Discerning Subtle Marks of a Cult and Leaving It - Clint Leiter Interview (Part 1)

There is a power to those cults,

and that power lures in,

and then that power holds

once you are in there.

When you're confronted with the truth,

you begin to suspect yourself

rather than the cult.

You begin to say to yourself,

"Well, surely I'm not seeing things right.

Surely it's not like that."

And there's a power that
holds people in there.

Interview with Clint Leiter
Pastor of Highway M Chapel

Sedalia, Missouri

James: You have previously mentioned to me

that in your past before
pastoring in Missouri

you got pulled into
a group that was a cult.

I believe you used that term.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought it would be helpful

if you could describe
what errors they held to

and how the subtlety of it deceived you

for that season.

Maybe what you went through there

could help someone else
who's being deceived

in a similar situation.

Clint: Well, that's a bit of history

in my past that I'm somewhat embarrassed

and ashamed over -

that I would be led
into something like that.

I have used the word "cult" before

because I believe that's what it was.

In my case, my background

was somewhat dead churches,

compromised churches.

And so I encountered this individual

who was very zealous -

on the outside very zealous.

And the group that I was a part of

was a parachurch organization

that had for its emphasis

a ministry to the poor, the widows,

the oppressed,

and particularly in third world countries.

And so at that point in my life,

I was thirsting very much

for something real and alive,

and that zeal was right there.

And I may have been an early convert

at that point in my life.

It's difficult for me to say.

But at any point, I was lured in

and captivated by this zeal.

And I think it's a characteristic of cults

to be initiated by one man

who is a charismatic personality.

And so that's something
to be on guard against.

This fellow was a charismatic personality.

He was six foot four.

Very outgoing.

Very musical and very zealous.

And so initially, that's
what caught my eye

and lured me in.

During those years of my life,

there was a lot of Clint Leiter

and not enough of Jesus.

I think I had some good motivation

in the way of the Gospel
to the third world,

but in my travels to India and Africa

and Mexico and so on,

there was a lot of
adventure seeking in that.

And this cult provided that opportunity

to fulfill that thirst
that was there for me.

Now, I say they were
parachurch organization

in the sense that they weren't affiliated

with any particular church;

any particular body.

And their emphasis was an overemphasis

on the poor and the needy

and the oppressed in the world.

And it's often times, I think,

a characteristic of cults

that they take something from the Bible

and overemphasize it.

For instance, I'll give you an example.

At the end of James 1,

pure religion undefiled,

James says, it is to meet the widows

and the orphans in their distress

and to keep oneself
unspotted from the world.

Well, in the context,
James is simply using that

as an example over and against

being a hearer of the
Word and not a doer of it.

But they take that verse and they say

this is Christianity.

If you're not going down to the widow

down the street from you

and mowing her lawn,

or you're not starting an orphanage

or being a part of an orphanage

or you're not separating yourself

as a group from the world,

you're not fulfilling that.

And so that was a characteristic

that I would say should be a danger sign.

That is, highlighting something,

overbalanced in the Bible.

Another characteristic that was

a part of this group was

an overemphasis on the Old Testament

and the way God dealt with Israel -

the nation of Israel.

It led in this group after I had left

to them performing Jewish ceremonies

and erecting tabernacles
out in the parking lot,

and studying Hebrew

and all of those kinds of things,

as well as food pantry ministries

to Jewish communities in Chicago.

So there was an overemphasis
on the Old Testament.

The leader of the group,

he was into memorizing the Bible

and oftentimes it's another
characteristic of cults.

They do know the Bible,

it's just that they're able to
twist it to meet their ends.

But of all the books of the Bible

he chose to memorize,

it was Isaiah.

I mean, it wasn't John.

It wasn't Romans. It wasn't Hebrews.

It was Isaiah.

And so I just use that again

as an illustration.

It was an overemphasis
on the Old Testament.

Another thing that I saw in this group

as I look back on it especially

is legalism.

And you know, do not handle,

do not taste, do not touch.

Colossians 2 there.

And those things Paul says

to the Colossian church,

they have an appearance of wisdom.

But what are they?
They're self-made religion,

self-abasement,
harsh treatment of the body,

those kinds of things.

So they were legalistic.

This is what you do
if you're a true Christian.

It was a focus on doing
rather than on being.

And that's a characteristic, I think,

I noticed of the cult that we were in.

Another characteristic to
be on guard against,

and that is immorality.

Moral lapses.

I think that comes directly
as a result of legalism.

