Οι άντρες ονειρεύονται τις γυναίκες
Οι γυναίκες ονειρεύονται τον εαυτό τους να τις ονειρεύονται
Οι άντρες κοιτούν τις γυναίκες
Οι γυναίκες βλέπουν τον εαυτό τους να τον κοιτούν
Οι γυναίκες διαρκώς συναντούν βλέματα που λειτουργούν σαν καθρέφτες
υπενθυμίζοντας τους την εμφάνισή τους ή πώς αυτή θα έπρεπε να είναι.
Πίσω από κάθε ματιά υπάρχει μια κρίση.
Κάποιες φορές η ματιά μου συναντούν είναι η δική τους, αντανακλούμενη από έναν πραγματικό καθρέφτη.
Μια γυναίκα πάντα συνοδεύεται, εκτός όταν
είναι τελείως μόνη της. Και μπορεί ακόμα και τότε, από
την εικόνα του ίδιου της του εαυτού. Καθώς περπατάει,
διασχίζοντας ένα δωμάτιο, ή κλαίγοντας για τον θάνατο του πατέρα της
δεν μπορεί να αποφύγει να συλλαμβάνει τον εαυτό της, να περπατάει ή να κλαίει
από την παιδική ηλικία, διδάσκεται και πείθεται να επιθεωρεί τον εαυτό της συνεχώς
Πρέπει να επιθεωρεί όλα όσα είναι και όλα όσα κάνει διότι
Ο τρόπος που εμφανίζεται στους άλλους και ειδικότερα ο τρόπος που εμφανίζεται στους άντρες
είναι ζωτικής σημασίας, καθότι
[music]
A woman in the culture of privileged Europeans,
is first and foremost a sight to be looked at.
What kind of sight is revealed in the average European oil painting
There were portraits of women as there were portraits of men.
but in one category of painting, women were the principle
ever occuring subject, that category was the nude.
In the nudes of European painting, we can discover some of the criteria
and conventions by which women were judged.
We can see how women were seen.
What then is a nude?
In his book on the nude, Kenneth Clark says that being
naked is simply being without clothes
the nude, according to him, is a form of art
I would put it differently.
To be naked is to be oneself.
To be nude is to be seen naked by others and
yet not recognized as oneself. A nude
has to be seen as an object in order to be nude.
In the European oil painting, nakedness is not taken for granted
as in archaic art. Nakedness is a sight for those who are dressed.
That is why Manners's painting which really marks the end of a period I am considering is so
profound a comment on all the works that preceded it.
the story begins with the story of Adam and Eve as told in Genesis.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and it was a delight for the eyes,
and that the tree was desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof and did eat
and she gave also to her husband with her, and he did eat.
and the eyes of them both were opened, and they
knew that they were naked
and the Lord God called out to the man and said
Where art thou? and he said
I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid
and I hid myself
unto the woman God said, "I will greatly
multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow, thou shall bring forth children,
and they desire will be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
Two things are striking about this story.
They become aware of being naked because, as a result of
eating the apple, each sees the other differently
nakedness is created in the mind of the beholder.
The second striking fact is that the woman
is blamed and is punished by being made subservient to the man
In relationship to the woman, the man becomes the agent of God.
In medieval art, the story is often illustrated scene following scene
as in a strip cartoon.
During the Renaissance, the narrative sequence disappears, and the single moment
which is nearly always depicted, is the moment of shame.
The couple wear fig leaves or make a modest gesture with their hands
but now, their shame is not so much in relationship to one another as is to the spectator.
It is the spectator looking which shames them.
Later, as painting became more secular,
many other subjects offer the opportunity for painting nudes.
But always in the European tradition, the nude implies an awareness of being seen
by the spectator. They are not
naked as they are, they are naked as you see them.
Often, as with the favorite subject of Suzanna and the elders,
this is the actual theme of the picture.
We join the elders to spy on her.
She looks back at us looking at her.
Sometimes the woman, Suzanna, looks at herself
in the mirror, picturing herself as men see her.
She sees herself first and foremost as a sight
which means as a sight for men.
Thus the mirror is a symbol of the vanity of women
yet the male hypocrisy in this is blatant.
You paint a naked women because you enjoy looking at her
you put a mirror in her hand, and you call the painting vanity
thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you have
depictured for your own pleasure
And thus, incidentally, repeating the biblical incident by
blaming the woman
The Judgement of Paris is another famous mythological subject with the same
in written idea of looking at naked women and judging them.
Paris awards the apple to the woman he finds most beautiful.
Beauty in this context is bound to become competitive.
The judgement of Paris is transformed into a beauty contest.
Aesthetics when applied to women are not
as disinterested as the word beauty
might suggest
I don't want to deny the crucial part that seeing
plays in sexuality, but there's a great difference in being seen
as oneself naked or being seen by another in that way
and a body being put on display
To be naked, is to be without disguise.
To be on display, is to have the surface of one's own skin,
the hairs of one's own body
turned into a disguise.
A disguise which cannot be discarded.
Amongst the tens of thousands of European oil paintings
of nudes, there are perhaps 20 or 30 exceptions, paintings in which the
artist has seen the woman revealed as herself.
this Rubens
this Rembrant
this George De La Tour
These paintings are as personal as love poems
and their character is quite distinctive
Most nudes oil paintings have been lined up
by their painters for the pleasure of the
male spectator only
who will assess and judge them
as sights
Their nudity is another form of dress
They are condemned to never being naked
with their clothes off, they are as formal
as with their clothes on
Those who are not judged beautiful, are not beautiful.
Those who are, are given the prize.
The prize is to be owned.
That is to say, to be available.
Charles II commissioned this secret painting
from Lale. It's like hundreds of others,
it might be Venus and Cupid, but
in fact, it was a portrait of one of his mistresses Nell Gwen.
He chose her passively looking at the
spectator staring at her naked.
Her nakedness is not an expression of her own feelings
it is only a sign of her submission to his demand
The painting, when he shows it to others,
demonstrates this submission. His guests envy him.
By contrast, in another tradition, nakedness is a celebration of
active sexual love as between two people,
the woman as active as the man
the actions of each absorb the other.
In oil painting, the second person or the second
person who matters it the person looking at the painting.
Compare these two women.
One the model for what is considered a masterpiece by Eng
and the other an ill paid model for a photograph in a girly magazine
Or these two
just the expresssion, the look,
what do you see?
It seems to me that in each pair, the expression
is remarkably similar, and it is an
expression of responding with remarkable charm
to the man who she knows is looking at her
although she doesn't know him
It is true that sometimes a painting includes
a male lover, but the woman's attention is very rarely
directed towards him. She looks away from him
or she looks out of the picture towards he who
considers himself her true lover, the spectator-owner
this painting was sent as a present from the Grand Duke of Florence to the King of France
The boy kneeling on the cushion and kissing
is Cupid the woman is Venus
But the way her body is arranged has nothing to do with
that kissing. Her body is arranged the way it is to display it
to the man looking at the picture
the picture is made to appeal to his sexuality
it has nothing to do with her sexuality
The convention of not painting the hair on a woman's body helps towards the same end.
Hair is associated with sexual power, with passion.
The woman's sexual passion, needs to be
minimized, so that the spectator feels
that he has the monopoly of such passion.
