Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis
-
0:08 - 0:12When #MeToo went viral last year,
-
0:12 - 0:14it pulled back the curtain
to reveal a problem -
0:14 - 0:18that had really been hiding
in plain sight. -
0:18 - 0:21We weren't shocked or surprised
to learn that information - -
0:21 - 0:23these were not new statistics.
-
0:24 - 0:28What it really exposed was
our lack of action, -
0:28 - 0:31our inadequacy at responding.
-
0:32 - 0:36#MeToo collected the stories,
it gave them faces and names, -
0:36 - 0:39and it brought them forward
and it put them in front of us -
0:39 - 0:41and it begged a new question.
-
0:41 - 0:45It said, Are we going to do
something about this? -
0:46 - 0:49Which is why, I think,
as a lawyer, educator and trainer, -
0:49 - 0:54the question I've been asked the most
often in the last several months is, -
0:54 - 0:56"So what do we do now?"
-
0:56 - 1:01What do we do now?
-
1:01 - 1:06Now, in all of my heads, I should be able
to rattle off a whole list of ideas, -
1:06 - 1:08but the first time somebody
posed that question to me, -
1:08 - 1:11I didn't give any great policy insights.
-
1:11 - 1:14The first time somebody asked
the question, I gave my gut reaction, -
1:14 - 1:17the first thing that popped
into my head, and I said, -
1:17 - 1:20"I think we need
to keep talking about it." -
1:20 - 1:23And I kind of looked back
on that answer, and I thought, -
1:23 - 1:26"Isn't that a little overly simplistic?"
-
1:27 - 1:31Over the last several months, though,
I've had a lot of conversations -
1:31 - 1:34in a variety of contexts,
formal and informal, -
1:34 - 1:36with all kinds of people,
-
1:36 - 1:38and I'm sensing that people
are really uncomfortable. -
1:38 - 1:42I keep getting the same comments,
hearing the same kinds of questions. -
1:42 - 1:46People are saying things like,
What about hugs? Are hugs okay? -
1:46 - 1:51Should I open my office door?
Is it bad to have closed-door meetings? -
1:51 - 1:55I get nervous when I give
a coworker a compliment. -
1:55 - 1:59And everybody wants to talk
about the spectrum. -
1:59 - 2:01Because it's a spectrum, right?
-
2:01 - 2:04Some conduct is worse than others.
-
2:04 - 2:06It has led me to the conclusion
-
2:06 - 2:10that #MeToo has presented us
an opportunity for a reckoning, -
2:10 - 2:13but we seem really anxious
to get to some kind of reconciliation. -
2:13 - 2:19Is there some new set of rules
we can apply here so we can just move on? -
2:19 - 2:22I think we can get
from reckoning to reconciliation, -
2:22 - 2:27but not until we change this conversation.
-
2:27 - 2:30Luckily, as any good TED speaker should,
-
2:30 - 2:34I have come equipped with five steps
to changing the conversation. -
2:34 - 2:36(Laughter)
-
2:36 - 2:42So, step one, we are going
to stop training and start talking. -
2:42 - 2:48Yes, I came to advocate that we stop
doing sexual harassment training. -
2:48 - 2:52And yes, I still feel like the lawyers
and the HR people in the room -
2:52 - 2:54
are a little nervous about that. -
2:54 - 2:57In order to get us all on the same page,
-
2:57 - 3:03I decided that we should do just a quick
sexual harassment training in 30 seconds. -
3:03 - 3:07In order to do that, I dusted off
an old PowerPoint presentation -
3:07 - 3:10that I gave probably 15 years ago
about this topic. -
3:10 - 3:11And here we go.
-
3:11 - 3:14Sexual harassment training in 30 seconds.
-
3:14 - 3:15There are two types.
-
3:15 - 3:18It takes a lot of words
to explain those two types, -
3:18 - 3:20especially the second type.
