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36C3 - What the World can learn from Hongkong

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    36C3 preroll music
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    Herald: Our next talk is going to be
    translated into German and possibly into
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    French. So there is a link you can all go
    to. It's streaming.c3lingo.org. You can go
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    there for translations and we're about to
    start the talk called "What the world can
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    learn from Hong Kong" and it's going to
    take 90 minutes because apparently we can
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    learn a lot from Hong Kong. So buckle up.
    It's going to be a long ride. And our
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    speaker Katharin Tai is a University of
    Oxford alumni and a PhD candidate at
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    M.I.T.. So let's welcome Katharin on
    stage.
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    Let's give her a big round of applause.
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    Applause
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    All yours.
    Katharin Tai: Thank you. Hello, everyone.
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    Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me to
    C3. For starters, I'd also like to thank
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    the brave people who are planning to
    translate what I'm about to say, despite
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    knowing how fast I usually speak. So quick
    round of applause for the translators over
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    there in the boxes.
    applause
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    So my name's Katharin. As the dear Harald,
    I actually don't know your name
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    mentioned, I'm a PhD student at
    M.I.T. where I study Political Science. I
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    also work as a freelance journalist on the
    side and in my capacity as a freelance
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    journalist I, amongst other things,
    covered the Hong Kong protests over the
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    past seven months which as you can
    possibly imagine was quite eventful. I
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    think one important caveat for this talk
    is I am not originally from Hong Kong and
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    I think the people who you should probably
    listening to and who I would love to put
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    on the stage in many cases are people who
    go to great lengths to protect their own
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    anonymity and to protect their own
    identity. And so these are people who
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    would not put themselves on the stage. So
    what I'm going to try to do is I'm going
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    to tell you to the best of my ability the
    things that I've learned from them and
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    from the people who go out on the streets
    and protest in Hong Kong but in general,
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    my talk will be interspersed with
    references to journalists and some
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    activists in Hong Kong who I recommend you
    follow them because ultimately they are
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    the ones who know best. But what do I want
    to do? For starters, because this is 90
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    minutes, so I want to give you a quick
    heads up. I'm going to give a quick
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    overview of why and how things are
    happening, so historically and politically
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    and we will also be showcasing some
    amazing protest art. And then I want to
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    talk about the incredible strategies that
    protesters have been using and that
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    they've been using for over half a year
    now and that's helped them to essentially
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    keep going for more than half a year in
    the face of what is truly an incredibly
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    strong government. So also, we want to
    talk about technology because, of course,
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    it's C3. So it's incredibly important that
    we recognize the very high tech things
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    that the protesters have been using to
    defend themselves against the police, such
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    as catapults.
    Short video starts playing
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    Group shouting
    K: This was recently at the Chinese
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    University of Hong Kong but there are more
    catapults. But seriously, like I said, I'm
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    going to start with some historical
    political background and then I'm going to
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    move on and explain the political demands
    and the protest strategies that the
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    protesters have been using and in the end,
    I'm going to give kind of like a bit like
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    a quick preview of what we can maybe
    expect to happen in the next few years and
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    what you can do to stay informed. So what
    is happening and why? Can I have light on
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    the audience for a second? I don't know
    who I talk to about this. Great. So I want
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    to know, I want to get a quick sense of
    how much people know about Hong Kong's
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    politics. So if you know why the years
    1997 and 2047 are meaningful for Hong Kong
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    politics, please raise your hand. Wow.
    Thank you. That's definitely more than I
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    expected. I hope this won't bore you then.
    Thanks for the lights, that's fine,
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    although I actually like seeing the
    audience, that's quite good. I'm still
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    going to give a quick overview. Some of
    you may know that Hong Kong was a British
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    colony until 1997. So it was under British
    colonial rule for more than 100 years.
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    Once the British lease of Hong Kong was
    up, the British negotiated an agreement
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    with the Chinese government to return Hong
    Kong to China. Ironically, this event was
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    called the Handover, where Hong Kong was
    literally taken by a colonial power and
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    handed over to a different government.
    Ironically also it is that it's called the
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    return to China because the current
    Chinese government was not even in power
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    when Hong Kong was last part of what you
    could consider China. But at this Handover
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    event or before this Handover event, the
    British and the Chinese signed an
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    important document, which was the Sino-
    British Joint Declaration, which says
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    that... which essentially says the rights
    and freedoms, including those of the
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    person, of speech, of the press, of
    assembly, of academic research and of
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    religious belief will be ensured by law in
    the Hong Kong Special Administrative
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    Region. Why are they writing something
    like this? Hong Kong was a colony but
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    because it was essentially used as a big
    and important commercial center, it did
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    have a lot of kind of like societal
    freedoms. So people were able to protest
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    to the extent that colonial law allowed
    it. And there was, for example, freedom of
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    the press and there were worries in the UK
    and also in Hong Kong, a lot of Hong
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    Kongers were extremely worried about this,
    about what might happen to these freedoms,
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    when they would essentially go become part
    of China, which is not democratic. It's
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    not a democracy. It wasn't a democracy in
    the 80s or the 90s either. This is
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    something like... these anxieties were
    obviously exacerbated by the fact that in
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    89, the Chinese government suppressed a
    student protest in Tiananmen Square. Hong
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    Kongers knew about this. And so they were
    watching from just across the border and
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    they were looking at the students in
    Tiananmen and Beijing. And they were
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    wondering, is this going to be us next?
    This whole thing, this whole idea that
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    Hong Kong's freedom will be guaranteed is
    called One Country, Two Systems. And so
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    the idea is that Hong Kong gets to
    maintain its own government in some ways.
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    It gets to maintain its own legal system
    and it gets to maintain all these
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    political freedoms that in many ways are
    not guaranteed in mainland China. In
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    addition to that, Hong Kong does not have
    democracy in the sense that most people
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    understand it. But the Hong Kong basic law
    says that the ultimate aim is the
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    selection of the chief executive, which is
    the head of government in Hong Kong, by
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    universal suffrage, upon nomination, by a
    broadly representative nominating
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    committee in accordance with democratic
    procedures. So basically this could be
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    read as there will also be democracy at
    some point, maybe. Depending on how we
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    define all of these terms. So in 97, the
    Chinese government decided that what Hong
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    Kong is going to get is essentially a
    government that is basically appointed by
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    Beijing. There's... it's a bit more
    complicated, but essentially the Hong Kong
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    chief executive is appointed in Beijing
    and people get to vote for their
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    parliament, but the parliament doesn't
    really have... they can't come up
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    with the laws and say we want to pass this
    law so they can essentially veto bills
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    that come from the government. But Hong
    Kongers basically get to elect their
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    opposition in free and fair elections. Or
    part of their opposition. But they do not
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    get to elect their government. So that's
    where we're starting in 97. So I think
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    this is important to understand because
    while Hong Kong is part of China legally,
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    it has a special status that makes it very
    different politically. And that's
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    something that became very obvious in the
    years following the handover as well.
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    Antony Dapiran, a lawyer who works in
    Hong Kong, has called the city a city of
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    protest. And you can see this, for
    example, because since the Handover there
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    has been a range of protests, all of them
    have been political and a lot of them have
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    been in some ways related to China. These
    are just some examples. One was in 2003,
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    the protest against Article 23, which was
    an anti-subversion law. So basically it
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    was an anti-... So it was basically seen
    as a way for the government to get rid of
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    people who they disagreed with
    politically. People protested against it.
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    And the reform was stalled. In 2012, a lot
    of students protested against a curriculum
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    reform that people essentially denounced
    as brainwashing. They said it would be
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    painting democracy in a bad light and was
    painting China as too positive. Again, the
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    protest succeeded. There were a range of
    other protests as well in the 2000s that,
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    for example, protested for maintaining
    important buildings, what people called
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    Hong Kong heritage. A lot of those
    unfortunately failed. So there's been ups
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    and downs. But it's in no way the case
    that Hong Kong wasn't free. People were
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    able to go out on the streets, people went
    out on the streets in thousands and people
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    had political rallies such as out of
    university, as you see in the picture in
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    the background. And then 2014 happened.
    I'm sure people have seen this. This was
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    the Umbrella Revolution in 2014. I took
    this picture when I was actually at Occupy
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    Central and I studied for my own mid-term
    exams at the Student Study Center. What
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    had happened was that the promise of maybe
    democracy that I was talking about
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    earlier, people thought that Beijing had
    broken it because in that year, Beijing
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    had essentially published it's plan for
    electoral reform and said that, yes, you
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    get universal suffrage, so everyone gets
    to vote, but we still pick the candidates.
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    So people felt cheated and didn't think
    that that was what they were owed. And
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    people went into the streets and people
    occupied a part of the center of the city
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    for two full months and two full weeks,
    which was extremely impressive. This is
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    basically one of the major roads in the
    middle of Hong Kong. It's usually full of
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    cars. You couldn't possibly walk there,
    but people reclaimed it and made it into a
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    protest village. People built their own
    institutions. People organized tutoring
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    services. It was an incredible feeling.
    People, when there were there, were
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    incredibly optimistic and were telling me
    it will be fine. We just need to work
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    together. And if I asked them, how are you
    going to get democracy, though? They were
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    like, I don't know how exactly it's going
    to happen, but it will happen. But what
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    actually happened is that the protest camp
    was cleared out by police and by the
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    government and there were fights
    internally in the democracy movement over
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    how to continue. And so there was a lot of
    disagreement. And what followed was
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    essentially a long period of political
    depression, right? People had been able to
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    bring thousands of people onto the
    streets, but the government didn't even...
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    except for one conversation, sit down and
    negotiate with them. One person who I
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    interviewed last year, so almost two years
    ago now, told me at the time that if the
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    government doesn't even listen to us when
    we bring so many people out on the
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    streets, then I don't know what can change
    anything politically. The one thing that
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    umbrella has taught me is that there are
    no bounds to how disappointed I can be in
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    my government. In addition to this feeling
    of depression, you had several other
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    incidents that made people feel like the
    promise of One Country, Two Systems, that
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    Hong Kong would really be separate from
    mainland China at least until 47 wasn't
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    being kept. One of these examples are the
    bookseller abductions from 2015. The
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    people, there were 3 booksellers who were
    abducted, probably by the Chinese
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    government, one in Thailand, one in
    southern China and one in Hong Kong
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    itself. So these are people who were
    essentially selling books that were,
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    honestly, a lot of it was probably rumors
    and kind of gossip, but they were very
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    critical of the Chinese government and
    they suddenly turned up in China again. So
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    imagine you're a Hong Konger and you've
    grown up in a city where you're being
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    told you have your own legal system and
    you have nothing to fear from
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    China. Because if you don't go, it's your
    own government that is in charge for you.
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    But then you hear about these people who
    are grabbed off the street in your own
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    hometown and who suddenly turn up in
    China, possibly making a public
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    confession. So that looks bad. In 2016,
    this is also important, people had been...
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    the Fishbowl Revolution happened, which is
    also where this beautiful piece of art
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    comes from. The Fishbowl Revolution was
    the protest in part of Hong Kong called
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    Mong Kok. And basically what happened was
    that people decided that violent means
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    might be what is needed to actually oppose
    the government to get political change. In
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    2014, people had been peaceful and they
    had tried, but nobody listened. So if that
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    doesn't work, some people thought
    we need to try new methods. So there
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    was something that could be called a
    riot. And there were really... like
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    clashes between the... like between police
    forces and protesters. People were tearing
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    up the pavement, throwing bricks at the
    police. Police was throwing some bricks
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    back. So that happened. And then
    from between 2016 and 18, another
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    thing that was important happened, which
    is that after Umbrella, there were fights
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    about what to do. And some people decided
    we will go and throw bricks at the police
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    during the Fishbowl Revolution. Some other
    people decided we want to work through the
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    institutions and we want to get elected
    into the legislative council, into the
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    parliament, and we want to change the
    system from within. But what happened was
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    that 6 candidates, and then later even 6
    elected parliamentarians were all
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    disqualified for, in some cases not
    credibly promising that they essentially
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    will uphold the Hong Kong basic law.
    Again, there are legal reasons for this.
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    Some of these disqualifications were later
    overturned by courts. Some, I think, are
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    still, still stand. But I think what's
    really important is that what a lot of
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    people felt was, again, that this was kind
    of like a broken promise. Right. They were
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    like even within the system that we have.
    So we get to elect so few people. But even
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    within that system, you don't let us elect
    the people we want to. You disqualify
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    candidates. This is something that had
    never happened before. And then you also
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    disqualify people after they've been
    elected. So you have democratically
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    elected representatives of the people who
    essentially protest it as part of an oath
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    taking ceremony. And those people then
    also got kicked out. So that looks bad.
