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A conversation with
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social innovator and futurist
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Jacque Fresco
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- Let's start with the context
of current world events.
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We live in a world of perpetual
warfare and crime and corruption.
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A war ends in one location, and
it begins in another location.
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The theater of war rotates,
but it never goes away.
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Protest after protest,
we never stop the wars
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that continue to go perpetually.
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It seems that we need
a different approach
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in dealing with the problem
of perpetual warfare.
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How does The Venus
Project approach this?
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- If you really wish to bring an end to
war, poverty, hunger, and most crimes,
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what we have to do,
eventually through education,
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is declare all of the
earth's resources
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as the common heritage of
all the world's people.
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That would be number one.
If that is attained, then we can
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do away with all of the artificial
boundaries that separate people.
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Before the states had joined
together into one nation,
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there were territorial disputes at all the borders.
They were malicious,
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but once the states had joined together,
the maliciousness disappeared.
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There was no need for it.
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The same process can be applied
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to all the sovereign
nations of the world.
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To be invited in to a
participatory democracy,
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whereby all the resources are
shared by all the world's people;
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I see that as the only means.
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Transitionally, if you
substitute any other system,
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we will have built-in
antagonisms.
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So, this is what we
have to strive toward.
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I don't say this can be
accomplished in one swoop.
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It's a slow process
of education.
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We hope to make a motion picture
depicting these changes
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and showing people what the advantages
would be to each individual
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throughout the world of a
resource-based economy.
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- Why do you propose
such a radical change?
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- Well, I would like to see
an end to war, poverty,
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unnecessary human suffering,
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and I can't see it within
a monetary-based system
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where the richest nations control
most of the world's resources.
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I can not see that happening.
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I see a constant repeat of
the same series of events:
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war, poverty, recession, again,
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boom, bust, and war again.
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I see no end to that
cycle of events
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unless we declare the
earth as common heritage.
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- I hear discussions of a new
paradigm and economic systems,
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and you're proposing such a change
in a resource-based economy.
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What is a
resource-based economy,
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and how does that compare with
a monetary-based economy?
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- In a monetary based economy, we
use money as a medium of exchange.
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Now, money doesn't represent
our capacity to produce.
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It just represents a method
designed hundreds of years ago
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and established
within the system.
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In the monetary-based system,
it's wealth, property and power,
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and that is the main directive.
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Now, today we say "How
much will it cost?"
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That is not really the question.
The real question is
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"Do we have the resources to build
that kind of project?" Yes, we do.
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"Do we have the money?
" No, we don't.
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We don't have enough money
to wipe out the slums
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and build housing all over
America, and schools,
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even if we taxed everybody, doubled it.
We don't have enough money,
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but we have more than
enough resources available
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to build anything
we want to build.
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If you have difficulty
with that, consider this:
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Suppose all the money in the world
disappeared tomorrow morning.
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As long as there
are farms, water,
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building materials, we can build
anything we want to build.
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It isn't money that people need;
it's access to resources.
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In other words, it was necessary,
a hundred years ago,
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to use a monetary system for
the distribution of products.
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Today, we have the technology
to make those things available.
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What are we chiseling
off each other for?
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- Exactly what is a
resource-based economy?
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- A resource-based economic
system does not use money,
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barter, trade, or any of the older
systems that were prevalent.
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It's based on
designing a culture
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that fits in with the carrying
capacity of the world's resources.
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Anything else other than
that will not work.
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It's like sending people to the
moon without water, without food,
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operating on the assumption
that the moon will provide.
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It has to be based...
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All science and technology
must be based upon resources.
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Without resources,
whatever planning you do,
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if you don't have the
resources, is invalidated.
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So, the resources must coincide
with the industrial potential.
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- How does the resource-oriented
economic system,
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which The Venus
Project promotes,
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how does that offer a different
approach to our society?
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- It would change the
basic outlook of people.
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There will be no such
thing as unemployment,
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no such thing as war, no police,
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no prisons, no banks, no money;
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but people would have access to new
housing, education, health care,
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and all of the things we
don't have access to today
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without putting out a
great deal of money.
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- When you say "no
money, no banks,"
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you mean that there will
be no debt, no credit,
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no barter, no form of
monetary exchange?
