1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,010 34c3 intro 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:18,339 Herald: ... used Anja Dahlmann, a political scientist and researcher at 3 00:00:18,339 --> 00:00:23,310 Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik, a berlin-based think-tank. Here we go. 4 00:00:23,310 --> 00:00:30,160 applause 5 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:40,030 Anja Dahlmann: Yeah, Thanks for being here. I probably neither cut myself nor 6 00:00:40,030 --> 00:00:44,270 proposed but I hope it's still interesting. I'm going to talk about 7 00:00:44,270 --> 00:00:49,240 preventive arms control and international humanitarian law and doing in this 8 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,270 international debate around autonomous weapons. This type of weapon is also 9 00:00:53,270 --> 00:00:59,010 referred to as Lethal Autonomous Weapons System, short LAWS, or also killer robots. 10 00:00:59,010 --> 00:01:04,239 So if I say LAWS, I mostly mean these weapons and not like legal laws, just to 11 00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:11,650 confuse you a bit. Okay. I will discuss this topic along three questions. First of 12 00:01:11,650 --> 00:01:18,300 all, what are we actually talking about here, what are autonomous weapons? Second, 13 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:22,210 why should we even care about this? Why's it important? And third, how could this 14 00:01:22,210 --> 00:01:31,480 issue be addressed on international level? So. I'll go through my slides, anyway, 15 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:37,770 what are we talking about here? Well, during the international negotiations, so 16 00:01:37,770 --> 00:01:45,360 far no real, no common definition has been found. So States, Parties try to find 17 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,090 something or not and for my presentation I will just use a very broad definition of 18 00:01:50,090 --> 00:01:57,229 autonomous weapons, which is: Weapons that can once activated execute a broad range 19 00:01:57,229 --> 00:02:02,350 of tasks or selecting to engage targets without further human intervention. And 20 00:02:02,350 --> 00:02:08,340 it's just a very broad spectrum of weapons that might fall under this definition. 21 00:02:08,340 --> 00:02:13,150 Actually, some existing ones are there as well which you can't see here. That would 22 00:02:13,150 --> 00:02:19,940 be the Phalanx system for example. It's been around since the 1970s. Sorry... 23 00:02:19,940 --> 00:02:22,950 Herald: Man kann nichts hören auf der Bühne. Mach mal weiter. 24 00:02:22,950 --> 00:02:27,310 Dahlmann: Sorry. So, Phalanx system has been around since the 1970s, a US system, 25 00:02:27,310 --> 00:02:33,069 air defense system, based on ships and it's been to - just yeah, defend the ship 26 00:02:33,069 --> 00:02:39,330 against incoming objects from the air. So that's around, has been around for quite a 27 00:02:39,330 --> 00:02:45,170 long time and it might be even part of this LAWS definition or not but just to 28 00:02:45,170 --> 00:02:49,410 give you an impression how broad this range is: Today, we've got for example 29 00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:57,990 demonstrators like the Taranis drone, a UK system, or the x74b which can, for 30 00:02:57,990 --> 00:03:04,959 example, autonomously land applause 31 00:03:04,959 --> 00:03:08,700 land on aircraft carriers and can be air- refueled and stuff like that which is 32 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:13,550 apparently quite impressive if you don't need a human to do that and in the future 33 00:03:13,550 --> 00:03:18,810 there might be even, or there probably will be even more, autonomous functions, 34 00:03:18,810 --> 00:03:25,650 so navigation, landing, refueling, all that stuff. That's, you know, old but at 35 00:03:25,650 --> 00:03:30,090 some point there might, be weapons might be able to choose their own ammunition 36 00:03:30,090 --> 00:03:34,560 according to the situation. They might be able to choose their target and decide 37 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:41,720 when to engage with the target without any human intervention at some point. And 38 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,001 that's quite problematic, I will tell you why that's in a minute. Overall, you can 39 00:03:45,001 --> 00:03:52,230 see that there's a gradual decline of human control over weapons systems or over 40 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:58,050 weapons and the use of force. So that's a very short and broad impression of what 41 00:03:58,050 --> 00:04:01,360 we're talking about here. And talking about definitions, it's always interesting 42 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,730 what you're