WEBVTT

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[Applause]

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[Laughter]

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[Rachel Maddow]
Wow thank you all so much for coming

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[Applause]

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Wow

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Did he say 4,000 people are here?

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[Laughs] This is crazy

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[from audience] We love you Rachel
[RM ]I love you too, thank you.

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Alright I'm sorry about 
the whole crutches thing

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I know it's melodramatic, right?

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It's a very boring story 
or I would tell it

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Thank you all so much for being here.

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This is an overwhelming number of humans

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I am just incredibly honored
that you're all here

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I do a show on TV and I know that
there are people watching

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but I can't see them
and so this is coming face to face

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with something that I really try
never to think about,

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which is that a lot of people
know what I do

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including the screw-ups every day.

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So as a way to try to minimize the emotion

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I am actually going to change glasses, 
so that with these glasses on

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I will not be able to see any of you
which will make this easier for me.

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All right,okay, so I did not set out
to write a book

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about the oil and gas industry

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And I thought: for sure, if I did,
no one would want to read it.

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and then this weird thing happened,

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right around the time the book 
was ready to come out,

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which is that the president
started getting impeached

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and [cheers and applause] 
I didn't do it but I'll take the applause

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and the the thing 
that really surprised me

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is that this book is coming out
and it's kind of about the thing

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for which the president 
is being impeached .

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And so I had planned -- when 
I was going to go around

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and talk about the book
and do events like this --

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that I would read like the funny section
of the book.

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There's a section I really like
that I think is kind of funny,

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that's about walruses

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and I was like I go to Chicago,
It's going to be this big room

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that's gonna slay, 
they're gonna love the walruses thing

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because the president 
is now being impeached, though,

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for something that has to do
with the thesis of this book

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I kind of feel like I should read
from that part of the book:

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just - in part because I'm really looking
forward to this conversation with Allison

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and some of your guys' questions
and I feel like maybe

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this would be kind of a good predicate
because I have a feeling

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there might be some appetite to talk
about that.

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And from the applause a second ago,
when I said the word impeachment

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I think I'm right; so all right
so I'll read a little bit and then

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I'll just say a little thing
and then Allison will come out.

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So here we go: the reason I specifically
kind of picked out this part tonight

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is because of those guys 
who got arrested a couple days ago,

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Lev and Igor, they -- one of the things
that was interesting about that --

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so they got arrested and charged with
trying to

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funnel illegal campaign donations,

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including illegal foreign-origin
Russian campaign donations

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to Republican politicians,both to start
a weed business, but also to try to get

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the US ambassador to Ukraine removed,

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as part of a scheme they were working on

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with the President's lawyer
Rudy Giuliani.

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And we know from Mr. Giuliani's
own account

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that the reason they wanted
that ambassador out in Ukraine

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was because she was in the way

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of their scheme to get Ukraine to provide the president

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with dirt he could use against the

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Democrats in the 2020 election which is

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what he's now being impeached for so it

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all kind of ties but I thought it was it

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was interesting and like weird given the

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book that when those guys got arrested

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remember they got arrested at Dulles

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Airport and we think they moved up the

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indictment so that they could hurry up

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the arrests because they had one-way

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tickets out of the country and so they

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went and they swooped in and they got

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them at Dulles and they brought them to

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the nearest federal courthouse the

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relevant federal courthouse if you're

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ever arrested at Dulles Airport trying

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to flee the country as news you can use

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is the Eastern District of Virginia and

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so they've got brought in for their

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initial court hearing at the Eastern

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District of Virginia and the weirdest

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thing happened

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they got Paul manna Ford's lawyers what

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were they doing there what's your

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connection to all this did you guys know

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each other before so that was weird

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mr. Giuliani also says that one of the

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people who he's been working on this

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scheme with the one that the president

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is going to get impeached for the person

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who was giving him strategic advice on

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what the president might be able to

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solicit from Ukraine to help him in his

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next election one of the people he has

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been consulting with on this is Paul

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Manafort who is the president's campaign

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chairman but currently is a federal

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inmate and apparently mr. Giuliani has

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been working with him so there's the

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guys who are in jail now who have just

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been arrested and indicted there's the

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other guy who's serving a federal prison

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sentence those are those are the first

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three guys Giuliani is working with on

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this scheme and then there's another guy

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because when they got arrested at Dulles

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they had these one-way tickets and they

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were to Frankfurt but they didn't say

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that they were planning on staying in

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Frankfurt they were going to transit

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through there and mr. Giuliani again

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always helpful told a reporter for the

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Atlantic that where they were going was

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Vienna Austria and he was also on his

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way to Vienna Austria but they weren't

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going together it was just coincidence

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and we now know that the reason they

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were going to Vienna Austria is because

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they were at least either Lev or Igor I

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can't tell them apart yet by next week I

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will have it one of them was working for

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a guy whose name is Dmitri firtash who's

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in the book and what has emerged

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actually what he merged last night which

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is why I'm going to read this today is

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Reuters how to report that Dmitri

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firtash who is not in prison but is

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under arrest and out on bail and

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fighting extradition to the United

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States where US prosecutors say that

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he's an upper echelon associate of

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Russian organized crime and he's wanted

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on a multibillion-dollar fraud scheme

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Dmitri firtash is the one who has

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apparently according to Reuters been

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financing Lev and Igor in their latest

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exploits it may it also is starting to

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appear like maybe Dmitri firtash is the

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one who was paying Rudi

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for this work through love and Igor and

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like I said us prosecutors believe he's

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an upper echelon associate of Russian

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organized crime so I feel like it's all

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coming together and the president is

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gonna get impeached for this stuff but

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all of the people who are apparently

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were involved in in all of the people

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who were apparently involved in hooking

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them up with this are either in jail in

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prison or fighting extradition plus Rudy

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and so I feel like I have to talk about

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this stuff now quick because well once

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they're all in jail it's gonna be harder

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to get more of the story out so anyway

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that's the back that's the background

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the immediate news background which I

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think makes this relevant all right

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the biggest threat Putin had to keep it

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BAE was the prospect of strong rich

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stable western-oriented democracies in

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Russia's near abroad that sort of thing

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could not only challenge or constrain

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Russia's regional power it could

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conceivably the horror inspire the

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Russian people themselves leading them

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to demand a democratic say in their own

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government as well the solution was

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simple use Russian natural gas and oil

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not only to make money for the Russian

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state but also to keep neighboring

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countries corrupt and dependent it

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solved so many problems it reduced

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expectations for democratic governance

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and the rule of law in those countries

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it created a corruptly empowered

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political class invested in preserving

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the Russia dependent system that

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enriched both its practitioners and

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oftentimes also their families it also

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created comfortable space for organized

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crime to flourish the Russian government

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under Vladimir Putin's control has

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steadily become more integrated with all

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kinds of transnational organized crime

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in the former Soviet sphere and not just

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because Putin has tended to attract the

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kinds of broken nose Tufts who would

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otherwise be called henchmen if Putin

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hadn't made them so rich

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the beauty of putin's ever deepening

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kinship with the mob was that it gave

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him a whole other

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of levers with which to settle problems

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and to make problematic people go away

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whenever it might be unseemly to wield

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the overt powers of the state and so

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Putin's team in the Kremlin was

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delighted to utilize a man like Dimitri

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firtash Dimitri for attaches special

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skills could be used to shape Ukraine

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more to the Kremlin's liking to turn it

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from its increasingly worrying

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flirtation with the West with the work

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with the European Union with Oh God

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maybe even NATO so the Kremlin cut

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firtash a sweetheart deal in Ukraine

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virata's new company was given the

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exclusive right to buy gas from Russia

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to sell to Ukraine at a very large

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profit about eight hundred million

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dollars in clear profit in the year 2007

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alone now Ukraine could just as easily

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have bought the gas with no middleman

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and no markup but Putin wanted both the

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middleman and the markup it cost Gazprom

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the Russian natural gas company a pretty

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penny basically straight out of Russian

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government coffers but it was worth it

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firtash as well as some of Putin's other

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Ukrainian oligarchs would have plenty of

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cash to spread around to shape Ukraine

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in ways that Putin would appreciate some

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of that cash did go back to Moscow as

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tribute but even more of it went to prop

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up something called the Party of Regions

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which meant a whole bunch of that money

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passed through or ended up in the

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offshore bank accounts of the mercenary

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American political operative named Paul

00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:31.200
Manafort Paul Manafort helped the Moscow

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friendly party of regions when a solid

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plurality in the 2006 parliamentary

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elections in Ukraine and then he spent

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the next few years dinging Ukraine's

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strongest opposition leaders including

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those from the orange party Prime

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Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was a prime

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target

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Timoshenko was a particular threat to

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Moscow's influence in Ukraine she had

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made herself the front-runner in the

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2010 presidential election by seizing on

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that sweetheart gas deal that Dmitri

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firtash got from the Kremlin she

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promised to end that deal she made a

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good case why on earth should

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firtash his company should anybody's

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company be allowed to siphon off 800

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million dollars in a single year by

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doing nothing by just playing this

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middleman role that nobody needed nobody

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asked for

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well manna fort and his team went right

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at prime minister Tymoshenko with full

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force

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they helped drive down her approval

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ratings to 20% six months before that

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2010 presidential election even when she

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renegotiated the russia-ukraine natural

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gas deal in 2009 she actually got rid of

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that deal she cut firtash out she got

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rid of that middleman even her

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renegotiation of that deal wasn't enough

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to sway a majority of voters to her mana

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forts guy Yanukovych squeezed by her and

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into the presidency in 2010 mana fort

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received much credit for the ANA Kovich

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victory and he got a rich new contract

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as the new Ukrainian president's

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off-site political adviser and he got

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right to work one of Yanukovych his

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first acts as Ukraine's new president

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was to SiC a rabid state prosecutor on

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Yulia Tymoshenko lock her up

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Yanukovych's prosecutor charged

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Timoshenko with the crime of abusing her

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official powers by illegally arranging

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the new firtash free gas deal between

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Russia and Ukraine the accused her of

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corruption for having gotten rid of that

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corrupt deal Timoshenko had a lot of

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sympathy in the United States and Europe

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so mana fork got right to work on a

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multi-part expensive public relations

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campaign to destroy her reputation in

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Ukraine and also in the United States

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but they brought those corruption

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charges against her they prosecuted her

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they convicted her and they locked her

00:13:55.540 --> 00:13:59.050
up and with Timoshenko stashed in prison

00:13:59.050 --> 00:14:01.839
trashed by the American PR firms and

00:14:01.839 --> 00:14:03.820
American law firms that mana fort paid

00:14:03.820 --> 00:14:06.250
for Russia's men in Ukraine

00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:09.790
mob-connected Dmitry firtash got back

00:14:09.790 --> 00:14:11.949
into the gas deal which was better than

00:14:11.949 --> 00:14:13.899
ever his company's operating profit for

00:14:13.899 --> 00:14:16.480
the years 2012 and 2013 added up to

00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.200
nearly four billion dollars

00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:21.820
with that kind of money available for

00:14:21.820 --> 00:14:23.890
corrupting any actual governance in the

00:14:23.890 --> 00:14:25.080
interests of the people of Ukraine

00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.940
Putin's natural gas supply there hovered

00:14:27.940 --> 00:14:29.170
over the heads of the Ukrainian people

00:14:29.170 --> 00:14:32.800
like a sword Putin could tell things

00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:34.900
were going well when Yanukovych were an

00:14:34.900 --> 00:14:36.940
egg Don his campaign promised to move

00:14:36.940 --> 00:14:38.860
Ukraine toward greater cooperation with

00:14:38.860 --> 00:14:41.890
possibly even membership in the European

00:14:41.890 --> 00:14:42.430
Union

00:14:42.430 --> 00:14:44.860
Putin knew that wouldn't that couldn't

00:14:44.860 --> 00:14:47.530
ever happen the problem was the

00:14:47.530 --> 00:14:49.180
Ukrainian people appeared to really like

00:14:49.180 --> 00:14:52.000
the idea even when Putin promised 15

00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.980
billion dollars worth of new aid to

00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:56.050
Ukraine the will of the Ukrainian people

00:14:56.050 --> 00:14:59.080
was clear they wanted the EU no matter

00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:02.320
Putin's largesse and the orange side

00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:04.630
revolted again what started on November

00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:07.450
21st 2013 as a small demonstration in

00:15:07.450 --> 00:15:09.370
the main square in Kiev and the Madonn

00:15:09.370 --> 00:15:12.150
grew in just a few days to another

00:15:12.150 --> 00:15:15.400
100,000 person protests the

00:15:15.400 --> 00:15:17.230
demonstrators took over the square and

00:15:17.230 --> 00:15:19.780
refused to leave a violent crackdown by

00:15:19.780 --> 00:15:21.190
police in the last days of November

00:15:21.190 --> 00:15:24.190
didn't quell the enthusiasm in the face

00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:26.680
of Yanukovych's armed security forces

00:15:26.680 --> 00:15:29.530
determined protesters strapped on pots

00:15:29.530 --> 00:15:32.830
and pans as makeshift armored and they

00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:34.810
took to the streets and the crowds kept

00:15:34.810 --> 00:15:37.900
on coming and growing this lasted

00:15:37.900 --> 00:15:40.600
through November through December putin

00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:42.580
thought the cold Kiev January would

00:15:42.580 --> 00:15:44.470
break the crowd if the security forces

00:15:44.470 --> 00:15:48.190
could not he was wrong in February as

00:15:48.190 --> 00:15:50.830
the Sochi Olympics kicked off they were

00:15:50.830 --> 00:15:53.170
still there by the tens of thousands

00:15:53.170 --> 00:15:55.900
wearing their makeshift 21st century

00:15:55.900 --> 00:15:59.020
defensive kitchen where huddled for

00:15:59.020 --> 00:16:01.690
warmth around trash can fires the

00:16:01.690 --> 00:16:03.340
protest had morphed from a demonstration

00:16:03.340 --> 00:16:05.140
about the EU question into a

00:16:05.140 --> 00:16:07.540
demonstration about democracy itself the

00:16:07.540 --> 00:16:10.330
will of the governed Ukrainians were

00:16:10.330 --> 00:16:13.530
calling it the revolution of dignity the

00:16:13.530 --> 00:16:15.460
demonstrators in Kiev were gaining

00:16:15.460 --> 00:16:18.880
courage in numbers and on February 18

00:16:18.880 --> 00:16:22.290
2014 they armed themselves with

00:16:22.290 --> 00:16:25.960
slingshots and braved a gauntlet of

00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:28.840
Yanukovych's armed security forces and

00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.110
they marched on the Ukrainian Parliament

00:16:31.110 --> 00:16:34.040
when Yanukovych is security forces

00:16:34.040 --> 00:16:35.540
started killing protesters that

00:16:35.540 --> 00:16:37.820
afternoon the crowds retreated to their

00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:39.889
barricades in the Madonn and remained

00:16:39.889 --> 00:16:41.259
there through a terrifying night

00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:45.079
protected by a ring of fire Yanukovych's

00:16:45.079 --> 00:16:47.149
security forces broke out machine guns

00:16:47.149 --> 00:16:50.389
they scrambled rooftop snipers the next

00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:53.149
day and the civilian casualty list just