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- ...
by any individual or group,
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and no inventions would
be owned by corporations.
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They would be in
the public domain.
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So, you can't make money
on new cancer treatments.
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You can't make money on anything
that should be in the public domain,
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and we think everything should
be in the public domain.
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- I see how that relates
to the effectiveness
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in reducing the emissions that
are destroying the ozone layer.
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There is no profit motive, so there is
no reason to continue that behavior.
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I can see how it would reduce the
destruction of our rain forest.
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Because there is no profit motive, there
is no reason to destroy the rain forest.
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We have no restraints for
finding alternatives
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that don't damage the ecosystem.
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Recycling, huge problem with
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waste, non-recyclable waste...
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Without the profit motive,
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we have no reason not to
develop eco-friendly products.
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- Yes, this is so.
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- The decadence, the moral decay
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of the pool of people that we
choose our political leaders from.
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- We don't choose them, mostly the
establishment does the choosing.
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- So, we would eliminate,
we would step away from
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the constraints of capitalism
in a resource-based economy.
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- Yes, nothing less will do.
There is no compromise, middle way.
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Until you have common heritage,
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you are going to have all the same
kind of problems, more or less.
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Modified or enlightened
capitalism
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would reduce the
problems only minimally.
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- So, in a resource-based
economic system,
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you are saying that territorial
strife would be diminished?
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- Gone.
There is no basis for it.
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To protect your property, you
have military and police.
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Since you don't own anything in the
future, you live in your ideal house.
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You drive very well-designed cars,
and when you get out of that car,
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it goes to service
automatically; it's maintained.
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You don't want to own anything.
What you really want is access to things
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when you want it without waiting in line,
and that's what I'm talking about.
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I'm talking about making
things available to people.
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You don't want to own your golf clubs.
You want them there when you want them.
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When you go to the golf course,
you want to be able to select
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whatever clubs you like,
whatever you like to work with.
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That's what you really want.
When you go down to the yacht basin,
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you want to get in a cabin cruiser
and go out with your family.
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You don't want to
fill out any forms,
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and someone will tell you "Hey!
There's fifty people before you!"
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We would turn out
more than enough
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so that you can always go down, and there
is always a car out there for your use.
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- Is monetary economics at the root
of the problem and can it be fixed?
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If it can't be fixed, why not?
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- Frankly, within this
system, in order to survive,
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you have to submit to the
methods of this system.
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A lawyer is not out there
to help you always.
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There is money in it
for the law firm.
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In other words, the motivation
is not what you would call
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based on human concern.
It's based on the bottom line.
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The motivation in most industries,
the bottom line is profit,
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not the betterment of humanity;
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and they would feel that that
is a by-product of this system.
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I don't believe that.
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It's that the rules of the game
were invented so many years ago,
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they no longer fit the economic
circumstances of the times.
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What we would like to do
is update our system,
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so that it fits the
new technology.
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Invite them in,
shorten the work day,
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increase the availability
of goods and services
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to all people throughout the
world without any nations
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taking advantage of any
other nation's resources.
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- What does The Venus
Project represent?
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- One world working
in one direction,
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the intelligent
management of resources,
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and upgrading the standard of
living for all the world's people
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with profits to none and
service to everyone.
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- What about scarcity?
Can that be eliminated?
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- Do we have enough resources
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to satisfy the growing
population in the world?
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Yes, today we have
more than enough,
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and it is incontestably proven
that we have more than enough.
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It's just that the ways we manage
our resources are wasteful.
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We change the design of
automobiles every year,
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so people will buy new cars.
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We raise the hemline
on clothing.
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We change the spring fashion, the
fall fashion, the winter fashion,
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so you will buy things and constantly
be involved in purchasing things.
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In the future we will design
cars to last ten years or more,
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so you don't have
to service them.
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We will engineer, innovate,
and make newer things
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designed not to wear
out and break down.
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- What about 'human nature'?
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- I think that environment
shapes values and behavior.
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Genetics, to a certain
extent, set the propensity,
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but they do not give
us a value system.
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Genetics is not responsible
for greed, bigotry,
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racism, prejudice.
All that is learned.
