WEBVTT 00:00:05.686 --> 00:00:17.791 This is from: "anonymous - just humiliated." 00:00:17.791 --> 00:00:23.607 "Can I get a divorce? 00:00:23.607 --> 00:00:26.718 I am still raw with pain 00:00:26.718 --> 00:00:29.168 with every desire..." 00:00:29.168 --> 00:00:33.453 Now hear this: "Can I get a divorce? 00:00:33.453 --> 00:00:38.256 I am still raw with pain..." 00:00:38.256 --> 00:00:43.038 but she has every desire and prays 00:00:43.038 --> 00:00:44.521 to forgive her husband 00:00:44.521 --> 00:00:46.894 of twenty-plus years 00:00:46.894 --> 00:00:49.228 for his adulterous affair 00:00:49.228 --> 00:00:52.895 with a young, beautiful woman, 00:00:52.895 --> 00:00:56.622 who he spent over $8,000 on 00:00:56.622 --> 00:00:59.479 with traveling to at least five states 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:01.186 including six cities, 00:01:01.186 --> 00:01:04.571 jewelry from Tiffany's, jackets, 00:01:04.571 --> 00:01:07.178 a new iWatch when it first was introduced 00:01:07.178 --> 00:01:09.089 to the market. 00:01:09.089 --> 00:01:11.111 It has been a little over two years ago 00:01:11.111 --> 00:01:14.027 since this young woman, 00:01:14.027 --> 00:01:18.118 angered by their breakup..." 00:01:18.118 --> 00:01:21.482 Her husband and this young lady broke up, 00:01:21.482 --> 00:01:25.810 so the young lady called the wife 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:27.994 and introduced herself.... 00:01:27.994 --> 00:01:31.353 "...to me as his girlfriend." 00:01:31.353 --> 00:01:34.116 And revealed all this information, 00:01:34.116 --> 00:01:36.634 which her husband didn't deny. 00:01:36.634 --> 00:01:38.156 He confirmed it as true 00:01:38.156 --> 00:01:40.932 when she confronted him. 00:01:40.932 --> 00:01:45.121 "Reconciliation has been harder than anything, 00:01:45.121 --> 00:01:49.439 testing my faith as I go to God regularly 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.011 to forgive him continually." 00:01:53.011 --> 00:01:55.945 She says, "I face triggers." 00:01:55.945 --> 00:01:57.700 What does she mean? 00:01:57.700 --> 00:01:59.892 There are these triggers that set off 00:01:59.892 --> 00:02:02.985 anger and bitterness. 00:02:02.985 --> 00:02:05.792 What? New discoveries. 00:02:05.792 --> 00:02:08.869 Things that her husband didn't fully disclose. 00:02:08.872 --> 00:02:11.820 She's finding out as time goes on 00:02:11.820 --> 00:02:16.471 new information, new discoveries. 00:02:16.471 --> 00:02:21.610 Inconsistencies in the things 00:02:21.610 --> 00:02:28.518 that he has told her that reveal lies. 00:02:28.518 --> 00:02:34.651 "And the discovery that he referred to this girl 00:02:34.651 --> 00:02:37.280 as his ex-girlfriend, 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:40.918 upgrading their foul, adulterous relationship 00:02:40.918 --> 00:02:43.218 as one as common as a courtship 00:02:43.218 --> 00:02:45.930 instead of referring to her as what she was, 00:02:45.930 --> 00:02:48.167 a mistress. 00:02:48.167 --> 00:02:49.783 I'm hurting badly 00:02:49.783 --> 00:02:54.290 with feelings of not feeling good enough." 00:02:54.290 --> 00:02:59.307 So she feels like a failure as a wife. 00:02:59.307 --> 00:03:02.705 "Anger that I wrestle in the flesh 00:03:02.705 --> 00:03:07.514 because I cherish my relationship with Jesus Christ. 00:03:07.514 --> 00:03:10.460 My journey actually has been smoother 00:03:10.460 --> 00:03:14.080 since I've discovered this two-plus years ago. 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:16.361 But we still argue. 00:03:16.361 --> 00:03:20.343 He says he's repented, but I don't see how 00:03:20.343 --> 00:03:22.293 because I still feel disrespected 00:03:22.293 --> 00:03:24.834 in the way he views her. 00:03:24.834 --> 00:03:27.116 Like how he mentioned her to someone 00:03:27.116 --> 00:03:29.832 as his ex-girlfriend, 00:03:29.832 --> 00:03:32.295 and how he tells me I'm crazy 00:03:32.295 --> 00:03:34.948 for still wrestling with the problem. 00:03:34.948 --> 00:03:38.121 And like how he says he lives a sinless life 00:03:38.121 --> 00:03:41.379 now that he's repented. 00:03:41.379 --> 00:03:44.769 Like when he uses profanity 00:03:44.769 --> 00:03:46.991 in response to me badgering him 00:03:46.991 --> 00:03:50.900 about the past adulterous affair 00:03:50.900 --> 00:03:53.796 as if it's my fault. 00:03:53.796 --> 00:03:55.955 His lies he's told in the aftermath 00:03:55.955 --> 00:03:58.162 to cover up things she told me 00:03:58.162 --> 00:04:01.037 aren't recognized as sin by him 00:04:01.037 --> 00:04:03.491 because now that he's not committing adultery, 00:04:03.491 --> 00:04:05.784 he claims he's sinless." 00:04:05.784 --> 00:04:07.974 She says, "I'm born again, 00:04:07.974 --> 00:04:10.161 and I'm always repenting, 00:04:10.161 --> 00:04:12.617 always seeking the Lord to purge me 00:04:12.617 --> 00:04:14.030 as He said He would. 00:04:14.030 --> 00:04:17.116 'Every branch that abides in Him...' 00:04:17.116 --> 00:04:22.518 I'm never so satisfied with where I am 00:04:22.518 --> 00:04:24.740 that I call myself sinless. 00:04:24.740 --> 00:04:26.900 Am I set free? Yes. 00:04:26.900 --> 00:04:29.050 But now more than ever, I'm wrestling 00:04:29.050 --> 00:04:31.886 with anger and unforgiveness 00:04:31.886 --> 00:04:33.920 as they are triggered. 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.231 I have really great days. 00:04:36.231 --> 00:04:39.396 I have good days, moderate days, 00:04:39.396 --> 00:04:44.347 and really, really bad days. 00:04:44.347 --> 00:04:46.408 I'm seeking the Lord 00:04:46.408 --> 00:04:51.249 and pouring out to Him through all this." 00:04:51.249 --> 00:04:55.932 Now she also sent a follow-up 00:04:55.932 --> 00:04:59.806 where she said this: 00:04:59.806 --> 00:05:01.808 "I'm so sorry 00:05:01.808 --> 00:05:05.082 concerning the message I just sent. 00:05:05.082 --> 00:05:10.601 Be it far from me to leave out my own fault too. 00:05:10.601 --> 00:05:12.510 I've been wrestling with both anger 00:05:12.510 --> 00:05:15.754 and horrible profanity. 00:05:15.754 --> 00:05:18.630 I'm repenting constantly for my angry outbursts 00:05:18.630 --> 00:05:20.325 about the affair 00:05:20.325 --> 00:05:23.984 and the marital neglect I experienced. 00:05:23.984 --> 00:05:25.522 And to be honest," she says, 00:05:25.522 --> 00:05:29.660 "he has many times sat quietly 00:05:29.660 --> 00:05:31.791 and listened to me. 00:05:31.791 --> 00:05:35.130 He has not been a monster toward me 00:05:35.130 --> 00:05:38.671 since about two months after the discovery 00:05:38.671 --> 00:05:42.525 of his adulterous affair. 00:05:42.525 --> 00:05:45.967 And I'm sorry I left those points out." 00:05:45.967 --> 00:05:52.136 She felt convicted. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:52.136 --> 00:05:55.268 So her first question is 00:05:55.268 --> 00:05:56.587 can I get a divorce? 00:05:56.587 --> 00:05:58.360 Now you recognize, she follows it up 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:02.365 by saying "every desire in her prayer 00:06:02.365 --> 00:06:05.312 is to forgive her husband." 00:06:05.312 --> 00:06:08.807 So this is a woman that's torn. 00:06:08.807 --> 00:06:11.244 This is a woman who's trying to heal, 00:06:11.244 --> 00:06:13.714 but she says there's triggers. 