Should I Step Down From Being a Youth Leader? - Ask Pastor Tim

I'm going to read this to you guys

and then you guys tell me

how you'd counsel this guy.

And look, in a lot of these,

it's not that there's
necessarily a perfect answer,

I'm just wanting you to think

and be discerning

and think Scripturally,

seek to apply the Scripture.

So you have this guy Alex.

"Hi Pastor Tim, I'm currently serving

as a youth leader in my church.

My first question is:

It seems like every
time I teach the youths

they don't seem serious about it.

I mean, they actually did tell me

that they like me much better than

the previous youth leader.

They also told me that they prefer

to listen to me teach over
the elders in the church

apparently because the teachings

of the other elders are
somewhat always the same

but worded differently.

That I have to admit as I feel

that sermons on YouTube give me

much more growth than the sermons

I hear at my own church.

I don't say this to boast,

but rather to just give
you more information.

I really do spend a lot
of time in making sure

the messages I create are
practical and biblically sound.

However, I just feel like
if the people I'm teaching

are not really serious about
applying what is being taught

should I continue teaching those people?

To add, I'm teaching youths

that are ages 15-19.

My second question
is that I've always been

somewhat of a self-taught person

in a sense that when I first
became a follower of Jesus

I never had a Paul the
same way Timothy did.

Everything I learned was just strictly

based on personal Bible reading,

reading Christian books, watching sermons,

and of course, my own
personal experiences.

Now of course, I believe I was guided

by the Holy Spirit in my learning,

but I've always desired a mentor

who could actually guide me in my walk,

but I feel no one in the
church could be that person.

Most of the elders of my
church seem too busy

and no one ever offered
to train me in some way

before I was asked whether I
wanted to teach at the church.

I'm like the only 25
year old in my church.

No one else in my age range.

The other youths aged 15-19

are not really serious about their walk.

I just feel like sometimes I'm not growing

the way I'm supposed to,

and I sometimes question
whether I'm qualified

simply because I'm
not trained the same way

a person like Timothy was
perhaps trained by Paul.

My question is, is it right for me

to continue serving as a youth leader

even though I'm not really growing

the way I feel I should be growing?

And also because I may not have

the appropriate training
that a youth leader

should probably have?"

So there you have it.

What do you tell a guy like that?

James: He said,
"my messages are practical."

I think that's not what the kids need.

He says they're not really
serious about applying it.

Well, probably because
they're not born again,

so I think he needs to change
what he's saying to the kids.

They're not serious about
their walk. Why is that?

And he can give practical messages all day

to a bunch of goats and
they won't want to apply it.

He's got a great evangelistic opportunity.

Tim: Yeah, that's definitely
a thought I had.

I mean, I would look
at a situation like this

or like any situation that
we get in in our life.

And I would begin to ask questions.

You need to consider your options.

You're in a situation like this.

What are the options?

What are the options?

Tell me. What are some of
the options this guy has?

(from the room): Leave?

Tim: He could leave.

He could quit teaching.

He could quit having a problem with elders

that are too busy.

I mean, look, the reality is

I don't know the guy writing.

He could be in a wonderful church

and all the problems could be him.

One of the problems not knowing people

is when they email in.

You know, one of the
things that you recognize

is he's not dialoguing with
his own pastors on this.

The Internet is a very convenient place

to vent your frustrations

because you're not eyeball
to eyeball with people

and you're not eyeball to eyeball
with people who know you.

And so, it's pretty easy.

It's pretty easy to slant things

the way that you're
almost calculated to get

the kind of answer that you want to hear.

And so, we recognize that

when we get these questions.

We recognize that we're getting

one person's opinion of a situation.

But I would say, yeah,
what are the options?

One option - probably
the most radical option -

you just leave it all.

Go to a different church.

He could do that.

I mean, he could do that.

If he feels like, well, one,

he's the only 25 year old

if he wants to go where
there's other people his age.

Two, if he feels like
the whole youth group

is basically uninterested,

and it sounds like he's even wondering

whether he's called to teach

or whether he's qualified to teach.

