WEBVTT

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<i>33C3 musique de préroulement</i>

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Herald: Ok! Venons-en à la discussion... 
La suivante est Andrea Jungaberle. Elle

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nous parle des drogues et de comment elles
affectent la psychiatrie. Quel mot dur !

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Pourquoi tu ne le fais pas? Je sais 
maintenant. Et la question est, après la—

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comment dit-on "verbot" en français ? 
Andrea Jungaberle: Prohibition.

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Herald: Après la prohibition dans les
années 70. On n'a pas beaucoup réfléchi

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à comment ces drogues fonctionnent et 
pourraient améliorer la psychiatrie... Et

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maintenant tout le monde se demande,
est-ce le remède miracle? Je ne crois pas.

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Mais plus d'informations sur ce sujet avec
Andrea. Un accueil chaleureux, svp.

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<i>Applaudissements</i>

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Andrea: Bonjour, tout le monde. Je suis
heureuse d'être ici et pouvoir vous parler

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d'un sujet qui me tient à cœur et qui est 
très important pour beaucoup de personnes,

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aujourd'hui et demain. Donc, le sujet est
la médecine psychédélique, le piratage, la

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psychiatrie. Et juste pour rappeler la
chute, ce n'est pas un remède miracle et

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ça ne le sera jamais. Mais aussi il y a
beaucoup de choses à savoir et à penser

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dans ce contexte. J'aimerais vous les
présenter. Mais d'abord, quelques mots

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sur moi. Je suis docteur en médecine,
spécialisée dans l'urgence et les soins

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intensifs. Je travaille et vis à Berlin.
Je suis aussi l'un des fondateurs de MIND,

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la Fondation Européenne pour la Science
Psychédélique, et actuel directeur médical

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Juste une phrase de plus. Voici notre 
équipe de base. MIND est une association

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de membres de Science psychédélique. Nous
avons 450 membres au niveau mondial et une

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équipe de 50 personnes. C'est un noyau de 
personnel rémunéré, nombreux volontaires

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très bons et très dédiés , et de grands
internes de différentes disciplines, comme

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les neurosciences, la psychiatrie, la 
psycho/pharmacologie, etc Nous travaillons

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pour établir la science psychédélique,
comme une méthode, fondée sur des preuves

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et informer en Allemagne et autour en
Europe. Ok, plongeons dans le vif du sujet

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Les Psychédéliques. Que sont-ils ? Et bien
le terme vient des Grecs, Psychée et Délos

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que l'on peut traduire par "manifestation
de l'esprit par la pensée". Tant de gens

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parlaient des substances psychoactives 
comme ayant une certaine, capacité de

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transformer la perception de chacun, 
l'introspection,les qualités sensorielles

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d'une manière très typique qui est parfois
décrite comme onirique, mais pas toujours.

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Les psychédéliques classiques, également
appelés hallucinogènes, terme qui me

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déplait car ces drogues ne provoquent pas 
d'hallucinations. Ce qu'ils font, c'est

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induire de pseudo hallucinations; donc si
on a prend une substance psychédélique,

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dans 99% des cas, on est conscient d'avoir
pris une substance et que ce que l'on

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ressent est dû à cette substance. C'est
donc non un hallucinogène, mais un pseudo

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hallucinogène. Mais ces substances, comme
les classiques- LSD, psilocybine ou DMT -

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fonctionnent de manière très spécifique et
agissent toutes sur le système

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sérotoninergique. La sérotonine est l'un 
des principaux neurotransmetteurs et il y

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a un récepteur, le 5-HT2A, qui est le plus
petit dénominateur commun à toutes ces

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substances, non qu'elles agissent toutes
uniquement sur celui-ci, elles affectent

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toute une pléthore de neuro-transmetteurs
et de récepteurs. Mais c'est la clé où

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elles fonctionnent toutes. Il y a d'autres
substances qui sont classées comme

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plutôt psychédéliques,comme les 
entactogènes -l'ecstasy ou MDMA par ex.-

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qui agisent aussi sur le système sérotoni-
nergique. Les dissociatifs -kétamine,...-

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agissent plus sur le récepteur NMDA; et
d'autres sont basiquement des produits

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chimiques aléatoires, comme l'Amanite 
tue-mouche, la Datura ou la Salvia. Bon.

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C'est la seule diapositive où je vais vous
déranger avec ce genre de science dure. Je

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pense qu'il est important d'être clair sur
ce sujet car même si les psychédéliques

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sont un mème de la culture pop, personne
ne sait rien à leur sujet, à dire vrai. La

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majorité les associe à des drogues ayant
la même dangerosité que la méthamphétamine

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ou les opioïdes. Pense qu'il existe une
dépendance avec les drogues psychédéliques

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qui, en fait, n'existe pas. Et c'est le pb
fondamental de la perception pour beaucoup

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de gens depuis très longtemps. Les choses
ont un peu changé récemment. Les psyché-

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déliques sont devenus la norme. D'abord,
à cause d'un changement général de la

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perception des drogues, comme avec le
cannabis ou un changement des médications.

