[Applause]
[Laughter]
[Rachel Maddow] Wow thank you all so much for coming
[Applause]
Wow
Did he say 4,000 people are here?
[Laughs] This is crazy
[from audience] We love you Rachel [RM ]I love you too, thank you.
Alright I'm sorry about the whole crutches thing
I know it's melodramatic, right?
It's a very boring story or I would tell it
Thank you all so much for being here.
This is an overwhelming number of humans
I am just incredibly honored that you're all here
I do a show on TV and I know that there are people watching
but I can't see them and so this is coming face to face
with something that I really try never to think about,
which is that a lot of people know what I do
including the screw-ups every day.
So as a way to try to minimize the emotion
I am actually going to change glasses, so that with these glasses on
I will not be able to see any of you which will make this easier for me.
All right,okay, so I did not set out to write a book
about the oil and gas industry
And I thought: for sure, if I did, no one would want to read it.
and then this weird thing happened,
right around the time the book was ready to come out,
which is that the president started getting impeached
and [cheers and applause] I didn't do it but I'll take the applause
and the the thing that really surprised me
is that this book is coming out and it's kind of about the thing
for which the president is being impeached .
And so I had planned -- when I was going to go around
and talk about the book and do events like this --
that I would read like the funny section of the book.
There's a section I really like that I think is kind of funny,
that's about walruses
and I was like I go to Chicago, It's going to be this big room
that's gonna slay, they're gonna love the walruses thing
because the president is now being impeached, though,
for something that has to do with the thesis of this book
I kind of feel like I should read from that part of the book:
just - in part because I'm really looking forward to this conversation with Allison
and some of your guys' questions and I feel like maybe
this would be kind of a good predicate because I have a feeling
there might be some appetite to talk about that.
And from the applause a second ago, when I said the word impeachment
I think I'm right; so all right so I'll read a little bit and then
I'll just say a little thing and then Allison will come out.
So here we go: the reason I specifically kind of picked out this part tonight
is because of those guys who got arrested a couple days ago,
Lev and Igor, they -- one of the things that was interesting about that --
so they got arrested and charged with trying to
funnel illegal campaign donations,
including illegal foreign-origin Russian campaign donations
to Republican politicians,both to start a weed business, but also to try to get
the US ambassador to Ukraine removed,
as part of a scheme they were working on
with the President's lawyer Rudy Giuliani.
And we know from Mr. Giuliani's own account
that the reason they wanted that ambassador out in Ukraine
was because she was in the way
of their scheme to get Ukraine to provide the president
with dirt he could use against the
Democrats in the 2020 election which is
what he's now being impeached for so it
all kind of ties but I thought it was it
was interesting and like weird given the
book that when those guys got arrested
remember they got arrested at Dulles
Airport and we think they moved up the
indictment so that they could hurry up
the arrests because they had one-way
tickets out of the country and so they
went and they swooped in and they got
them at Dulles and they brought them to
the nearest federal courthouse the
relevant federal courthouse if you're
ever arrested at Dulles Airport trying
to flee the country as news you can use
is the Eastern District of Virginia and
so they've got brought in for their
initial court hearing at the Eastern
District of Virginia and the weirdest
thing happened
they got Paul manna Ford's lawyers what
were they doing there what's your
connection to all this did you guys know
each other before so that was weird
mr. Giuliani also says that one of the
people who he's been working on this
scheme with the one that the president
is going to get impeached for the person
who was giving him strategic advice on
what the president might be able to
solicit from Ukraine to help him in his
next election one of the people he has
been consulting with on this is Paul
Manafort who is the president's campaign
chairman but currently is a federal
inmate and apparently mr. Giuliani has
been working with him so there's the
guys who are in jail now who have just
been arrested and indicted there's the
other guy who's serving a federal prison
sentence those are those are the first
three guys Giuliani is working with on
this scheme and then there's another guy
because when they got arrested at Dulles
they had these one-way tickets and they
were to Frankfurt but they didn't say
that they were planning on staying in
Frankfurt they were going to transit
through there and mr. Giuliani again
always helpful told a reporter for the
Atlantic that where they were going was
Vienna Austria and he was also on his
way to Vienna Austria but they weren't
going together it was just coincidence
and we now know that the reason they
were going to Vienna Austria is because
they were at least either Lev or Igor I
can't tell them apart yet by next week I
will have it one of them was working for
a guy whose name is Dmitri firtash who's
in the book and what has emerged
actually what he merged last night which
is why I'm going to read this today is
Reuters how to report that Dmitri
firtash who is not in prison but is
under arrest and out on bail and
fighting extradition to the United
States where US prosecutors say that
he's an upper echelon associate of
Russian organized crime and he's wanted
on a multibillion-dollar fraud scheme
Dmitri firtash is the one who has
apparently according to Reuters been
financing Lev and Igor in their latest
exploits it may it also is starting to
appear like maybe Dmitri firtash is the
one who was paying Rudi
for this work through love and Igor and
like I said us prosecutors believe he's
an upper echelon associate of Russian
organized crime so I feel like it's all
coming together and the president is
gonna get impeached for this stuff but
all of the people who are apparently
were involved in in all of the people
who were apparently involved in hooking
them up with this are either in jail in
prison or fighting extradition plus Rudy
and so I feel like I have to talk about
this stuff now quick because well once
they're all in jail it's gonna be harder
to get more of the story out so anyway
that's the back that's the background
the immediate news background which I
think makes this relevant all right
the biggest threat Putin had to keep it
BAE was the prospect of strong rich
stable western-oriented democracies in
Russia's near abroad that sort of thing
could not only challenge or constrain
Russia's regional power it could
conceivably the horror inspire the
Russian people themselves leading them
to demand a democratic say in their own
government as well the solution was
simple use Russian natural gas and oil
not only to make money for the Russian
state but also to keep neighboring
countries corrupt and dependent it
solved so many problems it reduced
expectations for democratic governance
and the rule of law in those countries
it created a corruptly empowered
political class invested in preserving
the Russia dependent system that
enriched both its practitioners and
oftentimes also their families it also
created comfortable space for organized
crime to flourish the Russian government
under Vladimir Putin's control has
steadily become more integrated with all
kinds of transnational organized crime
in the former Soviet sphere and not just
because Putin has tended to attract the
kinds of broken nose Tufts who would
otherwise be called henchmen if Putin
hadn't made them so rich
the beauty of putin's ever deepening
kinship with the mob was that it gave
him a whole other
of levers with which to settle problems
and to make problematic people go away
whenever it might be unseemly to wield
the overt powers of the state and so
Putin's team in the Kremlin was
delighted to utilize a man like Dimitri
firtash Dimitri for attaches special
skills could be used to shape Ukraine
more to the Kremlin's liking to turn it
from its increasingly worrying
flirtation with the West with the work
with the European Union with Oh God
maybe even NATO so the Kremlin cut
firtash a sweetheart deal in Ukraine
virata's new company was given the
exclusive right to buy gas from Russia
to sell to Ukraine at a very large
profit about eight hundred million
dollars in clear profit in the year 2007
alone now Ukraine could just as easily
have bought the gas with no middleman
and no markup but Putin wanted both the
middleman and the markup it cost Gazprom
the Russian natural gas company a pretty
penny basically straight out of Russian