There were paintings which depicted
male lovers. These did exist.
But they were mostly private, semi-pornographic
pictures. In most paintings, which were painted to be seen
rather than hidden, the only rival to the male
spectator is a cupid.
Now, how extraordinary it is that the
pictorial symbol of passion is a small boy.
For a similar reason, women in the European art of the oil painting are seldom seen dancing.
They have to be shown languid, exhibiting a minimum of energy.
They are there to feed an appetite, not to have any of their own.
The appetite was theoretically gargantuan.
The absurdity of this male flattery, although it was not seen as absurd then
reached its peak in the public academic art of the 19th C
prime ministers discussed under paintings like this
when one of him felt he had been outwitted, he looked up for consolation
the nude in European oil painting
is usually presented as an ideal subject
it is said to be an expression of the European humanist spirit
I don't want to reject entirely the truth of this,
but I have tried to add to it
starting off from a different viewpoint.
Duer who believed in the ideal nude
thought that this ideal could be constructed
by taking the shoulders from one body
the hands of another, the breasts of another,
and so on
Was this humanist idealism?
Or was it the result of the indifference
to who any one person really was?
Do these paintings celebrate
as we're normally taught
the women within them?
or the male voyeur?
Is there sexuality within the frame?
or in front of it?
I showed the program, as you have seen it, up to now, to five women.
It began to seem absurd that the only images
that you are seeing are of women
silent, mute
So, I showed it to them and asked them to comment.
To comment not so much on the program
but rather on the questions raised by it
Above all, on the question of how men see women
or how they have seen them in the past.
And how this influences the way women see
themselves today.
We have an image, of
Of course, we all have an image of ourselves
and it is a visual image, but I wonder how
much this sort of classical European painting
has shaped that image.
In my own case, I find it quite impossible when I
look at the paintings you show, in your film, I can't
take them seriously, I cannot identify with them
because they are so immensely exaggerated.
Always, you know, they fasten onto some secondary
sexual characteristic, these enormous breasts,
these beasting bottoms, those huge things like that
and they just aren't real. Whereas with
photographs, you can feel that as potentially, possibly
although it probably isn't. Many of these paintings you show are idealized.
Um, and therefore, they are to me very unreal.
in connection with any deep down image that I might have of myself
or in connection with any deep down
pleasure I might have
when looking at another female body
they don't give me that pleasure at all
I can admire then as paintings
but they don't mean human beings to me
the image that I compare myself to
is the photograph because it is with photographs
that I have been encouraged to think of myself
in this way, it is essentially advertising to me
that has made me think of myself in this way
and consequently, I find it extremely interesting to go
back and think of nudes in this way because
I have never done so, but having seen the film
I have no doubt that the same thing applies.
And do you find the nudes in painting unreal
in the same way? yes.
Well, you can't get any information from it,
can you ? there's no guide to how you might--
what information is lacking?
well, activity. Dynamism. it is how
someone sees you and that's all,
it is laid upon you.
I'm glad you showed the men in picture
because I always find this extremely shocking
the men are dressed and the women are naked
and this seems to sum up the entire situation
because these women as well being humiliated
and I think this is part of the whole
scheme of things
as most people have had, at some station
in life, nightmares about running through the streets with nothing on
while everyone else is dressed. And this seems
to me to be one element in the picture.
One very interesting thing you said in the film was
about how nudity was really a kind of disguise,
it wasn't the real person themselves free.
But it was just another garment they were wearing
and worse than a garment, in a sense, because
it was something that you can't take off.
This comes, I think, from
nudity being combined with a pose. And that's
inevitable if you're going to have a painting
of a model. Um, in a way, I think that
we're always dressing. We're always dressing up
for a part. Always putting on a uniform of one kind of another
and I think women do this more than men
men have only been doing it fairly recently.
Women are always dressing to show the kind of
character that they want to present: the mother, the working
woman, the pretty young chick. And nudity
is a uniform, in a way, for I'm ready
for sexual pleasure. So, it doesn't. You can't
identify being nude with being free.
Only just recently read that book
which describes a way in which a woman
is reduced to the sexual pleasure she can
to a complete object provide to a man. And what struck me in all that book
that was the most impressive image is the fact that she was told
that she was never to touch her own breasts to
close her own mouth or to put her legs
together. So, the whole point about her stance
all the time is that she was available
and this sense of being available of waiting
for other people is the very antithesis of action
and you know just like the Brook Street
Bureau advertisement, Tony hasn't run. He's
three minutes late in ringing. You feel this whole
situation, the number of women you talk to who
say I stay in so many night a week, waiting for someone to ring
the concept of availability implies
passivity because if you're simply waiting for someone else to act
then you can't help yourself.
yes, it's like you will awake when a man touches
you when a man kisses you. Whether its an excuse,
to get yourself going, I think women are shy
they are waiting too long.
yes, yes.
Could I say something now about narcissism?
I think that both men and women are narcissistic
but in different senses, and I think
that one in sometimes I have the impression
that men and women are tremendously
narcissistic and are cut off from each other
from their images of themselves. But
whereas a woman's image of herself is derived
directly from other people, the mirror you're talking about
a man's image of himself is derived from
the world that is its the world that gives him back
his image because he acts in it. and the women are drawn to him as a source, as central activity,
and as a source of worth
since he is in the world, the fact
that he values her is important
and so because their centers of narcissism are different,
and the woman's is essentially only
related to the other person
she is in a much more passive position than he is
in relation to it
yes
do you see narcissism as essentially a negative
or positive phenomenon?
well, i think that is very difficult to answer
but in the sense that it is related to
an identity, um, it is a positive phenomenon
and it seems to me that what women envy in men in that
they have a sense of their
own identity
that there is something in them
that is important to them other than
simply what other people think of them
and I think that thing
is product of their interaction in the world
and it is almost as if through this interaction
they build up a store of worth
of their sense of themselves
which is a constant
it cannot be lost
and because a woman doesn't go out
and do that
she doesn't create a store
she waits for the present interaction with a man
that can go, that can end at any moment
there is something here that really
I would like to push around a little bit
because narcissism is a very pronounced
way of stating a relationship with the world
whether it is a man or a woman
but this other question which is contained
within it, but doesn't go as far as it as an idea
is this sort of self delight of a person
whether or it is a man or woman
in life, in what they're doing
in relationships with a man or woman
and it is a thing that matters tremendously
and its not only a thing that is an inner thing
by which you life
but it is a very outer thing
by which you gain relationships with
your own context in the world
that you can't gain any other way
its when you've somehow been made
so unconscious of yourself that
you easily, naturally,sort of
compulsively go out to whatever is around you
now, when you're a child that tends
with people to be other things
doesn't it?
mountains, streams, whereever you go
and then only gradually as you go on
you make this kind of absolutely necessary contact with people
but I do think that the sort of essense
of self delight as a kind of possible thing
in the modern world and something
that fewer women have than men and want and must have
is the power, the compulsion, not the power
the compulsion to make contact with the world
as you are living in it
and when I'm saying that I don't
simply mean the people next door
I mean what is going on
yes
I am not so sure about the delight
I think it is a very double edged thing
I know
as I suppose I've always known
that I became aware of it in this film
I've never consciously looked at myself in
the mirror and seen myself as I am
I always see the image that I want
I know that I want to
and my children notice it that if I make up
my face I put on a certain expression
if I , from adolescence on, if I have seen myself
naked in the mirror, I have not thought of
myself naked, I have thought of myself as a nude
and I think this comes from having been trolled
around all the major art galleries
in essence, this is culture, this is beauty
with a capital B
and, of course, up to a point from advertising too
but much more from the painting
um, that you think the female body is beautiful
I am a beautiful object, if not, I have to do
something about it
um, and therefore, the painful part
of a narcissistic society is the feeling of inadequacy
this business of always posing in a mirror
I think one does absolutely automatically
and if you actually catch yourself
in a mirror by chance that is not deliberately
because you're getting dressed or having a bath
there's one in the street, or you catch yourself
in a shop window, it's a tremendous shock
because you suddenly see yourself as you are
which is windblown, untidy, badly dressed
tired, and so on
you don't see the person
at all, and I think this is what happens to women
they are always trying to measure
up to this erotic image that is projected.