00:06:13.714 --> 00:06:17.583 Like she finds some new information 00:06:17.583 --> 00:06:19.970 that he wasn't honest about. 00:06:19.970 --> 00:06:21.876 Or he seems to downplay it - 00:06:21.876 --> 00:06:24.357 say it's her sin, it's her fault. 00:06:24.357 --> 00:06:31.097 Why does she keep carrying on with this? 00:06:31.097 --> 00:06:34.870 What do you tell her? 00:06:34.870 --> 00:06:39.912 She says, "he tells me I'm crazy 00:06:39.912 --> 00:06:44.357 for still wrestling with the problem." 00:06:44.357 --> 00:06:51.229 I would say to her you're not crazy. 00:06:51.229 --> 00:06:52.932 I mean, clearly if you're a woman 00:06:52.932 --> 00:06:55.157 and your husband has been unfaithful 00:06:55.157 --> 00:06:58.798 and then in the aftermath of it, 00:06:58.798 --> 00:07:02.671 new information keeps coming out, 00:07:02.671 --> 00:07:05.561 lies get uncovered, 00:07:05.561 --> 00:07:07.816 your husband basically acts like 00:07:07.816 --> 00:07:09.458 now that he's repented it's over 00:07:09.458 --> 00:07:13.317 and you ought to just get over it. 00:07:13.317 --> 00:07:15.658 No, I would say that all those things 00:07:15.658 --> 00:07:20.149 are exactly going to keep the wound 00:07:20.149 --> 00:07:23.838 opening up afresh. 00:07:23.838 --> 00:07:26.924 What do you tell her? 00:07:26.924 --> 00:07:30.514 Let's start right there. Can I get a divorce? 00:07:30.514 --> 00:07:35.405 What do you tell her? 00:07:35.405 --> 00:07:38.961 I don't even think that she really wants one. 00:07:38.961 --> 00:07:42.261 But she's asking the question. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:42.261 --> 00:07:43.276 (from the room) 00:07:43.276 --> 00:07:45.828 I don't think that's something that you give 00:07:45.828 --> 00:07:48.866 strong response to right away 00:07:48.866 --> 00:07:50.967 because of the nature of it. 00:07:50.967 --> 00:07:53.262 She doesn't seem like she wants a divorce. 00:07:53.262 --> 00:07:55.695 The guy has been unfaithful. 00:07:55.695 --> 00:07:58.092 She's not going to just get over it. 00:07:58.092 --> 00:08:01.863 She seems to want to get over it. 00:08:01.863 --> 00:08:06.100 You don't have a quick answer for something like that. 00:08:06.100 --> 00:08:07.994 I can't think - even though I know 00:08:07.994 --> 00:08:09.779 what Scripture says about divorce 00:08:09.779 --> 00:08:12.037 and the grounds for divorce - 00:08:12.037 --> 00:08:14.754 she doesn't seem that she really wants to. 00:08:14.754 --> 00:08:17.094 What quick response can you give to that? NOTE Paragraph 00:08:17.094 --> 00:08:19.407 Tim: Well, she may want to know 00:08:19.407 --> 00:08:21.751 that she biblically can 00:08:21.751 --> 00:08:24.167 even though she doesn't want to 00:08:24.167 --> 00:08:28.416 so that it's kind of a weapon in her arsenal 00:08:28.416 --> 00:08:31.660 to leverage over the guy. 00:08:31.660 --> 00:08:33.655 I'm just saying that could be. 00:08:33.655 --> 00:08:38.059 But I mean, just from a purely biblical standpoint, 00:08:38.059 --> 00:08:41.372 (incomplete thought) 00:08:41.372 --> 00:08:43.532 Let me ask you this. 00:08:43.532 --> 00:08:50.748 If she divorced her husband, 00:08:50.748 --> 00:08:54.387 if she was in our church 00:08:54.387 --> 00:08:57.138 and she divorced her husband, 00:08:57.138 --> 00:08:59.973 should we say, 00:08:59.973 --> 00:09:06.452 well, she had biblical grounds? 00:09:06.452 --> 00:09:12.883 Would we say, well, we counseled her against it, 00:09:12.883 --> 00:09:16.768 but she did actually have biblical grounds? 00:09:16.768 --> 00:09:24.713 Would we say no? She can't? 00:09:24.713 --> 00:09:27.069 And there would be consequences if she did? 00:09:27.069 --> 00:09:32.112 Maybe some kind of disciplinary consequences. 00:09:32.112 --> 00:09:36.442 Well, let me ask you this. 00:09:36.442 --> 00:09:41.216 If a woman has a husband who's unfaithful, 00:09:41.216 --> 00:09:43.130 he says he's repented. 00:09:43.130 --> 00:09:47.880 He doesn't go on in his sin. 00:09:47.880 --> 00:09:54.521 And she seems to really desire to forgive him, 00:09:54.521 --> 00:09:57.840 is there a cutoff point? 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.256 Would you say that she has a right 00:10:01.256 --> 00:10:03.916 25 years down the road to say 00:10:03.916 --> 00:10:05.948 you know what? 00:10:05.948 --> 00:10:08.588 My husband was unfaithful 25 years ago 00:10:08.588 --> 00:10:11.123 and I want out. 00:10:11.123 --> 00:10:13.058 I just got sick of this relationship 00:10:13.058 --> 00:10:14.354 and I've got a biblical out 00:10:14.354 --> 00:10:16.654 and I'm going to take it and use it now. 00:10:16.654 --> 00:10:20.906 Is that like a get out of jail free card? 00:10:20.906 --> 00:10:27.617 Seriously, the exception points 00:10:27.617 --> 00:10:36.628 that are made there in Matthew 5 and 19, 00:10:36.628 --> 00:10:41.184 if there's sexual immorality - 00:10:41.184 --> 00:10:44.181 except in the case of sexual immorality. 00:10:44.181 --> 00:10:48.183 Is there, whether we put a distinct 00:10:48.183 --> 00:10:50.073 amount of time on it or not, 00:10:50.073 --> 00:10:52.317 is there a time? 00:10:52.317 --> 00:10:56.558 When Jesus says except for sexual immorality, 00:10:56.558 --> 00:11:00.202 does He mean that well, if you have a spouse 00:11:00.202 --> 00:11:03.671 who's been sexually immoral, 00:11:03.671 --> 00:11:06.633 and once they've done that, 00:11:06.633 --> 00:11:10.833 you basically have a right to divorce them at anytime? 00:11:10.833 --> 00:11:13.732 Or is there a timeline? 00:11:13.732 --> 00:11:15.452 Would we say there is a time 00:11:15.452 --> 00:11:16.843 that if enough time goes by, 00:11:16.843 --> 00:11:20.252 that it would be inappropriate? 00:11:20.252 --> 00:11:23.318 What say you? 00:11:23.318 --> 00:11:27.914 Scripture. 00:11:27.914 --> 00:11:32.003 What Scripture has to do with what's right? 00:11:32.003 --> 00:11:34.643 What's loving? What's appropiate? 00:11:34.643 --> 00:11:45.013 What's God-like? What's Christ-like? NOTE Paragraph 00:11:45.013 --> 00:11:46.077 (from the room) 00:11:46.077 --> 00:11:52.773 Would 1 Corinthians 7:3-14 00:11:52.773 --> 00:11:58.927 be applicable to this situation? 00:11:58.927 --> 00:12:05.209 (unintelligible) NOTE Paragraph 00:12:05.209 --> 00:12:07.089 Tim: Which verse specifically 00:12:07.089 --> 00:12:09.540 are you thinking is applicable? NOTE Paragraph 00:12:09.540 --> 00:12:10.637 (from the room) 00:12:10.637 --> 00:12:15.577 It's 1 Corinthians 7:13. 00:12:15.577 --> 00:12:17.406 "If any woman has a husband 00:12:17.406 --> 00:12:18.765 who is an unbeliever 00:12:18.765 --> 00:12:21.384 and consents to live with her, 00:12:21.384 --> 00:12:23.057 she should not divorce him. 00:12:23.057 --> 00:12:24.412 For the unbelieving husband 00:12:24.412 --> 00:12:30.349 is made holy because of his wife." NOTE Paragraph 00:12:30.349 --> 00:12:33.057 Tim: But that situation doesn't necessarily 00:12:33.057 --> 00:12:35.992 bring in the sexual immorality. 00:12:35.992 --> 00:12:40.918 Whereas the Matthew texts 00:12:40.918 --> 00:12:45.427 do bring in that specific reality. 