‘The Daily’: The President and the Publisher

During an interview in the Oval Office, the publisher of The New York Times questioned President Trump about his attacks on the press.

See https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/politics/trump-wall-investigations-interview.html

AG SULZBERGER: Very friendly.

MICHAEL BARBARO: For the New York Times,
I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.

(theme music plays)

Today:

On Thursday in the Oval Office
the President of the United States

debated the publisher
of the New York Times

about the role of a free press.

(theme music plays)

It's Friday, February 1st.

MICHAEL BARBARO: For the purposes of this interview
how would you like me to refer to you?

Like in terms of your actual name,
do you want to be AG? Do you want to be Arthur?

AG SULZBERGER: AG, yeah.

MICHAEL BARBARO: AG, tell me the story
of what happened this past summer.

AG SULZBERGER: Well, I had recently
been named publisher of The Times

and I was coming back from dinner one day

and I got an e-mail from Sarah Sanders --

not someone who had e-mailed me before --

and she asked if I could
come to the White House later that week

for a private, off-the-record meeting with the President.

Our journalists are typically extremely cautious

about giving off-the-record meetings
to prominent newsmakers,

but it's part of the responsibility
that comes with being publisher

to be willing to sit down across from folks
who are regularly receiving coverage,

particularly regularly receiving tough coverage,

and hear if they have any concerns.
So I felt that I should accept.

Meeting face to face with the President,
I felt it was really important

to raise some of my concerns
about his increasingly strong anti-press rhetoric.

I also felt pretty strongly that
I should bring a journalist along as well

so I brought James Bennet, my colleague
who oversees the opinion department,

including the editorial page,
and we headed down to Washington.

MICHAEL BARBARO: And what happened?

AG SULZBERGER: James asked most of the questions,
as the journalist in the room,

and then at some point I sensed
a natural break in the conversation

and I brought up what I had been
wanting to share with him.

I said to the President, I am increasingly
alarmed by your anti-press rhetoric.

Phrases like "fake news"
I find very troubling,

but I am deeply concerned about the implication
of phrases like "enemy of the people."

And I believe that this language
is not just divisive, it's dangerous.

MICHAEL BARBARO: And this is all off the record.
So this is just a message

that you very much wanted
to deliver to the President directly?

AG SULZBERGER: That's right. And it was
a civil meeting. He did hear me out.

At the end of the conversation, after we had
stood up and were preparing to leave,

he thanked us again
for coming in, turned to me,

pointed to his head, and said,
"You have given me a lot to think about.

I really will think about it."

MICHAEL BARBARO: So you leave
the White House. And what happens?

AG SULZBERGER: So largely nothing.
I go back to work, he goes back to work.

And about a week, maybe 10 days
later, I'm at home.

It was Sunday morning.

I think I was either changing a diaper
or was just finished changing a diaper.

MICHAEL BARBARO: (laughs.)
AG SULZBERGER: I get a call that informs me

that the President has just
tweeted about our meeting.

BRIAN STELTER: Some breaking news now,
as The New York Times goes to Washington.

President Trump tweeted
just a little while ago

that he met with AG Sulzberger,
the relatively new publisher of the New York Times,

at the White House recently...

REPORTER: ...tweeting this today:
"Had a very good and interesting meeting

at the White House with AG Sulzberger,
publisher of the New York Times."

President Trump continuing, "spent much time
talking about the vast amounts of fake news

being put out by the media
and how that fake news has morphed

into the phrase, 'enemy of the people.' Sad."

MICHAEL BARBARO: Is that your
understanding of what happened in the room?

AG SULZBERGER: No. It was a gross
mischaracterization of our conversation.

Certainly we had had a meeting
at the White House --

I will leave it to him to decide
whether it was good and interesting --

and we talked about his use of phrases
like "fake news" and "enemy of the people",

but it was not a conversation in which I was agreeing
with those characterizations in the least.

MICHAEL BARBARO: What exactly did you do?

