This is from: "anonymous - just humiliated."
"Can I get a divorce?
I am still raw with pain
with every desire..."
Now hear this: "Can I get a divorce?
I am still raw with pain..."
but she has every desire and prays
to forgive her husband
of twenty-plus years
for his adulterous affair
with a young, beautiful woman,
who he spent over $8,000 on
with traveling to at least five states
including six cities,
jewelry from Tiffany's, jackets,
a new iWatch when it first was introduced
to the market.
It has been a little over two years ago
since this young woman,
angered by their breakup..."
Her husband and this young lady broke up,
so the young lady called the wife
and introduced herself....
"...to me as his girlfriend."
And revealed all this information,
which her husband didn't deny.
He confirmed it as true
when she confronted him.
"Reconciliation has been harder than anything,
testing my faith as I go to God regularly
to forgive him continually."
She says, "I face triggers."
What does she mean?
There are these triggers that set off
anger and bitterness.
What? New discoveries.
Things that her husband didn't fully disclose.
She's finding out as time goes on
new information, new discoveries.
Inconsistencies in the things
that he has told her that reveal lies.
"And the discovery that he referred to this girl
as his ex-girlfriend,
upgrading their foul, adulterous relationship
as one as common as a courtship
instead of referring to her as what she was,
a mistress.
I'm hurting badly
with feelings of not feeling good enough."
So she feels like a failure as a wife.
"Anger that I wrestle in the flesh
because I cherish my relationship with Jesus Christ.
My journey actually has been smoother
since I've discovered this two-plus years ago.
But we still argue.
He says he's repented, but I don't see how
because I still feel disrespected
in the way he views her.
Like how he mentioned her to someone
as his ex-girlfriend,
and how he tells me I'm crazy
for still wrestling with the problem.
And like how he says he lives a sinless life
now that he's repented.
Like when he uses profanity
in response to me badgering him
about the past adulterous affair
as if it's my fault.
His lies he's told in the aftermath
to cover up things she told me
aren't recognized as sin by him
because now that he's not committing adultery,
he claims he's sinless."
She says, "I'm born again,
and I'm always repenting,
always seeking the Lord to purge me
as He said He would.
'Every branch that abides in Him...'
I'm never so satisfied with where I am
that I call myself sinless.
Am I set free? Yes.
But now more than ever, I'm wrestling
with anger and unforgiveness
as they are triggered.
I have really great days.
I have good days, moderate days,
and really, really bad days.
I'm seeking the Lord
and pouring out to Him through all this."
Now she also sent a follow-up
where she said this:
"I'm so sorry
concerning the message I just sent.
Be it far from me to leave out my own fault too.
I've been wrestling with both anger
and horrible profanity.
I'm repenting constantly for my angry outbursts
about the affair
and the marital neglect I experienced.
And to be honest," she says,
"he has many times sat quietly
and listened to me.
He has not been a monster toward me
since about two months after the discovery
of his adulterous affair.
And I'm sorry I left those points out."
She felt convicted.
So her first question is
can I get a divorce?
Now you recognize, she follows it up
by saying "every desire in her prayer
is to forgive her husband."
So this is a woman that's torn.
This is a woman who's trying to heal,
but she says there's triggers.
Like she finds some new information
that he wasn't honest about.
Or he seems to downplay it -
say it's her sin, it's her fault.
Why does she keep carrying on with this?
What do you tell her?
She says, "he tells me I'm crazy
for still wrestling with the problem."
I would say to her you're not crazy.
I mean, clearly if you're a woman
and your husband has been unfaithful
and then in the aftermath of it,
new information keeps coming out,
lies get uncovered,
your husband basically acts like
now that he's repented it's over
and you ought to just get over it.
No, I would say that all those things
are exactly going to keep the wound
opening up afresh.
What do you tell her?
Let's start right there. Can I get a divorce?
What do you tell her?
I don't even think that she really wants one.
But she's asking the question.
(from the room)
I don't think that's something that you give
strong response to right away
because of the nature of it.
She doesn't seem like she wants a divorce.
The guy has been unfaithful.
She's not going to just get over it.
She seems to want to get over it.
You don't have a quick answer for something like that.
I can't think - even though I know
what Scripture says about divorce
and the grounds for divorce -
she doesn't seem that she really wants to.
