1
00:00:02,381 --> 00:00:11,413
36C3 preroll music
2
00:00:19,215 --> 00:00:25,060
Herald: Okay. As you probably know, Julian
Assange, as well as his colleagues and
3
00:00:25,060 --> 00:00:30,450
friends and associates, were extensively
surveilled during his time at the embassy.
4
00:00:30,450 --> 00:00:36,680
And our next speaker, Andy, is going to
talk about procedural and technical
5
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:42,660
details of that surveillance, which is
what we're really interested in, that's
6
00:00:42,660 --> 00:00:48,940
why the room is full. So, Andy, "Technical
Aspects of the Surveillance in and around
7
00:00:48,940 --> 00:00:53,230
the Ecuadorian Embassy in London", please
give him a warm round of applause.
8
00:00:53,230 --> 00:01:02,130
applause
9
00:01:02,390 --> 00:01:05,519
Andy Müller-Maguhn: Okay. Good morning,
everybody. I'm holding this talk,
10
00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:10,650
actually, for the second time. The first
time was on day one, but somehow the video
11
00:01:10,650 --> 00:01:17,460
recording got fucked up. I would say CIA,
but at this early time of the talk you
12
00:01:17,460 --> 00:01:23,437
might think I'm paranoid, but I'm... well,
we can discuss that after my talk again.
13
00:01:23,437 --> 00:01:26,787
laughter
applause
14
00:01:26,787 --> 00:01:31,639
Andy: The two dis...
oh fuck...
15
00:01:31,639 --> 00:01:35,832
laughter
16
00:01:39,694 --> 00:01:42,055
Herald: Anyone here who knows computers?
17
00:01:42,055 --> 00:01:44,597
laughter
18
00:01:54,009 --> 00:01:58,799
Andy: Let's try again. Does this work?
19
00:01:58,799 --> 00:02:03,690
applause
20
00:02:03,690 --> 00:02:07,020
Andy: OK. So, the presentation does cover
21
00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:13,579
some, but not... gosh, being awake on day
4... This presentation does cover some,
22
00:02:13,579 --> 00:02:19,970
but not all aspects of the surveillance.
There is, of course, stuff happened on the
23
00:02:19,970 --> 00:02:27,310
wireless network, on the bound network.
There was more things going on. There was
24
00:02:27,310 --> 00:02:31,489
an ongoing heat in the embassy, which made
us think they might be using nanometer
25
00:02:31,489 --> 00:02:36,959
waves to look through the walls and from
the ceilings above and below and so on.
26
00:02:36,959 --> 00:02:43,200
However, we are still getting
documentation about other things. So this
27
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,919
is like the state of affairs right now. I
will probably make a long video of
28
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:54,189
explaining things with also more details
later this year. Second disclaimer, what
29
00:02:54,189 --> 00:03:01,370
I'm presenting is mostly stuff from a
company called Undercover Global. They are
30
00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:09,540
subject to an ongoing lawsuit. The owner
of the company and CEO has been accepting
31
00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:15,819
third party instructions and a lot of
money and has been modifying the official
32
00:03:15,819 --> 00:03:22,000
product, cause and technology used. He's
investigated for violating laws of
33
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:29,150
privacy, secrecy of lawyer-client-attorney
thingy, whatever the English term is,
34
00:03:29,150 --> 00:03:33,669
bribery, money laundering and so on. And
also the Spanish justice has very
35
00:03:33,669 --> 00:03:39,349
officially started investigation for a
spying foreign foreign intelligence
36
00:03:39,349 --> 00:03:44,919
service, namely the CIA. At the time of
the presentation right today, however, he
37
00:03:44,919 --> 00:03:50,819
is not charged. So this is a subject of
ongoing things. And of course, we don't
38
00:03:50,819 --> 00:03:56,790
have the material from other intelligence
services who have been working around the
39
00:03:56,790 --> 00:04:03,569
embassy although we have some indications
of what they have been doing. As this is a
40
00:04:03,569 --> 00:04:09,599
rather 80 slide plus videos presentation,
I thought it's a good idea to give you a
41
00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:15,709
rough overview of what this is about. I'm
trying to give you the big picture, the
42
00:04:15,709 --> 00:04:21,330
embassy overview, so that you understand
the building, the rooms and so on. The so-
43
00:04:21,330 --> 00:04:27,110
called "Operation Hotel", that was the
official task of the company at the time
44
00:04:27,110 --> 00:04:32,540
to protect the embassy against people
intruding and so on, taking care of the
45
00:04:32,540 --> 00:04:37,680
guests, so they had their own terminology.
The standard operational procedures in
46
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:44,580
place, the modifications that, as
indicated, David Morales instructed or got
47
00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:51,520
instructed from US intelligence to do.
Overview of what they collected on
48
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,840
visitors. Then, there was a special event
in December 2017 when they went actually
49
00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:02,930
through the whole embassy to identify all
kinds of objects. They documented every
50
00:05:02,930 --> 00:05:08,630
piece of furniture to see where they could
include more hidden bugs and other things
51
00:05:08,630 --> 00:05:18,510
and upgrades to the security situation. A
short thing about what Julian did to
52
00:05:18,510 --> 00:05:24,320
counter the surveillance and how they
countered his countermeasures. And then at
53
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,180
the end, something about the term
"Actionable Intelligence", which becomes
54
00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:35,860
very plastic. The context is, of course,
that Julian has taken the idea of the
55
00:05:35,860 --> 00:05:41,500
hacker ethic, said all information should
be free, serious to an extent, and has
56
00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:46,010
been committed to that, that we can, of
course, also say, well, he has won
57
00:05:46,010 --> 00:05:50,360
probably one of the highest journalistic
prizes being carried out out of a
58
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:58,680
protected embassy. That's quite a reward
and quite a recognition that he and the
59
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,340
people in power he exposed had the
impression that they don't fit together on
60
00:06:03,340 --> 00:06:10,340
the same planet in this situation.
However, the big picture is to make you
61
00:06:10,340 --> 00:06:16,280
understand the historic overview of
events. So there was a initial phase when
62
00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:21,090
he got into the embassy when they were
actually unprepared, of course, for him
63
00:06:21,090 --> 00:06:26,240
coming in there. And they actually had a
surveillance camera for checking the
64
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:32,180
visitors before they entered the building.
But that was more or less it. Then in 2015
65
00:06:32,180 --> 00:06:37,620
this company got engaged and installed a
lot of things. There was, however, three
66
00:06:37,620 --> 00:06:44,920
different phases which I want to separate
here for you to understand when the first
67
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:51,120
phase was under U.S. President Obama and
the more left wing government of Ecuador
68
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:57,120
under President Correa. However, right at
the beginning of the engagement of
69
00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:03,530
Undercover Global for the Ecuadorian
foreign ministry to protect the embassy he
70
00:07:03,530 --> 00:07:11,550
went to a security conference, or however,
to Las Vegas and presented his little
71
00:07:11,550 --> 00:07:16,450
company and the one customer they had. So
that's so much about the size of the
72
00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:19,720
company. He presented like the one
customer, the one project they did that
73
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:25,200
was taking care of the embassy and of
course quickly found interested parties
74
00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:32,340
from the US security environment to boost
up his career. And so his spying for third
75
00:07:32,340 --> 00:07:37,340
party started right away. At the beginning
he received payments from a company called
76
00:07:37,340 --> 00:07:42,310
Las Vegas Sense that's owned by Sheldon
Adelson. He was officially hired to take
77
00:07:42,310 --> 00:07:47,870
care of a yacht of Sheldon Adelson
although that yacht already had a security
78
00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:54,460
team. So there's ongoing investigations
also where the money came from and so on.
79
00:07:54,460 --> 00:08:02,900
However, in phase two, 2017, so after some
publications had upset the US maybe even
80
00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:10,560
more and also the Ecuadorian government
had changed in the midst of or the
81
00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:17,250
beginning of 2017. They started serious
modifications of the protocol. Not only
82
00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:20,190
that he switched to encrypted
communication with his employees, with his
83
00:08:20,190 --> 00:08:27,430
instructions. He also, like, pressured
from his American friends, the wish to
84
00:08:27,430 --> 00:08:33,250
have covert audio bugs, higher resolution
cameras, and also cameras in all rooms
85
00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:40,449
with audio. We can say pretty sure that
this has been done on behalf of the US as
86
00:08:40,449 --> 00:08:45,720
the emails he sent to instruct this
modifications - we have all those emails -
87
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,329
the emails show the IP numbers they have
been sending for, the lawyers have
88
00:08:49,329 --> 00:08:55,990
analyzed this. So we know that he has been
in Virginia Arlington and in Las Vegas and
89
00:08:55,990 --> 00:09:01,230
other places, when he came with these
instructions. Also his language, his
90
00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:05,580
English was not very good and technically,
he was not very sophisticated, but he
91
00:09:05,580 --> 00:09:10,649
sometimes sent instructions in very good
English with presentations and detailed
92
00:09:10,649 --> 00:09:17,640
technical details that clearly came not
from him, which also was obtained. So we
93
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:24,519
are pretty confident in these things that we
claim here. And then there was something
94
00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:28,990
going on at the end of 2017, which I'll
explain later. However, I want to point
95
00:09:28,990 --> 00:09:36,480
out a complete different thing, which
might be or might have led to confusion.