It sounds like he's got elders at least

that he feels are too busy

if that's really the case.

He could put all those thing together

and he could say,

maybe this isn't the
best place for me to be.

What's probably the minimally difficult

or radical decision that he could make?

Yeah, do nothing.

You know, when people are faced

by problems, by difficulties in life,

you could do nothing.

But what are a number
of other possibilities?

One is what James said.

That came to my mind

that look, if I'm heading up -
(incomplete thought)

Maybe one of the problems here

is that this guy is like a lot of
the Christian realm out there -

professing Christian realm -

is you basically assume
everybody's a Christian

that says they're a Christian.

You know, when you watch "Logic on Fire"

one of the things that they say

about Martyn Lloyd-Jones
when he went to Westminster -

he did not assume that everybody

sitting in the pews was converted.

So many of his messages
were extremely evangelistic

and he saw many of the people converted.

And I think if you're discerning

and it sounds like he's discerning -

he's at least able to recognize

that these young people
don't seem very enthused.

It seems like he's recognizing

that there's very little
commitment on their part.

And so, yeah, I think James is right.

Basically what it sounds to me

is that he's dealing with a
whole youth group of lost kids.

And so if you recognize that,

like James said, it's a huge opportunity.

What an opportunity for this guy to say,

hey, you know what?

I need to stop trying to
deal with these people

like they're Christians,

and giving them these Christian messages,

and really learn what the Gospel is

and preach that to them.

Now as far as being qualified,

I don't know that.

I don't know how to answer that

because I don't know the guy

and I've not been exposed to his gifts.

I don't know where his Christianity is.

I don't know where his maturity level is.

(from the room)

I'm wondering, he sounds pretty mature.

But I'm wondering, I've
never been on a mission,

but I'm thinking maybe I would
have the same questions

if I was on a mission and
thinking "am I qualified?"

But maybe I am qualified, you know?

I just need to push myself harder

or maybe I'm not qualified.

You know, I'm guessing that's probably

some of the questions
you would struggle with

if you're out on a mission

or doing things of this nature.

Tim: Well, let me ask you this.

Do you know what was involved

in Paul selecting Timothy to go with him

on his missionary endeavor?

Do you remember that account

when Timothy first shows up?

He was well spoken of.

Do you remember which churches?

Anybody remember the churches?

Was it Lystra and Iconium?

He was well spoken of

by the brethren in those churches.

How do we know? I mean, look,

when you have the
qualifications for elders,

you see 1 Timothy set in the context

of Timothy being at Ephesus.

The church being the pillar

and the ground of truth.

What we recognize is that
even Paul and Barnabas

as supernatural as it was
that the Spirit of God

seemed to indicate some
way to the church at Antioch

that those two were sent forth,

yet what we find is that they were

two of the five prominent
men in that church

who were exercising their gifts
in preaching and teaching.

And my whole point here is this,

even think with me about
look out amongst yourselves

and choose seven men

who are full of the Holy Spirit.

You know, when they were looking

for men to serve the
tables there in Acts 6.

Look out among yourselves.

They called the brethren to
look out among themselves.

And I think that the
basic biblical pattern

is that you have people tested

in the community of the local church.

Asking somebody far away
through the website

about whether you're qualified or not,

really, we can't make that assessment.

You could hear somebody say certain things

that could convince
you they're not qualified,

but it's very difficult
to tell from far away.

The place for a person's
gifts to be tested

are right in the local church.

The people who would best know

whether this guy is qualified
to do what he's doing

would be his own elders.

Now whether there's any incompetency

on the part of his elders, I don't know.

What thinking went into their minds

before they put him in this position?

And he seems to sense some inability

to access these guys' time.

But your own church would really be

the place to say that.

I mean, when we're talking about people

doing Sunday School

or we're thinking about elders or deacons

or we're looking at the possibility

of sending people overseas,

and when it comes to
church planting endeavors,

when it comes to setting
up preaching rotations

to church plants that we've started,

I mean, basically what is going
to go into those decisions

is the observations that we have made

in two primary areas:

One, character. Two, gift.