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    This means if you're, I'm not going to
    date myself, but if you're my age and
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    you're a Hong Konger, you first lived
    under British colonialism. Where the
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    British colonial government was in charge
    of your feet. And then post 97, you were
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    just kind of like handed over to the
    Chinese government. Maybe at the age of
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    like 4, 5, 6, depending on how old you
    were. But at no point did you actually get
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    a choice. But you also grew up with a lot
    more political freedom than a lot of
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    people in mainland China. You had no
    Internet censorship and people in Hong
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    Kong talk very openly about a lot of
    things that the Chinese government has
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    done. And so you're very aware of things
    such as the Tiananmen massacre and you're
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    afraid that those things might maybe
    happen to you in 47, when you know there's
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    an expiration date on all the freedoms
    that you have. But in 47, you might also
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    be part of that and those things might
    also be what happens to you. But at the
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    same time, what you'd also seen is that
    you'd seen freedoms eroded and you saw all
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    these signs that made you think that the
    promises, the promise of those 50 years of
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    freedom and of a separate political
    system, that that was an empty promise and
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    that China was not intending to keep it.
    And this, I think, is also really
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    important that a lot of people who I spoke
    to that tell me China doesn't want 1
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    country, 2 systems. And if they don't want
    it, they will undermine it if they can. So
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    one person who I spoke to is in his 20s
    said China just wants one country, one
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    system, and it's going to do whatever it
    wants to achieve that. And that's the
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    mindset, I think, that we need to
    understand to know why people are going
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    out on the streets right now. So people
    are scared of China. People think, people
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    don't trust the Chinese legal system. And
    what happens in 2019 is that the
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    government introduces an extradition bill.
    Previously, one of the ways the Hong Kong
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    legal system was kept separate from China
    is that it couldn't extradite people to
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    China. So if someone commits a crime in
    China and flees to Hong Kong, the Hong
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    Kong government cannot send that person to
    China for prosecution. But what happened
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    is that someone committed a crime in
    Taiwan, which Hong Kong considers to be
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    part of China. And that person. So this
    person was a Hong Kong citizen. He killed
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    his girlfriend and fled to Hong Kong, was
    convicted of a couple of credit card fraud
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    charges. But because the Hong Kong courts
    didn't have jurisdiction, they couldn't
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    actually get him for the murder of his
    girlfriend. And so the Hong Kong
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    government said, okay, look, we're going
    to get an extradition bill so we can start
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    extraditing people to Taiwan, including,
    and then also start extraditing people to
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    China. I mean, what do you think people
    thought about that? They weren't happy. So
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    on June 9th, one million people,
    estimated, went on the street to protest
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    against the extradition bill. And this is
    where we're starting, right? This is where
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    the political movement starts. I want to
    give you an overview of what's happened
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    over the past 7 months, because it's easy
    in hindsight to forget just the scale of a
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    lot of what happened. So on June 9th we
    get, official numbers are 240000. So
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    that's the police. The organizers say 1
    million people. On June 12th, we get 40000
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    people who essentially gather around the
    government headquarter and prevent the
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    bill from being read a second time, from
    being discussed. And the police used tear
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    gas, rubber bullets and beanbag rounds
    against protesters that were largely
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    unarmed and in some cases held umbrellas
    to essentially defend themselves. People
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    were really mad at that and so on June
    16th, the largest protest march in Hong
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    Kong history happened with an estimated of
    2 million people, which is a sizable
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    proportion of the city's population. So
    people are protesting on July 21st. I
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    think this is one of the events that
    people really need to know about. Well,
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    there was a protest in the center of Hong
    Kong in a metro station further north in
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    Yuen Long. Suddenly, a group of 20, 25 men
    in white t-shirts turned up and started
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    beating people. So just started
    indiscriminately beating people up who
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    were on the metro. We all know this
    because there was a journalist in the same
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    metro station and she was live streaming
    the entire thing. So for 40 minutes, she
  • 19:28 - 19:34
    was live streaming violence that people in
    Hong Kong had never really seen before.
  • 19:34 - 19:38
    People are used to being relatively safe.
    Hong Kong has a pretty low crime rate. And
  • 19:38 - 19:42
    there was this incredibly vicious violence
    they were all seeing on their screens. So
  • 19:42 - 19:46
    everyone knew this. Like at some point
    there were thousands, tens of thousands of
  • 19:46 - 19:50
    people in this live stream. And yet the
    police was doing nothing. And it didn't
  • 19:50 - 19:55
    turn up until after these people had
    disappeared. And I think within that day
  • 19:55 - 19:59
    they may be arrested. I think within a
    couple of days they didn't arrest anyone.
  • 19:59 - 20:05
    And then later they arrested 3 people. But
    so far, nothing has come of that. That was
  • 20:05 - 20:09
    really a turning point where people lost a
    lot of trust in institutions that they
  • 20:09 - 20:13
    used to have before because they decided
    that ultimately when in doubt, if there's
  • 20:13 - 20:18
    some gangster beating me up, if the person
    is politically for the government, I
  • 20:18 - 20:21
    cannot trust the police to come and save
    me. And a lot of people, especially
  • 20:21 - 20:25
    wealthier, more well-off, middle class
    people, that's the point when they change
  • 20:25 - 20:29
    their mind. Maybe before they said the
    extradition bill isn't that bad, I don't
  • 20:29 - 20:33
    mind, it will be fine. But that was the
    moment when they saw those people getting
  • 20:33 - 20:36
    beaten up. They looked at them and they
    were like, that could have been me. And
  • 20:36 - 20:39
    that's when they said, now something needs
    to happen and something needs to be done
  • 20:39 - 20:45
    about this government. So more people go
    out in the pouring rain. An estimated 1.7
  • 20:45 - 20:51
    million people protesting. August 31 the
    estimate is tens of thousands, but this
  • 20:51 - 20:55
    was an illegal march, so the protest
    wasn't allowed. So people went out to
  • 20:55 - 20:58
    protest despite it being illegal. They
    knew they could be charged with like
  • 20:58 - 21:03
    illegal assembly. Maybe a riot which
    carries up to 10 years. After that, the
  • 21:03 - 21:07
    government essentially stopped allowing
    protest marches and they were like, maybe
  • 21:07 - 21:11
    if we don't allow you to protest, people
    won't come out to protest. Didn't work out
  • 21:11 - 21:17
    on October 1st, Chinese National Day,
    thousands demonstrated on the streets
  • 21:17 - 21:23
    again. And this is the first day someone
    was shot with a life round. So a protester
  • 21:23 - 21:29
    in his 20s was shot by a policeman at
    close range. On October 4th, again,
  • 21:29 - 21:32
    thousands of people out in the streets.
    The government tries to ban masks, so they
  • 21:32 - 21:36
    went to prevent people from hiding their
    faces. And you see what people do in
  • 21:36 - 21:40
    reaction to that. They put on masks and they
    go out and protest because it's Hong Kong
  • 21:40 - 21:46
    On November 8th, the first person died
    in the context of the protests. A young
  • 21:46 - 21:51
    man who fell from a building near a police
    action saved and in a coma for several
  • 21:51 - 21:55
    days and then died on November 8th.
    This picture is from one of the vigils
  • 21:55 - 21:59
    for him. And several days later, the
    second person died in the context of the
  • 21:59 - 22:04
    protest, an old man who was probably just
    a bystander at a clash between police and
  • 22:04 - 22:10
    protesters. He was hit in his face, in
    the head by a brick and died several days
  • 22:10 - 22:16
    later. Also after a coma. This was what
    set off the most extreme and the most
  • 22:16 - 22:21
    violent days of protests in Hong Kong that
    we have seen this year and possibly ever.
  • 22:21 - 22:26
    Where people started occupying university
    campuses and had real battles with police
  • 22:26 - 22:30
    to essentially defend those campuses
    against police. And the whole thing
  • 22:30 - 22:34
    culminated on November 18th in police
    essentially laying siege to an entire
  • 22:34 - 22:39
    university, trapping people inside and
    thousands of people going out to protest
  • 22:39 - 22:43
    and trying to essentially break through
    the police cordon from the outside and
  • 22:43 - 22:47
    rescue the people who were inside, who
    were afraid of the police, who didn't want
  • 22:47 - 22:50
    to come up because they'd seen videos of
    police violence over the past few months
  • 22:50 - 22:54
    and they were scared because they said, I
    don't know what's going to happen if I go
  • 22:54 - 22:58
    out, but who also said we have fought for
    so many months at this point. So this was
  • 22:58 - 23:01
    November, right? So a month ago, they were
    saying we have fought it for so many
  • 23:01 - 23:06
    months, we cannot just give up. We need to
    at least try. One thing that happened as
  • 23:06 - 23:12
    part of that was that people coordinate an
    absolutely insane exit from the besieged
  • 23:12 - 23:19
    university where they basically came down
    from a footbridge. Some of these people
  • 23:19 - 23:23
    are climbing, but some of them are just
    falling down. And then you have
  • 23:23 - 23:27
    motorcyclists waiting for them down the
    bridge. All of this is coordinated online.
  • 23:27 - 23:31
    And we don't know how many people are
    going out that way, but maybe 50 or 100
  • 23:31 - 23:35
    men were able to escape arrest.
  • 23:35 - 23:44
    Video playing, human voices,
    photo shutters, motorcycle noises
  • 23:44 - 23:51
    It's kind of like getting down and being
    picked up by motorbikes. The sieges
  • 23:51 - 23:56
    eventually ended. Kind of a lot of people
    were arrested. I think more than a
  • 23:56 - 23:59
    thousand people were arrested around the
    university that was occupied. But several
  • 23:59 - 24:03
    days later, there were district council
    elections, which are basically local
  • 24:03 - 24:08
    elections in Hong Kong and this was the
    electoral map before the elections. Red are
  • 24:08 - 24:13
    pro-government parties and yellow are pro-
    democracy parties. There was a record
  • 24:13 - 24:17
    turnout, the highest ever in the history
    of Hong Kong. And the pro-democracy camp
  • 24:17 - 24:25
    made the map to this.
    applause
  • 24:25 - 24:29
    One thing that's important to bear in mind
    is that Hong Kong uses the first-past-the-
  • 24:29 - 24:34
    post system. So you win in your district
    if you gain an absolute majority. So these
  • 24:34 - 24:39
    seats actually don't translate into that
    much of a electoral difference. So I think
  • 24:39 - 24:44
    it was 60/40. So with 60% for pro-
    democracy, but especially compared to what
  • 24:44 - 24:47
    the districts had looked like before, this
    was an incredible achievement and I also
  • 24:47 - 24:50
    think this is one thing that's really
    important, recognize that there's a lot of
  • 24:50 - 24:53
    organizational work that went through
    this. So people put in a lot of time, no
  • 24:53 - 24:57
    love like work to make sure that people
    went out and would be able to vote and the
  • 24:57 - 25:05
    people knew who they were voting for. So
    here we are in December. By the count of
  • 25:05 - 25:12
    the activist and writer Kong Tsung-gan
    there have been 6152 arrests, at least,
  • 25:12 - 25:15
    possibly more. 921 people have been
    prosecuted. So there's an incredible
  • 25:15 - 25:22
    backlog and there have been 774 protests
    that includes smaller ones. That was as of
  • 25:22 - 25:26
    December 23. Since then, there have been
    several more hundred arrests. So we're
  • 25:26 - 25:31
    probably getting closer, much closer to
    6500, 6600. And that's where we are after
  • 25:31 - 25:40
    7 months of protest in Hong Kong.
    This is somewhat depressing, but it's also
  • 25:40 - 25:44
    incredibly impressive that people have
    been able to keep going for such a long
  • 25:44 - 25:49
    time. These people who are going out into
    the streets are not just walking for half
  • 25:49 - 25:53
    an hour or an hour and then go home and
    are like, oh, yeah, no, it's fine. People
  • 25:53 - 25:57
    are entering real battles with police and
    essentially running and hiding from police
  • 25:57 - 26:02
    for, in some cases for hours. A lot of
    people have been driven to physical
  • 26:02 - 26:06
    exhaustion. A lot of people aren't doing
    well mentally because that's incredibly
  • 26:06 - 26:10
    depressing. There's a lot of anxiety.
    People are very scared of what could
  • 26:10 - 26:14
    happen to them if they do get arrested.