00:12:45.427 --> 00:12:49.358 Let me ask you this. 00:12:49.358 --> 00:12:51.625 Do you think that it's possible 00:12:51.625 --> 00:13:00.115 to forgive the husband and still divorce him? 00:13:00.115 --> 00:13:04.658 I hear no. I hear yes. 00:13:04.658 --> 00:13:06.788 Could you imagine a situation 00:13:06.788 --> 00:13:11.381 where forgiving him - which is good, 00:13:11.381 --> 00:13:13.367 appropriate, 00:13:13.367 --> 00:13:18.675 letting go of the bitterness that you feel, 00:13:18.675 --> 00:13:24.612 where it still would be necessary to divorce him? 00:13:24.612 --> 00:13:30.393 (unintelligible) 00:13:30.393 --> 00:13:33.885 I mean, what if your husband 00:13:33.885 --> 00:13:39.184 actually was involved in pedophilia or something 00:13:39.184 --> 00:13:43.037 and you've got kids. 00:13:43.037 --> 00:13:44.533 Is it possible to forgive him 00:13:44.533 --> 00:13:47.841 and yet recognize I've got to get out of this 00:13:47.841 --> 00:13:49.632 perhaps for my own safety 00:13:49.632 --> 00:13:52.049 or for the safety of the children? 00:13:52.049 --> 00:13:54.707 Perhaps that could be. 00:13:54.707 --> 00:13:57.245 That doesn't seem like this situation. 00:13:57.245 --> 00:14:01.433 And clearly it's a different situation 00:14:01.433 --> 00:14:04.466 when you have a spouse who's continuing 00:14:04.466 --> 00:14:07.907 in their sexual immorality. 00:14:07.907 --> 00:14:10.630 But when you have somebody that's committed it 00:14:10.630 --> 00:14:13.764 and then they're repentant... 00:14:13.764 --> 00:14:15.858 Now, I recognize, we could wrestle with 00:14:15.858 --> 00:14:18.408 well, is he sincere? Is he not sincere? 00:14:18.408 --> 00:14:20.075 But do you think that a Christian 00:14:20.075 --> 00:14:26.283 has an obligation to remain in the marriage 00:14:26.283 --> 00:14:32.848 if the spouse repents? 00:14:32.848 --> 00:14:38.326 Is it an obligation? NOTE Paragraph 00:14:38.326 --> 00:14:42.150 Open your Bibles to Matthew 19. 00:14:42.150 --> 00:14:43.424 You're already there. 00:14:43.424 --> 00:14:48.158 Look at 19:1, 00:14:48.158 --> 00:14:50.602 "Now when Jesus had finished these sayings 00:14:50.602 --> 00:14:52.563 He went away from Galilee 00:14:52.563 --> 00:14:56.012 and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 00:14:56.012 --> 00:14:57.478 Large crowds followed Him 00:14:57.478 --> 00:14:59.539 and He healed them there. 00:14:59.539 --> 00:15:01.852 And Pharisees came up to Him and tested Him 00:15:01.852 --> 00:15:03.909 by asking 'is it lawful to divorce 00:15:03.909 --> 00:15:05.790 one's wife for any cause?' 00:15:05.790 --> 00:15:07.381 He answered, 'have you not read 00:15:07.381 --> 00:15:09.597 that He Who created them from the beginning 00:15:09.597 --> 00:15:11.231 made them male and female?' 00:15:11.231 --> 00:15:12.798 And said, 'therefore a man shall 00:15:12.798 --> 00:15:14.480 leave his father and his mother 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.522 and hold fast to his wife, 00:15:16.522 --> 00:15:18.931 and the two shall become one flesh. 00:15:18.931 --> 00:15:21.508 So they're no longer two, but one flesh. 00:15:21.508 --> 00:15:23.380 What therefore God has joined together, 00:15:23.380 --> 00:15:25.348 let not man separate.' 00:15:25.348 --> 00:15:27.161 They said to Him, 'Why then did Moses 00:15:27.161 --> 00:15:30.111 command one to give a certificate of divorce 00:15:30.111 --> 00:15:32.107 and to send her away?' 00:15:32.107 --> 00:15:34.671 He said to them, 'Because of your hardness of heart 00:15:34.671 --> 00:15:37.406 Moses allowed you to divorce your wives. 00:15:37.406 --> 00:15:39.900 But from the beginning, it was not so. 00:15:39.900 --> 00:15:43.539 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:46.504 except for sexual immorality 00:15:46.504 --> 00:15:49.420 and marries another, commits adultery.'" 00:15:49.420 --> 00:15:58.840 So there is an exception there. 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:03.902 So okay, with the exception - 00:16:03.902 --> 00:16:05.847 now this is speaking of a man. 00:16:05.847 --> 00:16:09.528 It was a very man-dominated society then. 00:16:09.528 --> 00:16:11.983 But nevertheless, a woman 00:16:11.983 --> 00:16:15.836 divorces a husband because of sexual immorality. 00:16:15.836 --> 00:16:20.905 It seems like there's an exception there. 00:16:20.905 --> 00:16:22.687 There's an exception, 00:16:22.687 --> 00:16:24.978 but there certainly isn't a mandate. 00:16:24.978 --> 00:16:29.927 It's not commanded. 00:16:29.927 --> 00:16:33.567 Do we not feel that a Christian 00:16:33.567 --> 00:16:37.355 who forgives sin against themselves - 00:16:37.355 --> 00:16:40.238 that's very Christ-like. 00:16:40.238 --> 00:16:43.249 For her to forgive her husband - 00:16:43.249 --> 00:16:45.235 very Christ-like. 00:16:45.235 --> 00:16:47.609 Would we not agree with that? 00:16:47.609 --> 00:16:49.585 He's claiming to have repented. 00:16:49.585 --> 00:16:54.937 She says for the last two years - 00:16:54.937 --> 00:16:58.325 that's 24 months - she says for 22 months, 00:16:58.325 --> 00:17:00.271 things have actually gone fairly well. 00:17:00.271 --> 00:17:02.997 Now there's these triggers that keep opening it up, 00:17:02.997 --> 00:17:05.060 but once he came clean, she says, 00:17:05.060 --> 00:17:11.537 that things were pretty good. 00:17:11.537 --> 00:17:13.254 What do you tell her? 00:17:13.254 --> 00:17:14.628 She's got these triggers. 00:17:14.628 --> 00:17:18.385 She's got these difficulties. 00:17:18.385 --> 00:17:27.414 What could you tell her that would really help her? NOTE Paragraph 00:17:27.414 --> 00:17:28.395 (from the room) 00:17:28.395 --> 00:17:30.942 Do you think that telling her that love 00:17:30.942 --> 00:17:34.466 does not keep a record of wrongdoing, 00:17:34.466 --> 00:17:37.400 if she truly has forgiven him... 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:39.520 for example, like you said, if we tell her 00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:41.417 that biblically she can divorce, 00:17:41.417 --> 00:17:42.880 is there a time limit? 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:44.603 Well, let's say 25 years from now 00:17:44.603 --> 00:17:47.368 she wants to divorce. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:47.368 --> 00:17:49.206 Tim: Here's the thing. 00:17:49.206 --> 00:17:52.214 You can say that, 00:17:52.214 --> 00:17:54.087 but here's the problem. 00:17:54.087 --> 00:17:55.937 If you were married and your husband 00:17:55.937 --> 00:17:59.449 was the one who was unfaithful, 00:17:59.449 --> 00:18:04.415 and then as you're moving forward, 00:18:04.415 --> 00:18:09.426 you keep finding inconsistencies with his stories, 00:18:09.426 --> 00:18:15.285 and instead of calling the woman a "mistress," 00:18:15.285 --> 00:18:20.926 he's referring to her as an ex-girlfriend. 00:18:20.926 --> 00:18:25.944 And his lies keep coming back 00:18:25.944 --> 00:18:28.134 so that the wound keeps getting re-opened. 00:18:28.134 --> 00:18:31.809 You wouldn't be impervious to that. 00:18:31.809 --> 00:18:36.728 Your trust is destroyed. 00:18:36.728 --> 00:18:39.271 And the thing is inconsistencies in his stories 00:18:39.271 --> 00:18:41.235 keep coming up. 00:18:41.235 --> 00:18:43.963 And he keeps referring to the woman 00:18:43.963 --> 00:18:49.104 in terms (incomplete thought). 