What quick response can you give to that?
Tim: Well, she may want to know
that she biblically can
even though she doesn't want to
so that it's kind of a weapon in her arsenal
to leverage over the guy.
I'm just saying that could be.
But I mean, just from a purely biblical standpoint,
(incomplete thought)
Let me ask you this.
If she divorced her husband,
if she was in our church
and she divorced her husband,
should we say,
well, she had biblical grounds?
Would we say, well, we counseled her against it,
but she did actually have biblical grounds?
Would we say no? She can't?
And there would be consequences if she did?
Maybe some kind of disciplinary consequences.
Well, let me ask you this.
If a woman has a husband who's unfaithful,
he says he's repented.
He doesn't go on in his sin.
And she seems to really desire to forgive him,
is there a cutoff point?
Would you say that she has a right
25 years down the road to say
you know what?
My husband was unfaithful 25 years ago
and I want out.
I just got sick of this relationship
and I've got a biblical out
and I'm going to take it and use it now.
Is that like a get out of jail free card?
Seriously, the exception points
that are made there in Matthew 5 and 19,
if there's sexual immorality -
except in the case of sexual immorality.
Is there, whether we put a distinct
amount of time on it or not,
is there a time?
When Jesus says except for sexual immorality,
does He mean that well, if you have a spouse
who's been sexually immoral,
and once they've done that,
you basically have a right to divorce them at anytime?
Or is there a timeline?
Would we say there is a time
that if enough time goes by,
that it would be inappropriate?
What say you?
Scripture.
What Scripture has to do with what's right?
What's loving? What's appropiate?
What's God-like? What's Christ-like?
(from the room)
Would 1 Corinthians 7:3-14
be applicable to this situation?
(unintelligible)
Tim: Which verse specifically
are you thinking is applicable?
(from the room)
It's 1 Corinthians 7:13.
"If any woman has a husband
who is an unbeliever
and consents to live with her,
she should not divorce him.
For the unbelieving husband
is made holy because of his wife."
Tim: But that situation doesn't necessarily
bring in the sexual immorality.
Whereas the Matthew texts
do bring in that specific reality.
Let me ask you this.
Do you think that it's possible
to forgive the husband and still divorce him?
I hear no. I hear yes.
Could you imagine a situation
where forgiving him - which is good,
appropriate,
letting go of the bitterness that you feel,
where it still would be necessary to divorce him?
(unintelligible)
I mean, what if your husband
actually was involved in pedophilia or something
and you've got kids.
Is it possible to forgive him
and yet recognize I've got to get out of this
perhaps for my own safety
or for the safety of the children?
Perhaps that could be.
That doesn't seem like this situation.
And clearly it's a different situation
when you have a spouse who's continuing
in their sexual immorality.
But when you have somebody that's committed it
and then they're repentant...
Now, I recognize, we could wrestle with
well, is he sincere? Is he not sincere?
But do you think that a Christian
has an obligation to remain in the marriage
if the spouse repents?
Is it an obligation?
Open your Bibles to Matthew 19.
You're already there.
Look at 19:1,
"Now when Jesus had finished these sayings
He went away from Galilee
and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan.
Large crowds followed Him
and He healed them there.
And Pharisees came up to Him and tested Him
by asking 'is it lawful to divorce
one's wife for any cause?'
He answered, 'have you not read
that He Who created them from the beginning
made them male and female?'
And said, 'therefore a man shall
leave his father and his mother
and hold fast to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh.
So they're no longer two, but one flesh.
What therefore God has joined together,
let not man separate.'
They said to Him, 'Why then did Moses
command one to give a certificate of divorce
and to send her away?'
He said to them, 'Because of your hardness of heart
Moses allowed you to divorce your wives.
But from the beginning, it was not so.
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife
except for sexual immorality
and marries another, commits adultery.'"
So there is an exception there.
So okay, with the exception -
now this is speaking of a man.
It was a very man-dominated society then.
But nevertheless, a woman
divorces a husband because of sexual immorality.
It seems like there's an exception there.
There's an exception,
but there certainly isn't a mandate.
It's not commanded.
Do we not feel that a Christian
who forgives sin against themselves -
that's very Christ-like.
For her to forgive her husband -
very Christ-like.
Would we not agree with that?
He's claiming to have repented.