96
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:42,279
At April 2018 two things happened: The
Ecuadorians, the new government of
97
00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:47,290
Ecuador, made a mutual legal assistance
agreement with the United States in the
98
00:09:47,290 --> 00:09:53,839
investigation against Assange, as they
justified it with the interference in the
99
00:09:53,839 --> 00:10:00,550
elections, so to give the Ecuadorians like
a plausible reason to help them. The
100
00:10:00,550 --> 00:10:04,620
cooperation with UC Global was canceled
because they were unsatisfied with their
101
00:10:04,620 --> 00:10:09,790
quality of their work. And they installed
a second company called Prom Security,
102
00:10:09,790 --> 00:10:15,362
which is an Ecuadorian company made up by
a former colonel of their local
103
00:10:15,362 --> 00:10:20,920
intelligence, which then did the
surveillance. And probably that material
104
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:26,700
could more easily be used in any legal
proceedings as everything that happened
105
00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:34,899
before was plainly illegal. However, the
material of that second company landed
106
00:10:34,899 --> 00:10:40,420
partly in an extortion attempt against
WikiLeaks, against Julian, against...
107
00:10:40,420 --> 00:10:45,600
Kristinn met these guys with undercover
Spanish police, so the current editor in
108
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,869
chief of WikiLeaks, and that's subject to
a lawsuit also. And there is also
109
00:10:50,869 --> 00:10:54,529
publications about that. But my
presentation is mainly about this first
110
00:10:54,529 --> 00:11:02,110
phase until April 2018 to avoid that
potential confusion. Also it's maybe worth
111
00:11:02,110 --> 00:11:07,199
to point out that all Julian's belongings,
like his computers, his notes and material
112
00:11:07,199 --> 00:11:12,369
and so on, has all been confiscated by the
Ecuadorians and directly given to the
113
00:11:12,369 --> 00:11:20,240
United States based on this agreement they
made in April 2018. So here you get a
114
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,450
rough overview of the embassy. It's not
the whole building, it's just the flat on
115
00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:29,390
the ground floor here on the left side,
going all the way down that little street
116
00:11:29,390 --> 00:11:35,319
on the left where actually Harrods, the
shopping mall, Harrods has their delivery
117
00:11:35,319 --> 00:11:41,329
acceptance situation. So this is like from
the side view. On the right side, you see
118
00:11:41,329 --> 00:11:47,329
the emergency exit of the embassy. Again,
side view and on the right, you see the
119
00:11:47,329 --> 00:11:52,619
courtyard. This is the entrance situation,
in the building there is more embassies.
120
00:11:52,619 --> 00:11:57,470
The Colombian embassy is right on the
right side, for example. There is one more
121
00:11:57,470 --> 00:12:02,100
which I don't recall which it is, however
you see here the entrance door of the
122
00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:08,119
embassy and here the entrance situation
from a different camera perspective. Here
123
00:12:08,119 --> 00:12:14,829
you would have an overview of the
installed cameras before the upgrades in
124
00:12:14,829 --> 00:12:22,490
December 2017. So most important is maybe
this "Sala de reunion" on the upper left
125
00:12:22,490 --> 00:12:27,010
side, not on the left corner, but once to
the right, that's the meeting room. And
126
00:12:27,010 --> 00:12:31,830
here you see that there was only until
then one camera. This is where most of the
127
00:12:31,830 --> 00:12:36,410
meetings with visitors, with lawyers and
so on took place. However, all the green
128
00:12:36,410 --> 00:12:41,400
areas do not only indicate you where video
surveillance took place, but all the
129
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:47,629
interior ones are exactly the areas Julian
was officially allowed to like use,
130
00:12:47,629 --> 00:12:52,769
including the kitchen on the right side on
the very right bottom "Habitacio n
131
00:12:52,769 --> 00:13:00,279
Huesped" that's his kind of small sleeping
room where he had his bed and things. And
132
00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:05,480
you would see the entrance situation
there. Outside they also had some cameras,
133
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:11,310
which they had one 8 megapixel 360 degree
monster, which actually made me think I
134
00:13:11,310 --> 00:13:20,560
want that as well. This is the more
harmless cameras on the sideways. But you
135
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:28,610
see here the idea of that camera. That's
pretty good. It even catched some events
136
00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:35,449
which I will indicate you later. So you get
the idea. Harrods is right next. And also
137
00:13:35,449 --> 00:13:42,940
right left is this entrance delivery
situation. "Operation Hotel" was the code
138
00:13:42,940 --> 00:13:48,860
name of the official security situation.
So they had their own terminology:
139
00:13:48,860 --> 00:13:53,579
"Director" was the ambassador, "Guest" was
Julian Assange, "Hotel" was the embassy.
140
00:13:53,579 --> 00:13:58,779
They, of course, had specific processes in
place, how regular, how visitors would be
141
00:13:58,779 --> 00:14:03,689
accepted. They sometimes in most of the
times needed to be signed off by the
142
00:14:03,689 --> 00:14:07,709
ambassador. So the ambassador had to allow
someone getting into the building in the
143
00:14:07,709 --> 00:14:12,629
first place and how that would be treated,
how their passports would be checked,
144
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:17,319
their electronics would be taken and so
on. There was an official representative
145
00:14:17,319 --> 00:14:25,610
of the Ecuadorian intelligence titled the
second secretary of the ambassador called
146
00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:31,069
Gabriela PAIZ. She was working in the
embassy and officially in charge of taking
147
00:14:31,069 --> 00:14:37,439
care of the company's contract and their
work. However, she got bribed, according
148
00:14:37,439 --> 00:14:43,660
to statements that are subject to this
ongoing lawsuit, with 20,000 USD in cash
149
00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:49,680
per month. She had to travel with her
husband to some funny places to collect
150
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,569
the money to not violate European
regulations with carrying cash and not
151
00:14:54,569 --> 00:15:00,089
declaring it and so on. So this gives you
roughly an idea and for that money she
152
00:15:00,089 --> 00:15:05,180
like not only accepted the modifications
and made it look like that modification of
153
00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:10,279
the protocol were on behalf of Ecuador and
not on behalf of the Americans, she also
154
00:15:10,279 --> 00:15:16,679
spied sometimes herself, as we have seen
her with a handbag, with a microphone and
155
00:15:16,679 --> 00:15:22,649
all that kind of funny behaviors. The
original Standard Operational Procedures
156
00:15:22,649 --> 00:15:29,670
in place, as I said, was defined helping
against intrusions. Visitors would arrive
157
00:15:29,670 --> 00:15:34,839
at the door, show their passport, then
would be searched with a metal detector
158
00:15:34,839 --> 00:15:38,589
and they would have to leave their
passport and all electronic devices at the
159
00:15:38,589 --> 00:15:44,070
security counter under the lobby. They
would sign in into some kind of a diary
160
00:15:44,070 --> 00:15:49,249
with name, passport number, date, time of
arrival, later sign out with time of their
161
00:15:49,249 --> 00:15:53,410
departure. The guards would bring the
visitors afterwards in the conference
162
00:15:53,410 --> 00:15:59,959
room, close the door and then copy the
passport while the visitors wait. And also
163
00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:04,629
there would be daily, monthly and special
incident reports written by the security
164
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:10,799
company delivered to the SENAIN, to the
Ecuadorian intelligence. So, from the
165
00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:16,329
visitors, what they would have is like who
invited them, for what, what date, what
166
00:16:16,329 --> 00:16:21,269
time frame, the copy of their passport.
Later then, that one had modifications,
167
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:25,779
that was that all of their pages with
entry stamps and visas would be
168
00:16:25,779 --> 00:16:31,889
photocopied as well. The exact time when
they really came, the description by the
169
00:16:31,889 --> 00:16:37,130
security guards how they appeared: maybe
if they came alone or with someone or it
170
00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:42,230
was anything. Video footage of the entry
situation, the meeting and the departure
171
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:48,949
situation. And as I said, extra incidents.