AG SULZBERGER: I grabbed my laptop
and typed out a very brief account

of what had actually
transpired in the meeting.

We issued our statement, which
I thought spoke for itself,

and the news cycle moved on to other things
and I moved on to other things.

And then six months later, this week,
I get another e-mail from Sarah Huckabee Sanders,

this time asking me to join the President
for a private dinner at the White House.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Huh. And what are
you thinking when you get that invitation?

AG SULZBERGER: I'm thinking I can't
possibly accept this invitation.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Why not?
AG SULZBERGER: Because I'm already reluctant

at allowing people to go off the record,

but the notion that I would do that

with someone who had so clearly
violated the terms that he had requested

and that I had agreed to a second time
just felt like a non-starter to me.

MICHAEL BARBARO: So you're prepared, it sounds,
to say no and to walk away from this opportunity?

AG SULZBERGER: I did say no.
I wrote an e-mail back

which I thought was perfectly polite
but also very direct,

saying that given what had transpired
the last time we had such a meeting

that I would be unable to accept
a private dinner with the President.

But I also added, and I thought
that it was probably a long shot,

that if the President was willing to meet

on the record with several of our journalists

for an interview, that
I would be happy to join.

MICHAEL BARBARO: And what was the response?

AG SULZBERGER: To my surprise,
the next day they said yes.

So this morning, Maggie Haberman
and I took the train down to D.C.

where we met our colleague Peter Baker

and prepared for the first
significant on-the-record interview

we have done with
the President in over a year.

MICHAEL BARBARO: How are you thinking about this interview?
Because you're the publisher of The Times.

You're not a reporter, but
you're going to White House

with two of the Times' star White House reporters.

What exactly is this meeting in your mind?

AG SULZBERGER: That's exactly right.
My role in that room

is very different than Maggie and Peter's.

So when we sat down to plan it out

I made very clear that I would leave the reporting
part of the meeting entirely to them,

but I also said that there were a few things
that I wanted to convey to the President

following up on our previous meeting.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Essentially some
unfinished business?

AG SULZBERGER: That's right.

(music plays)

AG SULZBERGER: The White House is just
a few blocks from the bureau,

so maybe 20 minutes before the meeting

we headed out into the cold and walked over.

Got to the White House security.
Maggie breezed through.

Peter breezed through and then it turns out

I had not been entered into the system.
(Laughter)

So I found myself standing outside
in the cold for quite some time

while they decided what to do with me.

MICHAEL BARBARO: And what
did they decide to do with you?

AG SULZBERGER: Eventually some embarrassed
member of the communications team came over

and apologized for forgetting
to enter me into the system.

And I guess I passed whatever
test of trustworthiness,

and they gave me a pass
and went through security.

(footsteps, voices)

So we get in. We're escorted
into the Oval Office

and take some seats in front of the President's desk.
(Background voices)

He walks in the room.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Hi, Maggie.
MAGGIE HABERMAN: Mr. President, good to see you.

AG SULZBERGER: Shakes each of our hands.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Sit down, please. Thank you.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Would you get
the letters from Chairman Kim,

and also the list of the things
we've done for the two-year period.

They would be good.
How you guys doing? Okay?

PETER BAKER: We're good. How are you?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Very good. We had a busy day.

AG SULZBERGER: We begin the conversation.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: We just had a great meeting
with the Vice-Premier of China.

AG SULZBERGER: Pretty early in the conversation

he talks about how just moments earlier

there was a group of Chinese leaders there

along with most of his Cabinet
for trade negotiations.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: We had it set
so you could walk in.

But were you delayed
at the gate or something?

MAGGIE HABERMAN: There was an incident. (laughing)

PRESIDENT TRUMP: What happened?
AG SULZBERGER: It was fine.

AG SULZBERGER: He had been very much hoping
that we would see the impressive scene

and wondered why we were late.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: Fine. Everything's fine.
AG SULZBERGER: I think I looked like a suspect individual.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: Yes.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: (indiscernible) good.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: I'm not sure they wanted to let AG in.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: You look good.