She says for the last two years -
that's 24 months - she says for 22 months,
things have actually gone fairly well.
Now there's these triggers that keep opening it up,
but once he came clean, she says,
that things were pretty good.
What do you tell her?
She's got these triggers.
She's got these difficulties.
What could you tell her that would really help her?
(from the room)
Do you think that telling her that love
does not keep a record of wrongdoing,
if she truly has forgiven him...
for example, like you said, if we tell her
that biblically she can divorce,
is there a time limit?
Well, let's say 25 years from now
she wants to divorce.
Tim: Here's the thing.
You can say that,
but here's the problem.
If you were married and your husband
was the one who was unfaithful,
and then as you're moving forward,
you keep finding inconsistencies with his stories,
and instead of calling the woman a "mistress,"
he's referring to her as an ex-girlfriend.
And his lies keep coming back
so that the wound keeps getting re-opened.
You wouldn't be impervious to that.
Your trust is destroyed.
And the thing is inconsistencies in his stories
keep coming up.
And he keeps referring to the woman
in terms (incomplete thought).
What's that?
(from the room)
What keeps bringing that issue up though?
Tim: Well, it's going to come up.
I mean, it sounds like he's speaking
to other people about it
and it gets back to her ears
that he's referring to her in terms
that seem to lessen the severity of his sin.
And then, can you imagine
if you're wanting to talk,
especially when there's inconsistencies
and you've got questions,
and when you ask about them
and you get upset,
he's telling you that you're the one who's wrong.
You're just holding on to it.
You're crazy.
You're still wrestling with these things.
Get over it.
Listen, those things would be
incredibly hurtful and wound opening events.
(from the room)
It kind of reminds me of David in Psalm 55,
some of the things he said there,
that my companion stretched out his hand;
he violated his covenant.
And here this lady's marriage has been violated.
And David felt like flying away
from the situation,
but ultimately cast his burden on the Lord.
And I guess if she's determined
to love her husband,
all those reminders are a reminder
ultimately to go back to Christ,
to cast her burden on Him,
and just plead for mercy
and help from the Lord.
And He's going to give that.
And if it's getting better
in these last two years,
I would assume in five years,
it's even going to be more bearable,
better hopefully.
Hopefully God would save her husband.
If she's going to stay with him,
what other option does she have
but to rely on the Lord?
Tim: Yeah, one of the things I wrote down
is to encourage her to not forget
the power of prayer
and laying hold on the Lord
and asking for supernatural grace.
But here's the thing,
there are women who navigate
these kinds of situations
and they navigate it to the honor and glory of the Lord.
But I think one of the things
that you need to navigate it
is you have to think right.
And you have to think truth.
And one of the things
is to surround yourself with people
who are going to bring you back to the truth
all the time.
And I think that's being in a good church,
surrounding yourself with people
that truly help you.
There are people who don't help.
There are people who - even professing Christians
and perhaps genuine Christians
who give wrong advice, bad advice,
and it's not helpful.
It's not healing.
You need to surround yourself with people
who really are going to guide you into truth
that is helpful,
that will help you get across these hurdles.
And they don't always need to be living people.
One of the reasons I grabbed
"The Sympathy of Christ," by Octavius Winslow
off my shelf is the sympathy of Christ.
The reality is we have a sympathetic High Priest.
This is one of the greatest books
that I have on my shelf for suffering people.
Because what it does is it takes you close to Christ.
And it shows you His suffering and His sympathy
for the suffering.
Because the truth is that Jesus
has been in a place where He suffered the rejection,
He suffered the hurt,
He's been there.
And I think that's critical,
but think right. Think right.
What we need to be called back to
especially when we're suffering -
(incomplete thought)
I especially think about the Apostle Paul
or the Apostle Peter.
When they're dealing with people
who are suffering, what did they do?
They didn't say just get over it. You're crazy.
They brought truth to appeal to the mind.
That's what they did.
They came in and they said look,
we're not going to say
your suffering isn't suffering.
But, your suffering - it feels long,
it feels hard - it's momentary.
Fifty years from now,
this sister will be with the Lord.
She'll be in Paradise.
Every tear will be wiped away.
So we need to keep it in perspective.
Momentary, light affliction is all
that our suffering in this life is called.
And it's going to give way,
give place to an eternal weight of glory.