There are some paintings
and I'm thinking at this moment of one painting
where there is a woman
who is wearing a garment
she is not nude
but it is a garment so loose, so comfortable
so easy, and its my idea, very much
of what a picture of a woman might be like
I think its from a period before yours,
it's so long ago by Lorenzetti
it's a fresco, very very old
and it is a picture of a woman
who is suppossed to represent peace
it's quite extraordinary
she could be one of the liberated
or trying to be liberated young women
of today. she is at ease, she is relaxed
she is not playing the part at all
she is able to combine
pleasure with thought
and with dreaming
and she is, she might spring into action
at any moment
and for me
she has much, much more to do
with nakedness, with oneself, with the
truth of oneself than any other nudes I have seen
[music]
Men
0:03
dream of women
0:05
women dream themselves being dreamt of
0:08
men look at women
0:10
women watch themselves being looked at the
0:14
well
0:30
to
0:34
do
0:47
women constantly meet glances which act like news
0:51
reminding them how they look my homage minimum
0:56
behind the big runs you an email
0:59
sometimes the grounds the medium is the island
1:02
reflected back from a real man I'll
1:16
you
1:57
the
2:13
to
2:20
a woman is always accompanied except when 2011
2:24
perhaps even then
2:25
I had an image asylum
2:28
while she's walking across a poem weeping in the desert like
2:32
she cannot avoid the envisaging self walking
2:36
a weeping from the earliest childhood cheese torte and persuaded
2:40
to survey herself continually the
2:43
chance to survey everything she is everything she does
2:46
because how she appears to others and particularly hard it is to men
2:49
the is a crucial importance the
2:52
partisan only sort of success I'll
3:00
Don
3:05
0
3:06
do
3:07
do
3:10
0
3:11
E in
3:15
a woman in the culture of privileged europeans
3:18
is first and foremost site to be looked at what kind of site
3:23
is revealed in the average European oil painting
3:27
the reporters that women as a reporter's men
3:30
but in one category of painting women with the principal
3:33
ever coming subject that category was the nude
3:37
in the news that European painting we can discover some of the
3:42
criteria and conventions by which women would charge
3:45
we can see how women was seen what then is in you
3:57
in his book on the new would Kenneth Clarke says that
4:00
being naked is simply being without clothes
4:03
the new would according to him
4:06
is a former Oct I would put it differently
4:11
to be naked is to be oneself to be new food
4:16
is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself
4:21
a nude has to be seen as object
4:24
in order to be unused in the European oil painting
4:30
nakedness is not taken for granted as an archaic
4:33
Oct nakedness is a site for those who addressed
4:38
that is why man is painting which way to mark the end of the period I'm
4:41
considering
4:42
is so profound the comment on all the works which proceeded
4:45
the story begins
4:48
with the story Adam and Eve as told in Genesis and when the woman saw that the
4:54
tree was good for food
4:55
and it was a delight to the eyes and the tree was to be desired
4:59
to make one wise she took the fruit they're all and did eat
5:02
she gave also and her husband with her and he'd
5:06
and I is them both were opened and they knew that they were naked
5:10
and the Lord God called on to the man and said unto him
5:14
where art thou he said I heard my voice in the garden and I was afraid
5:19
because I was naked and I hate myself unto the woman
5:23
got said I will greatly multiply by sorrow
5:27
and I conception in sorrow that I shall bring forth children
5:31
and I desire to be to my husband and he shall rule
5:34
over the two things are striking about this story
5:41
they become aware being naked because
5:44
as a result to beating the Apple each sees
5:47
the other differently nakedness is created
5:50
in the mind of the beholder the second striking fact
5:55
is that the woman is blamed and is punished
5:58
by being made subservient to the man in relation to the woman
6:02
the man becomes agent of God in medieval art
6:08
the stories often illustrated seen following see
6:12
as in A Streetcar to in during the Renaissance
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the narrative sequence disappears and the single moment
6:20
which is nearly always depicted is a moment shape
6:23
the couple left figleaves
6:27
or make a modest gesture with their hands but now
6:30
their shame is not so much in relation to one another as to the spectator
6:35
it is the spectators looking which aims them
6:38
later as painting became more secular
6:42
many other subjects offered the opportunity continues
6:46
but always in the European tradition the new
6:49
implies and awareness being seen
6:53
by the spectator they are not
6:56
naked as they are they are naked
6:59
as you see them
7:09
often as with the favorite subject Susanna and the elders
7:12
this is the actual theme a picture we join the elders
7:17
to spy on her she looks back at us
7:22
looking at a sometimes the woman suzanna
7:27
looks at herself in a pictured to herself
7:31
how men see her she sees herself
7:34
first and foremost as a site which means
7:38
site for men nice the Miller became a symbol
7:42
the vanity of women get the mail hypocrisy in this is blatant
7:46
you paint a naked woman because you enjoy looking at a
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you put in there were in hand and you call the painting vanity
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does Molly condemning the woman whose nakedness you have depicted
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for your own pleasure and us incidently
8:02
repeating the biblical example by blaming the woman
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the judgment of Paris
8:09
was another favorite mythological subject with the same in written idea
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up man looking at naked women and judging Paris
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towards the Apple to the woman he finds most beautiful
8:20
duty in this context is bound
8:23
to become competitive the judgment of Paris
8:27
is transformed into the beauty contest aesthetics when applied to women
8:33
are not as disinterested as the word beauty
8:36
might suggest I don't want to deny
8:42
the crucial part that see place in sexuality
8:45
but there's a great difference between being seen as oneself
8:48
naked or seeing another in that way at a body
8:51
been put on display to be naked
8:55
is to be without disguise to be on display
8:59
is to have the surface of one's own skin the has a one's own body
9:03
turned into a disguise a disguise which
9:07
cannot be discarded amongst the tens of thousands of European oil paintings at
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Newlands
9:13
perhaps twenty 30 exceptions
9:16
paintings in which the artist seen the woman the field
9:20
as herself this rubin's
9:23
this rembrandt
9:30
this George 2.2 these paintings are as personal as love times
9:37
and that character is quite distinctive most you'd seen oil paintings
9:43
have been lined up by their painters for the pleasure
9:46
the male spectator owner who will assess
9:49
and judge them as sites that nudity is another former dress
9:55
they are condemned to never be naked with their clothes off
10:00
they are as formal as with their clothes on
10:05
those who are not judged beautiful are not
10:08
beautiful those who are are given the prize
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applies is to be held that is to say
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to be available Charles the Second
10:19
commission to this secret painting from Lee it's like hundreds of others
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it might be Venus and Cupid but in fact
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it was a portrait one of his mistresses Nell Gwyn it shows how passively looking
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at the spectator