government coffers but it was worth it
firtash as well as some of Putin's other
Ukrainian oligarchs would have plenty of
cash to spread around to shape Ukraine
in ways that Putin would appreciate some
of that cash did go back to Moscow as
tribute but even more of it went to prop
up something called the Party of Regions
which meant a whole bunch of that money
passed through or ended up in the
offshore bank accounts of the mercenary
American political operative named Paul
Manafort Paul Manafort helped the Moscow
friendly party of regions when a solid
plurality in the 2006 parliamentary
elections in Ukraine and then he spent
the next few years dinging Ukraine's
strongest opposition leaders including
those from the orange party Prime
Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was a prime
target
Timoshenko was a particular threat to
Moscow's influence in Ukraine she had
made herself the front-runner in the
2010 presidential election by seizing on
that sweetheart gas deal that Dmitri
firtash got from the Kremlin she
promised to end that deal she made a
good case why on earth should
firtash his company should anybody's
company be allowed to siphon off 800
million dollars in a single year by
doing nothing by just playing this
middleman role that nobody needed nobody
asked for
well manna fort and his team went right
at prime minister Tymoshenko with full
force
they helped drive down her approval
ratings to 20% six months before that
2010 presidential election even when she
renegotiated the russia-ukraine natural
gas deal in 2009 she actually got rid of
that deal she cut firtash out she got
rid of that middleman even her
renegotiation of that deal wasn't enough
to sway a majority of voters to her mana
forts guy Yanukovych squeezed by her and
into the presidency in 2010 mana fort
received much credit for the ANA Kovich
victory and he got a rich new contract
as the new Ukrainian president's
off-site political adviser and he got
right to work one of Yanukovych his
first acts as Ukraine's new president
was to SiC a rabid state prosecutor on
Yulia Tymoshenko lock her up
Yanukovych's prosecutor charged
Timoshenko with the crime of abusing her
official powers by illegally arranging
the new firtash free gas deal between
Russia and Ukraine the accused her of
corruption for having gotten rid of that
corrupt deal Timoshenko had a lot of
sympathy in the United States and Europe
so mana fork got right to work on a
multi-part expensive public relations
campaign to destroy her reputation in
Ukraine and also in the United States
but they brought those corruption
charges against her they prosecuted her
they convicted her and they locked her
up and with Timoshenko stashed in prison
trashed by the American PR firms and
American law firms that mana fort paid
for Russia's men in Ukraine
mob-connected Dmitry firtash got back
into the gas deal which was better than
ever his company's operating profit for
the years 2012 and 2013 added up to
nearly four billion dollars
with that kind of money available for
corrupting any actual governance in the
interests of the people of Ukraine
Putin's natural gas supply there hovered
over the heads of the Ukrainian people
like a sword Putin could tell things
were going well when Yanukovych were an
egg Don his campaign promised to move
Ukraine toward greater cooperation with
possibly even membership in the European
Union
Putin knew that wouldn't that couldn't
ever happen the problem was the
Ukrainian people appeared to really like
the idea even when Putin promised 15
billion dollars worth of new aid to
Ukraine the will of the Ukrainian people
was clear they wanted the EU no matter
Putin's largesse and the orange side
revolted again what started on November
21st 2013 as a small demonstration in
the main square in Kiev and the Madonn
grew in just a few days to another
100,000 person protests the
demonstrators took over the square and
refused to leave a violent crackdown by
police in the last days of November
didn't quell the enthusiasm in the face
of Yanukovych's armed security forces
determined protesters strapped on pots
and pans as makeshift armored and they
took to the streets and the crowds kept
on coming and growing this lasted
through November through December putin
thought the cold Kiev January would
break the crowd if the security forces
could not he was wrong in February as
the Sochi Olympics kicked off they were
still there by the tens of thousands
wearing their makeshift 21st century
defensive kitchen where huddled for
warmth around trash can fires the
protest had morphed from a demonstration
about the EU question into a
demonstration about democracy itself the
will of the governed Ukrainians were
calling it the revolution of dignity the
demonstrators in Kiev were gaining
courage in numbers and on February 18
2014 they armed themselves with
slingshots and braved a gauntlet of
Yanukovych's armed security forces and
they marched on the Ukrainian Parliament
when Yanukovych is security forces
started killing protesters that
afternoon the crowds retreated to their
barricades in the Madonn and remained
there through a terrifying night
protected by a ring of fire Yanukovych's
security forces broke out machine guns
they scrambled rooftop snipers the next
day and the civilian casualty list just
kept growing and growing
one defiant protesters standing behind a
makeshift shield wearing a plastic
helmet and a surgical mask yelled we are
not afraid to die for freedom freedom is
for us freedom is ours we will win and
Ukraine will be part of Europe and
Ukraine will be part of the free world
and we'll never be slaves we will be
free
Putin watched it all with a growing
sense of dread and a growing sense of
anger here at his doorstep was the
Western conspiracy America was the cause
of all of this mess he was sure the last
little bit I'm gonna read on the eve of
the final day of the Sochi Olympics
Yanukovych not lost his nerve he called
off his security forces he turned tail
and ran he gave over Kiev and the
federal government to the orange
revolutionaries the Ukrainian Parliament
met in an emergency session legislators
voted Yanukovych out of office in
absentia they ordered the immediate
release of Yulia Tymoshenko and she was
freed and they voted to refer Yanukovych
to the International Criminal Court to
answer for crimes against humanity
Yanukovych resurfaced a few days later
in a Party of Regions stronghold in the
Russia friendly eastern part of the
country but he ran into protests even
there thousands of his countrymen faced
him down right there on his home streets
chanting Ukraine is not Russia
Ukraine is not Russia Ukraine is not
Russia Yanukovych fled to Moscow Putin
was done trying to make nice he'd had it
with the United States he was sure it
was the United States meddling on his
turf vice president Joseph R Biden had
been in and out of Kiev for years
insisting that the Obama administration
would protect Ukraine from Russia
Biden said we do not recognize and I
want to reiterate it we do not recognize
any sphere of influence and he followed
that up with what sounded like an insult
the Russians he said have a shrinking
population base they have a withering
economy they have a banking sector and
structure that's not likely to be able
to withstand the next 15 years they are
in a situation where the world is
changing before them and they are
clinging to something in the past that
is not sustainable
Putin sort of took it personally so the
good news is I scheduled a book tour and
the publication of the book for the time
when nothing is going on and I'm looking
forward to talking a little bit tonight
about how I do think that the oil and
gas industry and its influence
particularly how it works in the part of
the world that is now an area of such
focus for us I do think that links to
the current impeachment crisis and I'm
looking forward to talking about that
but in terms of where this came from
like I said at the top I did not set out
to write a book about this industry I
didn't start off knowing anything about
this industry and people who know a lot
about the industry probably think I
still don't know anything but I I had
two things that I was really stuck on
and they both led me to this and one was
this thing that I feel like we probably
didn't know any of us in our lifetimes
is going to become the fight of our
lifetimes which is the fight between the
rule of law between democratic rule of
law liberal democracy and
authoritarianism and to be facing
structural and serious and potentially
existential threats to our own democracy
at home is sort of shocking enough I
think for us as Americans but to see
clearly that this is happening to us at
a time when democracy is in decline
around the world and authoritarianism is
on the rise around the world I think
should be centering for us it should
make us realize that however America
exceptionalism may function in our lives
and in our foreign policy there are
times in life and there are times in the
evolution of Nations when bold strong