-
3:20 - 3:23Even the courts
aren't entirely sure what it is - -
3:23 - 3:26they just know that bullying,
that's not enough. -
3:26 - 3:29But don't worry,
this is just about what's illegal. -
3:29 - 3:32Your employer can set a much higher bar -
-
3:32 - 3:35cue an inappropriate,
awkwardly acted video -
3:35 - 3:38about a weird back rub in the copy room,
-
3:38 - 3:39(Laughter)
-
3:39 - 3:43a reminder that you should call HR
if you have any questions. -
3:43 - 3:47Don't forget supervisors
can be individually liable - -
3:47 - 3:49don't be creepy and seen.
-
3:49 - 3:54(Applause)(Screaming)
-
3:57 - 3:59Sexual harassment training
hasn't changed a lot -
3:59 - 4:02in the last several decades.
-
4:02 - 4:06Now you can do it all online
without ever seeing another person. -
4:06 - 4:08(Laughter)
-
4:08 - 4:11There have been some strives to change it,
-
4:11 - 4:14but the problem
with sexual harassment training -
4:14 - 4:17is that it is rooted in risk prevention.
-
4:17 - 4:21Sexual harassment training exists
because the courts said, -
4:21 - 4:27"Hey employers, if you do this thing,
you can avoid liability if it happens." -
4:27 - 4:32Thus, sexual harassment training
was born of litigation, -
4:32 - 4:35and it has been raised by lawyers.
-
4:35 - 4:38Now hopefully, for the sake
of my three children, -
4:38 - 4:41being raised by lawers
is not the worst possible unbringing. -
4:41 - 4:43(Laughter)
-
4:43 - 4:48Nevertheless, it is time
for sexual harassment training -
4:48 - 4:51to move on out of the house of compliance
-
4:51 - 4:55because conversation is risky.
-
4:55 - 4:59We will not get from reckoning
to reconciliation -
4:59 - 5:02unless we are willing
to cross a path of risk. -
5:02 - 5:06So, step two, we need to take some risks.
-
5:06 - 5:09Conversation is risky.
-
5:09 - 5:11One of the risks we need to take
-
5:11 - 5:14is we need to be willing
to admit our past mistakes. -
5:14 - 5:17We haven't always engaged
exactly right in this conversation, -
5:17 - 5:19and we've got to be willing to own that.
-
5:19 - 5:22In organizations,
if leaders can step up and say, -
5:22 - 5:25"You know, I used
to think about this this way, -
5:25 - 5:27but now I think about it differently."
-
5:27 - 5:31That opens the door
for other people to do the same. -
5:31 - 5:34But talking about things
we've gotten wrong is scary, -
5:34 - 5:36so I'll go first.
-
5:36 - 5:37This is me.
-
5:37 - 5:39I am the curly-haired one in the back.
-
5:39 - 5:43The much younger, much cuter,
much blonder girl is my little sister, -
5:43 - 5:47and this is our horse -
his name is Jim. -
5:47 - 5:51I loved my Montana upbringing,
and I loved that girl - -
5:51 - 5:52she was strong and independent -
-
5:52 - 5:55but there were a lot of things
that she did not know. -
5:55 - 5:56One of them
-
5:56 - 6:00is that if you would've asked me then
or for years afterwards, -
6:00 - 6:01if I was a feminist,
-
6:01 - 6:05I would've probably told you "No," right?
-
6:05 - 6:11But then I listened and I lived
and I learned, and my perspective shifted. -
6:11 - 6:15I recognized that there was room
at the equality table for all of us, -
6:15 - 6:17even those of us
who could drive a stick shift -
6:17 - 6:20and saddle a horse and slap a pig.
-
6:20 - 6:22(Laughter)
-
6:22 - 6:23We are all on a journey,
-
6:23 - 6:26and we have to be willing
to own our mistakes. -
6:26 - 6:28The flip side of that, of course,
-
6:28 - 6:31is that we have to be open
to other people's journeys too, -
6:31 - 6:33to letting them make mistakes.