So we would have a lot of material of
172
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:57,259
passport copies. And this is an example of
the entrance situation from November 16.
173
00:16:57,259 --> 00:17:03,620
This is one of the lawyers arriving. And
you would see, he just rang the door, he
174
00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:15,760
came in, showed his passport, got briefly
checked. And funnily, in the upper left
175
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,950
corner, you see one of the guards doing
some upgrades on the cameras. Same time,
176
00:17:20,950 --> 00:17:26,750
but that's just how it was, there was
ongoing upgrades. So I don't have to show
177
00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:31,900
you the whole video, but here you get the
idea. He's being searched, his phone he
178
00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:36,940
needs to give them. The guard also briefly
checks his bag if there's maybe a
179
00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:41,510
recording device. So this was also to
prevent that visitors would bring any box
180
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:50,050
or recording devices into the meeting. So
it was meant to to do also like protect
181
00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:57,990
Julian on behalf of them. This is like a
meeting documentation. This is myself,
182
00:17:57,990 --> 00:18:01,480
actually, but this is a little boring and
also I'm not a fan of insinuating myself,
183
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,590
so I brought you the other one, which is
the only positive slide I have.
184
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:09,070
laughter
That's "missing in action" (M.I.A.), she's
185
00:18:09,070 --> 00:18:13,390
a rapper from - lives in the UK - Is
originally from Sri Lanka, but here you
186
00:18:13,390 --> 00:18:19,100
have a cat, so that's of course more
lovely than meeting boring data
187
00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:26,190
journalists, hackers, whatever. The third
party modifications for the access to the
188
00:18:26,190 --> 00:18:32,810
whole thing started mainly in begin 2017,
after also he switched to encrypted
189
00:18:32,810 --> 00:18:37,850
communications. Actually, the switching to
encrypted communication might, by the way,
190
00:18:37,850 --> 00:18:42,910
also have to do with a regime change, so
to say, in the United States. As the Trump
191
00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:47,550
administration was taking in power and
they were scared that different
192
00:18:47,550 --> 00:18:52,380
departments would interfere with each
other. So it became a little complicated
193
00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:58,160
in their own thread modeling / paranoia,
however you want to call it. They started
194
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,100
to pick up in the mid of the year the
original hard disks from the network video
195
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:07,240
recorder every two weeks and bring them
first to their office in Spain. Later,
196
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,840
Morales would then fly once a month,
roughly, to the United States. We have his
197
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:19,110
flight patterns and all the emails and so
on. And he would, yeah, deliver them, as
198
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:25,830
he explained to the staff, to his American
friends and sending new instructions. Then
199
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:32,350
in December, they made this new cameras
installation thing with sound and they
200
00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:39,660
also started to optimize things. For
example, there was issues with the audio
201
00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:43,320
filters and the cameras, as Julian had
used this white noise generator, which
202
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:49,210
will later be a little bit explained, they
needed filter configurations. Also, the
203
00:19:49,210 --> 00:19:55,460
Americans demanded to have direct access
on the streams coming into the office in
204
00:19:55,460 --> 00:20:01,331
Spain. So they installed it already in the
embassy in a way that there would be two
205
00:20:01,331 --> 00:20:07,360
different access layers, one not visible
to the Ecuadorians and one only for the
206
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:12,790
Americans. We have... this is the one
email I have there, I don't even speak
207
00:20:12,790 --> 00:20:18,570
Spanish, but where he clearly speaks about
the access to the video stream, one for
208
00:20:18,570 --> 00:20:23,930
the Ecuadorians, one for themself and one
for "party X". So the party X is how he
209
00:20:23,930 --> 00:20:32,590
called in the references the American
intelligence he worked for as well. And
210
00:20:32,590 --> 00:20:37,250
then they started to do other things that
they, for example, installed a door phone
211
00:20:37,250 --> 00:20:42,210
at the door, so you couldn't just ring the
bell and the guy would open the door, you
212
00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:47,720
had to actually speak your name. So, and
also the guard, which was... there was a
213
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:54,600
little guard desk in the lobby area of the
building, there would sit a guy. So he would
214
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,350
hear your name. They would have your voice
sample in the electronic transmission
215
00:20:59,350 --> 00:21:03,170
between this little door phone and the
counter more or less right behind the
216
00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:09,490
door. That was something they did. Then
the guards would start to just open the
217
00:21:09,490 --> 00:21:15,460
door to take your passport. Take it in.
Close the door again. You would wait
218
00:21:15,460 --> 00:21:20,150
outside and then, in that time, he copied
your whole passport with all pages and
219
00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:25,780
waited for further instructions, then
leave you in. They would... the guards
220
00:21:25,780 --> 00:21:32,400
would start to photograph or note all
IMEIs and IMSIs of mobile devices that
221
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,020
they took during your visit. And they
would also sometimes take whole bags of
222
00:21:37,020 --> 00:21:42,210
visitors and search them and photograph
all items. So I have like three examples
223
00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:48,050
of this: This is the most harmless maybe.
National security correspondent of The
224
00:21:48,050 --> 00:21:52,370
Washington Post, Ellen Nakashima's little
collection of devices. It's my own
225
00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:56,710
collection with some crypto phones and a
camera. And this is Italian journalist
226
00:21:56,710 --> 00:22:01,660
Stefania Maurizi who, for what reasons,
wherever she travels with all her USB
227
00:22:01,660 --> 00:22:04,260
stick collections and ...
laughter
228
00:22:04,260 --> 00:22:09,350
I redacted this a little bit, but you can
clearly see they took the SIM cards out to
229
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:16,260
photograph the IMSIs of the cards and so
on. So they wanted all that. Here you get
230
00:22:16,260 --> 00:22:29,170
an idea of the meeting documentations from
December 17th on with the new cameras,
231
00:22:29,170 --> 00:22:34,630
which had also audio. You get the idea
that the quality has drastically improved.
232
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:40,260
And here I would say if you would zoom in,
you could even read the notes of what they
233
00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:46,690
were writing. But well, we'll know that
later. However, that was not enough for
234
00:22:46,690 --> 00:22:52,730
them. They had issues, as I said, with the
white noise generator he installed for
235
00:22:52,730 --> 00:22:59,060
critical meetings. And they wanted
improved audio quality, as when you didn't
236
00:22:59,060 --> 00:23:03,800
speak loud enough, these cameras being
mounted under the ceiling were not good
237
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:10,620
enough. So they made this survey to
identify all kinds of options for
238
00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:17,510
additional hidden microphones and also
off-the-network equipment. So here you see
239
00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:21,960
actually where they ended up later. This
fire extinguisher played then the main
240
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:29,490
role. He has this PVC button thingy. They
put some of the plastics out and installed
241
00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:34,970
a bug in there. That was working
beautifully as it was also like from the
242
00:23:34,970 --> 00:23:39,450
room level next to the heads of the people
speaking in that part of the room. The
243
00:23:39,450 --> 00:23:42,700
only issue they had is that it was a
battery driven model and they had to
244
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:47,840
replace the battery and SD card, which
they did then every twelve hours, 26
245
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:53,940
minutes actually. That was the capacity of
that thing. But you get the idea. They
246
00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:58,070
looked into all of the things here on the
left side, by the way, you see the noise
247
00:23:58,070 --> 00:24:03,660
generator, but they looked at all the art
objects or the kitsch stuff to see what
248
00:24:03,660 --> 00:24:08,410
could be suitable before they identified
it. If I distinguish, it's just the best
249
00:24:08,410 --> 00:24:17,500
thing to do here. Here you would see that
Julian also installed a loudspeaker next
250
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:23,720
to the window. So there was not only one
loudspeaker above the table for the white
251
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:29,910
noise generator, but also directly at the
window. Here you see very briefly on the
252
00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:34,820
top the loudspeaker over the table, but
they're also opened during the survey, like
253
00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:40,220
all the electrical wiring things, the
light switches and so on, to see if there
254
00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:45,730
would be any suitable places. And they
also did that in the bathroom number two.
255
00:24:45,730 --> 00:24:51,780
Bathroom number two was originally the
woman's bathroom, which also had a shower.
256
00:24:51,780 --> 00:24:56,590
It was then later, more or less Julian's
personal bathroom, where he also made the
257
00:24:56,590 --> 00:25:01,760
most critical meetings with his lawyers
and and associates while running the
258
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:09,130
shower, as you would see it in every
better spy movie. However, what they did
259
00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:14,750
was, behind the rubbish that you would see
here, these boxes above the cabinet and
260
00:25:14,750 --> 00:25:20,670
slightly behind that cabinet, they had an
electrical wiring for the light. So they
261
00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:24,410
installed a bug there and that didn't
require any battery change or whatever
262
00:25:24,410 --> 00:25:30,640
that brought ongoing good audio quality.