patriotic citizens can learn a lot from
people in other countries who have gone
through this too and I think we have a
lot of fellowship around the world right
now with a lot of people who are trying
to figure out how to do this right and
in thinking about trying to contribute
something meaningful e to this
discussion something meaningful to this
discussion about authoritarianism versus
the rule of law I felt like I'd heard a
lot of generic statements about
democracy being good and
authoritarianism being bad and generic
statements about needing to fight for it
and I felt like I wanted to get more
specific and I think part of trying to
shore up something that's at risk is
figuring out what's hurting it figuring
out what is within our culture within
our economy within our political sphere
that is sapping the strength of
democracy that's making it feel like a
sham to so many people that's making
strongman politics seem more attractive
and I think you need to talk about big
business when you talk about that I
think the other thing that led me to
this topic is something that you're
probably less surprised by if you've
ever seen the show which is that I'm
kind of obsessed with Russia which I
make no apologies for and but in all of
the coverage that I've done and all the
coverage that everybody in the media has
done about what happened in 2016 in
terms of our election I was really stuck
trying to figure out the motive force
for why why Russia did what it did in
part because what they did was weird
right there's like a guy who's connected
to the Kremlin who runs like a social
media factory that sounds like it's no
fun and they're making they're creating
fake American avatars and pretending to
be Facebook groups that don't exist and
then tricking Americans into going to
demonstrations and also they're stealing
Democratic Party risotto recipes and
publishing them
the name gusoff er 2.0 like what is this
why is this happening and is why is it
happening in this way these are odd
tactics but also what's the risk and we
risk and reward balance for Russia and
this I mean as best as we can tell
Russia seems to have thought that
Hillary Clinton was gonna win too I mean
they were doing their best to make sure
that wasn't gonna happen but I think
they still thought she was gonna win and
if she had won
I mean Secretary Clinton was already a
hawk on Russia imagine if she'd come
into the presidency with Russia having
just taken this swing at her in our
election to try to hurt her as president
and to try to install her opponent had
she become president they had to have
known that things were probably going to
go pear-shaped really fast but yet it
was still worth it for them to try very
very very very high-risk something that
almost smacks of desperation
well what I arrived at pretty quickly is
that I think it's hard to understand
Russia's own motivation in the world
without understanding that their economy
really sucks Russia is the biggest
landmass of any country on earth they've
got a hundred and fifty million people
which is really big I mean Germany's
eighty-five million people the UK 70
million people Italy's 60 million people
South Korea 50 million people brush is a
hundred and fifty million people they've
got an economy smaller than Italy's
smaller than South Korea's triple the
population and the same and a smaller
economy and that itself is something
that Russian politicians are the answer
for but it gets you to sort of the next
question well why is their economy so
bad especially when they float on a sea
of oil and gas generally speaking it
turns out that oil and gas is a terrible
thing on which to build your economy and
that's part of what went wrong in Russia
that's part of a bad gamble that
Vladimir Putin made very early on in his
presidency the other thing though that I
think is important is that oil and gas
not only isn't a good thing to build
your economy on the oil and gas industry
when it's big enough it kind of makes it
political weather one thing they're
actually really for all the things
they're not good at like they are for
example not good at cleaning up after
themselves really like paper towels is
still like the apex of what they have to
offer in terms of oil spills I mean
they're fancy very expensive paper
towels but it's paper towels that's what
they use for all the things they are not
that good at they're not good at
cleaning up after themselves they're not
good at sailing to Alaska they're not
good at all sorts of stuff you think
they'd be good at but one thing they're
really good at is getting governments of
all shapes and sizes to serve them to
serve their interests as an industry in
a way that tends to Hubble the ability
of that government to do a good job
serving any other responsible purpose
and that dynamic to me ended up being
fascinated fascinating setting aside
whatever might be bad for your country
in terms of having oil and gas
production there what we see over and
over and over again is that where oil
revenues flow government tends to suffer
and that's true even when it's tons of
oil revenues the founding energy
minister of Saudi Arabia says and I
quote all in all I wish we'd discovered
water the founder of OPEC says as far as
he can tell oil is quote the excrement
of the devil the founder of OPEC not
only says that oil is poop but oil is
the devil's poop it's like there's
definitely a book there right I don't I
don't know what else is gonna be in the
book but that is in the book and you
know oil companies are full of regular
people doing regular jobs both myself
and my partner Susan we both have family
members close family members have worked
in the oil industry it's nothing
personal
whatsoever but this is an industry that
is sort of nuking the planet 76 percent
of carbon emissions in the United States
are from burning oil or burning natural
gas it's basically we're the biggest
economy on earth you're talking about
more than three-quarters of our
emissions that's the big enchilada
that's it
oil and gas does also prop up terrible
governments around the world and they
weaken democratic accountable governance
everywhere
they operate I think on Russia
specifically it is also worth
understanding how much of a lifeline the
big majors of the oil industry and
ExxonMobil in particular how much of a
lifeline they have been for what has
morphed into basically malignant
kleptocratic dictatorship that has tried
to reorder the world and undo all
Western alliances and smear itself all
over US and all over every other Western
democracy they can get their mitts on
and so that's I think where we get to a
little bit of this issue of that this
conflict we've got between rising
authoritarianism and the rule of law but
I also just want to say just a couple of
things in closing I am really hopeful
about the ability to do something about
this I wouldn't have written the book of
I didn't think there was if it was sort
of a can-do thing and part of what I
think is can do about it is that I think
it's understandable I don't think this
is something that is 3d chess don't I
don't think it's a conspiracy theory I
don't think it's something that is too
big to fathom and I think the solutions
about how to deal with that how to shore
up democracy by reining in and
containing some of the forces that
corrode our democracy it's doable stuff
and the sort of one of the stories that
I tell in the book the sort of heroic
story in the book that's based in the
United States is about schoolteachers in
the great state of Oklahoma I did a book
tour event earlier this week in Tulsa
was freaking fantastic 3,000 people
coming out to see Rachel Maddow talk
about the oil and gas industry in Tulsa
yeah bring it it's great they said it
couldn't be done but in
Oklahoma is a great great great teaching
moment for all of us because Oklahoma is
a state where the oil and gas industry
is incredibly powerful and we're in many
ways that industry has co-opted and
taken over what should otherwise be
government for the people and there's no
shame in that that happens literally
everywhere oil and gas is produced in
quantity everywhere on earth but because
of that co-optation
Oklahoma started to have some really
serious problems I mean including
man-made earthquakes but not just that
and the way they responded was that
they've kind of flipped the light switch
on their democracy and Oklahoma did not
become an environmental Haven and
Oklahoma did not shut down its oil and
gas industry and oil and Oklahoma did
not become a blue state but Oklahoma
citizens of all ideological stripes
decided that they needed to take back
what their government was doing from the
industry that was strangling it and they
showed up in quantity led by the
teachers and by the students who
supported them and they reorganized
their state budget and I know the level
of the gross production tax for oil and
natural gas in the state of Oklahoma
doesn't sound like it's the thing that's
going to save the world but when they
turned it from 2% to 5% by
