43:23 - 43:27
    fleeing and Putin being really mad right
  • 43:27 - 43:28
    what we all know what happened right
  • 43:28 - 43:30
    after that right Putin invaded Ukraine
  • 43:30 - 43:33
    and took part of it and in response the
  • 43:33 - 43:36
    u.s. put sanctions on them and in 2014
  • 43:36 - 43:40
    who Rosneft had just done a half
  • 43:40 - 43:42
    trillion dollar oil deal the largest oil
  • 43:42 - 43:45
    deal in the history of deals Ross left
  • 43:45 - 43:47
    of Justin a huge half trillion dollar
  • 43:47 - 43:49
    deal with Exxon to go do some of this
  • 43:49 - 43:51
    challenging drilling up in the Arctic
  • 43:51 - 43:55
    among other places and Rex Tillerson is
  • 43:55 - 43:56
    the one who did that deal lots of other
  • 43:56 - 43:58
    Western executives have had a really
  • 43:58 - 44:00
    hard time in Russia but Rex figured it
  • 44:00 - 44:07
    out somehow he didn't Putin somehow saw
  • 44:07 - 44:09
    eye to eye he was able to do this giant
  • 44:09 - 44:10
    deal and they were up there drilling in
  • 44:10 - 44:14
    the Arctic sea as or in the Kara Sea as
  • 44:14 - 44:17
    US sanctions on Russia were going into
  • 44:17 - 44:19
    effect as US sanctions on the head of
  • 44:19 - 44:21
    Russia's national oil company we're
  • 44:21 - 44:23
    going into effect and Rex and Exxon are
  • 44:23 - 44:25
    still there going we need a couple more
  • 44:25 - 44:27
    days we need a couple more days we have
  • 44:27 - 44:28
    we need an environmental waiver we're
  • 44:28 - 44:30
    worried about cleaning up properly
  • 44:30 - 44:32
    because of the birds we're really
  • 44:32 - 44:34
    worried about the we can't leave and
  • 44:34 - 44:35
    they're trying to get one more day one
  • 44:35 - 44:37
    more day one more day one more extension
  • 44:37 - 44:39
    because they're trying to hit oil before
  • 44:39 - 44:43
    they go and they do they hit oil and
  • 44:43 - 44:44
    then the next day sanctions yanked them
  • 44:44 - 44:47
    out of there and Russian oil and gas
  • 44:47 - 44:49
    companies suck so badly that even with
  • 44:49 - 44:51
    Exxon having drilled the well and found
  • 44:51 - 44:53
    the oil and pointed them toward it they
  • 44:53 - 44:56
    can't get it out of the ground and so
  • 44:56 - 44:58
    since that day with that half trillion
  • 44:58 - 45:00
    dollar deal on ice because of u.s.
  • 45:00 - 45:01
    foreign policy
  • 45:01 - 45:04
    Russia has been up against it this is
  • 45:04 - 45:05
    the only thing they've got in their
  • 45:05 - 45:06
    economy how are they going to get that
  • 45:06 - 45:09
    oil they need this they need Exxon they
  • 45:09 - 45:10
    need these Western companies well u.s.
  • 45:10 - 45:12
    foreign policy says they can't use them
  • 45:12 - 45:14
    well who should our guy who we just
  • 45:14 - 45:16
    installed in the White House be put in
  • 45:16 - 45:19
    charge of u.s. foreign policy then how
  • 45:19 - 45:22
    about Rex
  • 45:22 - 45:25
    it's an existential threat to them it
  • 45:25 - 45:27
    was worth it right man they also did
  • 45:27 - 45:29
    things despite sanctions like the
  • 45:29 - 45:31
    annexation of Crimea and their
  • 45:31 - 45:34
    developing oil and drilling there and I
  • 45:34 - 45:36
    wondered but reading that story it's
  • 45:36 - 45:39
    about you know what Russia is trying to
  • 45:39 - 45:41
    do to maintain this power and hold on to
  • 45:41 - 45:44
    it and it ensure a steady supply of it
  • 45:44 - 45:47
    because it is all power to them but it's
  • 45:47 - 45:49
    also about Exxon and Tillerson and
  • 45:49 - 45:51
    others trying to figure out how do we
  • 45:51 - 45:53
    work around the edges of these sanctions
  • 45:53 - 45:54
    and what are the loopholes so we can
  • 45:54 - 45:57
    continue to do this and it struck me in
  • 45:57 - 46:00
    as all of this is coming together into
  • 46:00 - 46:02
    that great big you know the the Rachel
  • 46:02 - 46:05
    Maddow prophecy that is now on earth
  • 46:05 - 46:09
    said that there's something similar in
  • 46:09 - 46:14
    the way that President Trump and and
  • 46:14 - 46:17
    some of the people around him are kind
  • 46:17 - 46:18
    of you know right now they're not
  • 46:18 - 46:19
    talking about the content of the
  • 46:19 - 46:21
    impeachment and all the news that is
  • 46:21 - 46:23
    coming out Gordon Sandlin just now is
  • 46:23 - 46:25
    saying that he will go before Congress
  • 46:25 - 46:28
    and talk about the quid pro quo they're
  • 46:28 - 46:31
    talking about the legality of this and
  • 46:31 - 46:32
    kind of refusing it and that is
  • 46:32 - 46:35
    something that this president has seemed
  • 46:35 - 46:39
    very good at to kind of test guardrails
  • 46:39 - 46:41
    and then push right through them and
  • 46:41 - 46:43
    ignore them and so as we're moving
  • 46:43 - 46:46
    forward and as you're watching this what
  • 46:46 - 46:48
    do you think to come back to that
  • 46:48 - 46:51
    question of if we are the kind of stop
  • 46:51 - 46:53
    you know this is where it stops our
  • 46:53 - 46:55
    democracy we have to be the best
  • 46:55 - 46:58
    what should the Democrats be doing to
  • 46:58 - 47:00
    try and enforce those kind of democratic
  • 47:00 - 47:03
    guardrails against them when he
  • 47:03 - 47:04
    seemingly does not seem to care about
  • 47:04 - 47:06
    them or even acknowledge them yeah I
  • 47:06 - 47:09
    mean I what's been interesting I think
  • 47:09 - 47:10
    with the president it's a very astute
  • 47:10 - 47:13
    point I think is that I feel like what
  • 47:13 - 47:15
    we've watched in real time over the
  • 47:15 - 47:18
    course of his presidency is that he
  • 47:18 - 47:20
    learns where these democratic norms are
  • 47:20 - 47:23
    in real time by crossing them because he
  • 47:23 - 47:27
    didn't know they were there like I'm not
  • 47:27 - 47:29
    supposed to just give security
  • 47:29 - 47:31
    clearances to my kids
  • 47:31 - 47:34
    this is a problem oh you're bothered by
  • 47:34 - 47:34
    this
  • 47:34 - 47:36
    yeah I'm given security clearances to
  • 47:36 - 47:39
    everybody you know like he learns what
  • 47:39 - 47:41
    if the problem learns what's illegal or
  • 47:41 - 47:44
    what the problem is by doing it and then
  • 47:44 - 47:48
    decides to make a virtue of it and so
  • 47:48 - 47:50
    that makes it hard to figure out like
  • 47:50 - 47:53
    usually when people do stuff in politics
  • 47:53 - 47:56
    that's bad like that getting caught is