    And so one thing that I want to now focus
  • 26:14 - 26:18
    on is how they've been able to just keep
    this going for such a long time. Hong Kong
  • 26:18 - 26:23
    is such a tiny place. And if you look at
    the resources that the Chinese government
  • 26:23 - 26:26
    has access to, that the Hong Kong
    government has access to. How can a
  • 26:26 - 26:34
    protest keep going for so long? I think I
    have a few answers. The first answer is
  • 26:34 - 26:40
    that they are very clear demands that the
    movement has. The first is a complete
  • 26:40 - 26:44
    withdrawal of the extradition bill. So the
    blog that I was talking about earlier that
  • 26:44 - 26:52
    was fulfilled in September. The second is
    the release of arrested protesters without
  • 26:52 - 26:56
    chargers. So they're saying we want all
    those 6..., more than 6000 people, those
  • 26:56 - 27:00
    should be released and they should be able
    to go home without being charged because
  • 27:00 - 27:03
    they were trying to make their government
    listen to them because there is no other
  • 27:03 - 27:07
    way you can get your government to listen
    to you if you cannot vote. The only thing
  • 27:07 - 27:11
    you can do is you can go out on the
    street. The third demand is the withdrawal
  • 27:11 - 27:17
    of the characterization of protests as a
    right of old. Any protest is a riot. This
  • 27:17 - 27:20
    is a bit technical, but the basic gist of
    it is that there is a law that the British
  • 27:20 - 27:25
    colonial administration introduced which
    allows police to classify a lot of
  • 27:25 - 27:30
    protests as riots. It's like a pretty
    broad definition. It's pretty vague. And
  • 27:30 - 27:36
    that if you're convicted of rioting, that
    carries up to 10 years in prison. So I
  • 27:36 - 27:40
    think roughly a third of arrested
    protesters has been under 18. Imagine you
  • 27:40 - 27:43
    are 14 years old and you're out in the
    streets and you find out that you could be
  • 27:43 - 27:50
    charged with rioting and you're looking at
    a 10 year prison sentence. Let's... That's
  • 27:50 - 27:54
    very scary. The first demand. Which is one
    of the ones that has some of the most
  • 27:54 - 28:00
    support in the population. Currently at 72
    percent as of December 8th is an
  • 28:00 - 28:05
    independent investigation to police
    brutality because people don't trust the
  • 28:05 - 28:08
    government watchdog. That is essentially
    staffed by people who the government gets
  • 28:08 - 28:13
    to pick. And they have has been. There
    were a few international experts on that
  • 28:13 - 28:16
    panel, but all of them resigned because
    they said this is actually a joke and we
  • 28:16 - 28:19
    don't think we can actually do anything
    meaningful about this. So people want an
  • 28:19 - 28:23
    independent investigation. I specifically
    did not include images of protest
  • 28:23 - 28:27
    brutality in my presentation. But if you
    think you can take the violence, I would
  • 28:27 - 28:32
    urge you to actually go look them up.
    There's a lot of material online. Hong
  • 28:32 - 28:35
    Kong Free Press has documented a lot of
    these cases and reports on the legal
  • 28:35 - 28:40
    follow up on them as well. This has not
    been good. And I think it's also something
  • 28:40 - 28:45
    that the violence was especially
    disproportionate and shocking for people
  • 28:45 - 28:49
    because people are used to being safe.
    People are not used to living in a country
  • 28:49 - 28:53
    where the police just comes and beats them
    up or where the police just put like
  • 28:53 - 28:57
    stomps their foot on the head of an
    arrested protester who's already lying on
  • 28:57 - 29:00
    the ground. They're not used to like
    watching police kicks, like just kick
  • 29:00 - 29:03
    someone who's already on the ground.
    They're also don't, ... they're also not
  • 29:03 - 29:09
    used to, ... they're also not used to
    police arresting teenagers. So, yeah,
  • 29:09 - 29:14
    that's number four. And number five is
    real universal sufefrage. This is currently
  • 29:14 - 29:20
    at 70 percent support in the broader
    population. So the idea is, essentially,
  • 29:20 - 29:25
    people say, we want that democracy that
    promised, if you meet us in 97 or what we
  • 29:25 - 29:30
    think you..., like that promise that we
    think you made us. We want that. And this
  • 29:30 - 29:31
    is also something that has been
    strengthened, especially over the past few
  • 29:31 - 29:36
    months, because until a year ago, maybe
    people thought it doesn't matter that much
  • 29:36 - 29:39
    if I elect the government because things
    will be fine and most people are competent
  • 29:39 - 29:42
    who are in government. But if the past
    seven months they've been watching a
  • 29:42 - 29:45
    government that essentially refused to
    listen to any of the protesters and
  • 29:45 - 29:51
    pretended like that none of their demands
    were in any way politically legitimate. So
  • 29:51 - 29:54
    now people like... now a lot of people who
    are fired a year ago saying, well, now we
  • 29:54 - 29:57
    need democracy because we've seen what
    happens if you have a government that
  • 29:57 - 30:01
    doesn't represent the people it's supposed
    to represent. I think this is an important
  • 30:01 - 30:06
    strategy because it means that everyone
    who goes out, knows what they're
  • 30:06 - 30:09
    protesting for. So since July, people have
    been going out on the streets and they
  • 30:09 - 30:14
    say: These are the five things we want.
    This is what we want. Nothing else.
  • 30:14 - 30:17
    Notably, independence is not part of this
    list, although the Chinese government
  • 30:17 - 30:22
    likes to say that the protesters are
    separatists. Independence is not a demand
  • 30:22 - 30:28
    of the movement and also has pretty low
    support in Hong Kong. But instead, because
  • 30:28 - 30:32
    you have these five demands, it's very
    catchy. People have even come up with the
  • 30:32 - 30:36
    protest slogan..., with a protest sign.
    Right? So whenever you see pictures of
  • 30:36 - 30:39
    protest, you will see people just holding
    up their hands like this because they're
  • 30:39 - 30:42
    like five demands. And then they put up
    another thing and they're saying not one
  • 30:42 - 30:47
    less. So that's one guiding slogan that
    they've been using. And it's been memed.
  • 30:47 - 30:53
    Everything gets memed in the Hong Kong
    protests. So, for example, if you're
  • 30:53 - 30:57
    disappointed with the new Star Wars movie,
    go to Hong Kong, because there's a lot of
  • 30:57 - 31:03
    very entertaining Star Wars content that
    includes protesters. So on the left, you
  • 31:03 - 31:08
    can see at the bottom again, it says five
    demands, not one less. And the image on
  • 31:08 - 31:24
    the right also has that in Chinese.
    Strategy number two. Be water. This is an
  • 31:24 - 31:28
    image by an artist,... that
    essentially,... so you've seen some of the
  • 31:28 - 31:32
    images where people cover their faces to
    protect themselves against tear gas. They
  • 31:32 - 31:37
    protect themselves so they can't be
    identified. And so there was a week when
  • 31:37 - 31:42
    people started drawing the Pokemons of the
    Hong Kong protests. And this was an image
  • 31:42 - 31:47
    for be water. Be water has essentially
    been a guiding principle of the movement
  • 31:47 - 31:52
    since the very beginning. And it's based
    on a Bruce Lee quote. He's a martial
  • 31:52 - 31:58
    artist. He was in a bunch of like kung fu
    films from Hong Kong. And he said, empty
  • 31:58 - 32:05
    your mind, be formless, shapeless, like
    water. Now you put water in a cup. It
  • 32:05 - 32:09
    becomes the cup. You put water in a
    bottle. It becomes the bottle. You put it
  • 32:09 - 32:16
    in a teapot. It becomes the teapot. Now
    water can flow or it can crash. So the
  • 32:16 - 32:20
    idea of be water is that you essentially
    accumulate and gather people in places
  • 32:20 - 32:24
    unexpectedly and very quickly and in the
    end you disappear as quickly as possible.
  • 32:24 - 32:28
    There were scenes where protests of
    thousands in the center of Hong Kong just
  • 32:28 - 32:33
    kind of like dissipated and disappeared
    into nothingness. This is how you can
  • 32:33 - 32:37
    avoid police capture in many cases. Right.
    Like you don't sit and you don't stay in a
  • 32:37 - 32:42
    place like people did with Occupy Central
    in 2014. You leave once the police turns
  • 32:42 - 32:46
    up, but you don't even have to wait for
    the police to show up to know that they're
  • 32:46 - 32:52
    coming. Because what people have started
    doing is that essentially you get maps
  • 32:52 - 32:56
    where they have,... or you have scouting
    channels first, where people, when they
  • 32:56 - 33:01
    see police, they just submit a report to
    the,... like to the telegram channel. So
  • 33:01 - 33:04
    there are bots where you can submit
    reports. You say, I've seen a police unit.
  • 33:04 - 33:10
    It's going from here to this place. That
    direction, this many policemen. And that
  • 33:10 - 33:12
    gets posted on a telegram channel with a
    hashtag for the location that there were
  • 33:12 - 33:19
    seen in. One person who I interviewed,
    who's middle class, doing really well. I
  • 33:19 - 33:21
    asked him what the protest changed about
    him. And he said it really changed my
  • 33:21 - 33:26
    frame of mind because now I got used to
    observing the deployment of police
  • 33:26 - 33:29
    whenever I see it. I got alerted to a
    siren and once I see it, I will
  • 33:29 - 33:38
    immediately send the info onto a telegram
    channel. These reports then also get
  • 33:38 - 33:48
    turned into maps. So this was Christmas
    Eve in Hong Kong. So people got a white
  • 33:48 - 33:52
    Christmas, not because there was snow, but
    because there was a lot of tear gas. And
  • 33:52 - 33:54
    the reports that people sent in are
    essentially turned into a map that you can
  • 33:54 - 34:01
    use to strategically avoid being captured
    by police. And also that, for example,
  • 34:01 - 34:04
    some relatives of mine wanted to go to
    Hong Kong and they said, well, we are
  • 34:04 - 34:07
    worried about going into areas of protest.
    And I was like, well, you can use this map
  • 34:07 - 34:11
    and you can avoid. You can see really
    easily in which, ... into which areas you
  • 34:11 - 34:14
    really shouldn't go. And basically, if
    there are a lot of icons in the place,
  • 34:14 - 34:18
    that means a lot of stuff is happening
    there. If there are ..., if you have like
  • 34:18 - 34:23
    the puppy logo, that means police units,
    cars means police cars. You see some water
  • 34:23 - 34:28
    drops kind of like in the middle towards
    the left. That means there's a water
  • 34:28 - 34:33
    cannon right there that you probably want
    to avoid. And there's also different signs
  • 34:33 - 34:39
    for the different police units. So they're
    Raptors. And those are predators, the
  • 34:39 - 34:44
    dinosaur logos. And in addition to that,
    you kind of have the, you know, at what
  • 34:44 - 34:49
    time the report was submitted, you can
    verify a report you see further down
  • 34:49 - 34:54
    towards the lower part of the map. There's
    a camera sign. And so that means that
  • 34:54 - 34:58
    there are life feeds from that place. So
    if you want to know what's going on at a
  • 34:58 - 35:01
    particular place, a lot of Hong Kong
    journalists are live streaming the
  • 35:01 - 35:03
    protests. And so you can go and just watch
    a livestream to see what's really
  • 35:03 - 35:07
    happening on the ground. Right like there.
    And there's even a Web site that compiles
  • 35:07 - 35:12
    up to nine live streams at the same time.
    So you can just watch all of them at the
  • 35:12 - 35:17
    same time on your screen to make sure you
    know what's happening. These maps are
  • 35:17 - 35:23
    extremely useful. And there is no way of
    saying how many people they've helped in
  • 35:23 - 35:27
    avoiding arrest. But one friend of mine
    who was talking to another protester in
  • 35:27 - 35:31
    July said, that he was going home from a
    protest, and he was wearing the
  • 35:31 - 35:34
    distinctive black shirts that protesters
    usually wear. He didn't have any change of
  • 35:34 - 35:40
    clothes and he wanted to avoid arrest. And
    he told his friends. And so within a few
  • 35:40 - 35:45
    minutes, they sent him a screenshot of
    Google Maps where you could just see where
  • 35:45 - 35:50
    they'd just shown him, this is your escape
    route. Just going around all the police
  • 35:50 - 35:53
    units that they could see on the map,
    using only open sourced, crowd sourced
  • 35:53 - 35:57
    information that was all made freely
    available online and that people put on
  • 35:57 - 36:16
    maps like this. Applause I think it's
    worth clapping for, like because these are
  • 36:16 - 36:22
    people's lives, right? If there are only
    10 people that got to escape police arrest
  • 36:22 - 36:25
    because of these things, we don't know to
    how many years those people could be sent
  • 36:25 - 36:28
    to the prison. They could just be sent its
    defiance. Maybe they could send us to
  • 36:28 - 36:31
    prison in three years. But all of that is
    time. All of that is time in people's
  • 36:31 - 36:35
    lives and the lives of people who have
    been going out to protest and all of that
  • 36:35 - 36:40
    was saved thanks to people crowdsourcing
    and open sourcing all of this information.
  • 36:40 - 36:43
    And that's an incredible effort that
    people have been making for months now and
  • 36:43 - 36:52
    an incredibly important institution that
    really has helped people. The next part of
  • 36:52 - 36:57
    be water is decentralized decision making.
    One of the reasons I talked about the
  • 36:57 - 37:00
    history of Hong Kong protests before and
    all of that political stuff is because I
  • 37:00 - 37:05
    think it's very important to understand
    where people are coming from. People of
  • 37:05 - 37:09
    all ages are protesting. But it's really
    young people who are disproportionally
  • 37:09 - 37:13
    against the government and against the
    bill. I think especially, ... I think
  • 37:13 - 37:18
    earlier in June or July, the numbers were
    that 59 percent of people under 16 oppose
  • 37:18 - 37:22
    the extradition bill. That's almost 100
    percent amongst people who are not even
  • 37:22 - 37:27
    eligible to vote. Not even close to being
    eligible to vote. But these people have
  • 37:27 - 37:32
    also been protesting for a very long time,
    and they've also learned from the past.
