35C3 - Sense without sight: a crash course on #BlindNavigation

preroll music

Herald: Good afternoon everyone. As you
all know this is going to be an

interesting talk for sure. It is titled
Sense Without Sight. Our next speaker is

Sai and without too much ado please give
him a big round of applause.

He's going to be here shortly.

Applause

Sai: So you might be thinking that I am
Daredevil. I'm not sadly. Well, probably

better for my health. And I do not have
any magic powers, unfortunately. I just

have extra disabilities that make it
harder for me. Nevertheless -

one two back - yay live demos! dum di dum
where did that move?

Angel: Are you going to fall off stage?
Sai: No I'm not going to fall off stage.

Angel: Because you're right at, you're
going to be falling soon.

Sai: No I can walk around without my cane.
It's a little hard to precisely target it,

but as you can see I don't fall off stage.

So just to make this clearer, I am not

faking this. And the way you can tell is I
have a blindfold on. This blindfold is for

real. This is a sleep mask. I can't see
anything right now. So you don't need to

ask how good my sight is or why,
because I can't see.

The issue that I have is light blindness.

Basically I can see if it's
really dark and I can't see if it's really

bright, and lights that are as bright as
the lights here actually hurt my eyes,

kind of, right now through the blindfold.
So I definitely would not be able to do

this with my eyes open and my glasses off.
I do a lot of different things. Blindness

is not one of them. On my shirt, and my
slides, and my website, there's all sorts

of stuff that we can talk about. Let's
please talk about that stuff, not the fact

that I'm blind. Except during this talk or
during my workshops when you're - it's

okay to ask questions about that or talk
about that. Exception is if you want to

work with me on stuff or if you have
feedback I welcome that. But let's talk

about something else like how to analyze a
few terabytes of court data. Anyway!

I have assistants for this talk. One of
them is what I'm going to be calling the

"helpful asshole" aka my herald.
Herald: You're welcome.

Sai: Come up. I also have Bit. Bit, where
are you?

Bit: Here!
Sai: Good! And I have someone running

slides for me because obviously I can't
see my own slides. Fortunately for you

that means I'm not giving the talk like
this to do to do what I've just talked

about. Yeah it is okay to make sound. If
anything it's helpful because it I can

hear where you are. So you might wonder
how I walked onto stage without my cane.

I'm going to go over that in a second but
first, the cane is really, really useful.

So it gives me a number of things. For
instance, right here, you might not notice

it, but there is a difference in the
floor. There is this carpeted section here

and there's this wood section here...
different knocking sounds

Right? Now if I just brush this with my
feet I can feel it. And that's how I

walked on stage. But if I do it with my
cane - hear that whack?

slinging and whacking sounds
You can say yes in response to questions.

You hear that wack?
Audience: Yes!

Sai: So even if I'm lightly walking I just
keep that out at a known degree and I can

easily walk alongside of it. I can also
feel the texture. So one thing you may not

notice but may as well try now is that the
texture of the carpet under your feet -

under your feet, the people who are
live in this audience - I don't know

about you people at home, sorry. But this
stage I have checked out and it is

smoother from the front of stage to the
back of stage and is smoother from the

right of stage to the left stage. And I
believe that's true for most of the floor

and the audience but it's made out of
separate squares. So some of them may be

oriented in a different way so feel with
your feet, for real, like right now, feel.

and feel if you can see if you can feel
which way it's smooth and which way it's

rough. With the cane, when I drag it like
this, it's smoother, when I drag like

this, it resists, and especially if I'm
holding it like this with a firmer grip -

this is nice and smooth. This way it sort
of resists, it bends the cane a little bit.

What else. There's sound, so
something I can do really well with a cane

that's hard to do with my feet but I can

stomping

I can do that. But I can also do this

sharp whacking sounds

so...
lower pitched whacking

that those two sound completely
different, right?

different whacking sounds

In fact...

whacking sound changes again

Here the stage is not hollow underneath.

Here it's firmer and then

whacking sound changes dramatically

suddenly it's echo-y.

alternating whacking sounds

Right? So that helps me tell
just sort of what ground I'm on.