AG SULZBERGER: At which point
Sarah Huckabee Sanders

had to let him know
I had been blocked at the gate.

MICHAEL BARBARO: You were the reason why?
AG SULZBERGER: I was the reason why.

PETER BAKER: So do you, having had
the meeting today with the vice-premier

do you feel like you got a deal?
Or are you close to a deal?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: We're getting closer.

AG SULZBERGER: After some small talk
the interview begins.

Maggie and Peter start going through
their long list of questions.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: You have you talked about
the sacrifice that this has presented for yourself,

for your family, being president,
for your business.

Could you ever see a point
in the next year where you say,

"you know what, I don't need to do this again.
I don't need to run for re-election"?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I don't see it because --

so I just gave you a list of
a lot of the things we've done

and this list doesn't even come --
I don't know if you have it? Here.

That's not even. Just grab it.
Reading material for tonight.

AG SULZBERGER: Maggie asked him whether
he's intent on running for another term.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Maggie, here's
the bottom line. I love doing it.

I don't know if I should
love doing it, but I love doing it.

AG SULZBERGER: He talks about
his recent phone call

with the head of the Venezuelan opposition.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: We had a very good talk.
Just more than anything else I wished him good luck.

AG SULZBERGER: He talks about Nancy Pelosi.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: This is your first experience
dealing with Nancy Pelosi having the gavel as the Speaker.

Do you feel that you properly estimated her strengths?
Do you feel like you underestimated them?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yeah, I -- I have actually
always like gotten along with her

but now I don't think I will anymore.

I think that she is hurting
the country very badly.

AG SULZBERGER: And says that
he's given up on their relationship.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: If she doesn't approve a wall

the rest of it is just a waste
of money and time and energy.

AG SULZBERGER: He talks about the shutdown.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: But based on
what I hear, based on what I read,

they don't want to give
money for the wall.

You know I'm building
the wall. You know that.

I'm building the wall right now.

AG SULZBERGER: You know,
for the beginning of the interview

he seems excited and engaged,
almost gregarious.

He's talking in superlatives
and with obvious excitement

about the work and what
he describes as his accomplishments.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: One of the generals said
you've done more to defeat Isis

than any other person, not even close.

AG SULZBERGER: And then
as the questions shift towards Russia...

MAGGIE HABERMAN: Has Rod Rosenstein given you
any sense over the course of the last year about whether

you have any exposure either in -- or there's
any concerns or whether you're a target of either Mueller --

PRESIDENT TRUMP: He told the attorneys
that I'm not a subject -- I'm not a --

MAGGIE HABERMAN: He told you this?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: -- a target, yes. Oh yeah.

AG SULZBERGER: And the Cohen investigation.

PETER BAKER: Can I ask sir, can you clarify
the Trump Tower Moscow proposal, right?

It was this discussion. We have
learned since the campaign

that this went on longer, through
the campaign, than we had --

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Let me tell you
about Trump Tower Moscow.

This is was very unimportant deal. Okay?
This was a very unimportant deal.

AG SULZBERGER: He becomes visibly more cautious.

His arms creep up and they're now folded on his chest.

PETER BAKER: You told people that you didn't
have any business there and people might --

PRESIDENT TRUMP: That wasn't business -- a very good --

PETER BAKER: -- had this meeting to say --
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Peter, that wasn't business there. That was a...

PETER BAKER: You were pursuing it.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: That was essential -- I had no money invested.

AG SULZBERGER: His sentences are growing shorter.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: Did you ever talk to him
about Wikileaks? Because that seemed to be --

PRESIDENT TRUMP: No.
MAGGIE HABERMAN: -- what Mueller was --

you never had a conversation with him?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No. I didn't. I never did.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: And did you ever tell him
or other people to get in touch with him?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Never did.

AG SULZBERGER: And it's clear he's being cautious.