00:18:49.104 --> 00:18:50.190 What's that? 00:18:50.190 --> 00:18:51.078 (from the room) 00:18:51.078 --> 00:18:54.249 What keeps bringing that issue up though? NOTE Paragraph 00:18:54.249 --> 00:18:56.978 Tim: Well, it's going to come up. 00:18:56.978 --> 00:18:59.765 I mean, it sounds like he's speaking 00:18:59.765 --> 00:19:01.599 to other people about it 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.644 and it gets back to her ears 00:19:03.644 --> 00:19:06.217 that he's referring to her in terms 00:19:06.217 --> 00:19:10.629 that seem to lessen the severity of his sin. 00:19:10.629 --> 00:19:12.534 And then, can you imagine 00:19:12.534 --> 00:19:16.238 if you're wanting to talk, 00:19:16.238 --> 00:19:18.338 especially when there's inconsistencies 00:19:18.338 --> 00:19:21.741 and you've got questions, 00:19:21.741 --> 00:19:23.242 and when you ask about them 00:19:23.242 --> 00:19:25.156 and you get upset, 00:19:25.156 --> 00:19:29.458 he's telling you that you're the one who's wrong. 00:19:29.458 --> 00:19:31.370 You're just holding on to it. 00:19:31.370 --> 00:19:32.563 You're crazy. 00:19:32.563 --> 00:19:34.590 You're still wrestling with these things. 00:19:34.590 --> 00:19:39.794 Get over it. 00:19:39.794 --> 00:19:41.556 Listen, those things would be 00:19:41.556 --> 00:19:47.001 incredibly hurtful and wound opening events. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:47.001 --> 00:19:48.139 (from the room) 00:19:48.139 --> 00:19:50.740 It kind of reminds me of David in Psalm 55, 00:19:50.740 --> 00:19:52.853 some of the things he said there, 00:19:52.853 --> 00:19:54.825 that my companion stretched out his hand; 00:19:54.825 --> 00:19:56.146 he violated his covenant. 00:19:56.146 --> 00:19:58.808 And here this lady's marriage has been violated. 00:19:58.808 --> 00:20:01.217 And David felt like flying away 00:20:01.217 --> 00:20:02.904 from the situation, 00:20:02.904 --> 00:20:06.385 but ultimately cast his burden on the Lord. 00:20:06.385 --> 00:20:07.996 And I guess if she's determined 00:20:07.996 --> 00:20:09.753 to love her husband, 00:20:09.753 --> 00:20:12.116 all those reminders are a reminder 00:20:12.116 --> 00:20:14.248 ultimately to go back to Christ, 00:20:14.248 --> 00:20:15.984 to cast her burden on Him, 00:20:15.984 --> 00:20:18.406 and just plead for mercy 00:20:18.406 --> 00:20:19.877 and help from the Lord. 00:20:19.877 --> 00:20:21.405 And He's going to give that. 00:20:21.405 --> 00:20:22.684 And if it's getting better 00:20:22.684 --> 00:20:24.006 in these last two years, 00:20:24.006 --> 00:20:25.765 I would assume in five years, 00:20:25.765 --> 00:20:28.395 it's even going to be more bearable, 00:20:28.395 --> 00:20:29.745 better hopefully. 00:20:29.745 --> 00:20:32.217 Hopefully God would save her husband. 00:20:32.217 --> 00:20:33.804 If she's going to stay with him, 00:20:33.804 --> 00:20:35.305 what other option does she have 00:20:35.305 --> 00:20:36.573 but to rely on the Lord? NOTE Paragraph 00:20:36.573 --> 00:20:39.452 Tim: Yeah, one of the things I wrote down 00:20:39.452 --> 00:20:43.217 is to encourage her to not forget 00:20:43.217 --> 00:20:45.097 the power of prayer 00:20:45.097 --> 00:20:47.590 and laying hold on the Lord 00:20:47.590 --> 00:20:52.218 and asking for supernatural grace. 00:20:52.218 --> 00:20:57.427 But here's the thing, 00:20:57.427 --> 00:20:59.123 there are women who navigate 00:20:59.123 --> 00:21:02.903 these kinds of situations 00:21:02.903 --> 00:21:07.759 and they navigate it to the honor and glory of the Lord. 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:09.683 But I think one of the things 00:21:09.683 --> 00:21:12.018 that you need to navigate it 00:21:12.018 --> 00:21:17.485 is you have to think right. 00:21:17.485 --> 00:21:22.773 And you have to think truth. 00:21:22.773 --> 00:21:24.632 And one of the things 00:21:24.632 --> 00:21:27.775 is to surround yourself with people 00:21:27.775 --> 00:21:31.267 who are going to bring you back to the truth 00:21:31.267 --> 00:21:33.544 all the time. 00:21:33.544 --> 00:21:36.989 And I think that's being in a good church, 00:21:36.989 --> 00:21:39.085 surrounding yourself with people 00:21:39.085 --> 00:21:41.013 that truly help you. 00:21:41.013 --> 00:21:42.739 There are people who don't help. 00:21:42.739 --> 00:21:45.378 There are people who - even professing Christians 00:21:45.378 --> 00:21:47.535 and perhaps genuine Christians 00:21:47.535 --> 00:21:51.974 who give wrong advice, bad advice, 00:21:51.974 --> 00:21:55.053 and it's not helpful. 00:21:55.053 --> 00:21:56.562 It's not healing. 00:21:56.562 --> 00:21:59.266 You need to surround yourself with people 00:21:59.266 --> 00:22:02.035 who really are going to guide you into truth 00:22:02.035 --> 00:22:03.679 that is helpful, 00:22:03.679 --> 00:22:08.779 that will help you get across these hurdles. 00:22:08.779 --> 00:22:12.855 And they don't always need to be living people. 00:22:12.855 --> 00:22:15.943 One of the reasons I grabbed 00:22:15.943 --> 00:22:19.539 "The Sympathy of Christ," by Octavius Winslow 00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:26.344 off my shelf is the sympathy of Christ. 00:22:26.344 --> 00:22:33.977 The reality is we have a sympathetic High Priest. 00:22:33.977 --> 00:22:35.990 This is one of the greatest books 00:22:35.990 --> 00:22:41.543 that I have on my shelf for suffering people. 00:22:41.543 --> 00:22:45.072 Because what it does is it takes you close to Christ. 00:22:45.072 --> 00:22:50.222 And it shows you His suffering and His sympathy 00:22:50.222 --> 00:22:54.219 for the suffering. 00:22:54.219 --> 00:22:57.484 Because the truth is that Jesus 00:22:57.484 --> 00:23:01.630 has been in a place where He suffered the rejection, 00:23:01.630 --> 00:23:04.115 He suffered the hurt, 00:23:04.115 --> 00:23:09.093 He's been there. 00:23:09.093 --> 00:23:10.676 And I think that's critical, 00:23:10.676 --> 00:23:14.973 but think right. Think right. 00:23:14.973 --> 00:23:20.296 What we need to be called back to 00:23:20.296 --> 00:23:23.981 especially when we're suffering - 00:23:23.981 --> 00:23:26.742 (incomplete thought) 00:23:26.742 --> 00:23:29.284 I especially think about the Apostle Paul 00:23:29.284 --> 00:23:30.614 or the Apostle Peter. 00:23:30.614 --> 00:23:32.544 When they're dealing with people 00:23:32.544 --> 00:23:36.610 who are suffering, what did they do? 00:23:36.610 --> 00:23:39.068 They didn't say just get over it. You're crazy. 00:23:39.068 --> 00:23:44.745 They brought truth to appeal to the mind. 00:23:44.745 --> 00:23:46.326 That's what they did. 00:23:46.326 --> 00:23:49.899 They came in and they said look, 00:23:49.899 --> 00:23:51.503 we're not going to say 00:23:51.503 --> 00:23:54.603 your suffering isn't suffering. 00:23:54.603 --> 00:24:00.778 But, your suffering - it feels long, 00:24:00.778 --> 00:24:05.139 it feels hard - it's momentary. 00:24:05.139 --> 00:24:07.841 Fifty years from now, 00:24:07.841 --> 00:24:09.918 this sister will be with the Lord. 00:24:09.918 --> 00:24:13.135 She'll be in Paradise. 00:24:13.135 --> 00:24:16.374 Every tear will be wiped away. 00:24:16.374 --> 00:24:18.677 So we need to keep it in perspective. 00:24:18.677 --> 00:24:23.732 Momentary, light affliction is all 00:24:23.732 --> 00:24:26.523 that our suffering in this life is called. 00:24:26.523 --> 00:24:29.182 And it's going to give way, 00:24:29.182 --> 00:24:33.584 give place to an eternal weight of glory. 00:24:33.584 --> 00:24:35.584 But you think - you think. 