not talking about and that's why I want to address some misconceptions 43 00:04:05,730 --> 00:04:13,481 in the public debate. First of all, when we talk about machine autonomy, also 44 00:04:13,481 --> 00:04:19,858 artificial intelligence, with intelligence which is the technology behind this, 45 00:04:19,858 --> 00:04:25,420 people - not you probably - in the media and the broader public often get the idea 46 00:04:25,420 --> 00:04:30,540 that these machines might have some kind of real intelligence or intention or an 47 00:04:30,540 --> 00:04:36,260 entity on own right and they're just not. It's just statistical methods, it's just 48 00:04:36,260 --> 00:04:40,740 math and you know way more about this than I do so I will leave it with this and just 49 00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:45,600 say that or highlight that they have these machines, these weapons have certain 50 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,070 competences for specific tasks. They are not entities on their own right, they are 51 00:04:50,070 --> 00:04:55,050 not intentional.And that's important when we talk about ethical and legal challenges 52 00:04:55,050 --> 00:05:06,580 afterwards. Sorry. There it is. And the other, in connection with this, there's 53 00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:11,380 another one, which is the plethora of Terminator references in the media as soon 54 00:05:11,380 --> 00:05:15,000 as you talk about autonomous weapons, mostly referred to as killer robots in 55 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,251 this context. And just in case you tend to write an article about this: don't use a 56 00:05:20,251 --> 00:05:24,340 Terminator picture, please. Don't, because it's really unhelpful to understand where 57 00:05:24,340 --> 00:05:30,350 the problems are. With this kind of thing, people assume that we have problems is 58 00:05:30,350 --> 00:05:34,160 when we have machines with a human-like intelligence which look like the 59 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:39,750 Terminator or something like this. And the problem is that really way before that 60 00:05:39,750 --> 00:05:46,820 they start when you use assisting systems when you have men or human-machine teaming 61 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:50,860 or when you accumulate a couple of autonomous functions through the targeting 62 00:05:50,860 --> 00:05:57,720 cycle. So through this, the military steps are lead to the use of force or lead to 63 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:03,560 the killing of people. And that's not, this is really not our problem at the 64 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,350 moment. So please keep this in mind because it's not just semantics, semantics 65 00:06:08,350 --> 00:06:15,350 to differentiate between these two things. It's really manages the expectations of 66 00:06:15,350 --> 00:06:20,780 political and military decision-makers. Ok, so now you've got kind of an 67 00:06:20,780 --> 00:06:23,620 impression what I'm talking about here so why should we actually talk about this? 68 00:06:23,620 --> 00:06:30,090 What's all the fuss about? Actually, autonomous weapons have or would have 69 00:06:30,090 --> 00:06:34,169 quite a few military advantages: They might be, in some cases, faster or even 70 00:06:34,169 --> 00:06:39,780 more precise than humans. And you don't need a constant communication link. So you 71 00:06:39,780 --> 00:06:43,740 don't have, you don't have to worry about instable communication links, you don't 72 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:50,020 have to worry about latency or detection or a vulnerability of this specific link. 73 00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:57,050 So yay! And a lot of, let's say very interesting, military options come from 74 00:06:57,050 --> 00:07:02,520 that. People talk about stealthy operations and shallow waters for example. 75 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,340 Or you know remote missions and secluded areas, things like that. And you can get 76 00:07:07,340 --> 00:07:13,830 very creative with tiniest robots and swarms for example. So shiny new options. 77 00:07:13,830 --> 00:07:19,630 But, and of course there's a "but", it comes at a prize because you have at least 78 00:07:19,630 --> 00:07:26,590 three dimensions of challenges in this regard. First of all, the legal ones. When 79 00:07:26,590 --> 00:07:31,389 we talk about these weapons, they might be, they will be applied in conflict where 80 00:07:31,389 --> 00:07:37,500 international humanitarian law IHL applies. And IHL consists of quite a few 81 00:07:37,500 --> 00:07:45,430 very abstract principles. For example: principle of distinction between 82 00:07:45,430 --> 00:07:51,310 combatants and civilians, principle of proportionality or a military necessity. 