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[Applause]

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[Laughter]

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[Rachel Maddow]
Wow thank you all so much for coming

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[Applause]

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Wow

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Did he say 4,000 people are here?

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[Laughs] This is crazy

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[from audience] We love you Rachel
[RM ]I love you too, thank you.

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Alright I'm sorry about 
the whole crutches thing

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I know it's melodramatic, right?

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It's a very boring story 
or I would tell it

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Thank you all so much for being here.

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This is an overwhelming number of humans

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I am just incredibly honored
that you're all here

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I do a show on TV and I know that
there are people watching

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but I can't see them
and so this is coming face to face

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with something that I really try
never to think about,

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which is that a lot of people
know what I do

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including the screw-ups every day.

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So as a way to try to minimize the emotion

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I am actually going to change glasses, 
so that with these glasses on

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I will not be able to see any of you
which will make this easier for me.

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All right,okay, so I did not set out
to write a book

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about the oil and gas industry

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And I thought: for sure, if I did,
no one would want to read it.

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and then this weird thing happened,

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right around the time the book 
was ready to come out,

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which is that the president
started getting impeached

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and [cheers and applause] 
I didn't do it but I'll take the applause

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and the the thing 
that really surprised me

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is that this book is coming out
and it's kind of about the thing

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for which the president 
is being impeached .

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And so I had planned -- when 
I was going to go around

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and talk about the book
and do events like this --

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that I would read like the funny section
of the book.

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There's a section I really like
that I think is kind of funny,

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that's about walruses

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and I was like I go to Chicago,
It's going to be this big room

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that's gonna slay, 
they're gonna love the walruses thing

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because the president 
is now being impeached, though,

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for something that has to do
with the thesis of this book

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I kind of feel like I should read
from that part of the book:

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just - in part because I'm really looking
forward to this conversation with Allison

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and some of your guys' questions
and I feel like maybe

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this would be kind of a good predicate
because I have a feeling

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there might be some appetite to talk
about that.

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And from the applause a second ago,
when I said the word impeachment

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I think I'm right; so all right
so I'll read a little bit and then

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I'll just say a little thing
and then Allison will come out.

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So here we go: the reason I specifically
kind of picked out this part tonight

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is because of those guys 
who got arrested a couple days ago,

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Lev and Igor, they -- one of the things
that was interesting about that --

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so they got arrested and charged with
trying to

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funnel illegal campaign donations,

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including illegal foreign-origin
Russian campaign donations

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to Republican politicians,both to start
a weed business, but also to try to get

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the US ambassador to Ukraine removed,

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as part of a scheme they were working on

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with the President's lawyer
Rudy Giuliani.

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And we know from Mr. Giuliani's
own account

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that the reason they wanted
that ambassador out in Ukraine

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was because she was in the way

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of their scheme to get Ukraine to provide the president

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with dirt he could use against the

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Democrats in the 2020 election which is

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what he's now being impeached for so it

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all kind of ties but I thought it was it

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was interesting and like weird given the

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book that when those guys got arrested

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remember they got arrested at Dulles

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Airport and we think they moved up the

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indictment so that they could hurry up

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the arrests because they had one-way

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tickets out of the country and so they

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went and they swooped in and they got

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them at Dulles and they brought them to

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the nearest federal courthouse the

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relevant federal courthouse if you're

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ever arrested at Dulles Airport trying

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to flee the country as news you can use

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is the Eastern District of Virginia and

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so they've got brought in for their

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initial court hearing at the Eastern

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District of Virginia and the weirdest

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thing happened

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they got Paul manna Ford's lawyers what

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were they doing there what's your

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connection to all this did you guys know

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each other before so that was weird

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mr. Giuliani also says that one of the

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people who he's been working on this

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scheme with the one that the president

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is going to get impeached for the person

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who was giving him strategic advice on

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what the president might be able to

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solicit from Ukraine to help him in his

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next election one of the people he has

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been consulting with on this is Paul

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Manafort who is the president's campaign

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chairman but currently is a federal

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inmate and apparently mr. Giuliani has

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been working with him so there's the

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guys who are in jail now who have just

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been arrested and indicted there's the

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other guy who's serving a federal prison

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sentence those are those are the first

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three guys Giuliani is working with on

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this scheme and then there's another guy

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because when they got arrested at Dulles

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they had these one-way tickets and they

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were to Frankfurt but they didn't say

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that they were planning on staying in

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Frankfurt they were going to transit

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through there and mr. Giuliani again

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always helpful told a reporter for the

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Atlantic that where they were going was

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Vienna Austria and he was also on his

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way to Vienna Austria but they weren't

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going together it was just coincidence

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and we now know that the reason they

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were going to Vienna Austria is because

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they were at least either Lev or Igor I

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can't tell them apart yet by next week I

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will have it one of them was working for

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a guy whose name is Dmitri firtash who's

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in the book and what has emerged

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actually what he merged last night which

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is why I'm going to read this today is

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Reuters how to report that Dmitri

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firtash who is not in prison but is

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under arrest and out on bail and

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fighting extradition to the United

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States where US prosecutors say that

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he's an upper echelon associate of

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Russian organized crime and he's wanted

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on a multibillion-dollar fraud scheme

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Dmitri firtash is the one who has

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apparently according to Reuters been

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financing Lev and Igor in their latest

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exploits it may it also is starting to

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appear like maybe Dmitri firtash is the

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one who was paying Rudi

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for this work through love and Igor and

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like I said us prosecutors believe he's

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an upper echelon associate of Russian

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organized crime so I feel like it's all

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coming together and the president is

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gonna get impeached for this stuff but

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all of the people who are apparently

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were involved in in all of the people

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who were apparently involved in hooking

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them up with this are either in jail in

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prison or fighting extradition plus Rudy

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and so I feel like I have to talk about

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this stuff now quick because well once

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they're all in jail it's gonna be harder

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to get more of the story out so anyway

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that's the back that's the background

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the immediate news background which I

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think makes this relevant all right

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the biggest threat Putin had to keep it

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BAE was the prospect of strong rich

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stable western-oriented democracies in

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Russia's near abroad that sort of thing

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could not only challenge or constrain

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Russia's regional power it could

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conceivably the horror inspire the

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Russian people themselves leading them

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to demand a democratic say in their own

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government as well the solution was

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simple use Russian natural gas and oil

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not only to make money for the Russian

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state but also to keep neighboring

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countries corrupt and dependent it

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solved so many problems it reduced

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expectations for democratic governance

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and the rule of law in those countries

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it created a corruptly empowered

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political class invested in preserving

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the Russia dependent system that

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enriched both its practitioners and

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oftentimes also their families it also

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created comfortable space for organized

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crime to flourish the Russian government

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under Vladimir Putin's control has

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steadily become more integrated with all

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kinds of transnational organized crime

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in the former Soviet sphere and not just

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because Putin has tended to attract the

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kinds of broken nose Tufts who would

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otherwise be called henchmen if Putin

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hadn't made them so rich

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the beauty of putin's ever deepening

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kinship with the mob was that it gave

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him a whole other

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of levers with which to settle problems

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and to make problematic people go away

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whenever it might be unseemly to wield

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the overt powers of the state and so

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Putin's team in the Kremlin was

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delighted to utilize a man like Dimitri

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firtash Dimitri for attaches special

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skills could be used to shape Ukraine

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more to the Kremlin's liking to turn it

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from its increasingly worrying

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flirtation with the West with the work

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with the European Union with Oh God

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maybe even NATO so the Kremlin cut

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firtash a sweetheart deal in Ukraine

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virata's new company was given the

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exclusive right to buy gas from Russia

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to sell to Ukraine at a very large

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profit about eight hundred million

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dollars in clear profit in the year 2007

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alone now Ukraine could just as easily

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have bought the gas with no middleman

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and no markup but Putin wanted both the

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middleman and the markup it cost Gazprom

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the Russian natural gas company a pretty

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penny basically straight out of Russian

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government coffers but it was worth it

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firtash as well as some of Putin's other

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Ukrainian oligarchs would have plenty of

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cash to spread around to shape Ukraine

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in ways that Putin would appreciate some

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of that cash did go back to Moscow as

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tribute but even more of it went to prop

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up something called the Party of Regions

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which meant a whole bunch of that money

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passed through or ended up in the

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offshore bank accounts of the mercenary

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American political operative named Paul

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Manafort Paul Manafort helped the Moscow

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friendly party of regions when a solid

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plurality in the 2006 parliamentary

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elections in Ukraine and then he spent

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the next few years dinging Ukraine's

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strongest opposition leaders including

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those from the orange party Prime

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Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was a prime

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target

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Timoshenko was a particular threat to

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Moscow's influence in Ukraine she had

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made herself the front-runner in the

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2010 presidential election by seizing on

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that sweetheart gas deal that Dmitri

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firtash got from the Kremlin she

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promised to end that deal she made a

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good case why on earth should

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firtash his company should anybody's

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company be allowed to siphon off 800

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million dollars in a single year by

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doing nothing by just playing this

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middleman role that nobody needed nobody

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asked for

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well manna fort and his team went right

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at prime minister Tymoshenko with full

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force

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they helped drive down her approval

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ratings to 20% six months before that

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2010 presidential election even when she

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renegotiated the russia-ukraine natural

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gas deal in 2009 she actually got rid of

264
00:12:39,010 --> 00:12:41,290
that deal she cut firtash out she got

265
00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:43,380
rid of that middleman even her

266
00:12:43,380 --> 00:12:46,149
renegotiation of that deal wasn't enough

267
00:12:46,149 --> 00:12:49,329
to sway a majority of voters to her mana

268
00:12:49,329 --> 00:12:52,329
forts guy Yanukovych squeezed by her and

269
00:12:52,329 --> 00:12:56,019
into the presidency in 2010 mana fort

270
00:12:56,019 --> 00:12:58,120
received much credit for the ANA Kovich

271
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,190
victory and he got a rich new contract

272
00:13:00,190 --> 00:13:01,720
as the new Ukrainian president's

273
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,360
off-site political adviser and he got

274
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,850
right to work one of Yanukovych his

275
00:13:06,850 --> 00:13:08,769
first acts as Ukraine's new president

276
00:13:08,769 --> 00:13:11,399
was to SiC a rabid state prosecutor on

277
00:13:11,399 --> 00:13:15,720
Yulia Tymoshenko lock her up

278
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,800
Yanukovych's prosecutor charged

279
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,740
Timoshenko with the crime of abusing her

280
00:13:20,740 --> 00:13:24,070
official powers by illegally arranging

281
00:13:24,070 --> 00:13:27,130
the new firtash free gas deal between

282
00:13:27,130 --> 00:13:30,040
Russia and Ukraine the accused her of

283
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,529
corruption for having gotten rid of that

284
00:13:32,529 --> 00:13:37,480
corrupt deal Timoshenko had a lot of

285
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,370
sympathy in the United States and Europe

286
00:13:39,370 --> 00:13:41,699
so mana fork got right to work on a

287
00:13:41,699 --> 00:13:44,350
multi-part expensive public relations

288
00:13:44,350 --> 00:13:47,110
campaign to destroy her reputation in

289
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:49,680
Ukraine and also in the United States

290
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,640
but they brought those corruption

291
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,709
charges against her they prosecuted her

292
00:13:53,709 --> 00:13:55,540
they convicted her and they locked her

293
00:13:55,540 --> 00:13:59,050
up and with Timoshenko stashed in prison

294
00:13:59,050 --> 00:14:01,839
trashed by the American PR firms and

295
00:14:01,839 --> 00:14:03,820
American law firms that mana fort paid

296
00:14:03,820 --> 00:14:06,250
for Russia's men in Ukraine

297
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:09,790
mob-connected Dmitry firtash got back

298
00:14:09,790 --> 00:14:11,949
into the gas deal which was better than

299
00:14:11,949 --> 00:14:13,899
ever his company's operating profit for

300
00:14:13,899 --> 00:14:16,480
the years 2012 and 2013 added up to

301
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,200
nearly four billion dollars

302
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:21,820
with that kind of money available for

303
00:14:21,820 --> 00:14:23,890
corrupting any actual governance in the

304
00:14:23,890 --> 00:14:25,080
interests of the people of Ukraine

305
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,940
Putin's natural gas supply there hovered

306
00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:29,170
over the heads of the Ukrainian people

307
00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:32,800
like a sword Putin could tell things

308
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,900
were going well when Yanukovych were an

309
00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:36,940
egg Don his campaign promised to move

310
00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:38,860
Ukraine toward greater cooperation with

311
00:14:38,860 --> 00:14:41,890
possibly even membership in the European

312
00:14:41,890 --> 00:14:42,430
Union

313
00:14:42,430 --> 00:14:44,860
Putin knew that wouldn't that couldn't

314
00:14:44,860 --> 00:14:47,530
ever happen the problem was the

315
00:14:47,530 --> 00:14:49,180
Ukrainian people appeared to really like

316
00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:52,000
the idea even when Putin promised 15

317
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,980
billion dollars worth of new aid to

318
00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:56,050
Ukraine the will of the Ukrainian people

319
00:14:56,050 --> 00:14:59,080
was clear they wanted the EU no matter

320
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,320
Putin's largesse and the orange side

321
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,630
revolted again what started on November

322
00:15:04,630 --> 00:15:07,450
21st 2013 as a small demonstration in

323
00:15:07,450 --> 00:15:09,370
the main square in Kiev and the Madonn

324
00:15:09,370 --> 00:15:12,150
grew in just a few days to another

325
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:15,400
100,000 person protests the

326
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,230
demonstrators took over the square and

327
00:15:17,230 --> 00:15:19,780
refused to leave a violent crackdown by

328
00:15:19,780 --> 00:15:21,190
police in the last days of November

329
00:15:21,190 --> 00:15:24,190
didn't quell the enthusiasm in the face

330
00:15:24,190 --> 00:15:26,680
of Yanukovych's armed security forces

331
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,530
determined protesters strapped on pots

332
00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:32,830
and pans as makeshift armored and they

333
00:15:32,830 --> 00:15:34,810
took to the streets and the crowds kept

334
00:15:34,810 --> 00:15:37,900
on coming and growing this lasted

335
00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:40,600
through November through December putin

336
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,580
thought the cold Kiev January would

337
00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:44,470
break the crowd if the security forces

338
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:48,190
could not he was wrong in February as

339
00:15:48,190 --> 00:15:50,830
the Sochi Olympics kicked off they were

340
00:15:50,830 --> 00:15:53,170
still there by the tens of thousands

341
00:15:53,170 --> 00:15:55,900
wearing their makeshift 21st century

342
00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:59,020
defensive kitchen where huddled for

343
00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:01,690
warmth around trash can fires the

344
00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:03,340
protest had morphed from a demonstration

345
00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:05,140
about the EU question into a

346
00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:07,540
demonstration about democracy itself the

347
00:16:07,540 --> 00:16:10,330
will of the governed Ukrainians were

348
00:16:10,330 --> 00:16:13,530
calling it the revolution of dignity the

349
00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:15,460
demonstrators in Kiev were gaining

350
00:16:15,460 --> 00:16:18,880
courage in numbers and on February 18

351
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,290
2014 they armed themselves with

352
00:16:22,290 --> 00:16:25,960
slingshots and braved a gauntlet of

353
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,840
Yanukovych's armed security forces and

354
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,110
they marched on the Ukrainian Parliament

355
00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:34,040
when Yanukovych is security forces

356
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,540
started killing protesters that