  • 37:32 - 37:35
    One thing that they've learned from 2014
    is that you if you're a leader, you get
  • 37:35 - 37:41
    arrested and you get put in prison. Joshua
    Wong, who you may have heard of, is one of
  • 37:41 - 37:45
    the people who that happened to him.
    Another person who that happened to his
  • 37:45 - 37:51
    Edward Lung, who was a leading figure of
    the fishbowl riots of 2016. He's currently
  • 37:51 - 37:56
    still serving time in prison. But how do
    you organize a movement without having
  • 37:56 - 38:04
    political leaders? You well, you do the
    whole crowd intelligence thing. Right.
  • 38:04 - 38:07
    Like you start having grassroots decision
    making, you have a leaderless movement.
  • 38:07 - 38:11
    Hong Kong is not the first time this has
    happened. The Gezi protests in Istanbul in
  • 38:11 - 38:18
    2013 were doing something similar. And now
    it's happening on Hong Kong. So you
  • 38:18 - 38:22
    have,... if you have no leaders, you have
    nobody who the government can arrest to
  • 38:22 - 38:26
    cripple the movement. They can maybe
    arrest one person. They can arrest a
  • 38:26 - 38:29
    hundred people. They can arrest 6000
    people. But all of those people are only
  • 38:29 - 38:34
    drops in the bigger movement and in that
    wave that we were talking about earlier.
  • 38:34 - 38:41
    So how does political decision making work
    if you have thousands of people? So there
  • 38:41 - 38:47
    are telegram groups primarily and there
    there's also a forum called LIHGK. That's
  • 38:47 - 38:51
    a bit like reddit. And then people just
    have political discussions on those. In
  • 38:51 - 38:56
    addition to that, people often have groups
    on whatsup. People have Facebook groups
  • 38:56 - 39:00
    like my parents are like probably not on
    telegram, but kind of like the equivalent
  • 39:00 - 39:06
    of the children. Their generation has
    groups on Facebook. And that's where
  • 39:06 - 39:09
    people are talking about what they think
    should happen, about strategic questions,
  • 39:09 - 39:13
    about questions in terms of what their
    aims should be. And so it's just kind of
  • 39:13 - 39:16
    happening on all these platforms. And so
    if you have an idea or if you have an
  • 39:16 - 39:19
    argument that you think is important, you
    share it. And if people agree with you,
  • 39:19 - 39:25
    they start sharing it further on. So
    decision making is kind of like,... has
  • 39:25 - 39:29
    like a snowball effect where you can see
    once you are in different groups like
  • 39:29 - 39:33
    arguments that people agree with keep
    reappearing, like in 10, 15, 20 groups or
  • 39:33 - 39:37
    people start rephrasing them. And so
    that's how we kind of like consensus is
  • 39:37 - 39:42
    often being built. At the same time, if
    you want to,... if you have an idea for a
  • 39:42 - 39:46
    really cool protest action such as you
    want people to form a human chain across
  • 39:46 - 39:49
    part of Hong Kong, which is something that
    they did and someone just came up with it
  • 39:49 - 39:53
    and posted about it online and then
    someone made a poster for it and more
  • 39:53 - 39:57
    people made posters and lots of people
    said this is a great idea. And so they
  • 39:57 - 40:01
    just did it. I hope that especially
    hackers can empathize with this idea that
  • 40:01 - 40:05
    someone has a cool idea, just does it. And
    then people recognize that it is cool and
  • 40:05 - 40:09
    kind of go along with it. And that's how a
    lot of the movement has been working for
  • 40:09 - 40:14
    the past few months as well. Another
    example of this is the December 1st
  • 40:14 - 40:19
    protest where thousands of people came out
    because someone, just like basically the
  • 40:19 - 40:23
    equivalent of a Reddit user in his 20s had
    just said, "well, I thought we should try
  • 40:23 - 40:26
    to have a protest again." And all of a
    sudden the government actually gave him
  • 40:26 - 40:30
    permission. And there were thousands of
    people, again, out on the streets because
  • 40:30 - 40:38
    anyone can register protest. One thing
    that's hard is decision-making. Some of
  • 40:38 - 40:41
    these groups have thousands of people. I
    think I'm in several telegram groups that
  • 40:41 - 40:48
    have maybe 60-70 thousand members. So
    often people use polling to essentially
  • 40:48 - 40:53
    make decisions. I don't know whether you
    know the poll function of telegram?
  • 40:53 - 40:57
    Basically, the admins can send in a poll
    and say these are your four options. Do
  • 40:57 - 41:02
    you think we should do A, B, C, or D and
    then just, kind of, vote. And that's how a
  • 41:02 - 41:06
    lot of the -- especially -- decision
    making and discussion on demands or
  • 41:06 - 41:12
    deadlines that people were trying to set
    was happening earlier in the movement. But
  • 41:12 - 41:17
    it's also something that people can use if
    they need to make strategic decisions
  • 41:17 - 41:24
    quickly on the spot. On August 12th,
    people occupied the Hong Kong airport,
  • 41:24 - 41:28
    which is an incredibly important
    international hub, and where they managed
  • 41:28 - 41:35
    to paralyze the entire airport. The Hong
    Kong government announced that day that
  • 41:35 - 41:40
    flights would stop taking off at 4 p.m.
    and there started being rumors that the
  • 41:40 - 41:45
    police would essentially come in and start
    clearing out the airport violently with
  • 41:45 - 41:49
    tear gas. And police was deploying
    increasingly more people towards the
  • 41:49 - 41:52
    airport. Because you have all these
    telegram channels, you see that people
  • 41:52 - 41:56
    take pictures of police. They post them
    and you see, "Oh, my God, all this police
  • 41:56 - 42:01
    is coming towards the airport, I am here.
    They cut off the metro. So you cannot take
  • 42:01 - 42:05
    the train back into the city. The Hong
    Kong airport is on an island. You cannot
  • 42:05 - 42:08
    get away from there." And so there was a
    lot of heated discussion back and forth
  • 42:08 - 42:12
    that day. And people were discussing, "Is
    it safe?" "Is it not safe?" And
  • 42:12 - 42:16
    ultimately, there was one channel that
    had, I think, 60000 followers and the
  • 42:16 - 42:21
    admins kept asking, should we stay or
    shall we go? And the ratios kept
  • 42:21 - 42:25
    changing towards leaving. And then
    suddenly it was 70 to 30 percent. And
  • 42:25 - 42:27
    people were like, OK, this is it, we're
    leaving. And that was kind of the moment
  • 42:27 - 42:32
    when you could see people changing their
    mind, right on the spot. There was nobody
  • 42:32 - 42:34
    who said, "We're now leaving," not a
    single person who said "We're now going
  • 42:34 - 42:39
    back." But just thousands of people who
    were watching and who said, "This looks
  • 42:39 - 42:44
    too dangerous. We need to stay safe and we
    need to go home." The result of that was a
  • 42:44 - 42:50
    mass exodus where people literally walked
    for hours, as you can see on this picture,
  • 42:50 - 42:54
    just across streets. Because, buses were
    full and stopped running, The metro had
  • 42:54 - 43:00
    stopped running, but they needed to get
    back home. One of the funniest things I
  • 43:00 - 43:06
    think that I've heard of as part of the be
    water and grassroots discussion strategy;
  • 43:06 - 43:10
    I was talking to Chiffon Young, who's the
    China correspondent for the German paper,
  • 43:10 - 43:15
    Die Zeit and she was reporting from a
    small group that was building street
  • 43:15 - 43:22
    blockades in Hong Kong. And there they
    were practicing grassroots decision making
  • 43:22 - 43:25
    in person. So, they built a blockade. They
    hear police is coming, so scouts are
  • 43:25 - 43:28
    telling them. They leave and they run to
    the metro. But then they need to know
  • 43:28 - 43:32
    where they're going next, because there's
    no plan. Because if you have no plan, the
  • 43:32 - 43:35
    police can't know your plan and can't wait
    for you there. But also, you have no plan.
  • 43:35 - 43:39
    So you have five people, 10 people who are
    just shouting at each other on the metro
  • 43:39 - 43:43
    platform. So one says "We want to go
    here," and the other person says "We're
  • 43:43 - 43:46
    going there." And maybe after five minutes
    of shouting, they decide; "OK, we have
  • 43:46 - 43:53
    reached consensus." Swarm intelligence. laughers
    But it works. It's chaotic, but it works
  • 43:53 - 43:59
    because it really makes it hard to figure
    out where people are. Another really hard
  • 43:59 - 44:04
    thing of this whole grassroots decision
    making and bottom up decision making has
  • 44:04 - 44:09
    been how do you correct course if you make
    mistakes? How do you correct those
  • 44:09 - 44:12
    mistakes, if there's nobody who can tell
    someone that they need to stop doing these
  • 44:12 - 44:16
    things? Again, this was something you
    could observe during the airport protests,
  • 44:16 - 44:23
    where people occupied the entire departure
    hall. And at some point -- I think they
  • 44:23 - 44:28
    said it was a citizen's arrest but -- they
    basically tied a person to one of those
  • 44:28 - 44:33
    luggage carts, who they thought was an
    undercover policeman from China, and beat
  • 44:33 - 44:38
    that person up. I think he was led away in
    the end, but it was an incredibly ugly
  • 44:38 - 44:44
    scene, and when you were watching it, it
    felt a lot like mob violence. But what
  • 44:44 - 44:47
    happened after? A lot of people were
    saying, well, "This is a sign that this
  • 44:47 - 44:51
    whole leaderless movement thing is not
    working. And you cannot actually change
  • 44:51 - 44:54
    anything about your behavior. There's
    nobody who can tell these people that they
  • 44:54 - 44:57
    need to change their mind." But what
    happened afterwards is that you saw the
  • 44:57 - 45:01
    same thing that I was describing earlier.
    People saw that this was bad. And people
  • 45:01 - 45:05
    agreed that that was bad! So people were
    going around and everyone kept encouraging
  • 45:05 - 45:10
    everyone else; "You need to be careful.
    Don't use violence. If you think someone
  • 45:10 - 45:13
    is an undercover cop, who's spying on you,
    you can't just beat that person up."
  • 45:13 - 45:17
    Afterwards, there was one scene where
    people ran into someone who they thought
  • 45:17 - 45:20
    was maybe a cop from mainland China. And
    so instead of beating him up, they all
  • 45:20 - 45:30
    stood around him and started taking selfies
    with him. cheerful laughter In addition to that,
  • 45:30 - 45:37
    increasingly you see people... pushing
    people, pulling people back. And so people
  • 45:37 - 45:43
    are saying, "Well, this is something you
    can't do, you can't attack this person."
  • 45:43 - 45:47
    So if there's a person who's tempers may
    be running really high, often there will
  • 45:47 - 45:50
    be people around the person who say, "No,
    we're going to pull you back." People
  • 45:50 - 45:54
    tried to write guidelines. They said you
    need to be careful about journalists.
  • 45:54 - 45:57
    Don't accuse people of being fake
    journalists, all these things. So was a
  • 45:57 - 46:02
    lot of like self correction and self
    control coming out of that moment. I
  • 46:02 - 46:04
    thought that was really interesting and
    really important because was one sign the
  • 46:04 - 46:09
    course correction can happen even if you
    have thousands of people. But it requires
  • 46:09 - 46:13
    everyone to participate and requires
    people to be willing to essentially
  • 46:13 - 46:24
    interrogate the things that they had done
    and also possibly admit mistakes. Strategy
  • 46:24 - 46:30
    four: anonymity. Again, I think it may be
    something that hackers can empathize with.
  • 46:30 - 46:34
    I know there is, as usual, a lot of talks
    about how to maintain your security and
  • 46:34 - 46:41
    anonymity online. For people in Hong Kong,
    this has become incredibly important. The
  • 46:41 - 46:45
    thing about feeling like your political
    system is being eroded and all the
  • 46:45 - 46:50
    securities and certainties and rights you
    had disappearing slowly is that you don't
  • 46:50 - 46:55
    know, months line has moved, so you don't
    blow anymore. A lot of people I've spoken
  • 46:55 - 46:59
    to don't feel like they can speak
    politically anymore so they don't know
  • 46:59 - 47:02
    what the consequences are going to be.