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Aussi pk des gens, comme Michael Pollan,
qui est un auteur mainstream qui écrit sur

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la cuisine et la nutrition, s'est mis à 
écrire sur les psychédéliques. Et un autre

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facteur qui a aidé les psychédéliques à sa
façon et leur a nuit d'une autre est toute

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cette lubie du microdosage que nous voyons
dans la scène tech ou développementale, et

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surtout dans la région de la Baie et à la 
Silicon Valley. Mais d'où viennent-ils ?

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from? In this talk, I am not going to
speak about psychedelic, psychoactive

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substances in other cultural frameworks.
There are cultures like in the Amazonian

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basin or some Aztec people in Mexico
who have been using psychoactive

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substances, psychedelics, in a very
ritualized sense for millennia, perhaps,

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or at least centuries. But this is not us.
So let's talk about what happened here in

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Europe or in the Western world, including
America. This guy up here, sorry, that's

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the wrong one. The pointer isn't strong
enough. We'll work like this. This nice

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guy up here is Albert Hofmann. In 1938, he
was developing several substances that

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were supposed to work on atonia and in
postpartum women, but also on other

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problems like blood pressure and he, 
among other things, developed the

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thing that later became LSD. But
back then, he didn't see any sense in

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pursuing it medically because it didn't
work the way he wanted it to and he

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shelved it. And for some reason in ’43, he
took it out the shelf again to retest it

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for other purposes, and accidently gave
himself the first noted LSD trip. This

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happened not because he was a shitty
chemist, but because the amount that is

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needed to induce an effect is so low as it
has never been noted before in any other

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substance. So 20 micrograms of LSD can
already produce a notable change in

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perception. So when he came out of that
experience, this first one he had, after

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accidentally dosing himself, he decided
to go for, well, a trial on himself and

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trying to be safe. He used what he thought
was a very low dose of the substance he

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discovered, which turned out to be 250
micrograms of LSD, which was his… I hear

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the laughter. It’s rather a high dose
trip, especially for somebody who just

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didn't know what was expecting him out
there in his own mind. And this is the

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famous bicycle day trip where he rode home
on his bike thinking that the world was

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collapsing around him, basically. So even
this wasn't a nice trip, the first one. So

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what happened next was that he reported to
his superiors at Sandoz Chemical in Basel,

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and they had the idea of turning this
into a substance for many doctors,

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psychiatrists, psychologists, to experience
what it would be like to be psychotic. So

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its first application of LSD was as a
psychotomimetic. And as a psychoto-

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mimetic, thousands of dosages were
distributed worldwide from the

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Czech Republic to Harvard University to
everywhere. And doctors tried it out. What

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happened then was that a small group of
young, ambitious psychologists around

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Timothy Leary tried it out too, and
thought this is not just something for

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doctors. This is not just a psychoto-
mimetic and brought it out basically into,

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yeah, the real world. And people were
experimenting with LSD quite a bit in the

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’60s before it was forbidden in ’71. Not
because it turned out to be so dangerous.

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They were not so many accidents. Not so
many people had dire side effects. But

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because the political will to cope with
the substance and its implications wasn't

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existent in the Nixon era. So. ’71,
underground goes into subculture. But the

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genie was out of the bottle and it was not
going to go back in. And psychedelics, not

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only LSD, but also Psilocybin, later on
MDMA. And these days, more than 500 new

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psychoactive substances that have been
brought up on the black market are around

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us. And people use them. It's a societal
reality that our juridical system doesn't

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keep up with, to be fair. So it's been in
many subcultural setting from people just

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going dancing and having a good time to
self-exploration to pseudo-chamanic or

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chamanic settings. And I think most people
will at least know somebody who have

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experienced psychedelics at least once.
And then something else changed. A few

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years ago, let’s say, 10-ish, 10 years ago,
psychedelics started coming back. There

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had been research, for example, at the
University of Zürich around psychedelics

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before that already. There had been trials
before. But the big comeback of substances

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like psilocybin, LSD, and MDMA as tools to
augment psychotherapy was within the last

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10 or 15 years. So these people up here
are some of the people worldwide working

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with these substances, trying to develop
them into medications. So … not

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over-the-counter, but prescription
medications to be applied within the

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setting of psychotherapy. So the idea is
never that somebody can walk into a

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pharmacy saying, oh, I'm depressed, I want
to buy psilocybin to treat myself, but to

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have a structured therapeutical session in
which the effects can be contained and the

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benefits enhanced. So the ones that are
most promising these days are psilocybin