They also went through the kitchen objects
263
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,770
and at this point they must have been
infected by the WikiLeaks house humor,
264
00:25:35,770 --> 00:25:46,320
however they would bark at that kind of
thing. The other aspect that Morales
265
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,810
discussed with the staff working in the
embassy once when he came back from his
266
00:25:49,810 --> 00:25:55,860
travels was that he asked them if they
could think about a way where they would
267
00:25:55,860 --> 00:26:02,110
accidentally leave one of the doors open
so that the Americans could come in and
268
00:26:02,110 --> 00:26:08,760
kidnap him. He also discussed if they
could put into some poison into the food
269
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:14,330
or how that... what options there would be
to poison Julian. However, the sting with
270
00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:18,540
the leaving the door accidentally opened,
next to the fact that that, of course,
271
00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:22,940
would be completely legal, like in an
embassy of another country to kidnap
272
00:26:22,940 --> 00:26:27,370
someone from, but well, this is the
Central Intelligence Agency or someone of
273
00:26:27,370 --> 00:26:32,980
the United States, what do they care about
laws? So what they did was provide
274
00:26:32,980 --> 00:26:38,520
documentation of all the doors, all the
locks. They went through the whole thing
275
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,770
to think about how such a kidnaping take
place. They even made a little video
276
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:49,150
showing, like, the way they could move
from this emergency exit or from a window
277
00:26:49,150 --> 00:26:58,820
and get in. So I have this little video
and you get here the idea of the way it
278
00:26:58,820 --> 00:27:05,319
could work. And yes, the reflections allow
us to identify the person who did it. So
279
00:27:05,319 --> 00:27:09,380
this is actually just one of three videos
we have about this. They also did this for
280
00:27:09,380 --> 00:27:14,890
the rooms in the back and so on, as they
also considered maybe going through in one
281
00:27:14,890 --> 00:27:23,200
of the windows, which would be more easy
for them to leave open a door. So this is
282
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:33,860
still part of that plan. I can name all
the doors, windows, identify some kind of
283
00:27:33,860 --> 00:27:41,940
rain tube or whatever, which they could
use to maybe come from above. Label all
284
00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:48,450
the windows, to get an idea. So what they
did in 2017 was then these two bugs, the
285
00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:54,010
hidden microphones and recording devices
in the fire extinguisher and in this...
286
00:27:54,010 --> 00:27:59,570
behind, above this storage cabinet and the
bathroom. And they did installation of
287
00:27:59,570 --> 00:28:05,320
high resolution cameras plus the
microphones. They, however, also discussed
288
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:11,020
that they wanted one more room. That's the
front room where Julian had... it's the
289
00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:16,870
former library, where he had a bit of a
room not for visitors, but to work with
290
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:24,020
himself and with his staff. That room was
a little bit hard for them to target. They
291
00:28:24,020 --> 00:28:27,180
would have to be going through the
ambassador's room, which was corresponding
292
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:34,170
to it. So they looked into stetographic -
excuse me - steto-whatever, steto-
293
00:28:34,170 --> 00:28:42,210
microphones to watch through the, no, to
listen through the wall. In order to do
294
00:28:42,210 --> 00:28:47,010
that, the Americans also asked them to
take like a spoon or a knife and bring
295
00:28:47,010 --> 00:28:51,910
them some scratch some parts of the wall
so that they could identify the material
296
00:28:51,910 --> 00:28:56,610
from which the wall was made in order to
identify which drilling machine they would
297
00:28:56,610 --> 00:29:01,490
have to use. They have extremely slow
drilling machines, which you put in a
298
00:29:01,490 --> 00:29:06,751
suitcase next to a wall. And it takes
eight hours for three centimeters, but it
299
00:29:06,751 --> 00:29:12,210
makes no noise. Okay. And that's the way
they would have used this kind of things.
300
00:29:12,210 --> 00:29:18,430
Here again, it's just the places that
hidden microphones. And here is some, as
301
00:29:18,430 --> 00:29:23,860
they documented their work, here is some
video documentation or photographic
302
00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:30,440
documentation of the installation of the
upgrades of the camera with audio. So this
303
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:37,840
is the upgraded diagram of the camera
installation. You would see all the
304
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:44,620
interior cameras are four megapixels now.
And the conference room has two. So in
305
00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:50,540
both corresponding sides to cover really
the whole room. So I don't switch back and
306
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:53,750
forth now between the other slides, but
you would have seen that there would still
307
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:58,340
have been small areas of the room which
were not covered. This was like full room
308
00:29:58,340 --> 00:30:05,930
coverage of wherever he would be allowed
to go to. So this noise generator however
309
00:30:05,930 --> 00:30:11,470
that Julian installed, made them quite
some headache, it worked pretty well.
310
00:30:11,470 --> 00:30:18,360
However, other people pointed out to me
also, and it is true, if you sit in a room
311
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,930
with this white noise generator, you get
headache. It's not nice. I mean, yes, it
312
00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:30,320
works and it prevents them bugging it, but
it's also pretty tough to do that for one,
313
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:37,530
two hours. However, the American friends
had issues with it and they already had
314
00:30:37,530 --> 00:30:46,800
started to bug the embassy from the
outside with laser reflecting microphones,
315
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:52,700
meaning the vibrations on the glass or the
windows would be used. But as his white
316
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:56,840
noise generator had a loudspeaker directed
to the window, they needed to deal with
317
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,260
that. And they instructed to install
special stickers which will be - there
318
00:31:01,260 --> 00:31:06,030
will be actually in the next days a police
situation, the Ecuadorians have allowed to
319
00:31:06,030 --> 00:31:09,690
take one of these stickers. They have a
kind of foam on the one side and a
320
00:31:09,690 --> 00:31:17,640
reflecting blank side that allowed them to
do it anyhow. So you would have this thing
321
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,010
here and here. Unfortunately, I do not
have, at this point, a very good picture
322
00:31:22,010 --> 00:31:27,550
of this sticker itself. But you would see
here their documentation that they
323
00:31:27,550 --> 00:31:31,240
installed in every window, not only that
of the conference room, one of these
324
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:37,400
stickers that allowed them to deal with a
laser on site. And actually their
325
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,880
outside camera, the 8 megapixel monster I
mentioned earlier, catched once the
326
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:47,680
Americans on the other side of the street
when their curtain was a little bit to the
327
00:31:47,680 --> 00:32:01,760
side here with their laser machine. So you
get the idea, that is not a camera. There
328
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,250
is, of course, other things that happened
as well. This slide is more actually for
329
00:32:06,250 --> 00:32:11,970
your entertainment after a rather
depressive technical text. They also did
330
00:32:11,970 --> 00:32:23,460
sometimes normal things. It was not only
spying on behalf of the Americans. But
331
00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:30,380
most important and most impressive is
actually what happened on end of 2017. End
332
00:32:30,380 --> 00:32:36,170
of 2017 the government of Ecuador - the
new government - had already been elected,
333
00:32:36,170 --> 00:32:41,850
but the new government was not in office.
So as one of the last steps of the old
334
00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:47,000
government to solve his situation, they
gave him, they gave Julian Ecuadorian
335
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,990
citizenship. They made him a diplomat. And
they had pre-agreed with some countries,
336
00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:59,950
which he could choose from, to actually
appoint him as a diplomat to one of their
337
00:32:59,950 --> 00:33:07,150
other embassies where he would not have
that hostile environment surrounding it.
338
00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:12,620
On the 21st of December he met in the
embassy the head of the Ecuadorian
339
00:33:12,620 --> 00:33:18,100
intelligence Romy Vallejo. I have one
picture from that meeting. The meeting, of
340
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:25,350
course, was completely intercepted. The
Americans were on high alert and actually,
341
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:31,890
after he used a white noise generator and
located himself with a guy slightly away
342
00:33:31,890 --> 00:33:39,210
from the fire extinguisher, by knowing or
not knowing about it, the guards even were
343
00:33:39,210 --> 00:33:47,309
asked to like stand in front of the door
and listen through the door and stuff. The
344
00:33:47,309 --> 00:33:51,570
same night, actually, so this was, as you
could see at the time, it's like 3, 4
345
00:33:51,570 --> 00:33:55,790
o'clock at night, it went on for some
time. The next day, they issued the
346
00:33:55,790 --> 00:34:01,100
international arrest warrant against
Julian. They inform the British and the
347
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:05,930
British informed the Ecuadorians that they
would not accept the appointing of Julian
348
00:34:05,930 --> 00:34:12,619
as a diplomat. And so the whole plan was
dismissed and massive police came, like
349
00:34:12,619 --> 00:34:18,520
standing in front of, like, on this little
side street right from it. So this is
350
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,601
where the term actionable intelligence has
like a direct meaning that you can
351
00:34:22,601 --> 00:34:30,190
actually talk to your coffee cup and next
moment shit happes, so to illustrate that.