00:16:53.149 --> 00:16:54.910
kept growing and growing

00:16:54.910 --> 00:16:57.620
one defiant protesters standing behind a

00:16:57.620 --> 00:16:59.480
makeshift shield wearing a plastic

00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.660
helmet and a surgical mask yelled we are

00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:05.780
not afraid to die for freedom freedom is

00:17:05.780 --> 00:17:09.260
for us freedom is ours we will win and

00:17:09.260 --> 00:17:11.089
Ukraine will be part of Europe and

00:17:11.089 --> 00:17:12.980
Ukraine will be part of the free world

00:17:12.980 --> 00:17:15.349
and we'll never be slaves we will be

00:17:15.349 --> 00:17:16.689
free

00:17:16.689 --> 00:17:18.740
Putin watched it all with a growing

00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:21.349
sense of dread and a growing sense of

00:17:21.349 --> 00:17:23.599
anger here at his doorstep was the

00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.480
Western conspiracy America was the cause

00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.140
of all of this mess he was sure the last

00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.200
little bit I'm gonna read on the eve of

00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.919
the final day of the Sochi Olympics

00:17:35.919 --> 00:17:38.960
Yanukovych not lost his nerve he called

00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:41.210
off his security forces he turned tail

00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:43.940
and ran he gave over Kiev and the

00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:45.140
federal government to the orange

00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:47.330
revolutionaries the Ukrainian Parliament

00:17:47.330 --> 00:17:50.360
met in an emergency session legislators

00:17:50.360 --> 00:17:52.460
voted Yanukovych out of office in

00:17:52.460 --> 00:17:55.130
absentia they ordered the immediate

00:17:55.130 --> 00:17:58.130
release of Yulia Tymoshenko and she was

00:17:58.130 --> 00:18:01.580
freed and they voted to refer Yanukovych

00:18:01.580 --> 00:18:03.440
to the International Criminal Court to

00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.460
answer for crimes against humanity

00:18:06.460 --> 00:18:08.809
Yanukovych resurfaced a few days later

00:18:08.809 --> 00:18:12.380
in a Party of Regions stronghold in the

00:18:12.380 --> 00:18:13.850
Russia friendly eastern part of the

00:18:13.850 --> 00:18:16.190
country but he ran into protests even

00:18:16.190 --> 00:18:18.470
there thousands of his countrymen faced

00:18:18.470 --> 00:18:20.299
him down right there on his home streets

00:18:20.299 --> 00:18:22.730
chanting Ukraine is not Russia

00:18:22.730 --> 00:18:25.309
Ukraine is not Russia Ukraine is not

00:18:25.309 --> 00:18:30.770
Russia Yanukovych fled to Moscow Putin

00:18:30.770 --> 00:18:33.260
was done trying to make nice he'd had it

00:18:33.260 --> 00:18:35.059
with the United States he was sure it

00:18:35.059 --> 00:18:37.340
was the United States meddling on his

00:18:37.340 --> 00:18:41.299
turf vice president Joseph R Biden had

00:18:41.299 --> 00:18:43.059
been in and out of Kiev for years

00:18:43.059 --> 00:18:45.260
insisting that the Obama administration

00:18:45.260 --> 00:18:47.620
would protect Ukraine from Russia

00:18:47.620 --> 00:18:51.130
Biden said we do not recognize and I

00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:53.800
want to reiterate it we do not recognize

00:18:53.800 --> 00:18:58.210
any sphere of influence and he followed

00:18:58.210 --> 00:19:00.090
that up with what sounded like an insult

00:19:00.090 --> 00:19:03.280
the Russians he said have a shrinking

00:19:03.280 --> 00:19:05.380
population base they have a withering

00:19:05.380 --> 00:19:07.570
economy they have a banking sector and

00:19:07.570 --> 00:19:09.100
structure that's not likely to be able

00:19:09.100 --> 00:19:11.770
to withstand the next 15 years they are

00:19:11.770 --> 00:19:13.360
in a situation where the world is

00:19:13.360 --> 00:19:15.340
changing before them and they are

00:19:15.340 --> 00:19:17.350
clinging to something in the past that

00:19:17.350 --> 00:19:19.740
is not sustainable

00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:26.560
Putin sort of took it personally so the

00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:28.540
good news is I scheduled a book tour and

00:19:28.540 --> 00:19:29.830
the publication of the book for the time

00:19:29.830 --> 00:19:36.880
when nothing is going on and I'm looking

00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.320
forward to talking a little bit tonight

00:19:38.320 --> 00:19:40.120
about how I do think that the oil and

00:19:40.120 --> 00:19:41.560
gas industry and its influence

00:19:41.560 --> 00:19:43.840
particularly how it works in the part of

00:19:43.840 --> 00:19:45.370
the world that is now an area of such

00:19:45.370 --> 00:19:47.290
focus for us I do think that links to

00:19:47.290 --> 00:19:48.760
the current impeachment crisis and I'm

00:19:48.760 --> 00:19:49.960
looking forward to talking about that

00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.780
but in terms of where this came from

00:19:52.780 --> 00:19:54.460
like I said at the top I did not set out

00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:56.170
to write a book about this industry I

00:19:56.170 --> 00:19:57.580
didn't start off knowing anything about

00:19:57.580 --> 00:20:00.040
this industry and people who know a lot

00:20:00.040 --> 00:20:01.390
about the industry probably think I

00:20:01.390 --> 00:20:05.140
still don't know anything but I I had

00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:06.820
two things that I was really stuck on

00:20:06.820 --> 00:20:10.980
and they both led me to this and one was

00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:15.040
this thing that I feel like we probably

00:20:15.040 --> 00:20:17.620
didn't know any of us in our lifetimes

00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:19.240
is going to become the fight of our

00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:22.930
lifetimes which is the fight between the

00:20:22.930 --> 00:20:26.170
rule of law between democratic rule of

00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:29.790
law liberal democracy and

00:20:29.790 --> 00:20:34.620
authoritarianism and to be facing

00:20:34.620 --> 00:20:37.570
structural and serious and potentially

00:20:37.570 --> 00:20:39.490
existential threats to our own democracy

00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:42.190
at home is sort of shocking enough I

00:20:42.190 --> 00:20:45.180
think for us as Americans but to see

00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:48.640
clearly that this is happening to us at

00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:50.290
a time when democracy is in decline

00:20:50.290 --> 00:20:52.480
around the world and authoritarianism is

00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.760
on the rise around the world I think

00:20:54.760 --> 00:20:58.180
should be centering for us it should

00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:00.610
make us realize that however America

00:21:00.610 --> 00:21:04.000
exceptionalism may function in our lives

00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.100
and in our foreign policy there are

00:21:06.100 --> 00:21:08.980
times in life and there are times in the

00:21:08.980 --> 00:21:11.650
evolution of Nations when bold strong

00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:13.840
patriotic citizens can learn a lot from

00:21:13.840 --> 00:21:15.280
people in other countries who have gone

00:21:15.280 --> 00:21:17.290
through this too and I think we have a

00:21:17.290 --> 00:21:19.030
lot of fellowship around the world right

00:21:19.030 --> 00:21:20.500
now with a lot of people who are trying

00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:22.480
to figure out how to do this right and

00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.840
in thinking about trying to contribute

00:21:25.840 --> 00:21:27.549
something meaningful e to this

00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:29.559
discussion something meaningful to this

00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.360
discussion about authoritarianism versus

00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:33.520
the rule of law I felt like I'd heard a

00:21:33.520 --> 00:21:36.730
lot of generic statements about

00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:38.140
democracy being good and

00:21:38.140 --> 00:21:40.720
authoritarianism being bad and generic

00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.610
statements about needing to fight for it

00:21:42.610 --> 00:21:44.440
and I felt like I wanted to get more

00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:48.429
specific and I think part of trying to

00:21:48.429 --> 00:21:50.260
shore up something that's at risk is

00:21:50.260 --> 00:21:53.650
figuring out what's hurting it figuring

00:21:53.650 --> 00:21:56.559
out what is within our culture within

00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:01.390
our economy within our political sphere

00:22:01.390 --> 00:22:04.000
that is sapping the strength of

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.620
democracy that's making it feel like a

00:22:05.620 --> 00:22:07.660
sham to so many people that's making

00:22:07.660 --> 00:22:10.059
strongman politics seem more attractive

00:22:10.059 --> 00:22:13.330
and I think you need to talk about big

00:22:13.330 --> 00:22:15.090
business when you talk about that I

00:22:15.090 --> 00:22:18.730
think the other thing that led me to

00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:20.740
this topic is something that you're

00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:23.080
probably less surprised by if you've

00:22:23.080 --> 00:22:24.669
ever seen the show which is that I'm

00:22:24.669 --> 00:22:28.299
kind of obsessed with Russia which I

00:22:28.299 --> 00:22:36.760
make no apologies for and but in all of

00:22:36.760 --> 00:22:38.200
the coverage that I've done and all the

00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:39.549
coverage that everybody in the media has

00:22:39.549 --> 00:22:41.410
done about what happened in 2016 in

00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:43.030
terms of our election I was really stuck

00:22:43.030 --> 00:22:44.860
trying to figure out the motive force

00:22:44.860 --> 00:22:49.750
for why why Russia did what it did in

00:22:49.750 --> 00:22:51.669
part because what they did was weird

00:22:51.669 --> 00:22:54.309
right there's like a guy who's connected

00:22:54.309 --> 00:22:56.440
to the Kremlin who runs like a social

00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:58.720
media factory that sounds like it's no

00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:01.480
fun and they're making they're creating

00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:03.820
fake American avatars and pretending to

00:23:03.820 --> 00:23:05.500
be Facebook groups that don't exist and

00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:07.270
then tricking Americans into going to

00:23:07.270 --> 00:23:09.669
demonstrations and also they're stealing

00:23:09.669 --> 00:23:12.220
Democratic Party risotto recipes and

00:23:12.220 --> 00:23:13.560
publishing them

00:23:13.560 --> 00:23:16.220
the name gusoff er 2.0 like what is this

00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:18.810
why is this happening and is why is it

00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:20.160
happening in this way these are odd

00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.270
tactics but also what's the risk and we

00:23:24.270 --> 00:23:26.400
risk and reward balance for Russia and

00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.160
this I mean as best as we can tell

00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:30.690
Russia seems to have thought that

00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:33.000
Hillary Clinton was gonna win too I mean

00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:34.080
they were doing their best to make sure

00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:35.340
that wasn't gonna happen but I think

00:23:35.340 --> 00:23:37.850
they still thought she was gonna win and

00:23:37.850 --> 00:23:40.110
if she had won

00:23:40.110 --> 00:23:42.390
I mean Secretary Clinton was already a

00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:44.310
hawk on Russia imagine if she'd come

00:23:44.310 --> 00:23:46.530
into the presidency with Russia having

00:23:46.530 --> 00:23:50.130
just taken this swing at her in our

00:23:50.130 --> 00:23:53.010
election to try to hurt her as president

00:23:53.010 --> 00:23:56.430
and to try to install her opponent had

00:23:56.430 --> 00:23:58.080
she become president they had to have

00:23:58.080 --> 00:23:59.610
known that things were probably going to

00:23:59.610 --> 00:24:03.030
go pear-shaped really fast but yet it

00:24:03.030 --> 00:24:05.850
was still worth it for them to try very

00:24:05.850 --> 00:24:09.300
very very very high-risk something that

00:24:09.300 --> 00:24:11.930
almost smacks of desperation

00:24:11.930 --> 00:24:15.840
well what I arrived at pretty quickly is

00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:17.580
that I think it's hard to understand

00:24:17.580 --> 00:24:19.080
Russia's own motivation in the world

00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:20.790
without understanding that their economy

00:24:20.790 --> 00:24:25.230
really sucks Russia is the biggest

00:24:25.230 --> 00:24:26.910
landmass of any country on earth they've

00:24:26.910 --> 00:24:28.500
got a hundred and fifty million people

00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:30.450
which is really big I mean Germany's

00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:32.520
eighty-five million people the UK 70

00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:34.380
million people Italy's 60 million people

00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:36.450
South Korea 50 million people brush is a

00:24:36.450 --> 00:24:37.980
hundred and fifty million people they've

00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:40.490
got an economy smaller than Italy's

00:24:40.490 --> 00:24:42.780
smaller than South Korea's triple the

00:24:42.780 --> 00:24:44.820
population and the same and a smaller

00:24:44.820 --> 00:24:50.370
economy and that itself is something

00:24:50.370 --> 00:24:53.070
that Russian politicians are the answer

00:24:53.070 --> 00:24:56.430
for but it gets you to sort of the next

00:24:56.430 --> 00:24:58.170
question well why is their economy so

00:24:58.170 --> 00:25:00.750
bad especially when they float on a sea

00:25:00.750 --> 00:25:04.680
of oil and gas generally speaking it

00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:06.870
turns out that oil and gas is a terrible

00:25:06.870 --> 00:25:08.730
thing on which to build your economy and

00:25:08.730 --> 00:25:11.340
that's part of what went wrong in Russia

00:25:11.340 --> 00:25:12.690
that's part of a bad gamble that

00:25:12.690 --> 00:25:14.670
Vladimir Putin made very early on in his

00:25:14.670 --> 00:25:17.430
presidency the other thing though that I

00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:19.970
think is important is that oil and gas

00:25:19.970 --> 00:25:22.350
not only isn't a good thing to build

00:25:22.350 --> 00:25:25.320
your economy on the oil and gas industry

00:25:25.320 --> 00:25:26.910
when it's big enough it kind of makes it

00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:29.880
political weather one thing they're

00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.620
actually really for all the things

00:25:31.620 --> 00:25:33.570
they're not good at like they are for

00:25:33.570 --> 00:25:35.160
example not good at cleaning up after

00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.970
themselves really like paper towels is

00:25:38.970 --> 00:25:40.590
still like the apex of what they have to

00:25:40.590 --> 00:25:43.350
offer in terms of oil spills I mean

00:25:43.350 --> 00:25:45.030
they're fancy very expensive paper

00:25:45.030 --> 00:25:46.800
towels but it's paper towels that's what

00:25:46.800 --> 00:25:49.410
they use for all the things they are not

00:25:49.410 --> 00:25:50.490
that good at they're not good at

00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:51.810
cleaning up after themselves they're not

00:25:51.810 --> 00:25:53.700
good at sailing to Alaska they're not

00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:54.930
good at all sorts of stuff you think

00:25:54.930 --> 00:25:57.180
they'd be good at but one thing they're

00:25:57.180 --> 00:25:58.860
really good at is getting governments of

00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:00.810
all shapes and sizes to serve them to

00:26:00.810 --> 00:26:02.760
serve their interests as an industry in

00:26:02.760 --> 00:26:04.470
a way that tends to Hubble the ability

00:26:04.470 --> 00:26:05.580
of that government to do a good job

00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:07.440
serving any other responsible purpose

00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.050
and that dynamic to me ended up being

00:26:10.050 --> 00:26:13.350
fascinated fascinating setting aside

00:26:13.350 --> 00:26:15.690
whatever might be bad for your country

00:26:15.690 --> 00:26:17.580
in terms of having oil and gas

00:26:17.580 --> 00:26:19.530
production there what we see over and

00:26:19.530 --> 00:26:20.940
over and over again is that where oil

00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:23.820
revenues flow government tends to suffer