-
6:33 - 6:36If every time in this conversation
-
6:36 - 6:38we think someone
is getting something wrong, -
6:38 - 6:42our reaction is to gather
our swarm of little blue birdies -
6:42 - 6:45and come peck them
to death on the Internet, -
6:45 - 6:48we're not going to invite people
into the conversation; -
6:48 - 6:51we're going to push them away.
-
6:51 - 6:53(Applause)
-
6:57 - 7:03Step three, we've made some time,
we've decided to take some risks, -
7:03 - 7:04What do we talk about instead?
-
7:04 - 7:09We need to be talking about power,
permission, and interruption. -
7:09 - 7:11When we think about
the news stories that we've seen -
7:11 - 7:14with examples of sexual harassment
and sexual violence, -
7:14 - 7:16the power is easy to spot.
-
7:16 - 7:20The people in the news
are wealthy politicians. -
7:20 - 7:23They're media moguls
who have control and power, -
7:23 - 7:25not only of their own contexts,
-
7:25 - 7:28but of the law and culture
that the rest of the consume. -
7:29 - 7:34But you don't have to be a media mogul
or a wealthy politician to have power. -
7:34 - 7:37Power can exist in a community -
-
7:37 - 7:40it can be simply based on having
information somebody doesn't have, -
7:40 - 7:43control over someone's pay;
-
7:43 - 7:45it can be speaking a language.
-
7:45 - 7:50We need to start identifying the power
in our contexts and who holds it, -
7:50 - 7:54and whether we hold some and of what kind.
-
7:54 - 7:57Because sexual violence thrives
-
7:57 - 8:02when bad intentions
meet power, opportunity, -
8:02 - 8:04and a low risk of accountability.
-
8:05 - 8:08We need to identify and talk about power.
-
8:08 - 8:12Instead, our conversations
always seem to go to this place -
8:12 - 8:14of romance gone wrong -
-
8:14 - 8:18it's an unhappy accident,
a mistaken communication. -
8:19 - 8:21I think there's something
more sinister going on -
8:21 - 8:24in almost all of the stories we hear.
-
8:24 - 8:27But even if sometimes
the issue is miscommunication, -
8:27 - 8:30then why aren't we talking
about permission? -
8:30 - 8:33We're not talking about permission
in sex education with our kids, -
8:33 - 8:36and we're not talking about it
in training in our workplaces. -
8:36 - 8:37And here in stoic Minnesota,
-
8:37 - 8:40I'm not sure we're talking about it
with each other either. -
8:40 - 8:42We need to talk about permission.
-
8:42 - 8:44When should we be asking for it?
-
8:44 - 8:46How do we ask for it?
-
8:46 - 8:48And how do we deny it?
-
8:48 - 8:51(Applause)
-
8:53 - 8:56We also need to talk about interruption -
-
8:56 - 8:58it does not take long to find a bystander
-
8:58 - 9:00who didn't know what to do or what to say
-
9:00 - 9:02or simply chose not to.
-
9:02 - 9:06Why is it so much easier
when our colleague says, -
9:06 - 9:09"You know, Bob makes me
feel really uncomfortable," -
9:09 - 9:13that our go-to response
is always "That's just Bob." -
9:13 - 9:17Why is it so hard to say,
"How so?" "Are you OK?" -
9:17 - 9:19"Is there anything I can do?"
-
9:19 - 9:24We need to talk about power,
permission, and interruption. -
9:25 - 9:30And then we need people, step four,
to show up for the conversation. -
9:30 - 9:32I give a lot of talks
about these kinds of things, -
9:32 - 9:36and I often find myself staring out
at a sea of women's faces. -
9:36 - 9:39I did a little what we call "lawyer math"
-
9:39 - 9:41over the last couple
of presentations I've given -
9:41 - 9:44to just kind of see
what the statistics were, -
9:44 - 9:46and I counted up that less than 10%
-
9:46 - 9:50of the people coming to a talk with #MeToo
or sexual harassment in the title -
9:50 - 9:52were men.