    Instead, what people do is they start
  • 47:02 - 47:05
    changing their names on their Facebook
    accounts, for example, because something
  • 47:05 - 47:09
    that they would have said openly like a
    year ago, they no longer dare to say under
  • 47:09 - 47:13
    their own name. There are people who've
    been fired probably for the things that
  • 47:13 - 47:20
    they said on Facebook, such as a person
    who was a union leader with a Hong Kong
  • 47:20 - 47:29
    airline, Cathay Pacific. So, anonymity is
    enforced both in person and online. Also,
  • 47:29 - 47:32
    again, through a lot of kind of like
    community control and people supporting
  • 47:32 - 47:36
    each other and essentially enforcing these
    rules with each other. Online it's very
  • 47:36 - 47:40
    much a social rule. So if you're kind of
    like in a working group on Telegram and
  • 47:40 - 47:43
    people are starting to chat kind of about
    personal stuff, then usually there will be
  • 47:43 - 47:46
    someone who tells everyone else, no, get
    back to work. Stop talking about that
  • 47:46 - 47:50
    stuff. You're disclosing too much about
    yourself. One phrase that people keep
  • 47:50 - 47:56
    using is they say there are ghosts. So the
    operational assumption is that in any
  • 47:56 - 47:58
    group, there will be someone who is
    listening. So you especially in these
  • 47:58 - 48:03
    bigger groups who cannot ever assume that
    there is no police in there. So you can do
  • 48:03 - 48:07
    your work, but assume that you're being
    watched while you're doing anything that
  • 48:07 - 48:12
    you're doing. Another thing that they're
    doing is that there are several channels
  • 48:12 - 48:18
    that are dedicated to cybersecurity. And
    there is one channel, for example, that
  • 48:18 - 48:21
    started passing around, kind of like JPEGs
    that had instructions for how to
  • 48:21 - 48:25
    set your telegram settings, because you
    need to assume that a lot of the people
  • 48:25 - 48:28
    who you're working with don't have a lot
    of interest necessarily in technology and
  • 48:28 - 48:32
    maybe have the highest priority going out
    to protest. And so it helps that there are
  • 48:32 - 48:36
    easy rules, Right? So people send around
    these instructions that say you toggle
  • 48:36 - 48:40
    these things on your telegram settings,
    make sure that nobody can see your phone
  • 48:40 - 48:44
    number who isn't already a contact of
    yours or you change this thing and that
  • 48:44 - 48:48
    means that your account essentially self-
    destructs if you're inactive for seven
  • 48:48 - 48:52
    days. And so in many ways, a lot of this
    is about the social kind of the social
  • 48:52 - 48:56
    enforcement and also breaking things down
    and making them assess as accessible as
  • 48:56 - 49:01
    possible. Another thing is that there's a
    telegram account that alerts people to
  • 49:01 - 49:05
    people who have been arrested. And the
    operational assumption is that if you've
  • 49:05 - 49:09
    been arrested, you're compromised. And so
    it posts the names and the telegram
  • 49:09 - 49:13
    handles the people who have been captured
    by police and tells people delete this
  • 49:13 - 49:16
    person's contact, like delete this person
    from all of your chats like you cannot
  • 49:16 - 49:19
    also be compromised. So that's another way
    they're trying to kind of maintain that
  • 49:19 - 49:26
    very basic security. I don't know how well
    this is working, to be very honest. I
  • 49:26 - 49:28
    haven't really heard any reports of people
    who have been arrested for stuff that
  • 49:28 - 49:34
    they've done on telegram. But that might
    also just be that it hasn't been reported
  • 49:34 - 49:37
    or we don't know about this. It's also
    possible that the police has been just
  • 49:37 - 49:42
    very busy mass arresting people at
    protests and that they have all this data
  • 49:42 - 49:46
    and they might be watching people. It
    might come back around to that later on.
  • 49:46 - 49:49
    Sometimes people have actually been able
    to identify the telegram handles or think
  • 49:49 - 49:55
    they've been able to identify the telegram
    handles of policemen, which led to several
  • 49:55 - 50:01
    people being kicked out of groups. But
    again, so the police is probably watching,
  • 50:01 - 50:06
    but we don't know how much information
    they have access to. In real life, you can
  • 50:06 - 50:12
    see kind of on the lower right corner, the
    usual outfit that people are wearing.
  • 50:12 - 50:16
    These are front liners who are tend to be
    more directly involved in clashes with the
  • 50:16 - 50:20
    police. That's the people who cover their
    faces with usually gas masks, sometimes
  • 50:20 - 50:25
    just simple surgical masks. They're
    wearing goggles and hard hats to protect
  • 50:25 - 50:31
    against projectiles, pepper spray, water
    cannons, tear gas, the things you
  • 50:31 - 50:35
    encounter in the streets of Hong Kong
    these days. In addition to that, people
  • 50:35 - 50:41
    have all of these umbrellas which they use
    to hide each other's identities. For
  • 50:41 - 50:44
    example, if people are building a street
    blockade, then you always have some people
  • 50:44 - 50:47
    who are building who kind of like building
    the blockade. And there's other people who
  • 50:47 - 50:50
    are holding up umbrellas to prevent them
    from being photographed, especially given
  • 50:50 - 50:55
    how much covered the protests are. This is
    especially important because there are
  • 50:55 - 50:58
    reporters and media around all the time
    and people want to make sure that they
  • 50:58 - 51:03
    don't accidentally end up on camera while
    committing what is probably a crime.
  • 51:03 - 51:09
    There's other ways this is being used as
    well. For example, when people were
  • 51:09 - 51:12
    destroying cameras in the metro stations
    in some cases because people were very
  • 51:12 - 51:16
    aware of the fact that they were being
    filmed by someone who they couldn't talk
  • 51:16 - 51:20
    to or people have asked individuals to
    delete pictures and videos when they've
  • 51:20 - 51:24
    seen them film them. But they've also
    destroyed essentially these cameras on the
  • 51:24 - 51:28
    metro. And again, then you will have
    someone kind of like cover you with an
  • 51:28 - 51:32
    umbrella to avoid a person being filmed in
    the middle of essentially committing
  • 51:32 - 51:41
    vandalism. The other thing is that people
    have these, so this kind of uniform, what
  • 51:41 - 51:44
    you can also see here, so people are
    essentially is wearing black for the
  • 51:44 - 51:48
    protests, which also means that you have
    no recognizable marks like on yourself,
  • 51:48 - 51:51
    like in the moment. And then when you kind
    of practice to be water, if you hear
  • 51:51 - 51:56
    police is coming, you go into a side
    street. And often there are people who are
  • 51:56 - 52:00
    not participating in the protests, like
    personally directly, but to, for example,
  • 52:00 - 52:05
    donate regular clothing. That's basically
    clothes like any clothes that aren't
  • 52:05 - 52:10
    black. This was particularly like in the
    summer when you had these mass protests,
  • 52:10 - 52:13
    like people would just bring T-shirts into
    metro stations. So people were often
  • 52:13 - 52:18
    leaving with the last train. And so people
    were just rushed to metro stations. You
  • 52:18 - 52:21
    kind of like see people changing inside
    streets to make sure they get out of those
  • 52:21 - 52:28
    very recognizable black gear and to
    essentially change into these clothes. So
  • 52:28 - 52:32
    HongKongers have basically managed to
    build the world's largest black block,
  • 52:32 - 52:38
    which is another way of maintaining
    anonymity.
  • 52:38 - 52:45
    Applause
    The government recognizes that this is a
  • 52:45 - 52:51
    problem for them. And they tried in
    October to address this by implementing a
  • 52:51 - 52:57
    mask ban. So they're essentially like the
    mask ban itself says that anyone who wears
  • 52:57 - 53:02
    a mask at a lawful rally or a march or an
    unlawful or unauthorized assembly or
  • 53:02 - 53:07
    during a riot. So even if you go to a
    peaceful protest, but you cover your face,
  • 53:07 - 53:11
    you can be sentenced up to one year in
    prison simply for trying to hide your
  • 53:11 - 53:17
    face. This is a law that was implemented
    under the emergency ordinance, which
  • 53:17 - 53:20
    essentially is kind of like a national
    security law that gives the government
  • 53:20 - 53:25
    sweeping powers in particular emergency
    situations. It is currently unclear to
  • 53:25 - 53:30
    what extent this is constitutional. So
    this mask ban has been challenged in court
  • 53:30 - 53:35
    multiple times and it's currently still
    making its way through the courts. But
  • 53:35 - 53:39
    it's also possible that basically Beijing
    might come in and say we have the ultimate
  • 53:39 - 53:43
    right to interpret the Hong Kong basic
    law. So we will say that this law has to
  • 53:43 - 53:47
    be constitutional. So this is something
    that we just need to wait out. But I think
  • 53:47 - 53:52
    it's a sign where we can see that the
    government wants to essentially limit
  • 53:52 - 53:55
    people's ability to maintain their
    anonymity. And people were really pissed
  • 53:55 - 53:58
    at this. Like this was announced on a
    Friday, just kind of like during the
  • 53:58 - 54:03
    workday. And after like in the afternoon,
    once people got off work, people went out
  • 54:03 - 54:08
    on the streets like people were just like
    turning up, like schoolchildren in the
  • 54:08 - 54:11
    school uniforms, people in their office
    clothing. Just everyone put on a mask and
  • 54:11 - 54:15
    was like, we want to keep this right,
    because that day at midnight, the mask ban
  • 54:15 - 54:19
    was supposed to be implemented. So you had
    less than 24 hours notice and it went into
  • 54:19 - 54:31
    force the next day. Strategy five:
    Division of Labor. This, again, is
  • 54:31 - 54:35
    something that I think is very interesting
    and uniquely Hong Kong, very uniquely Hong
  • 54:35 - 54:40
    Kong, like the be water strategy. So there
    is this idea climbing the hill in
  • 54:40 - 54:45
    different ways. This is again a lesson
    that people learn from through 2014,
  • 54:45 - 54:50
    because post 2014 and also in 2014 itself,
    one of the biggest weaknesses of the pro-
  • 54:50 - 54:54
    democracy movement was that there was a
    lot of internal division. People really
  • 54:54 - 54:59
    disagreed over tactics and there were
    fights over who was leading the movement
  • 54:59 - 55:04
    and who should be listened to and what the
    right strategy was. People have now kind
  • 55:04 - 55:08
    of come to the opposite extreme. But
    people are saying whatever you do,
  • 55:08 - 55:11
    everyone is climbing the mountains.
    Everyone's trying to get to the top and
  • 55:11 - 55:15
    everyone's using their own ways of getting
    there. And everyone's using their own
  • 55:15 - 55:22
    their own path, essentially. Hence the
    mountain imagery. I think one example that
  • 55:22 - 55:27
    really illustrates this very clearly was a
    person who's kind of like middle aged and
  • 55:27 - 55:30
    works in the finance industry in Hong
    Kong. So they're very well off, have
  • 55:30 - 55:35
    profited from the system as it exists and
    but also support the protests. And they
  • 55:35 - 55:38
    said I did not get involved in the
    protesters destructive actions and I would
  • 55:38 - 55:43
    never. But I will try my best to give them
    more support and delivering materials,
  • 55:43 - 55:48
    donations and my presence. So you can see
    that there's a very clear differentiation
  • 55:48 - 55:53
    between the goal that people have and kind
    of like the methods, like there's a lot of
  • 55:53 - 55:55
    people who say, I disagree with those
    methods, but essentially I will not
  • 55:55 - 56:01
    undermine people who are working towards
    our same goal – the five demands – in
  • 56:01 - 56:07
    different ways. This is also something
    that's notable because in 2016, violence
  • 56:07 - 56:12
    was something that was condemned. I cannot
    speak to that many other contexts but for
  • 56:12 - 56:16
    example, in the US, where I study, and
    similarly in Germany, once protesters use
  • 56:16 - 56:20
    violence, even if it is just destruction
    of things, often there is a lot of
  • 56:20 - 56:23
    pushback and people say that has
    delegitimized you. This is something that
  • 56:23 - 56:27
    is not really working that well in Hong
    Kong anymore. So there are clearly people
  • 56:27 - 56:31
    who disagree with vandalism and also there
    people who are against the protesters
  • 56:31 - 56:35
    because of vandalism, that's very clear.