352
00:34:30,190 --> 00:34:37,040
At the end, I brought you some resource
links. This is, as I said, ongoing cases.
353
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,000
There will be more material and it will
probably make us a little bit of a case
354
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,869
study out of it published at bug planet.
If you are interested or willing to
355
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:52,740
support his legal and other situations at
Wau Holland Foundation, which I am a board
356
00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:57,070
member, and that's also what brought me to
all these meetings, we do collect money
357
00:34:57,070 --> 00:35:04,740
for Julian's defense and also for ongoing
aspects of WikiLeaks publications. Okay.
358
00:35:04,740 --> 00:35:11,130
That's for me, from my side, for now. We
have a bit of time left for questions and
359
00:35:11,130 --> 00:35:14,780
answers. If I just knew how much, like 20
minutes or so?
360
00:35:14,780 --> 00:35:19,110
Herald: We have about 20 minutes. We will
be taking questions and we have three
361
00:35:19,110 --> 00:35:24,080
microphones in the room. So please line up
behind them and we take questions from the
362
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,640
Internet as well. The signal angel is
(...).
363
00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:37,250
Andy: The sticker. Oh, yes, sorry, I
forgot to mention that the stickers on the
364
00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:46,040
windows were saying, like, this building
is under CCTV, under camera surveillance.
365
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,190
And Morales had told his people that, oh,
the British law has changed and they would
366
00:35:50,190 --> 00:35:55,791
require to have the stickers now, which
is, of course, completely ridiculous. Also
367
00:35:55,791 --> 00:36:01,210
watching the cover frame of their outside
cameras, like there would have to actually
368
00:36:01,210 --> 00:36:05,010
go all over the place there and tell them,
oh, by the way, your're under
369
00:36:05,010 --> 00:36:09,204
surveillance. So, yeah, that was indeed
remarkable. Awesome.
370
00:36:10,593 --> 00:36:15,380
Herald: Thank you. Let's give a round of
applause.
371
00:36:15,380 --> 00:36:23,672
applause
372
00:36:24,143 --> 00:36:25,510
Herald: Thank you again for the very
373
00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:32,800
insightful talk. We are taking questions,
so stand behind the microphones. Please go
374
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,210
ahead. We have questions from the
internet.
375
00:36:37,210 --> 00:36:41,620
Andy: At this case I would not only be
open to questions, but also to ideas, how
376
00:36:41,620 --> 00:36:45,270
to get him out of Belmarsh Prison, but
just to have it said.
377
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:50,370
Herald: OK, you can have that, you know.
We're gonna take a question from the
378
00:36:50,370 --> 00:36:52,440
Internet.
Signal Angel: Yeah, just one brief
379
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:59,160
question from the Internet: What is that
laser with sticker technology. And
380
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,600
furthermore, what's its purpose? So why
are they needed?
381
00:37:03,140 --> 00:37:07,369
Andy: Okay. Maybe I wasn't making it clear
enough. The stickers would have a
382
00:37:07,369 --> 00:37:14,400
reflecting surface to the outside, but the
way they're glued to the window would
383
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:23,270
somehow detach them from the inside noise.
I don't know how it works at this point in
384
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:27,570
that detail. We will have one of these
stickers in the next weeks and we'll be
385
00:37:27,570 --> 00:37:32,750
able to study it. But it somehow seemed to
help the Americans with their laser
386
00:37:32,750 --> 00:37:40,660
technology to take the audio from the
vibration of the voice generated or
387
00:37:40,660 --> 00:37:43,860
transported through the glass out the
window.
388
00:37:44,910 --> 00:37:50,700
Herald: Thank you. It appears we have no
more questions or everyone's too scared to
389
00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:54,890
ask one. We are distributing face masks if
that's the case.
390
00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:59,130
Andy: Maybe I want to...
Herald: There is there someone. Hi. You're
391
00:37:59,130 --> 00:38:03,990
brave. Go ahead.
Q: Can you hear me? Hello?
392
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:07,860
A: Yes
Q: OK. Without revealing your source, how
393
00:38:07,860 --> 00:38:12,280
did you even get all this information? So
the video surveillance cameras and all
394
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,930
these details?
A: Well, subject to lawyers advice, my
395
00:38:16,930 --> 00:38:20,550
answer is that I'm an investigative
journalist and I don't talk about my
396
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:27,390
methods and sources, but I leave it up to
your fantasy as I said this material is
397
00:38:27,390 --> 00:38:32,100
subject to an ongoing lawsuit. So it is
also in the hands of the Spanish
398
00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:38,980
prosecutor. And maybe just very little
comment because I discuss this also with
399
00:38:38,980 --> 00:38:45,990
Julian and others. I would have to say it.
Let's say before I went all too deep into
400
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:53,150
this and actually looked at this material
for hours and hours and days, I would, of
401
00:38:53,150 --> 00:38:59,680
course, also have called Julian and myself
paranoid people. But after I did this, I
402
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,420
would call it, well, we had a good
situational awareness, because that's the
403
00:39:03,420 --> 00:39:08,590
more precise terminology where we are
into.
404
00:39:08,590 --> 00:39:18,060
applause
Herald: Next question, same microphone.
405
00:39:18,060 --> 00:39:23,682
Q: In the beginning, you said there are
multiple embassies inside the building. My
406
00:39:23,682 --> 00:39:28,810
question is: The hallway, is it actually
part of Great Britain or is it some
407
00:39:28,810 --> 00:39:34,180
neutral area?
A: Well, no, it's part of Great Britain.
408
00:39:34,180 --> 00:39:42,640
So the hallway was just shared among the
building tenants, but all of the
409
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,750
apartments so to say in that building are
private property. So it was like a shared
410
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:52,430
thing of the building. There's maybe a
better English term, which I don't know.
411
00:39:52,430 --> 00:39:58,490
But the diplomatic police, which is the
maybe better educated part of the British
412
00:39:58,490 --> 00:40:08,110
hit and run job police guys would not be
allowed normally to step in the embassy.
413
00:40:08,110 --> 00:40:13,544
But in the hallway, they sometimes were in
the hallway right in front of the door. So
414
00:40:13,544 --> 00:40:18,250
they would also listen to the dialog when
you were talking to the guard about coming
415
00:40:18,250 --> 00:40:24,500
in or whatever. And of course, there was
in the first months of his stay or even
416
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:28,720
years, there was this ongoing police
situation. It was actually the police had
417
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:34,468
sometimes, in winter, they must have got a
bit cold and installed a van there, saying
418
00:40:34,468 --> 00:40:40,200
"police conference", which was probably
suitable for 12 people, had fancy antennas
419
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,690
and cameras all over it. So they had this
ongoing police conference right in front
420
00:40:44,690 --> 00:40:47,587
of the building.
laughter
421
00:40:47,587 --> 00:40:51,010
Herald: Thank you. We're going to take a
question from the Internet next.
422
00:40:51,010 --> 00:40:57,250
Signal Angel: All right. Have you been
approached by the CIA or the MI5 or met
423
00:40:57,250 --> 00:41:01,740
the police and been asked to cease and
desist from talking about their operation
424
00:41:01,740 --> 00:41:05,120
against Julian Assange and the embassy
itself?
425
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:10,270
A: Not in a direct way that they talk to
me, but I've been subject to what I would
426
00:41:10,270 --> 00:41:15,211
call "intimidation surveillance". So there
is covert surveillance, that's when they
427
00:41:15,211 --> 00:41:20,519
are hiding their stuff and you see maybe a
camera at a border point or whatever.