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for depression, which is already heading
for the third stage, third and final stage

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of approvement as medication within the USA
and consecutively hopefully in Europe. And

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MDMA, so what is used? What people want to
find if they buy ecstasy, not that they

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always get it, but MDMA is the substance
they're trying to get, for post-traumatic

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stress disorder (PTSD). In the U.S., even
the Veterans Association has jumped on the

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bandwagon and has sponsored this research,
which is interesting at least. But isn't

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that harmful? Aren't these substances
very dangerous? Well, not in the way you

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think and not as much as you might think.
This graphic up here is something that was

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put together by a group of 40 experts who
discussed what substances have what harm

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on the user and what harm on the people
around the users. So, for example, alcohol

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is harmful for the person, giving them a
liver disorder, making them addicted and

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so on, so on. But also because people get
aggressive when they use it or drive

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dangerously, for example, when they're
intoxicated, it's dangerous to others. If

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you check out. I have to walk over here
now. Sorry to the camera people. The

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substances we're talking about for
treatment are not up there with the very

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dangerous ones. We have the shrooms down
here, the LSD is there, ecstasy is there.

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So very low danger to the user and almost
no danger to other people. If you compare

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that to alcohol, heroin, tobacco, it's all
up there. And, to be quite fair, we’re all

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part of a giant field study anyway. Because
these substances <i>are</i> being used. This is

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data from the 2017 Global Drug Survey,
which is a self-reporting study where

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people talk about their own drug use
and fill in forms online. This is not a

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statistically sound sample of the general
population because to fill out that trial,

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you have to have a certain interest. But
the people that have filled this out—

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we're talking about a number of 
over 115.000 worldwide—say that

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they have, in their lifetime, partially 
used LSD. … were the numbers …? MDMA,

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mushrooms and LSD, so MDMA 35%, 
mushrooms almost 25%, LSD over 22%.

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And if you look around you, of
how many people do you know who

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ended up in an emergency department
or in a psychiatric ward due to _only_ using

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those substances? Actually, looking at
this giant field study that the illegal

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market has provided us with, it seems to
be rather safe because these people

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are not using clear dosages of a clean
substance and still there's hardly

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anything happening. OK. But what about
microdosing? Well. We don't know much

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about microdosing, in fact. There are no
scientifically randomized controlled

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studies, as to yet; the first ones are just
starting. There are self-reporting studies

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where people have filled out online forms.
And it seems to be that what people are on

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one hand trying to achieve is, yes,
enhancing creativity, getting better work

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performance. But a lot of them are trying
to treat, cure, enhance that latent or

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apparent depression, and the other thing
is: microdosing—which is defined mostly as

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using a very low, almost subliminal dose
of a psychoactive substance such as LSD—is

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being done by people with all sorts. There
are people microdosing MDMA and ibogaine,

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which is, if you look at the receptor
profiles, just insane basically and

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frankly can't do what they hope it does.
And when we took a look at people who

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microdose, we can't say how much of
the effect they’re feeling is really from

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microdosing that substance or if we have a
top-notch, first-grade placebo effect going

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on where people feel much better because
they have taken this and believe in it.

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Let's not turn down placebo. Placebo is
extremely valuable medically. It’s

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actually shown that placebo effect, for
example, enhance the endogenous opioid

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production. So your body revs up towards
healing, towards feeling better with the

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placebo effect. But this could also be
done with a sugar pill. And there's one

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thing I just want to leave with you in
this group. If anybody of you is

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microdosing and has preexisting heart
condition: don't! Simply because some of

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the subreceptors, especially with LSD that
are being activated in prolonged micro

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dosing for a long time can be cardiotoxic
and possibly harm your heart. Just again,

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there's not clear data about this yet.
Just to leave it with you, if you suffer

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from a heart condition: don’t!
Depression. That keyword I had with the

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microdosing as well. But let's go
deeper into this, because if we want to

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talk about how psychedelic medicine can
really make a difference in psychiatry,

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depression is like, yeah, the first-line
thing to think and talk about and why is

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that? Depression is a very serious
psychiatric disorder. People who are

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severely depressed—and that's many people;
statistically, in Germany, every 8th

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woman is likely to suffer from a severe
depressive episode. At one point in their

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life or the other. People who are
depressed lose social functioning. They

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have very decreased life expectancy
partially through suicide, partially

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because they don't manage to care for
themselves. These people lose themselves

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and are being lost for others, too. And
there is treatment for depression, yes,

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but in many cases it only has a limited
capacity. And even though depression is a

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worldwide epidemic—with rates from 
3% of the population in China to

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22% of the population in Afghanistan
suffering from it—there have not really

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been new forms of treatment for two, two
and a half decades‽ So the stuff we're

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working with is partially working, partly
not: about one third of patients don't

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react to the medication at all, even
though there's different types. And those

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who do usually have very low rates of
acceptance because of the side effects.