At one point he was visibly uncomfortable enough

that Sarah Sanders muttered
under her breath, "next topic."

PRESIDENT TRUMP: This job is,
from an economic --

I get a kick out of these people
saying "A rich Arab stayed at his hotel."

AG SULZBERGER: And then, as we have seen
in previous interviews with President Trump,

there are a lot of interesting tangents that he'll take.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I lost massive amounts
of money doing this job.

This is not the money.

AG SULZBERGER: One of the more striking

was him talking about how
everyone assumes he's making so much money

and benefitting so much from being president,

but that actually...

PRESIDENT TRUMP: This was one
of the great losers of all time.

Fortunately I don't need money...

AG SULZBERGER: Assuming the office
had come at a significant financial cost,

and I think he used some language like
it's the biggest loser, being president. That's right.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: But I lose, I mean,
the numbers are incredible.

AG SULZBERGER: Initially we had been told
that the conversation would be around half an hour, and...

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Maggie, he has been doing
a great job -- yeah?

FEMALE VOICE: -- important calls
whenever you're finished.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Okay. I'll be in a little while.

AG SULZBERGER: Like clockwork, at about half an hour

his assistant came into the room
and told him that time was up

and he had a busy schedule.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: What's more important
than The New York Times, okay?

FEMALE VOICE: Nothing, if you ask me.
AG SULZBERGER: Nothing.

AG SULZBERGER: The conversation continued
like that for fully another half-hour.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Wow.
AG SULZBERGER: So a full hour.

AG SULZBERGER: On multiple occasions
Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Bill Shine tried to interject

by saying, "okay, let's do one
or two more questions."

MAGGIE HABERMAN: Mr. President, can I ask
a question that I was wondering if you would --

SARAH SANDERS: Nothing to do with me.
MAGGIE HABERMAN: Mr. President, can I as you five more questions? (laughter)

AG SULZBERGER: But Maggie and Peter just kept right at it

and President Trump seemed happy and interested
to continue to answer their questions.

MICHAEL BARBARO: And what are you doing
while Peter and Maggie are pressing the President

on all these various questions?

AG SULZBERGER: I didn't say a word.

I thought my role there was
to open the doors for the two of them

for an on-the-record interview.

MICHAEL BARBARO: So you stayed
silent the entire time?

AG SULZBERGER: That's right.
(background voices)

AG SULZBERGER: Mr. President,
before we wind down,

I didn't want to miss the opportunity
to raise a concern that...

AG SULZBERGER: But then I realized the meeting
was actually starting to wrap up,

and it felt like the moment
was right to share the concern

that I wanted to raise with the President

which stemmed from our previous conversation.

AG SULZBERGER: ...we discussed last time I was here.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: And by the way, you're right,

and I did not know when
we were off -- did you apologize I hope?

SARAH SANDERS: I did, yeah.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Okay, because I did not know that.

And I apologize for that. Okay?
AG SULZBERGER: Thank you for saying that.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I did not know that.

AG SULZBERGER: And immediately he interjected
and offered something of an apology.

It took me a second to realize what it was about,

but I believe he was apologizing

for breaking the off-the-record agreement
he had asked for in the previous meeting.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Ah. The tweet.

AG SULZBERGER: But I circled back and said, you know...

AG SULZBERGER: The concern I raised then
was about your anti-press rhetoric,

fake news, enemy of the people.

At the time I said I was concerned
that it wasn't just divisive,

it was potentially dangerous.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Right.

AG SULZBERGER: And warned that I thought
it could have consequences.

I feel like in the time since

we have started to see
some of those consequences play out.

We have seen around the world

an unprecedented rise

in attacks on journalists,

threats to journalists...

AG SULZBERGER: And as I'm saying this
he is leaning in and asking questions.

AG SULZBERGER: ...jailing of journalists and murders --
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Where in particular?

AG SULZBERGER: Globally, on every continent.
I'm happy to send you some literature.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yeah.
AG SULZBERGER: It's very closely tracked.