357
00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:37,820
afternoon the crowds retreated to their

358
00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:39,889
barricades in the Madonn and remained

359
00:16:39,889 --> 00:16:41,259
there through a terrifying night

360
00:16:41,259 --> 00:16:45,079
protected by a ring of fire Yanukovych's

361
00:16:45,079 --> 00:16:47,149
security forces broke out machine guns

362
00:16:47,149 --> 00:16:50,389
they scrambled rooftop snipers the next

363
00:16:50,389 --> 00:16:53,149
day and the civilian casualty list just

364
00:16:53,149 --> 00:16:54,910
kept growing and growing

365
00:16:54,910 --> 00:16:57,620
one defiant protesters standing behind a

366
00:16:57,620 --> 00:16:59,480
makeshift shield wearing a plastic

367
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,660
helmet and a surgical mask yelled we are

368
00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:05,780
not afraid to die for freedom freedom is

369
00:17:05,780 --> 00:17:09,260
for us freedom is ours we will win and

370
00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:11,089
Ukraine will be part of Europe and

371
00:17:11,089 --> 00:17:12,980
Ukraine will be part of the free world

372
00:17:12,980 --> 00:17:15,349
and we'll never be slaves we will be

373
00:17:15,349 --> 00:17:16,689
free

374
00:17:16,689 --> 00:17:18,740
Putin watched it all with a growing

375
00:17:18,740 --> 00:17:21,349
sense of dread and a growing sense of

376
00:17:21,349 --> 00:17:23,599
anger here at his doorstep was the

377
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,480
Western conspiracy America was the cause

378
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,140
of all of this mess he was sure the last

379
00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:33,200
little bit I'm gonna read on the eve of

380
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,919
the final day of the Sochi Olympics

381
00:17:35,919 --> 00:17:38,960
Yanukovych not lost his nerve he called

382
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,210
off his security forces he turned tail

383
00:17:41,210 --> 00:17:43,940
and ran he gave over Kiev and the

384
00:17:43,940 --> 00:17:45,140
federal government to the orange

385
00:17:45,140 --> 00:17:47,330
revolutionaries the Ukrainian Parliament

386
00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:50,360
met in an emergency session legislators

387
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,460
voted Yanukovych out of office in

388
00:17:52,460 --> 00:17:55,130
absentia they ordered the immediate

389
00:17:55,130 --> 00:17:58,130
release of Yulia Tymoshenko and she was

390
00:17:58,130 --> 00:18:01,580
freed and they voted to refer Yanukovych

391
00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:03,440
to the International Criminal Court to

392
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,460
answer for crimes against humanity

393
00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:08,809
Yanukovych resurfaced a few days later

394
00:18:08,809 --> 00:18:12,380
in a Party of Regions stronghold in the

395
00:18:12,380 --> 00:18:13,850
Russia friendly eastern part of the

396
00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:16,190
country but he ran into protests even

397
00:18:16,190 --> 00:18:18,470
there thousands of his countrymen faced

398
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:20,299
him down right there on his home streets

399
00:18:20,299 --> 00:18:22,730
chanting Ukraine is not Russia

400
00:18:22,730 --> 00:18:25,309
Ukraine is not Russia Ukraine is not

401
00:18:25,309 --> 00:18:30,770
Russia Yanukovych fled to Moscow Putin

402
00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:33,260
was done trying to make nice he'd had it

403
00:18:33,260 --> 00:18:35,059
with the United States he was sure it

404
00:18:35,059 --> 00:18:37,340
was the United States meddling on his

405
00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:41,299
turf vice president Joseph R Biden had

406
00:18:41,299 --> 00:18:43,059
been in and out of Kiev for years

407
00:18:43,059 --> 00:18:45,260
insisting that the Obama administration

408
00:18:45,260 --> 00:18:47,620
would protect Ukraine from Russia

409
00:18:47,620 --> 00:18:51,130
Biden said we do not recognize and I

410
00:18:51,130 --> 00:18:53,800
want to reiterate it we do not recognize

411
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,210
any sphere of influence and he followed

412
00:18:58,210 --> 00:19:00,090
that up with what sounded like an insult

413
00:19:00,090 --> 00:19:03,280
the Russians he said have a shrinking

414
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,380
population base they have a withering

415
00:19:05,380 --> 00:19:07,570
economy they have a banking sector and

416
00:19:07,570 --> 00:19:09,100
structure that's not likely to be able

417
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:11,770
to withstand the next 15 years they are

418
00:19:11,770 --> 00:19:13,360
in a situation where the world is

419
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,340
changing before them and they are

420
00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:17,350
clinging to something in the past that

421
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:19,740
is not sustainable

422
00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:26,560
Putin sort of took it personally so the

423
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,540
good news is I scheduled a book tour and

424
00:19:28,540 --> 00:19:29,830
the publication of the book for the time

425
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:36,880
when nothing is going on and I'm looking

426
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,320
forward to talking a little bit tonight

427
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,120
about how I do think that the oil and

428
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:41,560
gas industry and its influence

429
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,840
particularly how it works in the part of

430
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,370
the world that is now an area of such

431
00:19:45,370 --> 00:19:47,290
focus for us I do think that links to

432
00:19:47,290 --> 00:19:48,760
the current impeachment crisis and I'm

433
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:49,960
looking forward to talking about that

434
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,780
but in terms of where this came from

435
00:19:52,780 --> 00:19:54,460
like I said at the top I did not set out

436
00:19:54,460 --> 00:19:56,170
to write a book about this industry I

437
00:19:56,170 --> 00:19:57,580
didn't start off knowing anything about

438
00:19:57,580 --> 00:20:00,040
this industry and people who know a lot

439
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,390
about the industry probably think I

440
00:20:01,390 --> 00:20:05,140
still don't know anything but I I had

441
00:20:05,140 --> 00:20:06,820
two things that I was really stuck on

442
00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:10,980
and they both led me to this and one was

443
00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:15,040
this thing that I feel like we probably

444
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,620
didn't know any of us in our lifetimes

445
00:20:17,620 --> 00:20:19,240
is going to become the fight of our

446
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,930
lifetimes which is the fight between the

447
00:20:22,930 --> 00:20:26,170
rule of law between democratic rule of

448
00:20:26,170 --> 00:20:29,790
law liberal democracy and

449
00:20:29,790 --> 00:20:34,620
authoritarianism and to be facing

450
00:20:34,620 --> 00:20:37,570
structural and serious and potentially

451
00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:39,490
existential threats to our own democracy

452
00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:42,190
at home is sort of shocking enough I

453
00:20:42,190 --> 00:20:45,180
think for us as Americans but to see

454
00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:48,640
clearly that this is happening to us at

455
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,290
a time when democracy is in decline

456
00:20:50,290 --> 00:20:52,480
around the world and authoritarianism is

457
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,760
on the rise around the world I think

458
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,180
should be centering for us it should

459
00:20:58,180 --> 00:21:00,610
make us realize that however America

460
00:21:00,610 --> 00:21:04,000
exceptionalism may function in our lives

461
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,100
and in our foreign policy there are

462
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,980
times in life and there are times in the

463
00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:11,650
evolution of Nations when bold strong

464
00:21:11,650 --> 00:21:13,840
patriotic citizens can learn a lot from

465
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,280
people in other countries who have gone

466
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,290
through this too and I think we have a

467
00:21:17,290 --> 00:21:19,030
lot of fellowship around the world right

468
00:21:19,030 --> 00:21:20,500
now with a lot of people who are trying

469
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:22,480
to figure out how to do this right and

470
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,840
in thinking about trying to contribute

471
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,549
something meaningful e to this

472
00:21:27,549 --> 00:21:29,559
discussion something meaningful to this

473
00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:31,360
discussion about authoritarianism versus

474
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:33,520
the rule of law I felt like I'd heard a

475
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,730
lot of generic statements about

476
00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:38,140
democracy being good and

477
00:21:38,140 --> 00:21:40,720
authoritarianism being bad and generic

478
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,610
statements about needing to fight for it

479
00:21:42,610 --> 00:21:44,440
and I felt like I wanted to get more

480
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,429
specific and I think part of trying to

481
00:21:48,429 --> 00:21:50,260
shore up something that's at risk is

482
00:21:50,260 --> 00:21:53,650
figuring out what's hurting it figuring

483
00:21:53,650 --> 00:21:56,559
out what is within our culture within

484
00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:01,390
our economy within our political sphere

485
00:22:01,390 --> 00:22:04,000
that is sapping the strength of

486
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,620
democracy that's making it feel like a

487
00:22:05,620 --> 00:22:07,660
sham to so many people that's making

488
00:22:07,660 --> 00:22:10,059
strongman politics seem more attractive

489
00:22:10,059 --> 00:22:13,330
and I think you need to talk about big

490
00:22:13,330 --> 00:22:15,090
business when you talk about that I

491
00:22:15,090 --> 00:22:18,730
think the other thing that led me to

492
00:22:18,730 --> 00:22:20,740
this topic is something that you're

493
00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:23,080
probably less surprised by if you've

494
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,669
ever seen the show which is that I'm

495
00:22:24,669 --> 00:22:28,299
kind of obsessed with Russia which I

496
00:22:28,299 --> 00:22:36,760
make no apologies for and but in all of

497
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,200
the coverage that I've done and all the

498
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,549
coverage that everybody in the media has

499
00:22:39,549 --> 00:22:41,410
done about what happened in 2016 in

500
00:22:41,410 --> 00:22:43,030
terms of our election I was really stuck

501
00:22:43,030 --> 00:22:44,860
trying to figure out the motive force

502
00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:49,750
for why why Russia did what it did in

503
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:51,669
part because what they did was weird

504
00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:54,309
right there's like a guy who's connected

505
00:22:54,309 --> 00:22:56,440
to the Kremlin who runs like a social

506
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,720
media factory that sounds like it's no

507
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,480
fun and they're making they're creating

508
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,820
fake American avatars and pretending to

509
00:23:03,820 --> 00:23:05,500
be Facebook groups that don't exist and

510
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:07,270
then tricking Americans into going to

511
00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:09,669
demonstrations and also they're stealing

512
00:23:09,669 --> 00:23:12,220
Democratic Party risotto recipes and

513
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:13,560
publishing them

514
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,220
the name gusoff er 2.0 like what is this

515
00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:18,810
why is this happening and is why is it

516
00:23:18,810 --> 00:23:20,160
happening in this way these are odd

517
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,270
tactics but also what's the risk and we

518
00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:26,400
risk and reward balance for Russia and

519
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,160
this I mean as best as we can tell

520
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,690
Russia seems to have thought that

521
00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:33,000
Hillary Clinton was gonna win too I mean

522
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,080
they were doing their best to make sure

523
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,340
that wasn't gonna happen but I think

524
00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:37,850
they still thought she was gonna win and

525
00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:40,110
if she had won

526
00:23:40,110 --> 00:23:42,390
I mean Secretary Clinton was already a

527
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:44,310
hawk on Russia imagine if she'd come

528
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:46,530
into the presidency with Russia having

529
00:23:46,530 --> 00:23:50,130
just taken this swing at her in our

530
00:23:50,130 --> 00:23:53,010
election to try to hurt her as president

531
00:23:53,010 --> 00:23:56,430
and to try to install her opponent had

532
00:23:56,430 --> 00:23:58,080
she become president they had to have

533
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,610
known that things were probably going to

534
00:23:59,610 --> 00:24:03,030
go pear-shaped really fast but yet it

535
00:24:03,030 --> 00:24:05,850
was still worth it for them to try very

536
00:24:05,850 --> 00:24:09,300
very very very high-risk something that

537
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:11,930
almost smacks of desperation

538
00:24:11,930 --> 00:24:15,840
well what I arrived at pretty quickly is

539
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,580
that I think it's hard to understand

540
00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:19,080
Russia's own motivation in the world

541
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,790
without understanding that their economy

542
00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:25,230
really sucks Russia is the biggest

543
00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:26,910
landmass of any country on earth they've

544
00:24:26,910 --> 00:24:28,500
got a hundred and fifty million people

545
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:30,450
which is really big I mean Germany's

546
00:24:30,450 --> 00:24:32,520
eighty-five million people the UK 70

547
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,380
million people Italy's 60 million people

548
00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:36,450
South Korea 50 million people brush is a

549
00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:37,980
hundred and fifty million people they've

550
00:24:37,980 --> 00:24:40,490
got an economy smaller than Italy's

551
00:24:40,490 --> 00:24:42,780
smaller than South Korea's triple the

552
00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:44,820
population and the same and a smaller

553
00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:50,370
economy and that itself is something

554
00:24:50,370 --> 00:24:53,070
that Russian politicians are the answer

555
00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:56,430
for but it gets you to sort of the next

556
00:24:56,430 --> 00:24:58,170
question well why is their economy so

557
00:24:58,170 --> 00:25:00,750
bad especially when they float on a sea

558
00:25:00,750 --> 00:25:04,680
of oil and gas generally speaking it

559
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,870
turns out that oil and gas is a terrible

560
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:08,730
thing on which to build your economy and

561
00:25:08,730 --> 00:25:11,340
that's part of what went wrong in Russia

562
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:12,690
that's part of a bad gamble that

563
00:25:12,690 --> 00:25:14,670
Vladimir Putin made very early on in his

564
00:25:14,670 --> 00:25:17,430
presidency the other thing though that I

565
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:19,970
think is important is that oil and gas

566
00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:22,350
not only isn't a good thing to build

567
00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:25,320
your economy on the oil and gas industry

568
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,910
when it's big enough it kind of makes it

569
00:25:26,910 --> 00:25:29,880
political weather one thing they're

570
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,620
actually really for all the things

571
00:25:31,620 --> 00:25:33,570
they're not good at like they are for

572
00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:35,160
example not good at cleaning up after

573
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,970
themselves really like paper towels is

574
00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:40,590
still like the apex of what they have to

575
00:25:40,590 --> 00:25:43,350
offer in terms of oil spills I mean

576
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:45,030
they're fancy very expensive paper

577
00:25:45,030 --> 00:25:46,800
towels but it's paper towels that's what

578
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,410
they use for all the things they are not

579
00:25:49,410 --> 00:25:50,490
that good at they're not good at

580
00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:51,810
cleaning up after themselves they're not

581
00:25:51,810 --> 00:25:53,700
good at sailing to Alaska they're not

582
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:54,930
good at all sorts of stuff you think

583
00:25:54,930 --> 00:25:57,180
they'd be good at but one thing they're

584
00:25:57,180 --> 00:25:58,860
really good at is getting governments of

585
00:25:58,860 --> 00:26:00,810
all shapes and sizes to serve them to

586
00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:02,760
serve their interests as an industry in

587
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,470
a way that tends to Hubble the ability

588
00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:05,580
of that government to do a good job

589
00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:07,440
serving any other responsible purpose

590
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,050
and that dynamic to me ended up being

591
00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:13,350
fascinated fascinating setting aside

592
00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:15,690
whatever might be bad for your country

593
00:26:15,690 --> 00:26:17,580
in terms of having oil and gas

594
00:26:17,580 --> 00:26:19,530
production there what we see over and

595
00:26:19,530 --> 00:26:20,940
over and over again is that where oil

596
00:26:20,940 --> 00:26:23,820
revenues flow government tends to suffer

597
00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:26,280
and that's true even when it's tons of

598
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,910
oil revenues the founding energy

599
00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:33,660
minister of Saudi Arabia says and I

600
00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:36,390
quote all in all I wish we'd discovered