-
9:52 - 9:55Yet at the same time,
I kept getting this question, -
9:55 - 9:57usually from women at the talks:
-
9:57 - 10:00"What about all the really
good men in my office? -
10:00 - 10:04I work with some really good men,
and they want to do something. -
10:04 - 10:07They feel awkward.
How can I help them?" -
10:07 - 10:09My answer is pretty simple:
-
10:09 - 10:11participate.
-
10:11 - 10:15Men, we need you to show up
for this conversation. -
10:16 - 10:19You know what? Scratch that.
-
10:19 - 10:23You need you to show up
for this conversation. -
10:23 - 10:27Three percent of men will experience
a rape or attempted rape - -
10:27 - 10:30that's just the ones who are reported.
-
10:30 - 10:33Many of us in this room
may never experience sexual violence; -
10:33 - 10:37most of us will never
commit sexual violence. -
10:37 - 10:39But it is going to impact all of us.
-
10:39 - 10:44It's impacting us all right now and every
conversation we have in the workplace. -
10:45 - 10:51So, my challenge, my hope,
is that when men are talking -
10:51 - 10:55about whether they should open the door
of their offices to be safe, -
10:55 - 10:57go ahead and open the door.
-
10:57 - 11:01But can you also open your eyes
and hearts and minds -
11:01 - 11:07to the stories that #MeToo is telling us
and the reality of those stories? -
11:08 - 11:12Step five: we have got
to retire this spectrum. -
11:12 - 11:14Because we're talking
about this all the time, -
11:14 - 11:17on one hand, here's the stuff
that's not a big deal, -
11:17 - 11:19you should probably get over it;
-
11:19 - 11:21down here is the stuff
that's really horrifying - -
11:21 - 11:23it's pretty awful.
-
11:23 - 11:25We're actually not going to talk
about the horrifying stuff -
11:25 - 11:26pretty much ever;
-
11:26 - 11:30we're going to really focus
on this get-over-it side, -
11:30 - 11:32especially at work and in our training.
-
11:32 - 11:34We may not even be
on the get-over-it side, -
11:34 - 11:37because when we're talking
about hugs and compliments, -
11:37 - 11:39I don't even think
they're on the spectrum. -
11:39 - 11:42I love hugs and compliments.
They're great. -
11:42 - 11:46The problem with hugs and compliments
is only when they're misused, -
11:46 - 11:50when they're used to demean
instead of to lift up. -
11:50 - 11:53But we spend so much time
on that end of the spectrum -
11:53 - 11:56that we don't have time
to dig into what's really going on, -
11:56 - 11:59and we don't want to believe
in the horrifying end, anyway. -
11:59 - 12:03We want to peel everything out of that
and categorize it over here. -
12:03 - 12:07So, here's the thing.
It's not a spectrum. -
12:07 - 12:08It's a system.
-
12:08 - 12:12And until we start getting comfortable
with the idea that it might be messy -
12:12 - 12:17to talk about its interconnectivity,
about its intricacies, -
12:17 - 12:19then we will not dismantle it,
-
12:19 - 12:23and we need to dismantle the system.
-
12:24 - 12:26In education, we have a concept
we talk about sometimes, -
12:26 - 12:29called "the compelling why."
-
12:29 - 12:32The idea is that if we know
why we're doing something, -
12:32 - 12:34we'll be better at it,
we'll learn it better, -
12:34 - 12:36we'll understand it more.
-
12:36 - 12:41We need to change
why we're having this conversation. -
12:41 - 12:44We can't be having it
to avoid getting sued; -
12:44 - 12:45we've got to have a better reason.