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Because many people use antidepressants,
and the best combination is cognitive

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behavior therapy—so what is called in
German “Verhaltenstherapie,” cognitive

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behavioral therapy—in conjunction with
antidepressants. That might work, but for

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some it doesn't. And those who take the
medication don't feel well. It's not that

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they're back to normal. They're just less
depressed. But usually they're like dimmed

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in on all sides. So they are still not
getting happy. The libido is decreased.

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Their activity levels are decreased.
People are suffering quite a bit from the

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side effects and it's really not nice. So.
I was just … just to tell you one

00:19:00.910 --> 00:19:05.549
little story. I told you I’m an
emergency medicine doctor. And just

00:19:05.549 --> 00:19:14.040
to illustrate how bad depression can get:
A few weeks ago, I was being called out to

00:19:14.040 --> 00:19:20.380
an attempt of suicide. A woman had jumped
out of her window on the fourth floor. We

00:19:20.380 --> 00:19:27.670
found her lying in her yard and she was...
injured, badly injured, but still alive,

00:19:27.670 --> 00:19:34.530
and we stabilized her and took her to
hospital, and when the nurse kind of

00:19:34.530 --> 00:19:40.270
pulled up her data in the emergency room,
she went like, oh, no, not again, because

00:19:40.270 --> 00:19:46.570
this woman had jumped out the same window
just half a year before. That's how bad

00:19:46.570 --> 00:19:54.110
this disease can be. So how desperate
people get and how terribly important it

00:19:54.110 --> 00:19:59.950
is for us not to look away, but try to
find better new therapies. And this is, in

00:19:59.950 --> 00:20:04.070
my opinion, with psychedelic medicine …
Psychedelic therapy can be a real game

00:20:04.070 --> 00:20:12.200
changer. The one therapeutic application
we have the best data for is psychedelics

00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:17.450
for treatment-resistant depression. There
are several studies going on in the UK, in

00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:23.640
the States, and Switzerland, but also in
the Czech Republic and so on, so on. And

00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.510
what they seem to be finding is that even
though they're still working with small

00:20:27.510 --> 00:20:32.830
samples because you have to fan out; if
you try to bring out a medication like

00:20:32.830 --> 00:20:37.180
that, you have to show first that it's
safe with healthy people and then you

00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:41.016
start with a small sample of sick people
and then you enlarge it from there. And

00:20:41.016 --> 00:20:47.980
they’re now in this enlarging process …
that's treating depression with psilocybin

00:20:47.980 --> 00:20:53.260
especially does not only decrease
depression in those patients, but also

00:20:53.260 --> 00:20:58.790
does one great thing: it decreases
anxiety! Not only talking about state

00:20:58.790 --> 00:21:04.500
anxiety, so how anxious people are at this
very moment in living their lives, but

00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:09.990
that trait anxiety. So how anxious people
are as a part of their personality, which

00:21:09.990 --> 00:21:16.930
is a good thing to gauge how likely people
are to relapse back into depression,

00:21:16.930 --> 00:21:20.500
people that are very anxious, very
insecure about life, are far more likely

00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:29.270
to relapse. OK, so you see, there's a lot
happening worldwide studying this, but

00:21:29.270 --> 00:21:37.580
this is Germany on that. A scientific
desert. We're in the largest country;

00:21:37.580 --> 00:21:41.710
It’s also the scientifically perhaps most
important country when it comes to medical

00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:45.290
research in Europe. There’s zilch
happening. There hasn't been a study on

00:21:45.290 --> 00:21:50.532
psychoactive compounds in this context,
forever, like 30 years, the last one on

00:21:50.532 --> 00:21:56.169
entactogens like 20 years ago. But
studying psychedelic here hasn't happened.

00:21:56.169 --> 00:22:08.279
And we want to change that. Let’s …
<i>applause</i>

00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:14.140
So we as the main foundation had, perhaps,
let's call it groundbreaking, what a

00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:19.090
groundbreaking conference this September
in Berlin at the Charité buildings.

00:22:19.090 --> 00:22:23.770
We had 600 participants, over 50
speakers from worldwide, everybody

00:22:23.770 --> 00:22:29.470
basically, almost everybody who's
important in this dialog scientifically

00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:33.990
was around. So from the pharmacology, the
psychiatrist, the psychologist, the

00:22:33.990 --> 00:22:41.580
therapist, but also philosophers talking
about a culture of older sets of mind have

00:22:41.580 --> 00:22:46.049
been around. And we have been trying to
bring this to the German public and try to

00:22:46.049 --> 00:22:55.320
lay groundwork for doing new science in
Germany. And what's to come next is this.