00:24:35.584 --> 00:24:40.113 What truths does this woman [need?] 00:24:40.113 --> 00:24:43.081 Obviously, the truths of the cross. 00:24:43.081 --> 00:24:47.390 The truths of God's forgiveness of her. 00:24:47.390 --> 00:24:53.003 That's got to be the foundation. 00:24:53.003 --> 00:24:55.080 I'm forgiven. 00:24:55.080 --> 00:24:57.865 After what I've done, I'm forgiven. 00:24:57.865 --> 00:25:03.084 After what I've done to Him, I'm forgiven. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:03.084 --> 00:25:07.672 Another thing that is essential 00:25:07.672 --> 00:25:13.288 is coming back to the truth, 00:25:13.288 --> 00:25:15.749 God has promised 00:25:15.749 --> 00:25:17.982 to never leave us or forsake us. 00:25:17.982 --> 00:25:19.782 Because you know what the temptation 00:25:19.782 --> 00:25:20.735 in trial is. 00:25:20.735 --> 00:25:22.333 The devil's right there to say, 00:25:22.333 --> 00:25:24.569 "Look, God's vacated. 00:25:24.569 --> 00:25:25.694 You're on your own. 00:25:25.694 --> 00:25:27.584 He's not helping you. He's silent. 00:25:27.584 --> 00:25:29.895 You're praying to Him? 00:25:29.895 --> 00:25:32.149 This isn't going away. 00:25:32.149 --> 00:25:35.067 He's not hearing you." 00:25:35.067 --> 00:25:37.216 And I know Charles Leiter has said 00:25:37.216 --> 00:25:40.239 that the Gardener is never so close 00:25:40.239 --> 00:25:41.938 as when He's pruning. 00:25:41.938 --> 00:25:43.857 And I've come across it somewhere else, 00:25:43.857 --> 00:25:45.542 maybe Matthew Henry, 00:25:45.542 --> 00:25:49.598 that the Refiner is never so close to the gold... 00:25:49.598 --> 00:25:51.133 You could speak to that. 00:25:51.133 --> 00:25:53.010 I mean, you put the silver and gold 00:25:53.010 --> 00:25:54.170 in the kiln. 00:25:54.170 --> 00:25:56.888 You're not far away 00:25:56.888 --> 00:26:00.304 when the gold's cooking in the kiln, 00:26:00.304 --> 00:26:03.642 and you're getting the impurities out. 00:26:03.642 --> 00:26:05.423 And that's the reality. 00:26:05.423 --> 00:26:08.248 What we have to be brought back to is this, 00:26:08.248 --> 00:26:17.224 that God is specifically ordering my suffering. 00:26:17.224 --> 00:26:20.864 We have to be confident in that. 00:26:20.864 --> 00:26:25.962 Otherwise, we have no foundation to stand on. 00:26:25.962 --> 00:26:31.311 We have to be able to say 00:26:31.311 --> 00:26:34.962 all things are indeed working together for my good. 00:26:34.962 --> 00:26:37.350 I have to believe in a God 00:26:37.350 --> 00:26:42.941 that is entirely in control 00:26:42.941 --> 00:26:47.118 of every nuance of my life, 00:26:47.118 --> 00:26:49.090 and that He's guiding. 00:26:49.090 --> 00:26:50.854 And that He is the God Who says 00:26:50.854 --> 00:26:53.062 He does not willingly afflict the sons of men. 00:26:53.062 --> 00:26:54.705 What does that mean? It's the idea 00:26:54.705 --> 00:26:56.252 that He doesn't from the heart. 00:26:56.252 --> 00:26:58.246 He doesn't because He's cruel. 00:26:58.246 --> 00:27:02.762 Now look, He's a God Who's just. 00:27:02.762 --> 00:27:05.253 But there's sensitivity with God. 00:27:05.253 --> 00:27:09.509 I mean, you definitely get the idea in Scripture, 00:27:09.509 --> 00:27:13.030 God does not need to have His arm twisted 00:27:13.030 --> 00:27:15.033 to show mercy. 00:27:15.033 --> 00:27:18.794 It seems more difficult for Him to mete out justice. 00:27:18.794 --> 00:27:23.301 But entirely consistent with His character, 00:27:23.301 --> 00:27:26.492 He must. 00:27:26.492 --> 00:27:29.412 But just the idea that He's not willing 00:27:29.412 --> 00:27:31.962 to afflict the sons of men. 00:27:31.962 --> 00:27:35.451 It's this idea that God is going to bring 00:27:35.451 --> 00:27:39.148 the suffering that's for our good. NOTE Paragraph 00:27:39.148 --> 00:27:44.240 I'd tell her you don't want to use your mouth like that 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.172 with your husband. 00:27:46.172 --> 00:27:48.522 You don't want any profanity to come out. 00:27:48.522 --> 00:27:49.522 That's wrong. 00:27:49.522 --> 00:27:53.180 No matter what he's done, that's wrong. 00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:58.521 And she talks about the repenting that she does, 00:27:58.521 --> 00:28:01.033 but it really needs to be the kind of repenting 00:28:01.033 --> 00:28:05.829 where she eliminates that from her life totally. 00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:07.768 She needs that. 00:28:07.768 --> 00:28:09.486 There needs to be a real holiness 00:28:09.486 --> 00:28:11.069 being worked out there 00:28:11.069 --> 00:28:12.242 in the fear of God. 00:28:12.242 --> 00:28:14.610 There needs to be a cleansing. 00:28:14.610 --> 00:28:17.811 The tongue needs to be set in order. 00:28:17.811 --> 00:28:19.752 And she needs the grace. 00:28:19.752 --> 00:28:22.290 Just because her husband may be 00:28:22.290 --> 00:28:24.631 reopening the wound and triggers may come, 00:28:24.631 --> 00:28:29.067 that is no excuse for her to do that. 00:28:29.067 --> 00:28:31.795 I mean, we understand the circumstances 00:28:31.795 --> 00:28:33.500 and that it's really difficult. 00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:36.568 We're not saying it isn't difficult. 00:28:36.568 --> 00:28:37.859 It is. 00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:42.586 She's in an incredibly difficult situation. 00:28:42.586 --> 00:28:44.458 I mean, do you ladies have anything 00:28:44.458 --> 00:28:49.504 that you would add that you would tell her? NOTE Paragraph 00:28:49.504 --> 00:28:50.440 (from the room) 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:52.065 I was just going to ask 00:28:52.065 --> 00:28:53.564 on a practical level. 00:28:53.564 --> 00:28:57.942 Is there a time when godly counsel 00:28:57.942 --> 00:29:03.964 is to go seek help from elders, 00:29:03.964 --> 00:29:05.803 from people in your church, 00:29:05.803 --> 00:29:10.049 to counsel the two of them together 00:29:10.049 --> 00:29:14.404 if he saying that he has repented 00:29:14.404 --> 00:29:15.763 and has turned from that, 00:29:15.763 --> 00:29:18.784 but there are signs that maybe that is not true. 00:29:18.784 --> 00:29:21.130 Is there a time when it's not just dealt 00:29:21.130 --> 00:29:25.188 with the two of them, they need to go out? 00:29:25.188 --> 00:29:28.186 Like within their body? NOTE Paragraph 00:29:28.186 --> 00:29:33.088 Tim: Yes, I mean, definitely counseling. 00:29:33.088 --> 00:29:37.093 Definitely whether that's pastoral counseling 00:29:37.093 --> 00:29:38.913 with the pastors 00:29:38.913 --> 00:29:41.561 or whether there's some kind of counseling 00:29:41.561 --> 00:29:46.143 with a counselor, 00:29:46.143 --> 00:29:48.871 if both of them can be involved, 00:29:48.871 --> 00:29:51.364 that's definitely a good place. 00:29:51.364 --> 00:29:54.773 My assumption in this 00:29:54.773 --> 00:29:56.226 is that you have a husband 00:29:56.226 --> 00:30:00.567 that's professing to have repented 00:30:00.567 --> 00:30:02.665 and he feels like now he's actually 00:30:02.665 --> 00:30:06.774 even reached some state of perfection or something. 00:30:06.774 --> 00:30:10.667 The feeling I get is he probably 00:30:10.667 --> 00:30:13.140 isn't a genuine Christian. 