But you think - you think.
What truths does this woman [need?]
Obviously, the truths of the cross.
The truths of God's forgiveness of her.
That's got to be the foundation.
I'm forgiven.
After what I've done, I'm forgiven.
After what I've done to Him, I'm forgiven.
Another thing that is essential
is coming back to the truth,
God has promised
to never leave us or forsake us.
Because you know what the temptation
in trial is.
The devil's right there to say,
"Look, God's vacated.
You're on your own.
He's not helping you. He's silent.
You're praying to Him?
This isn't going away.
He's not hearing you."
And I know Charles Leiter has said
that the Gardener is never so close
as when He's pruning.
And I've come across it somewhere else,
maybe Matthew Henry,
that the Refiner is never so close to the gold...
You could speak to that.
I mean, you put the silver and gold
in the kiln.
You're not far away
when the gold's cooking in the kiln,
and you're getting the impurities out.
And that's the reality.
What we have to be brought back to is this,
that God is specifically ordering my suffering.
We have to be confident in that.
Otherwise, we have no foundation to stand on.
We have to be able to say
all things are indeed working together for my good.
I have to believe in a God
that is entirely in control
of every nuance of my life,
and that He's guiding.
And that He is the God Who says
He does not willingly afflict the sons of men.
What does that mean? It's the idea
that He doesn't from the heart.
He doesn't because He's cruel.
Now look, He's a God Who's just.
But there's sensitivity with God.
I mean, you definitely get the idea in Scripture,
God does not need to have His arm twisted
to show mercy.
It seems more difficult for Him to mete out justice.
But entirely consistent with His character,
He must.
But just the idea that He's not willing
to afflict the sons of men.
It's this idea that God is going to bring
the suffering that's for our good.
I'd tell her you don't want to use your mouth like that
with your husband.
You don't want any profanity to come out.
That's wrong.
No matter what he's done, that's wrong.
And she talks about the repenting that she does,
but it really needs to be the kind of repenting
where she eliminates that from her life totally.
She needs that.
There needs to be a real holiness
being worked out there
in the fear of God.
There needs to be a cleansing.
The tongue needs to be set in order.
And she needs the grace.
Just because her husband may be
reopening the wound and triggers may come,
that is no excuse for her to do that.
I mean, we understand the circumstances
and that it's really difficult.
We're not saying it isn't difficult.
It is.
She's in an incredibly difficult situation.
I mean, do you ladies have anything
that you would add that you would tell her?
(from the room)
I was just going to ask
on a practical level.
Is there a time when godly counsel
is to go seek help from elders,
from people in your church,
to counsel the two of them together
if he saying that he has repented
and has turned from that,
but there are signs that maybe that is not true.
Is there a time when it's not just dealt
with the two of them, they need to go out?
Like within their body?
Tim: Yes, I mean, definitely counseling.
Definitely whether that's pastoral counseling
with the pastors
or whether there's some kind of counseling
with a counselor,
if both of them can be involved,
that's definitely a good place.
My assumption in this
is that you have a husband
that's professing to have repented
and he feels like now he's actually
even reached some state of perfection or something.
The feeling I get is he probably
isn't a genuine Christian.
Now, that still doesn't mean
that there couldn't be some good things
achieved if you can get them both into counseling.
But that would be good if he's willing to do that.
But sometimes I guess we just
have to recognize
that a guy like this might not be willing.
Without knowing the real details there,
he might not be willing,
or even if he was willing for a time to go,
if he's not genuinely converted,
difficult to know how much fruit there may be.
Sometimes in these situations
if you've got one that's converted
and the other one it's pretty obvious they're not,
you really have to focus in on the one that's saved
to do the right thing.
Because if the lost member,
even if they're going to counseling,
they just lack the equipment
to handle this thing in a godly fashion.
And perhaps they even need to be
dealt with about their false profession.
And the thing is if the Lord's in it,
then yeah, you'll get wonderful fruit,
because if God saves him,
then the thing will really heal.
But if the Lord isn't in it,
dealing with him like that is probably
going to chase him away from the counseling.
And he will all the more quickly
not want to be involved.
Somebody had a hand up just now.
(from the room)
I was just thinking that she might also
still be dwelling on it because
he did not confess - he got caught.
So that could be something
that she's still thinking about.