people-powered demonstrations under the
Rotunda in the most oil and gas captured
government within the United States that
to me was the path even among those
Republican teachers most of them even in
that conservative state to know that
this is doable stuff and I am inspired
by that I am also humbled and inspired
and in awe of the climate activist
movement that's being led by young
people right now
I think that it is no secret that they
will win what they are trying to do they
are going to win and the question for
the United States for those of us here
in the u.s. is twofold one how quickly
are we going to get there how quickly
can we make this decision and how
ambitious can be can we be when we make
it but also can we rise to the occasion
of being the biggest economy on earth
every Western oil major is either
headquartered here or needs to do lots
of business here and that means they are
all de-facto regulated here and if the
American public would stand up and do
things at the federal level to regulate
this industry that literally props up
despot around the world that not only is
game over for the climate in terms of
them getting their way but that also
erodes our own governance here and
everywhere else they touch if we enacted
the reforms at the federal level which
is something we already started to do at
the end of the Obama administration and
it could be done it would have a
worldwide effect in terms of shoring up
democracy helping us make better
decisions about the climate and making
those decisions faster and with more
ambition and it's within our reach and
that to me is exciting and I will just
close with one last thought which is I
mentioned the paper towels thing it did
surprise me in writing the book that the
level of technological hmm that's the
nice way to say this the way we
overestimate the technological capacity
of this large cup this large cut this
large industry they're not as good as
they think they are we overestimate
their technological capability and we
underestimate their geopolitical impact
and if we are about to go through a
worldwide reckoning in terms of the use
of these fuels if we are about to have a
climate driven reckoning where we turn
away from this industry at last because
we need to obviously we're all focused
on what the environmental impact of that
will be but I think it is worth thinking
in advance about the fact that that's
going to have a big geopolitical impact
too because this industry does prop up
terrible governments all over the world
they prop up whole systems of governance
all around the world and if their market
share precipitously drops and if they
lose the power that they've got both
just in terms of their wealth and in
terms of their influence and how much we
need them I think we should expect that
the boundaries of countries may change I
think we should expect governance writ
large to change I think we should expect
a number of governments around the world
to fall and quickly and that's not to
say we shouldn't do it but it means that
when that happens when that tipping
point comes and it will come these
activists are gonna win when that moment
comes we need to be able to hold
ourselves up as an exemplar of democracy
why democracy is the best system that
anybody's ever invented to show that
it's strong that it works for the people
and when other forms of government are
in decline and in collapse we're the
example of what you want to be and
[Music]
so thank you all for coming I'm super
happy to have you here I'm gonna put
back on my glasses so now you're about
to reappear and Alison is here and we're
gonna do questions over there if I fall
down between here and there
thank you if I blue to floor it
I didn't bring the book over because
when you have crutches you can't put
anything in your hands so if you want me
to like reference anything I'll have to
crawl over we'll have someone run into
us okay how's that sound
great there's water here okay so I think
it goes without saying after your
earlier reception that it is such a
pleasure an honor and a thrill to have
you Rachel Maddow in Chicago
it's in I love this city I cannot
believe how many people are here it's
amazing I just I'm thrilled so thanks
yeah yeah we are too and and I as you
were saying I don't think any of us
anticipated that the world at this
moment would look feel sound like a kind
of Rachel Maddow opening of a except on
steroids you know that everything you've
been talking about you know you were
able to say this week on your show the
Russians did it it was the Russians you
know after the Senate Intelligence
report came out about infirmed previous
reports as you said a lot of the
characters that are in the book or that
you've been talking about on the show
Rex Tillerson is back in the news he
kind of gone dormant he came back just
for the book launch supportive Dimitri
firtash I'm so glad you found that one
of the most interesting parts of the
book but you know he's actually the
extradition they're trying to extradite
him to Chicago have you got any
Ukrainian connections or Dimitri firtash
goes on trial in Chicago I will be doing
the Rachel Maddow Show from
so yeah I mean it must must boom I mean
these are terrible times but it must
feel kind of good to you hey guys you
know I've been talking about this yeah
writing about the end of the world and
now here it is I really I was thinking
about the Russia attack and trying to
figure out you know as I said the sort
of motive force for what they did would
explain their desperation what would
possibly make it worth it what I think
that we're actually trying to get out of
that election interference I think
sanctions I think you can't understand
any of it without understanding how
difficult sanctions make it for Russia
specifically because they are an oil and
gas economy and their own oil and gas
companies are terrible because Putin is
terrible
like you kind of have to get all those
pieces of the story but it does kind of
fall into place I wasn't trying to
explain what Trump was going to get
impeached for that was just like a bonus
icing on the cake I am curious because
when you any as you were kind of closing
and bringing this together and talking
about the stakes in this and thinking
about democracy authoritarianism you
know you characterize the influence of
oil and gas on politics as petroleum
powered governance saying that it has
twin engines corruption in which the
industry effectively effectively
captures politicians and then capture in
which the industry effectively comes to
own the government and when you look at
the operations of oil and gas in Russia
when you look at the operations of oil
and gas and their influence in the
United States and of course this book is
about how they intertwine and take that
step back as you're asking us to do what
are the differences and are the
differences of degree or are they of
kind between Russia and us yes the thing
that Putin recognized about the oil and
gas industry I mean Russia really is
floating on a sea of oil and gas they
they have a ton of it and they were
among the first places in the world
to ever drill it in the former Soviet
Union and the Western Siberia noil sands
are incredibly easy to drill you don't
need very fancy technology in order to
do it and so it's always been a stable
part of even the Soviet economy before
the Russian Federation but when when
Putin got into power that's obviously
the time when Russia is in transition
post Yeltsin right
and Putin sort of has a decision to make
as to whether or not Russia is going to
economically liberalize enough to have a
diversified economy they're gonna have
oil and gas at some level no matter what
but in order to have a diversified
economy and a well-balanced economy you
kind of need like property rights rule
of law a legal system that isn't just
used to kill your enemies and and give
favors to your kids you need a lack of
general corruption at everything from
the permitting process to the election
process and that was it seemed terrible
to Vladimir Putin the idea that you'd
have to go through these sort of
nation-building
things in order to develop a modern
capitalist diversified economy was not
going to work for him and so he decided
to kind of go all in on oil and gas to
the basic basically to the extent where
he took over the industry so that it
could essentially be used as a power of
that as a tool of the presidency right
oil is power oil is corrupt and so
Russia is a weak country with a weak
economy which that what it would take to
make it a strong economy he can't bear
so it's gonna be a weak economy having a
weak economy having a weak political
structure that's essentially evolved
into just this kleptocratic
authoritarianism now there's not much to
offer and it's not that's not the way
you become a stronger and more
influential country but he still sees
Russia as having an international scale
but having ambitions of international
scale and so the reason that oil and gas
was so attractive to him as something he