10:33
staring at her naked her nakedness
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is not an expression happened feedings it is only a sign
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a submission to his demand painting when he shows it to others
10:49
demonstrates the submission his guests in
10:52
him by contrast in another tradition
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nakedness is a celebration active six your luved
11:00
as between two people the woman as activism and
11:03
the actions that each absorb the other
11:07
in oil painting
11:11
the second question or a second person who matters
11:14
is a stranger looking at the picture compared the expression
11:18
these two women when the model for what is considered a masterpiece by EIN
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the other until paid model for photograph in a girlie magazine
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of these two just the expression
11:36
look RTC it seems to me that in each pair
11:42
the expression is remarkably similar and his expression
11:46
responding with calculated charm to the man
11:49
whom she knows is looking at a although she doesn't know him it is true that
11:54
sometimes a painting includes a male lover
11:56
but the woman's attention is very very
12:00
directed towards him she looks away from him she looks out of the picture
12:04
towards he who considers himself a true lover
12:07
the spectator this painting was sent as a present from the Grand Duke of loans
12:14
the King of France the boy kneeling on the cushion and kissing a woman
12:18
is Cupid she's penis but the way her body is arranged has nothing to do
12:23
without kissing a body is arranged the way it is
12:26
to display it to the man looking at the picture the picture is made
12:31
to appeal to kids sexuality has nothing to do with her sexuality
12:35
the conventional not picking the half on a woman's body
12:39
helps towards the same and hair is associated with sexual part with passion
12:43
the woman sex or passion needs to be minimized
12:47
so that the spectator may feel that he has a monopoly
12:50
such passion there were paintings
12:54
which depicted male lovers sees that exist but they were mostly private
12:58
simi pornographic pictures in most paintings which were painted to be seen
13:03
rather than hidden the only rival to the male spectator
13:07
is a cupid how extraordinary it is
13:10
the pictorial symbol a passion was a small boy
13:14
for a similar reason women in the European onto the art painting
13:18
a seldom shown dancing they have to be shown
13:22
languid exhibiting minimum energy they are there to feed
13:27
an appetite not to have any of their own the appetite
13:32
was theoretically gargantuan
13:35
the absurdity of this male factory
13:39
although it was not seen as upset then reached its peak
13:42
in the public academic Oct at the 19th century prime ministers discussed
13:48
under paintings like this when one of them felt he'd been outwitted
13:52
he looked up for consolation
13:55
the new in European oil painting is usually presented as an
14:00
ideal subject it is said to be an expression from the European
14:04
humanists do it I don't want to reject entirely the truth to this
14:10
but I've tried to add to it starting off from a different viewpoint
14:14
dealer who believed in the ideal nude
14:18
sort to this ideal could be constructed
14:21
by taking the shoulders one body the hands of another
14:24
the best another and so on
14:28
was this humanist idealism
14:31
or was it was out have an indifference to who any one person
14:35
really was do these paintings
14:38
celebrate as we normally talked the women within them
14:42
or the mail wire
14:45
is that sexuality within the frame
14:49
or in front of it I showed the program
14:53
as you have seen it up till now 25 women
14:57
it began to seem absurd that the only images you were seeing
15:00
women silent newt so I showed it to them
15:04
and ask them to comment to comment not so much on the program but rather on the
15:07
questions raised by it
15:09
above all on the question of how men see women or have seen them in the past
15:14
and how this influences the way women see themselves today
15:18
we have an English course will happen image sensitive issue
15:21
image but I wonder how much
15:25
the sort of classical European painting
15:29
has shaped that image in my own case I find it quite impossible when I look at
15:33
the paint institution
15:34
your film I can take them seriously I cannot identify with them because they
15:39
are so immensely
15:40
exaggerated police you know the fasten home to some
15:43
secondary sexual characteristics release norms
15:47
Press great be to beastin bottoms and a huge things like that
15:53
and they just aren't real whereas with photographs
15:57
I'm you can you can feel that is potentially that's possibly me although
16:01
the it probably isn't but these these
16:05
nearly all the paintings you have shown I'll what is
16:08
called idealized am and therefore
16:12
they are to me very unreal in connection with
16:16
with any deep down image that I might have myself
16:20
and in connection with any deep down pleasure that I might have
16:23
in looking at another female body they don't give me that
16:27
engine tall can moms painting
16:31
but the on the they don't mean human beings to me
16:35
I'm the image that I compare myself with is the photograph
16:39
because it's with photographs that I've been encouraged to think for myself
16:43
this weight is essentially advertising me that's contributed to this
16:47
and consequently I find it extremely interesting to go back
16:50
and think newt's in this way because I've never done sir
16:54
having seen the film I have no doubt that the same thing plants
16:59
and do you find that they knew it in painting under the
17:02
in the same way yes
17:05
will you come get any information from it minute
17:09
snow guide to execute a one-time animation is lacking
17:13
oh well activity unit dynamism anything
17:18
it is has someone sees you in that something later
17:21
on I'm glad you showed them any picture
17:24
because I always find is extreme shocking
17:28
because the men address and women a naked
17:32
and he seems to be some the whole situation is a humiliating
17:35
position and women are will be
17:38
am and I think this is whole scheme teams and
17:42
at most people have had and something to nightmares about
17:46
lenses peaks nothing incidents
17:49
and this seems to me one and picked
17:52
I'm very interesting thing you said in the film was
17:55
about how nudity
17:58
was really a kind of disguise it wasn't the real person themselves and free
18:04
but it was just another comment wearing and worse than a garment in a sense
18:08
because
18:09
something that you can take off this comes I think
18:12
from nudity being combined with the polls
18:16
and that's inevitable if you're going to have a painting over model
18:20
bomb in a way
18:25
i think thats we're always dress always dressing up for a part
18:29
always on putting on a uniform of one kind or another
18:33
and I think women do this almost more than men have only begun doing he said
18:37
he recently
18:38
women are always getting to show the kind of character
18:42
what they want to percent the mother the working woman
18:46
the pretty young chick are and nudity
18:49
is a uniformed in a way for
18:53
I'm ready now for sexual pleasure you see
18:56
and so it doesn't YouTube you can't come you can't identify being nude
19:02
with being free only just recently read
19:05
that look eastward do which describes them
19:09
way in which room is reduced for sexy special mention
19:13
with to complete object and what struck me in all that
19:16
book as the most impressive image was the fact that
19:20
she was told that she was never
19:23
to touch her breasts to entirely clothes from a
19:26
all too close or to put her legs together
19:30
and so the whole point about her stance all the time with cheese available
19:35
and this the sense being available the senses waiting for other people
19:39
is the antithesis in action and
19:42