00:26:23.820 --> 00:26:26.280
and that's true even when it's tons of

00:26:26.280 --> 00:26:29.910
oil revenues the founding energy

00:26:29.910 --> 00:26:33.660
minister of Saudi Arabia says and I

00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:36.390
quote all in all I wish we'd discovered

00:26:36.390 --> 00:26:41.100
water the founder of OPEC says as far as

00:26:41.100 --> 00:26:44.220
he can tell oil is quote the excrement

00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:49.470
of the devil the founder of OPEC not

00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:51.840
only says that oil is poop but oil is

00:26:51.840 --> 00:26:54.210
the devil's poop it's like there's

00:26:54.210 --> 00:26:57.090
definitely a book there right I don't I

00:26:57.090 --> 00:26:58.380
don't know what else is gonna be in the

00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:02.430
book but that is in the book and you

00:27:02.430 --> 00:27:04.860
know oil companies are full of regular

00:27:04.860 --> 00:27:07.050
people doing regular jobs both myself

00:27:07.050 --> 00:27:09.780
and my partner Susan we both have family

00:27:09.780 --> 00:27:11.160
members close family members have worked

00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:12.450
in the oil industry it's nothing

00:27:12.450 --> 00:27:13.110
personal

00:27:13.110 --> 00:27:14.850
whatsoever but this is an industry that

00:27:14.850 --> 00:27:19.260
is sort of nuking the planet 76 percent

00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:20.760
of carbon emissions in the United States

00:27:20.760 --> 00:27:22.410
are from burning oil or burning natural

00:27:22.410 --> 00:27:24.480
gas it's basically we're the biggest

00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.070
economy on earth you're talking about

00:27:26.070 --> 00:27:27.330
more than three-quarters of our

00:27:27.330 --> 00:27:28.560
emissions that's the big enchilada

00:27:28.560 --> 00:27:29.870
that's it

00:27:29.870 --> 00:27:34.230
oil and gas does also prop up terrible

00:27:34.230 --> 00:27:36.000
governments around the world and they

00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.010
weaken democratic accountable governance

00:27:38.010 --> 00:27:38.790
everywhere

00:27:38.790 --> 00:27:41.070
they operate I think on Russia

00:27:41.070 --> 00:27:42.570
specifically it is also worth

00:27:42.570 --> 00:27:44.580
understanding how much of a lifeline the

00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:46.440
big majors of the oil industry and

00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:48.810
ExxonMobil in particular how much of a

00:27:48.810 --> 00:27:50.610
lifeline they have been for what has

00:27:50.610 --> 00:27:53.850
morphed into basically malignant

00:27:53.850 --> 00:27:55.830
kleptocratic dictatorship that has tried

00:27:55.830 --> 00:27:57.960
to reorder the world and undo all

00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:00.510
Western alliances and smear itself all

00:28:00.510 --> 00:28:02.340
over US and all over every other Western

00:28:02.340 --> 00:28:04.730
democracy they can get their mitts on

00:28:04.730 --> 00:28:07.830
and so that's I think where we get to a

00:28:07.830 --> 00:28:09.150
little bit of this issue of that this

00:28:09.150 --> 00:28:11.310
conflict we've got between rising

00:28:11.310 --> 00:28:15.240
authoritarianism and the rule of law but

00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.200
I also just want to say just a couple of

00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.890
things in closing I am really hopeful

00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:24.900
about the ability to do something about

00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:26.130
this I wouldn't have written the book of

00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:27.720
I didn't think there was if it was sort

00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.900
of a can-do thing and part of what I

00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:32.910
think is can do about it is that I think

00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:34.590
it's understandable I don't think this

00:28:34.590 --> 00:28:37.500
is something that is 3d chess don't I

00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:38.940
don't think it's a conspiracy theory I

00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:41.040
don't think it's something that is too

00:28:41.040 --> 00:28:44.160
big to fathom and I think the solutions

00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:46.110
about how to deal with that how to shore

00:28:46.110 --> 00:28:48.780
up democracy by reining in and

00:28:48.780 --> 00:28:50.610
containing some of the forces that

00:28:50.610 --> 00:28:53.880
corrode our democracy it's doable stuff

00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:57.930
and the sort of one of the stories that

00:28:57.930 --> 00:28:59.400
I tell in the book the sort of heroic

00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.460
story in the book that's based in the

00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:05.460
United States is about schoolteachers in

00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:07.710
the great state of Oklahoma I did a book

00:29:07.710 --> 00:29:09.510
tour event earlier this week in Tulsa

00:29:09.510 --> 00:29:12.930
was freaking fantastic 3,000 people

00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:14.220
coming out to see Rachel Maddow talk

00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:16.050
about the oil and gas industry in Tulsa

00:29:16.050 --> 00:29:20.760
yeah bring it it's great they said it

00:29:20.760 --> 00:29:24.630
couldn't be done but in

00:29:24.630 --> 00:29:27.600
Oklahoma is a great great great teaching

00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:31.350
moment for all of us because Oklahoma is

00:29:31.350 --> 00:29:33.480
a state where the oil and gas industry

00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:35.100
is incredibly powerful and we're in many

00:29:35.100 --> 00:29:38.700
ways that industry has co-opted and

00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:40.830
taken over what should otherwise be

00:29:40.830 --> 00:29:43.080
government for the people and there's no

00:29:43.080 --> 00:29:44.430
shame in that that happens literally

00:29:44.430 --> 00:29:47.010
everywhere oil and gas is produced in

00:29:47.010 --> 00:29:49.710
quantity everywhere on earth but because

00:29:49.710 --> 00:29:52.230
of that co-optation

00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:53.549
Oklahoma started to have some really

00:29:53.549 --> 00:29:55.080
serious problems I mean including

00:29:55.080 --> 00:29:57.270
man-made earthquakes but not just that

00:29:57.270 --> 00:29:59.669
and the way they responded was that

00:29:59.669 --> 00:30:01.140
they've kind of flipped the light switch

00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:04.020
on their democracy and Oklahoma did not

00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:05.790
become an environmental Haven and

00:30:05.790 --> 00:30:07.679
Oklahoma did not shut down its oil and

00:30:07.679 --> 00:30:09.660
gas industry and oil and Oklahoma did

00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:12.620
not become a blue state but Oklahoma

00:30:12.620 --> 00:30:15.150
citizens of all ideological stripes

00:30:15.150 --> 00:30:17.730
decided that they needed to take back

00:30:17.730 --> 00:30:19.380
what their government was doing from the

00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:22.169
industry that was strangling it and they

00:30:22.169 --> 00:30:24.690
showed up in quantity led by the

00:30:24.690 --> 00:30:26.160
teachers and by the students who

00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.500
supported them and they reorganized

00:30:28.500 --> 00:30:31.169
their state budget and I know the level

00:30:31.169 --> 00:30:33.510
of the gross production tax for oil and

00:30:33.510 --> 00:30:34.740
natural gas in the state of Oklahoma

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:36.150
doesn't sound like it's the thing that's

00:30:36.150 --> 00:30:37.860
going to save the world but when they

00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:39.929
turned it from 2% to 5% by

00:30:39.929 --> 00:30:41.669
people-powered demonstrations under the

00:30:41.669 --> 00:30:44.400
Rotunda in the most oil and gas captured

00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:46.710
government within the United States that

00:30:46.710 --> 00:30:49.440
to me was the path even among those

00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:51.840
Republican teachers most of them even in

00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:54.090
that conservative state to know that

00:30:54.090 --> 00:30:58.020
this is doable stuff and I am inspired

00:30:58.020 --> 00:31:02.070
by that I am also humbled and inspired

00:31:02.070 --> 00:31:05.460
and in awe of the climate activist

00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:06.690
movement that's being led by young

00:31:06.690 --> 00:31:09.440
people right now

00:31:13.280 --> 00:31:16.549
I think that it is no secret that they

00:31:16.549 --> 00:31:19.940
will win what they are trying to do they

00:31:19.940 --> 00:31:23.330
are going to win and the question for

00:31:23.330 --> 00:31:24.710
the United States for those of us here

00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:29.750
in the u.s. is twofold one how quickly

00:31:29.750 --> 00:31:32.179
are we going to get there how quickly

00:31:32.179 --> 00:31:33.470
can we make this decision and how

00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:35.419
ambitious can be can we be when we make

00:31:35.419 --> 00:31:38.450
it but also can we rise to the occasion

00:31:38.450 --> 00:31:41.200
of being the biggest economy on earth

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.760
every Western oil major is either

00:31:43.760 --> 00:31:45.350
headquartered here or needs to do lots

00:31:45.350 --> 00:31:46.820
of business here and that means they are

00:31:46.820 --> 00:31:52.010
all de-facto regulated here and if the

00:31:52.010 --> 00:31:55.640
American public would stand up and do

00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:57.650
things at the federal level to regulate

00:31:57.650 --> 00:31:59.690
this industry that literally props up

00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:03.830
despot around the world that not only is

00:32:03.830 --> 00:32:05.960
game over for the climate in terms of

00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:07.640
them getting their way but that also

00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:10.070
erodes our own governance here and

00:32:10.070 --> 00:32:12.679
everywhere else they touch if we enacted

00:32:12.679 --> 00:32:14.150
the reforms at the federal level which

00:32:14.150 --> 00:32:15.980
is something we already started to do at

00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:17.539
the end of the Obama administration and

00:32:17.539 --> 00:32:19.669
it could be done it would have a

00:32:19.669 --> 00:32:22.640
worldwide effect in terms of shoring up

00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:24.320
democracy helping us make better

00:32:24.320 --> 00:32:27.020
decisions about the climate and making

00:32:27.020 --> 00:32:28.460
those decisions faster and with more

00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:30.580
ambition and it's within our reach and

00:32:30.580 --> 00:32:34.760
that to me is exciting and I will just

00:32:34.760 --> 00:32:36.909
close with one last thought which is I

00:32:36.909 --> 00:32:41.090
mentioned the paper towels thing it did

00:32:41.090 --> 00:32:44.150
surprise me in writing the book that the

00:32:44.150 --> 00:32:48.530
level of technological hmm that's the

00:32:48.530 --> 00:32:50.990
nice way to say this the way we

00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:53.210
overestimate the technological capacity

00:32:53.210 --> 00:32:55.039
of this large cup this large cut this

00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:56.750
large industry they're not as good as

00:32:56.750 --> 00:32:59.630
they think they are we overestimate

00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:01.120
their technological capability and we

00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:03.260
underestimate their geopolitical impact

00:33:03.260 --> 00:33:05.780
and if we are about to go through a

00:33:05.780 --> 00:33:08.000
worldwide reckoning in terms of the use

00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.000
of these fuels if we are about to have a

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:13.010
climate driven reckoning where we turn

00:33:13.010 --> 00:33:14.750
away from this industry at last because

00:33:14.750 --> 00:33:17.960
we need to obviously we're all focused

00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:19.429
on what the environmental impact of that

00:33:19.429 --> 00:33:21.320
will be but I think it is worth thinking

00:33:21.320 --> 00:33:22.580
in advance about the fact that that's

00:33:22.580 --> 00:33:24.230
going to have a big geopolitical impact

00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:26.780
too because this industry does prop up

00:33:26.780 --> 00:33:29.150
terrible governments all over the world

00:33:29.150 --> 00:33:32.120
they prop up whole systems of governance

00:33:32.120 --> 00:33:35.300
all around the world and if their market

00:33:35.300 --> 00:33:38.930
share precipitously drops and if they

00:33:38.930 --> 00:33:41.210
lose the power that they've got both

00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:42.860
just in terms of their wealth and in

00:33:42.860 --> 00:33:44.390
terms of their influence and how much we

00:33:44.390 --> 00:33:46.550
need them I think we should expect that

00:33:46.550 --> 00:33:48.830
the boundaries of countries may change I

00:33:48.830 --> 00:33:51.680
think we should expect governance writ

00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:53.630
large to change I think we should expect

00:33:53.630 --> 00:33:55.160
a number of governments around the world

00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.800
to fall and quickly and that's not to

00:33:57.800 --> 00:34:00.140
say we shouldn't do it but it means that

00:34:00.140 --> 00:34:01.730
when that happens when that tipping

00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:03.680
point comes and it will come these

00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:06.050
activists are gonna win when that moment

00:34:06.050 --> 00:34:09.110
comes we need to be able to hold

00:34:09.110 --> 00:34:11.540
ourselves up as an exemplar of democracy

00:34:11.540 --> 00:34:14.360
why democracy is the best system that

00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:16.489
anybody's ever invented to show that

00:34:16.489 --> 00:34:17.840
it's strong that it works for the people

00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:19.969
and when other forms of government are

00:34:19.969 --> 00:34:22.159
in decline and in collapse we're the

00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.469
example of what you want to be and

00:34:25.469 --> 00:34:28.559
[Music]

00:34:30.460 --> 00:34:34.089
so thank you all for coming I'm super

00:34:34.089 --> 00:34:35.020
happy to have you here I'm gonna put

00:34:35.020 --> 00:34:36.339
back on my glasses so now you're about

00:34:36.339 --> 00:34:41.199
to reappear and Alison is here and we're

00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:43.210
gonna do questions over there if I fall

00:34:43.210 --> 00:34:45.540
down between here and there

00:34:45.540 --> 00:35:03.069
thank you if I blue to floor it

00:35:03.069 --> 00:35:04.510
I didn't bring the book over because

00:35:04.510 --> 00:35:05.680
when you have crutches you can't put

00:35:05.680 --> 00:35:08.050
anything in your hands so if you want me

00:35:08.050 --> 00:35:09.609
to like reference anything I'll have to

00:35:09.609 --> 00:35:12.640
crawl over we'll have someone run into

00:35:12.640 --> 00:35:14.230
us okay how's that sound

00:35:14.230 --> 00:35:17.710
great there's water here okay so I think

00:35:17.710 --> 00:35:19.420
it goes without saying after your

00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:22.089
earlier reception that it is such a

00:35:22.089 --> 00:35:25.119
pleasure an honor and a thrill to have

00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:29.490
you Rachel Maddow in Chicago

00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.110
it's in I love this city I cannot

00:35:38.110 --> 00:35:40.720
believe how many people are here it's

00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:42.550
amazing I just I'm thrilled so thanks

00:35:42.550 --> 00:35:46.000
yeah yeah we are too and and I as you

00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.440
were saying I don't think any of us

00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.630
anticipated that the world at this

00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:54.310
moment would look feel sound like a kind

00:35:54.310 --> 00:35:58.660
of Rachel Maddow opening of a except on

00:35:58.660 --> 00:36:00.400
steroids you know that everything you've

00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.080
been talking about you know you were

00:36:02.080 --> 00:36:05.890
able to say this week on your show the

00:36:05.890 --> 00:36:08.290
Russians did it it was the Russians you

00:36:08.290 --> 00:36:09.460
know after the Senate Intelligence

00:36:09.460 --> 00:36:12.700
report came out about infirmed previous

00:36:12.700 --> 00:36:15.490
reports as you said a lot of the

00:36:15.490 --> 00:36:17.200
characters that are in the book or that

00:36:17.200 --> 00:36:18.840
you've been talking about on the show

00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.760
Rex Tillerson is back in the news he

00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.700
kind of gone dormant he came back just

00:36:24.700 --> 00:36:33.340
for the book launch supportive Dimitri

00:36:33.340 --> 00:36:35.590
firtash I'm so glad you found that one

00:36:35.590 --> 00:36:36.700
of the most interesting parts of the

00:36:36.700 --> 00:36:38.590
book but you know he's actually the

00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:40.180
extradition they're trying to extradite