00:22:55.320 --> 00:23:01.260
With our P.I., so a principal investigator,
Gerhard Gründer, who is a

00:23:01.260 --> 00:23:09.220
new pharmacologist from the University of
Mannheim ZI. We are about to apply for the

00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:16.020
1st psilocybin depression study in Germany
this next year. So in 2020, we're

00:23:16.020 --> 00:23:20.040
putting in the applications, we've already
put the first paperwork in, and what we

00:23:20.040 --> 00:23:26.360
want to do is do a double standard study,
both at the ZI Mannheim and the

00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:30.192
Charité Berlin. Those are the two most
renowned psychiatric research facilities

00:23:30.192 --> 00:23:35.040
in Germany. And it's a collaboration from
the ZI, Charité, and the MIND Foundation.

00:23:35.040 --> 00:23:40.799
Each group contributing their knowledge,
their capabilities, and their strengths.

00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:47.210
And what we want to do is this. We
want to do a double blind, randomized

00:23:47.210 --> 00:23:54.690
controlled phase IIa study. Big word.
this basically means that … It’s a

00:23:54.690 --> 00:23:59.240
top-notch level, internationally acclaimed
study. This is how these studies need to be

00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:03.780
done to have any value. So it's double
blind, meaning that neither the patient

00:24:03.780 --> 00:24:09.690
nor the therapist know what this patient
is getting. It's randomized. So this gets

00:24:09.690 --> 00:24:14.650
assigned without anybody playing around
with it. And phase II means that it's a

00:24:14.650 --> 00:24:20.840
safety and efficacy study, so not yet dose
testing and not yet comparing dosages, but

00:24:20.840 --> 00:24:26.730
just trying to make sure it works. And we
are going to do that in a 144 participants

00:24:26.730 --> 00:24:32.780
sample in total, in two locations, which
is huge. This will be the second or third

00:24:32.780 --> 00:24:37.260
biggest sample worldwide doing this. And
the first one in Germany, as we said and

00:24:37.260 --> 00:24:42.390
what we are going to test is 25
milligrams of standardised GMP. So

00:24:42.390 --> 00:24:47.049
Medical Grade Psilocybin versus two active
placebos. One being a small dose of

00:24:47.049 --> 00:24:52.500
psilocybin, which used to be the standard
thing to do. But now talking about

00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:58.400
microdosing, what is if the small doses
already does something? And testing it

00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:02.950
against another placebo that isn't
psilocybin, which is: there’s some physical

00:25:02.950 --> 00:25:10.620
reaction, but is not psychedelic in this
sense. So in this design, every patient

00:25:10.620 --> 00:25:15.690
will receive at least one—some two—high
dosages of psilocybin. So everybody who

00:25:15.690 --> 00:25:22.039
gets accepted will have his try. And the
study design consists of preparation

00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:27.150
sessions, dosing sessions where people
receive either placebo or psilocybin and

00:25:27.150 --> 00:25:32.930
integration sessions. Integration is so
important and not only in a scientific

00:25:32.930 --> 00:25:36.830
study on this topic, but if people are
working with psychedelics, experimenting

00:25:36.830 --> 00:25:41.850
with psychedelics themselves, integration
is the key to do something with the

00:25:41.850 --> 00:25:46.259
experience. Because if you don't work with
it actively, the experience is going to

00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:50.770
fade. And you might remember something
about what you learned, but it will not

00:25:50.770 --> 00:25:56.880
have the impact on you, your life, and how
you—yeah—benefit from what you've seen

00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:02.890
and learned in that way. Right. Just one
more sentence. It's mixed funding, its

00:26:02.890 --> 00:26:07.010
funding and progress. So we have some
public money coming in, but we're also

00:26:07.010 --> 00:26:12.669
looking for donations and investment just
at the side. And this is almost the end of

00:26:12.669 --> 00:26:18.610
my talk. What I want to say is the
following: What we try at the moment

00:26:18.610 --> 00:26:25.070
is to establish safe and legal psychedelic
therapies in Germany, Europe, and the

00:26:25.070 --> 00:26:30.250
world. This is going to take time. If
things go well, we might be there in five

00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:35.340
to ten years—five if things go really
well. And I know that it's very tempting

00:26:35.340 --> 00:26:40.490
for many people to say: “Well, I can 
just go to somebody and have a

00:26:40.490 --> 00:26:44.520
psilocybin session. I can go to somebody,
have an ayahuasca session.” And yes, you

00:26:44.520 --> 00:26:49.000
can. But be aware if you do that, because
you're really suffering from psychiatric

00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:53.130
disease, if you have a mental illness, if
you really are in distress. Be very

00:26:53.130 --> 00:26:57.340
careful with yourself, because the thing
is, you need somebody to really support

00:26:57.340 --> 00:27:01.180
you, really help you through somebody who
really knows what they're dealing with,

00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:06.210
because otherwise you can do yourself more
harm than good. This picture down there

00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:11.921
with the ambulance is a real picture. 
Right. That's what I wanted to say.