eat unit just like the home the book street be right there Smith
19:46
Tony hasn't run you know he's finished lotioning
19:49
and you feel this whole situation number when you talk to you say
19:52
I stay in seven nights a week waiting for somebody to rain
19:56
the concept availability implies facility because
20:00
if you simply want somebody else to act when you contact
20:04
yes it's is lack and you awake
20:07
when the man tapped mmm kisses him
20:10
rising and I'm made it an excuse to get yourself
20:15
I think you need to shine
20:19
there waiting
20:22
to him yes yes could I say something about narcissism
20:28
I think that both men and women old
20:31
but in different senses and I think that one
20:35
in sometimes I'd I have the impression
20:38
men and women no tremendously narcissistic concussion from each other
20:43
by their images themselves but it whereas the woman's
20:46
image herself is derived directly from other people
20:51
mirror you're talking about a man's image of himself
20:55
is derived from world that is
20:58
it's the world gives him back his image because he acts in it
21:02
and and women are drawn to him as a source
21:06
a central activity and as the
21:09
a salsa were me since he is in the world the fact she values her
21:14
is important and and so because they're supercenters
21:18
narcissus different and the woman's is essentially
21:23
only related to the other person she's much more passive position
21:27
mentioned yes do you see
21:32
you see narcissism essentially a and
21:36
a negative or positive well
21:41
i think thats very difficult to answer but
21:44
in the sense that which is related to identity
21:47
I'm it supposed to film and it seems to me that what women Indian men
21:53
the times they have sent to the identity that
21:56
there is it something in them which is important to them other them simply what
22:00
other people think
22:01
them and I think that that think is the product to their interaction with
22:06
world people and its so true
22:09
it's almost as if through this interaction actually build up a stall
22:13
all were sense it themselves
22:16
I'm which it which is a constant I mean it can't be lost
22:21
but because the woman doesn't go out a nap she doesn't create the store
22:25
she waits only for the present interaction
22:29
that and that can go that can just ended any moment
22:33
up
22:40
strap occur
22:43
classicism is he sold
22:46
paramount's way they
22:50
a should
22:54
but a.m. this
22:57
other question which is contained within it yes
23:02
and it is
23:06
this sort itself delight at the Perth
23:09
whether it's an all in
23:13
lie what they're doing relationships
23:17
with men or women and
23:21
it a thing met as Shin and is not only a kind
23:27
in a thing I which with it
23:30
but is it really after in by which
23:34
to gay in relationships with you know I'm context
23:39
well but you can't gain any other way bit
23:42
its when you have some have been made some countries
23:48
now yet you easily
23:51
naturally so compulsively girl to
23:55
whatever is going on you now we're not
23:59
child that 10 northern
24:02
with people to be on p with
24:05
mansions 3 this will you
24:09
girl a.m. her
24:12
and then only grant you as
24:16
on you make this kind
24:19
absolutely necessary
24:22
contact with people but I do think
24:27
that the soda essence
24:31
self tonight as kinda possible thing
24:35
in the modern world them something that fewer women have remained
24:39
and won't months is
24:43
the other compulsion not the
24:46
the compulsion to make
24:49
contact with the world as you are living in it
24:52
my said just me the people next door
24:56
print I simply pockets going
24:59
item
25:02
sure about the delight I think it's very HH thing
25:05
I'm I know as is for several reasons
25:09
I became aware film I have never consciously look at myself in the mirror
25:13
and see myself as I am
25:16
I only seen image that I want I know
25:19
my children notice it if I make up my face I put on them
25:22
question if I from adolescence on
25:26
if I see myself naked Miller not for metals naked I told myself is a new
25:30
and I think this campaign I G from having being tailed
25:34
major his culture his beauty
25:38
capital be and course up to a point from advertising
25:43
to much more the painting am
25:46
that you use you think the female body
25:50
is beautiful I am beautiful object if not I have to do something about it
25:54
am and therefore the painful part narcissistic
25:58
hitting the feeling inadequate see am
26:01
now this businesses always posing in the mirror
26:05
I think wonder absolutely automatically and without
26:08
is it if you actually catch shoot up in america
26:12
am by chance not deliberately because you didn't list
26:16
had a ball but because there's one in street you capture so
26:20
in in a shop window if the two men shot because in some ECU
26:24
as you are which windblown untidy
26:27
badly dressed tired and so on don't see the pose little
26:31
and I think this is what happens to women but they always trying to measure
26:35
up to the
26:35
erotic images projected
26:39
that are some paintings and I think
26:42
at this moment particular one painting where there's a woman
26:45
who is wary gone she's not nude but it is a garment sew
26:50
loose so comfortable so easy
26:55
and is my idea very much on of
26:58
of want a picture of a woman might be like
27:02
it I think it's actually before your period on this is so long ago and it
27:05
sits by Lauren city
27:07
it comes in the good and bad government its fresco it's very very old
27:11
you know and it is a picture of a woman we supposed to represent
27:15
peace it's quite extraordinary but she could be one
27:18
of the liberators are trying to the liberators young women
27:22
today she's at ease she is relaxed
27:26
she's not me any part at all she is
27:30
able to combine occasional thoughts
27:34
and was dreaming and she's she might spring into action
27:38
any moment and I for me
27:41
she she has much much more to do with
27:46
with with nakedness with oneself with the truth about himself and he number
27:50
youth C
27:56
on
28:04
and the third party way to seeing is here at the same time tomorrow
28:08
next tonight and you Graham Dixon is at the Tate Modern print exhibition by Max
28:12
Beckmann
28:14
0
Les hommes rêvent des femmes.
Les femmes rêvent d'elles-mêmes
en train d'être rêvées.
Les hommes regardent les femmes
Les femmes se regardent en train d'être vues.
Les femmes rencontrent constamment des
regards qui agissent comme des miroirs.
qui leur rappellent de quoi elles ont l'air
ou de quoi elles devraient avoir l'air.
Derrière tout regard se trouve un jugement.
Parfois le regard qu'elles rencontrent est le leur,
réfléchi par un miroir.
Une femme est toujours accompagnée
sauf quand elle est seule.
Peut-être même alors, par sa propre image
d'elle-même.
Quand elle traverse une pièce, ou pleure la mort
de son père,
elle ne peut éviter de se voir, marchant ou pleurant.
depuis sa plus tendre enfance, on lui apprend
et on la persuade
de se surveiller en permanence.
Elle doit surveiller tout ce qu'elle est et
tout ce qu'elle fait
car la façon dont elle apparaît aux autres et
en particulier aux hommes
est d'une importance cruciale, car on pense d'habitude
que de cela dépend le succès de sa vie.
Manières de voir
Une femme dans la culture des Européens
privilégiés est d'abord et surtout
une vue à regarder.
Quel genre de vue est révélé
dans la peinture à huile européenne standard
Il y avait des portraits de femmes comme
des portraits d'hommes.
Mais dans une catégorie de peinture,
les femmes étaient le sujet principal récurrent.
Cette catégorie était le nu.
Dans les nus de la peinture européenne, nous pouvons
trouver un des critères et des conventions
par lesquels les femmes étaient jugées.
Nous pouvons voir comment les femmes
étaient vues.
Qu'est-ce donc qu'un nu ?
Dans son livre sur le nu, Kenneth Clark
dit que la nudité est simplement
l'absence de vêtements.
Le nu, selon lui,
est une forme d'art.
Je le dirais autrement.
Etre nu est être soi-même.
Etre un nu est être vu
nu par les autres et pourtant
ne pas être reconnu
comme soi-même.