83 00:07:51,310 --> 00:07:58,069 They are very abstract and I'm pretty sure they really always need a human judgment 84 00:07:58,069 --> 00:08:05,889 to interpret this, these principles, and apply them to dynamic situations. Feel 85 00:08:05,889 --> 00:08:14,870 free to correct me if I'm wrong later. So that's one thing. So if you remove the 86 00:08:14,870 --> 00:08:19,440 human from the targeting cycle, this human judgment might be missing and therefore 87 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,700 military decision makers have to evaluate very carefully the quality of human 88 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:31,699 control and human judgement within the targeting cycle. So that's law. Second 89 00:08:31,699 --> 00:08:38,719 dimension of challenges are security issues. When you look at these new systems 90 00:08:38,719 --> 00:08:43,639 they are cool and shiny and as most new types of weapons they are, they have the 91 00:08:43,639 --> 00:08:49,050 potential to stir an arms race between between states. So they actually might 92 00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:53,559 make conflicts more likely just because they are there and states want to have 93 00:08:53,559 --> 00:09:00,519 them and feel threatened by them. Second aspect is proliferation. Autonomy is based 94 00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:04,739 on software, so software can be easily transferred it's really hard to control 95 00:09:04,739 --> 00:09:08,579 and all the other components, or most of the other components you will need, are 96 00:09:08,579 --> 00:09:12,279 available on the civilian market so you can build this stuff on your own if you're 97 00:09:12,279 --> 00:09:19,639 smart enough. So we have might have more conflicts from these types of weapons and 98 00:09:19,639 --> 00:09:24,500 it's might get, well, more difficult to control the application of this 99 00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:29,560 technology. And the third one which is it especially worrying for me is the as 100 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:33,971 potential for escalation within the conflict, especially when you have, when 101 00:09:33,971 --> 00:09:40,279 both or more sites use these autonomous weapons, you have these very complex 102 00:09:40,279 --> 00:09:45,550 adversary systems and it will become very hard to predict how they are going to 103 00:09:45,550 --> 00:09:52,050 interact. They will increase the speed of the of the conflict and the human might 104 00:09:52,050 --> 00:09:57,040 not even have a chance to process what's going on there. 105 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,949 So that's really worrying and we can see for example in high-frequency trading at 106 00:10:01,949 --> 00:10:05,980 the stock markets where problems arise there and how are difficult is for humans 107 00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:12,529 to understand what's going on there. So that, that are of some of these security 108 00:10:12,529 --> 00:10:23,129 issues there. And the last and maybe maybe most important one are ethics. As I 109 00:10:23,129 --> 00:10:29,089 mentioned before, when you use autonomy and weapons or machines you have 110 00:10:29,089 --> 00:10:32,759 artificial intelligence so you don't have real intention, a real entity that's 111 00:10:32,759 --> 00:10:38,220 behind this. So the killing decision might at some point be based on statistical 112 00:10:38,220 --> 00:10:43,209 methods and no one will be involved there and that's, well, worrying for a lot of 113 00:10:43,209 --> 00:10:48,399 reasons but also it could constitute a violation of human dignity. You can argue 114 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:54,079 that humans have, well, you can kill humans in in war but they at least have 115 00:10:54,079 --> 00:10:59,140 the right to be killed by another human or at least by the decision of another human, 116 00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:02,629 but we can discuss this later. So at least on this regard it would be 117 00:11:02,629 --> 00:11:07,610 highly unethical and that really just scratches the surface of problems and 118 00:11:07,610 --> 00:11:12,790 challenges that would arise from the use of these autonomous weapons. I haven't 119 00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:16,680 even touched on the problems with training data, with accountability, with 120 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:23,299 verification and all that funny stuff because I only have 20 minutes. So, sounds 121 00:11:23,299 --> 00:11:32,519 pretty bad, doesn't it? So how can this issue be addressed? Luckily, states have, 122 00:11:32,519 --> 00:11:36,739 thanks to a huge campaign of NGOs, noticed that there might be some problems