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If you don't alter the
condition that generates that,
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I don't see a solution.
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What The Venus Project advocates
is the redesign of our culture,
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so that those conditions
no longer exist.
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- Who makes the decisions?
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- Instead of formulating a decision as
we do today, we will arrive at them,
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and that is a method similar
to that used in engineering
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where you put something to
test in order to find out
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or evaluate a
particular situation.
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Decision making then in the
future will be based upon
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actual studies on human need,
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protecting the environment,
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and manufacturing goods and
services with clean technology.
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- Who decides who gets what?
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- You do. You go to the
access center, look around,
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and if there are things that
you would like to have,
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you put in a request for them.
That simple.
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- You are talking about,
if I read you correctly,
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no money, no credit,
no borrowing, no debt,
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no bartering?
Where is the incentive?
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- No war, no
territorial disputes,
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crime reduction by about 90%,
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the end of fear of
economic deprivation
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or losing your home
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or illnesses which you can not
afford economically to take care of.
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All that comes to an end.
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If that isn't a good enough
incentive, I don't know what is.
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A lot of people are brought
up to believe that money
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is the driving force that
generates incentive.
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It also generates incentive
for corruption, embezzlement,
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taking care of your brother-in-law,
unfair practices, racial discrimination.
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I'm saying that, yes, money
does produce incentive,
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but it also produces all the other
factors, which are generally left out.
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I would say the people
we remember in history
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are not the people who made a
buck or made a lots of money.
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They are people that
have given their lives
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to benefit the lives of other
people without financial gain:
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Mother Teresa, Christ,
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Gandhi.
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Martin Luther King didn't
march in the South
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because there was 2000 bucks
deposited in his account.
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He did it because this
was what he believed.
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I would say that all the great
achievements throughout history
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did not come from
monetary systems.
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It came because people believed
in what they were doing.
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Advocating a public library
doesn't bring money to anybody,
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but it brings education to everybody
that couldn't afford books.
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I'm saying, the real
people that we admire
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are the people that
we build statues to,
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who did public works, not because
of the monetary incentive.
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I'm afraid of people that
do things for money.
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I don't feel secure about it.
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- Would the election of people with
higher moral content solve the problem?
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- No, because even
if we succeeded
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in electing people of
unquestionable moral character,
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if we ran out of resources,
there would be lying, cheating,
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stealing, and artificialities.
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It isn't moral character
that we need.
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It is the intelligent management
of the earth's resources.
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The real future depends on our
ability to solve scarcity problems,
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overcome those problems through
our own creative ingenuity.
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- So how do you envision a
transition into this type of system?
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- If you keep bringing in machines
and replacing human beings,
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(we call it 'downsizing' today)
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the majority of people in America
and throughout the world
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will not have the purchasing
power to buy goods or services.
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This will bring an end to
the old monetary system.
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I would see economic collapse
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as the only system that would
bring people around to say:
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"Gee, I see that the people I've
elected into political office
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are not competent enough to
get us out of this problem,"
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and they will be looking for
other possible alternatives.
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This is when The Venus
Project comes in.
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The more people know about it, the
more likely that it may be installed.
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The Venus Project does not say
"This is what the future will be."
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All it says is "This is
what the future can be
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if we accept the postulates and
proposals of The Venus Project."
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What we need are seminars
on problem-solving:
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how to accomplish each successive
phase of human development;
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that is what The Venus
Project has to offer:
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the methodology of how to achieve
a higher standard of living
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for all the world's people
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without the creation of the
uniformity or standardization,
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or subservience to an elite
form that manages government.
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We have no elitism.
We have no government.
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We have no police, no
prisons, no armies.
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There is no need for it in
a resource-based economy.
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- What problems stand in the way
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of us implementing of
this type of transition?
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- Traditions, habits,
indoctrination, propaganda.
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We are all propagandized to accept
our system as the best system.
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We are all given stories about the
culture, our cultural history,
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and which has left out
the detrimental aspects.
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All societies tend to
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support the dominant
values of that society.
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There is no such thing as an
'objective society'. If there were,
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you couldn't have German scientists
making weapons of destruction.
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American scientists, British scientists,
Dutch scientists, French scientists
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working in serving
their government.