    Based on the polls, I would say maybe 30,
  • 56:35 - 56:39
    40 percent, but I'd have to check the
    exact numbers. But there are a lot of
  • 56:39 - 56:43
    people who say, even if I disagree with
    you, I will still support you, because our
  • 56:43 - 56:56
    overall goal is what is most important. Applause
    I want to give two examples quickly of how
  • 56:56 - 57:03
    this can work. So one example of this is
    that people have gained an increasing
  • 57:03 - 57:06
    economic understanding of how politics
    works. So rather than saying we just want
  • 57:06 - 57:12
    to change laws, there also say we need to
    attack, for example, and we need to hold
  • 57:12 - 57:18
    accountable companies that are supporting
    the government and we need to make people
  • 57:18 - 57:24
    and government supporting companies make
    feel the pain for essentially their
  • 57:24 - 57:28
    political support for them. So people have
    started boycotting stores that don't
  • 57:28 - 57:31
    support the protests. And again, this is
    something that is all collected online
  • 57:31 - 57:36
    where you have these incredible resources,
    where you have entire maps. So, you know,
  • 57:36 - 57:39
    you can make these custom Google Maps. So
    there's custom Google Maps that tell you
  • 57:39 - 57:44
    which stores in Hong Kong support the
    protests. And there's entire lists for
  • 57:44 - 57:48
    different sectors where, for example, like
    for food, it says these stores are for us
  • 57:48 - 57:52
    and these stores are against us. And one
    of the people I spoke to was incredibly
  • 57:52 - 57:57
    amazed at this. They're almost 40 years
    old. They've lived in Hong Kong for a long
  • 57:57 - 58:02
    time and were often very frustrated with
    how unpolitical the city was. But they
  • 58:02 - 58:06
    said now it's the exact opposite and
    everything has become political. So they
  • 58:06 - 58:08
    said wherever you get your lunch, where
    you get your coffee, even what kind of
  • 58:08 - 58:12
    public transport you take, everything is
    now political and everything you use to
  • 58:12 - 58:16
    show which political side you're on. And
    the idea is really to essentially hurt
  • 58:16 - 58:20
    stores that much that it becomes unviable
    to be against the protest movement
  • 58:20 - 58:27
    economically. Some people also use the
    lists for essentially vandalism against
  • 58:27 - 58:30
    stores. This is special. Been seen with,
    for example, Starbucks because the people
  • 58:30 - 58:34
    who own the Starbucks franchise in Hong
    Kong have very vocally opposed the
  • 58:34 - 58:38
    protests. And so in some cases, that means
    also hurting them financially by throwing
  • 58:38 - 58:51
    in windows. Applause Another example was the
    same person who I spoke to had by the time I
  • 58:51 - 58:55
    spoke to them a couple of weeks ago,
    stopped going out to protests. And this
  • 58:55 - 59:00
    really surprised me because I met them
    during the protests in 2014. And I thought
  • 59:00 - 59:03
    if there was one person who's middle aged
    and who would still go out, then that's
  • 59:03 - 59:07
    you – in terms of the people who I know –
    but they were like, well, I decided that I
  • 59:07 - 59:11
    have different skills and that my design
    skills are something that I can use better
  • 59:11 - 59:14
    in a different place. And so because at
    the time, people were already working
  • 59:14 - 59:18
    towards the district council elections and
    they were still working, I don't know
  • 59:18 - 59:22
    what, like 60 hour weeks or something
    crazy. But they decided that they would
  • 59:22 - 59:26
    start working with a campaign for one of
    the local, for one of the people who was a
  • 59:26 - 59:29
    candidate for the district council, who
    was a person who had never been in
  • 59:29 - 59:34
    politics before. And this interview was
    like, well, I can help this person. I'm
  • 59:34 - 59:37
    going to be able to help them get elected.
    And so they went, essentially did social
  • 59:37 - 59:41
    media and like a lot of campaigning or
    designing for them. And that's kind of
  • 59:41 - 59:45
    like a good sign. I think that's a good
    example for the different types of effort
  • 59:45 - 59:50
    that went into that district council
    election victory as well. Right. So
  • 59:50 - 59:51
    there's all these people who made a choice
    that this is something that they care
  • 59:51 - 59:56
    about and that again, they're all climbing
    the mountain in different ways. And these
  • 59:56 - 60:00
    people decided that their way is
    supporting local politicians to get
  • 60:00 - 60:10
    elected into the district councils. The
    other thing is that this division of labor
  • 60:10 - 60:12
    doesn't only happen in kind of like in
    terms of what you choose that you're
  • 60:12 - 60:19
    doing, but that's also an incredibly
    sophisticated and very well defined
  • 60:19 - 60:23
    division of labor. So this is kind of like
    a representation of kind of what the
  • 60:23 - 60:26
    movement is supposed to be like. So
    there's this idea that like we're all Hong
  • 60:26 - 60:28
    Kongers and we're all part of this
    movement and it doesn't matter what we're
  • 60:28 - 60:31
    doing, we're all part of the same thing.
    And so that's kind of like a diversity
  • 60:31 - 60:35
    that gets represented a lot. And that kind
    of appears in a lot of protest art as
  • 60:35 - 60:42
    well. The most distinctive group that
    you've definitely seen are frontliners. So
  • 60:42 - 60:46
    this is these are people who wear kind of
    like the most recognizable uniform,
  • 60:46 - 60:49
    they're all in black so they cannot be
    identified, they wear gas masks to protect
  • 60:49 - 60:54
    themselves against pepper spray and tear
    gas, goggles for the same reason, hard
  • 60:54 - 61:02
    hats, they often have gloves to be able to
    grab teargas canisters that are being
  • 61:02 - 61:07
    thrown at them. In some cases, they have
    water bottles to extinguish the tear gas
  • 61:07 - 61:12
    canisters to essentially avoid being
    affected by the tear gas itself. And this
  • 61:12 - 61:16
    is kind of like how you signal that
    you're, sometimes they're called the
  • 61:16 - 61:20
    Braves, but essentially, this is about as
    radical as you can look as part of the
  • 61:20 - 61:22
    Hong Kong protest movement. These are the
    people who are going to be in clashes with
  • 61:22 - 61:27
    police. You can see that one of them is
    about to probably grab a brick. But these
  • 61:27 - 61:37
    are frontliners. One particular type of
    front liner are the – I'm missing the
  • 61:37 - 61:42
    English word right now – basically there's
    the people are supposed to extinguish
  • 61:42 - 61:49
    fires usually. Firefighters, yes. Sorry.
    Firefighters, except instead of fighting
  • 61:49 - 61:55
    fire, they're fighting teargas and so on
    the right, you can see someone from an
  • 61:55 - 61:59
    incredibly iconic scene where someone used
    like a metal tin that they usually use to
  • 61:59 - 62:03
    steam fish and he like he extinguished the
    teargas with water and then put the metal
  • 62:03 - 62:08
    tin just on the teargas. And people were
    making fun for like how protest ready
  • 62:08 - 62:15
    people are just by having your regular
    Chinese kitchen. On the left this is a
  • 62:15 - 62:18
    reference to a strategy that people have
    been using and where essentially they put
  • 62:18 - 62:23
    a traffic cone on a tear gas canister the
    moment like they find it. And so one
  • 62:23 - 62:28
    person holds the traffic cone. One person
    puts water in at the top to extinguish the
  • 62:28 - 62:31
    tear gas. And then some cases, people also
    put it into plastic bags that are full
  • 62:31 - 62:36
    with water twisting or tear gas and in
    some cases, throw it back at the police.
  • 62:36 - 62:39
    And I think I have a video of this
    happening, actually.
  • 62:39 - 63:16
    Video playing
    It's also you can see they didn't do this
  • 63:16 - 63:23
    for the first time, right? So they've been
    doing this for a while. It's sad in many
  • 63:23 - 63:26
    ways that these are young people who have
    to do that and who feel that it's like a
  • 63:26 - 63:30
    thing that they need to do to be able to
    be heard. But it's also something that was
  • 63:30 - 63:33
    a video out of Chile a couple of weeks ago
    where essentially Chilean protesters were
  • 63:33 - 63:37
    using a similar strategy to extinguish
    tear gas. And someone who was apparently
  • 63:37 - 63:40
    from Chile posted it somewhere saying,
    thank you, Hong Kong. So they clearly
  • 63:40 - 63:44
    there's been some like, oh, let's see how
    we can adopt these strategies for what's
  • 63:44 - 63:47
    happening in Chile itself, which I think
    is an important thing to look at as well,
  • 63:47 - 63:51
    because in some ways, Hong Kongers have
    learned from other places but also now
  • 63:51 - 63:53
    people are looking at Hong Kong and
    looking at these strategies and adopting
  • 63:53 - 64:00
    them in other instances. Another important
    group are peaceful protesters. I am very
  • 64:00 - 64:03
    thankful that someone memed all of them,
    all of the important group, so I have
  • 64:03 - 64:06
    these like standard images that I can use.
    And this is really the only thing that you
  • 64:06 - 64:10
    kind of like need for a peaceful
    protester. You just need a surgical mask,
  • 64:10 - 64:15
    maybe a hat to protect your identity a bit
    more. And that's it. You just need to go
  • 64:15 - 64:19
    out in the street. These are the people
    who frontliners in many ways feel like
  • 64:19 - 64:24
    they're defending. When I was talking to a
    few people who are still in high school
  • 64:24 - 64:27
    and who essentially are frontliners and
    who've been in clashes with the police
  • 64:27 - 64:30
    directly and when I asked them why they're
    doing it, they're saying I don't even know
  • 64:30 - 64:35
    whether we can get our political aims, but
    the very least I can do is I can be one
  • 64:35 - 64:38
    more person who is there and when the
    police advances, I'm going to be one more
  • 64:38 - 64:41
    person who can make sure that the police
    doesn't get to the peaceful protesters
  • 64:41 - 64:44
    behind me, because they're not equipped to
    deal with teargas and they're not equipped
  • 64:44 - 64:48
    to deal with that pepper spray. So I will
    be here and I will give them enough time
  • 64:48 - 65:02
    so they can retreat and go home. But
    there's a lot of kind of like lionization
  • 65:02 - 65:05
    of frontliners because they're kind of
    like the heroes of the movement, they're
  • 65:05 - 65:10
    flashy heroes. But also everyone knows
    that the movement is not going to succeed
  • 65:10 - 65:15
    in any way, it wasn't be able to keep
    going because just of frontliners, right.
  • 65:15 - 65:19
    So peaceful protesters are essentially the
    heart of the movement as well, the people
  • 65:19 - 65:23
    who keep coming out in numbers. So there's
    a lot of reminders that we all need to
  • 65:23 - 65:28
    work together. This is kind of this idea,
    we cannot be divided. So it goes back to
  • 65:28 - 65:31
    this idea: we all climb the mountain in
    different ways, right. So we are all
  • 65:31 - 65:36
    important. And in both of these kind of
    like pieces of art you can see now, right,
  • 65:36 - 65:39
    you can see the recognizable frontliner on
    the left in both cases because he has the
  • 65:39 - 65:43
    hard hat and a bit more gear is kind of
    like ready to get into a fight with the
  • 65:43 - 65:46
    police. But next to the frontliner you in
    both cases have someone who just put on a
  • 65:46 - 65:51
    mask, maybe came straight from the office,
    maybe straight from school. And those
  • 65:51 - 65:54
    people are working together because if
    only if you had only one of those, you
  • 65:54 - 66:05
    probably wouldn't be able to keep going
    for half a year. Applause Another group that I
  • 66:05 - 66:12
    think is really interesting is logistics,
    because people have now adopted all all
  • 66:12 - 66:14
    these strategies to how they can kind of
    like deal with the things that police is
  • 66:14 - 66:19
    throwing at them. So a year ago or even
    couple of months ago, teargas was still
  • 66:19 - 66:24
    something that kind of like made people
    leave and made people go away. A water
  • 66:24 - 66:27
    cannon would scare people away, but people
    have really adapted and teargas doesn't do
  • 66:27 - 66:32
    that much in Hong Kong anymore, to be very
    honest. One person who's 19 and who I talk
  • 66:32 - 66:35
    to and was like, doesn't the teargas
    stink. And they were like, well, the first
  • 66:35 - 66:45
    time, yes, but then you get used to it and
    you just keep going. And to do that, you
  • 66:45 - 66:48
    need kind of all this gear, right? Like,
    you need to be equipped. You need to have
  • 66:48 - 66:51
    hardhats. You need to have all these
    umbrellas. And so there are people kind of
  • 66:51 - 66:53
    like in the background for collecting
    material near a big protest sites where
  • 66:53 - 66:56
    they know there will be protests and then
    they're carrying them, kind of like in
  • 66:56 - 67:01
    cartons. In some cases, they're collecting
    different types of shields. And so when it
  • 67:01 - 67:04
    comes to a clash with the police, they
    make sure that stuff gets passed on to the
  • 67:04 - 67:07
    front lines. I didn't include it in the
    presentation, but there's incredible
  • 67:07 - 67:11
    videos of, in some cases, maybe a
    kilometer long human chain where you just
  • 67:11 - 67:15
    have like tons of peaceful protesters,
    like passing things on to make sure that
  • 67:15 - 67:19
    things get to the people who were in the
    clash with the police. And logistics are
  • 67:19 - 67:21
    the people who make sure that the stuff is
    around. It is kind of like at these
  • 67:21 - 67:26
    collection points and is then given to the
    people who really need it. It's also, one
  • 67:26 - 67:30
    person I spoke to who does a lot of
    logistics said I am not someone who would
  • 67:30 - 67:34
    fight with the police in this movement,
    but I still want to give some help. And so
  • 67:34 - 67:39
    I decided to manage resources such as
    medical resources or protest gear. And so
  • 67:39 - 67:42
    medical resources, for example, might be
    like saline solution, which you can use to
  • 67:42 - 67:47
    wash people's eyes out if they have been
    affected by pepper spray or teargas. And
  • 67:47 - 67:50
    so this is someone who said, I am not a
    frontliner and I'm not going to be part of
  • 67:50 - 67:56
    that. But I will be right there. I think
    these people are doing important work. I'm
  • 67:56 - 68:00
    going to do exactly what I can within my
    power to make sure that they have what
  • 68:00 - 68:12
    they need. Applause First aiders are incredibly
    important in the movement as well, because
  • 68:12 - 68:17
    people have started to mistrust hospitals
    a lot, because people are worried that the
  • 68:17 - 68:21
    government might go and get their hospital
    records. So if they get injured as part of
  • 68:21 - 68:25
    a clash with police, that might include
    getting beaten up by police. There've been
  • 68:25 - 68:29
    people, there was one person who was shot
    in the chest and who tried to run from the
  • 68:29 - 68:34
    police, almost succeeded, but then was
    arrested. But so if someone like that
  • 68:34 - 68:39
    doesn't trust the hospitals, doesn't go to
    a hospital, first aiders are the ones who
  • 68:39 - 68:43
    are going to treat those injuries. So
    these people are around and are visibly
  • 68:43 - 68:48
    marked as first aiders and make sure that
    people get as much medical treatment as
  • 68:48 - 68:52
    they need to the extent that they're able
    to. There was one incredibly hard
  • 68:52 - 68:56
    situation for them, I think in November,
    when people were occupying the Chinese
  • 68:56 - 69:00
    University of Hong Kong. And there was a
    real battle where you basically had a
  • 69:00 - 69:05
    front line, like you kind of see it in
    like movies where someone is trying to
  • 69:05 - 69:08
    take in a castle or something like that,
    right. So the real battle line where
  • 69:08 - 69:12
    people kept getting hit and injured and
    first aiders kept running in and out,
  • 69:12 - 69:15
    grabbing people and carrying them to a big
    sports field that was just full of injured
  • 69:15 - 69:24
    people where they were treating all of
    them. And all of these are volunteers.