and 123 00:11:36,739 --> 00:11:40,439 there might be a necessity to address that, this issue. They're currently doing 124 00:11:40,439 --> 00:11:45,379 this in the UN Convention on certain conventional weapons, CCW, where they 125 00:11:45,379 --> 00:11:53,290 discuss a potential ban of the development and use of these lethal weapons or weapons 126 00:11:53,290 --> 00:11:57,589 that lack meaningful human control over the use of force. There are several ideas 127 00:11:57,589 --> 00:12:04,420 around there. And such a ban would be really the maximum goal of the NGOs there 128 00:12:04,420 --> 00:12:09,170 but it becomes increasingly unlikely that this happens. Most states do not agree 129 00:12:09,170 --> 00:12:12,991 with a complete ban, they want to regulate it a bit here, a bit there, and they 130 00:12:12,991 --> 00:12:17,879 really can't find a common common definition as I mentioned before because 131 00:12:17,879 --> 00:12:22,609 if you have a broad definition as just as I used it you will notice that you have 132 00:12:22,609 --> 00:12:26,009 existing systems in there that might be not that problematic or that you just 133 00:12:26,009 --> 00:12:31,749 don't want to ben and you might stop civilian or commercial developments which 134 00:12:31,749 --> 00:12:38,690 you also don't want to do. So states are stuck on this regard and they also really 135 00:12:38,690 --> 00:12:42,179 challenge the notion that we need a preventive arms control here, so that we 136 00:12:42,179 --> 00:12:50,629 need to act before these systems are applied on the battlefield. So at the 137 00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:55,980 moment, this is the fourth year or something of these negotiations and we 138 00:12:55,980 --> 00:13:00,089 will see how it goes this year and if states can't find a common ground there it 139 00:13:00,089 --> 00:13:04,949 becomes increasingly like or yeah becomes likely that it will change to another 140 00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:11,060 forum just like with anti-personnel mines for example which where the the treaty was 141 00:13:11,060 --> 00:13:17,639 found outside of the United Nations. But yeah, the window of opportunity really 142 00:13:17,639 --> 00:13:24,950 closes and states and NGOs have to act there and yeah keep on track there. Just 143 00:13:24,950 --> 00:13:32,339 as a side note, probably quite a few people are members of NGOs so if you look 144 00:13:32,339 --> 00:13:39,059 at the campaign to stop killer robots with a big campaign behind this, this process, 145 00:13:39,059 --> 00:13:43,310 there's only one German NGO which is facing finance, so if you're especially if 146 00:13:43,310 --> 00:13:48,739 you're German NGO and are interest that in AI it might be worthwhile to look into the 147 00:13:48,739 --> 00:13:54,509 military dimension as well. We really need some expertise on that regard, especially 148 00:13:54,509 --> 00:14:00,439 on AI and these technologies. They're... Okay, so just in case you fell asleep in 149 00:14:00,439 --> 00:14:05,589 the last 15 minutes I want you to take away three key messages: Please be aware 150 00:14:05,589 --> 00:14:11,100 of the trends and internal logic that lead to autonomy in weapons. Do not 151 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:15,629 overestimate the abilities of autonomy, of autonomous machines like intent and these 152 00:14:15,629 --> 00:14:20,189 things and because you probably all knew this already, please tell people about 153 00:14:20,189 --> 00:14:23,899 this, tell other people about this, educate them about this type of 154 00:14:23,899 --> 00:14:30,669 technology. And third, don't underestimate the potential dangers for security and 155 00:14:30,669 --> 00:14:37,249 human dignity that comes from this type of weapon. I hope that I could interest you a 156 00:14:37,249 --> 00:14:40,839 bit more in this in this particular issue if you want to learn more you can find 157 00:14:40,839 --> 00:14:46,819 really interesting sources on the website of the CCW at the campaign to stuff killer 158 00:14:46,819 --> 00:14:53,410 robots and from a research project that I happen to work in, the International Panel 159 00:14:53,410 --> 00:14:56,759 on the Regulation of Autonomous Weapons, we do have a few studies on that regard 160 00:14:56,759 --> 00:15:02,059 and we're going to publish a few more. So please, check this out and thank you for 161 00:15:02,059 --> 00:15:03,481 your attention. 162 00:15:03,481 --> 00:15:13,714 Applause 163 00:15:13,714 --> 00:15:16,199 Questions? 