  • 47:56 - 47:58
    the start of it getting fixed but in
  • 47:58 - 48:00
    this case getting caught is the start of
  • 48:00 - 48:02
    the Republican Party trying to celebrate
  • 48:02 - 48:04
    that at that crime is a new virtue and
  • 48:04 - 48:15
    that shamelessness about about about
  • 48:15 - 48:16
    what they're doing wrong
  • 48:16 - 48:19
    makes it hard I mean our most of our
  • 48:19 - 48:22
    tools within the Democrat within our
  • 48:22 - 48:24
    American democratic process are based on
  • 48:24 - 48:27
    shame that if you do this you will have
  • 48:27 - 48:29
    to disclose it and once you disclose it
  • 48:29 - 48:30
    people will criticize you for it and you
  • 48:30 - 48:32
    will be ashamed and that is the
  • 48:32 - 48:33
    disincentive for you to do the thing in
  • 48:33 - 48:36
    the first place well not if you don't
  • 48:36 - 48:41
    have any shame so it's hard but I mean
  • 48:41 - 48:44
    the the thing I am I the thing I see the
  • 48:44 - 48:46
    Democrats doing that I think is
  • 48:46 - 48:49
    unavoidable but also keeps me up a
  • 48:49 - 48:51
    little bit at night is that they are
  • 48:51 - 48:54
    taking the things that used to be rules
  • 48:54 - 48:58
    that the president has gleefully broken
  • 48:58 - 48:59
    and that the Republican Party and the
  • 48:59 - 49:01
    president's supporters have tried to
  • 49:01 - 49:04
    turn into virtues because he has broken
  • 49:04 - 49:06
    those things there
  • 49:06 - 49:08
    the Democrats are now looking at those
  • 49:08 - 49:09
    rules and thinking about making them
  • 49:09 - 49:12
    into laws the things that you were just
  • 49:12 - 49:13
    supposed to not do because they were
  • 49:13 - 49:15
    disgusting or because they were
  • 49:15 - 49:17
    politically unpalatable you will now not
  • 49:17 - 49:21
    be allowed to do and that's probably
  • 49:21 - 49:27
    necessary but it also change our
  • 49:27 - 49:32
    democratic system and I don't want the
  • 49:32 - 49:34
    judiciary to be the only check on our
  • 49:34 - 49:38
    political officials especially
  • 49:40 - 49:43
    because I'm very worried about the
  • 49:43 - 49:44
    direction of the justice department
  • 49:44 - 49:48
    right now I mean the the biggest norm
  • 49:48 - 49:50
    that has been broken in this
  • 49:50 - 49:52
    administration I think has actually not
  • 49:52 - 49:54
    been broken by the president but by the
  • 49:54 - 49:57
    Attorney General and the most serious
  • 49:57 - 49:59
    thing that we have to worry about in
  • 49:59 - 50:01
    terms of the drift of our democracy
  • 50:01 - 50:03
    right now is I think the use of the US
  • 50:03 - 50:07
    Justice Department to punish the
  • 50:07 - 50:08
    president's political opponents and
  • 50:08 - 50:15
    reward his political allies that that is
  • 50:15 - 50:17
    something for which a former attorney
  • 50:17 - 50:18
    general named John Mitchell went to
  • 50:18 - 50:23
    prison in the 1970s and I'm I feel like
  • 50:23 - 50:26
    if John Mitchell were alive right now
  • 50:26 - 50:28
    and working in the Justice Department
  • 50:28 - 50:30
    his only worry would be how fast he was
  • 50:30 - 50:33
    getting promoted and I'm very very
  • 50:33 - 50:35
    concerned about that and you couple that
  • 50:35 - 50:37
    with the sort of neat this feeling among
  • 50:37 - 50:39
    the Democrats that this stuff ought to
  • 50:39 - 50:40
    be illegal so nobody else can get away
  • 50:40 - 50:43
    with it the way Trump has those those
  • 50:43 - 50:45
    things pull me in opposite directions
  • 50:45 - 50:49
    mm-hmm yeah I you know I an audience
  • 50:49 - 50:52
    question for you there's a number of
  • 50:52 - 50:54
    things to be worrying about but there's
  • 50:54 - 50:56
    also this question from Vicki Fogerty if
  • 50:56 - 50:59
    and you've answered this already but
  • 50:59 - 51:01
    since as you say everything's moving so
  • 51:01 - 51:03
    quickly I curious to know what your
  • 51:03 - 51:06
    answer is now low these three days later
  • 51:06 - 51:09
    Vicki Fogerty asks if the evidence is
  • 51:09 - 51:10
    there for impeachment do you believe the
  • 51:10 - 51:12
    republican-controlled Senate will
  • 51:12 - 51:15
    impeach so that's the first part what
  • 51:15 - 51:18
    will the Senate do yeah I have no idea I
  • 51:18 - 51:20
    mean it's very easy I think to look at
  • 51:20 - 51:22
    Mitch McConnell from a distance and be
  • 51:22 - 51:25
    like yeah okay
  • 51:25 - 51:28
    but I also I do feel like we are in a
  • 51:28 - 51:30
    special moment and it is worth
  • 51:30 - 51:34
    appreciating the unique nature of the
  • 51:34 - 51:35
    thing that our country is going through
  • 51:35 - 51:37
    right now I mean President Trump has
  • 51:37 - 51:39
    been very controversial since before his
  • 51:39 - 51:41
    election and the idea that he is now
  • 51:41 - 51:43
    being impeached in some ways I think
  • 51:43 - 51:46
    feels inevitable feels like you know a
  • 51:46 - 51:47
    relief for people who have been critical
  • 51:47 - 51:52
    of his behavior but impeachment is
  • 51:52 - 51:55
    is is a hen's tooth I mean it's a really
  • 51:55 - 51:59
    rare thing it was Andrew Johnson in 1867
  • 51:59 - 52:01
    keep me honest I think they tried to
  • 52:01 - 52:04
    impeach him in 67 and they failed and
  • 52:04 - 52:05
    then they went back with like exactly
  • 52:05 - 52:07
    the same articles innate to 1868 and
  • 52:07 - 52:10
    they got him then and Johnson was not
  • 52:10 - 52:12
    removed because of Furth for want of one
  • 52:12 - 52:14
    vote in the Senate so that was the house
  • 52:14 - 52:16
    impeaching him the Senate not removing
  • 52:16 - 52:17
    him you have to get to the 90s before we
  • 52:17 - 52:20
    do it again Richard Nixon resigned
  • 52:20 - 52:21
    without being impeached yes they were
  • 52:21 - 52:23
    drawing up impeachment articles but he
  • 52:23 - 52:25
    resigned rather than face that so it's
  • 52:25 - 52:27
    Andrew Johnson and Richard and and Bill
  • 52:27 - 52:29
    Clinton that's it that's the only
  • 52:29 - 52:31
    history that we've got as a country with
  • 52:31 - 52:33
    impeachment and if you think that you
  • 52:33 - 52:35
    can extrapolate from those two examples
  • 52:35 - 52:37
    right to understand you know what's
  • 52:37 - 52:40
    normal but if the Republican if the
  • 52:40 - 52:43
    Senate does not yeah in vote to impeach
  • 52:43 - 52:45
    what does that do to the Republican