Tim: Yeah, she's going to play it over and over in her mind.
And I'll guarantee, we view things
as elders in the church like that.
We take very much into consideration
when sin is exposed -
did they get caught?
Or did they come and confess?
So often when people get caught,
then they say, "Oh, I repent."
Well, now it's very questionable.
Now you got caught.
You were forced to now play the part.
So yes, I think any woman,
that would be a big issue.
That yeah, he didn't come and confess this to me.
He got caught.
And then the thing that it seems like
she's bringing out -
because we've seen this.
We see this with sin.
A person gets caught.
Now they confess, but later
it becomes discovered
that they didn't confess everything.
And now you confront them with the more.
Well, now they confess it.
And now they apparently repent of that.
But you can understand if you're a wife,
and it seems like he's repented,
but new things keep coming up
that it's very convenient he never mentioned.
The thing you're looking for when somebody repents
is you just lay it all out on the table
so that there's nothing hidden,
nothing more that's going to come out.
It's just there it all is.
I'm not hiding anything.
Because yes, as soon as you've got the idea,
he got caught and he's only
admitting what he got caught for
and we keep finding out
there's more stuff that's hidden.
That's one of the greatest indications
that there is no genuine aspect
to the repentance.
It's all a put on.
(from the room)
I also have a thought,
in the first letter she talked a lot about
his response and that at times
still referring to her as ex-girlfriend
and/or not disclosing everything,
but in the next letter, she was like,
it hasn't all been bad.
There have been times where I have had
him listen to my concerns.
So it just made me think of when
in 1 Peter it's talking about suffering
and her desire to actually walk
pleasing to the Lord in that manner.
And in knowing her weaknesses,
knowing that there's triggers,
knowing that the devil's going to be right there
to tempt her in those weaknesses,
just what it says in 1 Peter 5:6,
"Humble yourselves therefore
under the mighty hand of God
so that at the proper time
He may exalt you,
casting all your anxieties on Him
because He cares for you."
And then this part where it says,
"be sober-minded,
be watchful.
Your adversary, the devil, prowls around
like a roaring lion
seeking someone to devour.
Resist him, firm in your faith,
knowing that the same kinds of sufferings
are being experienced
by your brotherhood throughout the world
and after you have suffered a little while,
the God of all grace Who has called you
to His eternal glory in Christ
will Himself restore, confirm,
strengthen, and establish you.
To Him be the dominion forever and ever, amen."
So it seems like she wants to fight against it
and just trusting in those things
and God's enabled her to fight against it
and to humble herself before Him
and to cast her anxieties on Him
in this season.
It seems like she recognizes
that things are getting a little bit better.
She's enduring and trusting more.
Tim: I'll tell you two other aspects of this
that if she's rightly communicating it
that are pretty good indicators
that his repentance is
not a godly repentance.
He may have stepped away from this
and he wants to preserve his marriage,
but a good indication it's not godly repentance -
two aspects that jump out at me
is one, if a man sins against his wife that way,
and he knows that calling that girl
an ex-girlfriend just does not
sit well with her,
he should never do it again.
Another thing that jumps out
is that he would ever fault her
for not getting over it.
After what he's done,
his approach should be one of shame,
not fault-finding with her.
So you can understand
that those things would definitely
reopen the wounds and be hurtful.
But the thing is, you have to trust,
yes, the wound keeps getting reopened,
but the Lord's only going to let that wound
be reopened as many times as is necessary.
Never so often that it's cruel.
Never so often as that it's harmful.
He's going to let it happen
as many times as it's useful.
And clearly, she's indicating
that there are some things that do need
to be dredged up out of her own life.
But it's very difficult.
(from the room)
If he continued to refer to the woman
as an ex-girlfriend
and continued in that disrespect to her
as his wife,
would we call her to continue
to endure the struggle?
Or do you think at that point,
like it's an intentional harm towards her
by her husband?
Tim: Well, I don't think it's grounds
to try to get out of the marriage.
I think she needs to fight for this marriage.
And like I say, I think all the more she's able
even with him reopening wounds,
all the more she's able to forgive him,
is all the more Christlike she comes across.
And you know, the truth is
that 1 Peter 3 reality of seeking to win him
by her conduct.
And I guarantee,
her throwing a blast of profanity at him
does not help.