164 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:23,779 Herald: Sorry. So we have some time for questions answers now. Okay, first of all 165 00:15:23,779 --> 00:15:28,110 I have to apologize that we had a hiccup with the signing language, the acoustics 166 00:15:28,110 --> 00:15:32,209 over here on the stage was so bad that she didn't could do her job so I'm 167 00:15:32,209 --> 00:15:38,720 terrible sorry about that. We fixed it in the talk and my apologies for that. We are 168 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,160 queuing here on the microphones already so we start with microphone number one, your 169 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,610 question please. Mic 1: Thanks for your talk Anja. Don't 170 00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:49,049 you think there is a possibility to reduce war crimes as well by taking away the 171 00:15:49,049 --> 00:15:54,059 decision from humans and by having algorithms who decide which are actually 172 00:15:54,059 --> 00:15:56,929 auditable? Dahlmann: Yeah that's, actually, that's 173 00:15:56,929 --> 00:15:59,740 something I just discussed in the international debate as well, that there 174 00:15:59,740 --> 00:16:05,399 might, that machines might be more ethical than humans could be. And well, of course 175 00:16:05,399 --> 00:16:11,509 they won't just start raping women because they want to but you can program them to 176 00:16:11,509 --> 00:16:18,269 do this. So you just you shift the problems really. And also maybe these 177 00:16:18,269 --> 00:16:22,559 machines don't get angry but they don't show compassion either so if you are there 178 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:26,069 and your potential target they just won't stop they will just kill you and do not 179 00:16:26,069 --> 00:16:32,839 think once think about this. So you have to really look at both sides there I guess. 180 00:16:32,839 --> 00:16:37,839 Herald: Thanks. So we switch over to microphone 3, please. 181 00:16:37,839 --> 00:16:44,699 Mic 3: Thanks for the talk. Regarding autonomous cars, self-driving cars, 182 00:16:44,699 --> 00:16:49,239 there's a similar discussion going on regarding the ethics. How should a car 183 00:16:49,239 --> 00:16:54,139 react in a case of an accident? Should it protect people outside people, inside, 184 00:16:54,139 --> 00:17:02,069 what are the laws? So there is another discussion there. Do you work with people 185 00:17:02,069 --> 00:17:07,270 in this area or is this is there any collaboration? 186 00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:10,169 Dahlmann: Maybe there's less collaboration than one might think there is. I think 187 00:17:10,169 --> 00:17:17,299 there is. Of course, we we monitor this debate as well and yeah we think about the 188 00:17:17,299 --> 00:17:20,689 possible applications of the outcomes for example from this German ethical 189 00:17:20,689 --> 00:17:26,849 commission on self-driving cars for our work. But I'm a bit torn there because 190 00:17:26,849 --> 00:17:30,910 when you talk about weapons, they are designed to kill people and cars mostly 191 00:17:30,910 --> 00:17:36,000 are not. So with this ethical committee you want to avoid killing people or decide 192 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:42,100 what happens when this accident occurs. So they are a bit different but of course 193 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:48,790 yeah you can learn a lot from both discussions and we aware of that. 194 00:17:48,790 --> 00:17:53,530 Herald: Thanks. Then we're gonna go over in the back, microphone number 2, please. 195 00:17:53,530 --> 00:17:59,500 Mic 2: Also from me thanks again for this talk and infusing all this professionalism 196 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:10,280 into the debate because some of the surroundings of our, so to say ours 197 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:17,860 scenery, they like to protest against very specific things like for example the 198 00:18:17,860 --> 00:18:23,920 Rammstein air base and in my view that's a bit misguided if you just go out and 199 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:30,559 protest in a populistic way without involving these points of expertise that 200 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:38,210 you offer. And so, thanks again for that. And then my question: How would you 201 00:18:38,210 --> 00:18:46,940 propose that protests progress and develop themselves to a higher level to be on the 202 00:18:46,940 --> 00:18:55,170 one hand more effective and on the other hand more considerate of what is at stake 203 00:18:55,170 --> 00:19:00,200 on all the levels and on all sides involved? 