00:36:40.180 --> 00:36:45.730
him to Chicago have you got any

00:36:45.730 --> 00:36:49.270
Ukrainian connections or Dimitri firtash

00:36:49.270 --> 00:36:51.910
goes on trial in Chicago I will be doing

00:36:51.910 --> 00:36:55.170
the Rachel Maddow Show from

00:37:00.869 --> 00:37:05.200
so yeah I mean it must must boom I mean

00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:06.849
these are terrible times but it must

00:37:06.849 --> 00:37:12.369
feel kind of good to you hey guys you

00:37:12.369 --> 00:37:14.200
know I've been talking about this yeah

00:37:14.200 --> 00:37:15.760
writing about the end of the world and

00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:22.810
now here it is I really I was thinking

00:37:22.810 --> 00:37:24.430
about the Russia attack and trying to

00:37:24.430 --> 00:37:26.800
figure out you know as I said the sort

00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:28.599
of motive force for what they did would

00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:30.130
explain their desperation what would

00:37:30.130 --> 00:37:32.320
possibly make it worth it what I think

00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:33.820
that we're actually trying to get out of

00:37:33.820 --> 00:37:35.680
that election interference I think

00:37:35.680 --> 00:37:37.780
sanctions I think you can't understand

00:37:37.780 --> 00:37:40.770
any of it without understanding how

00:37:40.770 --> 00:37:43.960
difficult sanctions make it for Russia

00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:45.940
specifically because they are an oil and

00:37:45.940 --> 00:37:48.369
gas economy and their own oil and gas

00:37:48.369 --> 00:37:50.770
companies are terrible because Putin is

00:37:50.770 --> 00:37:52.119
terrible

00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:53.740
like you kind of have to get all those

00:37:53.740 --> 00:37:55.270
pieces of the story but it does kind of

00:37:55.270 --> 00:37:57.550
fall into place I wasn't trying to

00:37:57.550 --> 00:37:59.080
explain what Trump was going to get

00:37:59.080 --> 00:38:02.880
impeached for that was just like a bonus

00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:06.040
icing on the cake I am curious because

00:38:06.040 --> 00:38:08.109
when you any as you were kind of closing

00:38:08.109 --> 00:38:09.880
and bringing this together and talking

00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:11.500
about the stakes in this and thinking

00:38:11.500 --> 00:38:14.650
about democracy authoritarianism you

00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:16.599
know you characterize the influence of

00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:19.450
oil and gas on politics as petroleum

00:38:19.450 --> 00:38:21.880
powered governance saying that it has

00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:24.970
twin engines corruption in which the

00:38:24.970 --> 00:38:26.530
industry effectively effectively

00:38:26.530 --> 00:38:29.530
captures politicians and then capture in

00:38:29.530 --> 00:38:32.290
which the industry effectively comes to

00:38:32.290 --> 00:38:35.020
own the government and when you look at

00:38:35.020 --> 00:38:37.510
the operations of oil and gas in Russia

00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:39.640
when you look at the operations of oil

00:38:39.640 --> 00:38:41.140
and gas and their influence in the

00:38:41.140 --> 00:38:42.970
United States and of course this book is

00:38:42.970 --> 00:38:45.430
about how they intertwine and take that

00:38:45.430 --> 00:38:48.609
step back as you're asking us to do what

00:38:48.609 --> 00:38:50.080
are the differences and are the

00:38:50.080 --> 00:38:53.470
differences of degree or are they of

00:38:53.470 --> 00:38:57.550
kind between Russia and us yes the thing

00:38:57.550 --> 00:39:00.700
that Putin recognized about the oil and

00:39:00.700 --> 00:39:03.460
gas industry I mean Russia really is

00:39:03.460 --> 00:39:05.560
floating on a sea of oil and gas they

00:39:05.560 --> 00:39:07.330
they have a ton of it and they were

00:39:07.330 --> 00:39:09.190
among the first places in the world

00:39:09.190 --> 00:39:11.710
to ever drill it in the former Soviet

00:39:11.710 --> 00:39:15.700
Union and the Western Siberia noil sands

00:39:15.700 --> 00:39:18.220
are incredibly easy to drill you don't

00:39:18.220 --> 00:39:20.799
need very fancy technology in order to

00:39:20.799 --> 00:39:23.650
do it and so it's always been a stable

00:39:23.650 --> 00:39:26.890
part of even the Soviet economy before

00:39:26.890 --> 00:39:29.500
the Russian Federation but when when

00:39:29.500 --> 00:39:31.630
Putin got into power that's obviously

00:39:31.630 --> 00:39:33.760
the time when Russia is in transition

00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:35.890
post Yeltsin right

00:39:35.890 --> 00:39:39.039
and Putin sort of has a decision to make

00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.559
as to whether or not Russia is going to

00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:46.210
economically liberalize enough to have a

00:39:46.210 --> 00:39:48.339
diversified economy they're gonna have

00:39:48.339 --> 00:39:50.319
oil and gas at some level no matter what

00:39:50.319 --> 00:39:51.970
but in order to have a diversified

00:39:51.970 --> 00:39:54.910
economy and a well-balanced economy you

00:39:54.910 --> 00:39:58.000
kind of need like property rights rule

00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.520
of law a legal system that isn't just

00:40:00.520 --> 00:40:03.309
used to kill your enemies and and give

00:40:03.309 --> 00:40:07.599
favors to your kids you need a lack of

00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:10.180
general corruption at everything from

00:40:10.180 --> 00:40:12.730
the permitting process to the election

00:40:12.730 --> 00:40:16.029
process and that was it seemed terrible

00:40:16.029 --> 00:40:19.029
to Vladimir Putin the idea that you'd

00:40:19.029 --> 00:40:20.200
have to go through these sort of

00:40:20.200 --> 00:40:21.010
nation-building

00:40:21.010 --> 00:40:23.670
things in order to develop a modern

00:40:23.670 --> 00:40:27.339
capitalist diversified economy was not

00:40:27.339 --> 00:40:29.380
going to work for him and so he decided

00:40:29.380 --> 00:40:32.619
to kind of go all in on oil and gas to

00:40:32.619 --> 00:40:37.200
the basic basically to the extent where

00:40:37.200 --> 00:40:41.619
he took over the industry so that it

00:40:41.619 --> 00:40:43.270
could essentially be used as a power of

00:40:43.270 --> 00:40:45.400
that as a tool of the presidency right

00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:48.099
oil is power oil is corrupt and so

00:40:48.099 --> 00:40:50.710
Russia is a weak country with a weak

00:40:50.710 --> 00:40:52.869
economy which that what it would take to

00:40:52.869 --> 00:40:54.549
make it a strong economy he can't bear

00:40:54.549 --> 00:40:56.619
so it's gonna be a weak economy having a

00:40:56.619 --> 00:40:58.390
weak economy having a weak political

00:40:58.390 --> 00:41:00.309
structure that's essentially evolved

00:41:00.309 --> 00:41:01.329
into just this kleptocratic

00:41:01.329 --> 00:41:03.460
authoritarianism now there's not much to

00:41:03.460 --> 00:41:05.230
offer and it's not that's not the way

00:41:05.230 --> 00:41:06.400
you become a stronger and more

00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.289
influential country but he still sees

00:41:08.289 --> 00:41:11.339
Russia as having an international scale

00:41:11.339 --> 00:41:13.839
but having ambitions of international

00:41:13.839 --> 00:41:15.609
scale and so the reason that oil and gas

00:41:15.609 --> 00:41:17.980
was so attractive to him as something he

00:41:17.980 --> 00:41:19.869
was willing to rely on in its entirety

00:41:19.869 --> 00:41:22.359
was because if he could control them and

00:41:22.359 --> 00:41:22.779
wheel

00:41:22.779 --> 00:41:26.140
his tools he could use them as weapons

00:41:26.140 --> 00:41:28.569
against other countries and that's what

00:41:28.569 --> 00:41:30.369
he's done in the near abroad in terms of

00:41:30.369 --> 00:41:31.839
all the former Soviet states Ukraine

00:41:31.839 --> 00:41:33.519
first among them but that's also what

00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:35.349
he's doing with Western Europe I mean he

00:41:35.349 --> 00:41:37.659
can literally turn the lights off at

00:41:37.659 --> 00:41:41.469
will in Germany and in Ukraine and in

00:41:41.469 --> 00:41:44.669
lots of other places and that power is

00:41:44.669 --> 00:41:47.289
irresistible to him and it's really the

00:41:47.289 --> 00:41:50.199
only power that he's got and so to see

00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:52.689
oil and gas used as a weapon there and

00:41:52.689 --> 00:41:55.449
to see him make the because he wanted to

00:41:55.449 --> 00:41:57.189
control it himself he couldn't allow for

00:41:57.189 --> 00:41:59.349
there to be good companies run by strong

00:41:59.349 --> 00:42:00.909
guys who got rich doing it because they

00:42:00.909 --> 00:42:01.869
were good at the oil and gas business

00:42:01.869 --> 00:42:03.969
anytime anybody got good at it he would

00:42:03.969 --> 00:42:06.429
lock them up take their company and fold

00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:08.709
it into Ross and after gas problem so

00:42:08.709 --> 00:42:10.419
their help they have a terrible oil and

00:42:10.419 --> 00:42:11.619
gas sector even though it's all they've

00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:14.289
got its run by like his judo partners

00:42:14.289 --> 00:42:15.939
for money with seven it's all these guys

00:42:15.939 --> 00:42:17.890
with like noses that go this way and you

00:42:17.890 --> 00:42:19.900
know kicked dogs for fun on their coffee

00:42:19.900 --> 00:42:22.079
breaks I mean it's just they're terrible

00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:25.719
the Gazprom lost over 300 billion

00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:27.880
dollars of its valuation since this guy

00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:29.529
Alexey Miller has been in charge but

00:42:29.529 --> 00:42:30.729
he's still in charge because he's doing

00:42:30.729 --> 00:42:32.859
exactly what Putin wants them to do with

00:42:32.859 --> 00:42:34.900
that company it's they're terrible in

00:42:34.900 --> 00:42:38.140
order to drill oil and gas in Russia as

00:42:38.140 --> 00:42:40.599
they run out of the easy oil and gas

00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:41.919
that they were used to as they need to

00:42:41.919 --> 00:42:43.779
get to more challenging drilling

00:42:43.779 --> 00:42:45.819
locations like the Arctic sea and all

00:42:45.819 --> 00:42:46.959
these other places they want to drill

00:42:46.959 --> 00:42:48.640
they can't do it with the terrible

00:42:48.640 --> 00:42:50.829
companies they have they need to tap

00:42:50.829 --> 00:42:52.599
Western experts this is one ant with

00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:53.709
sanction this is one of the ironies

00:42:53.709 --> 00:42:55.659
right the rhetoric in the United States

00:42:55.659 --> 00:42:58.150
in some circles has long been that we

00:42:58.150 --> 00:43:00.699
are dependent on foreign oil and in fact

00:43:00.699 --> 00:43:03.039
foreign or at least Russian oil is

00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:06.519
highly dependent on our oil and and our

00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:08.859
oil expertise as they're saying it's a

00:43:08.859 --> 00:43:11.140
form of people like Rex Tillerson and

00:43:11.140 --> 00:43:13.689
Exxon yeah and not in it turned like it

00:43:13.689 --> 00:43:15.189
turns out there's like these amazing

00:43:15.189 --> 00:43:18.189
stories to tell about that I mean so

00:43:18.189 --> 00:43:21.400
Russia after what I was describing there

00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:22.989
in terms of Yanukovych turning tail and

00:43:22.989 --> 00:43:26.979
fleeing and Putin being really mad right

00:43:26.979 --> 00:43:28.359
what we all know what happened right

00:43:28.359 --> 00:43:30.039
after that right Putin invaded Ukraine

00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:33.009
and took part of it and in response the

00:43:33.009 --> 00:43:36.230
u.s. put sanctions on them and in 2014

00:43:36.230 --> 00:43:39.590
who Rosneft had just done a half

00:43:39.590 --> 00:43:41.900
trillion dollar oil deal the largest oil

00:43:41.900 --> 00:43:45.080
deal in the history of deals Ross left

00:43:45.080 --> 00:43:47.090
of Justin a huge half trillion dollar

00:43:47.090 --> 00:43:49.100
deal with Exxon to go do some of this

00:43:49.100 --> 00:43:51.470
challenging drilling up in the Arctic

00:43:51.470 --> 00:43:54.800
among other places and Rex Tillerson is

00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:56.119
the one who did that deal lots of other

00:43:56.119 --> 00:43:58.010
Western executives have had a really

00:43:58.010 --> 00:43:59.869
hard time in Russia but Rex figured it

00:43:59.869 --> 00:44:06.530
out somehow he didn't Putin somehow saw

00:44:06.530 --> 00:44:08.660
eye to eye he was able to do this giant

00:44:08.660 --> 00:44:10.460
deal and they were up there drilling in

00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:14.500
the Arctic sea as or in the Kara Sea as

00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:17.180
US sanctions on Russia were going into

00:44:17.180 --> 00:44:19.460
effect as US sanctions on the head of

00:44:19.460 --> 00:44:21.440
Russia's national oil company we're

00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:23.270
going into effect and Rex and Exxon are

00:44:23.270 --> 00:44:24.530
still there going we need a couple more

00:44:24.530 --> 00:44:26.510
days we need a couple more days we have

00:44:26.510 --> 00:44:28.430
we need an environmental waiver we're

00:44:28.430 --> 00:44:30.080
worried about cleaning up properly

00:44:30.080 --> 00:44:31.910
because of the birds we're really

00:44:31.910 --> 00:44:34.010
worried about the we can't leave and

00:44:34.010 --> 00:44:35.420
they're trying to get one more day one

00:44:35.420 --> 00:44:37.040
more day one more day one more extension

00:44:37.040 --> 00:44:38.810
because they're trying to hit oil before

00:44:38.810 --> 00:44:42.770
they go and they do they hit oil and

00:44:42.770 --> 00:44:44.480
then the next day sanctions yanked them

00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.550
out of there and Russian oil and gas

00:44:46.550 --> 00:44:48.770
companies suck so badly that even with

00:44:48.770 --> 00:44:51.260
Exxon having drilled the well and found

00:44:51.260 --> 00:44:53.270
the oil and pointed them toward it they

00:44:53.270 --> 00:44:56.450
can't get it out of the ground and so

00:44:56.450 --> 00:44:58.460
since that day with that half trillion

00:44:58.460 --> 00:45:00.380
dollar deal on ice because of u.s.

00:45:00.380 --> 00:45:01.480
foreign policy

00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:03.980
Russia has been up against it this is

00:45:03.980 --> 00:45:05.090
the only thing they've got in their

00:45:05.090 --> 00:45:06.230
economy how are they going to get that

00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:08.570
oil they need this they need Exxon they

00:45:08.570 --> 00:45:10.220
need these Western companies well u.s.