00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:14.489 Now, that still doesn't mean 00:30:14.489 --> 00:30:17.181 that there couldn't be some good things 00:30:17.181 --> 00:30:22.075 achieved if you can get them both into counseling. 00:30:22.075 --> 00:30:29.879 But that would be good if he's willing to do that. 00:30:29.879 --> 00:30:31.884 But sometimes I guess we just 00:30:31.884 --> 00:30:36.144 have to recognize 00:30:36.144 --> 00:30:41.415 that a guy like this might not be willing. 00:30:41.415 --> 00:30:43.728 Without knowing the real details there, 00:30:43.728 --> 00:30:44.960 he might not be willing, 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.092 or even if he was willing for a time to go, 00:30:48.092 --> 00:30:49.987 if he's not genuinely converted, 00:30:49.987 --> 00:30:52.991 difficult to know how much fruit there may be. 00:30:52.991 --> 00:30:55.650 Sometimes in these situations 00:30:55.650 --> 00:30:57.312 if you've got one that's converted 00:30:57.312 --> 00:30:59.878 and the other one it's pretty obvious they're not, 00:30:59.878 --> 00:31:05.984 you really have to focus in on the one that's saved 00:31:05.984 --> 00:31:07.760 to do the right thing. 00:31:07.760 --> 00:31:09.664 Because if the lost member, 00:31:09.664 --> 00:31:11.707 even if they're going to counseling, 00:31:11.707 --> 00:31:14.078 they just lack the equipment 00:31:14.078 --> 00:31:19.022 to handle this thing in a godly fashion. 00:31:19.022 --> 00:31:20.747 And perhaps they even need to be 00:31:20.747 --> 00:31:26.407 dealt with about their false profession. 00:31:26.407 --> 00:31:30.490 And the thing is if the Lord's in it, 00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:32.801 then yeah, you'll get wonderful fruit, 00:31:32.801 --> 00:31:34.508 because if God saves him, 00:31:34.508 --> 00:31:38.264 then the thing will really heal. 00:31:38.264 --> 00:31:40.767 But if the Lord isn't in it, 00:31:40.767 --> 00:31:43.204 dealing with him like that is probably 00:31:43.204 --> 00:31:46.341 going to chase him away from the counseling. 00:31:46.341 --> 00:31:48.501 And he will all the more quickly 00:31:48.501 --> 00:31:51.435 not want to be involved. 00:31:51.435 --> 00:31:53.170 Somebody had a hand up just now. NOTE Paragraph 00:31:53.170 --> 00:31:54.382 (from the room) 00:31:54.382 --> 00:31:56.639 I was just thinking that she might also 00:31:56.639 --> 00:31:58.339 still be dwelling on it because 00:31:58.339 --> 00:32:03.467 he did not confess - he got caught. 00:32:03.467 --> 00:32:04.875 So that could be something 00:32:04.875 --> 00:32:09.900 that she's still thinking about. NOTE Paragraph 00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:12.752 Tim: Yeah, she's going to play it over and over in her mind. 00:32:12.752 --> 00:32:15.426 And I'll guarantee, we view things 00:32:15.426 --> 00:32:17.459 as elders in the church like that. 00:32:17.459 --> 00:32:20.429 We take very much into consideration 00:32:20.429 --> 00:32:22.572 when sin is exposed - 00:32:22.572 --> 00:32:24.260 did they get caught? 00:32:24.260 --> 00:32:29.251 Or did they come and confess? 00:32:29.251 --> 00:32:31.659 So often when people get caught, 00:32:31.659 --> 00:32:34.021 then they say, "Oh, I repent." 00:32:34.021 --> 00:32:37.113 Well, now it's very questionable. 00:32:37.113 --> 00:32:38.550 Now you got caught. 00:32:38.550 --> 00:32:43.851 You were forced to now play the part. 00:32:43.851 --> 00:32:46.663 So yes, I think any woman, 00:32:46.663 --> 00:32:49.466 that would be a big issue. 00:32:49.466 --> 00:32:54.600 That yeah, he didn't come and confess this to me. 00:32:54.600 --> 00:32:56.641 He got caught. 00:32:56.641 --> 00:33:00.011 And then the thing that it seems like 00:33:00.011 --> 00:33:01.461 she's bringing out - 00:33:01.461 --> 00:33:02.750 because we've seen this. 00:33:02.750 --> 00:33:04.570 We see this with sin. 00:33:04.570 --> 00:33:07.491 A person gets caught. 00:33:07.491 --> 00:33:11.282 Now they confess, but later 00:33:11.282 --> 00:33:12.856 it becomes discovered 00:33:12.856 --> 00:33:15.450 that they didn't confess everything. 00:33:15.450 --> 00:33:17.931 And now you confront them with the more. 00:33:17.931 --> 00:33:19.867 Well, now they confess it. 00:33:19.867 --> 00:33:21.835 And now they apparently repent of that. 00:33:21.835 --> 00:33:25.190 But you can understand if you're a wife, 00:33:25.190 --> 00:33:27.347 and it seems like he's repented, 00:33:27.347 --> 00:33:29.269 but new things keep coming up 00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:31.968 that it's very convenient he never mentioned. 00:33:31.968 --> 00:33:34.391 The thing you're looking for when somebody repents 00:33:34.391 --> 00:33:36.409 is you just lay it all out on the table 00:33:36.409 --> 00:33:38.108 so that there's nothing hidden, 00:33:38.108 --> 00:33:40.349 nothing more that's going to come out. 00:33:40.349 --> 00:33:43.301 It's just there it all is. 00:33:43.301 --> 00:33:45.124 I'm not hiding anything. 00:33:45.124 --> 00:33:47.772 Because yes, as soon as you've got the idea, 00:33:47.772 --> 00:33:49.404 he got caught and he's only 00:33:49.404 --> 00:33:51.121 admitting what he got caught for 00:33:51.121 --> 00:33:52.720 and we keep finding out 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.823 there's more stuff that's hidden. 00:33:54.823 --> 00:33:56.954 That's one of the greatest indications 00:33:56.954 --> 00:34:00.713 that there is no genuine aspect 00:34:00.713 --> 00:34:02.188 to the repentance. 00:34:02.188 --> 00:34:06.664 It's all a put on. NOTE Paragraph 00:34:06.664 --> 00:34:07.632 (from the room) 00:34:07.632 --> 00:34:09.803 I also have a thought, 00:34:09.803 --> 00:34:12.265 in the first letter she talked a lot about 00:34:12.265 --> 00:34:14.323 his response and that at times 00:34:14.323 --> 00:34:17.882 still referring to her as ex-girlfriend 00:34:17.882 --> 00:34:19.940 and/or not disclosing everything, 00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:22.528 but in the next letter, she was like, 00:34:22.528 --> 00:34:24.855 it hasn't all been bad. 00:34:24.855 --> 00:34:27.803 There have been times where I have had 00:34:27.803 --> 00:34:30.657 him listen to my concerns. 00:34:30.657 --> 00:34:32.599 So it just made me think of when 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:35.276 in 1 Peter it's talking about suffering 00:34:35.276 --> 00:34:38.813 and her desire to actually walk 00:34:38.813 --> 00:34:41.020 pleasing to the Lord in that manner. 00:34:41.020 --> 00:34:43.875 And in knowing her weaknesses, 00:34:43.875 --> 00:34:45.513 knowing that there's triggers, 00:34:45.513 --> 00:34:48.098 knowing that the devil's going to be right there 00:34:48.098 --> 00:34:50.264 to tempt her in those weaknesses, 00:34:50.264 --> 00:34:55.509 just what it says in 1 Peter 5:6, 00:34:55.509 --> 00:34:56.884 "Humble yourselves therefore 00:34:56.884 --> 00:34:58.370 under the mighty hand of God 00:34:58.370 --> 00:34:59.740 so that at the proper time 00:34:59.740 --> 00:35:01.058 He may exalt you, 00:35:01.058 --> 00:35:03.327 casting all your anxieties on Him 00:35:03.327 --> 00:35:04.682 because He cares for you." 00:35:04.682 --> 00:35:06.252 And then this part where it says, 00:35:06.252 --> 00:35:08.172 "be sober-minded, 00:35:08.172 --> 00:35:09.192 be watchful. 