601
00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:41,100
water the founder of OPEC says as far as

602
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:44,220
he can tell oil is quote the excrement

603
00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:49,470
of the devil the founder of OPEC not

604
00:26:49,470 --> 00:26:51,840
only says that oil is poop but oil is

605
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,210
the devil's poop it's like there's

606
00:26:54,210 --> 00:26:57,090
definitely a book there right I don't I

607
00:26:57,090 --> 00:26:58,380
don't know what else is gonna be in the

608
00:26:58,380 --> 00:27:02,430
book but that is in the book and you

609
00:27:02,430 --> 00:27:04,860
know oil companies are full of regular

610
00:27:04,860 --> 00:27:07,050
people doing regular jobs both myself

611
00:27:07,050 --> 00:27:09,780
and my partner Susan we both have family

612
00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:11,160
members close family members have worked

613
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,450
in the oil industry it's nothing

614
00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:13,110
personal

615
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:14,850
whatsoever but this is an industry that

616
00:27:14,850 --> 00:27:19,260
is sort of nuking the planet 76 percent

617
00:27:19,260 --> 00:27:20,760
of carbon emissions in the United States

618
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,410
are from burning oil or burning natural

619
00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:24,480
gas it's basically we're the biggest

620
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,070
economy on earth you're talking about

621
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:27,330
more than three-quarters of our

622
00:27:27,330 --> 00:27:28,560
emissions that's the big enchilada

623
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:29,870
that's it

624
00:27:29,870 --> 00:27:34,230
oil and gas does also prop up terrible

625
00:27:34,230 --> 00:27:36,000
governments around the world and they

626
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,010
weaken democratic accountable governance

627
00:27:38,010 --> 00:27:38,790
everywhere

628
00:27:38,790 --> 00:27:41,070
they operate I think on Russia

629
00:27:41,070 --> 00:27:42,570
specifically it is also worth

630
00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:44,580
understanding how much of a lifeline the

631
00:27:44,580 --> 00:27:46,440
big majors of the oil industry and

632
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,810
ExxonMobil in particular how much of a

633
00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:50,610
lifeline they have been for what has

634
00:27:50,610 --> 00:27:53,850
morphed into basically malignant

635
00:27:53,850 --> 00:27:55,830
kleptocratic dictatorship that has tried

636
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:57,960
to reorder the world and undo all

637
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,510
Western alliances and smear itself all

638
00:28:00,510 --> 00:28:02,340
over US and all over every other Western

639
00:28:02,340 --> 00:28:04,730
democracy they can get their mitts on

640
00:28:04,730 --> 00:28:07,830
and so that's I think where we get to a

641
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:09,150
little bit of this issue of that this

642
00:28:09,150 --> 00:28:11,310
conflict we've got between rising

643
00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:15,240
authoritarianism and the rule of law but

644
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,200
I also just want to say just a couple of

645
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,890
things in closing I am really hopeful

646
00:28:21,890 --> 00:28:24,900
about the ability to do something about

647
00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:26,130
this I wouldn't have written the book of

648
00:28:26,130 --> 00:28:27,720
I didn't think there was if it was sort

649
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,900
of a can-do thing and part of what I

650
00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:32,910
think is can do about it is that I think

651
00:28:32,910 --> 00:28:34,590
it's understandable I don't think this

652
00:28:34,590 --> 00:28:37,500
is something that is 3d chess don't I

653
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:38,940
don't think it's a conspiracy theory I

654
00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:41,040
don't think it's something that is too

655
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,160
big to fathom and I think the solutions

656
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,110
about how to deal with that how to shore

657
00:28:46,110 --> 00:28:48,780
up democracy by reining in and

658
00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:50,610
containing some of the forces that

659
00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:53,880
corrode our democracy it's doable stuff

660
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,930
and the sort of one of the stories that

661
00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:59,400
I tell in the book the sort of heroic

662
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,460
story in the book that's based in the

663
00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:05,460
United States is about schoolteachers in

664
00:29:05,460 --> 00:29:07,710
the great state of Oklahoma I did a book

665
00:29:07,710 --> 00:29:09,510
tour event earlier this week in Tulsa

666
00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:12,930
was freaking fantastic 3,000 people

667
00:29:12,930 --> 00:29:14,220
coming out to see Rachel Maddow talk

668
00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:16,050
about the oil and gas industry in Tulsa

669
00:29:16,050 --> 00:29:20,760
yeah bring it it's great they said it

670
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,630
couldn't be done but in

671
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:27,600
Oklahoma is a great great great teaching

672
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,350
moment for all of us because Oklahoma is

673
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:33,480
a state where the oil and gas industry

674
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,100
is incredibly powerful and we're in many

675
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:38,700
ways that industry has co-opted and

676
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:40,830
taken over what should otherwise be

677
00:29:40,830 --> 00:29:43,080
government for the people and there's no

678
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,430
shame in that that happens literally

679
00:29:44,430 --> 00:29:47,010
everywhere oil and gas is produced in

680
00:29:47,010 --> 00:29:49,710
quantity everywhere on earth but because

681
00:29:49,710 --> 00:29:52,230
of that co-optation

682
00:29:52,230 --> 00:29:53,549
Oklahoma started to have some really

683
00:29:53,549 --> 00:29:55,080
serious problems I mean including

684
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,270
man-made earthquakes but not just that

685
00:29:57,270 --> 00:29:59,669
and the way they responded was that

686
00:29:59,669 --> 00:30:01,140
they've kind of flipped the light switch

687
00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:04,020
on their democracy and Oklahoma did not

688
00:30:04,020 --> 00:30:05,790
become an environmental Haven and

689
00:30:05,790 --> 00:30:07,679
Oklahoma did not shut down its oil and

690
00:30:07,679 --> 00:30:09,660
gas industry and oil and Oklahoma did

691
00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:12,620
not become a blue state but Oklahoma

692
00:30:12,620 --> 00:30:15,150
citizens of all ideological stripes

693
00:30:15,150 --> 00:30:17,730
decided that they needed to take back

694
00:30:17,730 --> 00:30:19,380
what their government was doing from the

695
00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:22,169
industry that was strangling it and they

696
00:30:22,169 --> 00:30:24,690
showed up in quantity led by the

697
00:30:24,690 --> 00:30:26,160
teachers and by the students who

698
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,500
supported them and they reorganized

699
00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:31,169
their state budget and I know the level

700
00:30:31,169 --> 00:30:33,510
of the gross production tax for oil and

701
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:34,740
natural gas in the state of Oklahoma

702
00:30:34,740 --> 00:30:36,150
doesn't sound like it's the thing that's

703
00:30:36,150 --> 00:30:37,860
going to save the world but when they

704
00:30:37,860 --> 00:30:39,929
turned it from 2% to 5% by

705
00:30:39,929 --> 00:30:41,669
people-powered demonstrations under the

706
00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:44,400
Rotunda in the most oil and gas captured

707
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,710
government within the United States that

708
00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:49,440
to me was the path even among those

709
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,840
Republican teachers most of them even in

710
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,090
that conservative state to know that

711
00:30:54,090 --> 00:30:58,020
this is doable stuff and I am inspired

712
00:30:58,020 --> 00:31:02,070
by that I am also humbled and inspired

713
00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:05,460
and in awe of the climate activist

714
00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:06,690
movement that's being led by young

715
00:31:06,690 --> 00:31:09,440
people right now

716
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,549
I think that it is no secret that they

717
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:19,940
will win what they are trying to do they

718
00:31:19,940 --> 00:31:23,330
are going to win and the question for

719
00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:24,710
the United States for those of us here

720
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:29,750
in the u.s. is twofold one how quickly

721
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:32,179
are we going to get there how quickly

722
00:31:32,179 --> 00:31:33,470
can we make this decision and how

723
00:31:33,470 --> 00:31:35,419
ambitious can be can we be when we make

724
00:31:35,419 --> 00:31:38,450
it but also can we rise to the occasion

725
00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:41,200
of being the biggest economy on earth

726
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,760
every Western oil major is either

727
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,350
headquartered here or needs to do lots

728
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:46,820
of business here and that means they are

729
00:31:46,820 --> 00:31:52,010
all de-facto regulated here and if the

730
00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:55,640
American public would stand up and do

731
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,650
things at the federal level to regulate

732
00:31:57,650 --> 00:31:59,690
this industry that literally props up

733
00:31:59,690 --> 00:32:03,830
despot around the world that not only is

734
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:05,960
game over for the climate in terms of

735
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,640
them getting their way but that also

736
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,070
erodes our own governance here and

737
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:12,679
everywhere else they touch if we enacted

738
00:32:12,679 --> 00:32:14,150
the reforms at the federal level which

739
00:32:14,150 --> 00:32:15,980
is something we already started to do at

740
00:32:15,980 --> 00:32:17,539
the end of the Obama administration and

741
00:32:17,539 --> 00:32:19,669
it could be done it would have a

742
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:22,640
worldwide effect in terms of shoring up

743
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,320
democracy helping us make better

744
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,020
decisions about the climate and making

745
00:32:27,020 --> 00:32:28,460
those decisions faster and with more

746
00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:30,580
ambition and it's within our reach and

747
00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:34,760
that to me is exciting and I will just

748
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,909
close with one last thought which is I

749
00:32:36,909 --> 00:32:41,090
mentioned the paper towels thing it did

750
00:32:41,090 --> 00:32:44,150
surprise me in writing the book that the

751
00:32:44,150 --> 00:32:48,530
level of technological hmm that's the

752
00:32:48,530 --> 00:32:50,990
nice way to say this the way we

753
00:32:50,990 --> 00:32:53,210
overestimate the technological capacity

754
00:32:53,210 --> 00:32:55,039
of this large cup this large cut this

755
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:56,750
large industry they're not as good as

756
00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:59,630
they think they are we overestimate

757
00:32:59,630 --> 00:33:01,120
their technological capability and we

758
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,260
underestimate their geopolitical impact

759
00:33:03,260 --> 00:33:05,780
and if we are about to go through a

760
00:33:05,780 --> 00:33:08,000
worldwide reckoning in terms of the use

761
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,000
of these fuels if we are about to have a

762
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,010
climate driven reckoning where we turn

763
00:33:13,010 --> 00:33:14,750
away from this industry at last because

764
00:33:14,750 --> 00:33:17,960
we need to obviously we're all focused

765
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,429
on what the environmental impact of that

766
00:33:19,429 --> 00:33:21,320
will be but I think it is worth thinking

767
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,580
in advance about the fact that that's

768
00:33:22,580 --> 00:33:24,230
going to have a big geopolitical impact

769
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:26,780
too because this industry does prop up

770
00:33:26,780 --> 00:33:29,150
terrible governments all over the world

771
00:33:29,150 --> 00:33:32,120
they prop up whole systems of governance

772
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,300
all around the world and if their market

773
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:38,930
share precipitously drops and if they

774
00:33:38,930 --> 00:33:41,210
lose the power that they've got both

775
00:33:41,210 --> 00:33:42,860
just in terms of their wealth and in

776
00:33:42,860 --> 00:33:44,390
terms of their influence and how much we

777
00:33:44,390 --> 00:33:46,550
need them I think we should expect that

778
00:33:46,550 --> 00:33:48,830
the boundaries of countries may change I

779
00:33:48,830 --> 00:33:51,680
think we should expect governance writ

780
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,630
large to change I think we should expect

781
00:33:53,630 --> 00:33:55,160
a number of governments around the world

782
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,800
to fall and quickly and that's not to

783
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,140
say we shouldn't do it but it means that

784
00:34:00,140 --> 00:34:01,730
when that happens when that tipping

785
00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:03,680
point comes and it will come these

786
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,050
activists are gonna win when that moment

787
00:34:06,050 --> 00:34:09,110
comes we need to be able to hold

788
00:34:09,110 --> 00:34:11,540
ourselves up as an exemplar of democracy

789
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:14,360
why democracy is the best system that

790
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,489
anybody's ever invented to show that

791
00:34:16,489 --> 00:34:17,840
it's strong that it works for the people

792
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,969
and when other forms of government are

793
00:34:19,969 --> 00:34:22,159
in decline and in collapse we're the

794
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,469
example of what you want to be and

795
00:34:25,469 --> 00:34:28,559
[Music]

796
00:34:30,460 --> 00:34:34,089
so thank you all for coming I'm super

797
00:34:34,089 --> 00:34:35,020
happy to have you here I'm gonna put

798
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:36,339
back on my glasses so now you're about

799
00:34:36,339 --> 00:34:41,199
to reappear and Alison is here and we're

800
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,210
gonna do questions over there if I fall

801
00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:45,540
down between here and there

802
00:34:45,540 --> 00:35:03,069
thank you if I blue to floor it

803
00:35:03,069 --> 00:35:04,510
I didn't bring the book over because

804
00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:05,680
when you have crutches you can't put

805
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,050
anything in your hands so if you want me

806
00:35:08,050 --> 00:35:09,609
to like reference anything I'll have to

807
00:35:09,609 --> 00:35:12,640
crawl over we'll have someone run into

808
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,230
us okay how's that sound

809
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:17,710
great there's water here okay so I think

810
00:35:17,710 --> 00:35:19,420
it goes without saying after your

811
00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:22,089
earlier reception that it is such a

812
00:35:22,089 --> 00:35:25,119
pleasure an honor and a thrill to have

813
00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:29,490
you Rachel Maddow in Chicago

814
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,110
it's in I love this city I cannot

815
00:35:38,110 --> 00:35:40,720
believe how many people are here it's

816
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:42,550
amazing I just I'm thrilled so thanks

817
00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:46,000
yeah yeah we are too and and I as you

818
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,440
were saying I don't think any of us

819
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,630
anticipated that the world at this

820
00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:54,310
moment would look feel sound like a kind

821
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:58,660
of Rachel Maddow opening of a except on

822
00:35:58,660 --> 00:36:00,400
steroids you know that everything you've

823
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,080
been talking about you know you were

824
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,890
able to say this week on your show the

825
00:36:05,890 --> 00:36:08,290
Russians did it it was the Russians you

826
00:36:08,290 --> 00:36:09,460
know after the Senate Intelligence

827
00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:12,700
report came out about infirmed previous

828
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:15,490
reports as you said a lot of the

829
00:36:15,490 --> 00:36:17,200
characters that are in the book or that

830
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:18,840
you've been talking about on the show

831
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,760
Rex Tillerson is back in the news he

832
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,700
kind of gone dormant he came back just

833
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:33,340
for the book launch supportive Dimitri

834
00:36:33,340 --> 00:36:35,590
firtash I'm so glad you found that one

835
00:36:35,590 --> 00:36:36,700
of the most interesting parts of the

836
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:38,590
book but you know he's actually the

837
00:36:38,590 --> 00:36:40,180
extradition they're trying to extradite

838
00:36:40,180 --> 00:36:45,730
him to Chicago have you got any

839
00:36:45,730 --> 00:36:49,270
Ukrainian connections or Dimitri firtash

840
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:51,910
goes on trial in Chicago I will be doing

841
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:55,170
the Rachel Maddow Show from

842
00:37:00,869 --> 00:37:05,200
so yeah I mean it must must boom I mean

843
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,849
these are terrible times but it must

844
00:37:06,849 --> 00:37:12,369
feel kind of good to you hey guys you

845
00:37:12,369 --> 00:37:14,200
know I've been talking about this yeah

846
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,760
writing about the end of the world and

847
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:22,810
now here it is I really I was thinking