  • 52:45 - 52:46
    Party that's the second half of the case
  • 52:46 - 52:49
    well I don't I mean I don't I don't know
  • 52:49 - 52:51
    what's going to happen I don't know when
  • 52:51 - 52:53
    the Democrats are going to take their
  • 52:53 - 52:54
    impeachment vote and I don't know what
  • 52:54 - 52:55
    they're gonna try to impeach him on I
  • 52:55 - 52:58
    think the number of articles that they
  • 52:58 - 52:59
    try to impeach him on may end up being
  • 52:59 - 53:01
    very important just in terms of the game
  • 53:01 - 53:03
    theory of all of this in terms of the
  • 53:03 - 53:05
    numbers of Republicans who may find
  • 53:05 - 53:07
    something in an article three that they
  • 53:07 - 53:10
    didn't like in an article two when it
  • 53:10 - 53:12
    gets to the US Senate I think that most
  • 53:12 - 53:14
    democratic senators will likely vote to
  • 53:14 - 53:17
    remove I think that Republican senators
  • 53:17 - 53:20
    are basically thought to not have any
  • 53:20 - 53:21
    chance of that but I also feel like we
  • 53:21 - 53:23
    should be humble about that prediction
  • 53:23 - 53:24
    I don't know what's gonna happen we
  • 53:24 - 53:25
    don't know what's gonna come out and
  • 53:25 - 53:27
    preachments only been going on for three
  • 53:27 - 53:29
    weeks now and look how much we've
  • 53:29 - 53:34
    learned we didn't even know Igor
  • 53:36 - 53:38
    did you guys see the picture that
  • 53:38 - 53:41
    circulated today which is Igor and Lev
  • 53:41 - 53:46
    and Mike Huckabee and Igor or love again
  • 53:46 - 53:47
    I'm sorry I don't know which one of them
  • 53:47 - 53:54
    is literally holding a bag of money is
  • 53:54 - 53:58
    this Halloween costume is it I don't
  • 53:58 - 54:01
    know what will happen I think listen if
  • 54:01 - 54:05
    Mitch McConnell was never going to do
  • 54:05 - 54:06
    anything and he knew that from the
  • 54:06 - 54:08
    beginning no matter what came out
  • 54:08 - 54:10
    weren't you surprised when he came out
  • 54:10 - 54:12
    and said in an interview the other day
  • 54:12 - 54:14
    like actually we will be forced to take
  • 54:14 - 54:15
    this up in the Senate as I understand
  • 54:15 - 54:16
    the impeachment process but you don't
  • 54:16 - 54:18
    have a choice we got to bring it up now
  • 54:18 - 54:19
    he very quickly said now I don't know
  • 54:19 - 54:21
    how long that means we'll spend on it
  • 54:21 - 54:23
    and so maybe that means he convenes the
  • 54:23 - 54:24
    impeachment trial adjourns it and it's
  • 54:24 - 54:26
    over in the blink of an eye but he could
  • 54:26 - 54:28
    have Merrick garland did this thing just
  • 54:28 - 54:29
    as easily
  • 54:29 - 54:30
    I mean Mitch McConnell is not that
  • 54:30 - 54:32
    worried about the niceties of Senate
  • 54:32 - 54:34
    procedure when it comes to getting
  • 54:34 - 54:35
    something important that he wants for
  • 54:35 - 54:37
    partisan purposes and I say that with
  • 54:37 - 54:41
    great deal of admiration but he could
  • 54:41 - 54:43
    have just said no there's no chance
  • 54:43 - 54:45
    we're not taking it up don't bother he
  • 54:45 - 54:47
    didn't which means he's keeping a door
  • 54:47 - 54:51
    open for himself and I just don't think
  • 54:51 - 54:52
    we should prejudge any stuff of this I
  • 54:52 - 54:54
    think we need to have eyes open I think
  • 54:54 - 54:57
    that Republican I think that Republican
  • 54:57 - 54:59
    politicians and Democratic politicians
  • 54:59 - 55:01
    right now could both benefit from our
  • 55:01 - 55:04
    high expectations and lack of cynicism
  • 55:04 - 55:06
    about this process expect the best and
  • 55:06 - 55:09
    the most for almost all of these
  • 55:09 - 55:11
    politicians what they do in this
  • 55:11 - 55:13
    impeachment process will be in the first
  • 55:13 - 55:15
    paragraph of their obituary and they all
  • 55:15 - 55:19
    know it and that has a tendency to focus
  • 55:19 - 55:21
    a person's eyes on the horizon rather
  • 55:21 - 55:23
    than on their own feet and I think that
  • 55:23 - 55:25
    we I mean if you are a dyed-in-the-wool
  • 55:25 - 55:27
    Democrat or super liberal super
  • 55:27 - 55:30
    progressive or the opposite expect the
  • 55:30 - 55:33
    most and demand the most of people on
  • 55:33 - 55:34
    both sides of the aisle right here this
  • 55:34 - 55:36
    really isn't supposed to be a partisan
  • 55:36 - 55:37
    thing this is supposed to be a patriotic
  • 55:37 - 55:39
    thing and I think we should feel solemn
  • 55:39 - 55:41
    about that
  • 55:47 - 55:50
    but it's hard not to shrug at some of
  • 55:50 - 55:52
    the high jinks there are some hijinks
  • 55:52 - 55:55
    yes yes the tagline of your show so I
  • 55:55 - 55:58
    want to move away from love and he or
  • 55:58 - 56:01
    Gore and Rudy and Mitch to talk about
  • 56:01 - 56:03
    you the tagline in their show is trying
  • 56:03 - 56:04
    to increase the amount of useful
  • 56:04 - 56:07
    information in the world so you do deal
  • 56:07 - 56:10
    in reason and information facts rational
  • 56:10 - 56:12
    arguments you try to ground us you know
  • 56:12 - 56:15
    give us that solid solid standing but
  • 56:15 - 56:17
    people I don't know how many people that
  • 56:17 - 56:19
    I told you were coming who were
  • 56:19 - 56:22
    immediately like I guess you know
  • 56:22 - 56:26
    shocked so excited and then said I get
  • 56:26 - 56:29
    so worked up watching this show oh I
  • 56:29 - 56:31
    mean in fact I witnessed this I I hope
  • 56:31 - 56:33
    this isn't tiem I you know I dated
  • 56:33 - 56:36
    someone briefly who was a big Rachel
  • 56:36 - 56:36
    Maddow
  • 56:36 - 56:39
    fan watched the show and get enormous
  • 56:39 - 56:41
    Lee worked up like this and this is not
  • 56:41 - 56:43
    the reason we stopped dating but I did
  • 56:43 - 56:45
    at some point feel like Rachel Maddow is
  • 56:45 - 56:47
    a bigger presence in this relationship
  • 56:47 - 56:50
    [Laughter]
  • 56:50 - 56:53
    [Applause]
  • 56:53 - 56:59
    [Laughter]
  • 57:01 - 57:03
    wait can we talk a little bit about the
  • 57:03 - 57:05
    nature of the worked up like angry
  • 57:05 - 57:07
    anxious upset I think all of the above
  • 57:07 - 57:09
    and so what I'm wondering is like you
  • 57:09 - 57:11
    know your your reason and then the
  • 57:11 - 57:13
    emotion and the reason what do you make
  • 57:13 - 57:14
    of that emotion that emotional response
  • 57:14 - 57:16