Similarly, actually in the front of the
stage. So

different whacking sounds

and then near - sorry about your mic

the stage edge,

whacking

it's really sort of
resistant, whereas

more solid sounds

there, it's got much more
of an echo to it.

One thing this is very useful for is
echolocation. I am not a bat but it is the

same principle. There are some people who
are much much much better than I am about

echolocation. I'm not that good. But what
I can hear, and what you can hear, and

what you're going to try to hear right
now, is the size of the room. So I'm going

to whack the stage with my cane. What I
want you to do is while I'm doing it,

close your eyes. You're not going to miss
anything. The slide's not going to change.

I'm just here. So close your eyes and move
your head from side to side as I do it.

And you can even sort of look behind you,
and listen for the sound of the size of

the room. You'll be able to hear how large
the room is around you and you'll hear the

echo of my cane from the back of the room.
Kill the PA for a sec.

whack

whack

whack

whack

whack

Right?

whack

PA!

more whacks

OK so that's a simple version. Another

version is these stage curtains. How do I
not faceplant into them. Well there's a

few ways. For one, I can just run into it
with my cane.

speaker feedback noise
That's the speaker, sorry about that. And

that is curtain, nice and soft. There are
several other things about this I'm going

to show in a bit, but also if I'm - sorry
about the speaker - if I'm walking through

this and I walk through the side curtain,
sort of behind.

whacking

Huh, they've added extra stuff
to the stage. Yay!

whacking

It absorbs the sound when I am tapping
near it

there's that.

Bit, where are you?

Bit: Looks like you're lost, you need some help?

Sai: Sorry?

Bit: Do you need some help? Looks like
you're lost.

Sai: Thank you dear angel. No I do know
where I am. So my dear signal angel, my

herald is representing that person who is
trying to be helpful to me several times a

day, and kind of annoys me, or ranges from
annoying to actually dangerous.

I obviously know where I am because I'm
navigating the stage is just fine, and you

saw me walk on without even my cane. So
thank you. But no, I don't need

directions. Bit!
Bit: Here! Howdy!

Sai: So with someone who's right next to
you like this, how do I - how can I tell

that he's there. I'm not touching him with
the cane, although I can and I do. So if I

whack you in the ankle: sorry but that's
how I can tell you're there, especially if

you're standing really quiet. It's really
hard to tell that someone's there and

especially in a crowd like this. So yes
I'm going to hit you in the ankle, too bad.

That's how I can tell you're there.
But in this distance I can feel his body

heat radiating. So from about this
distance away, meh. From this distance, I

can definitely feel it on the back of my
arm. There is his shoulder, there's his

cheek. So actually I would like you to try
doing that. So turn to the person who's

next to you, ask their consent first. I
have asked Bit's consent for everything

that we're going to do. And what I would
like you to do is put your hand up next to

them. Try to almost touch their cheek
without quite touching their cheek. And

then deliberately do so. So almost, but
not quite, just by the heat, with your

eyes closed, and then trade off.
Yeah, go ahead!

audience murmurs, giggles

light whacks

So another place that I feel this is on

walls. This wall for instance, the front
of the stage, there is actually wind

coming through these little holes in them.
That wind is colder than the ambient

temperature of the room. If I get my arm
really close to it, then at about this

distance, I feel the cold air from it, and
then at about that distance, there's

actually sort of a sheet wind that is
really tight close to the wall and then,

there my hair - the hairs on the back of
my arm tingle, and there, I can touch it.

So we have people who are in the audience
on scooters and such. They're going to

drive through the aisles. I want you to
close your eyes and see if you can feel

the wind generated by
them moving past you,

and also the sound.

rhythmic rumbling

Some of them are louder than others.

So you feel how when they pass you there's
a breeze in their wake. This happens a lot

in Congress. There are lots of people on
scooters and hover boards and motorized

couches or whatever - gods know what
people motorized around here. Or it's

someone just walking really fast like me.
They all generate a wind in their wake.

Another thing you'll notice in Congress is
- there's these nice tunnels. So for

instance from CCL to Hall 2, there's this
tunnel through the glass hall. When you

walk through, the wind characteristics of
the room completely change. You start

feeling a crosswind. So if I'm walking
this way and the tunnel is on my right

then suddenly I will feel a crosswind from
the tunnel that is colder and wasn't there

before. Similarly with the wall there's
just sort of stops. Next?