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Real science has no
allegiance to government.
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It only has allegiance
to methodology.
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We are using our finest minds
on weapons of destruction
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and methods of maintaining
control and dominance.
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This is not a loyalty
to the Fresco system,
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or loyalty to The Venus Project.
I'd be against that.
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You have loyalty to the Earth and
all the people that live on it.
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- How will we overcome the fear
of losing our jobs to machines?
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- In the money system, it means you
can't pay your rent, and you can't eat,
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and you can't buy a car, and you
can't buy anything you need.
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In a non-monetary system, in
a resource based economy,
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when the new machines come in,
we lengthen your vacation time.
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We...shorten the workday,
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make more goods and
services available to you.
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Many more options
to choose from.
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So, there is no threat.
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It's only in the monetary system
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that machines can threaten your
survival or purchasing power.
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- Who will do the manual labor?
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- During the transition, it will
be done in a manner similar
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to the way it is done today,
humans working with machines.
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After the transition,
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most machines will be designed to
intelligently carry out a given project.
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- But I have trouble imagining a system
without some form of government.
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- At a time in a future when
computers will replace government,
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they will arrive at decisions
by being interconnected
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with production, agriculture,
transportation, and human needs.
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Therefore their decisions,
instead of being arbitrary,
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are based upon real
physical needs.
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- In such an advanced
technological world
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where automobiles
operate themselves
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and buildings are self-erected
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and the computer controls just about
everything else, what will people do?
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- The options that
would be put forth
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on your video sets and
computers are so many.
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You can go back to school, study
anything you want to study,
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get into marine science, and
practice any hobby you want to.
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You are the one that will select
how you want to use your time.
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- Based on the projections
of The Venus Project,
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how do you envision
the world tomorrow?
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- The appearance of the
world of the future
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will be based upon the newer
technologies that evolve.
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The shape of the cities
will be based upon
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the kind of environment
people would like to live in,
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and the machines of the future will
be based upon energy determinants.
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That is, the energy available and
the kind of energy we can tap into
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to make more things
available to people,
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not only materially,
but spiritually,
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and also with concern for one
another and the environment.
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To an individual not familiar
with The Venus Project,
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it seems like high-tech, all kinds
of new technologies installed,
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and they want to know where
the people fit into this.
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What does that got to do with people, all
the bridges and designs of buildings
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are very interesting,
but what about people?
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All these bridges and all
these buildings are designed
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so that they are self-maintaining.
They do not need constant repair,
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and all of the machines are
designed to free people
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to go back to school, study
what you want to study
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and do what you want to do,
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and fulfill the needs that you
have that need to be fulfilled,
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so that you can become what
is called an individual;
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a creative individual
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that doesn't need to fall in line
with any particular point-of-view.
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We welcome your criticism
of The Venus Project.
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We welcome the participation of
everybody and the contributions.
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We have no idea of what the
ideal society would be,
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nor do we entertain
such views as Utopia.
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We feel that all systems
will constantly change
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to whatever conditions are necessary
to fit the needs of the times.
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We have no fixed blueprints,
so we invite participation,
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and we invite
recommended changes
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because the history of civilization
is the story of change.
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That's why The Venus Project
has no fixed blueprint.
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- Who decides what
the future will be?
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- I don't think anyone ought to
decide what the future will be,
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but we ought to decide
where we wish to go
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and what kind of world
we wish to live in,
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and do we have the facilities and
resources to build such a world?
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The answer to that
is "Yes, we do have
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the ability and resources
to build such a world."
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There is no way for you
to make it on your own.
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Either we think globally
or we perish individually.
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When I speak about globalization,
I'm not talking about
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the global concept of corporations
running everything on earth
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where all human beings would
be subject to their wishes.
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I'm talking about common heritage
of all the Earth's resources
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by all the world's people;
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and therefore, all
decisions being made
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would be based upon that which
benefits every living being.
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For more information:
www.TheVenusProject.com
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Designs: Jacque Fresco;
Models: Jacque Fresco, Roxanne Meadows
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Model Photographer:
Jacque Fresco
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Computer Animation: Doug Drexler;
Music: Kat Epple
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Presented by: Future by Design