    because I don't think that's what you're
  • 57:16 - 57:19
    necessarily going for oh no I don't I'm
  • 57:19 - 57:20
    this is this concept that you're
  • 57:20 - 57:25
    describing to me is new to me I I mean I
  • 57:25 - 57:29
    I have friends and like friends parents
  • 57:29 - 57:31
    in particular who say I can't watch you
  • 57:31 - 57:34
    at night because then I can't go to bed
  • 57:34 - 57:35
    sorry I got it
  • 57:35 - 57:38
    and so I listen in the morning or watch
  • 57:38 - 57:39
    in the morning because it's easier for
  • 57:39 - 57:43
    me and that I just thought that's you
  • 57:43 - 57:44
    know like I can't have chocolate after
  • 57:44 - 57:50
    5:00 was a constitutional thing I didn't
  • 57:50 - 57:53
    know it was a widespread phenomenon
  • 57:53 - 57:54
    she was saying that I don't know I mean
  • 57:54 - 58:01
    I am how do I say this I I am a crier I
  • 58:01 - 58:04
    am a person who easily I just I've
  • 58:04 - 58:06
    either leak ride whenever I hear the
  • 58:06 - 58:08
    national anthem I cry whenever I take
  • 58:08 - 58:10
    the subway if somebody is busking in the
  • 58:10 - 58:12
    subway even if they're terrible
  • 58:12 - 58:16
    immediately waterworks I just like that
  • 58:16 - 58:20
    and in that way I sometimes show emotion
  • 58:20 - 58:23
    on TV without wanting to because I can't
  • 58:23 - 58:25
    control it I mean I have little tricks
  • 58:25 - 58:26
    and stuff but I can't really control it
  • 58:26 - 58:29
    but aside from that being an easy crier
  • 58:29 - 58:33
    I'm not that emotional a person and I
  • 58:33 - 58:36
    don't think it helps me convey the stuff
  • 58:36 - 58:38
    that I want to convey in the show to
  • 58:38 - 58:41
    yell it or to have a fight with somebody
  • 58:41 - 58:44
    about it or to you know pound the table
  • 58:44 - 58:46
    I mean I know there's a little bit of
  • 58:46 - 58:47
    that because sometimes I get a little
  • 58:47 - 58:49
    wound up in what I'm doing but I I
  • 58:49 - 58:51
    mostly I'm trying to convey information
  • 58:51 - 58:53
    and so to the extent that what that is
  • 58:53 - 58:56
    doing is creating a motion I have no
  • 58:56 - 58:58
    idea what to do with that I don't I'm
  • 58:58 - 59:07
    not I'm not trying to upset you I am
  • 59:07 - 59:09
    totally happy okay
  • 59:09 - 59:10
    okay I want to ask you another question
  • 59:10 - 59:13
    about you you know you blend this like
  • 59:13 - 59:17
    incredible wonkish attention to detail
  • 59:17 - 59:20
    with this the satirist sense of you know
  • 59:20 - 59:22
    the big picture and like weaving the
  • 59:22 - 59:26
    story together and doing it with all
  • 59:26 - 59:30
    this wit and glee and you know just
  • 59:30 - 59:32
    energy it's really remarkable to watch
  • 59:32 - 59:34
    and so you did a PhD in political
  • 59:34 - 59:37
    science which I assume a place right on
  • 59:37 - 59:41
    then steered poli-sci grad school
  • 59:41 - 59:46
    you are a certified wok but we're about
  • 59:46 - 59:48
    what about that storytelling craft and
  • 59:48 - 59:49
    that biting wit you have that you're so
  • 59:49 - 59:51
    famous for and that does draw people
  • 59:51 - 59:53
    into you know I think that's part of why
  • 59:53 - 59:55
    they get so emotionally engaged with you
  • 59:55 - 59:57
    where did that come from is that is
  • 59:57 - 59:59
    there was it always part of your
  • 59:59 - 60:01
    worldview or is there a person or an
  • 60:01 - 60:04
    experience you can point to that that
  • 60:04 - 60:07
    brought that to you I don't know I mean
  • 60:07 - 60:10
    I never intended to have this kind of a
  • 60:10 - 60:12
    career you know like I wasn't aiming at
  • 60:12 - 60:14
    media certainly I thought I was going to
  • 60:14 - 60:18
    be an activist and so I pursued my
  • 60:18 - 60:21
    academic career as sort of trying to
  • 60:21 - 60:24
    build myself a good toolkit for being a
  • 60:24 - 60:28
    better activist I never really I've
  • 60:28 - 60:29
    never really been a person who could
  • 60:29 - 60:31
    imagine my life very far into the future
  • 60:31 - 60:35
    which is some subject for therapy and we
  • 60:35 - 60:39
    could do it here but great time these
  • 60:39 - 60:41
    chairs are coming it's do you mind if I
  • 60:41 - 60:46
    lie down nicely and so I was sort of
  • 60:46 - 60:48
    doing that in a kind of utilitarian way
  • 60:48 - 60:50
    trying as an activist I felt like my
  • 60:50 - 60:52
    what I needed to be able to do was
  • 60:52 - 60:53
    understand the field in which I was
  • 60:53 - 60:56
    working I was an AIDS activist and then
  • 60:56 - 60:57
    ultimately became a prison reform
  • 60:57 - 60:59
    activists and those things were
  • 60:59 - 61:01
    connected and so I needed to understand
  • 61:01 - 61:02
    the field in which I was operating I
  • 61:02 - 61:04
    needed to be able to speak with lots of
  • 61:04 - 61:06
    different people in order to receive
  • 61:06 - 61:08
    information from experts in that field
  • 61:08 - 61:10
    and then I needed to be able to
  • 61:10 - 61:13
    synthesize the political aims of what I
  • 61:13 - 61:16
    was doing into a story that would make
  • 61:16 - 61:18
    the decision-maker change their mind and
  • 61:18 - 61:21
    so like I did public policy as my
  • 61:21 - 61:24
    undergraduate degree with a focus on
  • 61:24 - 61:25
    healthcare because I was an AIDS
  • 61:25 - 61:26
    activist and I felt like I needed that
  • 61:26 - 61:28
    but I did a essentially a minor like an
  • 61:28 - 61:31
    honors thing in in ethics which was the
  • 61:31 - 61:33
    way that at the school I went to that's
  • 61:33 - 61:36
    the way you minor in philosophy and the
  • 61:36 - 61:37
    reason I wanted to do philosophy is
  • 61:37 - 61:38
    because I felt like I wanted to be
  • 61:38 - 61:41
    better at making arguments and when it
  • 61:41 - 61:45
    came to doing a doctoral dissertation I
  • 61:45 - 61:48
    had done a really heavily quantitative
  • 61:48 - 61:50
    undergraduate degree I did a lot of
  • 61:50 - 61:52
    statistics and stuff just that was again
  • 61:52 - 61:54
    trying to become more literate in ways
  • 61:54 - 61:54
    that I
  • 61:54 - 61:56
    would help me make better arguments and
  • 61:56 - 61:57
    be better at what I was trying to do and
  • 61:57 - 61:59
    so I wanted to kind of balance that
  • 61:59 - 62:02
    another way and and tell a big story
  • 62:02 - 62:04
    about social movements and social change
  • 62:04 - 62:05
    and that's what I did my doctoral