848
00:37:22,810 --> 00:37:24,430
about the Russia attack and trying to

849
00:37:24,430 --> 00:37:26,800
figure out you know as I said the sort

850
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,599
of motive force for what they did would

851
00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:30,130
explain their desperation what would

852
00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:32,320
possibly make it worth it what I think

853
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,820
that we're actually trying to get out of

854
00:37:33,820 --> 00:37:35,680
that election interference I think

855
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,780
sanctions I think you can't understand

856
00:37:37,780 --> 00:37:40,770
any of it without understanding how

857
00:37:40,770 --> 00:37:43,960
difficult sanctions make it for Russia

858
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,940
specifically because they are an oil and

859
00:37:45,940 --> 00:37:48,369
gas economy and their own oil and gas

860
00:37:48,369 --> 00:37:50,770
companies are terrible because Putin is

861
00:37:50,770 --> 00:37:52,119
terrible

862
00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:53,740
like you kind of have to get all those

863
00:37:53,740 --> 00:37:55,270
pieces of the story but it does kind of

864
00:37:55,270 --> 00:37:57,550
fall into place I wasn't trying to

865
00:37:57,550 --> 00:37:59,080
explain what Trump was going to get

866
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,880
impeached for that was just like a bonus

867
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,040
icing on the cake I am curious because

868
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,109
when you any as you were kind of closing

869
00:38:08,109 --> 00:38:09,880
and bringing this together and talking

870
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,500
about the stakes in this and thinking

871
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:14,650
about democracy authoritarianism you

872
00:38:14,650 --> 00:38:16,599
know you characterize the influence of

873
00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:19,450
oil and gas on politics as petroleum

874
00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:21,880
powered governance saying that it has

875
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,970
twin engines corruption in which the

876
00:38:24,970 --> 00:38:26,530
industry effectively effectively

877
00:38:26,530 --> 00:38:29,530
captures politicians and then capture in

878
00:38:29,530 --> 00:38:32,290
which the industry effectively comes to

879
00:38:32,290 --> 00:38:35,020
own the government and when you look at

880
00:38:35,020 --> 00:38:37,510
the operations of oil and gas in Russia

881
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:39,640
when you look at the operations of oil

882
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,140
and gas and their influence in the

883
00:38:41,140 --> 00:38:42,970
United States and of course this book is

884
00:38:42,970 --> 00:38:45,430
about how they intertwine and take that

885
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:48,609
step back as you're asking us to do what

886
00:38:48,609 --> 00:38:50,080
are the differences and are the

887
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,470
differences of degree or are they of

888
00:38:53,470 --> 00:38:57,550
kind between Russia and us yes the thing

889
00:38:57,550 --> 00:39:00,700
that Putin recognized about the oil and

890
00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:03,460
gas industry I mean Russia really is

891
00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:05,560
floating on a sea of oil and gas they

892
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,330
they have a ton of it and they were

893
00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:09,190
among the first places in the world

894
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:11,710
to ever drill it in the former Soviet

895
00:39:11,710 --> 00:39:15,700
Union and the Western Siberia noil sands

896
00:39:15,700 --> 00:39:18,220
are incredibly easy to drill you don't

897
00:39:18,220 --> 00:39:20,799
need very fancy technology in order to

898
00:39:20,799 --> 00:39:23,650
do it and so it's always been a stable

899
00:39:23,650 --> 00:39:26,890
part of even the Soviet economy before

900
00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:29,500
the Russian Federation but when when

901
00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:31,630
Putin got into power that's obviously

902
00:39:31,630 --> 00:39:33,760
the time when Russia is in transition

903
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,890
post Yeltsin right

904
00:39:35,890 --> 00:39:39,039
and Putin sort of has a decision to make

905
00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:41,559
as to whether or not Russia is going to

906
00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:46,210
economically liberalize enough to have a

907
00:39:46,210 --> 00:39:48,339
diversified economy they're gonna have

908
00:39:48,339 --> 00:39:50,319
oil and gas at some level no matter what

909
00:39:50,319 --> 00:39:51,970
but in order to have a diversified

910
00:39:51,970 --> 00:39:54,910
economy and a well-balanced economy you

911
00:39:54,910 --> 00:39:58,000
kind of need like property rights rule

912
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,520
of law a legal system that isn't just

913
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,309
used to kill your enemies and and give

914
00:40:03,309 --> 00:40:07,599
favors to your kids you need a lack of

915
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:10,180
general corruption at everything from

916
00:40:10,180 --> 00:40:12,730
the permitting process to the election

917
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:16,029
process and that was it seemed terrible

918
00:40:16,029 --> 00:40:19,029
to Vladimir Putin the idea that you'd

919
00:40:19,029 --> 00:40:20,200
have to go through these sort of

920
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:21,010
nation-building

921
00:40:21,010 --> 00:40:23,670
things in order to develop a modern

922
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:27,339
capitalist diversified economy was not

923
00:40:27,339 --> 00:40:29,380
going to work for him and so he decided

924
00:40:29,380 --> 00:40:32,619
to kind of go all in on oil and gas to

925
00:40:32,619 --> 00:40:37,200
the basic basically to the extent where

926
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,619
he took over the industry so that it

927
00:40:41,619 --> 00:40:43,270
could essentially be used as a power of

928
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:45,400
that as a tool of the presidency right

929
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,099
oil is power oil is corrupt and so

930
00:40:48,099 --> 00:40:50,710
Russia is a weak country with a weak

931
00:40:50,710 --> 00:40:52,869
economy which that what it would take to

932
00:40:52,869 --> 00:40:54,549
make it a strong economy he can't bear

933
00:40:54,549 --> 00:40:56,619
so it's gonna be a weak economy having a

934
00:40:56,619 --> 00:40:58,390
weak economy having a weak political

935
00:40:58,390 --> 00:41:00,309
structure that's essentially evolved

936
00:41:00,309 --> 00:41:01,329
into just this kleptocratic

937
00:41:01,329 --> 00:41:03,460
authoritarianism now there's not much to

938
00:41:03,460 --> 00:41:05,230
offer and it's not that's not the way

939
00:41:05,230 --> 00:41:06,400
you become a stronger and more

940
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,289
influential country but he still sees

941
00:41:08,289 --> 00:41:11,339
Russia as having an international scale

942
00:41:11,339 --> 00:41:13,839
but having ambitions of international

943
00:41:13,839 --> 00:41:15,609
scale and so the reason that oil and gas

944
00:41:15,609 --> 00:41:17,980
was so attractive to him as something he

945
00:41:17,980 --> 00:41:19,869
was willing to rely on in its entirety

946
00:41:19,869 --> 00:41:22,359
was because if he could control them and

947
00:41:22,359 --> 00:41:22,779
wheel

948
00:41:22,779 --> 00:41:26,140
his tools he could use them as weapons

949
00:41:26,140 --> 00:41:28,569
against other countries and that's what

950
00:41:28,569 --> 00:41:30,369
he's done in the near abroad in terms of

951
00:41:30,369 --> 00:41:31,839
all the former Soviet states Ukraine

952
00:41:31,839 --> 00:41:33,519
first among them but that's also what

953
00:41:33,519 --> 00:41:35,349
he's doing with Western Europe I mean he

954
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:37,659
can literally turn the lights off at

955
00:41:37,659 --> 00:41:41,469
will in Germany and in Ukraine and in

956
00:41:41,469 --> 00:41:44,669
lots of other places and that power is

957
00:41:44,669 --> 00:41:47,289
irresistible to him and it's really the

958
00:41:47,289 --> 00:41:50,199
only power that he's got and so to see

959
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:52,689
oil and gas used as a weapon there and

960
00:41:52,689 --> 00:41:55,449
to see him make the because he wanted to

961
00:41:55,449 --> 00:41:57,189
control it himself he couldn't allow for

962
00:41:57,189 --> 00:41:59,349
there to be good companies run by strong

963
00:41:59,349 --> 00:42:00,909
guys who got rich doing it because they

964
00:42:00,909 --> 00:42:01,869
were good at the oil and gas business

965
00:42:01,869 --> 00:42:03,969
anytime anybody got good at it he would

966
00:42:03,969 --> 00:42:06,429
lock them up take their company and fold

967
00:42:06,429 --> 00:42:08,709
it into Ross and after gas problem so

968
00:42:08,709 --> 00:42:10,419
their help they have a terrible oil and

969
00:42:10,419 --> 00:42:11,619
gas sector even though it's all they've

970
00:42:11,619 --> 00:42:14,289
got its run by like his judo partners

971
00:42:14,289 --> 00:42:15,939
for money with seven it's all these guys

972
00:42:15,939 --> 00:42:17,890
with like noses that go this way and you

973
00:42:17,890 --> 00:42:19,900
know kicked dogs for fun on their coffee

974
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:22,079
breaks I mean it's just they're terrible

975
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:25,719
the Gazprom lost over 300 billion

976
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,880
dollars of its valuation since this guy

977
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,529
Alexey Miller has been in charge but

978
00:42:29,529 --> 00:42:30,729
he's still in charge because he's doing

979
00:42:30,729 --> 00:42:32,859
exactly what Putin wants them to do with

980
00:42:32,859 --> 00:42:34,900
that company it's they're terrible in

981
00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:38,140
order to drill oil and gas in Russia as

982
00:42:38,140 --> 00:42:40,599
they run out of the easy oil and gas

983
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:41,919
that they were used to as they need to

984
00:42:41,919 --> 00:42:43,779
get to more challenging drilling

985
00:42:43,779 --> 00:42:45,819
locations like the Arctic sea and all

986
00:42:45,819 --> 00:42:46,959
these other places they want to drill

987
00:42:46,959 --> 00:42:48,640
they can't do it with the terrible

988
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,829
companies they have they need to tap

989
00:42:50,829 --> 00:42:52,599
Western experts this is one ant with

990
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:53,709
sanction this is one of the ironies

991
00:42:53,709 --> 00:42:55,659
right the rhetoric in the United States

992
00:42:55,659 --> 00:42:58,150
in some circles has long been that we

993
00:42:58,150 --> 00:43:00,699
are dependent on foreign oil and in fact

994
00:43:00,699 --> 00:43:03,039
foreign or at least Russian oil is

995
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:06,519
highly dependent on our oil and and our

996
00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:08,859
oil expertise as they're saying it's a

997
00:43:08,859 --> 00:43:11,140
form of people like Rex Tillerson and

998
00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:13,689
Exxon yeah and not in it turned like it

999
00:43:13,689 --> 00:43:15,189
turns out there's like these amazing

1000
00:43:15,189 --> 00:43:18,189
stories to tell about that I mean so

1001
00:43:18,189 --> 00:43:21,400
Russia after what I was describing there

1002
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:22,989
in terms of Yanukovych turning tail and

1003
00:43:22,989 --> 00:43:26,979
fleeing and Putin being really mad right

1004
00:43:26,979 --> 00:43:28,359
what we all know what happened right

1005
00:43:28,359 --> 00:43:30,039
after that right Putin invaded Ukraine

1006
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:33,009
and took part of it and in response the

1007
00:43:33,009 --> 00:43:36,230
u.s. put sanctions on them and in 2014

1008
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:39,590
who Rosneft had just done a half

1009
00:43:39,590 --> 00:43:41,900
trillion dollar oil deal the largest oil

1010
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:45,080
deal in the history of deals Ross left

1011
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,090
of Justin a huge half trillion dollar

1012
00:43:47,090 --> 00:43:49,100
deal with Exxon to go do some of this

1013
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:51,470
challenging drilling up in the Arctic

1014
00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:54,800
among other places and Rex Tillerson is

1015
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,119
the one who did that deal lots of other

1016
00:43:56,119 --> 00:43:58,010
Western executives have had a really

1017
00:43:58,010 --> 00:43:59,869
hard time in Russia but Rex figured it

1018
00:43:59,869 --> 00:44:06,530
out somehow he didn't Putin somehow saw

1019
00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:08,660
eye to eye he was able to do this giant

1020
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:10,460
deal and they were up there drilling in

1021
00:44:10,460 --> 00:44:14,500
the Arctic sea as or in the Kara Sea as

1022
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:17,180
US sanctions on Russia were going into

1023
00:44:17,180 --> 00:44:19,460
effect as US sanctions on the head of

1024
00:44:19,460 --> 00:44:21,440
Russia's national oil company we're

1025
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,270
going into effect and Rex and Exxon are

1026
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:24,530
still there going we need a couple more

1027
00:44:24,530 --> 00:44:26,510
days we need a couple more days we have

1028
00:44:26,510 --> 00:44:28,430
we need an environmental waiver we're

1029
00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:30,080
worried about cleaning up properly

1030
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,910
because of the birds we're really

1031
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:34,010
worried about the we can't leave and

1032
00:44:34,010 --> 00:44:35,420
they're trying to get one more day one

1033
00:44:35,420 --> 00:44:37,040
more day one more day one more extension

1034
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,810
because they're trying to hit oil before

1035
00:44:38,810 --> 00:44:42,770
they go and they do they hit oil and

1036
00:44:42,770 --> 00:44:44,480
then the next day sanctions yanked them

1037
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,550
out of there and Russian oil and gas

1038
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:48,770
companies suck so badly that even with

1039
00:44:48,770 --> 00:44:51,260
Exxon having drilled the well and found

1040
00:44:51,260 --> 00:44:53,270
the oil and pointed them toward it they

1041
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:56,450
can't get it out of the ground and so

1042
00:44:56,450 --> 00:44:58,460
since that day with that half trillion

1043
00:44:58,460 --> 00:45:00,380
dollar deal on ice because of u.s.

1044
00:45:00,380 --> 00:45:01,480
foreign policy

1045
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,980
Russia has been up against it this is

1046
00:45:03,980 --> 00:45:05,090
the only thing they've got in their

1047
00:45:05,090 --> 00:45:06,230
economy how are they going to get that

1048
00:45:06,230 --> 00:45:08,570
oil they need this they need Exxon they

1049
00:45:08,570 --> 00:45:10,220
need these Western companies well u.s.