Oh yeah. So...

everyone please close your eyes. And I do
mean everyone. Not the audio angels or the

video angels. But everyone in the audience
please close your eyes. If your phone

number ends with the number 1 please move
your arms in such a way as to make some

wind. If your phone number doesn't end in
the number 1, point to the person who's

making some wind. I can't see you so I'm
not going to judge you.

So do you feel that? Yes? No?

Audience: No.

How about people whose phone number ends
in 1 stop, people whose phone number ends

in 4 make some wind like wave your arm in
front of you.

Feel that? Try pointing to them.

Not the people who ends in 4, you
can point to yourselves, I guess.

People whose number ends in 7.

So that's movement. When
people move by you, it

generates wind. When there is a tunnel and
there's an air differential, like the air

under this stage is colder. And that's why
there's a wind out of it. Actually -

du bi dub di dub

Herald: Let me hold your
hand and get that for you.

Sai: Ah, thanks.

Herald: No? You're good? You're sure?
Sai: Yeah, let go of me please!

Sai: Oh yay! More stuff.

cane hitting wall and railing

So down here

whacking

If open the door and I walk past it,
there is this crosswind, I was mentioning

a second ago, about the tunnel. So here
there's a sort of flat to my right and

then here I walk a little bit forward.
Suddenly there is this crosswind

from that opening. Similarly when people
were biking by you, you could tell that.

Similarly if I crack my cane

whacking

I don't know if you can hear that very
well, but try. There's...

barely audible whacking

there's a sound off to that side

that sort of ends at the door. And then
if I knock my cane here

whacking

there's a little reflection
through that door.

And yes I do know how
to close a door.

I know, amazing!

Similarly for these walls

I can feel the

that I'm close to the wall, or not.
Tingley, not tingley.

What's next.

Yes. So yeah you've added
more random crap.

Herald: Can I move these chairs for you,
so you can...

Sai: Uh, no, please.
Herald: Would that be helpful?

Sai: Sometimes that would be helpful. But
at the moment not so much, because if you

were to move it when I've already found
where it is, then suddenly it wouldn't be

there any more, and it'd be hard for me to
orient. One of the things that is

difficult about being blind is you have to
have quite a lot of memory. So the things

that you probably don't notice because you
outsource your memory is how much of the

environment around you changes. So ask a
blind person they probably hate

construction work.
audience laughs

I do. And if I try to go sit down for
instance for that matter - there's a chair

- if this had moved a lot, it would be
really hard for me to take a seat. Now, he

doesn't smell that bad, but some people
have a pretty significant smell, because

they're wearing perfume or cologne or Axe
or something like that. If you've ever

been in a public transit terminal and
you've taken the elevator, maybe you know

the distinct aroma of the elevator in
public transit. Definitely lets you know

you're in New York City. So the next
group, start moving. So my assistants in

the audience are moving through the aisles
with something in their hands. What I want

you to do is close your eyes. Smell, feel
the wind current, smell what is it, point

to them. You point exactly where they are.

Hhm, yummy orange.

So now I'm really hungry.

So if I'm walking past a coffee
shop for instance, it has a distinct

smell, smells like coffee, shockingly enough.
A drugstore smells like alcohol and

cleaning solution. A clothing store smells
like leather and this weird perfume that

they put in clothing stores for some
reason. I don't know why, but they do. And

if you ever visit one hopefully you'll
notice it now.

So let's see, next? Huh?

Ah, right! Dear asshole, you know your
lines?

Herald: [inaudible]

Sai: Bit! Do you have your blindfold on?

Bit: Uh, no.
Sai: Please do.

Bit: I don't have one.
Sai: I don't have an extra one.

Bit: [inaudible]

Sai: laughs
Did you move his blindfold also?

Bit: [inaudible]

Sai: Shall I lend you mine?

Bit: [inaudible]

Sai: Ah, that get's bright! Ow.

So if you are going to try to
help someone navigate.

First off say would you like some help.