was willing to rely on in its entirety
was because if he could control them and
wheel
his tools he could use them as weapons
against other countries and that's what
he's done in the near abroad in terms of
all the former Soviet states Ukraine
first among them but that's also what
he's doing with Western Europe I mean he
can literally turn the lights off at
will in Germany and in Ukraine and in
lots of other places and that power is
irresistible to him and it's really the
only power that he's got and so to see
oil and gas used as a weapon there and
to see him make the because he wanted to
control it himself he couldn't allow for
there to be good companies run by strong
guys who got rich doing it because they
were good at the oil and gas business
anytime anybody got good at it he would
lock them up take their company and fold
it into Ross and after gas problem so
their help they have a terrible oil and
gas sector even though it's all they've
got its run by like his judo partners
for money with seven it's all these guys
with like noses that go this way and you
know kicked dogs for fun on their coffee
breaks I mean it's just they're terrible
the Gazprom lost over 300 billion
dollars of its valuation since this guy
Alexey Miller has been in charge but
he's still in charge because he's doing
exactly what Putin wants them to do with
that company it's they're terrible in
order to drill oil and gas in Russia as
they run out of the easy oil and gas
that they were used to as they need to
get to more challenging drilling
locations like the Arctic sea and all
these other places they want to drill
they can't do it with the terrible
companies they have they need to tap
Western experts this is one ant with
sanction this is one of the ironies
right the rhetoric in the United States
in some circles has long been that we
are dependent on foreign oil and in fact
foreign or at least Russian oil is
highly dependent on our oil and and our
oil expertise as they're saying it's a
form of people like Rex Tillerson and
Exxon yeah and not in it turned like it
turns out there's like these amazing
stories to tell about that I mean so
Russia after what I was describing there
in terms of Yanukovych turning tail and
fleeing and Putin being really mad right
what we all know what happened right
after that right Putin invaded Ukraine
and took part of it and in response the
u.s. put sanctions on them and in 2014
who Rosneft had just done a half
trillion dollar oil deal the largest oil
deal in the history of deals Ross left
of Justin a huge half trillion dollar
deal with Exxon to go do some of this
challenging drilling up in the Arctic
among other places and Rex Tillerson is
the one who did that deal lots of other
Western executives have had a really
hard time in Russia but Rex figured it
out somehow he didn't Putin somehow saw
eye to eye he was able to do this giant
deal and they were up there drilling in
the Arctic sea as or in the Kara Sea as
US sanctions on Russia were going into
effect as US sanctions on the head of
Russia's national oil company we're
going into effect and Rex and Exxon are
still there going we need a couple more
days we need a couple more days we have
we need an environmental waiver we're
worried about cleaning up properly
because of the birds we're really
worried about the we can't leave and
they're trying to get one more day one
more day one more day one more extension
because they're trying to hit oil before
they go and they do they hit oil and
then the next day sanctions yanked them
out of there and Russian oil and gas
companies suck so badly that even with
Exxon having drilled the well and found
the oil and pointed them toward it they
can't get it out of the ground and so
since that day with that half trillion
dollar deal on ice because of u.s.
foreign policy
Russia has been up against it this is
the only thing they've got in their
economy how are they going to get that
oil they need this they need Exxon they
need these Western companies well u.s.
foreign policy says they can't use them
well who should our guy who we just
installed in the White House be put in
charge of u.s. foreign policy then how
about Rex
it's an existential threat to them it
was worth it right man they also did
things despite sanctions like the
annexation of Crimea and their
developing oil and drilling there and I
wondered but reading that story it's
about you know what Russia is trying to
do to maintain this power and hold on to
it and it ensure a steady supply of it
because it is all power to them but it's
also about Exxon and Tillerson and
others trying to figure out how do we
work around the edges of these sanctions
and what are the loopholes so we can
continue to do this and it struck me in
as all of this is coming together into
that great big you know the the Rachel
Maddow prophecy that is now on earth
said that there's something similar in
the way that President Trump and and
some of the people around him are kind
of you know right now they're not
talking about the content of the
impeachment and all the news that is
coming out Gordon Sandlin just now is
saying that he will go before Congress
and talk about the quid pro quo they're
talking about the legality of this and
kind of refusing it and that is
something that this president has seemed
very good at to kind of test guardrails
and then push right through them and
ignore them and so as we're moving
forward and as you're watching this what
do you think to come back to that
question of if we are the kind of stop
you know this is where it stops our
democracy we have to be the best
what should the Democrats be doing to
try and enforce those kind of democratic
guardrails against them when he
seemingly does not seem to care about
them or even acknowledge them yeah I
mean I what's been interesting I think
with the president it's a very astute
point I think is that I feel like what
we've watched in real time over the
course of his presidency is that he
learns where these democratic norms are
in real time by crossing them because he
didn't know they were there like I'm not
supposed to just give security
clearances to my kids
this is a problem oh you're bothered by
this
yeah I'm given security clearances to
everybody you know like he learns what
if the problem learns what's illegal or
what the problem is by doing it and then
decides to make a virtue of it and so
that makes it hard to figure out like
usually when people do stuff in politics
that's bad like that getting caught is
the start of it getting fixed but in
this case getting caught is the start of
the Republican Party trying to celebrate
that at that crime is a new virtue and
that shamelessness about about about
what they're doing wrong
makes it hard I mean our most of our
tools within the Democrat within our
American democratic process are based on
shame that if you do this you will have
to disclose it and once you disclose it
people will criticize you for it and you
will be ashamed and that is the
disincentive for you to do the thing in
the first place well not if you don't
have any shame so it's hard but I mean
the the thing I am I the thing I see the
Democrats doing that I think is
unavoidable but also keeps me up a
little bit at night is that they are
taking the things that used to be rules
that the president has gleefully broken
and that the Republican Party and the
president's supporters have tried to
turn into virtues because he has broken
those things there
the Democrats are now looking at those
rules and thinking about making them
into laws the things that you were just
supposed to not do because they were
disgusting or because they were
politically unpalatable you will now not
be allowed to do and that's probably
necessary but it also change our
democratic system and I don't want the
judiciary to be the only check on our
political officials especially
because I'm very worried about the
direction of the justice department
right now I mean the the biggest norm
that has been broken in this
administration I think has actually not
been broken by the president but by the
Attorney General and the most serious
thing that we have to worry about in
terms of the drift of our democracy
right now is I think the use of the US
Justice Department to punish the
president's political opponents and
reward his political allies that that is
something for which a former attorney
general named John Mitchell went to
prison in the 1970s and I'm I feel like
if John Mitchell were alive right now
and working in the Justice Department
his only worry would be how fast he was
getting promoted and I'm very very
concerned about that and you couple that
with the sort of neat this feeling among
the Democrats that this stuff ought to
be illegal so nobody else can get away
with it the way Trump has those those
things pull me in opposite directions
mm-hmm yeah I you know I an audience
question for you there's a number of
things to be worrying about but there's
also this question from Vicki Fogerty if
and you've answered this already but
since as you say everything's moving so