Because again, Colossians 2,

these things are of no value

against fleshly indulgence.

And so you've got legalism.

There's no power there to deal

with the lusts of the flesh and so on.

That comes through walking in the Spirit.

So inevitably, and how
often have we seen it,

in parachurch organizations and so on

where things get skewed and overemphasized

and a legalistic bent to their manner,

there's some moral failure
among the leadership

and that was the case here
in this group as well

that led to us taking a stand against that

and leaving.

God surrounded me with godly men

that were able to counsel me

and encourage me

and bring me out of that.

Because I say there is a power

to those cults that is unrecognized

maybe by people who haven't been

directly involved in them.

And that power lures in

and then that power
holds once you're in there.

And when you're confronted with the truth,

you begin to suspect yourself

rather than the cult.

You begin to say to yourself,

"Well, surely I'm not seeing things right.

Surely it's not like that."

And there's a power that
holds people in there.

And so those are some characteristics

that I noticed being in that cult

and that were prevalent

in drawing me, luring me into it.

I think the Lord used that

nonetheless in my life.

I was exposed to the third world.

I made a lot of trips in far away places

and ministered in whatever
flawed capacity I was in

to people in really
hard, difficult situations

in third world countries.

And I still have that as an experience

that helped me in my Christian walk.

James: When you were coming out of it,

were people like Charles Leiter

saying things to you?

And did you receive that initially?

Or did it take a long period of time

for you to see the errors

that they were pointing out?

Clint: Charles was very
helpful to me that way.

With him, I did not doubt his insight.

I knew immediately that what
I was a part of was wrong.

I needed to get out of it.

So he was one of those

that has been put in my life

signally used of God that way

to steer me in the right direction

and keep me from making a ruin of things.

So it was very helpful.

James: So where did you go from that point

to get to where you're at now

pastoring in Sedalia?

Clint: Well, again,
one of the characteristics

of the cult that I was in -

I think it has to be
common in a lot of ways -

a parachurch organization
that it becomes a cult -

they begin to view themselves

not as an aside ministry,

an extension of the church,

they begin to view
themselves as the church.

And this group had worship meetings

and things like that.

They were very communal

and made up mostly of young people

who were disadvantaged

and came from bad situations

who felt the love there

and the compassion

and so they were drawn into it.

But anyway, they were a church

meeting on Sunday mornings.

We were a part of that as well

at that point in our life.

When we left that group,

we began to meet in my father's basement

as a home church.

Just a small group of Christians,

mostly family, in his basement.

And I felt a compelling desire

to shepherd that group

on a weekly basis;

to bring a word from the Bible.

Something with the
authority of Scripture to it.

Something thought out and planned.

A sermon.

And so we began to function as a church.

We began to take communion.

We had hymn books.

My mom played the piano.

And I would prepare a sermon.

I asked my father if he felt any desire,

compelling desire to pastor this group.

And he said he didn't,
and I said, well, I do.

So I began to operate and function

in that capacity.

I was working full time

as an industrial electrician at the time.

And so I would rise from my bed

and spend a few sleepy moments there

in preparation and head off to work

and keep a notepad in my pocket.

And as I was meditating on a verse,

I'd jot down some thoughts or something.

And my week would progress that way

and I would cram on Saturday

and try and produce something

that could be prepared useful

for a group on Sunday morning.

So I began functioning that way.

We invited men to come speak to us.

Charles came and spoke.

Conrad Murrell came and spoke to us.

Michael Durham from Paducah, Kentucky.

Mack Tomlinson.

Different ones came and spoke to us

and we were less than a dozen people.

It's a real tribute to these men of God.

They don't have to have
hundreds to stand before.

They gladly did that.

But when Conrad was
staying with us one time

in my home ministering to us,

we were sitting on the love seat

and I was talking to him

and just telling him where I was at

and how I felt like God had something

for me here, and yet I was an electrician

at the same time.

And Conrad, he sat there

characteristically quiet
as he does thinking.

And then he said, well, Clint,

I think there's no other way to view this

than you've been
drafted into the ministry.

And that word was very prophetic

coming from him.

It was very confirming coming from him.

And all I could do was sit there and weep

at that point in time.

It was just like a burden had lifted.

It was what I needed to hear.

And so from then on,

that set my course in a resolve

to shepherd the people of God.

James: As far as the transition

from going from Illinois to Missouri

and co-pastoring with Bob Jennings,

how did the Lord bring that about?

To hear Clint's repsonse to that question

and part two of the interview,

you can click below if
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