Bit: So I'm pretty confused now,
so, yes, please!

laughter

Sai: So don't just randomly assault
people. Just because I have a cane does

not mean it's cool to assault me. Then if
you're going to touch them, do so with the

back of your hand. This way he knows I'm
not just randomly grabbing him and yanking

him around. That's really annoying. So I
can offer you my arm. We can walk. Let's

go have a seat.

laughter

Here we go. That's your seat. Now some
people will like grab the hand and put it

down. Instead I can just say:
here's a chair.

Ta da!

So follow me for a sec.

Can I have a sidewalk beep in the back?

scratching

So let's do a little crack.

whackwhack

Do you hear the back of the
room, where that is?

Bit: Can you do it once more?

whack

Bit: I think it's in front of me, a bit to
the right, maybe.

Sai: So one thing you really don't want to
do when someone is possibly trying to

figure out their orientation is to
randomly come up to them and grab them,

and pull them. Dear asshole?
Herald: Yes please? Can I help you,

can I take you somewhere?
Sai: Let's pretend that you think he

wants to go down the stairs. He thinks
he wants to walk towards the audience.

Let's walk towards the
audience a little bit.

Herald: So here the stairs are this way.

Yeah.

laughter

Sai: OK, pause for a sec.

Herald: ... for the stairs.
Bit: No, not.. really not.

Herald: I'm pretty sure you are. You look
lost!

Bit: I'm trying to go elsewhere.
Sai: Yeah, fuck off please!

laughter

Sai: Now, Bit, can you please point to the
back of the room?

Yeah, not quite is it.

This is what happens when you mess with

someone's orientation. Please don't be that
asshole. So if you want to be helpful you

can be helpful, you can be nice. Say:
"shall I lead you back to the chairs now?"

"Would you like a hand?" They hold you,
you don't hold them, and then you can lead

them back to the chairs. There we go. Have
a seat. May I have my blindfold back?

Bit: Yeah.
Sai: You can tell this is improvised. And

here I am again walking without my cane on
the crack. So it's not just a party trick,

as I'll show in a sec. Next.

Yeah, right.
So, some of you may have the response of

thinking, "oh wow Sai can walk across the
stage, or talk or make decisions". I wish

I were kidding but that does happen pretty
regularly. Can we clear the stuff off the

stage, please? So instead of that, I'd
like to show you something that actually

does involve a little bit of skill. Namely
about a decade worth of aikido. For those

of you who don't know, aikido is a martial
art from Japan. Anne?

Anne: Yes!
Sai: So I've spent about five years or so

learning to use a cane. Anne has spent
well more than that doing aikido and is a

second degree black belt. I am not!
However I'm wearing a blindfold and she is

not. So what I want to demonstrate for you
is how I can tell that she's about to grab

my hand. So there is the sound of the feet
on the ground making this sort of sound.

There is the hand approaching me,
the wind,

there the vibration as
her hips sort of rotate

towards me with my slow fist attempt here.

There I can tell she's
starting to lean back,

and there, I put her to the ground.

Again!

So sound, movement, air flow, heat.

Here is a nice little head, vibration,
wrist, the crook of the wrist.

Full speed!

So the blindfold hasn't come off. This
isn't magic. And again I'm not Daredevil.

I just can't see. I didn't get extra super
special securing powers. My hearings is

pretty good but it's no better than the
average person - I'm - it's actually a

lot worse in the rain. So that thing it
isn't really a thing. So just to prove

that it doesn't just work in this sort of
deliberately set up special thing, Anne is

going to just attack me, however she
wants, and I'm going to

throw her around a bit.

laughter

Note that I can still focus on her.

I can still pin her if I want.

laughs

laughter

applause

applause

And no, I didn't tell them what to do in
advance. That's real. Yes, I am a little

bit out of breath. It's been a while since
I actually exercised. Well and again I'm

still facing you, right? I haven't
forgotten where this line is. Between the

wood and the carpet, and in fact I can
knock it with my ring. Sometimes against

the wall is a little better to generate a
nice echo sound. So if you want to not be

an asshole, please remember, first off,
ask! I may not want your help, or need it,

and what you think may be helpful to me,
maybe, probably is, completely wrong. So

listen to what I say and if I say, "yeah I
would like you to please, lead me to X."