quickly I curious to know what your
answer is now low these three days later
Vicki Fogerty asks if the evidence is
there for impeachment do you believe the
republican-controlled Senate will
impeach so that's the first part what
will the Senate do yeah I have no idea I
mean it's very easy I think to look at
Mitch McConnell from a distance and be
like yeah okay
but I also I do feel like we are in a
special moment and it is worth
appreciating the unique nature of the
thing that our country is going through
right now I mean President Trump has
been very controversial since before his
election and the idea that he is now
being impeached in some ways I think
feels inevitable feels like you know a
relief for people who have been critical
of his behavior but impeachment is
is is a hen's tooth I mean it's a really
rare thing it was Andrew Johnson in 1867
keep me honest I think they tried to
impeach him in 67 and they failed and
then they went back with like exactly
the same articles innate to 1868 and
they got him then and Johnson was not
removed because of Furth for want of one
vote in the Senate so that was the house
impeaching him the Senate not removing
him you have to get to the 90s before we
do it again Richard Nixon resigned
without being impeached yes they were
drawing up impeachment articles but he
resigned rather than face that so it's
Andrew Johnson and Richard and and Bill
Clinton that's it that's the only
history that we've got as a country with
impeachment and if you think that you
can extrapolate from those two examples
right to understand you know what's
normal but if the Republican if the
Senate does not yeah in vote to impeach
what does that do to the Republican
Party that's the second half of the case
well I don't I mean I don't I don't know
what's going to happen I don't know when
the Democrats are going to take their
impeachment vote and I don't know what
they're gonna try to impeach him on I
think the number of articles that they
try to impeach him on may end up being
very important just in terms of the game
theory of all of this in terms of the
numbers of Republicans who may find
something in an article three that they
didn't like in an article two when it
gets to the US Senate I think that most
democratic senators will likely vote to
remove I think that Republican senators
are basically thought to not have any
chance of that but I also feel like we
should be humble about that prediction
I don't know what's gonna happen we
don't know what's gonna come out and
preachments only been going on for three
weeks now and look how much we've
learned we didn't even know Igor
did you guys see the picture that
circulated today which is Igor and Lev
and Mike Huckabee and Igor or love again
I'm sorry I don't know which one of them
is literally holding a bag of money is
this Halloween costume is it I don't
know what will happen I think listen if
Mitch McConnell was never going to do
anything and he knew that from the
beginning no matter what came out
weren't you surprised when he came out
and said in an interview the other day
like actually we will be forced to take
this up in the Senate as I understand
the impeachment process but you don't
have a choice we got to bring it up now
he very quickly said now I don't know
how long that means we'll spend on it
and so maybe that means he convenes the
impeachment trial adjourns it and it's
over in the blink of an eye but he could
have Merrick garland did this thing just
as easily
I mean Mitch McConnell is not that
worried about the niceties of Senate
procedure when it comes to getting
something important that he wants for
partisan purposes and I say that with
great deal of admiration but he could
have just said no there's no chance
we're not taking it up don't bother he
didn't which means he's keeping a door
open for himself and I just don't think
we should prejudge any stuff of this I
think we need to have eyes open I think
that Republican I think that Republican
politicians and Democratic politicians
right now could both benefit from our
high expectations and lack of cynicism
about this process expect the best and
the most for almost all of these
politicians what they do in this
impeachment process will be in the first
paragraph of their obituary and they all
know it and that has a tendency to focus
a person's eyes on the horizon rather
than on their own feet and I think that
we I mean if you are a dyed-in-the-wool
Democrat or super liberal super
progressive or the opposite expect the
most and demand the most of people on
both sides of the aisle right here this
really isn't supposed to be a partisan
thing this is supposed to be a patriotic
thing and I think we should feel solemn
about that
but it's hard not to shrug at some of
the high jinks there are some hijinks
yes yes the tagline of your show so I
want to move away from love and he or
Gore and Rudy and Mitch to talk about
you the tagline in their show is trying
to increase the amount of useful
information in the world so you do deal
in reason and information facts rational
arguments you try to ground us you know
give us that solid solid standing but
people I don't know how many people that
I told you were coming who were
immediately like I guess you know
shocked so excited and then said I get
so worked up watching this show oh I
mean in fact I witnessed this I I hope
this isn't tiem I you know I dated
someone briefly who was a big Rachel
Maddow
fan watched the show and get enormous
Lee worked up like this and this is not
the reason we stopped dating but I did
at some point feel like Rachel Maddow is
a bigger presence in this relationship
[Laughter]
[Applause]
[Laughter]
wait can we talk a little bit about the
nature of the worked up like angry
anxious upset I think all of the above
and so what I'm wondering is like you
know your your reason and then the
emotion and the reason what do you make
of that emotion that emotional response
because I don't think that's what you're
necessarily going for oh no I don't I'm
this is this concept that you're
describing to me is new to me I I mean I
I have friends and like friends parents
in particular who say I can't watch you
at night because then I can't go to bed
sorry I got it
and so I listen in the morning or watch
in the morning because it's easier for
me and that I just thought that's you
know like I can't have chocolate after
5:00 was a constitutional thing I didn't
know it was a widespread phenomenon
she was saying that I don't know I mean
I am how do I say this I I am a crier I
am a person who easily I just I've
either leak ride whenever I hear the
national anthem I cry whenever I take
the subway if somebody is busking in the
subway even if they're terrible
immediately waterworks I just like that
and in that way I sometimes show emotion
on TV without wanting to because I can't
control it I mean I have little tricks
and stuff but I can't really control it
but aside from that being an easy crier
I'm not that emotional a person and I
don't think it helps me convey the stuff
that I want to convey in the show to
yell it or to have a fight with somebody
about it or to you know pound the table
I mean I know there's a little bit of
that because sometimes I get a little
wound up in what I'm doing but I I
mostly I'm trying to convey information
and so to the extent that what that is
doing is creating a motion I have no
idea what to do with that I don't I'm
not I'm not trying to upset you I am
totally happy okay
okay I want to ask you another question
about you you know you blend this like
incredible wonkish attention to detail
with this the satirist sense of you know
the big picture and like weaving the
story together and doing it with all
this wit and glee and you know just
energy it's really remarkable to watch
and so you did a PhD in political
science which I assume a place right on
then steered poli-sci grad school
you are a certified wok but we're about
what about that storytelling craft and
that biting wit you have that you're so
famous for and that does draw people
into you know I think that's part of why
they get so emotionally engaged with you
where did that come from is that is
there was it always part of your
worldview or is there a person or an
experience you can point to that that
brought that to you I don't know I mean
I never intended to have this kind of a
career you know like I wasn't aiming at
media certainly I thought I was going to
be an activist and so I pursued my
academic career as sort of trying to
build myself a good toolkit for being a
better activist I never really I've
never really been a person who could
imagine my life very far into the future
which is some subject for therapy and we
could do it here but great time these
chairs are coming it's do you mind if I
lie down nicely and so I was sort of
doing that in a kind of utilitarian way
trying as an activist I felt like my
what I needed to be able to do was
understand the field in which I was
working I was an AIDS activist and then
ultimately became a prison reform