204 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,690 Dahlmann: Yeah well, first, the Rammstein issue is completely, actually a completely 205 00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:10,340 different topic. It's drone warfare, remotely piloted drones, so there are a 206 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:14,290 lot of a lot of problems with this and we're starting killings but it's not about 207 00:19:14,290 --> 00:19:21,820 lethal autonomous weapons in particular. Well if you want to be a part of this 208 00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:25,330 international debate, there's of course this campaign to stop killer robots and 209 00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:30,429 they have a lot of really good people and a lot of resources, sources, literature 210 00:19:30,429 --> 00:19:35,190 and things like that to really educate yourself what's going on there, so that 211 00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:39,490 would be a starting point. And then yeah just keep talking to scientists about 212 00:19:39,490 --> 00:19:45,280 this and find out where we see the problems and I mean it's always helpful 213 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:52,969 for scientists to to talk to people in the field, so to say. So yeah, keep talking. 214 00:19:52,969 --> 00:19:55,519 Herald: Thanks for that. And the signal angel signaled that we have 215 00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:59,200 something from the internet. Signal Angel: Thank you. Question from 216 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,210 IRC: Aren't we already in a killer robot world? The bot net can attack a nuclear 217 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:08,270 power plant for example. What do you think? Dahlmann: I really didn't understand a 218 00:20:08,270 --> 00:20:09,710 word, I'm sorry. Herald: I didn't understand that as well, 219 00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:12,590 so can you speak closer to the microphone, please? 220 00:20:12,590 --> 00:20:16,480 Signal Angel: Yes. Aren't we already in a killer robot world? 221 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,510 Herald: Sorry, that doesn't work. Sorry. Sorry, we stop that here, we can't hear it 222 00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:21,550 over here. Sorry. Signal Angel: Okay. 223 00:20:21,550 --> 00:20:25,749 Herald: We're gonna switch over to microphone two now, please. 224 00:20:25,749 --> 00:20:32,529 Mic 2: I have one little question. So in your talk, you were focusing on the 225 00:20:32,529 --> 00:20:38,970 ethical questions related to lethal weapons. Are you aware of ongoing 226 00:20:38,970 --> 00:20:45,379 discussions regarding the ethical aspects of the design and implementation of less 227 00:20:45,379 --> 00:20:52,769 than lethal autonomous weapons for crowd control and similar purposes? 228 00:20:52,769 --> 00:20:57,039 Dahlmann: Yeah actually within the CCW, every term of this Lethal Autonomous 229 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:02,660 Weapon Systems is disputed also the "lethal" aspect and for the regulation 230 00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:07,670 that might be easier to focus on this for now because less than lethal weapons come 231 00:21:07,670 --> 00:21:14,490 with their own problems and the question if they are ethical and if they can, if 232 00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:18,820 IHL applies to them but I'm not really deep into this discussion. So I'll just 233 00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:22,600 have to leave it there. Herald: Thanks and back here to microphone 234 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,230 one, please. Mic 1: Hi. Thank you for the talk very 235 00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:31,710 much. My question is in the context of the decreasing cost of both, the hardware and 236 00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:37,190 software, over the next say 20, 40 years. Outside of a nation-state context like 237 00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:42,419 private forces or non nation-state actors gaining use of these weapons, do things 238 00:21:42,419 --> 00:21:45,860 like the UN convention or the campaign to stop killer robots apply are they 239 00:21:45,860 --> 00:21:52,409 considering private individuals trying to leverage these against others? 240 00:21:52,409 --> 00:21:59,860 Dahlmann: Not sure what the campaign says about this, I'm not a member there. The 241 00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:06,600 the CCW mostly focuses on international humanitarian law which is important but I 242 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,820 think it's it's not broad enough. So questions like proliferation and all this 243 00:22:10,820 --> 00:22:16,480 is connected to your question and not really or probably won't be part of 244 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,090 regulation there. It's discussed only on the edges of the of the debates and 245 00:22:21,090 --> 00:22:26,799 negotiations there but it doesn't seem to be a really issue there. 