00:45:10.220 --> 00:45:11.690
foreign policy says they can't use them

00:45:11.690 --> 00:45:14.119
well who should our guy who we just

00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:16.430
installed in the White House be put in

00:45:16.430 --> 00:45:19.369
charge of u.s. foreign policy then how

00:45:19.369 --> 00:45:21.700
about Rex

00:45:21.700 --> 00:45:25.069
it's an existential threat to them it

00:45:25.069 --> 00:45:27.079
was worth it right man they also did

00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:28.999
things despite sanctions like the

00:45:28.999 --> 00:45:31.249
annexation of Crimea and their

00:45:31.249 --> 00:45:34.220
developing oil and drilling there and I

00:45:34.220 --> 00:45:36.140
wondered but reading that story it's

00:45:36.140 --> 00:45:38.749
about you know what Russia is trying to

00:45:38.749 --> 00:45:41.239
do to maintain this power and hold on to

00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:43.549
it and it ensure a steady supply of it

00:45:43.549 --> 00:45:46.759
because it is all power to them but it's

00:45:46.759 --> 00:45:49.339
also about Exxon and Tillerson and

00:45:49.339 --> 00:45:50.779
others trying to figure out how do we

00:45:50.779 --> 00:45:52.880
work around the edges of these sanctions

00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:54.289
and what are the loopholes so we can

00:45:54.289 --> 00:45:57.410
continue to do this and it struck me in

00:45:57.410 --> 00:45:59.509
as all of this is coming together into

00:45:59.509 --> 00:46:02.420
that great big you know the the Rachel

00:46:02.420 --> 00:46:04.539
Maddow prophecy that is now on earth

00:46:04.539 --> 00:46:08.720
said that there's something similar in

00:46:08.720 --> 00:46:14.019
the way that President Trump and and

00:46:14.019 --> 00:46:16.519
some of the people around him are kind

00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:17.660
of you know right now they're not

00:46:17.660 --> 00:46:19.460
talking about the content of the

00:46:19.460 --> 00:46:21.079
impeachment and all the news that is

00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:23.329
coming out Gordon Sandlin just now is

00:46:23.329 --> 00:46:25.039
saying that he will go before Congress

00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.950
and talk about the quid pro quo they're

00:46:27.950 --> 00:46:30.559
talking about the legality of this and

00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:32.180
kind of refusing it and that is

00:46:32.180 --> 00:46:34.819
something that this president has seemed

00:46:34.819 --> 00:46:39.349
very good at to kind of test guardrails

00:46:39.349 --> 00:46:41.210
and then push right through them and

00:46:41.210 --> 00:46:43.309
ignore them and so as we're moving

00:46:43.309 --> 00:46:46.009
forward and as you're watching this what

00:46:46.009 --> 00:46:47.719
do you think to come back to that

00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.690
question of if we are the kind of stop

00:46:50.690 --> 00:46:53.390
you know this is where it stops our

00:46:53.390 --> 00:46:55.339
democracy we have to be the best

00:46:55.339 --> 00:46:57.589
what should the Democrats be doing to

00:46:57.589 --> 00:46:59.960
try and enforce those kind of democratic

00:46:59.960 --> 00:47:02.719
guardrails against them when he

00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.489
seemingly does not seem to care about

00:47:04.489 --> 00:47:06.259
them or even acknowledge them yeah I

00:47:06.259 --> 00:47:08.599
mean I what's been interesting I think

00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:10.039
with the president it's a very astute

00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:12.920
point I think is that I feel like what

00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:14.749
we've watched in real time over the

00:47:14.749 --> 00:47:17.719
course of his presidency is that he

00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:20.180
learns where these democratic norms are

00:47:20.180 --> 00:47:22.819
in real time by crossing them because he

00:47:22.819 --> 00:47:26.719
didn't know they were there like I'm not

00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:28.700
supposed to just give security

00:47:28.700 --> 00:47:31.100
clearances to my kids

00:47:31.100 --> 00:47:34.170
this is a problem oh you're bothered by

00:47:34.170 --> 00:47:34.440
this

00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:36.030
yeah I'm given security clearances to

00:47:36.030 --> 00:47:38.910
everybody you know like he learns what

00:47:38.910 --> 00:47:41.369
if the problem learns what's illegal or

00:47:41.369 --> 00:47:43.860
what the problem is by doing it and then

00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:47.970
decides to make a virtue of it and so

00:47:47.970 --> 00:47:49.920
that makes it hard to figure out like

00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:52.950
usually when people do stuff in politics

00:47:52.950 --> 00:47:55.550
that's bad like that getting caught is

00:47:55.550 --> 00:47:58.440
the start of it getting fixed but in

00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:00.420
this case getting caught is the start of

00:48:00.420 --> 00:48:02.220
the Republican Party trying to celebrate

00:48:02.220 --> 00:48:04.430
that at that crime is a new virtue and

00:48:04.430 --> 00:48:14.730
that shamelessness about about about

00:48:14.730 --> 00:48:16.010
what they're doing wrong

00:48:16.010 --> 00:48:19.230
makes it hard I mean our most of our

00:48:19.230 --> 00:48:21.960
tools within the Democrat within our

00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:24.360
American democratic process are based on

00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:27.030
shame that if you do this you will have

00:48:27.030 --> 00:48:28.800
to disclose it and once you disclose it

00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.420
people will criticize you for it and you

00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:31.980
will be ashamed and that is the

00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:33.390
disincentive for you to do the thing in

00:48:33.390 --> 00:48:35.940
the first place well not if you don't

00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:40.830
have any shame so it's hard but I mean

00:48:40.830 --> 00:48:44.130
the the thing I am I the thing I see the

00:48:44.130 --> 00:48:46.410
Democrats doing that I think is

00:48:46.410 --> 00:48:48.930
unavoidable but also keeps me up a

00:48:48.930 --> 00:48:50.760
little bit at night is that they are

00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:54.359
taking the things that used to be rules

00:48:54.359 --> 00:48:57.540
that the president has gleefully broken

00:48:57.540 --> 00:48:59.430
and that the Republican Party and the

00:48:59.430 --> 00:49:01.170
president's supporters have tried to

00:49:01.170 --> 00:49:04.109
turn into virtues because he has broken

00:49:04.109 --> 00:49:05.700
those things there

00:49:05.700 --> 00:49:08.040
the Democrats are now looking at those

00:49:08.040 --> 00:49:09.270
rules and thinking about making them

00:49:09.270 --> 00:49:11.700
into laws the things that you were just

00:49:11.700 --> 00:49:13.170
supposed to not do because they were

00:49:13.170 --> 00:49:15.000
disgusting or because they were

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:17.070
politically unpalatable you will now not

00:49:17.070 --> 00:49:20.910
be allowed to do and that's probably

00:49:20.910 --> 00:49:26.760
necessary but it also change our

00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:31.770
democratic system and I don't want the

00:49:31.770 --> 00:49:34.170
judiciary to be the only check on our

00:49:34.170 --> 00:49:38.450
political officials especially

00:49:40.470 --> 00:49:42.970
because I'm very worried about the

00:49:42.970 --> 00:49:44.470
direction of the justice department

00:49:44.470 --> 00:49:48.430
right now I mean the the biggest norm

00:49:48.430 --> 00:49:50.230
that has been broken in this

00:49:50.230 --> 00:49:52.180
administration I think has actually not

00:49:52.180 --> 00:49:53.680
been broken by the president but by the

00:49:53.680 --> 00:49:57.040
Attorney General and the most serious

00:49:57.040 --> 00:49:58.720
thing that we have to worry about in

00:49:58.720 --> 00:50:00.730
terms of the drift of our democracy

00:50:00.730 --> 00:50:03.460
right now is I think the use of the US

00:50:03.460 --> 00:50:06.760
Justice Department to punish the

00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:08.320
president's political opponents and

00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:14.830
reward his political allies that that is

00:50:14.830 --> 00:50:16.600
something for which a former attorney

00:50:16.600 --> 00:50:18.160
general named John Mitchell went to

00:50:18.160 --> 00:50:23.020
prison in the 1970s and I'm I feel like

00:50:23.020 --> 00:50:25.630
if John Mitchell were alive right now

00:50:25.630 --> 00:50:27.700
and working in the Justice Department

00:50:27.700 --> 00:50:29.650
his only worry would be how fast he was

00:50:29.650 --> 00:50:33.190
getting promoted and I'm very very

00:50:33.190 --> 00:50:34.960
concerned about that and you couple that

00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.390
with the sort of neat this feeling among

00:50:37.390 --> 00:50:38.980
the Democrats that this stuff ought to

00:50:38.980 --> 00:50:40.360
be illegal so nobody else can get away

00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:43.150
with it the way Trump has those those

00:50:43.150 --> 00:50:44.610
things pull me in opposite directions

00:50:44.610 --> 00:50:49.300
mm-hmm yeah I you know I an audience

00:50:49.300 --> 00:50:52.030
question for you there's a number of

00:50:52.030 --> 00:50:53.830
things to be worrying about but there's

00:50:53.830 --> 00:50:56.290
also this question from Vicki Fogerty if

00:50:56.290 --> 00:50:58.630
and you've answered this already but

00:50:58.630 --> 00:51:01.150
since as you say everything's moving so

00:51:01.150 --> 00:51:02.920
quickly I curious to know what your

00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:06.130
answer is now low these three days later

00:51:06.130 --> 00:51:08.770
Vicki Fogerty asks if the evidence is

00:51:08.770 --> 00:51:10.300
there for impeachment do you believe the

00:51:10.300 --> 00:51:12.400
republican-controlled Senate will

00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:15.160
impeach so that's the first part what

00:51:15.160 --> 00:51:18.010
will the Senate do yeah I have no idea I

00:51:18.010 --> 00:51:20.140
mean it's very easy I think to look at

00:51:20.140 --> 00:51:22.060
Mitch McConnell from a distance and be

00:51:22.060 --> 00:51:24.570
like yeah okay

00:51:24.570 --> 00:51:28.480
but I also I do feel like we are in a

00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:30.310
special moment and it is worth

00:51:30.310 --> 00:51:33.820
appreciating the unique nature of the

00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:34.930
thing that our country is going through

00:51:34.930 --> 00:51:37.030
right now I mean President Trump has

00:51:37.030 --> 00:51:39.040
been very controversial since before his

00:51:39.040 --> 00:51:41.380
election and the idea that he is now

00:51:41.380 --> 00:51:42.940
being impeached in some ways I think

00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:45.520
feels inevitable feels like you know a

00:51:45.520 --> 00:51:47.440
relief for people who have been critical

00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:51.760
of his behavior but impeachment is

00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:54.610
is is a hen's tooth I mean it's a really

00:51:54.610 --> 00:51:58.650
rare thing it was Andrew Johnson in 1867

00:51:58.650 --> 00:52:01.120
keep me honest I think they tried to

00:52:01.120 --> 00:52:03.670
impeach him in 67 and they failed and

00:52:03.670 --> 00:52:05.050
then they went back with like exactly

00:52:05.050 --> 00:52:06.940
the same articles innate to 1868 and

00:52:06.940 --> 00:52:09.850
they got him then and Johnson was not

00:52:09.850 --> 00:52:12.430
removed because of Furth for want of one

00:52:12.430 --> 00:52:14.020
vote in the Senate so that was the house

00:52:14.020 --> 00:52:15.520
impeaching him the Senate not removing

00:52:15.520 --> 00:52:17.470
him you have to get to the 90s before we

00:52:17.470 --> 00:52:19.990
do it again Richard Nixon resigned

00:52:19.990 --> 00:52:21.460
without being impeached yes they were

00:52:21.460 --> 00:52:23.350
drawing up impeachment articles but he

00:52:23.350 --> 00:52:25.150
resigned rather than face that so it's

00:52:25.150 --> 00:52:27.070
Andrew Johnson and Richard and and Bill

00:52:27.070 --> 00:52:29.320
Clinton that's it that's the only

00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:31.360
history that we've got as a country with

00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:33.070
impeachment and if you think that you

00:52:33.070 --> 00:52:34.630
can extrapolate from those two examples

00:52:34.630 --> 00:52:37.150
right to understand you know what's

00:52:37.150 --> 00:52:39.820
normal but if the Republican if the

00:52:39.820 --> 00:52:42.850
Senate does not yeah in vote to impeach

00:52:42.850 --> 00:52:44.530
what does that do to the Republican

00:52:44.530 --> 00:52:46.150
Party that's the second half of the case

00:52:46.150 --> 00:52:49.180
well I don't I mean I don't I don't know

00:52:49.180 --> 00:52:50.920
what's going to happen I don't know when

00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:53.050
the Democrats are going to take their

00:52:53.050 --> 00:52:54.190
impeachment vote and I don't know what

00:52:54.190 --> 00:52:55.450
they're gonna try to impeach him on I

00:52:55.450 --> 00:52:57.640
think the number of articles that they

00:52:57.640 --> 00:52:59.140
try to impeach him on may end up being

00:52:59.140 --> 00:53:00.790
very important just in terms of the game

00:53:00.790 --> 00:53:03.070
theory of all of this in terms of the

00:53:03.070 --> 00:53:04.690
numbers of Republicans who may find

00:53:04.690 --> 00:53:06.940
something in an article three that they

00:53:06.940 --> 00:53:10.030
didn't like in an article two when it

00:53:10.030 --> 00:53:12.370
gets to the US Senate I think that most

00:53:12.370 --> 00:53:14.350
democratic senators will likely vote to

00:53:14.350 --> 00:53:17.260
remove I think that Republican senators

00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:19.510
are basically thought to not have any

00:53:19.510 --> 00:53:21.340
chance of that but I also feel like we

00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:22.780
should be humble about that prediction

00:53:22.780 --> 00:53:24.190
I don't know what's gonna happen we

00:53:24.190 --> 00:53:25.300
don't know what's gonna come out and

00:53:25.300 --> 00:53:27.340
preachments only been going on for three

00:53:27.340 --> 00:53:28.690
weeks now and look how much we've

00:53:28.690 --> 00:53:33.540
learned we didn't even know Igor

00:53:36.220 --> 00:53:38.150
did you guys see the picture that

00:53:38.150 --> 00:53:40.970
circulated today which is Igor and Lev

00:53:40.970 --> 00:53:46.010
and Mike Huckabee and Igor or love again

00:53:46.010 --> 00:53:47.060
I'm sorry I don't know which one of them

00:53:47.060 --> 00:53:53.630
is literally holding a bag of money is

00:53:53.630 --> 00:53:57.920
this Halloween costume is it I don't

00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:01.340
know what will happen I think listen if

00:54:01.340 --> 00:54:04.670
Mitch McConnell was never going to do

00:54:04.670 --> 00:54:05.960
anything and he knew that from the

00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:08.200
beginning no matter what came out

00:54:08.200 --> 00:54:10.310
weren't you surprised when he came out

00:54:10.310 --> 00:54:11.870
and said in an interview the other day

00:54:11.870 --> 00:54:13.670
like actually we will be forced to take

00:54:13.670 --> 00:54:15.320
this up in the Senate as I understand

00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:16.490
the impeachment process but you don't

00:54:16.490 --> 00:54:17.810
have a choice we got to bring it up now

00:54:17.810 --> 00:54:19.280
he very quickly said now I don't know

00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:21.080
how long that means we'll spend on it

00:54:21.080 --> 00:54:22.820
and so maybe that means he convenes the

00:54:22.820 --> 00:54:24.320
impeachment trial adjourns it and it's

00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:26.480
over in the blink of an eye but he could

00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:28.280
have Merrick garland did this thing just