activists and those things were
connected and so I needed to understand
the field in which I was operating I
needed to be able to speak with lots of
different people in order to receive
information from experts in that field
and then I needed to be able to
synthesize the political aims of what I
was doing into a story that would make
the decision-maker change their mind and
so like I did public policy as my
undergraduate degree with a focus on
healthcare because I was an AIDS
activist and I felt like I needed that
but I did a essentially a minor like an
honors thing in in ethics which was the
way that at the school I went to that's
the way you minor in philosophy and the
reason I wanted to do philosophy is
because I felt like I wanted to be
better at making arguments and when it
came to doing a doctoral dissertation I
had done a really heavily quantitative
undergraduate degree I did a lot of
statistics and stuff just that was again
trying to become more literate in ways
that I
would help me make better arguments and
be better at what I was trying to do and
so I wanted to kind of balance that
another way and and tell a big story
about social movements and social change
and that's what I did my doctoral
dissertation on so much it's all about
like just trying to get the next thing
done that I wanted to do but I ended up
at the end of it having been an activist
from the time that I was 16 and having
been trained in argument and public
policy in the mean time and that ended
up unbeknownst to me being a good
background for doing the kind of work
that I do now but it wasn't what I was
aiming at and in terms of being goofy I
think I I mean I think I'm just immature
I mean I mean it literally I am immature
but I don't just mean it like making fun
of myself I think that I like have an
eight-year-old sense of humor and so
like the there's always going to be like
oh like there's going to be a fart joke
somewhere you know there's gonna be like
I had to tell them like doubles
excrement slays me like I'm kind of
eight and so I that's how I think and if
that's the way it comes out I think it
works for some people it doesn't work
for other people I mean there's a lot of
joking around in the book even though
this is a very serious oh it made me
laugh out loud it seemed in that right
so like I wrote a book six or seven
years ago about the military also had
lots of jokes and even people who like
they teach that book at the US Army War
College Wow right something is I've I've
lectured on the book at West Point it's
like it's great but like you'll talk to
somebody who's like really into the
Abrams doctrine and wants to talk about
Selective Service in 1974 but they like
are super mad about the jokes I made
about ed Meese I'm like looking at me I
am going to make jokes about him
works for some people it works as
leavening for some people but I think it
also it's like iron filings in the dip
for other people like it just doesn't
acquired taste
speaking of acquired taste
I'm so good it's not speaking of iron
filings
speaking of acquired taste so as in you
have an 8-year old sense of humor but
you are very adult when it comes to your
beverages of choice
I have never interviewed anyone who got
so many questions about cocktails oh
good
and Justin we can quickly digress a
woman named Jody Masterton Masterson hey
Jody you are very creative she suggested
this is just a few of a much longer list
of cocktail names that you might want to
sip on like belly up to the bar with two
R's Oh oh nice
wet your whistle blower cosmopolitan and
it groans the Leske which was the last
nigrum Celestia oh very nice
Celestia but the question I have is from
John known that last name and he asks
you what is the secret to a perfect
martini oh I could go on you know if you
know drinkers who are like semi-pro that
when we start talking about like the one
drink that means a lot to us it actually
becomes almost a form of bullying like I
have to be careful the way I talk about
a martini because I come across as such
a jerk so I'll be to the point vodka is
not an ingredient in martinis vodka
vodka isn't in there gin is in there but
there is another thing that has to be in
there there has to be vermouth this
whole thing about like Winston Churchill
used to glance at the vermouth and then
exam and then not allow it to touch them
or there's an atomizer with they're
supposed to be vermouth dry vermouth yes
okay and in I think the reason that
people
afraid of putting the proper amount of
dry vermouth in their martinis is
because somebody once served them
something they called a martini that was
accidentally made with vodka vodka mixes
terribly with vermouth and so of course
you want a very dry vodka martini
because what you really want is just a
glass of vodka if you are going to drink
a martini it's both gin and a good
amount like I do like a two-to-one some
people do a 50/50 gin vermouth with good
fresh vermouth that is a bottle that you
didn't open in the Jurassic era it goes
bad it's not that alcoholic you have to
keep it in the fridge after you open it
write the data on the label very
important and if you like a lemon twist
or an olive which are the only two
options you if you have a lemon twist
you do have the option of putting a
little bit of orange bitters in your
martini which does not taste like orange
but actually counterbalances the lemon
so you don't have a fruity drink I know
it sounds counterintuitive but it works
but you can't put orange bitters in your
martini if you're using an olive because
that's weird if you do use an olive it
has to be a green olive and it can have
a pimento if you want although it's not
supposed to it can't have anything else
inside it that's not a pimento and you
have to stir it and it can't be more
than three and a half ounces any other
questions
very nice things I could say about it
but I'll try to stop now maybe the next
book yeah I could write a whole book
just about how about whether in my
opinion I think that sounds a wonderful
I I want to shift gears quite a bit
Amanda Bolton says this is an audience
question president Trump frequently
postures and media's and adversary to
truth and freedom how does that change
the way you engage with the news or how
you present the news that's a very good
question all presidents hate the media
and all presidents feel like they are
uniquely horribly treated by the media
and maybe they're right
I mean maybe as we evolved as a country
we're meaner to each successive
president maybe I mean Who am I to say
that they have distorted perspective but
there is something different going on
with this president that is about trying
to deal Ajith amis the existence of
journalism in the United States writ
large the only other politician I know
who's ever tried this on for size was my
boyfriend Spiro Agnew which is part of
the reason that I wanted to do that
bagman podcast I did because I heard so
I went and listened to some of his
speeches where I mean he's like he's
famous for this nattering nabobs of
negativism
his real speeches where he attacked the
press and where he attacked the Justice
Department and the prosecutors who were
investigating him were like trump 1.0
really really and it was seen at the
time as profoundly dangerous and the way
that he attacked the media was
particularly sort of had a had a barely
camouflaged anti-semitic implication
that he would talk about the media and
the elites in a way that really he was
making it quite clear that it was about
the Jews and the Jews controlling
everything and the Jews being out to get
him and Agnew after he resigned the vice
presidency ultimately would go on to be
basically an international anti-semite
for hire where he would
in solicit income for an income from
foreign governments that wanted to stir
up anger against American Jews literally
that's what he did to make money and so
I feel like Agnew's ghost helps us
understand how malignant this is and how
close it is to really really dark even
fistic aims and I also can see that it's
an offshoot of what other presidents
have done in terms of their complaining
and so recognizing that this could
curdle very badly and it's it's it edges
up against that and I see that I also
feel like the solution to it is not to
get as serious about it but rather to
try to brush it off a little bit and in
my own life part of what it means is
that I sort of refused to play these
games where they try to turn us in the
media against each other I know that
people have different views about how
best to approach this presidency and how
best to approach journalism and some
people think cable news is evil and some
people are mad at the New York Times and
some people think that the you know Jeff
Bezos iteration of the Washington Post
means a thing and some people really
hate Fox News even the news side of Fox
News inside and I I feel like at this
point we're if we're in the if we're in
the news business and we're in the
journalism business then we are all on
the same side and even the people who