But one of the things
that has been really striking to me is,

as I have talked to my colleagues
around the globe,

working in different countries,

particularly working in countries

where a free press is already a tenuous thing,

they say that they are increasingly of the belief

that your rhetoric is creating a climate

in which dictators and tyrants
are able to employ your words

in suppressing a free press. I wanted to...

MICHAEL BARBARO: It sounds like you two
are having a genuine back and forth

about the concerns you have

about the dangers facing journalists

and your belief that he as president
is contributing to that.

AG SULZBERGER: That's right.
That's right, and to his credit,

he heard me out and he listened to it.

AG SULZBERGER: I guess the concern I want to raise

is the effects that this,

the broad-based attacks on journalism
and journalists continue to have

seems to be growing and in particular
seems to be growing abroad

with folks who aren't covering
your administration there.

They're trying to do hard, dangerous work

of ferreting out the truth in societies
where the leadership often tries to suppress it.

And I'd urge you to reconsider these attacks.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I understand that.
AG SULZBERGER: But if you choose not to,

I want you to be aware of some of the consequences
that I'm starting to see out there.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Would you say more so now
than over the last five years?

AG SULZBERGER: Yes.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Right now? I mean...
AG SULZBERGER: Yes.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I mean more so now than even a year ago?
AG SULZBERGER: Yes. And I think --

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I'm not happy to --
AG SULZBERGER: I think the murder of Khashoggi

is just the highest-profile example. But we're seeing...

MICHAEL BARBARO: AG, are you experiencing
the president's questions and reactions as authentic?

Because suddenly it's starting to sound like he's saying

the things that a publisher
of The New York Times might want to hear.

AG SULZBERGER: Yeah, I think that's right.

AG SULZBERGER: The United States
and the occupants of your office

historically have been the greatest defenders
of a free press and of free speech.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I think I am, too.
I want to be. I want to be.

AG SULZBERGER: Look, it is hard for me
to be optimistic about breaking through to him

given that I had raised this exact
set of concerns six months earlier

and he said he was listening,
said he was troubled by what he had heard,

said that he thought his rhetoric
had probably gone too far

and said that he would think
about toning it down.

And then has continued if not escalated
his attacks on the free press.

So he made a good show of listening.

He asked follow-up questions.

He expressed concern
about some of the things I said.

But it wasn't fully clear
whether I was getting through to him.

AG SULZBERGER: I wanted to circle
back to this,

first I guess to ask if
you were aware of these,

the broad consequences
that we're seeing.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: The person, honestly,
that has been most suggestive of that is you.

AG SULZBERGER: Yeah.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: More so than others.

I do notice that people are declaring more and more
fake news, where they go "fake news."

I even see it in other countries.

I don't necessarily attribute that to me.

I think I can attribute the term to me.

I think I was the one that
started using it, I would say.

But I do, I do see that, but.

AG SULZBERGER: Can I just respond to that?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yes. Yes, please. Go ahead.

AG SULZBERGER: The phrase "fake news",
you're exactly right.

It had been raised globally, and several countries
have actually banned fake news.

But it was a technique to actually
ban an independent media.

So it's not about viral stuff on Facebook,

it's about countries using that term to actually ban
independent scrutiny of their actions.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Right. I have seen it. I don't like that.

I mean, I don't like it. I don't like --

though I do think it's very bad for a country

when the news is not accurately
portrayed. I really do.

AG SULZBERGER: After this conversation
goes on for a few minutes,

he takes it in an interesting direction.

And perhaps a predictable direction.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Which is what?

AG SULZBERGER: He starts complaining
about his own coverage

and explaining that he feels
he has been inaccurately portrayed.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: And I do believe
I'm a victim of that, honestly.

In all due respect, I know what
a good writer these two people are,

but Peter has been very tough
on us the last couple of months.

I don't know why, because I really
think I'm going a great job.