00:27:11.921 --> 00:27:15.839
Thank you very much for having me. If 
you're interested in what we're doing,

00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:23.740
check it out!
<i>appplause</i>

00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:29.360
Herald: Andrea, thank you very much.
That gives us plenty of time for some

00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:34.730
questions. People are lining up on the
microphones already. So we start with

00:27:34.730 --> 00:27:39.540
microphone number two, please.
Mic 1: Thank you for this amazing talk.

00:27:39.540 --> 00:27:43.510
That's really great. Just one question.
Wouldn't that be a problem for a double

00:27:43.510 --> 00:27:48.980
blind study if a person can surely tell if
they're experiencing psychedelic effects?

00:27:48.980 --> 00:27:54.980
Andrea: That is a problem. Yes, but this
is the way the authorities request the

00:27:54.980 --> 00:27:59.039
study to be done. And interestingly
enough, there have been cases where people

00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:07.630
couldn't tell. If people thought they were
either on a small dosage or on a high

00:28:07.630 --> 00:28:16.057
dosage, or even if they where on an
inactive placebo. Right. So the self…

00:28:16.057 --> 00:28:20.590
Yeah, self-suggestive capabilities of
people should not be underestimated

00:28:20.590 --> 00:28:23.759
either.
Herald: Okay, then we're going to jump

00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:28.260
over to number six.
Mic 6: Thank you very much for the

00:28:28.260 --> 00:28:36.880
talk. I would like to hear your opinion on
the fact that, uh, like in the last 150

00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:46.549
years, most drug agents were discovered
in Germany, and meanwhile, we have

00:28:46.549 --> 00:28:53.640
the pity of scientifically Germany
lying in Arizona.

00:28:53.640 --> 00:29:05.690
<i>laughter</i>
Andrea: Right. Germany has two points that

00:29:05.690 --> 00:29:12.650
historically hold us back. One is the
forced human trials during the Nazi era

00:29:12.650 --> 00:29:19.349
where substances, techniques, were tested on
concentration camp prisoners. And we have

00:29:19.349 --> 00:29:27.460
the Contergan scandal that harmed so many
people and led to, in all of the world,

00:29:27.460 --> 00:29:34.690
the stricter rules we have now. That's two
reasons why Germany is so reluctant to

00:29:34.690 --> 00:29:41.660
expose itself in this kind of process. But
still, it is a pity. And I think it is

00:29:41.660 --> 00:29:46.011
about time that the German not only
government, but also the scientific

00:29:46.011 --> 00:29:53.160
establishment gets to understand that they
lose out and they are trading behind a

00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.950
development that has
started and will continue.

00:29:57.950 --> 00:30:01.920
Herald: And now we have a question
from the Internet, I hear.

00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:07.120
Signal Angel: Yes! For people
struggling with depression, anxiety, or

00:30:07.120 --> 00:30:12.150
mental illnesses: What specific options
are there in Europe with regards to

00:30:12.150 --> 00:30:18.240
psychedelic-assisted therapy?
Andrea: Well, one is that you can try to

00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.820
participate in the existing trial. So, for
example, in London, there's Kings College

00:30:22.820 --> 00:30:28.350
and Imperial College, there's a group in
Bristol working, there's also therapy

00:30:28.350 --> 00:30:34.530
happening in Switzerland and so on. And
there's also, if you happen to be lucky

00:30:34.530 --> 00:30:38.260
enough to live in Switzerland, there's the
so-called compassionate use where

00:30:38.260 --> 00:30:44.020
psychiatrists with special permits are
allowed to use LSD and MDMA as therapeutic

00:30:44.020 --> 00:30:49.127
agents on a case-to-case basis that they
have to discuss with the authorities.

00:30:49.127 --> 00:30:54.079
So that's all we can say for now:
study participation or compassionate use.

00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:57.420
We just really hope that
things will rev up and we'll be able

00:30:57.420 --> 00:31:02.050
to offer more in the future.
Herald: And microphone number 4, please.

00:31:02.050 --> 00:31:05.071
Mic 4: Yeah. Hello. Thank you
very much for your talk.

00:31:05.071 --> 00:31:10.110
My question is more related to
the history of the uses of psychedelics

00:31:10.110 --> 00:31:17.890
in the US and to the MAPS Association
founded by Rick Doblin, but I was curious,

00:31:17.890 --> 00:31:25.510
how would you explain that MAPS is so
actively criticizing the experiments led

00:31:25.510 --> 00:31:35.509
in the 1950s and ’60s by the CIA, and yet
they accept donations of several million

00:31:35.509 --> 00:31:42.010
dollars coming from the Mercer family, who
are among the largest shareholders of

00:31:42.010 --> 00:31:47.720
Cambridge Analytica, Breitbart News, and
they also accept, they accepted recently

00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:54.300
about three millions from members of Tea
Party. Isn't it a bit of an irony here?