  • 62:05 - 62:07
    dissertation on so much it's all about
  • 62:07 - 62:09
    like just trying to get the next thing
  • 62:09 - 62:11
    done that I wanted to do but I ended up
  • 62:11 - 62:14
    at the end of it having been an activist
  • 62:14 - 62:17
    from the time that I was 16 and having
  • 62:17 - 62:18
    been trained in argument and public
  • 62:18 - 62:21
    policy in the mean time and that ended
  • 62:21 - 62:24
    up unbeknownst to me being a good
  • 62:24 - 62:26
    background for doing the kind of work
  • 62:26 - 62:27
    that I do now but it wasn't what I was
  • 62:27 - 62:31
    aiming at and in terms of being goofy I
  • 62:31 - 62:38
    think I I mean I think I'm just immature
  • 62:40 - 62:43
    I mean I mean it literally I am immature
  • 62:43 - 62:46
    but I don't just mean it like making fun
  • 62:46 - 62:48
    of myself I think that I like have an
  • 62:48 - 62:52
    eight-year-old sense of humor and so
  • 62:52 - 62:55
    like the there's always going to be like
  • 62:55 - 62:56
    oh like there's going to be a fart joke
  • 62:56 - 62:58
    somewhere you know there's gonna be like
  • 62:58 - 63:00
    I had to tell them like doubles
  • 63:00 - 63:04
    excrement slays me like I'm kind of
  • 63:04 - 63:10
    eight and so I that's how I think and if
  • 63:10 - 63:12
    that's the way it comes out I think it
  • 63:12 - 63:13
    works for some people it doesn't work
  • 63:13 - 63:15
    for other people I mean there's a lot of
  • 63:15 - 63:17
    joking around in the book even though
  • 63:17 - 63:19
    this is a very serious oh it made me
  • 63:19 - 63:22
    laugh out loud it seemed in that right
  • 63:22 - 63:24
    so like I wrote a book six or seven
  • 63:24 - 63:25
    years ago about the military also had
  • 63:25 - 63:28
    lots of jokes and even people who like
  • 63:28 - 63:30
    they teach that book at the US Army War
  • 63:30 - 63:33
    College Wow right something is I've I've
  • 63:33 - 63:34
    lectured on the book at West Point it's
  • 63:34 - 63:36
    like it's great but like you'll talk to
  • 63:36 - 63:38
    somebody who's like really into the
  • 63:38 - 63:39
    Abrams doctrine and wants to talk about
  • 63:39 - 63:42
    Selective Service in 1974 but they like
  • 63:42 - 63:44
    are super mad about the jokes I made
  • 63:44 - 63:48
    about ed Meese I'm like looking at me I
  • 63:48 - 63:51
    am going to make jokes about him
  • 63:51 - 63:52
    works for some people it works as
  • 63:52 - 63:54
    leavening for some people but I think it
  • 63:54 - 63:56
    also it's like iron filings in the dip
  • 63:56 - 63:58
    for other people like it just doesn't
  • 63:58 - 64:01
    acquired taste
  • 64:07 - 64:10
    speaking of acquired taste
  • 64:10 - 64:13
    I'm so good it's not speaking of iron
  • 64:13 - 64:13
    filings
  • 64:13 - 64:16
    speaking of acquired taste so as in you
  • 64:16 - 64:18
    have an 8-year old sense of humor but
  • 64:18 - 64:20
    you are very adult when it comes to your
  • 64:20 - 64:22
    beverages of choice
  • 64:22 - 64:24
    I have never interviewed anyone who got
  • 64:24 - 64:26
    so many questions about cocktails oh
  • 64:26 - 64:27
    good
  • 64:27 - 64:29
    and Justin we can quickly digress a
  • 64:29 - 64:32
    woman named Jody Masterton Masterson hey
  • 64:32 - 64:36
    Jody you are very creative she suggested
  • 64:36 - 64:38
    this is just a few of a much longer list
  • 64:38 - 64:40
    of cocktail names that you might want to
  • 64:40 - 64:43
    sip on like belly up to the bar with two
  • 64:43 - 64:47
    R's Oh oh nice
  • 64:47 - 64:57
    wet your whistle blower cosmopolitan and
  • 64:57 - 65:00
    it groans the Leske which was the last
  • 65:00 - 65:02
    nigrum Celestia oh very nice
  • 65:02 - 65:05
    Celestia but the question I have is from
  • 65:05 - 65:08
    John known that last name and he asks
  • 65:08 - 65:09
    you what is the secret to a perfect
  • 65:09 - 65:16
    martini oh I could go on you know if you
  • 65:16 - 65:20
    know drinkers who are like semi-pro that
  • 65:20 - 65:22
    when we start talking about like the one
  • 65:22 - 65:24
    drink that means a lot to us it actually
  • 65:24 - 65:27
    becomes almost a form of bullying like I
  • 65:27 - 65:28
    have to be careful the way I talk about
  • 65:28 - 65:30
    a martini because I come across as such
  • 65:30 - 65:35
    a jerk so I'll be to the point vodka is
  • 65:35 - 65:39
    not an ingredient in martinis vodka
  • 65:39 - 65:42
    vodka isn't in there gin is in there but
  • 65:42 - 65:44
    there is another thing that has to be in
  • 65:44 - 65:46
    there there has to be vermouth this
  • 65:46 - 65:48
    whole thing about like Winston Churchill
  • 65:48 - 65:50
    used to glance at the vermouth and then
  • 65:50 - 65:53
    exam and then not allow it to touch them
  • 65:53 - 65:55
    or there's an atomizer with they're
  • 65:55 - 65:57
    supposed to be vermouth dry vermouth yes
  • 65:57 - 66:00
    okay and in I think the reason that
  • 66:00 - 66:01
    people
  • 66:01 - 66:03
    afraid of putting the proper amount of
  • 66:03 - 66:04
    dry vermouth in their martinis is
  • 66:04 - 66:06
    because somebody once served them
  • 66:06 - 66:08
    something they called a martini that was
  • 66:08 - 66:11
    accidentally made with vodka vodka mixes
  • 66:11 - 66:13
    terribly with vermouth and so of course
  • 66:13 - 66:15
    you want a very dry vodka martini
  • 66:15 - 66:17
    because what you really want is just a
  • 66:17 - 66:22
    glass of vodka if you are going to drink
  • 66:22 - 66:24
    a martini it's both gin and a good
  • 66:24 - 66:26
    amount like I do like a two-to-one some
  • 66:26 - 66:29
    people do a 50/50 gin vermouth with good
  • 66:29 - 66:31
    fresh vermouth that is a bottle that you
  • 66:31 - 66:35
    didn't open in the Jurassic era it goes
  • 66:35 - 66:37
    bad it's not that alcoholic you have to
  • 66:37 - 66:38
    keep it in the fridge after you open it
  • 66:38 - 66:40
    write the data on the label very
  • 66:40 - 66:43
    important and if you like a lemon twist
  • 66:43 - 66:46
    or an olive which are the only two
  • 66:46 - 66:51
    options you if you have a lemon twist
  • 66:51 - 66:53
    you do have the option of putting a
  • 66:53 - 66:55
    little bit of orange bitters in your
  • 66:55 - 66:57
    martini which does not taste like orange
  • 66:57 - 66:59
    but actually counterbalances the lemon
  • 66:59 - 67:00
    so you don't have a fruity drink I know
  • 67:00 - 67:02
    it sounds counterintuitive but it works
  • 67:02 - 67:05