00:35:09.192 --> 00:35:11.839 Your adversary, the devil, prowls around 00:35:11.839 --> 00:35:13.344 like a roaring lion 00:35:13.344 --> 00:35:15.220 seeking someone to devour. 00:35:15.220 --> 00:35:17.707 Resist him, firm in your faith, 00:35:17.707 --> 00:35:19.875 knowing that the same kinds of sufferings 00:35:19.875 --> 00:35:21.229 are being experienced 00:35:21.229 --> 00:35:23.142 by your brotherhood throughout the world 00:35:23.142 --> 00:35:25.200 and after you have suffered a little while, 00:35:25.200 --> 00:35:27.057 the God of all grace Who has called you 00:35:27.057 --> 00:35:28.936 to His eternal glory in Christ 00:35:28.936 --> 00:35:31.135 will Himself restore, confirm, 00:35:31.135 --> 00:35:33.129 strengthen, and establish you. 00:35:33.129 --> 00:35:36.713 To Him be the dominion forever and ever, amen." 00:35:36.713 --> 00:35:40.523 So it seems like she wants to fight against it 00:35:40.523 --> 00:35:42.913 and just trusting in those things 00:35:42.913 --> 00:35:46.537 and God's enabled her to fight against it 00:35:46.537 --> 00:35:48.393 and to humble herself before Him 00:35:48.393 --> 00:35:51.096 and to cast her anxieties on Him 00:35:51.096 --> 00:35:52.567 in this season. 00:35:52.567 --> 00:35:55.245 It seems like she recognizes 00:35:55.245 --> 00:35:57.579 that things are getting a little bit better. 00:35:57.579 --> 00:36:06.409 She's enduring and trusting more. NOTE Paragraph 00:36:06.415 --> 00:36:08.745 Tim: I'll tell you two other aspects of this 00:36:08.745 --> 00:36:12.052 that if she's rightly communicating it 00:36:12.052 --> 00:36:15.907 that are pretty good indicators 00:36:15.907 --> 00:36:21.152 that his repentance is 00:36:21.152 --> 00:36:23.923 not a godly repentance. 00:36:23.923 --> 00:36:25.944 He may have stepped away from this 00:36:25.944 --> 00:36:28.044 and he wants to preserve his marriage, 00:36:28.044 --> 00:36:31.307 but a good indication it's not godly repentance - 00:36:31.307 --> 00:36:32.986 two aspects that jump out at me 00:36:32.986 --> 00:36:39.373 is one, if a man sins against his wife that way, 00:36:39.373 --> 00:36:43.587 and he knows that calling that girl 00:36:43.587 --> 00:36:47.704 an ex-girlfriend just does not 00:36:47.704 --> 00:36:49.780 sit well with her, 00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:52.713 he should never do it again. 00:36:52.713 --> 00:36:54.783 Another thing that jumps out 00:36:54.783 --> 00:36:58.584 is that he would ever fault her 00:36:58.584 --> 00:37:01.466 for not getting over it. 00:37:01.466 --> 00:37:03.200 After what he's done, 00:37:03.200 --> 00:37:07.806 his approach should be one of shame, 00:37:07.806 --> 00:37:11.635 not fault-finding with her. 00:37:11.635 --> 00:37:16.537 So you can understand 00:37:16.537 --> 00:37:18.892 that those things would definitely 00:37:18.892 --> 00:37:27.883 reopen the wounds and be hurtful. 00:37:27.883 --> 00:37:33.017 But the thing is, you have to trust, 00:37:33.017 --> 00:37:37.223 yes, the wound keeps getting reopened, 00:37:37.223 --> 00:37:39.305 but the Lord's only going to let that wound 00:37:39.305 --> 00:37:44.177 be reopened as many times as is necessary. 00:37:44.177 --> 00:37:48.913 Never so often that it's cruel. 00:37:48.913 --> 00:37:52.456 Never so often as that it's harmful. 00:37:52.456 --> 00:37:55.519 He's going to let it happen 00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:59.359 as many times as it's useful. 00:37:59.359 --> 00:38:01.242 And clearly, she's indicating 00:38:01.242 --> 00:38:06.058 that there are some things that do need 00:38:06.058 --> 00:38:12.189 to be dredged up out of her own life. 00:38:12.189 --> 00:38:16.642 But it's very difficult. NOTE Paragraph 00:38:16.642 --> 00:38:17.763 (from the room) 00:38:17.763 --> 00:38:21.587 If he continued to refer to the woman 00:38:21.587 --> 00:38:23.340 as an ex-girlfriend 00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:27.782 and continued in that disrespect to her 00:38:27.782 --> 00:38:34.154 as his wife, 00:38:34.154 --> 00:38:36.467 would we call her to continue 00:38:36.467 --> 00:38:39.709 to endure the struggle? 00:38:39.709 --> 00:38:41.894 Or do you think at that point, 00:38:41.894 --> 00:38:45.646 like it's an intentional harm towards her 00:38:45.646 --> 00:38:46.752 by her husband? NOTE Paragraph 00:38:46.752 --> 00:38:48.587 Tim: Well, I don't think it's grounds 00:38:48.587 --> 00:38:50.305 to try to get out of the marriage. 00:38:50.305 --> 00:38:53.367 I think she needs to fight for this marriage. 00:38:53.367 --> 00:38:57.685 And like I say, I think all the more she's able 00:38:57.685 --> 00:38:59.425 even with him reopening wounds, 00:38:59.425 --> 00:39:02.021 all the more she's able to forgive him, 00:39:02.021 --> 00:39:05.943 is all the more Christlike she comes across. 00:39:05.943 --> 00:39:08.552 And you know, the truth is 00:39:08.552 --> 00:39:14.575 that 1 Peter 3 reality of seeking to win him 00:39:14.575 --> 00:39:16.352 by her conduct. 00:39:16.352 --> 00:39:18.102 And I guarantee, 00:39:18.102 --> 00:39:24.202 her throwing a blast of profanity at him 00:39:24.202 --> 00:39:26.421 does not help. 00:39:26.421 --> 00:39:28.053 It doesn't help anything. 00:39:28.053 --> 00:39:29.278 It doesn't help her. 00:39:29.278 --> 00:39:30.742 It doesn't help heal it. 00:39:30.742 --> 00:39:32.311 It doesn't help him. 00:39:32.311 --> 00:39:34.727 In no way does it help anything. 00:39:34.727 --> 00:39:38.370 But if she navigates this thing 00:39:38.370 --> 00:39:40.152 with the help of God, 00:39:40.152 --> 00:39:41.756 with the grace of God - 00:39:41.756 --> 00:39:44.159 and that's like, after what James said, 00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:46.028 I have it here - 00:39:46.028 --> 00:39:48.791 don't underestimate the power of prayer. 00:39:48.791 --> 00:39:52.242 Don't underestimate the thing that seems 00:39:52.242 --> 00:39:55.554 so impossible to let go of or to forgive 00:39:55.554 --> 00:39:57.830 or to get over, 00:39:57.830 --> 00:40:01.601 the Lord has helped His people 00:40:01.601 --> 00:40:05.743 to get over and past every one of those kinds of situations. 00:40:05.743 --> 00:40:07.808 And there is grace sufficient. 00:40:07.808 --> 00:40:10.801 And people who have experienced it 00:40:10.801 --> 00:40:19.129 can say at times, there is a supernatural help from God 00:40:19.129 --> 00:40:25.887 to forgive or to be able to cover over 00:40:25.887 --> 00:40:29.379 or to love. 00:40:29.379 --> 00:40:32.584 I was just recently talking about 00:40:32.584 --> 00:40:35.841 the Wurmbrand book that was selling for a dollar, 00:40:35.841 --> 00:40:37.280 "Tortured for Christ." 00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:38.748 You know, when they were in 00:40:38.748 --> 00:40:40.820 those Romanian prisons, 00:40:40.820 --> 00:40:44.801 the more their captors beat them, 00:40:44.801 --> 00:40:47.265 the more love they felt for the jailers. 00:40:47.265 --> 00:40:49.958 It's the guy whipping them, 00:40:49.958 --> 00:40:52.001 with every stroke of the whip, 00:40:52.001 --> 00:40:54.400 they're feeling greater love 00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:56.472 for the guy whipping them. 00:40:56.472 --> 00:40:58.271 How is that? 00:40:58.271 --> 00:41:01.581 It's just plain supernatural. 