  • 69:24 - 69:31
    applause
    There's more people in the background, and
  • 69:31 - 69:35
    I could keep going about this, my friends
    will be able to attest to the fact that I
  • 69:35 - 69:40
    can talk about this for an hour or longer.
    I think one other group of people that I
  • 69:40 - 69:44
    wanted to quickly talk about are the
    people who drive like the school buses.
  • 69:44 - 69:50
    School buses are code for cars that go to
    protest sites and pick people up. So for
  • 69:50 - 69:55
    example, when the people were stuck, or
    people were stuck at the airport, you
  • 69:55 - 69:59
    could see that literally thousands of
    Hongkongers grab their own cars and just
  • 69:59 - 70:03
    drove out and said we will pick people up.
    And so they post on Telegram and they say,
  • 70:03 - 70:08
    hey, I'm a parent, I'm going to pick up my
    children. I have space for three people
  • 70:08 - 70:13
    laughs And then there's even there's
    also code for. So this why used that image
  • 70:13 - 70:18
    cause it's like the parents taking care of
    the kids. It's a very, very wholesome
  • 70:18 - 70:24
    imagery. And they have this, this code
    essentially where they're saying: if you
  • 70:24 - 70:29
    say that you have stationery in your car,
    that means that you have clothes to change
  • 70:29 - 70:32
    in. So if someone is wearing all black you
    have some other clothes that they can
  • 70:32 - 70:36
    change in. And so there's entire telegram
    channels where just every post is just
  • 70:36 - 70:39
    someone going from A to B. It says when
    they're leaving, it says how much space
  • 70:39 - 70:46
    they have. It also often says if there's a
    female driver so people can feel safe. And
  • 70:46 - 70:49
    to make sure that you don't get accidently
    picked up by undercover cops people are
  • 70:49 - 70:54
    maintaining an inofficial database of cars
    that they've identified to undercover cop
  • 70:54 - 70:58
    cars. And so there's a telegram bot. And
    if you like, so these posters, once you
  • 70:58 - 71:02
    have someone's license plate, you go to
    the bot and you're like, is this a cop and
  • 71:02 - 71:13
    the bot will tell you yes or no.
    applause
  • 71:13 - 71:20
    In addition to that you have thousands,
    countless working groups where people are
  • 71:20 - 71:25
    just kind of working around the clock.
    This is an example of a PR translation
  • 71:25 - 71:32
    working group that basically translated
    this particular poster from originally
  • 71:32 - 71:36
    Chinese into a bunch of languages, one of
    them is German on the left, another is
  • 71:36 - 71:41
    Korean on the right. And it says: Hong Kong
    is facing a humanitarian crisis. What I
  • 71:41 - 71:43
    think is interesting about this is that
    some of these groups are basically working
  • 71:43 - 71:49
    around the clock. So something happens in
    Hong Kong during the day, by evening often
  • 71:49 - 71:52
    protest art comes out that kind of like is
    reframing an incident or is trying to
  • 71:52 - 71:57
    explain what purchases did if they feel
    like they need to explain themselves. And
  • 71:57 - 72:01
    then when Hongkongers sleep, people who
    live in Europe, but who many cases are
  • 72:01 - 72:05
    still from Hong Kong and people who live
    in the United States work through their
  • 72:05 - 72:12
    evenings and through their mornings. So by
    the time Hongkongers wake up, they often
  • 72:12 - 72:15
    can have these messages in different
    languages. And so this happened doing the
  • 72:15 - 72:20
    airport protest, where on the 13th of the
    morning, people just woke up and had
  • 72:20 - 72:23
    posters in like ten different languages
    that explain what was happened in Hong
  • 72:23 - 72:31
    Kong, printed them and went to the airport
    straight away at 8:00 a.m..
  • 72:31 - 72:35
    applause
    I want to share one more story, because I
  • 72:35 - 72:40
    think this is really one of the most gut
    wrenching examples of what people have
  • 72:40 - 72:44
    been able to achieve just by cooperating
    and also by being completely anonymous
  • 72:44 - 72:50
    together, where during the Pope, Poly,
    during the siege at the Polytechnic
  • 72:50 - 72:53
    University, Hong Kong. So when hundreds of
    people were stuck on that university and
  • 72:53 - 72:59
    didn't want to go out. Suzanne Sataline
    reported for Quartz that there was at
  • 72:59 - 73:02
    least one person and probably more who
    managed to get out from the university
  • 73:02 - 73:06
    through the sewers. So this person went
    down into the sewers, wading through
  • 73:06 - 73:11
    probably knee, like kind of chest high
    waste water, in the dark, not knowing
  • 73:11 - 73:14
    where they were going. And then actually
    were able to escape the university that
  • 73:14 - 73:19
    way. Because they were talking to people
    on telegram who had dug up maps of the
  • 73:19 - 73:22
    Hong Kong sewage system and like directed
    this person, they were telling them, this
  • 73:22 - 73:27
    is where you go. You hit kind of like, you
    hit like a crossroads and then you take a
  • 73:27 - 73:31
    left, like this is where you take a right.
    And then the last moment they actually,
  • 73:31 - 73:34
    the plans were changed. And so they were
    told, you cannot go to the exit we
  • 73:34 - 73:38
    initially told you because we've seen
    police there. Right? Telegram channels,
  • 73:38 - 73:41
    again, like all of this comes back
    together. And so they're watching police
  • 73:41 - 73:44
    moving in that you can't go there. There's
    police there. Instead, we need to send you
  • 73:44 - 73:47
    to a different exit. So he goes to that
    exit and there's someone there waiting for
  • 73:47 - 73:54
    him who lifts, who lifts the lid, lets him
    out of the fucking sewage system. And then
  • 73:54 - 73:57
    there's people waiting for them there, a
    "school bus" who grabs them and takes them
  • 73:57 - 74:01
    somewhere else. And that's how he got out
    of the university. And he still doesn't
  • 74:01 - 74:11
    know any of those people. They're all
    still strangers.
  • 74:11 - 74:16
    applause
    The strategy number 6, that I think is
  • 74:16 - 74:20
    important, are counter narratives. So the
    Hong Kong government and the Beijing
  • 74:20 - 74:24
    government have a very clear framing for
    what how they want to frame the entire
  • 74:24 - 74:27
    protest, right. So they want to say these
    are vandals, these are rioters, they have
  • 74:27 - 74:31
    no legitimate demands, they just want to
    destroy things, nothing about them is
  • 74:31 - 74:36
    legitimate, or democratic, or politically
    justified in any way. People realize that
  • 74:36 - 74:41
    maybe memes are nice, but memes are maybe
    not enough. So part of the movement,
  • 74:41 - 74:48
    actually Kim, started creating a citizen's
    press conference where people anonymously
  • 74:48 - 74:51
    basically hold a press conference. And you
    can see that press is coming there, right,
  • 74:51 - 74:55
    because you have all the official mics.
    And so all these new media outlets
  • 74:55 - 74:59
    actually going there and talking to them.
    In the background you have someone who's
  • 74:59 - 75:03
    interpreting this into sign language.
    Because they essentially know we need to,
  • 75:03 - 75:07
    at least somehow, try to get control of
    the narrative again ourselves to make sure
  • 75:07 - 75:15
    there's not just a government who gets to
    define what is happening. The last
  • 75:15 - 75:20
    strategy that I want to talk about is
    related to both counter narratives, but
  • 75:20 - 75:23
    also to organizing and mobilizing, which
    is the last thing that I want to talk
  • 75:23 - 75:29
    about. So as an introduction to that, I
    want to show you a video that in many ways
  • 75:29 - 75:33
    I think demonstrates some of the capacity
    that people have been able to build. What
  • 75:33 - 75:39
    I'm going to show you is a protest
    anthem called Glory for Hong Kong. As I
  • 75:39 - 75:42
    said earlier, Hong Kong was a city that
    was first under colonial rule by the
  • 75:42 - 75:48
    British and is now under rule by China
    without people really getting a choice at
  • 75:48 - 75:54
    any point. And so in early September
    people crowdsourced an anthem for the city
  • 75:54 - 75:59
    online and someone composed it and
    published it on September 11th. And
  • 75:59 - 76:40
    several days later someone had arranged
    for an orchestra. And right after that
  • 76:40 - 78:05
    this video went online.
    Video plays (orchestra/choir)applause
  • 78:05 - 78:09
    I think everyone who is interested in the
    meaning of that song, I would recommend
  • 78:09 - 78:12
    that you go and read Vivienne Chow's
    article about it in The New York Times
  • 78:12 - 78:17
    because she wrote from a musical and
    cultural perspective about what it meant
  • 78:17 - 78:20
    for her to have grown up in a city where
    there was never a song that she identified
  • 78:20 - 78:23
    with. And for this to be the first time,
    that was kind of like an anthem for what
  • 78:23 - 78:30
    she considers her home. So I would
    recommend you all go and read that. In the
  • 78:30 - 78:32
    long term a lot of the strategies that
    I've talked about have been able to
  • 78:32 - 78:36
    sustain the movement and have been able to
    help people and individuals avoid arrest
  • 78:36 - 78:40
    in the short term. But the question is how
    sustainable this entire movement is in the
  • 78:40 - 78:47
    long run. I think the orchestra it's like
    a fun, they call themselves Black
  • 78:47 - 78:53
    Blorchestra, by the way. It's a fun
    example of how people can just get tons of
  • 78:53 - 78:56
    people together and suddenly come up with
    an entire orchestra and fund that entire
  • 78:56 - 79:01
    thing with like pretty good production
    value, I just downloaded a shitty version.
  • 79:01 - 79:05
    But, so that's happening, right, people
    are building all these groups, building
  • 79:05 - 79:08
    all these new ties. A lot of times they
    building these ties with people who they
  • 79:08 - 79:13
    don't know and who are anonymous to them.
    But in a lot of other cases, one person
  • 79:13 - 79:17
    who I spoke to said that essentially
    they've started exercising together as a
  • 79:17 - 79:22
    neighborhood because he says that we
    cannot trust the police to save us. And if
  • 79:22 - 79:24
    someone from the government comes to
    attack us we want to be able to defend
  • 79:24 - 79:29
    ourselves. So then he's also like
    organizing this in kind of like small
  • 79:29 - 79:32
    neighborhood groups. So there's all these
    people who have lived in an anonymous
  • 79:32 - 79:36
    major metropolis for years and probably
    barely talk to each other, but who now
  • 79:36 - 79:40
    basically getting together and starting to
    do things together and trying to keep
  • 79:40 - 79:44
    these things going to protect themselves.
    Another thing is that there has been a
  • 79:44 - 79:50
    push for building and creating unions. So
    labor unions, more than 24 have been
  • 79:50 - 79:55
    formed its entire year across a range of
    sectors. There were several attempts at
  • 79:55 - 79:59
    organizing strikes in Hong Kong over the
    summer and a lot of those weren't very
  • 79:59 - 80:03
    successful because people still went to
    work in many cases. But so people are
  • 80:03 - 80:07
    essentially organizing more long term and
    trying to get people to join unions, so
  • 80:07 - 80:14
    they have organizing capacity for the long
    run. And again, this is a picture from the
  • 80:14 - 80:18
    district council elections. It's
    incredibly important to recognize the
  • 80:18 - 80:24
    organizational capacity that went into the
    elections. There are all these people out
  • 80:24 - 80:28
    there now that know how to mobilize and
    have now partaken in like a political
  • 80:28 - 80:32
    campaign and the electoral campaign and
    all of that is knowledge that now exists
  • 80:32 - 80:35
    amongst young people, amongst older
    people. And all of these are organizations
  • 80:35 - 80:44
    and things that hopefully people will be
    able to build on in the long run. So what
  • 80:44 - 80:48
    next? I think it's important to recognize
    that what people have been able to do in
  • 80:48 - 80:52
    Hong Kong is incredible from an
    organizational capacity and also has meant
  • 80:52 - 80:56
    that people have given up a lot. In many
    cases. And people have gone broke, there
  • 80:56 - 80:58
    are young people who have been kicked out
    of their homes by their parents because
  • 80:58 - 81:02
    they don't see eye to eye politically.