AG SULZBERGER: At one point
he mentions Peter specifically

and says his recent articles
have been too tough.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I wish you could have seen...

AG SULZBERGER: Could I just say something on Peter?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yeah.

AG SULZBERGER: Peter has covered four administrations,

four presidential administrations, starting with Clinton and...
PRESIDENT TRUMP: I know.

AG SULZBERGER: But one of the things we have learned

over a century and a half of covering
the men who have occupied this office

is that every occupant feels
the press is too tough at times.

But tough coverage is part
of occupying the most powerful seat on Earth.

That chair right there that you are sitting in
is the most powerful seat on Earth,

and it comes with it scrutiny and questions.

You have my -- speaking for The Times,
my enduring commitment

that we will treat you fairly and accurately.

AG SULZBERGER: I actually noticed a oil painting
of President Lincoln over his shoulder,

and I said, we have been covering
presidential administrations for 150 years.

AG SULZBERGER: ...now, starting
with I think that guy.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: He was a good one.

AG SULZBERGER: Yeah, he's a good one.
(laughing) One of the best.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yeah.
I understand that. And I do.

I would say this. If -- I have never, I don't mind
a bad story if it's true. I really don't.

We're all like big people.
We understand what's happening.

I have had bad stories, very bad stories
where I thought it was true and I would never complain.

But when you get really bad stories where
it's not true, then you sort of say that's unfair.

And you know, you have
a tremendous power.

You have the power of the pen,
the power of the ink.

You have a tremendous power.

AG SULZBERGER: And so we continued
to go back and forth.

The striking thing about the conversation now is

if the first hour of the conversation
felt very much like a traditional interview,

questions being asked by Maggie and Peter
and questions being answered by President Trump,

now the conversation had taken a real turn

and it felt like we were
having a searching debate

about the role of media.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: What you do
is a very important thing.

And I will tell you, I would love
if I was just covered fairly.

If I were covered fairly.
Like this should be a fair story.

I don't know what the story is.
This should be a fair story.

I actually think your
readers would respect it.

AG SULZBERGER: There were interruptions.
There was back and forth.

If at first he was listening to my concern,

he became increasingly animated
in sharing his concerns.

MICHAEL BARBARO: This is fascinating. I'm curious.

Were you surprised in the moment
how this conversation was playing out,

that it was becoming a conversation?
Was that what you expected?

Because it seems like you had just
wanted to reiterate a final point

from your previous interview
on the way out the door.

AG SULZBERGER: I certainly wasn't
expecting the full back and forth,

his level of interest and engagement in the conversation.
At one point Maggie jumped in.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: But what do you see
the role of the free press as?

What is it you think the press does?

AG SULZBERGER: He gave her in some ways
the most cautious, literal response

that I have heard from him in either
of my meetings with him.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: It describes and should
describe what's -- accurately what's going on

in anywhere it's covering,
whether it's a nation or a state

or a game

or whatever is -- if it describes
it accurately and fairly,

it's a very, very important
and beautiful thing.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Do you agree with
that definition of a free press?

AG SULZBERGER: I think his definition
is accurate but it's also narrow.

I view the core responsibility of The Times

not just as helping people
understand the world,

but in seeking the truth wherever it leads.
Holding power to account.

Those parts of our job can be
hard to be on the other side of.

And I'm sympathetic to that.

but those are essential parts of how we meet
our responsibility to inform the public.

But I was really struck. There was this moment,
it was a very human moment,

and it seemed like a very sincere moment,

when he talked about being a Queens-born kid.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: But I came
from Jamaica Queens, Jamaica Estates.

I became president of the United States.

I'm sort of entitled to a great story from my --
just one -- from my newspaper. I mean, you know.

AG SULZBERGER: And he just wanted his hometown paper
to write one positive story about him.

MICHAEL BARBARO: He just wants The Times
to say something nice about him.

AG SULZBERGER: That's what he said.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I'm sort of entitled
to one good story in the New York Times.

I started off, I ran against
very smart people. And a lot of 'em.