It doesn't help anything.
It doesn't help her.
It doesn't help heal it.
It doesn't help him.
In no way does it help anything.
But if she navigates this thing
with the help of God,
with the grace of God -
and that's like, after what James said,
I have it here -
don't underestimate the power of prayer.
Don't underestimate the thing that seems
so impossible to let go of or to forgive
or to get over,
the Lord has helped His people
to get over and past every one of those kinds of situations.
And there is grace sufficient.
And people who have experienced it
can say at times, there is a supernatural help from God
to forgive or to be able to cover over
or to love.
I was just recently talking about
the Wurmbrand book that was selling for a dollar,
"Tortured for Christ."
You know, when they were in
those Romanian prisons,
the more their captors beat them,
the more love they felt for the jailers.
It's the guy whipping them,
with every stroke of the whip,
they're feeling greater love
for the guy whipping them.
How is that?
It's just plain supernatural.
But God's in the business of helping His people,
so you cast your cares on Him.
There's a place to come:
Lord, please, he keeps reopening the wound.
You know that he is.
You know this hurts, Lord.
You don't expect it not to hurt.
I need help. Lord, I need help.
In my own strength, I cannot do this.
You just cast yourself on Him.
And the thing is He helps His people.
He really does.
There's help for her.
And I think she's experiencing some of that help.
But I think there's areas
where there's still defilement
in her own life that needs to be cleansed.
She needs to control her tongue.
And that doesn't seem like it's in place,
not if she's letting loose
with a flurry of profanity.
Well, anything else?
(from the room)
I would say to her
to just exhaust every avenue
of overcoming it with love
and persistence in prayer with the Lord.
Because the Lord will give you peace
to left or right if you're in prayer about it.
The fear of the Lord overcomes you
and will convict you of the things
spoken out of turn
or if you made a frown when you're offended.
The Lord will convict them right there.
The sanctifying even in that suffering
is good for the offended or the spouse.
And also, in the care of the Lord,
He will direct when the time is to move on.
Because it won't be the Christian's desire to move on.
But it will be the Lord's will.
Tim: Yeah, on that note.
This is from the chapter,
"The Emotion of Love in Christ."
"How little do we know experimentally
of the love of Christ in our souls
dislodging slavish fear,
a bondage spirit, unbelieving doubt,
and so enlarging our hearts that we may
run the way of the Lord's commandments.
And the chiefest is to love.
Bring your heart with its profoundest emptiness,
its most startling discovery of sin,
its lowest frame, its deepest sorrow,
and sink it into the depths
of the Savior's love.
That infinite sea will flow over all,
erase all, absorb all,
and your soul shall swim and sport
amid its gentle waves,
exclaiming in your joy and transport,
'O the depths...'
The Lord direct your heart
into the love of God.
Just as it is hard, cold, fickle,
sinful, sad, and sorrowful,
Christ's love touching your hard heart
will dissolve it.
Touching your cold heart will warm it.
Touching your sinful heart will purify it.
Touching your sorrowful heart will soothe it.
Touching your wandering heart
will draw it back to Jesus.
Only bring your heart to Christ's love.
Believe in its existence, its reality,
its fullness, its freeness.
Believe that He loves you
and just as love begets love,
so the simple belief in the love of Jesus
will inspire you with a reflected
responsive affection
and your soul like the chrysalis
will burst from its captivity and gloom
and soaring in life, liberty, and beauty
will float in the sunbeams of God's full,
free, and eternal love.
And in a little while, will find itself
in Heaven where all is love."
And she should buy this book.
Seriously.
For people who are deeply suffering,
like I say, Octavius Winslow.
One of the greatest books -
balm for the suffering soul.
Well, let's pray.
Father, we pray that there might be help
for some folks in the things
that were said tonight.
Lord, we pray that You'd use this
in some people's lives for good,
for Your glory, for healing,
for salvation, for help.
Lord, we pray that Your kindness,
that this love that Octavius Winslow speaks about,
oh, Lord, may we know more about it.
Help us to know it
and to swim in the depths of it.
Help this sister, who, Lord,
You've put her in the furnace.
We pray that she would know
the cleansing, purifying grace of God
in the midst of those flames.
Help her to endure.
Help her to persevere.
Help her to love her husband
with the love that only You can give.