1050
00:45:10,220 --> 00:45:11,690
foreign policy says they can't use them

1051
00:45:11,690 --> 00:45:14,119
well who should our guy who we just

1052
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:16,430
installed in the White House be put in

1053
00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:19,369
charge of u.s. foreign policy then how

1054
00:45:19,369 --> 00:45:21,700
about Rex

1055
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:25,069
it's an existential threat to them it

1056
00:45:25,069 --> 00:45:27,079
was worth it right man they also did

1057
00:45:27,079 --> 00:45:28,999
things despite sanctions like the

1058
00:45:28,999 --> 00:45:31,249
annexation of Crimea and their

1059
00:45:31,249 --> 00:45:34,220
developing oil and drilling there and I

1060
00:45:34,220 --> 00:45:36,140
wondered but reading that story it's

1061
00:45:36,140 --> 00:45:38,749
about you know what Russia is trying to

1062
00:45:38,749 --> 00:45:41,239
do to maintain this power and hold on to

1063
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,549
it and it ensure a steady supply of it

1064
00:45:43,549 --> 00:45:46,759
because it is all power to them but it's

1065
00:45:46,759 --> 00:45:49,339
also about Exxon and Tillerson and

1066
00:45:49,339 --> 00:45:50,779
others trying to figure out how do we

1067
00:45:50,779 --> 00:45:52,880
work around the edges of these sanctions

1068
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,289
and what are the loopholes so we can

1069
00:45:54,289 --> 00:45:57,410
continue to do this and it struck me in

1070
00:45:57,410 --> 00:45:59,509
as all of this is coming together into

1071
00:45:59,509 --> 00:46:02,420
that great big you know the the Rachel

1072
00:46:02,420 --> 00:46:04,539
Maddow prophecy that is now on earth

1073
00:46:04,539 --> 00:46:08,720
said that there's something similar in

1074
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:14,019
the way that President Trump and and

1075
00:46:14,019 --> 00:46:16,519
some of the people around him are kind

1076
00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:17,660
of you know right now they're not

1077
00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:19,460
talking about the content of the

1078
00:46:19,460 --> 00:46:21,079
impeachment and all the news that is

1079
00:46:21,079 --> 00:46:23,329
coming out Gordon Sandlin just now is

1080
00:46:23,329 --> 00:46:25,039
saying that he will go before Congress

1081
00:46:25,039 --> 00:46:27,950
and talk about the quid pro quo they're

1082
00:46:27,950 --> 00:46:30,559
talking about the legality of this and

1083
00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:32,180
kind of refusing it and that is

1084
00:46:32,180 --> 00:46:34,819
something that this president has seemed

1085
00:46:34,819 --> 00:46:39,349
very good at to kind of test guardrails

1086
00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:41,210
and then push right through them and

1087
00:46:41,210 --> 00:46:43,309
ignore them and so as we're moving

1088
00:46:43,309 --> 00:46:46,009
forward and as you're watching this what

1089
00:46:46,009 --> 00:46:47,719
do you think to come back to that

1090
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,690
question of if we are the kind of stop

1091
00:46:50,690 --> 00:46:53,390
you know this is where it stops our

1092
00:46:53,390 --> 00:46:55,339
democracy we have to be the best

1093
00:46:55,339 --> 00:46:57,589
what should the Democrats be doing to

1094
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:59,960
try and enforce those kind of democratic

1095
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:02,719
guardrails against them when he

1096
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,489
seemingly does not seem to care about

1097
00:47:04,489 --> 00:47:06,259
them or even acknowledge them yeah I

1098
00:47:06,259 --> 00:47:08,599
mean I what's been interesting I think

1099
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:10,039
with the president it's a very astute

1100
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:12,920
point I think is that I feel like what

1101
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,749
we've watched in real time over the

1102
00:47:14,749 --> 00:47:17,719
course of his presidency is that he

1103
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,180
learns where these democratic norms are

1104
00:47:20,180 --> 00:47:22,819
in real time by crossing them because he

1105
00:47:22,819 --> 00:47:26,719
didn't know they were there like I'm not

1106
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,700
supposed to just give security

1107
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:31,100
clearances to my kids

1108
00:47:31,100 --> 00:47:34,170
this is a problem oh you're bothered by

1109
00:47:34,170 --> 00:47:34,440
this

1110
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,030
yeah I'm given security clearances to

1111
00:47:36,030 --> 00:47:38,910
everybody you know like he learns what

1112
00:47:38,910 --> 00:47:41,369
if the problem learns what's illegal or

1113
00:47:41,369 --> 00:47:43,860
what the problem is by doing it and then

1114
00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:47,970
decides to make a virtue of it and so

1115
00:47:47,970 --> 00:47:49,920
that makes it hard to figure out like

1116
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,950
usually when people do stuff in politics

1117
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:55,550
that's bad like that getting caught is

1118
00:47:55,550 --> 00:47:58,440
the start of it getting fixed but in

1119
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,420
this case getting caught is the start of

1120
00:48:00,420 --> 00:48:02,220
the Republican Party trying to celebrate

1121
00:48:02,220 --> 00:48:04,430
that at that crime is a new virtue and

1122
00:48:04,430 --> 00:48:14,730
that shamelessness about about about

1123
00:48:14,730 --> 00:48:16,010
what they're doing wrong

1124
00:48:16,010 --> 00:48:19,230
makes it hard I mean our most of our

1125
00:48:19,230 --> 00:48:21,960
tools within the Democrat within our

1126
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,360
American democratic process are based on

1127
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,030
shame that if you do this you will have

1128
00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:28,800
to disclose it and once you disclose it

1129
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,420
people will criticize you for it and you

1130
00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:31,980
will be ashamed and that is the

1131
00:48:31,980 --> 00:48:33,390
disincentive for you to do the thing in

1132
00:48:33,390 --> 00:48:35,940
the first place well not if you don't

1133
00:48:35,940 --> 00:48:40,830
have any shame so it's hard but I mean

1134
00:48:40,830 --> 00:48:44,130
the the thing I am I the thing I see the

1135
00:48:44,130 --> 00:48:46,410
Democrats doing that I think is

1136
00:48:46,410 --> 00:48:48,930
unavoidable but also keeps me up a

1137
00:48:48,930 --> 00:48:50,760
little bit at night is that they are

1138
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,359
taking the things that used to be rules

1139
00:48:54,359 --> 00:48:57,540
that the president has gleefully broken

1140
00:48:57,540 --> 00:48:59,430
and that the Republican Party and the

1141
00:48:59,430 --> 00:49:01,170
president's supporters have tried to

1142
00:49:01,170 --> 00:49:04,109
turn into virtues because he has broken

1143
00:49:04,109 --> 00:49:05,700
those things there

1144
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:08,040
the Democrats are now looking at those

1145
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:09,270
rules and thinking about making them

1146
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:11,700
into laws the things that you were just

1147
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:13,170
supposed to not do because they were

1148
00:49:13,170 --> 00:49:15,000
disgusting or because they were

1149
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,070
politically unpalatable you will now not

1150
00:49:17,070 --> 00:49:20,910
be allowed to do and that's probably

1151
00:49:20,910 --> 00:49:26,760
necessary but it also change our

1152
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,770
democratic system and I don't want the

1153
00:49:31,770 --> 00:49:34,170
judiciary to be the only check on our

1154
00:49:34,170 --> 00:49:38,450
political officials especially

1155
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:42,970
because I'm very worried about the

1156
00:49:42,970 --> 00:49:44,470
direction of the justice department

1157
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:48,430
right now I mean the the biggest norm

1158
00:49:48,430 --> 00:49:50,230
that has been broken in this

1159
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:52,180
administration I think has actually not

1160
00:49:52,180 --> 00:49:53,680
been broken by the president but by the

1161
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,040
Attorney General and the most serious

1162
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,720
thing that we have to worry about in

1163
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:00,730
terms of the drift of our democracy

1164
00:50:00,730 --> 00:50:03,460
right now is I think the use of the US

1165
00:50:03,460 --> 00:50:06,760
Justice Department to punish the

1166
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,320
president's political opponents and

1167
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:14,830
reward his political allies that that is

1168
00:50:14,830 --> 00:50:16,600
something for which a former attorney

1169
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,160
general named John Mitchell went to

1170
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,020
prison in the 1970s and I'm I feel like

1171
00:50:23,020 --> 00:50:25,630
if John Mitchell were alive right now

1172
00:50:25,630 --> 00:50:27,700
and working in the Justice Department

1173
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:29,650
his only worry would be how fast he was

1174
00:50:29,650 --> 00:50:33,190
getting promoted and I'm very very

1175
00:50:33,190 --> 00:50:34,960
concerned about that and you couple that

1176
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,390
with the sort of neat this feeling among

1177
00:50:37,390 --> 00:50:38,980
the Democrats that this stuff ought to

1178
00:50:38,980 --> 00:50:40,360
be illegal so nobody else can get away

1179
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,150
with it the way Trump has those those

1180
00:50:43,150 --> 00:50:44,610
things pull me in opposite directions

1181
00:50:44,610 --> 00:50:49,300
mm-hmm yeah I you know I an audience

1182
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:52,030
question for you there's a number of

1183
00:50:52,030 --> 00:50:53,830
things to be worrying about but there's

1184
00:50:53,830 --> 00:50:56,290
also this question from Vicki Fogerty if

1185
00:50:56,290 --> 00:50:58,630
and you've answered this already but

1186
00:50:58,630 --> 00:51:01,150
since as you say everything's moving so

1187
00:51:01,150 --> 00:51:02,920
quickly I curious to know what your

1188
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,130
answer is now low these three days later

1189
00:51:06,130 --> 00:51:08,770
Vicki Fogerty asks if the evidence is

1190
00:51:08,770 --> 00:51:10,300
there for impeachment do you believe the

1191
00:51:10,300 --> 00:51:12,400
republican-controlled Senate will

1192
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,160
impeach so that's the first part what

1193
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,010
will the Senate do yeah I have no idea I

1194
00:51:18,010 --> 00:51:20,140
mean it's very easy I think to look at

1195
00:51:20,140 --> 00:51:22,060
Mitch McConnell from a distance and be

1196
00:51:22,060 --> 00:51:24,570
like yeah okay

1197
00:51:24,570 --> 00:51:28,480
but I also I do feel like we are in a

1198
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,310
special moment and it is worth

1199
00:51:30,310 --> 00:51:33,820
appreciating the unique nature of the

1200
00:51:33,820 --> 00:51:34,930
thing that our country is going through

1201
00:51:34,930 --> 00:51:37,030
right now I mean President Trump has

1202
00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:39,040
been very controversial since before his

1203
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,380
election and the idea that he is now

1204
00:51:41,380 --> 00:51:42,940
being impeached in some ways I think

1205
00:51:42,940 --> 00:51:45,520
feels inevitable feels like you know a

1206
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,440
relief for people who have been critical

1207
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,760
of his behavior but impeachment is

1208
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,610
is is a hen's tooth I mean it's a really

1209
00:51:54,610 --> 00:51:58,650
rare thing it was Andrew Johnson in 1867

1210
00:51:58,650 --> 00:52:01,120
keep me honest I think they tried to

1211
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,670
impeach him in 67 and they failed and

1212
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:05,050
then they went back with like exactly

1213
00:52:05,050 --> 00:52:06,940
the same articles innate to 1868 and

1214
00:52:06,940 --> 00:52:09,850
they got him then and Johnson was not

1215
00:52:09,850 --> 00:52:12,430
removed because of Furth for want of one

1216
00:52:12,430 --> 00:52:14,020
vote in the Senate so that was the house

1217
00:52:14,020 --> 00:52:15,520
impeaching him the Senate not removing

1218
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,470
him you have to get to the 90s before we

1219
00:52:17,470 --> 00:52:19,990
do it again Richard Nixon resigned

1220
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:21,460
without being impeached yes they were

1221
00:52:21,460 --> 00:52:23,350
drawing up impeachment articles but he

1222
00:52:23,350 --> 00:52:25,150
resigned rather than face that so it's

1223
00:52:25,150 --> 00:52:27,070
Andrew Johnson and Richard and and Bill

1224
00:52:27,070 --> 00:52:29,320
Clinton that's it that's the only

1225
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,360
history that we've got as a country with

1226
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,070
impeachment and if you think that you

1227
00:52:33,070 --> 00:52:34,630
can extrapolate from those two examples

1228
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:37,150
right to understand you know what's

1229
00:52:37,150 --> 00:52:39,820
normal but if the Republican if the

1230
00:52:39,820 --> 00:52:42,850
Senate does not yeah in vote to impeach

1231
00:52:42,850 --> 00:52:44,530
what does that do to the Republican

1232
00:52:44,530 --> 00:52:46,150
Party that's the second half of the case

1233
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:49,180
well I don't I mean I don't I don't know

1234
00:52:49,180 --> 00:52:50,920
what's going to happen I don't know when

1235
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,050
the Democrats are going to take their

1236
00:52:53,050 --> 00:52:54,190
impeachment vote and I don't know what

1237
00:52:54,190 --> 00:52:55,450
they're gonna try to impeach him on I

1238
00:52:55,450 --> 00:52:57,640
think the number of articles that they

1239
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,140
try to impeach him on may end up being

1240
00:52:59,140 --> 00:53:00,790
very important just in terms of the game

1241
00:53:00,790 --> 00:53:03,070
theory of all of this in terms of the

1242
00:53:03,070 --> 00:53:04,690
numbers of Republicans who may find

1243
00:53:04,690 --> 00:53:06,940
something in an article three that they

1244
00:53:06,940 --> 00:53:10,030
didn't like in an article two when it

1245
00:53:10,030 --> 00:53:12,370
gets to the US Senate I think that most

1246
00:53:12,370 --> 00:53:14,350
democratic senators will likely vote to

1247
00:53:14,350 --> 00:53:17,260
remove I think that Republican senators

1248
00:53:17,260 --> 00:53:19,510
are basically thought to not have any

1249
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:21,340
chance of that but I also feel like we

1250
00:53:21,340 --> 00:53:22,780
should be humble about that prediction

1251
00:53:22,780 --> 00:53:24,190
I don't know what's gonna happen we

1252
00:53:24,190 --> 00:53:25,300
don't know what's gonna come out and

1253
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:27,340
preachments only been going on for three

1254
00:53:27,340 --> 00:53:28,690
weeks now and look how much we've

1255
00:53:28,690 --> 00:53:33,540
learned we didn't even know Igor

1256
00:53:36,220 --> 00:53:38,150
did you guys see the picture that

1257
00:53:38,150 --> 00:53:40,970
circulated today which is Igor and Lev

1258
00:53:40,970 --> 00:53:46,010
and Mike Huckabee and Igor or love again

1259
00:53:46,010 --> 00:53:47,060
I'm sorry I don't know which one of them

1260
00:53:47,060 --> 00:53:53,630
is literally holding a bag of money is

1261
00:53:53,630 --> 00:53:57,920
this Halloween costume is it I don't

1262
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,340
know what will happen I think listen if

1263
00:54:01,340 --> 00:54:04,670
Mitch McConnell was never going to do

1264
00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:05,960
anything and he knew that from the

1265
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,200
beginning no matter what came out

1266
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,310
weren't you surprised when he came out

1267
00:54:10,310 --> 00:54:11,870
and said in an interview the other day

1268
00:54:11,870 --> 00:54:13,670
like actually we will be forced to take

1269
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:15,320
this up in the Senate as I understand

1270
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:16,490
the impeachment process but you don't

1271
00:54:16,490 --> 00:54:17,810
have a choice we got to bring it up now

1272
00:54:17,810 --> 00:54:19,280
he very quickly said now I don't know

1273
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,080
how long that means we'll spend on it

1274
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,820
and so maybe that means he convenes the

1275
00:54:22,820 --> 00:54:24,320
impeachment trial adjourns it and it's

1276
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,480
over in the blink of an eye but he could

1277
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,280
have Merrick garland did this thing just

1278
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:28,880
as easily

1279
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:30,470
I mean Mitch McConnell is not that

1280
00:54:30,470 --> 00:54:32,300
worried about the niceties of Senate

1281
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:33,860
procedure when it comes to getting

1282
00:54:33,860 --> 00:54:35,300
something important that he wants for

1283
00:54:35,300 --> 00:54:37,130
partisan purposes and I say that with

1284
00:54:37,130 --> 00:54:41,150
great deal of admiration but he could

1285
00:54:41,150 --> 00:54:43,040
have just said no there's no chance

1286
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,930
we're not taking it up don't bother he

1287
00:54:44,930 --> 00:54:47,180
didn't which means he's keeping a door

1288
00:54:47,180 --> 00:54:50,540
open for himself and I just don't think

1289
00:54:50,540 --> 00:54:52,010
we should prejudge any stuff of this I

1290
00:54:52,010 --> 00:54:53,990
think we need to have eyes open I think

1291
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:56,780
that Republican I think that Republican