-
12:45 - 12:47And trying to come up with better reasons,
-
12:47 - 12:50we've come up with things like,
"It's better for a bottom line. -
12:50 - 12:52There's a business case for it -
-
12:52 - 12:55if we really make the workplace
safer and better, -
12:55 - 12:58we'll have a better workforce,
we'll produce more work." -
12:58 - 13:00And that's a better reason,
-
13:00 - 13:03but I still don't think it's "the" reason.
-
13:04 - 13:09I want to tell you my reason for talking
about sexual assault and harassment - -
13:09 - 13:11my compelling why.
-
13:11 - 13:14I have a #MeToo story to tell you.
-
13:14 - 13:17My #MeToo story doesn't belong to me.
-
13:17 - 13:18This is Suzie.
-
13:19 - 13:22I met Suzie when I fell in love
with her big brother, -
13:22 - 13:25and we became family
when I married him. -
13:25 - 13:28By the time I'd joined the Hanson family,
-
13:28 - 13:31Suzie had already been sexually assaulted.
-
13:31 - 13:33I never really talked to her
about it very much; -
13:33 - 13:36I didn't know a lot about what happened.
-
13:36 - 13:39What I did know will sound
very familiar to you: -
13:39 - 13:42she was sexually assaulted
at work, at her part-time job, -
13:42 - 13:44by someone with authority.
-
13:44 - 13:48There were people who could
intervene and interrupt - who didn't. -
13:48 - 13:51Mostly, everyone wanted her
to get over it and move on. -
13:51 - 13:55There was a lawsuit, and she couldn't
really talk about it, anyway. -
13:55 - 13:57So, we never really talked about it.
-
13:58 - 14:02I did notice that Suzie was trying
really hard to do all of those things, -
14:02 - 14:03to get over it and move on,
-
14:03 - 14:05but even in her happiest time,
-
14:05 - 14:10she would carry with her a cloud
of shame and fear and anger. -
14:10 - 14:13I would learn later
that what was in that cloud -
14:13 - 14:17were the symptoms
of post-traumatic stress disorder. -
14:18 - 14:24Suzie and I would have one conversation
that I recall so clearly about it. -
14:26 - 14:28I knew she was in therapy, finally,
-
14:28 - 14:32it was the summer of 2000,
and I asked her, "How's it going?" -
14:32 - 14:37And she said, "It's going pretty well."
She said, "It's kind of hard, though." -
14:37 - 14:38And I said, "Why?"
-
14:38 - 14:40And she said,
-
14:40 - 14:45"My therapist wants me to tell
the whole story of what happened to me. -
14:45 - 14:48I've never told the whole story."
-
14:49 - 14:50I got kind of scared and nervous.
-
14:50 - 14:53I wasn't sure I wanted
to hear the whole story - -
14:53 - 14:55we don't want to hear
the horrifying things. -
14:55 - 14:57And I said, "Why not?"
-
14:57 - 15:00And she said, "I'm just so scared."
-
15:01 - 15:04I would never hear Suzie's story.
-
15:04 - 15:07I would never talk to her about it.
-
15:07 - 15:12She would reveal more horrifying details
to her therapist and to her parents, -
15:13 - 15:15and then she would die by suicide.
-
15:15 - 15:19We would lose her
to her post-traumatic stress disorder. -
15:21 - 15:24We would never talk about it.
-
15:27 - 15:30Suzie's death was
a defining moment in my life, -
15:30 - 15:32not just for my own grief
-
15:32 - 15:34but also because it gave me
the front-row seat -
15:34 - 15:39for the devastation of some of the people
I loved the most in the world. -
15:39 - 15:44What I've learned as the years have past
is that that one act of violence, -
15:44 - 15:48it spread the consequences
over so many people. -
15:48 - 15:52This is not just about perpetrators
and victims of sexual violence; -
15:52 - 15:55it is about all of us.
-
15:55 - 15:57The impacts were huge.