AG SULZBERGER: And he said it a few times.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: I just sorta think I'm entitled
to a great story from the New York Times.

I mean, I have done something that nobody has ever done.

MICHAEL BARBARO: Listening to
the President talking about the media,

did you feel that any of his complaints
about the media were legitimate and recognizable?

AG SULZBERGER: I don't buy his premise
that he hasn't had that positive story.

The first story he got was "Trump Triumphs."
That was literally the headline.

But he's a disruptive political figure

who has had an incredibly divisive approach to governing,

and the coverage has reflected that.

MICHAEL BARBARO: What do you think
that this conversation meant to President Trump?

And why do you think it became
a conversation in the first place?

AG SULZBERGER: I don't know if
I have the answer to that.

Obviously this is a man whose public posture

is that journalists are
the enemy of the people.

And I'll tell you part of what
troubles me so much about that phrase.

What do you do with enemies? You fight them.

You lock them up. You kill them in a war.

But that has never been President Trump's
private posture with journalists.

I think what this conversation showed

is this is actually a man with a lot of respect
for The New York Times as an institution,

and I think he wants to feel that respect back.

But he wants to feel it
in a certain kind of way,

with celebration of his actions,
with validation of his performance

that I'm not sure a serious news organization,

an independent news organization

can give any president.

And so we have this tension between a president

who in a room with three journalists

can have a really interesting, open conversation
about the role of journalism,

and the role of his own rhetoric
in putting journalists as risk.

But in public I'm not sure
we can expect change.

I hope it will change,
I really do, but I'm skeptical.

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MICHAEL BARBARO: AG, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
AG SULZBERGER: Thank you, Michael.

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MICHAEL BARBARO: We'll be right back.

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MICHAEL BARBARO: Here's what else you need to know today.

PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: The Senator for Florida.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO: Mr. President, I come
to speak about the pending amendment

we're going to vote on here
in about 25 minutes,

and it is an amendment
that says it is a mistake

to proceed with withdrawal from Syria,

and the pace and scale
that is currently proposed,

or that the White House has announced
that they are going to undertake.

MICHAEL BARBARO: In an unusual bipartisan rebuke
of President Trump on Wednesday,

the Republican-controlled Senate
voted overwhelmingly to advance legislation

that opposes his withdrawal of U.S.
military forces from Syria and Afghanistan.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO: I share the
White House and President's desire

that as quickly as possible
that we end conflicts abroad.

It's in the best interest
of our nation and our families

and the families of the servicemen
and women who are stationed abroad.

MICHAEL BARBARO: The legislation, which passed with support
of prominent Republicans like Marco Rubio of Florida

warns that, quote, the precipitous withdrawal
of United States forces from either country

could put at risk hard-won gains
and United States national security.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO: The problem is that
if you do so in the wrong way,

you end up increasing dramatically
the likelihood of a future conflict

that will involve even bigger wars with an
even higher investment of lives and resources to win.

MICHAEL BARBARO: It was the second time in two months
the Senate has opposed the President on foreign policy.

In December a majority in the Senate
voted to end U.S. military assistance

for Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen,

in defiance of the President

who has strongly allied himself
with the Saudi crown prince.

"The Daily" is produced by Theo
Balcomb, Lynsea Garrison, Rachel Quester,

Annie Brown, Andy Mills, Ike Sriskandarajah,
Clare Toeniskoetter, Michael Simon Johnson,

Jessica Cheung, Alexandra Leigh Young,
and Jonathan Wolfe,

and edited by Paige Cowett,
Larissa Anderson and Wendy Dorr.

Lisa Tobin is our executive producer.
Samantha Henig is our editorial director.

Our technical manager is Brad Fisher.
Our engineer is Chris Wood.

And our theme music is by Jim Brunberg
and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.

Special thanks to Sam Dolman, Michaela
Bouchard, and Stella Tang.

(theme music)

That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael
Barbaro. See you on Monday.

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