Do they have outstanding character?

And do they have the
adequate spiritual gifts

to do what we're asking them to do?

And the place for both of
those things to be proven

is right in their own local church.

Provenness is really the only way

to figure out if somebody is qualified.

Unless, of course, you
get some supernatural -

in some way, the Spirit of God said

send Paul and Barnabas.

Whether that came through a prophet,

(incomplete thought)

Maybe that's just a way of saying

that it was confirmed through the church.

Because the church is said to send them

just as it says the Spirit
sent them in Acts 13.

We don't really know the
mechanism God used there

to communicate that,

but typically, the way that
we would look today

is tested in the community of believers.

So I mean, if I was in his position

and I was having doubts,

the first people I'd go to is the elders

and say are you sure
I'm qualified to do this,

and I would have discussions
with them about this.

But like James said, I would take this

as a huge evangelistic opportunity.

I mean, if I had any burden to be teaching

or any burden evangelistically,

and suddenly when I become aware -

maybe in the beginning I thought,

hey, I'm going to have 15-19 year olds

and they're all professing Christians

and I come into it
thinking that I'm dealing

with young people who are Christians,

and I want to talk to them about purity,

but I recognize after awhile

that they're just dead and
they don't really care

and they're not likely
walking in purity anyway,

and it just suddenly dawns on me

that it's probably
because they're all lost.

You've got a bunch of young people

that have made professions, been baptized.

Now if that's true, I think
that says something

about the quality of the
church in and of itself,

if you've got a bunch of young people

that have all been run
through the baptismal waters

and most of them are not converted

or all of them are not converted,

that says something about the discernment

of the elders as well.

And that would begin to make me question

whether their discernment about putting me

in that teaching position
was necessarily good.

But it is an opportunity to say,

hey, I've got a room full of lost people

and they're not responding well

when I'm basically exhorting them

with these Christian exhortations.

Yeah, I think going right to the root

of hey, you know what
real Christianity looks like?

And you know what I'm seeing?

Most of you don't have it.

Maybe all of you don't have it.

You know, all of you are likely

going to end up being like Matthew 7 says,

saying "Lord, Lord," but in that day,

you're going to hear, "I never knew you."

(Incomplete thought)

My suspicion is that if all
these folks are baptized

and the elders actually did that

and you begin to scare the kids that way -

cause their consciences to wake up -

probably they would then
think he wasn't qualified.

But that would probably
prove all the more that he is.

And that would probably prove all the more

that he's really in a bad church

and he's got some bad leadership.

But anyway.

(from the room)

I have a question.

What role does consistency play

in being a proven Christian?

Or just other attributes
that would contribute?

Tim: Well, I mean, in 2 Timothy

Paul specifically tells Timothy
to look for faithful men.

And we were just down in Mexico

and the question came up

about qualifications.

People were wanting to know

what does it take to go
to the mission field?

Look, we have different sorts of people

that we use in our church.

Some are like John Sytsma.

They oversee a missionary team.

Some are like Matt Wilkinson.

He's church planting in Saltillo.

But others are like Jenny

who go as a missionary helper to Lebanon.

(incomplete thought)

Obviously when we're
talking John and Matt,

we're looking for men that
are basically elder caliber.

That's true of John.

Whether we would say that's
distinctly true of Matt,

Matt never served as an elder
in our church here at home,

but we did lay hands on him

in sending him forth as a missionary.

But then we get missionary helpers.

But I tell you this, in all of them -

Craig just recently said
when we're thinking

about new teachers or revamping teaching -

we've committed Sunday
School classes to Craig

now that he's an elder.

And he told me, he said,

I'm not putting anyone

in the Sunday School rotation

who doesn't come to the prayer meeting.

And I would say amen,

and I would not send anybody
to the foreign mission field

unless they were faithful
in their attendance.