00:54:28.280 --> 00:54:28.880
as easily

00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:30.470
I mean Mitch McConnell is not that

00:54:30.470 --> 00:54:32.300
worried about the niceties of Senate

00:54:32.300 --> 00:54:33.860
procedure when it comes to getting

00:54:33.860 --> 00:54:35.300
something important that he wants for

00:54:35.300 --> 00:54:37.130
partisan purposes and I say that with

00:54:37.130 --> 00:54:41.150
great deal of admiration but he could

00:54:41.150 --> 00:54:43.040
have just said no there's no chance

00:54:43.040 --> 00:54:44.930
we're not taking it up don't bother he

00:54:44.930 --> 00:54:47.180
didn't which means he's keeping a door

00:54:47.180 --> 00:54:50.540
open for himself and I just don't think

00:54:50.540 --> 00:54:52.010
we should prejudge any stuff of this I

00:54:52.010 --> 00:54:53.990
think we need to have eyes open I think

00:54:53.990 --> 00:54:56.780
that Republican I think that Republican

00:54:56.780 --> 00:54:59.120
politicians and Democratic politicians

00:54:59.120 --> 00:55:01.400
right now could both benefit from our

00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:03.530
high expectations and lack of cynicism

00:55:03.530 --> 00:55:06.200
about this process expect the best and

00:55:06.200 --> 00:55:09.140
the most for almost all of these

00:55:09.140 --> 00:55:10.850
politicians what they do in this

00:55:10.850 --> 00:55:12.920
impeachment process will be in the first

00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.170
paragraph of their obituary and they all

00:55:15.170 --> 00:55:18.680
know it and that has a tendency to focus

00:55:18.680 --> 00:55:20.630
a person's eyes on the horizon rather

00:55:20.630 --> 00:55:22.610
than on their own feet and I think that

00:55:22.610 --> 00:55:24.980
we I mean if you are a dyed-in-the-wool

00:55:24.980 --> 00:55:27.350
Democrat or super liberal super

00:55:27.350 --> 00:55:30.200
progressive or the opposite expect the

00:55:30.200 --> 00:55:32.600
most and demand the most of people on

00:55:32.600 --> 00:55:33.890
both sides of the aisle right here this

00:55:33.890 --> 00:55:35.540
really isn't supposed to be a partisan

00:55:35.540 --> 00:55:37.490
thing this is supposed to be a patriotic

00:55:37.490 --> 00:55:39.020
thing and I think we should feel solemn

00:55:39.020 --> 00:55:41.410
about that

00:55:47.270 --> 00:55:49.710
but it's hard not to shrug at some of

00:55:49.710 --> 00:55:52.110
the high jinks there are some hijinks

00:55:52.110 --> 00:55:54.690
yes yes the tagline of your show so I

00:55:54.690 --> 00:55:57.600
want to move away from love and he or

00:55:57.600 --> 00:56:00.510
Gore and Rudy and Mitch to talk about

00:56:00.510 --> 00:56:03.330
you the tagline in their show is trying

00:56:03.330 --> 00:56:04.430
to increase the amount of useful

00:56:04.430 --> 00:56:06.840
information in the world so you do deal

00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:09.660
in reason and information facts rational

00:56:09.660 --> 00:56:12.450
arguments you try to ground us you know

00:56:12.450 --> 00:56:15.210
give us that solid solid standing but

00:56:15.210 --> 00:56:17.310
people I don't know how many people that

00:56:17.310 --> 00:56:18.870
I told you were coming who were

00:56:18.870 --> 00:56:22.020
immediately like I guess you know

00:56:22.020 --> 00:56:26.190
shocked so excited and then said I get

00:56:26.190 --> 00:56:28.800
so worked up watching this show oh I

00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:31.170
mean in fact I witnessed this I I hope

00:56:31.170 --> 00:56:32.940
this isn't tiem I you know I dated

00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:35.670
someone briefly who was a big Rachel

00:56:35.670 --> 00:56:36.000
Maddow

00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:38.820
fan watched the show and get enormous

00:56:38.820 --> 00:56:40.830
Lee worked up like this and this is not

00:56:40.830 --> 00:56:42.570
the reason we stopped dating but I did

00:56:42.570 --> 00:56:45.210
at some point feel like Rachel Maddow is

00:56:45.210 --> 00:56:46.980
a bigger presence in this relationship

00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:50.030
[Laughter]

00:56:50.030 --> 00:56:53.490
[Applause]

00:56:53.490 --> 00:56:59.460
[Laughter]

00:57:00.620 --> 00:57:03.300
wait can we talk a little bit about the

00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:05.040
nature of the worked up like angry

00:57:05.040 --> 00:57:07.380
anxious upset I think all of the above

00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:08.850
and so what I'm wondering is like you

00:57:08.850 --> 00:57:11.160
know your your reason and then the

00:57:11.160 --> 00:57:12.870
emotion and the reason what do you make

00:57:12.870 --> 00:57:14.490
of that emotion that emotional response

00:57:14.490 --> 00:57:15.810
because I don't think that's what you're

00:57:15.810 --> 00:57:18.570
necessarily going for oh no I don't I'm

00:57:18.570 --> 00:57:20.310
this is this concept that you're

00:57:20.310 --> 00:57:25.350
describing to me is new to me I I mean I

00:57:25.350 --> 00:57:28.770
I have friends and like friends parents

00:57:28.770 --> 00:57:30.900
in particular who say I can't watch you

00:57:30.900 --> 00:57:33.950
at night because then I can't go to bed

00:57:33.950 --> 00:57:35.430
sorry I got it

00:57:35.430 --> 00:57:37.950
and so I listen in the morning or watch

00:57:37.950 --> 00:57:39.240
in the morning because it's easier for

00:57:39.240 --> 00:57:42.510
me and that I just thought that's you

00:57:42.510 --> 00:57:44.340
know like I can't have chocolate after

00:57:44.340 --> 00:57:49.860
5:00 was a constitutional thing I didn't

00:57:49.860 --> 00:57:52.560
know it was a widespread phenomenon

00:57:52.560 --> 00:57:54.450
she was saying that I don't know I mean

00:57:54.450 --> 00:58:00.690
I am how do I say this I I am a crier I

00:58:00.690 --> 00:58:03.770
am a person who easily I just I've

00:58:03.770 --> 00:58:05.820
either leak ride whenever I hear the

00:58:05.820 --> 00:58:08.490
national anthem I cry whenever I take

00:58:08.490 --> 00:58:10.260
the subway if somebody is busking in the

00:58:10.260 --> 00:58:11.840
subway even if they're terrible

00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:16.080
immediately waterworks I just like that

00:58:16.080 --> 00:58:20.040
and in that way I sometimes show emotion

00:58:20.040 --> 00:58:22.950
on TV without wanting to because I can't

00:58:22.950 --> 00:58:24.510
control it I mean I have little tricks

00:58:24.510 --> 00:58:25.950
and stuff but I can't really control it

00:58:25.950 --> 00:58:28.650
but aside from that being an easy crier

00:58:28.650 --> 00:58:32.640
I'm not that emotional a person and I

00:58:32.640 --> 00:58:35.850
don't think it helps me convey the stuff

00:58:35.850 --> 00:58:38.220
that I want to convey in the show to

00:58:38.220 --> 00:58:41.280
yell it or to have a fight with somebody

00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:44.310
about it or to you know pound the table

00:58:44.310 --> 00:58:45.600
I mean I know there's a little bit of

00:58:45.600 --> 00:58:46.980
that because sometimes I get a little

00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:48.990
wound up in what I'm doing but I I

00:58:48.990 --> 00:58:50.970
mostly I'm trying to convey information

00:58:50.970 --> 00:58:53.250
and so to the extent that what that is

00:58:53.250 --> 00:58:55.740
doing is creating a motion I have no

00:58:55.740 --> 00:58:58.260
idea what to do with that I don't I'm

00:58:58.260 --> 00:59:07.230
not I'm not trying to upset you I am

00:59:07.230 --> 00:59:08.970
totally happy okay

00:59:08.970 --> 00:59:10.230
okay I want to ask you another question

00:59:10.230 --> 00:59:12.690
about you you know you blend this like

00:59:12.690 --> 00:59:16.680
incredible wonkish attention to detail

00:59:16.680 --> 00:59:19.920
with this the satirist sense of you know

00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:22.080
the big picture and like weaving the

00:59:22.080 --> 00:59:25.770
story together and doing it with all

00:59:25.770 --> 00:59:30.150
this wit and glee and you know just

00:59:30.150 --> 00:59:32.040
energy it's really remarkable to watch

00:59:32.040 --> 00:59:34.260
and so you did a PhD in political

00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:37.080
science which I assume a place right on

00:59:37.080 --> 00:59:41.490
then steered poli-sci grad school

00:59:41.490 --> 00:59:45.690
you are a certified wok but we're about

00:59:45.690 --> 00:59:47.640
what about that storytelling craft and

00:59:47.640 --> 00:59:49.170
that biting wit you have that you're so

00:59:49.170 --> 00:59:51.060
famous for and that does draw people

00:59:51.060 --> 00:59:52.800
into you know I think that's part of why

00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:54.720
they get so emotionally engaged with you

00:59:54.720 --> 00:59:56.849
where did that come from is that is

00:59:56.849 --> 00:59:58.859
there was it always part of your

00:59:58.859 --> 01:00:01.380
worldview or is there a person or an

01:00:01.380 --> 01:00:03.510
experience you can point to that that

01:00:03.510 --> 01:00:06.570
brought that to you I don't know I mean

01:00:06.570 --> 01:00:09.930
I never intended to have this kind of a

01:00:09.930 --> 01:00:11.910
career you know like I wasn't aiming at

01:00:11.910 --> 01:00:14.339
media certainly I thought I was going to

01:00:14.339 --> 01:00:18.089
be an activist and so I pursued my

01:00:18.089 --> 01:00:21.000
academic career as sort of trying to

01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:24.480
build myself a good toolkit for being a

01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:27.690
better activist I never really I've

01:00:27.690 --> 01:00:28.830
never really been a person who could

01:00:28.830 --> 01:00:30.780
imagine my life very far into the future

01:00:30.780 --> 01:00:35.490
which is some subject for therapy and we

01:00:35.490 --> 01:00:38.910
could do it here but great time these

01:00:38.910 --> 01:00:41.010
chairs are coming it's do you mind if I

01:00:41.010 --> 01:00:45.810
lie down nicely and so I was sort of

01:00:45.810 --> 01:00:47.970
doing that in a kind of utilitarian way

01:00:47.970 --> 01:00:50.190
trying as an activist I felt like my

01:00:50.190 --> 01:00:51.869
what I needed to be able to do was

01:00:51.869 --> 01:00:53.250
understand the field in which I was

01:00:53.250 --> 01:00:55.830
working I was an AIDS activist and then

01:00:55.830 --> 01:00:57.330
ultimately became a prison reform

01:00:57.330 --> 01:00:58.530
activists and those things were

01:00:58.530 --> 01:01:01.140
connected and so I needed to understand

01:01:01.140 --> 01:01:02.460
the field in which I was operating I

01:01:02.460 --> 01:01:04.140
needed to be able to speak with lots of

01:01:04.140 --> 01:01:06.450
different people in order to receive

01:01:06.450 --> 01:01:08.070
information from experts in that field

01:01:08.070 --> 01:01:09.630
and then I needed to be able to

01:01:09.630 --> 01:01:13.410
synthesize the political aims of what I

01:01:13.410 --> 01:01:16.080
was doing into a story that would make

01:01:16.080 --> 01:01:17.930
the decision-maker change their mind and

01:01:17.930 --> 01:01:21.240
so like I did public policy as my

01:01:21.240 --> 01:01:23.580
undergraduate degree with a focus on

01:01:23.580 --> 01:01:24.960
healthcare because I was an AIDS

01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:26.339
activist and I felt like I needed that

01:01:26.339 --> 01:01:28.500
but I did a essentially a minor like an

01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:31.440
honors thing in in ethics which was the

01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:33.089
way that at the school I went to that's

01:01:33.089 --> 01:01:35.640
the way you minor in philosophy and the

01:01:35.640 --> 01:01:36.990
reason I wanted to do philosophy is

01:01:36.990 --> 01:01:38.250
because I felt like I wanted to be

01:01:38.250 --> 01:01:41.490
better at making arguments and when it

01:01:41.490 --> 01:01:45.060
came to doing a doctoral dissertation I

01:01:45.060 --> 01:01:47.599
had done a really heavily quantitative

01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:50.190
undergraduate degree I did a lot of

01:01:50.190 --> 01:01:52.080
statistics and stuff just that was again

01:01:52.080 --> 01:01:53.820
trying to become more literate in ways

01:01:53.820 --> 01:01:54.180
that I

01:01:54.180 --> 01:01:55.770
would help me make better arguments and

01:01:55.770 --> 01:01:57.299
be better at what I was trying to do and

01:01:57.299 --> 01:01:59.369
so I wanted to kind of balance that

01:01:59.369 --> 01:02:02.010
another way and and tell a big story

01:02:02.010 --> 01:02:04.349
about social movements and social change

01:02:04.349 --> 01:02:05.339
and that's what I did my doctoral

01:02:05.339 --> 01:02:06.990
dissertation on so much it's all about

01:02:06.990 --> 01:02:08.640
like just trying to get the next thing

01:02:08.640 --> 01:02:11.279
done that I wanted to do but I ended up

01:02:11.279 --> 01:02:14.130
at the end of it having been an activist

01:02:14.130 --> 01:02:16.589
from the time that I was 16 and having

01:02:16.589 --> 01:02:18.420
been trained in argument and public

01:02:18.420 --> 01:02:21.390
policy in the mean time and that ended

01:02:21.390 --> 01:02:24.180
up unbeknownst to me being a good

01:02:24.180 --> 01:02:25.589
background for doing the kind of work

01:02:25.589 --> 01:02:27.059
that I do now but it wasn't what I was

01:02:27.059 --> 01:02:30.799
aiming at and in terms of being goofy I

01:02:30.799 --> 01:02:38.180
think I I mean I think I'm just immature

01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.539
I mean I mean it literally I am immature

01:02:42.539 --> 01:02:45.869
but I don't just mean it like making fun

01:02:45.869 --> 01:02:47.849
of myself I think that I like have an

01:02:47.849 --> 01:02:52.020
eight-year-old sense of humor and so

01:02:52.020 --> 01:02:54.599
like the there's always going to be like

01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:55.980
oh like there's going to be a fart joke

01:02:55.980 --> 01:02:58.410
somewhere you know there's gonna be like

01:02:58.410 --> 01:02:59.819
I had to tell them like doubles

01:02:59.819 --> 01:03:03.869
excrement slays me like I'm kind of

01:03:03.869 --> 01:03:09.569
eight and so I that's how I think and if

01:03:09.569 --> 01:03:11.609
that's the way it comes out I think it

01:03:11.609 --> 01:03:12.809
works for some people it doesn't work

01:03:12.809 --> 01:03:15.150
for other people I mean there's a lot of

01:03:15.150 --> 01:03:16.799
joking around in the book even though

01:03:16.799 --> 01:03:18.960
this is a very serious oh it made me

01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:22.289
laugh out loud it seemed in that right