428
00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:24,869
Intimidation starts for me when I'm, for
example, coming in the early morning hours
429
00:41:24,869 --> 00:41:31,276
to airport London-Heathrow, come to the
immigration counter, the guy takes my
430
00:41:31,276 --> 00:41:35,070
passport, sees something on the screen,
starts to ask me actually the same
431
00:41:35,070 --> 00:41:40,090
question three times, but he doesn't even
listen to my answers. Like, where are you
432
00:41:40,090 --> 00:41:44,900
going? What's your occupation? He's asking
it again and I'm like, am I talking to a
433
00:41:44,900 --> 00:41:49,000
moron or what's going wrong here? But at
some point I identified as it happened
434
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,920
again and again and again that after some
minutes you got this go material, this go
435
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,730
blink on his screen. And so the guys
outside were standing ready to follow me
436
00:41:58,730 --> 00:42:03,901
the whole fucking day. And that's what I
would call intimidation surveillance. It's
437
00:42:03,901 --> 00:42:11,300
not meant to like watch me. It's mainly
meant to let you know that you are not
438
00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:16,090
liked here, that we are have you on our
eyes, that we know you are a friend of
439
00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:21,180
Julian and so on. So, yeah, that was not
the pleasant part of my life.
440
00:42:21,180 --> 00:42:28,020
Herald: Thank you. Microphone one.
Q: Yeah. First. Thank you. Nice talk, very
441
00:42:28,020 --> 00:42:33,590
dystopian. I'm just following up on what
you just said. I mean, chances are high
442
00:42:33,590 --> 00:42:38,050
that you are under surveillance as well.
What are the personal countermeasures
443
00:42:38,050 --> 00:42:40,760
you've taken? Did you check your fire
extinguisher?
444
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:47,780
A: Yeah, actually, I could and should
probably at some point in the next month
445
00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:55,119
hold a separate talk about that. I found a
physical bug in one of my phones. I have
446
00:42:55,119 --> 00:43:00,530
all kinds of funny incidents. I was able
to actually create traffic jams in one way
447
00:43:00,530 --> 00:43:06,230
streets in European cities at three
o'clock in the night and that's quite an
448
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:12,940
interesting experience.
laughter applause
449
00:43:12,940 --> 00:43:18,190
A: And at some point, you maybe get used
to it. You think, well, ok, that's how it
450
00:43:18,190 --> 00:43:28,570
is. But of course, it is a bit of a loss
of quality of life. And also, you are
451
00:43:28,570 --> 00:43:34,430
becoming a little bit different in your
behavior towards other people. But as I
452
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:39,940
said, unfortunately it's situational
awareness, so you can't be careful enough
453
00:43:39,940 --> 00:43:46,560
in such a situation. Basically, if you
look at it from a balance of budget or
454
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:54,859
balance of measures or options point of
view, they have an endless astronomy
455
00:43:54,859 --> 00:44:05,920
military budget. We have encrypted e-mail,
OTR and may be crypto phones. So basically
456
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,780
my assumption has become that they know
what I'm doing and I'm not doing anything
457
00:44:10,780 --> 00:44:16,270
illegal anyhow. But the whole case against
Julian and after you have studied all this
458
00:44:16,270 --> 00:44:20,700
material, which includes the pictures of
the bathroom, right, there was an audio
459
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:26,050
bug also in the bathroom area and so on
with these cameras. And I think for me,
460
00:44:26,050 --> 00:44:31,850
it's pretty clear this is not about him
having violated any laws. This has nothing
461
00:44:31,850 --> 00:44:37,817
to do with law enforcement. This is a
political case. This is intimidation. And
462
00:44:37,817 --> 00:44:41,900
it is that they want to set that
precedent, that they want to actually hang
463
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:45,730
him on the highest tree. And let us all
aware: Don't try to connect the Internet
464
00:44:45,730 --> 00:44:51,640
with the secrets as we don't like that.
But actually, on the positive side,
465
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:58,840
speaking as I said, he has shown with
WikiLeaks that it is possible the Internet
466
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:07,290
is quite suitable to deal and to provide
more aspects of information and knowledge
467
00:45:07,290 --> 00:45:14,782
on government secrets actings to all of
us. So, yes, it comes at a price.
468
00:45:14,782 --> 00:45:17,700
Herald: Okay. This is getting more
dystopian by the minute.
469
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:20,499
Andy: Sorry for that.
Herald: Let's see if we can go even
470
00:45:20,499 --> 00:45:23,700
scarier. Microphone two.
Andy: I'm sure there will be other talks
471
00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:28,547
about good news.
Herald: Oh, no. No, there won't.
472
00:45:30,777 --> 00:45:35,010
Q: Thank you so much for the presentation.
The details like were really important.
473
00:45:35,010 --> 00:45:39,140
Like to see, you know, have a concrete
image of what surveillance looks like in
474
00:45:39,140 --> 00:45:44,390
the embassy. And as you mentioned, all
what happened was in complicity with the
475
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:49,550
Ecuadorian embassy, even if also you said
that it's not really related to law
476
00:45:49,550 --> 00:45:55,010
enforcement, I'm really curious from legal
perspective, if there is any way and if
477
00:45:55,010 --> 00:46:00,920
there are ongoing cases, if there is any
way they could get away with it. Are there
478
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:06,190
any things that they can do or defend or
argument just to make this okay? I don't
479
00:46:06,190 --> 00:46:10,180
know, national security reasons, whatever
not considered, you know, is a violation.
480
00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:16,220
A: OK. So what I can say is that the
Spanish lawyers of Julian are currently
481
00:46:16,220 --> 00:46:22,800
with high pressure also working together
with the state prosecutor and examine the
482
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:29,895
evidence. So the owner of the company was
briefly arrested. He's out on bail. His
483
00:46:29,895 --> 00:46:36,580
company compound was searched. Computers,
USBs, hard disks were seized and so on.
484
00:46:36,580 --> 00:46:41,390
And that's all stuff that's being worked
on right now, because it might be very
485
00:46:41,390 --> 00:46:47,570
important for Julian's main extradition
case, as it clearly demonstrates that the
486
00:46:47,570 --> 00:46:54,710
United States or some entities of the
United States are being located in the
487
00:46:54,710 --> 00:47:01,780
United States, have violated his ability
to prepare legal defense in a fair way.
488
00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:08,550
And that might be a main argument.
However, when - and I've been talking a
489
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:13,780
lot with this lawyers - like they say
things like in any normal case, this would
490
00:47:13,780 --> 00:47:19,260
be the end. But this is Julian Assange and
the U.K. government on behalf of the
491
00:47:19,260 --> 00:47:24,320
American government, so we'll see what
happens. No one expects a fair trial here.
492
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:29,410
And I mean, also the fact that he's kept
in solitary confinement for 22 hours a day
493
00:47:29,410 --> 00:47:33,450
in a high security prison that's normally
for terrorists, organized crime and
494
00:47:33,450 --> 00:47:40,490
murderers, while being none of that, shows
clearly that this is like not a normal
495
00:47:40,490 --> 00:47:46,050
case here. This has nothing to do with
normal justice. The United Kingdom ignores
496
00:47:46,050 --> 00:47:52,340
the United Nations finding on torture
about his psychological state, as he has
497
00:47:52,340 --> 00:47:56,010
been, of course, through a totally
different journey. For him, it was not
498
00:47:56,010 --> 00:48:01,980
only knowing about this surveillance, it
was also the unknown of: can I ever expect
499
00:48:01,980 --> 00:48:06,940
a fair trial, will they want to kill me or
will it just be orange based jumps in
500
00:48:06,940 --> 00:48:15,480
Gitmo or whatever? So he, of course, has
issues through that, but the UK ignores
501
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:21,260
the United Nations, so in theory we should
all be outraged completely and stand in
502
00:48:21,260 --> 00:48:28,460
front of these British embassies for the
moment, to do, to demand that his prison
503
00:48:28,460 --> 00:48:35,240
conditions are being humanized. As totally
independent from the fact, if the court
504
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:40,109
will find him guilty or if the extradition
bill plays, the fear is that he is kind of
505
00:48:40,109 --> 00:48:46,120
being killed right now as we speak.
Herald: Thank you. Microphone two.
506
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,840
Q: Hi. Do you know if that Spanish company
is still responsible for the security
507
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,690
installation at the Ecuadorian embassy in
London?
508
00:48:54,690 --> 00:49:01,720
A: No. Maybe I missed that slide. They
have been brought out of their... the
509
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:07,570
contract has been canceled in April of
2018 and this other company, Promsecurity,
510
00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:12,000
took over.
Herald: Thank you. One more question...