That does not mean grab my arm and start
dragging me to X. I prefer to follow

people by sounds so I'm just going to tell
you to scuff your feet when you walk,

scuffing
so I can follow you by sound, or to just

keep talking. Some people do prefer to
follow by hand. Bit? So if it comes up and

I want directions to the stage center,
lead me to say center, please. Ta da! Not

that hard. If you are going to touch
someone like here, unless you know you've

invited them to attack you because you're
going to do an aikido exercise, don't just

randomly grab them and yank them around.
Touch them, say "hi my name is Sai, would

you like some help?"
Bit: Hi Sai, I would. Thank you very much.

And then you can offer, or you can say:
"what would you like." "Are you lost."

Bit: Actually I'd like to go to your place
thanks.

Sai: Maybe later.
laughter

And one important thing to note. When
people do simulations of disabilities,

they sometimes try to do it by just
pretending to be blind, or pretending to

be in a wheelchair, or something. Like you
sit in a wheelchair for a day, and then

you think, oh it must be so hard to be in
a wheelchair, because my arms hurt so

much, and I couldn't figure out how to get
to the second floor. That's because you've

done it for a day and someone who actually
uses a wheelchair has done it for probably

years and years and years and has much
better arms than you do. And they know

where everything is, and they know how to
get around. Similarly, I know how to get

around without using my eyes. You don't.
If you just try to put a blindfold on and

grab a cane, or let alone those blind
experience museums where they just put a

blindfold on you, and don't give you a
cane, and have you walk around. I actually

went to one once and they wanted to take
my cane away from me? Like hell no. That

ain't happening. I actually lent it to my
partner so that my partner could not feel

afraid of the surroundings of accidentally
walking into something or accidentally

walking off - not a stage, but off a step
or something. So you don't know what you

dont know. Most of the things I've showed
you in this talk you probably have never

realized that there even a thing. Like
have you noticed how many different

floorings there are in the mess hall? How
many different textures there are? How

many different sounds there are, smells,
the wind, the ceiling heights. You

probably don't pay attention to that. I do
and without the experience you're just not

going to be able to learn that. That said,
I am teaching workshops. You're welcome to

come to them if I saw the energy to run
them. One is going to be right after this

talk and the rest to be determined. My
volunteers: can you please come up on

stage if you're willing to be on camera.
This talk is complicated if you ask the

35C3 content crew and the VOC crew and
everyone else. Kind of a pain to run

something like this because I'm doing
stereo recording. That doesn't affect you

in the audience live because the PAs are
mono, but hopefully those of you listening

at home you've been listening to this with
stereo headphones on, and hopefully you'll

hear it from my perspective what it's like
when I crack the cane, and you can hear

the echo in the room.

So thank you very much. Thank you very
much. Take a bow, please!

applause

Herald: Thank you Sai for a very
interesting talk! Questions?

Sai: Can we have the Q&A slide please? So
if you have questions, and you're okay

with being on camera, and possibly being
asked to come on stage so I can answer

your question depending on what your
question is, please queue up to the camera

that's on stage right. Otherwise there's
cameras or there's microphones...

Herald: ...we can also do just plain
questions. If you don't want to come on

stage, you can just answer questions from
any one of the four microphones in the room.

Sai: Bit?

So first question from
microphone number 2.

Sai: Which one is 2?
Herald: It's for that person asking.

Sai: Which one is the...
Herald: Sorry?

Sai: Which one is the one on stage right.
Can I ask them on stage.

Herald: Oh let's see if they want to come
on stage.

Sai: Which number? Microphone number two
is...

Herald: Number two is the microphone - you
want to come on stage?

Question: Yeah, sure.
Sai: I just want to know if...

Bit: Microphone #2 is in front of you in
the aisle, #3 behind there. #1 left on the

aisle, and #4 right.
Sai: So it goes to number four if you're

willing to get on camera.
Herald: So the question is right here.

Sai: Can you please bring me my canes?
Question: Thank you for the really

impressive talk.
Sai: Thank you.

Question: My question is the following. So
when - I want to know how your imagination

works. So when someone says, imagine a
box, what's that you think of. Is that the

material or how it sounds, how it feels,
just how does it work.