-
15:57 - 15:59There were even consequences
for my children, -
15:59 - 16:01and they weren't even born yet.
-
16:04 - 16:05It's been 18 years,
-
16:05 - 16:11and our lives are full
of laughter and life and fun, -
16:12 - 16:15but I have heard her voice
and seen her story -
16:15 - 16:19in the voices of clients
and students and #MeToo, -
16:21 - 16:25and I've often wondered
why the cycle never changes. -
16:25 - 16:29It's been kind of depressing
that I see the same thing, -
16:29 - 16:34the same circle of shame
and silence, again and again. -
16:35 - 16:38And then, last year,
-
16:39 - 16:41I got kind of optimistic.
-
16:41 - 16:44It seems sort of strange to think
-
16:44 - 16:47that #MeToo might have made
anyone optimistic, -
16:49 - 16:50but it did.
-
16:50 - 16:53And I realized that the reason
that was making me optimistic -
16:53 - 16:57is because when the movement
gathered these stories together -
16:57 - 17:00and it set them out there in front of us
-
17:00 - 17:03and it said, "Are you going
to do anything about this?" -
17:03 - 17:05we said, "Yes!"
-
17:05 - 17:07We said, "Time's up!"
-
17:07 - 17:09We said, "Enough is enough."
-
17:09 - 17:13We started asking people like me,
"What do we do now?" -
17:13 - 17:14And the energy of people I talked to,
-
17:14 - 17:17even though they know
they're not getting it right -
17:17 - 17:19and even though they know it's messy,
-
17:19 - 17:23the energy of the people I talk to is
"Let's do something about this; -
17:23 - 17:25it is impacting all of us."
-
17:26 - 17:30So, my charge to you is,
"Yeah, let's keep going." -
17:30 - 17:32Let's change this conversation:
-
17:32 - 17:37Show up. Listen up. Step up.
-
17:37 - 17:40And do what my gut said
that we should be doing all along: -
17:41 - 17:44let's keep talking about it.
-
17:45 - 17:46Thank you.
-
17:46 - 17:48(Applause)
- Title:
- Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis
- Description:
-
In the wake of the #MeToo movement, people keep asking attorney and educator Leondra Hanson the same question: “What do we do now?” Drawing from her professional observations and her personal experiences, Hanson argues that we need to change our conversations about sexual harassment and violence. From the corporate training programs in our workplaces to our personal interactions with each other, she urges reimagining how we talk about sexual violence.
Leondra Hanson joined the faculty of the College of Liberal Arts at Hamline University in 2008 where she now teaches courses across the legal curriculum and chairs the legal studies department. Hanson’s scholarly and professional work focuses on women and law, sexual assault and harassment, and legal education. Before Professor Hanson taught law, she practiced, working on cases involving sexual assault, discrimination, and real estate – a wide array. Hanson loved the counseling and advocacy work of representing clients on both sides. Her specialty was in simplifying the complex and making people comfortable with the litigation process, a skill she has, no doubt, carried over into academia. Hanson earned her BA from Concordia College in Moorhead, MN and her JD from the University of Minnesota. She has provided counsel, risk prevention, and training to professionals in human resources, legal, advocacy, and real estate fields. Professor Hanson is a former board member of the Minnesota Coalition Against Sexual Assault and served on the Minnesota State Bar Association Alternative Legal Models Task Force.
This talk was given at a TEDx event using the TED conference format but independently organized by a local community. Learn more at https://www.ted.com/tedx
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDxTalks
- Duration:
- 17:52
Peter van de Ven approved English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis | ||
Peter van de Ven accepted English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis | ||
Peter van de Ven edited English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis | ||
Peter van de Ven edited English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis | ||
Peter van de Ven edited English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis | ||
Peter van de Ven edited English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis | ||
Carol Wang edited English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis | ||
Carol Wang edited English subtitles for Stop training. Start talking | Leondra Hanson | TEDxMinneapolis |