Now look, I recognize if they've
got Wednesday evening class

or they're on a work rotation
where they have to work

every third Wednesday,
or whatever that looks like,

I recognize.

But when people are flippant

and they're not disciplined

and they're not prioritizing
the prayer meeting,

I want people that are prayerful

that are in any kind of ministry,

any kind of leadership,
any kind of teaching.

We need prayerful people.

We need faithful people.

What does faithful look like?

People that keep their word.
People that come on time.

People that if they're
given a responsibility,

they don't drop the ball.

They're very meticulous about it.

They're very conscientious.

I mean, I remember one time

we had committed the
leading of music to a man,

and he showed up at the church

and didn't lead.

And I looked at him,

and he just decided he
wasn't going to do it.

I mean, that's dropping the ball.

If you've got a Sunday School class,

you're not just waking
up on Sunday morning

and putting together something
in 20 minutes and running in.

You're serious.

You're going to give yourself to it.

(from the room)

So to be a proven Christian,

you said consistency, faithfulness,

maybe being tested.

Tim: Well, when we talk about tested,

I mean one of the things we're looking for

is the character.

Is there pride or humility?

Purity?

Their honesty?

Their work ethic?

Are they diligent in the Scriptures?

Are they growing the
knowledge of Scripture?

Do they have a consistent
walk with the Lord?

Is it real?

Is there reality in their life?

Is there growth in their life?

Is there a fear of God, a love of Christ?

As far as gift, that's going
to demonstrate itself.

(Incomplete thought)

Basically, what is a spiritual gift?

A spiritual gift is not something somebody

is naturally born with.

It's something that the Spirit of God

imparts to a believer.

Now it may be consistent
with physical giftedness,

but it is the Spirit specifically enabling

an individual to do something in a way

that benefits and blesses

and imparts grace to God's people.

And the truth is it's like an evangelist.

Somebody can call
themselves an evangelist,

but you know what, if you're not able

to communicate the Gospel

and actually see people's lives changed,

I doubt you're an evangelist.

A person can call themselves a preacher,

but if they step in the pulpit

and they're killing God's
people every time they do it,

yeah, they're in the pulpit preaching

and they may call themselves a preacher,

but are they a preacher?

Well, God hasn't made them one.

So that's the issue.

Somebody can say they're merciful

or somebody could say
that they have a gift to lead.

We can say all sorts of things,

but the real proof is that when you seek

to use that spiritual gift in
the context of God's people,

does God actually energize that?

Does God use that so that God's people

can say yes?

Somebody can say my gift is mercy

or I'm a comforter, I'm an encourager.

But you go try to encourage people

and they feel devastated by you.

I really believe my wife has that gift

because people say that
after they talk to her.

People don't typically
say I have that gift

and I probably would agree.

I recognize.

Now I have different ones,

but that would not be the primary one

or even one maybe.

James: Sometimes you need to be devastated

to be encouraged.

Tim: Right. Right.

Sometimes people need my approach

and maybe even more often,

they need Ruby's approach.

But you know, I'm aware

that when I teach and preach,

people are helped.

I'm also aware that when something

needs to be dealt with really delicately,

I'm not the guy with the gentleness

to pull that off.

And I will defer to my wife.

There are times when
getting counsel from Ruby

about how to handle a
matter beforehand is helpful

because it's like sometimes it
just doesn't register with me.

Obviously, it's not a gift

if it doesn't even register
with me how to do that.

I tend to be blunt and to the point.

Anyway, we know what our gifts are

because when we exercise them...
(incomplete thought).

So I think that that's key.

You guys know this, as we've sought

to test people as far as

their preaching and teaching abilities,

you've seen us sort
through different people.

You yourselves have sat there

and you've been part of the body

as we've sought to listen and evaluate.

(incomplete thought)

Teaching and preaching is prominent

because it happens in
the capacity that it does

where you have an
individual stand before others

and seek to proclaim
the truth of God's Word.

But just as much when you have gifts

of encouragement or mercy

or leadership, serving gifts.

So anything else on that?