hate me I will love back and so it's a
it's I mean
if is everybody here subscribed to their
local public radio station do you pay
money if you're look pay money to your
local public radio station you have a
great public radio here you really do
and it needs and to support local
reporting the best thing you can do for
journalism in your country I don't know
what's going on at Chicago unless
they're Chicago reporters reporting it
in a way that I can pick up in New York
and make into a national story right I
wouldn't have took I wouldn't have had
the Flint water story had there not been
local reporters working in Michigan and
Clinton telling that
like you can't survive with the national
media even if it's a great national
media that you like have to support
local local journalism and you need to
support journalism as a craft I don't
know if in if your kid or if you've got
kids or grandkids who are in middle
school and high school right now but do
you know if at the middle school or high
school that attends to your family do
you know if they've got a student paper
if they don't have a student paper would
you consider getting together with some
of your friends and endowing one if
they're not if they've got that would
you consider endowing proto television
journalism podcast for the jet for the
journalism class and the 6th grade at
your local middle school I mean we need
to grow investigative reporters by the
bushel in this country for the sake of
our democracy we were we were talking
backstage and I get nutrients need two
more questions in concern now I gotta
let you go I'm sorry I've talked so long
you're amazing no apologies this is kind
of a great time for journalism we were
talking about that your book which not
only paints this incredible picture of
the the the threat of the oil and gas
industry and why we need to think about
this and become closer to it but the
number of excellent reporters
represented in it whose work you bring
back to life if we feel like we don't
have access to useful information that's
really not the case there's so many
amazing reporters we were talking in
backstage about she said by Jody Kanter
Megan Chui who are joining us next
Tuesday I'm very excited and their book
and then Ronin Pharaohs catch and kill
now these are two books that talk about
the media in different ways she said is
about the the force of the New York
Times and how that helped them carry
that investigation for it gave them a
certain credibility pharaoh has a
different experience he says the media
company MSNBC NBC that he worked with in
stymied him tried to shut down and I'm
wondering given that there are both
books about me too
and given that you've just thought a lot
about corporate responsibility visa vie
the oil gas industry and the ways in
which governance can get twisted with
sort of trying to serve shareholder
values mm-hmm what do you think the role
of corporate responsibility is in
relationship to me to boy I mean first
of all I think that media companies are
companies and companies need to be
internally improving on these issues
right that the ways of doing business in
the media business and in lots of other
big business have to change and when
there is a reckoning in these things the
companies need to recognize that
evolution and not resistance is the way
to deal with those things and so I think
first and foremost media companies need
to be seen as companies that need to do
their own work there in terms of the
reporting around me to stuff I mean the
to the extent that there are gatekeepers
for this kind of stuff if the
gatekeepers are compromised the stories
aren't going to get out but that just
creates I mean Ronan's book right as far
as I understand it is a story that he
was chasing which is about Weinstein and
then the other story that he discovered
along the way when he started to
investigate what was keeping him from
getting the story about Weinstein and
the proper outcome of that process is
that he is able in the end to tell both
stories one of those stories who want to
pull out surprised for and one of them
he's about to have a number one
best-selling book that's gonna knock me
off the charts and so I mean I think
I've read Megan and Jodi's book I've not
read Megan Ronan's book cause it's not
out but I one of the things that I am
incredibly buoyed by for both of them is
that I think those books are gonna make
people who read them in college decide
to go to journalism school because it is
about the nobility and bravery and civic
mindedness and rigor of journalism done
well and it's as exciting as hell I mean
it really really is and so that's what
welcoming
so speaking of nobility and bravery and
civic mindedness and this is the last
question I hate love you to stay for an
hour way back in 2010 in regard to fake
politics and the dearth of political
facts you said on your show let's argue
let's have the great American debate
about the role of government and the
best policies for the country it's fun
it's citizenship its activism it makes
the country better when we have those
debates and your country needs you it
needs all of you it needs all of us so
if we armed with one of your fabulous
martinis take those hard marching orders
how do we leave tonight and start that
debate Wow
I would I would say a couple of things I
do I do I am not a particularly green
person like I don't come from an
environmental background my partner's
very green and like kind of tried to
make our lives more sustainable and
everything and I just I'm not really
wired that way and I'm trying to get
better having written this book about
the oil and gas industry and the way it
is corrosive toward our ability to make
good democratic decisions now on the way
toward the climate apocalypse you think
that would motivate me to be like you
know like taking a sailboat everywhere
and I'm I'm not I'm intellectually there
but my life hasn't changed to make those
accounts and so I feel you know
embarrassed about that and humble about
that but I also feel like it's worth
being real about that and we don't we're
not all going to become full-time
activists and we're not all going to run
for office and we're not all going to
lead a movement but we can all do
something more than we are already doing
and if
you are incredibly motivated by the
president if you have if you feel like
president Trump is a motivating force
like nothing you've ever had in your
life the what in your life shows that if
you want him out of office or if your
incredible supporter of President Trump
and you really want him to stay in
office what are you doing to make that
happen this is a time when I think we
have all started to realize that you
can't necessarily know what the thing is
that's gonna make the difference in the
world
you can't know what's gonna inspire
people right I mean these viral moments
that spread on social media of regular
people doing things on the middle of a
day when they woke up that morning and
thought it was gonna be a day like no
other and they ended up doing something
that changed the conversation of the
country of 300 million people for a week
you know we're in a position right now
where our ability as individual citizens
to do stuff gives us a new form of
responsibility and to the extent that
the climate matters to you are you doing
other kind of political work and can you
factor climate into that to the extent
that the president matters to you or
this next election matters to you what
are you doing not just to follow it on
TV but to actually participate try to
try as much as you can to change the
outcome and the way that you want it to
go I just think this is just close are
saying this having all of you guys here
in person to me is the reason I was so
like nervous and jittery at the
beginning is because we spend all of our
times with our screens on right I mean
you guys see me behind the TV screen I
know but we also spend all of our times
with our through all of our time with
our phones and with our computer screens
and that's so much the way that we
understand the mediated world right now
but none of you are doing that right now
you're all here in person you came out
here bodily to see me in person to be
among all of these other thousands of
you who came out to do this in person to
be at a live event to imbibe words to
hear a conversation to have new thoughts
and to be around your fellow man while
doing it and that is something that you
don't have to do but you did it and
you're here and it means the world to me
and to me
when we are willing to show up someplace
when we were actually willing to bodily
be there it's transformative not only
potentially for the world but for us and
so I just it means a lot for me to see
you guys right now and I would just say
to do your own inventory in terms of
what matters to you and what you can
maximize in your life in terms of what
you're doing to bring that about
what an awesome love to end on a chill
that Oh
[Applause]
I'm sorry about your dating thing it was
a good news a good sign
[Applause]
you