Un nu doit être vu comme un objet
pour être un nu.
Dans la peinture à huile européenne, la nudité
n'est pas prise telle quelle
comme dans l'art archaïque.
La nudité est une vue
pour ceux qui sont habillés.
C'est pourquoi la peinture de Manet qui
marque la fin de la période que j'envisage
est un commentaire si profond sur
toutes les oeuvres qui l'ont précédée.
L'histoire début avec l'histoire d'Adam et Eve
telle que la Genèse la raconte.
La femme vit que l'arbre était
bon à manger
et séduisant à voir
et que cet arbre était désirable
pour acquérir le discernement
Elle prit de son fruit
et le mangea.
Et elle en donna aussi à son mari
et il en mangea.
Et leurs yeux s'ouvrirent
et ils surent qu'ils étaient nus.
Et le seigneur Dieu appela l'homme
et dit
Où es-tu ?
Et il dit : J'ai entendu une voix
dans le jardin et j'ai eu peur
parce que j'étais nu
et je me suis caché.
A la femme Dieu dit :
Je vais multiplier les peines de tes grossesses.
Dans la peine tu enfanteras
des fils.
et ton désir ira vers ton mari
et il te dominera.
Deux choses sont frappantes
dans cette histoire.
Ils prennent conscience de leur nudité
en mangeant la pomme
chacun voit l'autre différemment
la nudité est créée dans l'esprit
du spectateur.
Le second fait frappant est que
la femme est blâmée et punie
en étant soumise à l'homme.
Par rapport à la femme, l'homme
devient l'agent de Dieu.
Dans l'art médiéval, l'histoire est
souvent illustrée scène après scène
comme dans une bande-dessinée.
Pendant la Renaissance, la séquence
narrative disparaît
et le seul moment qui est clairement peint
est celui de la honte.
Le couple porte des feuilles de figuier
ou fait un geste modeste de leurs mains
Mais à présent, leur honte n'est plus tant
l'un envers l'autre
qu'envers le spectateur.
C'est le spectateur qui les regarde
et les rend honteux.
Plus tard, comme la peinture devient
plus profane,
de nombreux autres sujets offrent
l'opportunité de peindre des nus.
Mais dans la tradition européenne,
le nu implique toujours
la conscience d'être vu
par le spectateur.
Ils ne sont pas nus comme ils sont,
ils sont nus comme vous les voyez.
Souvent, comme dans le sujet fréquent
de Suzanne et les vieillards,
c'est même le thème du tableau.
Nous nous associons aux vieillards
pour l'espionner.
Elle nous regarde en retour
la regardant.
Parfois la femme, Suzanne, se
regarde dans le miroir
se détaillant comme les hommes
la voient.
Elle se voit d'abord et avant tout
comme une vue
ce qui signifie comme une vue
pour les hommes.
Ainsi, le miroir est un symbole
de la vanité des femmes.
Pourtant l'hypocrisie masculine
est ici évidente.
Vous avez peint une femme nue
car vous aimez la regarder
Vous lui mettez un miroir dans la main,
et vous appelez la peinture vanité
condamnant ainsi moralement
la femme dont vous avez peint
la nudité pour votre propre plaisir.
Et ainsi, incidemment, vous répétez
l'exemple biblique
en blâmant la femme.
Le Jugement de Paris est une autre sujet
mythologique fameux
avec la même idée implicite de regarder
des femmes nues en les jugeant.
Pâris offre la pomme à la femme
qu'il trouve la plus belle.
La beauté dans ce contexte devient
concurrentielle.
Le jugement de Pâris est transformé
en concours de beauté.
L'esthétique, quand elle est appliquée
aux femmes
n'est pas aussi désintéressée que le
mot beauté pourrait le suggérer.
Je ne veux pas dénier la part cruciale
que la vision joue dans la sexualité.
Mais il y a une grande différence entre
être vu nu comme soi-même
et être vu par un autre de cette façon
et un corps exposé.
Etre nu c'est être sans déguisement.
Etre exposé, c'est être amené à considérer
la surface de sa propre peau,
les cheveux de son propre corps
comme un déguisement.
Un déguisement qui ne peut pas être retiré.
Parmi les dizaine de milliers de
peintures à huile européennes de nus
il y a peut-être 20 ou 30
exceptions
des peintures où l'artiste a vu
la femme révélée comme soi-même.
ce Rubens
ce Rembrandt
ce Georges de la Tour
Ces peintures sont aussi personnelles
que des poèmes d'amour
et leur caractère est assez reconnaissable
La plupart des nus dans la peinture à huile
ont été dessinées par les peintres
pour le plaisir du seul
propriétaire spectateur masculin
qui les appréciera et les jugera
comme des vues.
Leur nudité est une autre forme
de vêtement.
Ils sont condamnés à n'être jamais nus
Sans leurs vêtements, ils sont aussi
parés qu'avec leurs vêtements.
Celles qui ne sont pas jugées belles,
ne sont pas belles.
Celles qui sont jugées belles,
on leur donne le prix.
Le prix, c'est d'être possédée.
C'est-à-dire, d'être disponible.
Charles II commanda cette peinture secrète
à Lely.
Comme des centaine d'autres,
il peut s'agir de Vénus et Cupidon.
Mais en fait, c'était le portrait de l'une
de ses maîtresses, Nell Gwyn.
Il choisit de la montrer regardant
passivement le spectateur
qui la voit nue.
Sa nudité n'est pas l'expression
de ses propres sentiments.
C'est seulement un signe de sa soumission
à sa demande.
La peinture, quand il la montre à d'autres,
démontre cette soumission.
Ses invités l'envient.
Par contraste, dans une autre tradition,
la nudité est une célébration
de l'amour sexuel actif
entre deux personnes.
La femme, aussi active que l'homme
Les actions de chacun absorbent l'autre.
Dans la peinture à huile, la seconde personne
ou la seconde personne qui compte
est la personnel'étranger qui regarde la peinture.
Comparez l'expression de ces deux femmes.
L'une est le modèle de ce qui est considéré
comme un chef-d'oeuvre d'Ingres
et l'autre est un modèle mal payé par un
photographe pour un magazine féminin.
ou ces deux-là.
Juste l'expression.
Le regard.
Que voyez-vous ?
Il me semble que dans chaque paire,
l'expression est
remarquablement similaire,
et c'est une expression de réponse
avec un charme calculé
à l'homme dont elle sait
qu'il la regarde.
bien qu'elle ne le connaisse pas.
Il est vrai que parfois une peinture
intègre un amant masculin
mais l'attention de la femme est
très rarement adressée à lui.
Elle regarde ailleurs
ou elle regarde hors de la peinture,
vers celui qui se considère comme son
véritable amant
le spectateur-propriétaire
Cette peinture fut envoyée en cadeau
par le Grand Duc de Florence
au Roi de France.
Le garcon agenouillé sur le coussin
et qui fait un baiser est Cupidon
Elle est Vénus
Mais la façon dont son corps est arrangé
n'a rien à voir avec ce baiser.
Son corps est disposé de cette façon
pour être exposé
à l'homme qui regarde le tableau.
Le tableau est fait pour attiser sa
sexualité.
Il n'a rien à faire
avec sa sexualité à elle.
La convention de ne pas peindre les
cheveux du corps féminin
contribue à la même finalité.