    but you can't put orange bitters in your
  • 67:05 - 67:06
    martini if you're using an olive because
  • 67:06 - 67:09
    that's weird if you do use an olive it
  • 67:09 - 67:12
    has to be a green olive and it can have
  • 67:12 - 67:13
    a pimento if you want although it's not
  • 67:13 - 67:15
    supposed to it can't have anything else
  • 67:15 - 67:19
    inside it that's not a pimento and you
  • 67:19 - 67:22
    have to stir it and it can't be more
  • 67:22 - 67:25
    than three and a half ounces any other
  • 67:25 - 67:27
    questions
  • 67:31 - 67:34
    very nice things I could say about it
  • 67:34 - 67:36
    but I'll try to stop now maybe the next
  • 67:36 - 67:38
    book yeah I could write a whole book
  • 67:38 - 67:40
    just about how about whether in my
  • 67:40 - 67:41
    opinion I think that sounds a wonderful
  • 67:41 - 67:46
    I I want to shift gears quite a bit
  • 67:46 - 67:50
    Amanda Bolton says this is an audience
  • 67:50 - 67:52
    question president Trump frequently
  • 67:52 - 67:54
    postures and media's and adversary to
  • 67:54 - 67:55
    truth and freedom how does that change
  • 67:55 - 67:58
    the way you engage with the news or how
  • 67:58 - 67:59
    you present the news that's a very good
  • 67:59 - 68:03
    question all presidents hate the media
  • 68:03 - 68:06
    and all presidents feel like they are
  • 68:06 - 68:08
    uniquely horribly treated by the media
  • 68:08 - 68:10
    and maybe they're right
  • 68:10 - 68:13
    I mean maybe as we evolved as a country
  • 68:13 - 68:16
    we're meaner to each successive
  • 68:16 - 68:18
    president maybe I mean Who am I to say
  • 68:18 - 68:20
    that they have distorted perspective but
  • 68:20 - 68:21
    there is something different going on
  • 68:21 - 68:26
    with this president that is about trying
  • 68:26 - 68:30
    to deal Ajith amis the existence of
  • 68:30 - 68:32
    journalism in the United States writ
  • 68:32 - 68:35
    large the only other politician I know
  • 68:35 - 68:38
    who's ever tried this on for size was my
  • 68:38 - 68:43
    boyfriend Spiro Agnew which is part of
  • 68:43 - 68:44
    the reason that I wanted to do that
  • 68:44 - 68:51
    bagman podcast I did because I heard so
  • 68:51 - 68:52
    I went and listened to some of his
  • 68:52 - 68:54
    speeches where I mean he's like he's
  • 68:54 - 68:56
    famous for this nattering nabobs of
  • 68:56 - 68:57
    negativism
  • 68:57 - 69:00
    his real speeches where he attacked the
  • 69:00 - 69:02
    press and where he attacked the Justice
  • 69:02 - 69:04
    Department and the prosecutors who were
  • 69:04 - 69:06
    investigating him were like trump 1.0
  • 69:06 - 69:10
    really really and it was seen at the
  • 69:10 - 69:13
    time as profoundly dangerous and the way
  • 69:13 - 69:16
    that he attacked the media was
  • 69:16 - 69:21
    particularly sort of had a had a barely
  • 69:21 - 69:24
    camouflaged anti-semitic implication
  • 69:24 - 69:26
    that he would talk about the media and
  • 69:26 - 69:29
    the elites in a way that really he was
  • 69:29 - 69:30
    making it quite clear that it was about
  • 69:30 - 69:32
    the Jews and the Jews controlling
  • 69:32 - 69:33
    everything and the Jews being out to get
  • 69:33 - 69:36
    him and Agnew after he resigned the vice
  • 69:36 - 69:38
    presidency ultimately would go on to be
  • 69:38 - 69:40
    basically an international anti-semite
  • 69:40 - 69:43
    for hire where he would
  • 69:43 - 69:46
    in solicit income for an income from
  • 69:46 - 69:48
    foreign governments that wanted to stir
  • 69:48 - 69:50
    up anger against American Jews literally
  • 69:50 - 69:53
    that's what he did to make money and so
  • 69:53 - 69:56
    I feel like Agnew's ghost helps us
  • 69:56 - 70:01
    understand how malignant this is and how
  • 70:01 - 70:08
    close it is to really really dark even
  • 70:08 - 70:13
    fistic aims and I also can see that it's
  • 70:13 - 70:14
    an offshoot of what other presidents
  • 70:14 - 70:15
    have done in terms of their complaining
  • 70:15 - 70:17
    and so recognizing that this could
  • 70:17 - 70:22
    curdle very badly and it's it's it edges
  • 70:22 - 70:24
    up against that and I see that I also
  • 70:24 - 70:27
    feel like the solution to it is not to
  • 70:27 - 70:30
    get as serious about it but rather to
  • 70:30 - 70:35
    try to brush it off a little bit and in
  • 70:35 - 70:38
    my own life part of what it means is
  • 70:38 - 70:40
    that I sort of refused to play these
  • 70:40 - 70:42
    games where they try to turn us in the
  • 70:42 - 70:44
    media against each other I know that
  • 70:44 - 70:46
    people have different views about how
  • 70:46 - 70:48
    best to approach this presidency and how
  • 70:48 - 70:49
    best to approach journalism and some
  • 70:49 - 70:51
    people think cable news is evil and some
  • 70:51 - 70:53
    people are mad at the New York Times and
  • 70:53 - 70:55
    some people think that the you know Jeff
  • 70:55 - 70:56
    Bezos iteration of the Washington Post
  • 70:56 - 70:58
    means a thing and some people really
  • 70:58 - 71:00
    hate Fox News even the news side of Fox
  • 71:00 - 71:04
    News inside and I I feel like at this
  • 71:04 - 71:07
    point we're if we're in the if we're in
  • 71:07 - 71:09
    the news business and we're in the
  • 71:09 - 71:10
    journalism business then we are all on
  • 71:10 - 71:12
    the same side and even the people who
  • 71:12 - 71:19
    hate me I will love back and so it's a
  • 71:19 - 71:20
    it's I mean
  • 71:20 - 71:23
    if is everybody here subscribed to their
  • 71:23 - 71:25
    local public radio station do you pay
  • 71:25 - 71:28
    money if you're look pay money to your
  • 71:28 - 71:29
    local public radio station you have a
  • 71:29 - 71:31
    great public radio here you really do
  • 71:31 - 71:33
    and it needs and to support local
  • 71:33 - 71:35
    reporting the best thing you can do for
  • 71:35 - 71:37
    journalism in your country I don't know
  • 71:37 - 71:38
    what's going on at Chicago unless
  • 71:38 - 71:40
    they're Chicago reporters reporting it
  • 71:40 - 71:42
    in a way that I can pick up in New York
  • 71:42 - 71:43
    and make into a national story right I
  • 71:43 - 71:45
    wouldn't have took I wouldn't have had
  • 71:45 - 71:46
    the Flint water story had there not been
  • 71:46 - 71:48
    local reporters working in Michigan and
  • 71:48 - 71:50
    Clinton telling that
  • 71:50 - 71:53
    like you can't survive with the national
  • 71:53 - 71:54
    media even if it's a great national