246 00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:29,860 Mic 1: Thanks. Herald: And over to microphone six, 247 00:22:29,860 --> 00:22:32,510 please. Mic 6: Thank you. I have a question as a 248 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:38,559 researcher: Do you know how far the development has gone already? So how 249 00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:44,770 transparent or intransparent is your look into what is being developed and 250 00:22:44,770 --> 00:22:50,669 researched on the side of militaria working, military people working with 251 00:22:50,669 --> 00:22:54,789 autonomous weapons and developing them? Dahlmann: Well, for me it's quite 252 00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:59,759 intransparent because I only have only access to public publicly available 253 00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:04,630 sources so I don't really know what what's going on behind closed doors in the 254 00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:10,500 military or in the industry there. Of course you can you can monitor the 255 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:14,820 civilian applications or developments which can tell a lot about the the state 256 00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:24,131 of the art and for example the DARPA the American Development Agency, they 257 00:23:24,131 --> 00:23:30,070 published sometimes a call for papers, that's not the term, but there you can see 258 00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:34,440 where in which areas they are interested in then for example they really like this 259 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:40,990 idea of autonomous killer bug that can act in swarms and monitor or even kill 260 00:23:40,990 --> 00:23:45,600 people and things like that. So yeah we try to piece it, piece it together in 261 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,699 our work. Herald: We do have a little bit more time, 262 00:23:48,699 --> 00:23:50,570 are you okay to answer more questions? Dahlmann: Sure. 263 00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:52,959 Herald: Then we're gonna switch over to microphone three, please. 264 00:23:52,959 --> 00:24:00,460 Mic 3: Yes, hello. I think we are living already in a world of Leathal Autonomous 265 00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:04,870 Weapon Systems if you think about these millions of landmines which are operating. 266 00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:09,249 And so the question is: Shouldn't it be possible to ban these weapon systems the 267 00:24:09,249 --> 00:24:14,320 same way as land mines that are already banned by several countries so just 268 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:19,240 include them in that definition? And because the arguments should be very 269 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,049 similar. Dahlmann: Yeah it does, it does come to 270 00:24:23,049 --> 00:24:26,539 mind of course because these mines are just lying around there and no one's 271 00:24:26,539 --> 00:24:32,900 interacting when you step on them and boom! But they are, well it depends, it 272 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:38,889 depends first of all a bit of your definition of autonomy. So some say 273 00:24:38,889 --> 00:24:42,539 autonomous is when you act in dynamic situations and the other ones would be 274 00:24:42,539 --> 00:24:47,889 automated and things like that and I think this autonomy aspect, I really don't want 275 00:24:47,889 --> 00:24:55,899 to find, don't want to find define autonomy here really but this this action 276 00:24:55,899 --> 00:25:01,480 in more dynamic spaces and the aspect of machine learning and all these things, 277 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,450 they are way more complex and they bring different problems than just land mines. 278 00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:10,759 Landmines are problematic, anti-personnel mines are banned for good reasons but they 279 00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:15,409 don't have the same problems I think. So it won't be, I don't think it won't be 280 00:25:15,409 --> 00:25:21,539 sufficient to just put the LAWS in there, the Lethal Autonomous Weapons. 281 00:25:21,539 --> 00:25:26,399 Herald: Thank you very much. I can't see anyone else queuing up so therefore, Anja, 282 00:25:26,399 --> 00:25:28,990 thank you very much it's your applause! 283 00:25:28,990 --> 00:25:31,810 applause 284 00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:34,587 and once again my apologies that that didn't work 285 00:25:34,587 --> 00:25:39,800 34c3 outro 286 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:56,575 subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2018. Join, and help us!