La chevelure est associée
au pouvoir sexuel, à la passion.
La passion sexuelle féminine
a besoin d'être minimisée
de telle sorte que le spectateur
sente qu'il a le monopole
d'une telle passion.
Il y a des peintures qui montrent
des amants masculins.
Elles existent bel et bien.
Mais elles sont pour la plupart
des peintures privées,
semi porno-graphiques.
Dans la plupart des peintures, qui étaient
peintes pour être vues,
plutôt que pour être cachées,
le seul rival du spectateur masculin
est un Cupidon.
Comme il est extraordinaire que le
symbole de la passion
soit un petit garçon.
Pour une raison semblable, les femmes
dans l'art européen de la peinture à huile
sont rarement montrées en train de danser.
Elles doivent être montrées langoureuses
exhibant un minimum d'énergie.
Elles sont là pour nourrir un appétit,
non pour en avoir un elles-mêmes.
L'appétit était théoriquement
gargantuesque
L'absurdité de cette flatterie masculine,
bien qu'elle n'ait pas été perçue absurde
à cette époque, atteint son sommet
dans l'art académique publique du XIXe s.
Des premiers ministres discutaient
sous des peintures comme celle-ci.
Quand l'un d'eux se sentait perdre la partie
il levait les yeux pour une consolation.
Le nu dans la peinture à huile européenne
est habituellement présenté comme
un sujet idéal. On dit que c'est une
expression d'un esprit humaniste européen.
Je ne veux pas dénier entièrement la vérité
de cela mais j'ai essayé d'y apporter
un complément, en commençant
à partir d'un point de vue différent.
Dürer, qui croyait dans le nu idéal
pensait que cet idéal pouvait être construit
en prenant les épaules d'un corps,
les mains d'un autre, les seins d'un
autre encore, et ainsi de suite.
Etait-ce cela l'idéalisme humaniste ?
ou était-ce le résultat de l'indifférence
envers qui était vraiment une personne ?
Ces peintures célèbrent-elles,
comme on nous l'enseigne normalement,
les femmes qui y sont représentées ?
ou le voyeur masculin ?
Y a-t-il une sexualité dans le cadre ?
ou devant lui ?
J'ai montré l'émission, comme vous l'avez
vue jusqu'à maintenant,
à cinq femmes.
Cela commençait à devenir absurde
que les seules images que vous voyiez
soient des images de femmes
silencieuses, muettes.
Donc je les leur ai montrées et leur ai
demandé de les commenter.
De commenter non pas tant l'émission
mais plutôt les questions qu'elle soulève.
Surtout, la question de comment les hommes
voient les femmes
ou comment ils les ont vues dans le passé.
et comment cela influence la façon
dont les femmes se voient elles-mêmes
aujourd'hui.
Nous avons une image, bien sûr,
nous avons toutes une image de nous-mêmes
et c'est une image visuelle, mais
je me demande comment ce genre de
peinture classique européenne
a façonné cette image.
Et dans mon cas, je trouve presque
impossible quand je regarde les peintures
que vous montrez, dans votre film,
je ne peux pas les prendre au sérieux,
je ne peux pas m'identifier à elles
parce qu'elles sont tellementt exagérées
Toujours, vous savez, elles s'attachent
à une caractéristique sexuelle secondaire,
ces poitrines énormes, ces
fesses bestiales,
ces choses énormes comme ça,
et elles ne sont pas, simplement, réelles.
Alors qu'avec des photographies, vous
pouvez sentir cela comme potentiel,
possible, bien que cela ne le soit
probablement pas.
Mais ces peintures que vous montrez sont
ce qu'on appelle idéalisées.
Et donc, elles sont pour moi très irréelles.
en relation avec quelque profonde image
que ce soit que je puisse
avoir de moi-même.
et en relation à n"importe quel
plaisir profond que je puisse avoir
en regardant un autre corps féminin
ils ne me donnent pas ce plaisir du tout.
Je peux les admirer comme peintures,
mais ils ne signifient pas des êtres
humains pour moi
L'image à laquelle je me compare
est la photographie
parce que c'est avec des photographies
que j'ai été encouragée à penser
à moi-même de cette façon
c'est essentiellement la publicité
pour moi
qui a contribué à cela
et par conséquent, je trouve
extrêmement intéressant
de revenir en arrière et de penser
aux nus de cette manière
car je ne l'ai jamais fait,
mais en voyant le film
je n'ai aucun doute que
la même chose s'applique.
Et trouvez-vous que les nus en peinture
sont irréels de la même façon ?
Oui.
Vous ne pouvez obtenir aucune information
à partir d'eux, n'est-ce pas ?
Il n'u a pas de guide de comment
on pourrait -
Quelle information manque-t-il ?
Bien, l'activité. Le dynamisme.
N'importe quoi.
C'est la façon dont quelqu'un
vous voit et c'est tout
c'est posé sur vous..
Je suis contente que vous ayez
montré les hommes en peinture
car j'ai toujours trouvé extrêmement
choquant
les hommes sont habillés
et les femmes sont nues
et cela semble résumer
toute la situation
c'est humiliant
car ces femmes sont bien humiliées
et je pense que c'est une partie
de toute la structure des choses
comme la plupart des gens ont,
à un certain moments de leur vie,
des cauchemars où ils courent
dans la rue complètement nus
alors que tout le monde est habillé.
Et cela me semble être un élément
des peintures.
Une chose très intéressante
dans ce que vous avez dit dans le film
était au sujet de la nudité
comme une sorte de déguisement
ce n'était pas les réelles personnes
elles-mêmes et libres
Mais c'était juste une autre parure
qu'elles portaient
et pire qu'une parure, en un sens,
parce que c'était quelque chose
que vous ne pouvez pas enlever.
Cela vient, je pense,
de la nudité combinée à une pose.
et c'est inévitable si vous allez
faire une peinture avec un modèle.
Dans un sens, je pense que
nous sommes toujours habillés.
Nous nous habillons toujours
pour une part
Nous mettons toujours un uniforme
d'un genre ou d'une autre
et je pense que les femmes
font cela
plus que les hommes.
Les hommes ne le font que
depuis assez récemment.
Les femmes s'habillent toujours
pour montrer
le genre de personnage qu'elles
veulent représenter :
la mère, la travailleuse,
la jolie petite poupée.
et la nudité est un uniforme,
en un sens, pour dire
je suis prête pour le plaisir sexuel.
vous voyez
et donc ça ne le fait pas.
Vous ne pouvez pas
vous identifier en étant nue
à être en liberté.
Je viens de lire ce livre Histoire d'O
qui décrit la manière dont une femme
est réduite au plaisir sexuel
pour l'homme dont elle est amoureuse.
pour devenir complètement un objet
et ce qui m'a frappé dans tout ce livre
comme la plus impressionnante image
était le fait que
on lui disait qu'il ne fallait jamais
qu'elle se touche les seins
qu'elle ferme totalement sa bouche ou
serre les jambes.
Et donc tout l'intérêt de son attitude
est qu'elle est disponible en permanence
et cette sensation d'être disponible
d'attendre d'autres gens
est la totale antithèse de l'action
et vous savez c'est comme
la publicité des bureaux de Brook Street.