00:31:54.300 --> 00:32:03.429
<i>applause</i>
Andrea: That is a very good question. The

00:32:03.429 --> 00:32:11.200
way I know Rick Doblin and many people
from MAPS personally, I know that they're

00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:16.860
pursuing an honest goal. What they’re
trying to do is bring this into the world

00:32:16.860 --> 00:32:22.929
and they have been doing that since 1986.
So they've been on this for almost 35

00:32:22.929 --> 00:32:27.830
years. He's dedicated his life to doing
that. I don't fully understand his

00:32:27.830 --> 00:32:32.740
motives. I don't have to, to be honest,
because I'm not speaking for him. I think

00:32:32.740 --> 00:32:39.980
there is a huge necessity for integrity
because if we don't—as people working

00:32:39.980 --> 00:32:46.440
with it scientifically—if we don't move
along with the necessary integrity, we're

00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:52.070
opening the doors for other people to
don't care at all. But on the other hand,

00:32:52.070 --> 00:32:57.150
finding the money, getting this done and a
lot … he was … Rick was criticized a lot,

00:32:57.150 --> 00:33:03.699
for example, for accepting veterans;
snipers from Iraq into his therapy

00:33:03.699 --> 00:33:08.079
program. Like, okay, are you not getting
people fit again to go out back to the

00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:15.581
battlefield? And I find this all very
difficult because there is a thing that is

00:33:15.581 --> 00:33:20.690
called perpetrated PTSD. There is a thing
of people only realizing afterwards what

00:33:20.690 --> 00:33:26.809
they have done. And I would not … I
would be very careful in judging people in

00:33:26.809 --> 00:33:32.780
distress. But you're very right. It's a
very delicate topic. And I think we all

00:33:32.780 --> 00:33:36.900
have to be very aware that there are thin
paths we are threading in what we're

00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:41.230
doing there. When we accept money that
comes from sources that don't follow

00:33:41.230 --> 00:33:45.240
ethical standards.
Herald: Then we're going to switch over to

00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:49.730
microphone number five.
Mic 5: Hello, I guess you have a really

00:33:49.730 --> 00:33:55.730
nice answer to the following statement. So
I hope you will share your answer:

00:33:55.730 --> 00:34:01.950
Little Greta twittered today that the
house is on fire and just that. So

00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:07.781
actually that means an adequate reaction
would be to jump out of the window. So you

00:34:07.781 --> 00:34:12.210
could argue that actually we should rescue
all the people that are really down, like

00:34:12.210 --> 00:34:16.970
down and out, because they cannot help us
anymore. But actually, we should get the

00:34:16.970 --> 00:34:22.210
people that are still happy to be a little
depressed instead of all getting them

00:34:22.210 --> 00:34:30.570
happy. What do you say?
Andrea: There's always two ways of dealing

00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:40.429
with a system: You can step out of it,
and you can try to change it from within.

00:34:40.429 --> 00:34:47.020
It is always very difficult to go from
caring for the individual to things that

00:34:47.020 --> 00:34:53.889
are right for all. And me being a doctor,
for example, I have simply decided to put

00:34:53.889 --> 00:34:59.170
the individual in the center of my
concern, and I think others need to put

00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:03.790
the greater good in the center of their
concern. I think it's inconsolable. We

00:35:03.790 --> 00:35:08.030
can't do both at the same time. So it's
good to make your decision and do this

00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:12.099
what you do with all your heart.
Herald: Then we're going to switch over to

00:35:12.099 --> 00:35:15.730
the Internet again.
Signal Angel: Yes. And do you know of any

00:35:15.730 --> 00:35:21.290
studies or evidence corroborating the
other side, like triggering mental

00:35:21.290 --> 00:35:26.760
illnesses by using psychedelics, for
example, if you have a family history of …?

00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:31.880
Andrea: Well, doing a randomized,
controlled study with that would be

00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:38.330
unethical. So what we have is the
epidemiological and the anecdotal

00:35:38.330 --> 00:35:44.020
evidence that is found. So, yes,
if you have a predisposition for

00:35:44.020 --> 00:35:49.890
psychosis, for schizophrenia, for mental
instability, there is a large chance of

00:35:49.890 --> 00:35:54.570
triggering that if you use psychedelics.
But on the other hand, many people try to

00:35:54.570 --> 00:35:58.920
self-medicate with substances, be it
psychedelics or cannabis, because they're

00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:04.470
feeling they're already on the edge of
some instability. But the current paradigm

00:36:04.470 --> 00:36:09.470
for the studies is to exclude people
whose direct family is affected by

00:36:09.470 --> 00:36:13.280
psychosis.
Herald: Number two just disappeared, so

00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:18.720
we're gonna go straight over to four.
Mic 4: I would like to ask you whether you

00:36:18.720 --> 00:36:23.460
changed your mind about anything related
to psychedelics in last few years or if

00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:33.010
you have seen something in the
research that really surprised you?