00:41:01.581 --> 00:41:04.236 But God's in the business of helping His people, 00:41:04.236 --> 00:41:08.468 so you cast your cares on Him. 00:41:08.468 --> 00:41:09.843 There's a place to come: 00:41:09.843 --> 00:41:13.434 Lord, please, he keeps reopening the wound. 00:41:13.434 --> 00:41:14.860 You know that he is. 00:41:14.860 --> 00:41:17.522 You know this hurts, Lord. 00:41:17.522 --> 00:41:21.398 You don't expect it not to hurt. 00:41:21.398 --> 00:41:24.284 I need help. Lord, I need help. 00:41:24.284 --> 00:41:29.085 In my own strength, I cannot do this. 00:41:29.085 --> 00:41:33.552 You just cast yourself on Him. 00:41:33.552 --> 00:41:35.709 And the thing is He helps His people. 00:41:35.709 --> 00:41:37.913 He really does. 00:41:37.913 --> 00:41:39.382 There's help for her. 00:41:39.382 --> 00:41:41.949 And I think she's experiencing some of that help. 00:41:41.949 --> 00:41:43.962 But I think there's areas 00:41:43.962 --> 00:41:48.919 where there's still defilement 00:41:48.919 --> 00:41:54.416 in her own life that needs to be cleansed. 00:41:54.416 --> 00:41:57.892 She needs to control her tongue. 00:41:57.892 --> 00:42:00.545 And that doesn't seem like it's in place, 00:42:00.545 --> 00:42:03.009 not if she's letting loose 00:42:03.009 --> 00:42:12.988 with a flurry of profanity. 00:42:12.988 --> 00:42:19.815 Well, anything else? NOTE Paragraph 00:42:19.815 --> 00:42:21.007 (from the room) 00:42:21.007 --> 00:42:22.719 I would say to her 00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:24.751 to just exhaust every avenue 00:42:24.751 --> 00:42:27.376 of overcoming it with love 00:42:27.376 --> 00:42:31.643 and persistence in prayer with the Lord. 00:42:31.643 --> 00:42:33.533 Because the Lord will give you peace 00:42:33.533 --> 00:42:36.514 to left or right if you're in prayer about it. 00:42:36.514 --> 00:42:39.295 The fear of the Lord overcomes you 00:42:39.295 --> 00:42:42.063 and will convict you of the things 00:42:42.063 --> 00:42:43.571 spoken out of turn 00:42:43.571 --> 00:42:46.548 or if you made a frown when you're offended. 00:42:46.548 --> 00:42:48.978 The Lord will convict them right there. 00:42:48.978 --> 00:42:52.046 The sanctifying even in that suffering 00:42:52.046 --> 00:42:58.138 is good for the offended or the spouse. 00:42:58.138 --> 00:43:01.241 And also, in the care of the Lord, 00:43:01.241 --> 00:43:03.965 He will direct when the time is to move on. 00:43:03.965 --> 00:43:08.376 Because it won't be the Christian's desire to move on. 00:43:08.376 --> 00:43:12.930 But it will be the Lord's will. NOTE Paragraph 00:43:12.930 --> 00:43:19.198 Tim: Yeah, on that note. 00:43:19.198 --> 00:43:21.261 This is from the chapter, 00:43:21.261 --> 00:43:23.964 "The Emotion of Love in Christ." 00:43:23.964 --> 00:43:26.872 "How little do we know experimentally 00:43:26.872 --> 00:43:30.860 of the love of Christ in our souls 00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:34.851 dislodging slavish fear, 00:43:34.851 --> 00:43:37.682 a bondage spirit, unbelieving doubt, 00:43:37.682 --> 00:43:39.868 and so enlarging our hearts that we may 00:43:39.868 --> 00:43:43.380 run the way of the Lord's commandments. 00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:45.721 And the chiefest is to love. 00:43:45.721 --> 00:43:49.763 Bring your heart with its profoundest emptiness, 00:43:49.763 --> 00:43:52.811 its most startling discovery of sin, 00:43:52.811 --> 00:43:55.570 its lowest frame, its deepest sorrow, 00:43:55.570 --> 00:43:57.829 and sink it into the depths 00:43:57.829 --> 00:44:00.309 of the Savior's love. 00:44:00.309 --> 00:44:03.845 That infinite sea will flow over all, 00:44:03.845 --> 00:44:06.946 erase all, absorb all, 00:44:06.946 --> 00:44:10.065 and your soul shall swim and sport 00:44:10.065 --> 00:44:12.723 amid its gentle waves, 00:44:12.723 --> 00:44:15.612 exclaiming in your joy and transport, 00:44:15.612 --> 00:44:18.107 'O the depths...' 00:44:18.107 --> 00:44:20.549 The Lord direct your heart 00:44:20.549 --> 00:44:22.596 into the love of God. 00:44:22.596 --> 00:44:25.042 Just as it is hard, cold, fickle, 00:44:25.042 --> 00:44:28.201 sinful, sad, and sorrowful, 00:44:28.201 --> 00:44:30.529 Christ's love touching your hard heart 00:44:30.529 --> 00:44:32.290 will dissolve it. 00:44:32.290 --> 00:44:34.370 Touching your cold heart will warm it. 00:44:34.370 --> 00:44:36.432 Touching your sinful heart will purify it. 00:44:36.432 --> 00:44:39.681 Touching your sorrowful heart will soothe it. 00:44:39.681 --> 00:44:42.233 Touching your wandering heart 00:44:42.233 --> 00:44:44.871 will draw it back to Jesus. 00:44:44.871 --> 00:44:49.194 Only bring your heart to Christ's love. 00:44:49.194 --> 00:44:51.689 Believe in its existence, its reality, 00:44:51.689 --> 00:44:54.572 its fullness, its freeness. 00:44:54.572 --> 00:44:56.572 Believe that He loves you 00:44:56.572 --> 00:44:59.858 and just as love begets love, 00:44:59.858 --> 00:45:02.463 so the simple belief in the love of Jesus 00:45:02.463 --> 00:45:04.254 will inspire you with a reflected 00:45:04.254 --> 00:45:07.093 responsive affection 00:45:07.093 --> 00:45:09.038 and your soul like the chrysalis 00:45:09.038 --> 00:45:12.212 will burst from its captivity and gloom 00:45:12.212 --> 00:45:14.779 and soaring in life, liberty, and beauty 00:45:14.779 --> 00:45:17.605 will float in the sunbeams of God's full, 00:45:17.605 --> 00:45:19.758 free, and eternal love. 00:45:19.758 --> 00:45:21.950 And in a little while, will find itself 00:45:21.950 --> 00:45:26.636 in Heaven where all is love." 00:45:26.636 --> 00:45:29.600 And she should buy this book. 00:45:29.600 --> 00:45:32.358 Seriously. 00:45:32.358 --> 00:45:35.554 For people who are deeply suffering, 00:45:35.554 --> 00:45:39.611 like I say, Octavius Winslow. 00:45:39.611 --> 00:45:42.590 One of the greatest books - 00:45:42.590 --> 00:45:47.048 balm for the suffering soul. NOTE Paragraph 00:45:47.048 --> 00:45:49.157 Well, let's pray. 00:45:49.157 --> 00:45:52.281 Father, we pray that there might be help 00:45:52.281 --> 00:45:53.932 for some folks in the things 00:45:53.932 --> 00:45:57.266 that were said tonight. 00:45:57.266 --> 00:45:59.642 Lord, we pray that You'd use this 00:45:59.642 --> 00:46:02.794 in some people's lives for good, 00:46:02.794 --> 00:46:05.390 for Your glory, for healing, 00:46:05.390 --> 00:46:10.095 for salvation, for help. 00:46:10.095 --> 00:46:11.700 Lord, we pray that Your kindness, 00:46:11.700 --> 00:46:14.900 that this love that Octavius Winslow speaks about, 00:46:14.900 --> 00:46:17.991 oh, Lord, may we know more about it. 00:46:17.991 --> 00:46:19.356 Help us to know it 00:46:19.356 --> 00:46:22.480 and to swim in the depths of it. 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:26.385 Help this sister, who, Lord, 00:46:26.385 --> 00:46:28.628 You've put her in the furnace. 00:46:28.628 --> 00:46:30.679 We pray that she would know 00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:34.588 the cleansing, purifying grace of God 00:46:34.588 --> 00:46:38.167 in the midst of those flames. 00:46:38.167 --> 00:46:39.436 Help her to endure. 00:46:39.436 --> 00:46:40.938 Help her to persevere. 00:46:40.938 --> 00:46:44.436 Help her to love her husband 00:46:44.436 --> 00:46:47.001 with the love that only You can give.