511
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,080
A: What I can say is that some of the -
that's maybe an important aspect - as some
512
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:22,390
of the employees of UC Global, which have
been working in the embassy and had their
513
00:49:22,390 --> 00:49:28,740
eight hour shifts there, have become
protected witnesses of the Spanish justice
514
00:49:28,740 --> 00:49:35,230
to testify against Morales. They were not
happy with what they were doing. They
515
00:49:35,230 --> 00:49:39,450
understood at some point that this was on
behalf of American intelligence, violating
516
00:49:39,450 --> 00:49:43,590
the official contract they had been
working under. So there was some
517
00:49:43,590 --> 00:49:51,330
resistance. There is the option that some
of this resistance also had to do, that
518
00:49:51,330 --> 00:49:54,580
the owner of the company got a lot of
money every month for this, but did not
519
00:49:54,580 --> 00:50:01,590
share that money. That might have played
into it. But some of these guys also were
520
00:50:01,590 --> 00:50:06,260
not happy as they were like sitting in the
same rooms with Julian the whole day and
521
00:50:06,260 --> 00:50:10,970
talked with him, of course, also.
Herald: Thank you. One more question from
522
00:50:10,970 --> 00:50:17,060
the Internet. Hi, Internet people.
Signal Angel: How do you explain the huge
523
00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:22,210
effort besides the intimidation you
mentioned towards you that motivates the
524
00:50:22,210 --> 00:50:28,600
USA to take these dubious and very
ambitious steps. So maybe just to ask you
525
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:33,540
one more question to you, sir: How many
intelligence officers do you think then
526
00:50:33,540 --> 00:50:35,510
are in this room right now?
527
00:50:35,909 --> 00:50:38,249
laughter
528
00:50:38,621 --> 00:50:41,770
A: Okay. So the first question was, I'm
529
00:50:41,770 --> 00:50:49,650
not sure I fully got it: Why they are
doing this? Well, I mean, I could also
530
00:50:49,650 --> 00:50:53,430
have introduced me the other way. I could
have said, I don't need to introduce
531
00:50:53,430 --> 00:51:02,170
myself. Go to the Mueller Report, see page
47. I was suspected due to my multiple
532
00:51:02,170 --> 00:51:07,060
visits and actually, look, I brought
Julian food, I brought him clothing, I
533
00:51:07,060 --> 00:51:13,400
brought him computers, USB sticks in like
packages, all kinds of things. I will
534
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,490
never be able to prove what I not brought
him due to the amounts of my visits there.
535
00:51:18,490 --> 00:51:23,140
So the Washington Post came at some point
and said that they had multiple
536
00:51:23,140 --> 00:51:27,760
intelligence sources from somewhere that I
was the person who brought Julian the DNC
537
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,230
emails on a USB stick and I said like,
wow, what a bullshit. But as I said, I
538
00:51:32,230 --> 00:51:37,040
will never be able to prove that I wasn't
doing that. My taking off it is as I am in
539
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,360
a small foundation called Wau Holland
Foundation, one of the five board members,
540
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:45,810
and actually I'm kind of working in that
project area for freedom of information
541
00:51:45,810 --> 00:51:50,570
that I was to contact prison to weekly
send to Julian for many years. So they
542
00:51:50,570 --> 00:51:54,200
maybe just to follow the money and want to
kill it. I mean, would not be a surprise
543
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,789
that they want to kill like WikiLeaks else
as a publication agency or not. Julian
544
00:51:58,789 --> 00:52:03,750
Assange only as a human being. So here you
go. One theory. There's, of course, many
545
00:52:03,750 --> 00:52:07,510
others, but I guess they're pretty
generous. And the budget they have to deal
546
00:52:07,510 --> 00:52:11,590
with is pretty big. So, and of course, I'm
not the only one that's being followed and
547
00:52:11,590 --> 00:52:15,720
so on. The other question was...?
Herald: How many intelligence officers
548
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:18,780
that we have here in this room?
drumming on panel
549
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:22,550
laughter
550
00:52:22,550 --> 00:52:28,889
A: Out there on the stream, I see 23
different. In the room, five to eight.
551
00:52:29,559 --> 00:52:32,412
Herald: I think that guy
walks a bit sketchy.
552
00:52:32,412 --> 00:52:33,470
laughter
553
00:52:33,470 --> 00:52:36,470
Herald: He's wearing a headset.
He's been quiet the entire time.
554
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:42,190
applause
555
00:52:42,190 --> 00:52:44,007
A: What can I say? I mean, openness
556
00:52:44,007 --> 00:52:53,010
protects from from being blackmailed.
Maybe that was Wau's idea about it. But of
557
00:52:53,010 --> 00:52:57,920
course, not all aspects of WikiLeaks can
be subject to full disclosure as there's
558
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,270
sources to protect, there's people who
have lives to protect, who help with all
559
00:53:02,270 --> 00:53:08,109
kinds of things. There's journalists who
sometimes bring more things from funny
560
00:53:08,109 --> 00:53:12,450
sources, so there's all kinds of things
that as a media project you would want to
561
00:53:12,450 --> 00:53:16,230
protect normally. Under the circumstances,
however, it's a bit tough.
562
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:21,307
Herald: OK. Thank you. There is a person
next to microphone one and I don't
563
00:53:21,307 --> 00:53:24,000
understand if you actually have a
question, are you there to (...)
564
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,560
A: An answer maybe?
Herald: You have a question?
565
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,384
Q: Yes
Herald: Are you CIA?
566
00:53:29,384 --> 00:53:31,807
Q: I hope not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
laughter
567
00:53:31,807 --> 00:53:34,308
Herald: OK, we're not interested.
Microphone two
568
00:53:34,308 --> 00:53:37,566
laughter
569
00:53:37,566 --> 00:53:39,290
A: It's a little too brutal, maybe?
570
00:53:39,290 --> 00:53:43,950
Q: OK. Thank you. Are there actually any
diplomatic consequences out of this case?
571
00:53:43,950 --> 00:53:49,490
Because like the CIA, with the help of the
British government, kind of violated the
572
00:53:49,490 --> 00:53:55,170
embassy of Ecuador, so, like, installing
cameras is not exactly ok for my
573
00:53:55,170 --> 00:53:58,390
understanding and for embassies?
574
00:53:59,890 --> 00:54:04,859
A: Well, I would think that in any normal
575
00:54:04,859 --> 00:54:09,940
European country, there would also be
investigation, like, official
576
00:54:09,940 --> 00:54:13,420
investigation, maybe even by other
embassies in the building and so on after
577
00:54:13,420 --> 00:54:18,700
learning these things. The U.K. seems to
have just decided not only to get out of
578
00:54:18,700 --> 00:54:22,780
European Union, but also to become more of
a colony of the United States, if they
579
00:54:22,780 --> 00:54:28,770
have not been that all the time. So I
don't have the impression also with the
580
00:54:28,770 --> 00:54:32,530
fact that the current Ecuadorian
government is very pro US, they have
581
00:54:32,530 --> 00:54:40,440
allowed military installations from the
United States in Ecuador. They have made
582
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:48,230
this agreement to help them in the investigation.
So not that I'm aware of. However, this
583
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:53,760
Spanish investigation is probably the
strongest thing going on. There have been
584
00:54:53,760 --> 00:55:02,500
contradicting statements about involvement
of Secret Service people, CIA people,
585
00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:10,170
might be a mixture of both of them. But
this is ongoing. And if you ... these
586
00:55:10,170 --> 00:55:15,359
links here is my own little wiki called
osint.info where I'm collecting the
587
00:55:15,359 --> 00:55:19,350
regular updates coming in from the
investigation through the Spanish news and
588
00:55:19,350 --> 00:55:24,339
so on. So you will learn more about the
case in the next weeks. It's all ongoing.
589
00:55:24,339 --> 00:55:28,200
Herald: Thank you. OK, the guy who's
supposedly not CIA, go!
590
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:33,220
Q: So I want to make clear that I never
received any direct payments from the CIA.
591
00:55:33,220 --> 00:55:35,621
laughter
Q: My question is...
592
00:55:35,621 --> 00:55:40,224
A: No, but that's... that's, by the way,
the nature of them. So I would be very
593
00:55:40,224 --> 00:55:41,822
surprised...
more laughter
594
00:55:41,822 --> 00:55:44,860
applause
A: I would be very surprised that we find
595
00:55:44,860 --> 00:55:50,420
evidence, because one of the core working
principle of the intelligence is of course
596
00:55:50,420 --> 00:55:56,250
deniability. So if you have a situation
like this where you see funny money is
597
00:55:56,250 --> 00:56:01,540
coming in and finding instructions come
in, but you cannot prove who it was,
598
00:56:01,540 --> 00:56:05,960
that's exactly the confirmation and, so to
say, the "proof", because you can't prove
599
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:14,040
it. That deniability is core of their like
way of acting. And I mean, whom, by the
600
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,990
way, am I telling this. It's not only
them. OK.