01:03:22.289 --> 01:03:23.970
so like I wrote a book six or seven

01:03:23.970 --> 01:03:25.470
years ago about the military also had

01:03:25.470 --> 01:03:27.510
lots of jokes and even people who like

01:03:27.510 --> 01:03:30.089
they teach that book at the US Army War

01:03:30.089 --> 01:03:32.849
College Wow right something is I've I've

01:03:32.849 --> 01:03:34.440
lectured on the book at West Point it's

01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:36.180
like it's great but like you'll talk to

01:03:36.180 --> 01:03:37.770
somebody who's like really into the

01:03:37.770 --> 01:03:39.420
Abrams doctrine and wants to talk about

01:03:39.420 --> 01:03:42.270
Selective Service in 1974 but they like

01:03:42.270 --> 01:03:44.460
are super mad about the jokes I made

01:03:44.460 --> 01:03:47.880
about ed Meese I'm like looking at me I

01:03:47.880 --> 01:03:50.520
am going to make jokes about him

01:03:50.520 --> 01:03:52.320
works for some people it works as

01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:53.760
leavening for some people but I think it

01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:55.980
also it's like iron filings in the dip

01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:57.920
for other people like it just doesn't

01:03:57.920 --> 01:04:01.340
acquired taste

01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:10.130
speaking of acquired taste

01:04:10.130 --> 01:04:12.540
I'm so good it's not speaking of iron

01:04:12.540 --> 01:04:13.130
filings

01:04:13.130 --> 01:04:16.230
speaking of acquired taste so as in you

01:04:16.230 --> 01:04:17.880
have an 8-year old sense of humor but

01:04:17.880 --> 01:04:19.890
you are very adult when it comes to your

01:04:19.890 --> 01:04:21.600
beverages of choice

01:04:21.600 --> 01:04:23.760
I have never interviewed anyone who got

01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:25.800
so many questions about cocktails oh

01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:26.850
good

01:04:26.850 --> 01:04:28.680
and Justin we can quickly digress a

01:04:28.680 --> 01:04:31.980
woman named Jody Masterton Masterson hey

01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:36.180
Jody you are very creative she suggested

01:04:36.180 --> 01:04:38.160
this is just a few of a much longer list

01:04:38.160 --> 01:04:40.200
of cocktail names that you might want to

01:04:40.200 --> 01:04:43.110
sip on like belly up to the bar with two

01:04:43.110 --> 01:04:46.610
R's Oh oh nice

01:04:46.670 --> 01:04:56.760
wet your whistle blower cosmopolitan and

01:04:56.760 --> 01:05:00.420
it groans the Leske which was the last

01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:02.369
nigrum Celestia oh very nice

01:05:02.369 --> 01:05:05.340
Celestia but the question I have is from

01:05:05.340 --> 01:05:07.590
John known that last name and he asks

01:05:07.590 --> 01:05:09.270
you what is the secret to a perfect

01:05:09.270 --> 01:05:16.350
martini oh I could go on you know if you

01:05:16.350 --> 01:05:19.730
know drinkers who are like semi-pro that

01:05:19.730 --> 01:05:22.230
when we start talking about like the one

01:05:22.230 --> 01:05:23.910
drink that means a lot to us it actually

01:05:23.910 --> 01:05:27.000
becomes almost a form of bullying like I

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:28.320
have to be careful the way I talk about

01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:30.060
a martini because I come across as such

01:05:30.060 --> 01:05:34.530
a jerk so I'll be to the point vodka is

01:05:34.530 --> 01:05:38.910
not an ingredient in martinis vodka

01:05:38.910 --> 01:05:42.210
vodka isn't in there gin is in there but

01:05:42.210 --> 01:05:43.830
there is another thing that has to be in

01:05:43.830 --> 01:05:45.960
there there has to be vermouth this

01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:47.790
whole thing about like Winston Churchill

01:05:47.790 --> 01:05:49.800
used to glance at the vermouth and then

01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:52.859
exam and then not allow it to touch them

01:05:52.859 --> 01:05:54.900
or there's an atomizer with they're

01:05:54.900 --> 01:05:57.330
supposed to be vermouth dry vermouth yes

01:05:57.330 --> 01:06:00.060
okay and in I think the reason that

01:06:00.060 --> 01:06:00.560
people

01:06:00.560 --> 01:06:02.660
afraid of putting the proper amount of

01:06:02.660 --> 01:06:04.220
dry vermouth in their martinis is

01:06:04.220 --> 01:06:06.110
because somebody once served them

01:06:06.110 --> 01:06:08.300
something they called a martini that was

01:06:08.300 --> 01:06:11.060
accidentally made with vodka vodka mixes

01:06:11.060 --> 01:06:12.920
terribly with vermouth and so of course

01:06:12.920 --> 01:06:15.110
you want a very dry vodka martini

01:06:15.110 --> 01:06:16.520
because what you really want is just a

01:06:16.520 --> 01:06:21.500
glass of vodka if you are going to drink

01:06:21.500 --> 01:06:24.170
a martini it's both gin and a good

01:06:24.170 --> 01:06:26.120
amount like I do like a two-to-one some

01:06:26.120 --> 01:06:29.300
people do a 50/50 gin vermouth with good

01:06:29.300 --> 01:06:31.010
fresh vermouth that is a bottle that you

01:06:31.010 --> 01:06:34.850
didn't open in the Jurassic era it goes

01:06:34.850 --> 01:06:36.740
bad it's not that alcoholic you have to

01:06:36.740 --> 01:06:38.210
keep it in the fridge after you open it

01:06:38.210 --> 01:06:40.270
write the data on the label very

01:06:40.270 --> 01:06:43.370
important and if you like a lemon twist

01:06:43.370 --> 01:06:45.950
or an olive which are the only two

01:06:45.950 --> 01:06:51.020
options you if you have a lemon twist

01:06:51.020 --> 01:06:52.790
you do have the option of putting a

01:06:52.790 --> 01:06:54.950
little bit of orange bitters in your

01:06:54.950 --> 01:06:56.780
martini which does not taste like orange

01:06:56.780 --> 01:06:58.940
but actually counterbalances the lemon

01:06:58.940 --> 01:07:00.260
so you don't have a fruity drink I know

01:07:00.260 --> 01:07:01.850
it sounds counterintuitive but it works

01:07:01.850 --> 01:07:04.520
but you can't put orange bitters in your

01:07:04.520 --> 01:07:06.110
martini if you're using an olive because

01:07:06.110 --> 01:07:08.660
that's weird if you do use an olive it

01:07:08.660 --> 01:07:11.510
has to be a green olive and it can have

01:07:11.510 --> 01:07:13.400
a pimento if you want although it's not

01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:15.170
supposed to it can't have anything else

01:07:15.170 --> 01:07:19.040
inside it that's not a pimento and you

01:07:19.040 --> 01:07:22.010
have to stir it and it can't be more

01:07:22.010 --> 01:07:24.740
than three and a half ounces any other

01:07:24.740 --> 01:07:27.250
questions

01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:34.410
very nice things I could say about it

01:07:34.410 --> 01:07:36.240
but I'll try to stop now maybe the next

01:07:36.240 --> 01:07:38.490
book yeah I could write a whole book

01:07:38.490 --> 01:07:39.900
just about how about whether in my

01:07:39.900 --> 01:07:41.490
opinion I think that sounds a wonderful

01:07:41.490 --> 01:07:45.539
I I want to shift gears quite a bit

01:07:45.539 --> 01:07:49.859
Amanda Bolton says this is an audience

01:07:49.859 --> 01:07:51.690
question president Trump frequently

01:07:51.690 --> 01:07:53.700
postures and media's and adversary to

01:07:53.700 --> 01:07:55.410
truth and freedom how does that change

01:07:55.410 --> 01:07:57.539
the way you engage with the news or how

01:07:57.539 --> 01:07:59.160
you present the news that's a very good

01:07:59.160 --> 01:08:03.270
question all presidents hate the media

01:08:03.270 --> 01:08:06.089
and all presidents feel like they are

01:08:06.089 --> 01:08:08.130
uniquely horribly treated by the media

01:08:08.130 --> 01:08:10.349
and maybe they're right

01:08:10.349 --> 01:08:13.200
I mean maybe as we evolved as a country

01:08:13.200 --> 01:08:15.510
we're meaner to each successive

01:08:15.510 --> 01:08:17.880
president maybe I mean Who am I to say

01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:19.859
that they have distorted perspective but

01:08:19.859 --> 01:08:21.330
there is something different going on

01:08:21.330 --> 01:08:25.770
with this president that is about trying

01:08:25.770 --> 01:08:30.390
to deal Ajith amis the existence of

01:08:30.390 --> 01:08:32.310
journalism in the United States writ

01:08:32.310 --> 01:08:35.219
large the only other politician I know

01:08:35.219 --> 01:08:38.130
who's ever tried this on for size was my

01:08:38.130 --> 01:08:42.960
boyfriend Spiro Agnew which is part of

01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:44.160
the reason that I wanted to do that

01:08:44.160 --> 01:08:50.939
bagman podcast I did because I heard so

01:08:50.939 --> 01:08:52.350
I went and listened to some of his

01:08:52.350 --> 01:08:54.060
speeches where I mean he's like he's

01:08:54.060 --> 01:08:55.620
famous for this nattering nabobs of

01:08:55.620 --> 01:08:57.299
negativism

01:08:57.299 --> 01:09:00.120
his real speeches where he attacked the

01:09:00.120 --> 01:09:02.219
press and where he attacked the Justice

01:09:02.219 --> 01:09:03.660
Department and the prosecutors who were

01:09:03.660 --> 01:09:06.359
investigating him were like trump 1.0

01:09:06.359 --> 01:09:09.899
really really and it was seen at the

01:09:09.899 --> 01:09:13.319
time as profoundly dangerous and the way

01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:15.569
that he attacked the media was

01:09:15.569 --> 01:09:20.719
particularly sort of had a had a barely

01:09:20.719 --> 01:09:24.000
camouflaged anti-semitic implication

01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:26.160
that he would talk about the media and

01:09:26.160 --> 01:09:28.589
the elites in a way that really he was

01:09:28.589 --> 01:09:30.000
making it quite clear that it was about

01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:31.679
the Jews and the Jews controlling

01:09:31.679 --> 01:09:33.089
everything and the Jews being out to get

01:09:33.089 --> 01:09:36.029
him and Agnew after he resigned the vice

01:09:36.029 --> 01:09:37.859
presidency ultimately would go on to be

01:09:37.859 --> 01:09:39.779
basically an international anti-semite

01:09:39.779 --> 01:09:42.670
for hire where he would

01:09:42.670 --> 01:09:45.729
in solicit income for an income from

01:09:45.729 --> 01:09:48.100
foreign governments that wanted to stir

01:09:48.100 --> 01:09:50.140
up anger against American Jews literally

01:09:50.140 --> 01:09:52.569
that's what he did to make money and so

01:09:52.569 --> 01:09:56.230
I feel like Agnew's ghost helps us

01:09:56.230 --> 01:10:01.450
understand how malignant this is and how

01:10:01.450 --> 01:10:07.810
close it is to really really dark even

01:10:07.810 --> 01:10:12.760
fistic aims and I also can see that it's

01:10:12.760 --> 01:10:14.020
an offshoot of what other presidents

01:10:14.020 --> 01:10:15.160
have done in terms of their complaining

01:10:15.160 --> 01:10:17.350
and so recognizing that this could

01:10:17.350 --> 01:10:21.580
curdle very badly and it's it's it edges

01:10:21.580 --> 01:10:23.860
up against that and I see that I also

01:10:23.860 --> 01:10:27.370
feel like the solution to it is not to

01:10:27.370 --> 01:10:30.220
get as serious about it but rather to

01:10:30.220 --> 01:10:34.990
try to brush it off a little bit and in

01:10:34.990 --> 01:10:38.080
my own life part of what it means is

01:10:38.080 --> 01:10:39.910
that I sort of refused to play these

01:10:39.910 --> 01:10:41.590
games where they try to turn us in the

01:10:41.590 --> 01:10:43.960
media against each other I know that

01:10:43.960 --> 01:10:45.640
people have different views about how

01:10:45.640 --> 01:10:47.500
best to approach this presidency and how

01:10:47.500 --> 01:10:49.390
best to approach journalism and some

01:10:49.390 --> 01:10:51.070
people think cable news is evil and some

01:10:51.070 --> 01:10:52.690
people are mad at the New York Times and

01:10:52.690 --> 01:10:54.670
some people think that the you know Jeff

01:10:54.670 --> 01:10:56.470
Bezos iteration of the Washington Post

01:10:56.470 --> 01:10:58.060
means a thing and some people really

01:10:58.060 --> 01:11:00.370
hate Fox News even the news side of Fox

01:11:00.370 --> 01:11:03.670
News inside and I I feel like at this

01:11:03.670 --> 01:11:06.820
point we're if we're in the if we're in

01:11:06.820 --> 01:11:08.650
the news business and we're in the

01:11:08.650 --> 01:11:10.270
journalism business then we are all on

01:11:10.270 --> 01:11:11.860
the same side and even the people who

01:11:11.860 --> 01:11:18.940
hate me I will love back and so it's a

01:11:18.940 --> 01:11:20.230
it's I mean

01:11:20.230 --> 01:11:22.930
if is everybody here subscribed to their

01:11:22.930 --> 01:11:25.360
local public radio station do you pay

01:11:25.360 --> 01:11:27.610
money if you're look pay money to your

01:11:27.610 --> 01:11:28.870
local public radio station you have a

01:11:28.870 --> 01:11:30.820
great public radio here you really do

01:11:30.820 --> 01:11:32.800
and it needs and to support local

01:11:32.800 --> 01:11:34.720
reporting the best thing you can do for

01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:36.700
journalism in your country I don't know

01:11:36.700 --> 01:11:37.960
what's going on at Chicago unless

01:11:37.960 --> 01:11:40.060
they're Chicago reporters reporting it

01:11:40.060 --> 01:11:41.530
in a way that I can pick up in New York

01:11:41.530 --> 01:11:43.360
and make into a national story right I

01:11:43.360 --> 01:11:44.560
wouldn't have took I wouldn't have had

01:11:44.560 --> 01:11:46.330
the Flint water story had there not been

01:11:46.330 --> 01:11:48.340
local reporters working in Michigan and

01:11:48.340 --> 01:11:49.650
Clinton telling that

01:11:49.650 --> 01:11:52.709
like you can't survive with the national

01:11:52.709 --> 01:11:53.999
media even if it's a great national

01:11:53.999 --> 01:11:56.010
media that you like have to support

01:11:56.010 --> 01:11:58.590
local local journalism and you need to

01:11:58.590 --> 01:12:01.260
support journalism as a craft I don't

01:12:01.260 --> 01:12:04.380
know if in if your kid or if you've got

01:12:04.380 --> 01:12:07.320
kids or grandkids who are in middle

01:12:07.320 --> 01:12:09.360
school and high school right now but do

01:12:09.360 --> 01:12:12.119
you know if at the middle school or high

01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:15.269
school that attends to your family do

01:12:15.269 --> 01:12:17.150
you know if they've got a student paper

01:12:17.150 --> 01:12:19.920
if they don't have a student paper would

01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:21.449
you consider getting together with some