Sai: Well there I would actually go to my
kind of psychology talk that I gave a

27C3, and a box is a category, theoretic
concept that has a prototype, possibly.

It's like asking: imagine a furniture.
Hhm. Imagine a box! What kind of box? Is a

shipping box? Is it a box of mate that are
those little crates that I walk into etc.

There are all different kinds of boxes. Is
it an elevator? Yeah I don't know how to

answer that kind of question.
Question: So maybe I got that incorrect,

but what I want to say is that when they
try to think of something I had no idea

and you project plan, or etc. I imagine
how it looks. So how I am at a certain

place or how I, for example, see a box if
someone's talking about the box. So my

brain works like visually creating visual
pictures. So I was interested in how that

works for blind people.
Sai: Well, that depends on the blind

person, I have - I've never really had a
visual thought process. So when I've

talked to people and asked them what is it
like to think for you? So if people in the

audience, think about this, if you're
imagining like what you did over the last

day - try it - okay. Many people here feel
that as sort of a quasi audio monologue.

That's like a voice in their head, except
it's their voice, it's not other voices.

Many people have it, like you have it, a
sort of visual experience. Some people

have it as scrolling text. Can I get a
clap for anyone who has their thoughts as

text? Anyone? No? Okay. Like two or three
people who have that. For me it's purely

abstract. But if I wanted to think of a
box, yes I can think of a box. I can

imagine it visually, I can imagine what it
feels like, etc. Also please remember I

can see in dark light. I can't see here
because - even looking up is painful with

my eyes closed under this blindfold. There
is enough light coming through that it

hurts. I definitely would not be able to
open my eyes and I could take my blindfold

off temporarily but that was because I was
willing to tolerate some pain. So if it's

a dark room then I can see just fine.
Herald: The next question is from the

Internet so they won't be able to go on
stage.

Sai: Yes, the internet!
Question: How do you feel about

the app Be My Eyes.
Sai: Be My Eyes. It's actually not bad.

There's Be My Eyes, TapTapSee, BeSpecular,
several for iPhone which I've never used

because I've got an Android. Though
iPhone, for what it's worth has, and Mac

products in general, have really excellent
support for blind people. TapTapSee is

useful. It's not as useful for me because
at home, like if I want to identify a can

of soup or whatever, I will just look at
it with the lights down, so I can see it

myself. And it's too much of a pain to use
if I'm out, like if I'm grocery shopping.

That's something that's a real pain to do
and an accessibility issue. For those of

you thinking about such things: if you
only support the operation search or the

operation look up and say I walk into a
grocery store - which I have done - yeah,

shocking. And they come up to me and say,
hey how can I help you, what do you want.

I say well I don't know what I want. What
do you have. I would like a savory snack

that's vegetarian. What do you have. Well
what do you want. Name it. And if I name

it they'll get it from me but I don't
know, especially if I'm in Germany. I have

no idea what they sell here yet they still
ask me. So browsing is much harder and

with TapTapSee and with Be My Eyes and so
forth, it's really for identifying a

specific object. One thing that you may
not be used to here but in more barbaric

countries, all the paper currency is the
same size and has no distinguishing

features. Except for the next print run,
because the American Federation for the

Blind sued the U.S. Treasury and won. So
the next generation of bills except for

the one dollar note which the Treasury is
not allowed to change by law,

laughter
the next generation will have blind

accessibility features. Here, they have
different sizes. If you feel your euros

they have a little strip on the edge of
them. And some versions of them have

little braille dots that you can tell what
they are. So that's that's not as bad

here. Be My Eyes is more useful for
someone who's blind at home as well. But

it's a great app!
Herald: Another question from microphone 4

that's to the right of the stage. They can
ask from there, but if they want to come

up...
Sai: Thank you!

Herald: Do you want to come up?
Sai: Ask first!

Herald: I'm going to - sorry for all
the...

Question: So it was very impressive how
you pick up on all the these things that

like, I normally don't. So I was really
curious when you meet a new person. What

do you pick up. What do you pickup about
them. Like how do you assess the person.