  • 71:54 - 71:56
    media that you like have to support
  • 71:56 - 71:59
    local local journalism and you need to
  • 71:59 - 72:01
    support journalism as a craft I don't
  • 72:01 - 72:04
    know if in if your kid or if you've got
  • 72:04 - 72:07
    kids or grandkids who are in middle
  • 72:07 - 72:09
    school and high school right now but do
  • 72:09 - 72:12
    you know if at the middle school or high
  • 72:12 - 72:15
    school that attends to your family do
  • 72:15 - 72:17
    you know if they've got a student paper
  • 72:17 - 72:20
    if they don't have a student paper would
  • 72:20 - 72:21
    you consider getting together with some
  • 72:21 - 72:24
    of your friends and endowing one if
  • 72:24 - 72:26
    they're not if they've got that would
  • 72:26 - 72:30
    you consider endowing proto television
  • 72:30 - 72:33
    journalism podcast for the jet for the
  • 72:33 - 72:35
    journalism class and the 6th grade at
  • 72:35 - 72:36
    your local middle school I mean we need
  • 72:36 - 72:39
    to grow investigative reporters by the
  • 72:39 - 72:41
    bushel in this country for the sake of
  • 72:41 - 72:45
    our democracy we were we were talking
  • 72:45 - 72:48
    backstage and I get nutrients need two
  • 72:48 - 72:50
    more questions in concern now I gotta
  • 72:50 - 72:51
    let you go I'm sorry I've talked so long
  • 72:51 - 72:55
    you're amazing no apologies this is kind
  • 72:55 - 72:57
    of a great time for journalism we were
  • 72:57 - 72:59
    talking about that your book which not
  • 72:59 - 73:02
    only paints this incredible picture of
  • 73:02 - 73:04
    the the the threat of the oil and gas
  • 73:04 - 73:06
    industry and why we need to think about
  • 73:06 - 73:09
    this and become closer to it but the
  • 73:09 - 73:10
    number of excellent reporters
  • 73:10 - 73:12
    represented in it whose work you bring
  • 73:12 - 73:14
    back to life if we feel like we don't
  • 73:14 - 73:16
    have access to useful information that's
  • 73:16 - 73:18
    really not the case there's so many
  • 73:18 - 73:21
    amazing reporters we were talking in
  • 73:21 - 73:23
    backstage about she said by Jody Kanter
  • 73:23 - 73:25
    Megan Chui who are joining us next
  • 73:25 - 73:27
    Tuesday I'm very excited and their book
  • 73:27 - 73:30
    and then Ronin Pharaohs catch and kill
  • 73:30 - 73:32
    now these are two books that talk about
  • 73:32 - 73:35
    the media in different ways she said is
  • 73:35 - 73:37
    about the the force of the New York
  • 73:37 - 73:39
    Times and how that helped them carry
  • 73:39 - 73:41
    that investigation for it gave them a
  • 73:41 - 73:43
    certain credibility pharaoh has a
  • 73:43 - 73:45
    different experience he says the media
  • 73:45 - 73:49
    company MSNBC NBC that he worked with in
  • 73:49 - 73:52
    stymied him tried to shut down and I'm
  • 73:52 - 73:55
    wondering given that there are both
  • 73:55 - 73:57
    books about me too
  • 73:57 - 73:59
    and given that you've just thought a lot
  • 73:59 - 74:02
    about corporate responsibility visa vie
  • 74:02 - 74:06
    the oil gas industry and the ways in
  • 74:06 - 74:08
    which governance can get twisted with
  • 74:08 - 74:09
    sort of trying to serve shareholder
  • 74:09 - 74:11
    values mm-hmm what do you think the role
  • 74:11 - 74:14
    of corporate responsibility is in
  • 74:14 - 74:20
    relationship to me to boy I mean first
  • 74:20 - 74:22
    of all I think that media companies are
  • 74:22 - 74:25
    companies and companies need to be
  • 74:25 - 74:29
    internally improving on these issues
  • 74:29 - 74:31
    right that the ways of doing business in
  • 74:31 - 74:33
    the media business and in lots of other
  • 74:33 - 74:36
    big business have to change and when
  • 74:36 - 74:38
    there is a reckoning in these things the
  • 74:38 - 74:39
    companies need to recognize that
  • 74:39 - 74:41
    evolution and not resistance is the way
  • 74:41 - 74:45
    to deal with those things and so I think
  • 74:45 - 74:48
    first and foremost media companies need
  • 74:48 - 74:49
    to be seen as companies that need to do
  • 74:49 - 74:52
    their own work there in terms of the
  • 74:52 - 74:55
    reporting around me to stuff I mean the
  • 74:55 - 74:57
    to the extent that there are gatekeepers
  • 74:57 - 74:59
    for this kind of stuff if the
  • 74:59 - 75:01
    gatekeepers are compromised the stories
  • 75:01 - 75:02
    aren't going to get out but that just
  • 75:02 - 75:05
    creates I mean Ronan's book right as far
  • 75:05 - 75:09
    as I understand it is a story that he
  • 75:09 - 75:11
    was chasing which is about Weinstein and
  • 75:11 - 75:12
    then the other story that he discovered
  • 75:12 - 75:15
    along the way when he started to
  • 75:15 - 75:17
    investigate what was keeping him from
  • 75:17 - 75:19
    getting the story about Weinstein and
  • 75:19 - 75:22
    the proper outcome of that process is
  • 75:22 - 75:24
    that he is able in the end to tell both
  • 75:24 - 75:26
    stories one of those stories who want to
  • 75:26 - 75:28
    pull out surprised for and one of them
  • 75:28 - 75:29
    he's about to have a number one
  • 75:29 - 75:30
    best-selling book that's gonna knock me
  • 75:30 - 75:35
    off the charts and so I mean I think
  • 75:35 - 75:38
    I've read Megan and Jodi's book I've not
  • 75:38 - 75:40
    read Megan Ronan's book cause it's not
  • 75:40 - 75:44
    out but I one of the things that I am
  • 75:44 - 75:48
    incredibly buoyed by for both of them is
  • 75:48 - 75:50
    that I think those books are gonna make
  • 75:50 - 75:52
    people who read them in college decide
  • 75:52 - 75:54
    to go to journalism school because it is
  • 75:54 - 75:57
    about the nobility and bravery and civic
  • 75:57 - 75:59
    mindedness and rigor of journalism done
  • 75:59 - 76:02
    well and it's as exciting as hell I mean
  • 76:02 - 76:06
    it really really is and so that's what
  • 76:06 - 76:08
    welcoming
  • 76:09 - 76:12
    so speaking of nobility and bravery and
  • 76:12 - 76:14
    civic mindedness and this is the last
  • 76:14 - 76:19
    question I hate love you to stay for an
  • 76:19 - 76:22
    hour way back in 2010 in regard to fake
  • 76:22 - 76:24
    politics and the dearth of political
  • 76:24 - 76:26
    facts you said on your show let's argue
  • 76:26 - 76:29
    let's have the great American debate
  • 76:29 - 76:30
    about the role of government and the
  • 76:30 - 76:33
    best policies for the country it's fun
  • 76:33 - 76:36
    it's citizenship its activism it makes