00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:43.839
Andrea: Let’s … Well, I am worried. In a
few respects. Like, for example, the whole

00:36:43.839 --> 00:36:52.170
development around the 5-MeO scene, people
using bufo alvarius toxins for very, very strong

00:36:52.170 --> 00:36:56.020
psychedelic experiences, sometimes risking
their live doing it. This whole scene

00:36:56.020 --> 00:37:01.301
kind of lifting from the ground and going
in a very strange direction, in my

00:37:01.301 --> 00:37:05.030
opinion. This is kind of worrying me
because I think people are not taking the

00:37:05.030 --> 00:37:11.550
care they should be taking of themselves
in what they are doing. But otherwise, I

00:37:11.550 --> 00:37:16.260
think scientific results we're seeing are
rather consistent. It's very important to

00:37:16.260 --> 00:37:21.007
know that these are not magic bullets and
not expect too much. You can’t expect

00:37:21.007 --> 00:37:25.930
something to cure everything. And
psychedelics seem to be a good idea

00:37:25.930 --> 00:37:31.178
for people who are rigid, transfixed, not
able to transcend something. But people

00:37:31.178 --> 00:37:35.005
who are already like in a chaotic state
are very unlikely to benefit. And I think

00:37:35.005 --> 00:37:38.350
that's a very good basic rule. And
this is something I see proven

00:37:38.350 --> 00:37:41.740
time and time again.
Herald: Number five, please.

00:37:41.740 --> 00:37:46.940
Mic 5: Hi, thanks. Regarding certain
setting and how it can have such a huge

00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:52.940
influence on one's experience, can you
comment on the setting of the new

00:37:52.940 --> 00:37:58.140
psilocybin study in the upcoming year?
Andrea: Like all the studies that are

00:37:58.140 --> 00:38:03.030
being ta… being done, certain settings
are being taken into consideration. These

00:38:03.030 --> 00:38:09.650
people don't trip in a sterile white
hospital bed. They get to have their

00:38:09.650 --> 00:38:14.480
psychedelic experience in a warm,
comfortable, organic, welcoming

00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:22.030
environment. For example, on a couch with
a nice cushion, nice dim light, flowers,

00:38:22.030 --> 00:38:27.340
music is extremely important. There have
been released scientific works around what

00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:31.146
kind of music is beneficial for those.
Mendel Kaelen, for example, at Imperial

00:38:31.146 --> 00:38:36.160
College is a specialist in this kind of
music and is being taken very seriously.

00:38:36.160 --> 00:38:43.008
Also, those questions of how much physical
contact is beneficial, is allowed. What

00:38:43.008 --> 00:38:48.020
could harm the patient is discussed very
precisely in all those groups I know,

00:38:48.020 --> 00:38:52.330
because this is so much more than just a
pill. This is really about making sure

00:38:52.330 --> 00:38:58.700
that people have a safe experience where
they can, yeah, come to healing inside

00:38:58.700 --> 00:39:01.060
themselves
Mic 5: Thank you.

00:39:01.060 --> 00:39:05.800
Herald: So we have time for one more
question. Number one, please.

00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:09.770
Mic 1: I don't know if I want to hear the
answer, but do you think it would help

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your cause if you would stop
take these drugs for fun?

00:39:16.750 --> 00:39:25.690
Andrea: My answer to this is the
following: Imagine there was a food

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thing, something that tasted nice; let’s
say chocolate and there were people

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who could only survive if they got
chocolate. But because everybody else was

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doing it too, and it was somehow
not okay, it would be forbidden for

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everybody. Then I would say, well if you
replace chocolate with LSD, I think there

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are people there who really need it. And
we have to be careful that recreational

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use and playing around with drugs doesn't
spoil their chance to something lifesaving

00:39:59.260 --> 00:40:03.710
because they need the chocolate. You might
get along without, but it's something we

00:40:03.710 --> 00:40:08.890
have to take into consideration. This
doesn't mean it's wrong to have psychedelic

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experience for your own benefit, for your
own betterment, for your own fun. But just

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keep in mind, if you're hindering with
your wanting to have a good time that

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somebody gets a life-saving therapy,
perhaps, then this is an ethical problem

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we are facing.
Herald: Andrea, thank you so much.

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That's your applause.
<i>applause</i>

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