Tony n'a pas couru, il laisse
sonner le téléphone trois minutes
Et vous sentez toute cette situation,
le nombre de femmes à qui vous parlez
qui disent : je reste tant de nuits
par semaine
à attendre que quelqu'un appelle
Le concept de disponibilité
implique la passivité
car si vous attendez simplement
que quelqu'un d'autre agisse
alors vous ne pouvez pas agir
vous-même.
Oui, c'est comme quand vous vous
réveillez
quand un homme vous touche,
quand un homme vous embrasse,
vous allez vous lever et sortir du lit
mais même s'il s'agit d'une excuse
pour faire quelque chose de vous-même
je pense que les femmes sont trop timides
elles attendent trop longtemps.
Oui, oui
Puis-je dire quelque chose sur
le narcissisme ?
Je pense qu'autant les hommes que les femmes
sont narcissiques
mais dans un sens différent, et je pense
que de temps en temps j'ai l'impression
que les hommes et les femmes sont
terriblement narcissiques
et sont coupés les uns des autres
de leurs images d'eux-mêmes.
Mais alors que l'image qu'une femme
a d'elle-même
dérive directement d'autres personnes,
le miroir dont vous parlez,
l'image qu'un homme se fait de lui-même
dérive du monde
qui est le monde qui lui donne
en retour son image
parce qu'il agit dedans.
et les femmes sont attirées à lui
comme une source,
une activité centrale,
comme une source de valeur
comme il est dans le monde,
le fait qu'il donne de la valeur à elle
est important.
Et ainsi comme leurs centres
de narcissisme sont différents,
et que celui de la femme est seulement
essentiellement
relié à autrui,
elle est dans une position beaucoup plus
passive que lui,
en relation à cela.
Oui
Voyez-vous le narcissisme comme
essentiellement
un phénomène négatif
ou positif ?
Eh bien, je pense qu'il est très
difficile de répondre
mais dans le sens où il est relié
à une identité, c'est un
phénomène positif ;
et il me semble que ce qu'envient
les femmes chez les hommes en cela
tout le temps est qu'ils ont
un sens de leur identité
qu'il y a quelque chose d'important
en eux et pour eux
autre que simplement ce que
les autres pensent d'eux
et je pense que cela est le produit
de leur interaction dans le monde
c'est autre chose chez
d'autres gens
et c'est presque comme si
à travers cette interaction
ils avaient vraiment construit un
magasin de valeur
de leur sens d'eux-mêmes.
qui est une constante
cela ne peut pas être perdu.
et parce qu'une femme ne sort pas
elle ne crée pas de magasin
elle attend l'interaction présente
avec un homme
et ça peut aller, ça peut
s'arrêter à tout moment
Il y a quelque chose ici
que j'aimerais réellement
développer un petit peu,
parce que le narcissisme est une
façon très marquée
de statuer une relation avec le monde
qu'on soit un homme ou une femme
n'est-ce pas
mais l'autre question qui est contenue
dans celle-ci,
mais qui ne va pas aussi loin
comme idée
est l'espèce de plaisir de soi-même
d'une personne
que ce soit un homme ou une femme
dans la vie, dans la mort;
dans les relations
avec un homme ou une femme
et je pense que cela compte
énormément
et je pense que ce n'est pas seulement
une chose intérieure
avec laquelle vous vivez
mais c'est une chose totalement
extérieure
par laquelle vous obtenez
des relations
avec votre propre milieu dans le monde
que vous ne pouvez pas obtenir
d'une autre façon
c'est quand vous vous êtes rendu
en un sens
si inconscient de vous-même
que vous sortez facilement,
naturellement,
comme compulsivement
vers ce qui vous entoure
maintenant, quand vous êtes un enfant
vous êtes attiré vers les autres personnes
plus que par autre chose, n'est-ce pas ?
les montagnes, les rivières, où
que vous alliez
et alors seulement comme vous
continuez graduellement
vous faites cet espèce de contact
absolument nécessaire avec les gens
mais je pense vraiment que l'espèce
d'essence du plaisir de soi
comme une sorte de chose possible
dans le monde moderne
et quelque chose que moins de
femmes que d'hommes ont
et veulent et doivent posséder
est le pouvoir ; la compulsion,
pas le pouvoir
la compulsion d'entrer en contact
avec le monde
comme vous vivez dedans
et quand je dis cela je ne veux
pas simplement dire
les gens d'à-côté
ou vos amis
je veux dire
que se passe-t-il ?
Oui
Je ne suis pas si sûre à propos
du plaisir
Je pense que c'est vraiment
une chose à deux bords
Je sais
comme je suppose que je l'ai
toujours su
que j'ai pris conscience de cela
dans ce film
Je ne me suis jamais regardée
dans le miroir
en me voyant comme je suis
J'ai toujours vu l'image
que je voulais
Je sais et mes enfants
l'ont remarqué
que si je me maquille
je mets une certaine expression
Si, depuis l'adolescence,
je me suis vue nue
dans le miroir, je n'ai pas
pensé à moi-même nue,
J'ai pensé à moi-même
comme un nu
et je pense que cela vient
d'avoir été trainée
dans toutes les grands musées d'art
c'est la culture, c'est la beauté
avec un B majuscule
bien sûr, jusqu'à un certain point
par la publicité aussi
mais beaucoup plus par la peinture
vous pensez que le corps féminin
est beau
je suis un bel objet, sinon, je dois
faire quelque chose pour ça.
et de là, la partie douloureuse
d'une chose narcissique
est le sentiment d'inadéquation
cette occupation de toujours
poser devant un miroir
je pense qu'on la fait
absolument automatiquement
et le résultat, c'est que si
vous vous attrapez vraiment
dans un miroir par hasard
non de façon délibérée
parce que vous vous habillez
ou vous allez prendre un bain
mais parce qu'il y en a un dans la rue,
ou vous vous voyez
dans une vitrine, cela fait
un choc terrible
parce que vous voyez soudainement
comme vous êtes
c'est-à-dire échevelée, négligée,
mal habillée,
fatiguée, et ainsi de suite
vous ne voyez pas la pose du tout
et je pense que
c'est ce qui arrive aux femmes
elles sont toujours en train d'essayer
de mesurer
cette image érotique qui est projetée.
Il y a certaines peintures
et je pense en ce moment
à une peinture
où il y a une femme qui porte
une parure
elle n'est pas nue
mais la tenue est si légère,
si confortable, si facile
et, selon moi, tout à fait
comme ce à quoi
la peinture d'une femme
devrait ressembler
je pense qu'elle vient d'une période
avant celle que vous étudiez,
elle est d'il y a longtemps
elle est de Lorenzetti
C'est dans le Bon et le Mauvais
Gouvernement
c'est une fresque,
très très ancienne
et c'est l'image d'une femme
qui est sensée représenter
la paix
c'est assez extraordinaire
mais elle pourrait être
l'une de ces femmes libérées
d'aujourd'hui
ou qui essayent de l'être.
Elle est à l'aise, relax,
elle ne joue aucun rôle du tout
elle est capable de combiner
le plaisir et la pensée
et le rêve
et elle pourrait se jeter dans l'action
à tout moment
et pour moi
elle a beaucoup, beaucoup
plus à voir
avec la nudité, avec elle-même,
avec la vérité d'elle-même
qu'aucun des autres nus
que j'ai vus.