  • 76:36 - 76:37
    the country better when we have those
  • 76:37 - 76:39
    debates and your country needs you it
  • 76:39 - 76:43
    needs all of you it needs all of us so
  • 76:43 - 76:45
    if we armed with one of your fabulous
  • 76:45 - 76:49
    martinis take those hard marching orders
  • 76:49 - 76:51
    how do we leave tonight and start that
  • 76:51 - 76:54
    debate Wow
  • 76:54 - 76:59
    I would I would say a couple of things I
  • 76:59 - 77:03
    do I do I am not a particularly green
  • 77:03 - 77:05
    person like I don't come from an
  • 77:05 - 77:07
    environmental background my partner's
  • 77:07 - 77:09
    very green and like kind of tried to
  • 77:09 - 77:11
    make our lives more sustainable and
  • 77:11 - 77:12
    everything and I just I'm not really
  • 77:12 - 77:14
    wired that way and I'm trying to get
  • 77:14 - 77:15
    better having written this book about
  • 77:15 - 77:18
    the oil and gas industry and the way it
  • 77:18 - 77:21
    is corrosive toward our ability to make
  • 77:21 - 77:24
    good democratic decisions now on the way
  • 77:24 - 77:27
    toward the climate apocalypse you think
  • 77:27 - 77:29
    that would motivate me to be like you
  • 77:29 - 77:32
    know like taking a sailboat everywhere
  • 77:32 - 77:35
    and I'm I'm not I'm intellectually there
  • 77:35 - 77:37
    but my life hasn't changed to make those
  • 77:37 - 77:39
    accounts and so I feel you know
  • 77:39 - 77:41
    embarrassed about that and humble about
  • 77:41 - 77:43
    that but I also feel like it's worth
  • 77:43 - 77:47
    being real about that and we don't we're
  • 77:47 - 77:48
    not all going to become full-time
  • 77:48 - 77:52
    activists and we're not all going to run
  • 77:52 - 77:54
    for office and we're not all going to
  • 77:54 - 77:58
    lead a movement but we can all do
  • 77:58 - 78:01
    something more than we are already doing
  • 78:01 - 78:04
    and if
  • 78:04 - 78:08
    you are incredibly motivated by the
  • 78:08 - 78:11
    president if you have if you feel like
  • 78:11 - 78:13
    president Trump is a motivating force
  • 78:13 - 78:15
    like nothing you've ever had in your
  • 78:15 - 78:19
    life the what in your life shows that if
  • 78:19 - 78:23
    you want him out of office or if your
  • 78:23 - 78:25
    incredible supporter of President Trump
  • 78:25 - 78:26
    and you really want him to stay in
  • 78:26 - 78:28
    office what are you doing to make that
  • 78:28 - 78:32
    happen this is a time when I think we
  • 78:32 - 78:34
    have all started to realize that you
  • 78:34 - 78:36
    can't necessarily know what the thing is
  • 78:36 - 78:39
    that's gonna make the difference in the
  • 78:39 - 78:39
    world
  • 78:39 - 78:41
    you can't know what's gonna inspire
  • 78:41 - 78:44
    people right I mean these viral moments
  • 78:44 - 78:46
    that spread on social media of regular
  • 78:46 - 78:48
    people doing things on the middle of a
  • 78:48 - 78:49
    day when they woke up that morning and
  • 78:49 - 78:50
    thought it was gonna be a day like no
  • 78:50 - 78:52
    other and they ended up doing something
  • 78:52 - 78:53
    that changed the conversation of the
  • 78:53 - 78:55
    country of 300 million people for a week
  • 78:55 - 78:58
    you know we're in a position right now
  • 78:58 - 79:00
    where our ability as individual citizens
  • 79:00 - 79:03
    to do stuff gives us a new form of
  • 79:03 - 79:06
    responsibility and to the extent that
  • 79:06 - 79:09
    the climate matters to you are you doing
  • 79:09 - 79:11
    other kind of political work and can you
  • 79:11 - 79:13
    factor climate into that to the extent
  • 79:13 - 79:14
    that the president matters to you or
  • 79:14 - 79:16
    this next election matters to you what
  • 79:16 - 79:18
    are you doing not just to follow it on
  • 79:18 - 79:21
    TV but to actually participate try to
  • 79:21 - 79:22
    try as much as you can to change the
  • 79:22 - 79:23
    outcome and the way that you want it to
  • 79:23 - 79:28
    go I just think this is just close are
  • 79:28 - 79:31
    saying this having all of you guys here
  • 79:31 - 79:34
    in person to me is the reason I was so
  • 79:34 - 79:35
    like nervous and jittery at the
  • 79:35 - 79:37
    beginning is because we spend all of our
  • 79:37 - 79:40
    times with our screens on right I mean
  • 79:40 - 79:42
    you guys see me behind the TV screen I
  • 79:42 - 79:44
    know but we also spend all of our times
  • 79:44 - 79:45
    with our through all of our time with
  • 79:45 - 79:46
    our phones and with our computer screens
  • 79:46 - 79:48
    and that's so much the way that we
  • 79:48 - 79:50
    understand the mediated world right now
  • 79:50 - 79:53
    but none of you are doing that right now
  • 79:53 - 79:54
    you're all here in person you came out
  • 79:54 - 79:58
    here bodily to see me in person to be
  • 79:58 - 80:00
    among all of these other thousands of
  • 80:00 - 80:02
    you who came out to do this in person to
  • 80:02 - 80:05
    be at a live event to imbibe words to
  • 80:05 - 80:07
    hear a conversation to have new thoughts
  • 80:07 - 80:08
    and to be around your fellow man while
  • 80:08 - 80:10
    doing it and that is something that you
  • 80:10 - 80:12
    don't have to do but you did it and
  • 80:12 - 80:14
    you're here and it means the world to me
  • 80:14 - 80:16
    and to me
  • 80:16 - 80:18
    when we are willing to show up someplace
  • 80:18 - 80:20
    when we were actually willing to bodily
  • 80:20 - 80:23
    be there it's transformative not only
  • 80:23 - 80:25
    potentially for the world but for us and
  • 80:25 - 80:29
    so I just it means a lot for me to see
  • 80:29 - 80:30
    you guys right now and I would just say
  • 80:30 - 80:32
    to do your own inventory in terms of
  • 80:32 - 80:34
    what matters to you and what you can
  • 80:34 - 80:35
    maximize in your life in terms of what
  • 80:35 - 80:38
    you're doing to bring that about
  • 80:43 - 80:47
    what an awesome love to end on a chill
  • 80:47 - 80:48
    that Oh
  • 80:48 - 80:52
    [Applause]
  • 80:52 - 80:58
    I'm sorry about your dating thing it was
  • 80:58 - 80:59
    a good news a good sign
  • 80:59 - 81:09
    [Applause]
  • 81:10 - 81:12
    you
Title:
Rachel Maddow in Conversation
Description:

These are YouTube automatic English captions, reuploaded in revision 1, and being edited for possible errors

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Video Language:
English
Duration:
01:21:17

Metadata: Geo subtitles

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