    Some people have just spent all their
  • 81:02 - 81:07
    money on protest gear. Other people are
    facing charges of up to 10 years in
  • 81:07 - 81:09
    prison. And because of the incredible
    backlog, might not know for a very long
  • 81:09 - 81:14
    time what's going to happen. People are
    scared of the police. And so one big
  • 81:14 - 81:18
    question is how things will be able to
    keep going. And I think one thing that if
  • 81:18 - 81:21
    you talk to someone from Hong Kong who was
    part of the protest movement and that's
  • 81:21 - 81:25
    also incredibly important to recognize
    that everyone in Hong Kong, both, also
  • 81:25 - 81:28
    people on both sides, right. Like everyone
    in Hong Kong, these are people and these
  • 81:28 - 81:33
    are not people who are just kind of like
    acting out like a geopolitical game, like
  • 81:33 - 81:36
    risk or something, but these are real
    people there who are really going to the
  • 81:36 - 81:43
    limits in many cases. More specifically
    there is a rally planned and announced for
  • 81:43 - 81:48
    January 1st. They're still waiting for
    their letter of no objection, which means
  • 81:48 - 81:53
    they don't know yet whether it will be a
    legal rally or not. And so this is really
  • 81:53 - 81:56
    going to be them trying, their movement
    trying to show that they're going to be
  • 81:56 - 82:02
    able to keep going through 2020 and maybe
    longer. The unrest and discontent is not
  • 82:02 - 82:06
    going to go away. I think that's very
    clear. So many people have been
  • 82:06 - 82:10
    politicized over the past few months and
    so many people have lost trust in their in
  • 82:10 - 82:13
    their government and in very fundamental
    institutions such as hospitals and the
  • 82:13 - 82:18
    police. And that's something that's not
    just going to go away because that's going
  • 82:18 - 82:23
    to be a problem that will haunt the
    government for a long time to come.
  • 82:23 - 82:26
    Especially remember that number, almost a
    hundred percent of people under 16 oppose
  • 82:26 - 82:30
    the extradition bill and those people are
    deeply involved, incredibly politicized.
  • 82:30 - 82:34
    And so, if anything, the people who are
    coming up are more anti government, are
  • 82:34 - 82:41
    more willing to go protest than anyone
    who's already out in the streets. The
  • 82:41 - 82:45
    things things that you can do. Go and
    follow Hong Kong journalists and support
  • 82:45 - 82:50
    them. If you're on Twitter, Laurel Chor
    and Hong Kong hermit, I've linked both of
  • 82:50 - 82:54
    them, have Twitter lists where you can
    follow local journalists who've been
  • 82:54 - 82:57
    living in Hong Kong, who grew up in the
    city, who have been reporting on the
  • 82:57 - 83:01
    protests for months, in some cases for
    years. A lot of these people have already
  • 83:01 - 83:04
    reported on the Umbrella Revolution. So go
    and follow those people because they
  • 83:04 - 83:08
    essentially have the best information.
    They speak the language and they will be
  • 83:08 - 83:13
    able to report firsthand. And you'll also
    run into those crazy livestream web sites.
  • 83:13 - 83:17
    You should also follow and donate to Hong
    Kong Free Press, which is an independent
  • 83:17 - 83:20
    media outlet, was formed after the
    umbrella protests. And it's been doing
  • 83:20 - 83:23
    some incredible coverage. They hired a
    really good photographer who took a bunch
  • 83:23 - 83:28
    of the pictures that you saw here. And she
    also was arrested by police at some point
  • 83:28 - 83:36
    for participating in a riot. So, yeah, go
    do that, follow those people. This is a
  • 83:36 - 83:40
    story that is not over and it will not be
    over anytime soon. And so the only thing I
  • 83:40 - 83:43
    can tell you is to go to the source and
    listen to the people who are right on the
  • 83:43 - 83:50
    ground. Last but not least: I can only
    speak about things that pertain to China,
  • 83:50 - 83:55
    because that's my area of expertise or in
    this case, Hong Kong. But this has been a
  • 83:55 - 83:58
    year with a lot of protest movements all
    over the world. And Hong Kongers are by
  • 83:58 - 84:02
    far from the only people who went onto the
    streets at great, immense personal risk to
  • 84:02 - 84:07
    stand up to their governments. In India,
    in student protests against an anti-Muslim
  • 84:07 - 84:12
    exclusion law, I think 17 or 20 people
    were killed in the past few weeks and the
  • 84:12 - 84:15
    Iraqi government just gunned down
    protesters that went out to protest for
  • 84:15 - 84:21
    political rights. People have been
    protesting in Chile, in Iran, in Syria
  • 84:21 - 84:26
    and a bunch of places. And those things
    might not be as well covered necessarily
  • 84:26 - 84:30
    as Hong Kong. I certainly don't read about
    them as much, but that's also my personal
  • 84:30 - 84:34
    interest. But I would encourage you, I
    think if you care about the things that
  • 84:34 - 84:37
    people are doing in Hong Kong that they're
    trying to achieve, I would urge you to
  • 84:37 - 84:41
    inform yourself about the things that are
    happening in other places as well. And in
  • 84:41 - 84:45
    a lot of cases, people who are in these
    places recognize that they stand for
  • 84:45 - 84:47
    similar things, right? They want their
    governments to listen to them and they
  • 84:47 - 84:52
    want to be represented. On the left, you
    have a grafitti from Lebanon, where in the
  • 84:52 - 84:56
    middle you can see the Hong Kong slogan,
    five demands, not one less, in Chinese,
  • 84:56 - 84:59
    stenciled on the wall. And on the left and
    the right, you have Iraqi and Lebanese
  • 84:59 - 85:04
    protest slogans that called for the for
    all corrupt government officials to
  • 85:04 - 85:09
    resign, regardless of which ethnic and
    religious faction they're part of. Whereas
  • 85:09 - 85:13
    on the right you have a protest poster
    from someone from Hong Kong who just lists
  • 85:13 - 85:18
    all the protests that they say we're
    fighting for the same thing. We're
  • 85:18 - 85:20
    fighting for freedom and justice. And so
    we we should feel like we're part of the
  • 85:20 - 85:25
    same thing. And so I just want to urge you
    that if you care about any of these
  • 85:25 - 85:30
    things, then you should probably care
    about it in more than one place. Thank you.
  • 85:30 - 85:59
    applause, exclamation
  • 85:59 - 86:02
    Herald (H): Thank you, Katharin. I don't
    know if I told you, but I asked for this
  • 86:02 - 86:06
    shift specifically because of your talk.
    K: Thank you. lauthing
  • 86:06 - 86:12
    H: It was everything I expected and more.
    So we have time for two or three
  • 86:12 - 86:17
    questions. Go take one question from the
    Internet, because there is a lot of people
  • 86:17 - 86:23
    who couldn't make it.
    Signal Angel: Yeah. So it seems that
  • 86:23 - 86:31
    Telegram is a used a lot during protests.
    And one of the IRC users mentions that
  • 86:31 - 86:37
    it's centralized and asks if there were
    any problems with this centralized and
  • 86:37 - 86:43
    controlled thing and if they are attempts
    to move this to decentralized
  • 86:43 - 86:48
    communication solutions.
    K: Thank you. So I think. Oh, I just saw
  • 86:48 - 86:56
    that I misspelled MIT in my email. That's
    very smart. Um. laughter The telegram question is
  • 86:56 - 87:01
    important. So Telegram has actually come
    under DDOS attacks for multiple times. The
  • 87:01 - 87:04
    first time was in the summer and there was
    another time later like a couple of weeks
  • 87:04 - 87:09
    ago. So that shows clearly that Telegram
    is a vulnerability in some ways, right? In
  • 87:09 - 87:12
    the summer after the DDOS attack, Telegram
    said that they think it was a nation state
  • 87:12 - 87:18
    actor just based on the volume of the DDOS
    attack. So that is kind of like a point of
  • 87:18 - 87:25
    vulnerability. In reaction to that and
    another DDOS attack on LHKG, there was
  • 87:25 - 87:29
    some discussions of moving to other
    platforms, but those ultimately didn't pan
  • 87:29 - 87:34
    out. So I think organizationally it is
    probably not ideal to be working on a
  • 87:34 - 87:38
    centralized platform. But the crucial
    question is whether you have alternatives
  • 87:38 - 87:42
    that people can get on easily, because
    you're organizing so many people and you
  • 87:42 - 87:46
    really want like the smallest amount of
    friction possible. And I think that is the
  • 87:46 - 87:50
    biggest challenge. So the more kind of
    like proposals for using different apps
  • 87:50 - 87:54
    that, for example, work without Internet
    for the worst case scenario, that the
  • 87:54 - 87:58
    government might switch up the Internet in
    Hong Kong. But my read is that those
  • 87:58 - 88:01
    ultimately didn't pan out because those
    are not necessarily apps that people are
  • 88:01 - 88:05
    used to that might not be as easy to use.
    And also because there is kind of like an
  • 88:05 - 88:10
    institutional stickiness. So I think it
    would probably take some kind of disaster
  • 88:10 - 88:15
    like either Telegram getting blocked or
    taken down in Hong Kong or kind of like
  • 88:15 - 88:18
    being completely taken down by DDOS attack
    for people to actually switch to another
  • 88:18 - 88:22
    platform. So I think there I agree it's
    when I started from a security
  • 88:22 - 88:25
    perspective, it's probably not ideal. But
    their biggest challenge is the kind of the
  • 88:25 - 88:29
    organizational challenge of getting people
    to move wholesale to completely different
  • 88:29 - 88:34
    platform.
    H: Thank you. And now one question from
  • 88:34 - 88:40
    the audience. Microphone number three.
    It's the last question. So make it count.
  • 88:40 - 88:46
    Q: That's a lot of responsibility. But I
    really wanted to ask about police
  • 88:46 - 88:54
    brutality. You mentioned that people were
    surprised by police brutality. But how can
  • 88:54 - 89:01
    it be a surprise. So it's only new police
    force from continental China whom became
  • 89:01 - 89:05
    suddenly brutal or people were not paying
    attention or was police brainwashed?
  • 89:05 - 89:11
    K: Thank you. That's a good question. And
    I don't think we have absolute answers to
  • 89:11 - 89:15
    this. The reason people were surprised is
    that the Hong Kong police force used to
  • 89:15 - 89:19
    have an incredibly good reputation as a
    police force that was very reasonable and
  • 89:19 - 89:23
    appropriate in its use of force. And
    that's clearly a reputation that's
  • 89:23 - 89:27
    completely gone down the drain over the
    past few months. The thing about police
  • 89:27 - 89:31
    coming in from China is something there
    are repeated reports, but they're always
  • 89:31 - 89:36
    incidental. And I haven't really seen any
    large scale verified reports that there
  • 89:36 - 89:40
    was any like major influx of mainland
    police officers into the Hong Kong police.
  • 89:40 - 89:45
    So it's probably not that. I think one
    thing that people observed after the
  • 89:45 - 89:48
    Umbrella Movement was that there was kind
    of like a siege mentality within the
  • 89:48 - 89:52
    police itself so that they kind of felt
    like they were being assaulted by the
  • 89:52 - 89:56
    entirety of society. So it's possible that
    that was kind of like kind of like the
  • 89:56 - 90:01
    formation of like increasingly strictly
    drawn lines and camps where the police
  • 90:01 - 90:04
    felt like they're under assault from
    everyone else and that they're justified
  • 90:04 - 90:08
    in using force. Which might be one of the
    explanations why they've also been so
  • 90:08 - 90:13
    opposed to kind of like an independent
    investigation. In addition to that,
  • 90:13 - 90:18
    another thing is that they've also been
    completely operating at capacity. So we
  • 90:18 - 90:23
    know that they've paid, I think, 900
    million Hong Kong dollars to something an
  • 90:23 - 90:28
    absurd amount in overtime pay to the
    police. So I think one thing is also that
  • 90:28 - 90:31
    these are people who in many cases are not
    trained in dealing with the events that
  • 90:31 - 90:34
    they're supposed to be dealing with. And
    so it seems that they are possibly
  • 90:34 - 90:39
    reacting by lashing out and in more
    violent ways than like would probably be
  • 90:39 - 90:42
    appropriate. So it might just also be a
    lack of training, but there's no
  • 90:42 - 90:44
    definitive answer.
    H: Thank you
  • 90:44 - 90:47
    K: Thanks
    H: Katherin Tai, who has been heroically
  • 90:47 - 90:52
    standing here for 90 minutes talking
    nonstop, which is hard! So, people, a huge
  • 90:52 - 90:53
    round of applause.
  • 90:53 - 90:54
    applause
  • 90:54 - 90:58
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  • 90:58 - 91:26
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Title:
36C3 - What the World can learn from Hongkong
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Video Language:
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Duration:
01:31:26

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