How do you know they're like interesting,
attractive, like how do you.... Because I

use visual cues for that.
Sai: So I'm going to answer you assuming

that I'm blind at the time. If they come
up to me and say "how much can you see?"

then they're probably not a person I want
to continue interacting with.

laughter
If there is someone who comes up to me,

they've read my shirt about all sorts of
different things that we can have a

conversation about that's substantive, and
they say: "hey how would you like to

implement liquid democracy", or "how do
you make a non-linear writing system", or

something like that. Then they're more
likely an interesting person or they

introduce themselves and are nice. How do
you evaluate people? Like, you can't value

them just by what they look like. I can
tell your age and your approximate gender,

and your approximate place that you were
raised linguistically, and if you were at

the same floor level, I can tell your
height. I can probably tell roughly your

weight just from your heat, your - the
sound of your voice, the amount of

pressure that you're making on the floor -
depending on what kind of floor it is,

like if it's the stone out in the Messe,
I'm not going to get anything from that.

Yeah blind people can be racist too if
that's what you're thinking.

laughter
Everybody can be racist.

singing We're all a little bit racist.
Yeah same way anyone else!

Herald: So we will do one last question
for microphone number two, that's center

aisle.
Question: So thank you for your talk. I

think that was very inspiring. I was
wondering, most of the methods you showed

where rather analogue. So have you also
tried something like maybe a smart cane so

you have some more technical approach to
detecting surfaces and obstacles, or other

things, and what's your experience with
this kind of thing?

Sai: Hopefully my slide is still up there,
where it says I'd be interested in

collaborating on that. Eric Boyd at
SenseBridge of NoiseBridge, where I used

to be, made a nice anklet called the
NorthPaw, which is basically a series of

pager buzzers that vibrate to point to
which way is north. I sadly broke mine,

and if any of you have a working one, I
would really like to have it! Absolute

orientation is really difficult. So
relative orientation, like what I was

doing with the aikido, I can tell like
where someone is. I can focus on them but

then it's easy to lose track of which way
you're facing. So something like that is

quite useful. There are some products that
do this on demand. So I forget what it is

called, but the LHZ Dresden had this
product, which is a tactile feedback

compass and clock. So if you click it and
it will vibrate in different ways to tell

you which way you're facing. That's - it
doesn't really work very well. What you

would want is something continuous. I've
heard of canes where they've like attached

a camera to either the cane or to the to
the grip, and it beeps or something when

there's something there. I've never used
one, so I can't comment on that directly

but from blind friends, who told me about
experiences with them, they tend to be

engineered by sighted people who have no
idea what it's like to be blind. That

said, it is true that tree branches are a
real obstacle, because if I try to sweep

something and something is above this
height like a tree branch at about this

height or a metal sign like in Boston or
D.C. or New York, or well really anywhere

in the U.S. Not so much in London, they're
pretty good about that except for the one

time I walked into a government building
and there was a monitor affixed to the

wall at this height.
indicates height of his head

I cleared the column, hit the column. I
knew there was a column there and I was

just walking past the column and walked
smack into the monitor. This was in a

government building, sadly. But usually
they're pretty good about it and I haven't

found any like that here. But trees,
there's always trees. Bus stops often have

sort of the the sign on on the side,
right? And there is like this gap that

might be this high
indicates knee hight

because I have a fairly long cane. Canes
are usually anywhere between sternum and

nose. And mine is just at the edge of my
nose. If I'm standing up tall. It's quite

long because I walk really fast. So mine
has a lower angle and that means that it's

more likely to go under that and then I'll
hit it like here when I'm almost at it.

Tangles up my cane, it's kind of a pain.
Yeah. So it's possible that something that

detects a higher range will be useful. One
thing that I'm specifically interested

because it's something I'm bad at, is
absolute orientation. So if you are an

engineer or a hacker who is interested in
collaborating on something like putting

things in the cane grip or in a hat or on
the side of eyeglasses or something like

that, that would tell me which way is
north, constantly, please get in touch. Or

for that matter if you can make glasses
that will take standard lenses and have

zero light leakage, please get in touch.
Because it turns out there aren't any such

frames on the market for some reason.
That's the technology.

Thank you very much!
Herald: I think we're out of time.

Thank you Sai for a very interesting talk,
big round of applause.

applause

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