01:12:21.449 --> 01:12:24.209
of your friends and endowing one if

01:12:24.209 --> 01:12:26.280
they're not if they've got that would

01:12:26.280 --> 01:12:29.880
you consider endowing proto television

01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:33.119
journalism podcast for the jet for the

01:12:33.119 --> 01:12:34.650
journalism class and the 6th grade at

01:12:34.650 --> 01:12:36.420
your local middle school I mean we need

01:12:36.420 --> 01:12:39.090
to grow investigative reporters by the

01:12:39.090 --> 01:12:41.429
bushel in this country for the sake of

01:12:41.429 --> 01:12:45.479
our democracy we were we were talking

01:12:45.479 --> 01:12:48.269
backstage and I get nutrients need two

01:12:48.269 --> 01:12:49.800
more questions in concern now I gotta

01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:51.479
let you go I'm sorry I've talked so long

01:12:51.479 --> 01:12:55.320
you're amazing no apologies this is kind

01:12:55.320 --> 01:12:56.550
of a great time for journalism we were

01:12:56.550 --> 01:12:59.489
talking about that your book which not

01:12:59.489 --> 01:13:02.010
only paints this incredible picture of

01:13:02.010 --> 01:13:04.409
the the the threat of the oil and gas

01:13:04.409 --> 01:13:06.360
industry and why we need to think about

01:13:06.360 --> 01:13:09.150
this and become closer to it but the

01:13:09.150 --> 01:13:10.469
number of excellent reporters

01:13:10.469 --> 01:13:12.239
represented in it whose work you bring

01:13:12.239 --> 01:13:14.369
back to life if we feel like we don't

01:13:14.369 --> 01:13:16.229
have access to useful information that's

01:13:16.229 --> 01:13:17.729
really not the case there's so many

01:13:17.729 --> 01:13:20.670
amazing reporters we were talking in

01:13:20.670 --> 01:13:23.219
backstage about she said by Jody Kanter

01:13:23.219 --> 01:13:24.719
Megan Chui who are joining us next

01:13:24.719 --> 01:13:27.179
Tuesday I'm very excited and their book

01:13:27.179 --> 01:13:29.610
and then Ronin Pharaohs catch and kill

01:13:29.610 --> 01:13:31.889
now these are two books that talk about

01:13:31.889 --> 01:13:34.619
the media in different ways she said is

01:13:34.619 --> 01:13:36.869
about the the force of the New York

01:13:36.869 --> 01:13:38.820
Times and how that helped them carry

01:13:38.820 --> 01:13:41.190
that investigation for it gave them a

01:13:41.190 --> 01:13:43.289
certain credibility pharaoh has a

01:13:43.289 --> 01:13:45.090
different experience he says the media

01:13:45.090 --> 01:13:48.590
company MSNBC NBC that he worked with in

01:13:48.590 --> 01:13:51.989
stymied him tried to shut down and I'm

01:13:51.989 --> 01:13:54.840
wondering given that there are both

01:13:54.840 --> 01:13:57.160
books about me too

01:13:57.160 --> 01:13:59.110
and given that you've just thought a lot

01:13:59.110 --> 01:14:02.020
about corporate responsibility visa vie

01:14:02.020 --> 01:14:05.530
the oil gas industry and the ways in

01:14:05.530 --> 01:14:07.660
which governance can get twisted with

01:14:07.660 --> 01:14:09.190
sort of trying to serve shareholder

01:14:09.190 --> 01:14:11.440
values mm-hmm what do you think the role

01:14:11.440 --> 01:14:13.570
of corporate responsibility is in

01:14:13.570 --> 01:14:19.840
relationship to me to boy I mean first

01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:21.970
of all I think that media companies are

01:14:21.970 --> 01:14:25.090
companies and companies need to be

01:14:25.090 --> 01:14:28.660
internally improving on these issues

01:14:28.660 --> 01:14:31.240
right that the ways of doing business in

01:14:31.240 --> 01:14:32.890
the media business and in lots of other

01:14:32.890 --> 01:14:36.250
big business have to change and when

01:14:36.250 --> 01:14:38.200
there is a reckoning in these things the

01:14:38.200 --> 01:14:39.340
companies need to recognize that

01:14:39.340 --> 01:14:41.470
evolution and not resistance is the way

01:14:41.470 --> 01:14:45.100
to deal with those things and so I think

01:14:45.100 --> 01:14:47.680
first and foremost media companies need

01:14:47.680 --> 01:14:49.000
to be seen as companies that need to do

01:14:49.000 --> 01:14:52.020
their own work there in terms of the

01:14:52.020 --> 01:14:55.390
reporting around me to stuff I mean the

01:14:55.390 --> 01:14:57.310
to the extent that there are gatekeepers

01:14:57.310 --> 01:14:59.050
for this kind of stuff if the

01:14:59.050 --> 01:15:00.610
gatekeepers are compromised the stories

01:15:00.610 --> 01:15:02.320
aren't going to get out but that just

01:15:02.320 --> 01:15:04.690
creates I mean Ronan's book right as far

01:15:04.690 --> 01:15:08.680
as I understand it is a story that he

01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:10.600
was chasing which is about Weinstein and

01:15:10.600 --> 01:15:12.490
then the other story that he discovered

01:15:12.490 --> 01:15:15.130
along the way when he started to

01:15:15.130 --> 01:15:16.870
investigate what was keeping him from

01:15:16.870 --> 01:15:18.760
getting the story about Weinstein and

01:15:18.760 --> 01:15:21.730
the proper outcome of that process is

01:15:21.730 --> 01:15:24.100
that he is able in the end to tell both

01:15:24.100 --> 01:15:25.900
stories one of those stories who want to

01:15:25.900 --> 01:15:27.580
pull out surprised for and one of them

01:15:27.580 --> 01:15:28.540
he's about to have a number one

01:15:28.540 --> 01:15:29.950
best-selling book that's gonna knock me

01:15:29.950 --> 01:15:34.690
off the charts and so I mean I think

01:15:34.690 --> 01:15:37.660
I've read Megan and Jodi's book I've not

01:15:37.660 --> 01:15:39.820
read Megan Ronan's book cause it's not

01:15:39.820 --> 01:15:43.560
out but I one of the things that I am

01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:48.190
incredibly buoyed by for both of them is

01:15:48.190 --> 01:15:50.290
that I think those books are gonna make

01:15:50.290 --> 01:15:52.120
people who read them in college decide

01:15:52.120 --> 01:15:54.280
to go to journalism school because it is

01:15:54.280 --> 01:15:57.190
about the nobility and bravery and civic

01:15:57.190 --> 01:15:59.290
mindedness and rigor of journalism done

01:15:59.290 --> 01:16:01.750
well and it's as exciting as hell I mean

01:16:01.750 --> 01:16:05.500
it really really is and so that's what

01:16:05.500 --> 01:16:08.010
welcoming

01:16:08.970 --> 01:16:12.490
so speaking of nobility and bravery and

01:16:12.490 --> 01:16:14.350
civic mindedness and this is the last

01:16:14.350 --> 01:16:18.550
question I hate love you to stay for an

01:16:18.550 --> 01:16:22.060
hour way back in 2010 in regard to fake

01:16:22.060 --> 01:16:24.040
politics and the dearth of political

01:16:24.040 --> 01:16:26.440
facts you said on your show let's argue

01:16:26.440 --> 01:16:28.630
let's have the great American debate

01:16:28.630 --> 01:16:30.430
about the role of government and the

01:16:30.430 --> 01:16:32.560
best policies for the country it's fun

01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:35.620
it's citizenship its activism it makes

01:16:35.620 --> 01:16:37.210
the country better when we have those

01:16:37.210 --> 01:16:39.460
debates and your country needs you it

01:16:39.460 --> 01:16:42.880
needs all of you it needs all of us so

01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:45.220
if we armed with one of your fabulous

01:16:45.220 --> 01:16:48.670
martinis take those hard marching orders

01:16:48.670 --> 01:16:50.920
how do we leave tonight and start that

01:16:50.920 --> 01:16:53.890
debate Wow

01:16:53.890 --> 01:16:59.100
I would I would say a couple of things I

01:16:59.100 --> 01:17:02.740
do I do I am not a particularly green

01:17:02.740 --> 01:17:04.660
person like I don't come from an

01:17:04.660 --> 01:17:07.180
environmental background my partner's

01:17:07.180 --> 01:17:08.740
very green and like kind of tried to

01:17:08.740 --> 01:17:10.510
make our lives more sustainable and

01:17:10.510 --> 01:17:12.400
everything and I just I'm not really

01:17:12.400 --> 01:17:13.690
wired that way and I'm trying to get

01:17:13.690 --> 01:17:15.460
better having written this book about

01:17:15.460 --> 01:17:17.530
the oil and gas industry and the way it

01:17:17.530 --> 01:17:21.190
is corrosive toward our ability to make

01:17:21.190 --> 01:17:24.370
good democratic decisions now on the way

01:17:24.370 --> 01:17:26.860
toward the climate apocalypse you think

01:17:26.860 --> 01:17:29.140
that would motivate me to be like you

01:17:29.140 --> 01:17:31.890
know like taking a sailboat everywhere

01:17:31.890 --> 01:17:34.990
and I'm I'm not I'm intellectually there

01:17:34.990 --> 01:17:37.270
but my life hasn't changed to make those

01:17:37.270 --> 01:17:38.980
accounts and so I feel you know

01:17:38.980 --> 01:17:41.020
embarrassed about that and humble about

01:17:41.020 --> 01:17:43.060
that but I also feel like it's worth

01:17:43.060 --> 01:17:46.900
being real about that and we don't we're

01:17:46.900 --> 01:17:48.370
not all going to become full-time

01:17:48.370 --> 01:17:51.580
activists and we're not all going to run

01:17:51.580 --> 01:17:54.210
for office and we're not all going to

01:17:54.210 --> 01:17:58.480
lead a movement but we can all do

01:17:58.480 --> 01:18:00.610
something more than we are already doing

01:18:00.610 --> 01:18:04.260
and if

01:18:04.449 --> 01:18:08.320
you are incredibly motivated by the

01:18:08.320 --> 01:18:11.019
president if you have if you feel like

01:18:11.019 --> 01:18:13.360
president Trump is a motivating force

01:18:13.360 --> 01:18:14.769
like nothing you've ever had in your

01:18:14.769 --> 01:18:18.969
life the what in your life shows that if

01:18:18.969 --> 01:18:23.349
you want him out of office or if your

01:18:23.349 --> 01:18:25.179
incredible supporter of President Trump

01:18:25.179 --> 01:18:26.320
and you really want him to stay in

01:18:26.320 --> 01:18:28.149
office what are you doing to make that

01:18:28.149 --> 01:18:32.320
happen this is a time when I think we

01:18:32.320 --> 01:18:33.820
have all started to realize that you

01:18:33.820 --> 01:18:36.459
can't necessarily know what the thing is

01:18:36.459 --> 01:18:38.979
that's gonna make the difference in the

01:18:38.979 --> 01:18:39.489
world

01:18:39.489 --> 01:18:41.469
you can't know what's gonna inspire

01:18:41.469 --> 01:18:43.659
people right I mean these viral moments

01:18:43.659 --> 01:18:45.760
that spread on social media of regular

01:18:45.760 --> 01:18:47.559
people doing things on the middle of a

01:18:47.559 --> 01:18:49.059
day when they woke up that morning and

01:18:49.059 --> 01:18:50.199
thought it was gonna be a day like no

01:18:50.199 --> 01:18:51.699
other and they ended up doing something

01:18:51.699 --> 01:18:53.499
that changed the conversation of the

01:18:53.499 --> 01:18:55.269
country of 300 million people for a week

01:18:55.269 --> 01:18:58.179
you know we're in a position right now

01:18:58.179 --> 01:19:00.489
where our ability as individual citizens

01:19:00.489 --> 01:19:03.219
to do stuff gives us a new form of

01:19:03.219 --> 01:19:06.070
responsibility and to the extent that

01:19:06.070 --> 01:19:09.099
the climate matters to you are you doing

01:19:09.099 --> 01:19:10.749
other kind of political work and can you

01:19:10.749 --> 01:19:12.669
factor climate into that to the extent

01:19:12.669 --> 01:19:14.110
that the president matters to you or

01:19:14.110 --> 01:19:15.939
this next election matters to you what

01:19:15.939 --> 01:19:18.459
are you doing not just to follow it on

01:19:18.459 --> 01:19:20.559
TV but to actually participate try to

01:19:20.559 --> 01:19:22.209
try as much as you can to change the

01:19:22.209 --> 01:19:23.320
outcome and the way that you want it to

01:19:23.320 --> 01:19:27.969
go I just think this is just close are

01:19:27.969 --> 01:19:30.579
saying this having all of you guys here

01:19:30.579 --> 01:19:33.760
in person to me is the reason I was so

01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:34.840
like nervous and jittery at the

01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:37.059
beginning is because we spend all of our

01:19:37.059 --> 01:19:39.880
times with our screens on right I mean

01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:41.559
you guys see me behind the TV screen I

01:19:41.559 --> 01:19:43.749
know but we also spend all of our times

01:19:43.749 --> 01:19:44.919
with our through all of our time with

01:19:44.919 --> 01:19:46.269
our phones and with our computer screens

01:19:46.269 --> 01:19:48.010
and that's so much the way that we

01:19:48.010 --> 01:19:49.899
understand the mediated world right now

01:19:49.899 --> 01:19:52.599
but none of you are doing that right now

01:19:52.599 --> 01:19:54.309
you're all here in person you came out

01:19:54.309 --> 01:19:57.820
here bodily to see me in person to be

01:19:57.820 --> 01:19:59.709
among all of these other thousands of

01:19:59.709 --> 01:20:01.809
you who came out to do this in person to

01:20:01.809 --> 01:20:04.570
be at a live event to imbibe words to

01:20:04.570 --> 01:20:06.579
hear a conversation to have new thoughts

01:20:06.579 --> 01:20:08.139
and to be around your fellow man while

01:20:08.139 --> 01:20:10.209
doing it and that is something that you

01:20:10.209 --> 01:20:12.429
don't have to do but you did it and

01:20:12.429 --> 01:20:14.320
you're here and it means the world to me

01:20:14.320 --> 01:20:15.959
and to me

01:20:15.959 --> 01:20:17.999
when we are willing to show up someplace

01:20:17.999 --> 01:20:19.650
when we were actually willing to bodily

01:20:19.650 --> 01:20:22.800
be there it's transformative not only

01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:24.709
potentially for the world but for us and

01:20:24.709 --> 01:20:28.619
so I just it means a lot for me to see

01:20:28.619 --> 01:20:29.999
you guys right now and I would just say

01:20:29.999 --> 01:20:32.010
to do your own inventory in terms of

01:20:32.010 --> 01:20:33.780
what matters to you and what you can

01:20:33.780 --> 01:20:35.340
maximize in your life in terms of what

01:20:35.340 --> 01:20:38.150
you're doing to bring that about

01:20:43.219 --> 01:20:46.949
what an awesome love to end on a chill

01:20:46.949 --> 01:20:48.460
that Oh

01:20:48.460 --> 01:20:51.789
[Applause]

01:20:52.060 --> 01:20:58.250
I'm sorry about your dating thing it was

01:20:58.250 --> 01:20:59.250
a good news a good sign

01:20:59.250 --> 01:21:09.250
[Applause]

01:21:09.570 --> 01:21:11.630
you