1292
00:54:56,780 --> 00:54:59,120
politicians and Democratic politicians

1293
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,400
right now could both benefit from our

1294
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,530
high expectations and lack of cynicism

1295
00:55:03,530 --> 00:55:06,200
about this process expect the best and

1296
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,140
the most for almost all of these

1297
00:55:09,140 --> 00:55:10,850
politicians what they do in this

1298
00:55:10,850 --> 00:55:12,920
impeachment process will be in the first

1299
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,170
paragraph of their obituary and they all

1300
00:55:15,170 --> 00:55:18,680
know it and that has a tendency to focus

1301
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,630
a person's eyes on the horizon rather

1302
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:22,610
than on their own feet and I think that

1303
00:55:22,610 --> 00:55:24,980
we I mean if you are a dyed-in-the-wool

1304
00:55:24,980 --> 00:55:27,350
Democrat or super liberal super

1305
00:55:27,350 --> 00:55:30,200
progressive or the opposite expect the

1306
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,600
most and demand the most of people on

1307
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:33,890
both sides of the aisle right here this

1308
00:55:33,890 --> 00:55:35,540
really isn't supposed to be a partisan

1309
00:55:35,540 --> 00:55:37,490
thing this is supposed to be a patriotic

1310
00:55:37,490 --> 00:55:39,020
thing and I think we should feel solemn

1311
00:55:39,020 --> 00:55:41,410
about that

1312
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:49,710
but it's hard not to shrug at some of

1313
00:55:49,710 --> 00:55:52,110
the high jinks there are some hijinks

1314
00:55:52,110 --> 00:55:54,690
yes yes the tagline of your show so I

1315
00:55:54,690 --> 00:55:57,600
want to move away from love and he or

1316
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,510
Gore and Rudy and Mitch to talk about

1317
00:56:00,510 --> 00:56:03,330
you the tagline in their show is trying

1318
00:56:03,330 --> 00:56:04,430
to increase the amount of useful

1319
00:56:04,430 --> 00:56:06,840
information in the world so you do deal

1320
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,660
in reason and information facts rational

1321
00:56:09,660 --> 00:56:12,450
arguments you try to ground us you know

1322
00:56:12,450 --> 00:56:15,210
give us that solid solid standing but

1323
00:56:15,210 --> 00:56:17,310
people I don't know how many people that

1324
00:56:17,310 --> 00:56:18,870
I told you were coming who were

1325
00:56:18,870 --> 00:56:22,020
immediately like I guess you know

1326
00:56:22,020 --> 00:56:26,190
shocked so excited and then said I get

1327
00:56:26,190 --> 00:56:28,800
so worked up watching this show oh I

1328
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,170
mean in fact I witnessed this I I hope

1329
00:56:31,170 --> 00:56:32,940
this isn't tiem I you know I dated

1330
00:56:32,940 --> 00:56:35,670
someone briefly who was a big Rachel

1331
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:36,000
Maddow

1332
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,820
fan watched the show and get enormous

1333
00:56:38,820 --> 00:56:40,830
Lee worked up like this and this is not

1334
00:56:40,830 --> 00:56:42,570
the reason we stopped dating but I did

1335
00:56:42,570 --> 00:56:45,210
at some point feel like Rachel Maddow is

1336
00:56:45,210 --> 00:56:46,980
a bigger presence in this relationship

1337
00:56:46,980 --> 00:56:50,030
[Laughter]

1338
00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:53,490
[Applause]

1339
00:56:53,490 --> 00:56:59,460
[Laughter]

1340
00:57:00,620 --> 00:57:03,300
wait can we talk a little bit about the

1341
00:57:03,300 --> 00:57:05,040
nature of the worked up like angry

1342
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,380
anxious upset I think all of the above

1343
00:57:07,380 --> 00:57:08,850
and so what I'm wondering is like you

1344
00:57:08,850 --> 00:57:11,160
know your your reason and then the

1345
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:12,870
emotion and the reason what do you make

1346
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:14,490
of that emotion that emotional response

1347
00:57:14,490 --> 00:57:15,810
because I don't think that's what you're

1348
00:57:15,810 --> 00:57:18,570
necessarily going for oh no I don't I'm

1349
00:57:18,570 --> 00:57:20,310
this is this concept that you're

1350
00:57:20,310 --> 00:57:25,350
describing to me is new to me I I mean I

1351
00:57:25,350 --> 00:57:28,770
I have friends and like friends parents

1352
00:57:28,770 --> 00:57:30,900
in particular who say I can't watch you

1353
00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:33,950
at night because then I can't go to bed

1354
00:57:33,950 --> 00:57:35,430
sorry I got it

1355
00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:37,950
and so I listen in the morning or watch

1356
00:57:37,950 --> 00:57:39,240
in the morning because it's easier for

1357
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,510
me and that I just thought that's you

1358
00:57:42,510 --> 00:57:44,340
know like I can't have chocolate after

1359
00:57:44,340 --> 00:57:49,860
5:00 was a constitutional thing I didn't

1360
00:57:49,860 --> 00:57:52,560
know it was a widespread phenomenon

1361
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,450
she was saying that I don't know I mean

1362
00:57:54,450 --> 00:58:00,690
I am how do I say this I I am a crier I

1363
00:58:00,690 --> 00:58:03,770
am a person who easily I just I've

1364
00:58:03,770 --> 00:58:05,820
either leak ride whenever I hear the

1365
00:58:05,820 --> 00:58:08,490
national anthem I cry whenever I take

1366
00:58:08,490 --> 00:58:10,260
the subway if somebody is busking in the

1367
00:58:10,260 --> 00:58:11,840
subway even if they're terrible

1368
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,080
immediately waterworks I just like that

1369
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,040
and in that way I sometimes show emotion

1370
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,950
on TV without wanting to because I can't

1371
00:58:22,950 --> 00:58:24,510
control it I mean I have little tricks

1372
00:58:24,510 --> 00:58:25,950
and stuff but I can't really control it

1373
00:58:25,950 --> 00:58:28,650
but aside from that being an easy crier

1374
00:58:28,650 --> 00:58:32,640
I'm not that emotional a person and I

1375
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,850
don't think it helps me convey the stuff

1376
00:58:35,850 --> 00:58:38,220
that I want to convey in the show to

1377
00:58:38,220 --> 00:58:41,280
yell it or to have a fight with somebody

1378
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,310
about it or to you know pound the table

1379
00:58:44,310 --> 00:58:45,600
I mean I know there's a little bit of

1380
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:46,980
that because sometimes I get a little

1381
00:58:46,980 --> 00:58:48,990
wound up in what I'm doing but I I

1382
00:58:48,990 --> 00:58:50,970
mostly I'm trying to convey information

1383
00:58:50,970 --> 00:58:53,250
and so to the extent that what that is

1384
00:58:53,250 --> 00:58:55,740
doing is creating a motion I have no

1385
00:58:55,740 --> 00:58:58,260
idea what to do with that I don't I'm

1386
00:58:58,260 --> 00:59:07,230
not I'm not trying to upset you I am

1387
00:59:07,230 --> 00:59:08,970
totally happy okay

1388
00:59:08,970 --> 00:59:10,230
okay I want to ask you another question

1389
00:59:10,230 --> 00:59:12,690
about you you know you blend this like

1390
00:59:12,690 --> 00:59:16,680
incredible wonkish attention to detail

1391
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,920
with this the satirist sense of you know

1392
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,080
the big picture and like weaving the

1393
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,770
story together and doing it with all

1394
00:59:25,770 --> 00:59:30,150
this wit and glee and you know just

1395
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:32,040
energy it's really remarkable to watch

1396
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,260
and so you did a PhD in political

1397
00:59:34,260 --> 00:59:37,080
science which I assume a place right on

1398
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:41,490
then steered poli-sci grad school

1399
00:59:41,490 --> 00:59:45,690
you are a certified wok but we're about

1400
00:59:45,690 --> 00:59:47,640
what about that storytelling craft and

1401
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,170
that biting wit you have that you're so

1402
00:59:49,170 --> 00:59:51,060
famous for and that does draw people

1403
00:59:51,060 --> 00:59:52,800
into you know I think that's part of why

1404
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:54,720
they get so emotionally engaged with you

1405
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,849
where did that come from is that is

1406
00:59:56,849 --> 00:59:58,859
there was it always part of your

1407
00:59:58,859 --> 01:00:01,380
worldview or is there a person or an

1408
01:00:01,380 --> 01:00:03,510
experience you can point to that that

1409
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:06,570
brought that to you I don't know I mean

1410
01:00:06,570 --> 01:00:09,930
I never intended to have this kind of a

1411
01:00:09,930 --> 01:00:11,910
career you know like I wasn't aiming at

1412
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:14,339
media certainly I thought I was going to

1413
01:00:14,339 --> 01:00:18,089
be an activist and so I pursued my

1414
01:00:18,089 --> 01:00:21,000
academic career as sort of trying to

1415
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,480
build myself a good toolkit for being a

1416
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,690
better activist I never really I've

1417
01:00:27,690 --> 01:00:28,830
never really been a person who could

1418
01:00:28,830 --> 01:00:30,780
imagine my life very far into the future

1419
01:00:30,780 --> 01:00:35,490
which is some subject for therapy and we

1420
01:00:35,490 --> 01:00:38,910
could do it here but great time these

1421
01:00:38,910 --> 01:00:41,010
chairs are coming it's do you mind if I

1422
01:00:41,010 --> 01:00:45,810
lie down nicely and so I was sort of

1423
01:00:45,810 --> 01:00:47,970
doing that in a kind of utilitarian way

1424
01:00:47,970 --> 01:00:50,190
trying as an activist I felt like my

1425
01:00:50,190 --> 01:00:51,869
what I needed to be able to do was

1426
01:00:51,869 --> 01:00:53,250
understand the field in which I was

1427
01:00:53,250 --> 01:00:55,830
working I was an AIDS activist and then

1428
01:00:55,830 --> 01:00:57,330
ultimately became a prison reform

1429
01:00:57,330 --> 01:00:58,530
activists and those things were

1430
01:00:58,530 --> 01:01:01,140
connected and so I needed to understand

1431
01:01:01,140 --> 01:01:02,460
the field in which I was operating I

1432
01:01:02,460 --> 01:01:04,140
needed to be able to speak with lots of

1433
01:01:04,140 --> 01:01:06,450
different people in order to receive

1434
01:01:06,450 --> 01:01:08,070
information from experts in that field

1435
01:01:08,070 --> 01:01:09,630
and then I needed to be able to

1436
01:01:09,630 --> 01:01:13,410
synthesize the political aims of what I

1437
01:01:13,410 --> 01:01:16,080
was doing into a story that would make

1438
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:17,930
the decision-maker change their mind and

1439
01:01:17,930 --> 01:01:21,240
so like I did public policy as my

1440
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,580
undergraduate degree with a focus on

1441
01:01:23,580 --> 01:01:24,960
healthcare because I was an AIDS

1442
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:26,339
activist and I felt like I needed that

1443
01:01:26,339 --> 01:01:28,500
but I did a essentially a minor like an

1444
01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:31,440
honors thing in in ethics which was the

1445
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,089
way that at the school I went to that's

1446
01:01:33,089 --> 01:01:35,640
the way you minor in philosophy and the

1447
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:36,990
reason I wanted to do philosophy is

1448
01:01:36,990 --> 01:01:38,250
because I felt like I wanted to be

1449
01:01:38,250 --> 01:01:41,490
better at making arguments and when it

1450
01:01:41,490 --> 01:01:45,060
came to doing a doctoral dissertation I

1451
01:01:45,060 --> 01:01:47,599
had done a really heavily quantitative

1452
01:01:47,599 --> 01:01:50,190
undergraduate degree I did a lot of

1453
01:01:50,190 --> 01:01:52,080
statistics and stuff just that was again

1454
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:53,820
trying to become more literate in ways

1455
01:01:53,820 --> 01:01:54,180
that I

1456
01:01:54,180 --> 01:01:55,770
would help me make better arguments and

1457
01:01:55,770 --> 01:01:57,299
be better at what I was trying to do and

1458
01:01:57,299 --> 01:01:59,369
so I wanted to kind of balance that

1459
01:01:59,369 --> 01:02:02,010
another way and and tell a big story

1460
01:02:02,010 --> 01:02:04,349
about social movements and social change

1461
01:02:04,349 --> 01:02:05,339
and that's what I did my doctoral

1462
01:02:05,339 --> 01:02:06,990
dissertation on so much it's all about

1463
01:02:06,990 --> 01:02:08,640
like just trying to get the next thing

1464
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,279
done that I wanted to do but I ended up

1465
01:02:11,279 --> 01:02:14,130
at the end of it having been an activist

1466
01:02:14,130 --> 01:02:16,589
from the time that I was 16 and having

1467
01:02:16,589 --> 01:02:18,420
been trained in argument and public

1468
01:02:18,420 --> 01:02:21,390
policy in the mean time and that ended

1469
01:02:21,390 --> 01:02:24,180
up unbeknownst to me being a good

1470
01:02:24,180 --> 01:02:25,589
background for doing the kind of work

1471
01:02:25,589 --> 01:02:27,059
that I do now but it wasn't what I was

1472
01:02:27,059 --> 01:02:30,799
aiming at and in terms of being goofy I

1473
01:02:30,799 --> 01:02:38,180
think I I mean I think I'm just immature

1474
01:02:39,559 --> 01:02:42,539
I mean I mean it literally I am immature

1475
01:02:42,539 --> 01:02:45,869
but I don't just mean it like making fun

1476
01:02:45,869 --> 01:02:47,849
of myself I think that I like have an

1477
01:02:47,849 --> 01:02:52,020
eight-year-old sense of humor and so

1478
01:02:52,020 --> 01:02:54,599
like the there's always going to be like

1479
01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:55,980
oh like there's going to be a fart joke

1480
01:02:55,980 --> 01:02:58,410
somewhere you know there's gonna be like

1481
01:02:58,410 --> 01:02:59,819
I had to tell them like doubles

1482
01:02:59,819 --> 01:03:03,869
excrement slays me like I'm kind of

1483
01:03:03,869 --> 01:03:09,569
eight and so I that's how I think and if

1484
01:03:09,569 --> 01:03:11,609
that's the way it comes out I think it

1485
01:03:11,609 --> 01:03:12,809
works for some people it doesn't work

1486
01:03:12,809 --> 01:03:15,150
for other people I mean there's a lot of

1487
01:03:15,150 --> 01:03:16,799
joking around in the book even though

1488
01:03:16,799 --> 01:03:18,960
this is a very serious oh it made me

1489
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,289
laugh out loud it seemed in that right

1490
01:03:22,289 --> 01:03:23,970
so like I wrote a book six or seven

1491
01:03:23,970 --> 01:03:25,470
years ago about the military also had

1492
01:03:25,470 --> 01:03:27,510
lots of jokes and even people who like

1493
01:03:27,510 --> 01:03:30,089
they teach that book at the US Army War

1494
01:03:30,089 --> 01:03:32,849
College Wow right something is I've I've

1495
01:03:32,849 --> 01:03:34,440
lectured on the book at West Point it's

1496
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,180
like it's great but like you'll talk to

1497
01:03:36,180 --> 01:03:37,770
somebody who's like really into the

1498
01:03:37,770 --> 01:03:39,420
Abrams doctrine and wants to talk about

1499
01:03:39,420 --> 01:03:42,270
Selective Service in 1974 but they like

1500
01:03:42,270 --> 01:03:44,460
are super mad about the jokes I made

1501
01:03:44,460 --> 01:03:47,880
about ed Meese I'm like looking at me I

1502
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,520
am going to make jokes about him

1503
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,320
works for some people it works as

1504
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:53,760
leavening for some people but I think it

1505
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:55,980
also it's like iron filings in the dip

1506
01:03:55,980 --> 01:03:57,920
for other people like it just doesn't

1507
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,340
acquired taste

1508
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,130
speaking of acquired taste

1509
01:04:10,130 --> 01:04:12,540
I'm so good it's not speaking of iron

1510
01:04:12,540 --> 01:04:13,130
filings

1511
01:04:13,130 --> 01:04:16,230
speaking of acquired taste so as in you

1512
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:17,880
have an 8-year old sense of humor but

1513
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:19,890
you are very adult when it comes to your

1514
01:04:19,890 --> 01:04:21,600
beverages of choice

1515
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:23,760
I have never interviewed anyone who got

1516
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:25,800
so many questions about cocktails oh

1517
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:26,850
good

1518
01:04:26,850 --> 01:04:28,680
and Justin we can quickly digress a

1519
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,980
woman named Jody Masterton Masterson hey

1520
01:04:31,980 --> 01:04:36,180
Jody you are very creative she suggested

1521
01:04:36,180 --> 01:04:38,160
this is just a few of a much longer list

1522
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,200
of cocktail names that you might want to

1523
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,110
sip on like belly up to the bar with two

1524
01:04:43,110 --> 01:04:46,610
R's Oh oh nice

1525
01:04:46,670 --> 01:04:56,760
wet your whistle blower cosmopolitan and

1526
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:00,420
it groans the Leske which was the last

1527
01:05:00,420 --> 01:05:02,369
nigrum Celestia oh very nice

1528
01:05:02,369 --> 01:05:05,340
Celestia but the question I have is from

1529
01:05:05,340 --> 01:05:07,590
John known that last name and he asks

1530
01:05:07,590 --> 01:05:09,270
you what is the secret to a perfect

1531
01:05:09,270 --> 01:05:16,350
martini oh I could go on you know if you

1532
01:05:16,350 --> 01:05:19,730
know drinkers who are like semi-pro that

1533
01:05:19,730 --> 01:05:22,230
when we start talking about like the one

1534
01:05:22,230 --> 01:05:23,910
drink that means a lot to us it actually

1535
01:05:23,910 --> 01:05:27,000
becomes almost a form of bullying like I

1536
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:28,320
have to be careful the way I talk about

1537
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,060
a martini because I come across as such

1538
01:05:30,060 --> 01:05:34,530
a jerk so I'll be to the point vodka is

1539
01:05:34,530 --> 01:05:38,910
not an ingredient in martinis vodka

1540
01:05:38,910 --> 01:05:42,210
vodka isn't in there gin is in there but

1541
01:05:42,210 --> 01:05:43,830
there is another thing that has to be in

1542
01:05:43,830 --> 01:05:45,960
there there has to be vermouth this

1543
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:47,790
whole thing about like Winston Churchill

1544
01:05:47,790 --> 01:05:49,800
used to glance at the vermouth and then

1545
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,859
exam and then not allow it to touch them

1546
01:05:52,859 --> 01:05:54,900
or there's an atomizer with they're

1547
01:05:54,900 --> 01:05:57,330
supposed to be vermouth dry vermouth yes

1548
01:05:57,330 --> 01:06:00,060
okay and in I think the reason that

1549
01:06:00,060 --> 01:06:00,560
people

1550
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,660
afraid of putting the proper amount of

1551
01:06:02,660 --> 01:06:04,220
dry vermouth in their martinis is

1552
01:06:04,220 --> 01:06:06,110
because somebody once served them

1553
01:06:06,110 --> 01:06:08,300
something they called a martini that was

1554
01:06:08,300 --> 01:06:11,060
accidentally made with vodka vodka mixes

1555
01:06:11,060 --> 01:06:12,920
terribly with vermouth and so of course

1556
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:15,110
you want a very dry vodka martini

1557
01:06:15,110 --> 01:06:16,520
because what you really want is just a

1558
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:21,500
glass of vodka if you are going to drink

1559
01:06:21,500 --> 01:06:24,170
a martini it's both gin and a good

1560
01:06:24,170 --> 01:06:26,120
amount like I do like a two-to-one some

1561
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:29,300
people do a 50/50 gin vermouth with good

1562
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:31,010
fresh vermouth that is a bottle that you

1563
01:06:31,010 --> 01:06:34,850
didn't open in the Jurassic era it goes

1564
01:06:34,850 --> 01:06:36,740
bad it's not that alcoholic you have to

1565
01:06:36,740 --> 01:06:38,210
keep it in the fridge after you open it

1566
01:06:38,210 --> 01:06:40,270
write the data on the label very

1567
01:06:40,270 --> 01:06:43,370
important and if you like a lemon twist

1568
01:06:43,370 --> 01:06:45,950
or an olive which are the only two

1569
01:06:45,950 --> 01:06:51,020
options you if you have a lemon twist

1570
01:06:51,020 --> 01:06:52,790
you do have the option of putting a

1571
01:06:52,790 --> 01:06:54,950
little bit of orange bitters in your

1572
01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:56,780
martini which does not taste like orange

1573
01:06:56,780 --> 01:06:58,940
but actually counterbalances the lemon

1574
01:06:58,940 --> 01:07:00,260
so you don't have a fruity drink I know

1575
01:07:00,260 --> 01:07:01,850
it sounds counterintuitive but it works

1576
01:07:01,850 --> 01:07:04,520
but you can't put orange bitters in your

1577
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:06,110
martini if you're using an olive because

1578
01:07:06,110 --> 01:07:08,660
that's weird if you do use an olive it

1579
01:07:08,660 --> 01:07:11,510
has to be a green olive and it can have

1580
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:13,400
a pimento if you want although it's not

1581
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:15,170
supposed to it can't have anything else

1582
01:07:15,170 --> 01:07:19,040
inside it that's not a pimento and you

1583
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,010
have to stir it and it can't be more

1584
01:07:22,010 --> 01:07:24,740
than three and a half ounces any other

1585
01:07:24,740 --> 01:07:27,250
questions

1586
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,410
very nice things I could say about it

1587
01:07:34,410 --> 01:07:36,240
but I'll try to stop now maybe the next

1588
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:38,490
book yeah I could write a whole book

1589
01:07:38,490 --> 01:07:39,900
just about how about whether in my

1590
01:07:39,900 --> 01:07:41,490
opinion I think that sounds a wonderful

1591
01:07:41,490 --> 01:07:45,539
I I want to shift gears quite a bit

1592
01:07:45,539 --> 01:07:49,859
Amanda Bolton says this is an audience

1593
01:07:49,859 --> 01:07:51,690
question president Trump frequently

1594
01:07:51,690 --> 01:07:53,700
postures and media's and adversary to

1595
01:07:53,700 --> 01:07:55,410
truth and freedom how does that change

1596
01:07:55,410 --> 01:07:57,539
the way you engage with the news or how

1597
01:07:57,539 --> 01:07:59,160
you present the news that's a very good

1598
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:03,270
question all presidents hate the media

1599
01:08:03,270 --> 01:08:06,089
and all presidents feel like they are

1600
01:08:06,089 --> 01:08:08,130
uniquely horribly treated by the media

1601
01:08:08,130 --> 01:08:10,349
and maybe they're right

1602
01:08:10,349 --> 01:08:13,200
I mean maybe as we evolved as a country

1603
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,510
we're meaner to each successive

1604
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:17,880
president maybe I mean Who am I to say

1605
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:19,859
that they have distorted perspective but

1606
01:08:19,859 --> 01:08:21,330
there is something different going on

1607
01:08:21,330 --> 01:08:25,770
with this president that is about trying

1608
01:08:25,770 --> 01:08:30,390
to deal Ajith amis the existence of

1609
01:08:30,390 --> 01:08:32,310
journalism in the United States writ

1610
01:08:32,310 --> 01:08:35,219
large the only other politician I know

1611
01:08:35,219 --> 01:08:38,130
who's ever tried this on for size was my

1612
01:08:38,130 --> 01:08:42,960
boyfriend Spiro Agnew which is part of

1613
01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:44,160
the reason that I wanted to do that

1614
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:50,939
bagman podcast I did because I heard so

1615
01:08:50,939 --> 01:08:52,350
I went and listened to some of his

1616
01:08:52,350 --> 01:08:54,060
speeches where I mean he's like he's

1617
01:08:54,060 --> 01:08:55,620
famous for this nattering nabobs of

1618
01:08:55,620 --> 01:08:57,299
negativism

1619
01:08:57,299 --> 01:09:00,120
his real speeches where he attacked the

1620
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,219
press and where he attacked the Justice

1621
01:09:02,219 --> 01:09:03,660
Department and the prosecutors who were

1622
01:09:03,660 --> 01:09:06,359
investigating him were like trump 1.0

1623
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:09,899
really really and it was seen at the

1624
01:09:09,899 --> 01:09:13,319
time as profoundly dangerous and the way

1625
01:09:13,319 --> 01:09:15,569
that he attacked the media was

1626
01:09:15,569 --> 01:09:20,719
particularly sort of had a had a barely

1627
01:09:20,719 --> 01:09:24,000
camouflaged anti-semitic implication

1628
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,160
that he would talk about the media and

1629
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:28,589
the elites in a way that really he was

1630
01:09:28,589 --> 01:09:30,000
making it quite clear that it was about

1631
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:31,679
the Jews and the Jews controlling

1632
01:09:31,679 --> 01:09:33,089
everything and the Jews being out to get

1633
01:09:33,089 --> 01:09:36,029
him and Agnew after he resigned the vice

1634
01:09:36,029 --> 01:09:37,859
presidency ultimately would go on to be

1635
01:09:37,859 --> 01:09:39,779
basically an international anti-semite

1636
01:09:39,779 --> 01:09:42,670
for hire where he would

1637
01:09:42,670 --> 01:09:45,729
in solicit income for an income from

1638
01:09:45,729 --> 01:09:48,100
foreign governments that wanted to stir

1639
01:09:48,100 --> 01:09:50,140
up anger against American Jews literally

1640
01:09:50,140 --> 01:09:52,569
that's what he did to make money and so

1641
01:09:52,569 --> 01:09:56,230
I feel like Agnew's ghost helps us

1642
01:09:56,230 --> 01:10:01,450
understand how malignant this is and how

1643
01:10:01,450 --> 01:10:07,810
close it is to really really dark even

1644
01:10:07,810 --> 01:10:12,760
fistic aims and I also can see that it's

1645
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,020
an offshoot of what other presidents

1646
01:10:14,020 --> 01:10:15,160
have done in terms of their complaining

1647
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,350
and so recognizing that this could

1648
01:10:17,350 --> 01:10:21,580
curdle very badly and it's it's it edges

1649
01:10:21,580 --> 01:10:23,860
up against that and I see that I also

1650
01:10:23,860 --> 01:10:27,370
feel like the solution to it is not to

1651
01:10:27,370 --> 01:10:30,220
get as serious about it but rather to

1652
01:10:30,220 --> 01:10:34,990
try to brush it off a little bit and in

1653
01:10:34,990 --> 01:10:38,080
my own life part of what it means is

1654
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:39,910
that I sort of refused to play these

1655
01:10:39,910 --> 01:10:41,590
games where they try to turn us in the

1656
01:10:41,590 --> 01:10:43,960
media against each other I know that

1657
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:45,640
people have different views about how

1658
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:47,500
best to approach this presidency and how

1659
01:10:47,500 --> 01:10:49,390
best to approach journalism and some

1660
01:10:49,390 --> 01:10:51,070
people think cable news is evil and some

1661
01:10:51,070 --> 01:10:52,690
people are mad at the New York Times and

1662
01:10:52,690 --> 01:10:54,670
some people think that the you know Jeff

1663
01:10:54,670 --> 01:10:56,470
Bezos iteration of the Washington Post

1664
01:10:56,470 --> 01:10:58,060
means a thing and some people really

1665
01:10:58,060 --> 01:11:00,370
hate Fox News even the news side of Fox

1666
01:11:00,370 --> 01:11:03,670
News inside and I I feel like at this

1667
01:11:03,670 --> 01:11:06,820
point we're if we're in the if we're in

1668
01:11:06,820 --> 01:11:08,650
the news business and we're in the

1669
01:11:08,650 --> 01:11:10,270
journalism business then we are all on

1670
01:11:10,270 --> 01:11:11,860
the same side and even the people who

1671
01:11:11,860 --> 01:11:18,940
hate me I will love back and so it's a

1672
01:11:18,940 --> 01:11:20,230
it's I mean

1673
01:11:20,230 --> 01:11:22,930
if is everybody here subscribed to their

1674
01:11:22,930 --> 01:11:25,360
local public radio station do you pay

1675
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:27,610
money if you're look pay money to your

1676
01:11:27,610 --> 01:11:28,870
local public radio station you have a

1677
01:11:28,870 --> 01:11:30,820
great public radio here you really do

1678
01:11:30,820 --> 01:11:32,800
and it needs and to support local

1679
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:34,720
reporting the best thing you can do for

1680
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:36,700
journalism in your country I don't know

1681
01:11:36,700 --> 01:11:37,960
what's going on at Chicago unless

1682
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,060
they're Chicago reporters reporting it

1683
01:11:40,060 --> 01:11:41,530
in a way that I can pick up in New York

1684
01:11:41,530 --> 01:11:43,360
and make into a national story right I

1685
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:44,560
wouldn't have took I wouldn't have had

1686
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,330
the Flint water story had there not been

1687
01:11:46,330 --> 01:11:48,340
local reporters working in Michigan and

1688
01:11:48,340 --> 01:11:49,650
Clinton telling that

1689
01:11:49,650 --> 01:11:52,709
like you can't survive with the national

1690
01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:53,999
media even if it's a great national

1691
01:11:53,999 --> 01:11:56,010
media that you like have to support

1692
01:11:56,010 --> 01:11:58,590
local local journalism and you need to

1693
01:11:58,590 --> 01:12:01,260
support journalism as a craft I don't

1694
01:12:01,260 --> 01:12:04,380
know if in if your kid or if you've got

1695
01:12:04,380 --> 01:12:07,320
kids or grandkids who are in middle

1696
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:09,360
school and high school right now but do

1697
01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:12,119
you know if at the middle school or high

1698
01:12:12,119 --> 01:12:15,269
school that attends to your family do

1699
01:12:15,269 --> 01:12:17,150
you know if they've got a student paper

1700
01:12:17,150 --> 01:12:19,920
if they don't have a student paper would

1701
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:21,449
you consider getting together with some

1702
01:12:21,449 --> 01:12:24,209
of your friends and endowing one if

1703
01:12:24,209 --> 01:12:26,280
they're not if they've got that would

1704
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,880
you consider endowing proto television

1705
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,119
journalism podcast for the jet for the

1706
01:12:33,119 --> 01:12:34,650
journalism class and the 6th grade at

1707
01:12:34,650 --> 01:12:36,420
your local middle school I mean we need

1708
01:12:36,420 --> 01:12:39,090
to grow investigative reporters by the

1709
01:12:39,090 --> 01:12:41,429
bushel in this country for the sake of

1710
01:12:41,429 --> 01:12:45,479
our democracy we were we were talking

1711
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:48,269
backstage and I get nutrients need two

1712
01:12:48,269 --> 01:12:49,800
more questions in concern now I gotta

1713
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:51,479
let you go I'm sorry I've talked so long

1714
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:55,320
you're amazing no apologies this is kind

1715
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:56,550
of a great time for journalism we were

1716
01:12:56,550 --> 01:12:59,489
talking about that your book which not

1717
01:12:59,489 --> 01:13:02,010
only paints this incredible picture of

1718
01:13:02,010 --> 01:13:04,409
the the the threat of the oil and gas

1719
01:13:04,409 --> 01:13:06,360
industry and why we need to think about

1720
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:09,150
this and become closer to it but the

1721
01:13:09,150 --> 01:13:10,469
number of excellent reporters

1722
01:13:10,469 --> 01:13:12,239
represented in it whose work you bring

1723
01:13:12,239 --> 01:13:14,369
back to life if we feel like we don't

1724
01:13:14,369 --> 01:13:16,229
have access to useful information that's

1725
01:13:16,229 --> 01:13:17,729
really not the case there's so many

1726
01:13:17,729 --> 01:13:20,670
amazing reporters we were talking in

1727
01:13:20,670 --> 01:13:23,219
backstage about she said by Jody Kanter

1728
01:13:23,219 --> 01:13:24,719
Megan Chui who are joining us next

1729
01:13:24,719 --> 01:13:27,179
Tuesday I'm very excited and their book

1730
01:13:27,179 --> 01:13:29,610
and then Ronin Pharaohs catch and kill

1731
01:13:29,610 --> 01:13:31,889
now these are two books that talk about

1732
01:13:31,889 --> 01:13:34,619
the media in different ways she said is

1733
01:13:34,619 --> 01:13:36,869
about the the force of the New York

1734
01:13:36,869 --> 01:13:38,820
Times and how that helped them carry

1735
01:13:38,820 --> 01:13:41,190
that investigation for it gave them a

1736
01:13:41,190 --> 01:13:43,289
certain credibility pharaoh has a

1737
01:13:43,289 --> 01:13:45,090
different experience he says the media

1738
01:13:45,090 --> 01:13:48,590
company MSNBC NBC that he worked with in

1739
01:13:48,590 --> 01:13:51,989
stymied him tried to shut down and I'm

1740
01:13:51,989 --> 01:13:54,840
wondering given that there are both

1741
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:57,160
books about me too

1742
01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:59,110
and given that you've just thought a lot

1743
01:13:59,110 --> 01:14:02,020
about corporate responsibility visa vie

1744
01:14:02,020 --> 01:14:05,530
the oil gas industry and the ways in

1745
01:14:05,530 --> 01:14:07,660
which governance can get twisted with

1746
01:14:07,660 --> 01:14:09,190
sort of trying to serve shareholder

1747
01:14:09,190 --> 01:14:11,440
values mm-hmm what do you think the role

1748
01:14:11,440 --> 01:14:13,570
of corporate responsibility is in

1749
01:14:13,570 --> 01:14:19,840
relationship to me to boy I mean first

1750
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:21,970
of all I think that media companies are

1751
01:14:21,970 --> 01:14:25,090
companies and companies need to be

1752
01:14:25,090 --> 01:14:28,660
internally improving on these issues

1753
01:14:28,660 --> 01:14:31,240
right that the ways of doing business in

1754
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:32,890
the media business and in lots of other

1755
01:14:32,890 --> 01:14:36,250
big business have to change and when

1756
01:14:36,250 --> 01:14:38,200
there is a reckoning in these things the

1757
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:39,340
companies need to recognize that

1758
01:14:39,340 --> 01:14:41,470
evolution and not resistance is the way

1759
01:14:41,470 --> 01:14:45,100
to deal with those things and so I think

1760
01:14:45,100 --> 01:14:47,680
first and foremost media companies need

1761
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:49,000
to be seen as companies that need to do

1762
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,020
their own work there in terms of the

1763
01:14:52,020 --> 01:14:55,390
reporting around me to stuff I mean the

1764
01:14:55,390 --> 01:14:57,310
to the extent that there are gatekeepers

1765
01:14:57,310 --> 01:14:59,050
for this kind of stuff if the

1766
01:14:59,050 --> 01:15:00,610
gatekeepers are compromised the stories

1767
01:15:00,610 --> 01:15:02,320
aren't going to get out but that just

1768
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:04,690
creates I mean Ronan's book right as far

1769
01:15:04,690 --> 01:15:08,680
as I understand it is a story that he

1770
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:10,600
was chasing which is about Weinstein and

1771
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:12,490
then the other story that he discovered

1772
01:15:12,490 --> 01:15:15,130
along the way when he started to

1773
01:15:15,130 --> 01:15:16,870
investigate what was keeping him from

1774
01:15:16,870 --> 01:15:18,760
getting the story about Weinstein and

1775
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:21,730
the proper outcome of that process is

1776
01:15:21,730 --> 01:15:24,100
that he is able in the end to tell both

1777
01:15:24,100 --> 01:15:25,900
stories one of those stories who want to

1778
01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:27,580
pull out surprised for and one of them

1779
01:15:27,580 --> 01:15:28,540
he's about to have a number one

1780
01:15:28,540 --> 01:15:29,950
best-selling book that's gonna knock me

1781
01:15:29,950 --> 01:15:34,690
off the charts and so I mean I think

1782
01:15:34,690 --> 01:15:37,660
I've read Megan and Jodi's book I've not

1783
01:15:37,660 --> 01:15:39,820
read Megan Ronan's book cause it's not

1784
01:15:39,820 --> 01:15:43,560
out but I one of the things that I am

1785
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:48,190
incredibly buoyed by for both of them is

1786
01:15:48,190 --> 01:15:50,290
that I think those books are gonna make

1787
01:15:50,290 --> 01:15:52,120
people who read them in college decide

1788
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:54,280
to go to journalism school because it is

1789
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:57,190
about the nobility and bravery and civic

1790
01:15:57,190 --> 01:15:59,290
mindedness and rigor of journalism done

1791
01:15:59,290 --> 01:16:01,750
well and it's as exciting as hell I mean

1792
01:16:01,750 --> 01:16:05,500
it really really is and so that's what

1793
01:16:05,500 --> 01:16:08,010
welcoming

1794
01:16:08,970 --> 01:16:12,490
so speaking of nobility and bravery and

1795
01:16:12,490 --> 01:16:14,350
civic mindedness and this is the last

1796
01:16:14,350 --> 01:16:18,550
question I hate love you to stay for an

1797
01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:22,060
hour way back in 2010 in regard to fake

1798
01:16:22,060 --> 01:16:24,040
politics and the dearth of political

1799
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:26,440
facts you said on your show let's argue

1800
01:16:26,440 --> 01:16:28,630
let's have the great American debate

1801
01:16:28,630 --> 01:16:30,430
about the role of government and the

1802
01:16:30,430 --> 01:16:32,560
best policies for the country it's fun

1803
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,620
it's citizenship its activism it makes

1804
01:16:35,620 --> 01:16:37,210
the country better when we have those

1805
01:16:37,210 --> 01:16:39,460
debates and your country needs you it

1806
01:16:39,460 --> 01:16:42,880
needs all of you it needs all of us so

1807
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,220
if we armed with one of your fabulous

1808
01:16:45,220 --> 01:16:48,670
martinis take those hard marching orders

1809
01:16:48,670 --> 01:16:50,920
how do we leave tonight and start that

1810
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,890
debate Wow

1811
01:16:53,890 --> 01:16:59,100
I would I would say a couple of things I

1812
01:16:59,100 --> 01:17:02,740
do I do I am not a particularly green

1813
01:17:02,740 --> 01:17:04,660
person like I don't come from an

1814
01:17:04,660 --> 01:17:07,180
environmental background my partner's

1815
01:17:07,180 --> 01:17:08,740
very green and like kind of tried to

1816
01:17:08,740 --> 01:17:10,510
make our lives more sustainable and

1817
01:17:10,510 --> 01:17:12,400
everything and I just I'm not really

1818
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:13,690
wired that way and I'm trying to get

1819
01:17:13,690 --> 01:17:15,460
better having written this book about

1820
01:17:15,460 --> 01:17:17,530
the oil and gas industry and the way it

1821
01:17:17,530 --> 01:17:21,190
is corrosive toward our ability to make

1822
01:17:21,190 --> 01:17:24,370
good democratic decisions now on the way

1823
01:17:24,370 --> 01:17:26,860
toward the climate apocalypse you think

1824
01:17:26,860 --> 01:17:29,140
that would motivate me to be like you

1825
01:17:29,140 --> 01:17:31,890
know like taking a sailboat everywhere

1826
01:17:31,890 --> 01:17:34,990
and I'm I'm not I'm intellectually there

1827
01:17:34,990 --> 01:17:37,270
but my life hasn't changed to make those

1828
01:17:37,270 --> 01:17:38,980
accounts and so I feel you know

1829
01:17:38,980 --> 01:17:41,020
embarrassed about that and humble about

1830
01:17:41,020 --> 01:17:43,060
that but I also feel like it's worth

1831
01:17:43,060 --> 01:17:46,900
being real about that and we don't we're

1832
01:17:46,900 --> 01:17:48,370
not all going to become full-time

1833
01:17:48,370 --> 01:17:51,580
activists and we're not all going to run

1834
01:17:51,580 --> 01:17:54,210
for office and we're not all going to

1835
01:17:54,210 --> 01:17:58,480
lead a movement but we can all do

1836
01:17:58,480 --> 01:18:00,610
something more than we are already doing

1837
01:18:00,610 --> 01:18:04,260
and if

1838
01:18:04,449 --> 01:18:08,320
you are incredibly motivated by the

1839
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:11,019
president if you have if you feel like

1840
01:18:11,019 --> 01:18:13,360
president Trump is a motivating force

1841
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:14,769
like nothing you've ever had in your

1842
01:18:14,769 --> 01:18:18,969
life the what in your life shows that if

1843
01:18:18,969 --> 01:18:23,349
you want him out of office or if your

1844
01:18:23,349 --> 01:18:25,179
incredible supporter of President Trump

1845
01:18:25,179 --> 01:18:26,320
and you really want him to stay in

1846
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:28,149
office what are you doing to make that

1847
01:18:28,149 --> 01:18:32,320
happen this is a time when I think we

1848
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:33,820
have all started to realize that you

1849
01:18:33,820 --> 01:18:36,459
can't necessarily know what the thing is

1850
01:18:36,459 --> 01:18:38,979
that's gonna make the difference in the

1851
01:18:38,979 --> 01:18:39,489
world

1852
01:18:39,489 --> 01:18:41,469
you can't know what's gonna inspire

1853
01:18:41,469 --> 01:18:43,659
people right I mean these viral moments

1854
01:18:43,659 --> 01:18:45,760
that spread on social media of regular

1855
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:47,559
people doing things on the middle of a

1856
01:18:47,559 --> 01:18:49,059
day when they woke up that morning and

1857
01:18:49,059 --> 01:18:50,199
thought it was gonna be a day like no

1858
01:18:50,199 --> 01:18:51,699
other and they ended up doing something

1859
01:18:51,699 --> 01:18:53,499
that changed the conversation of the

1860
01:18:53,499 --> 01:18:55,269
country of 300 million people for a week

1861
01:18:55,269 --> 01:18:58,179
you know we're in a position right now

1862
01:18:58,179 --> 01:19:00,489
where our ability as individual citizens

1863
01:19:00,489 --> 01:19:03,219
to do stuff gives us a new form of

1864
01:19:03,219 --> 01:19:06,070
responsibility and to the extent that

1865
01:19:06,070 --> 01:19:09,099
the climate matters to you are you doing

1866
01:19:09,099 --> 01:19:10,749
other kind of political work and can you

1867
01:19:10,749 --> 01:19:12,669
factor climate into that to the extent

1868
01:19:12,669 --> 01:19:14,110
that the president matters to you or

1869
01:19:14,110 --> 01:19:15,939
this next election matters to you what

1870
01:19:15,939 --> 01:19:18,459
are you doing not just to follow it on

1871
01:19:18,459 --> 01:19:20,559
TV but to actually participate try to

1872
01:19:20,559 --> 01:19:22,209
try as much as you can to change the

1873
01:19:22,209 --> 01:19:23,320
outcome and the way that you want it to

1874
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:27,969
go I just think this is just close are

1875
01:19:27,969 --> 01:19:30,579
saying this having all of you guys here

1876
01:19:30,579 --> 01:19:33,760
in person to me is the reason I was so

1877
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:34,840
like nervous and jittery at the

1878
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:37,059
beginning is because we spend all of our

1879
01:19:37,059 --> 01:19:39,880
times with our screens on right I mean

1880
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:41,559
you guys see me behind the TV screen I

1881
01:19:41,559 --> 01:19:43,749
know but we also spend all of our times

1882
01:19:43,749 --> 01:19:44,919
with our through all of our time with

1883
01:19:44,919 --> 01:19:46,269
our phones and with our computer screens

1884
01:19:46,269 --> 01:19:48,010
and that's so much the way that we

1885
01:19:48,010 --> 01:19:49,899
understand the mediated world right now

1886
01:19:49,899 --> 01:19:52,599
but none of you are doing that right now

1887
01:19:52,599 --> 01:19:54,309
you're all here in person you came out

1888
01:19:54,309 --> 01:19:57,820
here bodily to see me in person to be

1889
01:19:57,820 --> 01:19:59,709
among all of these other thousands of

1890
01:19:59,709 --> 01:20:01,809
you who came out to do this in person to

1891
01:20:01,809 --> 01:20:04,570
be at a live event to imbibe words to

1892
01:20:04,570 --> 01:20:06,579
hear a conversation to have new thoughts

1893
01:20:06,579 --> 01:20:08,139
and to be around your fellow man while

1894
01:20:08,139 --> 01:20:10,209
doing it and that is something that you

1895
01:20:10,209 --> 01:20:12,429
don't have to do but you did it and

1896
01:20:12,429 --> 01:20:14,320
you're here and it means the world to me

1897
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:15,959
and to me

1898
01:20:15,959 --> 01:20:17,999
when we are willing to show up someplace

1899
01:20:17,999 --> 01:20:19,650
when we were actually willing to bodily

1900
01:20:19,650 --> 01:20:22,800
be there it's transformative not only

1901
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:24,709
potentially for the world but for us and

1902
01:20:24,709 --> 01:20:28,619
so I just it means a lot for me to see

1903
01:20:28,619 --> 01:20:29,999
you guys right now and I would just say

1904
01:20:29,999 --> 01:20:32,010
to do your own inventory in terms of

1905
01:20:32,010 --> 01:20:33,780
what matters to you and what you can

1906
01:20:33,780 --> 01:20:35,340
maximize in your life in terms of what

1907
01:20:35,340 --> 01:20:38,150
you're doing to bring that about

1908
01:20:43,219 --> 01:20:46,949
what an awesome love to end on a chill

1909
01:20:46,949 --> 01:20:48,460
that Oh

1910
01:20:48,460 --> 01:20:51,789
[Applause]

1911
01:20:52,060 --> 01:20:58,250
I'm sorry about your dating thing it was

1912
01:20:58,250 --> 01:20:59,250
a good news a good sign

1913
01:20:59,250 --> 01:21:09,250
[Applause]

1914
01:21:09,570 --> 01:21:11,630
you