601
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:21,930
Herald: I always thought you kind of
create an invoice for covert spy
602
00:56:21,930 --> 00:56:24,261
activity...
A: Yes, they did at some point, but the
603
00:56:24,261 --> 00:56:28,830
guy was greedy. He traveled then, what we
know is he traveled to Gibraltar and there
604
00:56:28,830 --> 00:56:33,820
might be hidden bank accounts there. And
also the way the cash was transferred
605
00:56:33,820 --> 00:56:40,050
changed from time to time. So, there
was... not all of it seems to have been
606
00:56:40,050 --> 00:56:45,680
going directly through Sheldon Adelson,
but Sheldon Adelson is - actually I missed
607
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:51,030
him to put him out on a link - he's a
person also worth checking out, is a very
608
00:56:51,030 --> 00:56:56,430
weird international intelligence
operative, I would call him . And he can
609
00:56:56,430 --> 00:57:00,839
sue me for that, but he's 92 years old, so
he's a cover anyhow just for other people
610
00:57:00,839 --> 00:57:06,490
active. He runs casinos in Las Vegas, in
Macao and other places. He has been
611
00:57:06,490 --> 00:57:11,869
running spy operations on Chinese
officials in Macao, he has been accused,
612
00:57:11,869 --> 00:57:17,890
look Wikipedia, on money laundering from
forged USD notes printed in Iran, was not
613
00:57:17,890 --> 00:57:24,380
Korean paper or the other way around being
brought in by Israeli citizen in a funny
614
00:57:24,380 --> 00:57:29,360
operation. So he's a truly interesting
person in this context also.
615
00:57:29,670 --> 00:57:36,161
Herald: So I thought you just send it to
invoices@cia.gov and then get it. OK.
616
00:57:36,161 --> 00:57:38,220
A: Try it
laughter
617
00:57:38,220 --> 00:57:42,309
Herald: Yeah.
A: Try it, and put the...
618
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:44,710
laughter
619
00:57:46,250 --> 00:57:48,160
A: No, actually, I would also have a lot
620
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,080
of funny fantasy about this, if this
wouldn't be about a friend of mine who's
621
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:57,109
in serious shit. So, if you could please
also apply your fantasy of how we could
622
00:57:57,109 --> 00:58:01,700
get out him there, not only into the
question of how we deal with the CIA, I
623
00:58:01,700 --> 00:58:06,660
would be very thankful to you guys.
Herald: Thank you. Definitely not try any
624
00:58:06,660 --> 00:58:09,790
of that at home. Question from the
Internet, please.
625
00:58:09,790 --> 00:58:11,899
laughter
626
00:58:12,220 --> 00:58:14,180
Signal Angel: The Internet asks, what will
627
00:58:14,180 --> 00:58:19,480
happen to WikiLeaks as an organization in
case Assange gets a life sentence? And,
628
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,440
since I'm not sure this is the last
question from the Internet, the Internet
629
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:27,378
wants to say that it really appreciates
your willingness to do the talk again. So,
630
00:58:27,378 --> 00:58:37,510
thank you for your courage.
applause
631
00:58:38,230 --> 00:58:42,980
A: I'm not speaking for WikiLeaks, but I
am in contact with Kristinn Hrafnsson - he
632
00:58:42,980 --> 00:58:47,200
has this Icelandic name that's hard to
pronounce - who is the current editor in
633
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:51,760
chief and I mean, WikiLeaks is publishing
things ongoing. The last publication was
634
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:57,800
actually two days ago on the 27th or
something, so they, of course, decided to
635
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:03,510
continue the work. Also, because they
think that's the only thing they can do to
636
00:59:03,510 --> 00:59:11,080
demonstrate also that, like, this is a
publishing organization and they have been
637
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:17,200
working with media partners and so on. So
in Iceland, where Kristinn is officially
638
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:22,470
located, the surrounding environments,
anyhow, are a lot more supportive, as the
639
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:25,900
other day, some years ago, when this
Kaupthing Bank issue and they had a local
640
00:59:25,900 --> 00:59:30,690
bank corruption issue and that was a
national scandal. It's a small country of
641
00:59:30,690 --> 00:59:34,390
300,000 people, that's a totally different
environment and Kristinn is pretty
642
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:40,109
confident that they leave him in peace
there and appreciate the work. So that's
643
00:59:40,109 --> 00:59:46,850
not the UK, but for the UK itself, well, I
cannot speak and I can also not speak for
644
00:59:46,850 --> 00:59:52,770
WikiLeaks. If anyone on the Internet has
good ideas on what to do, as I said, this
645
00:59:52,770 --> 00:59:59,119
is maybe the phase where we really need to
crowdsource our ideas on how to get Julian
646
00:59:59,119 --> 01:00:03,937
out of this shit. Thank you.
Herald: Thank you
647
01:00:03,937 --> 01:00:09,147
applause
648
01:00:09,147 --> 01:00:14,802
Herald: Do we take a question from the guy
who was definitely not CIA? OK go.
649
01:00:15,622 --> 01:00:18,160
Q: So we have suspected for a long time
650
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:23,170
that there was a secret request for
extradition for Julian and that he was
651
01:00:23,170 --> 01:00:28,119
under surveillance, but there was no proof
until now. So the general public and most
652
01:00:28,119 --> 01:00:32,900
journalists dismissed this as conspiracy
theories. Now that it's out, everyone
653
01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:37,080
agrees, ok, that this was obvious, so...
A: This was a situational awareness, yes.
654
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:42,640
Q: Yeah. So how can we help the next
Julian, which we are not sure yet that
655
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:49,150
he's definitely under surveillance, to
raise awareness of such a situation?
656
01:00:49,150 --> 01:00:58,780
A: Well, I mean, in theory, as far as I
know, the publishing activities of
657
01:00:58,780 --> 01:01:06,380
WikiLeaks are not illegal, have not been
illegal, at least, yes, there is ongoing
658
01:01:06,380 --> 01:01:11,140
investigations, but these ongoing
investigations are around the question of
659
01:01:11,140 --> 01:01:17,470
how sources were convinced to be a source.
So there's this allegation that, for
660
01:01:17,470 --> 01:01:22,580
example, Chelsea Manning was instructed to
do something in order to submit the stuff,
661
01:01:22,580 --> 01:01:27,940
in order to publish it later. The
publishing itself might have not been
662
01:01:27,940 --> 01:01:34,050
illegal. Chelsea Manning herself is, as
you might know, also in prison again for
663
01:01:34,050 --> 01:01:41,240
not testifying against Julian about
exactly this question. So it's not only
664
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:48,410
the publishing stuff that's being
threatened here. Yes, also, but also the
665
01:01:48,410 --> 01:01:53,850
treatment of sources and the whole wording
surrounding the process of acquiring a
666
01:01:53,850 --> 01:02:01,320
source. It's hard for me to like right now
come up with like the concept of how this
667
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:06,620
can continue. But obviously, we are here
at a situation where transparency in
668
01:02:06,620 --> 01:02:14,510
governmental affairs has successfully been
demonstrated to be achievable over the
669
01:02:14,510 --> 01:02:19,800
Internet with the right access to
information and data and also being
670
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,730
challenged by those in power. And so we
better challenge those in power and ensure
671
01:02:24,730 --> 01:02:31,930
that democracy, based on our ability and
our right to know what is happening in our
672
01:02:31,930 --> 01:02:40,910
name is preserved. How are we going to do
that with a country like the formerly
673
01:02:40,910 --> 01:02:47,040
country known as the United States, now
Trumpistan or whatever huff. I mean,
674
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:55,339
even for the United Kingdom huff. But ok,
here we are in old Europe or in Germany
675
01:02:55,339 --> 01:03:00,390
with all its weird history. There's other
countries surrounding us that at least
676
01:03:00,390 --> 01:03:05,300
have a constitution based on some human
rights. The United Kingdom doesn't even
677
01:03:05,300 --> 01:03:10,900
have a constitution based on that. So at
least for Germany, France, maybe Italy,
678
01:03:10,900 --> 01:03:16,640
Spain and so on, and these countries, I
still see that we can do something. So
679
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:21,010
this is also a bit of a situation between
European and American understanding of
680
01:03:21,010 --> 01:03:26,589
governance at all. And we just can't let
this happen. I mean, this is not about
681
01:03:26,589 --> 01:03:31,900
Julian. This is about our ability to deal
with governments or if you want to hear it
682
01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:35,953
the other way around with the governments
abilities to deal with us.
683
01:03:36,223 --> 01:03:37,732
Herald: Thank you.
684
01:03:37,732 --> 01:03:48,020
applause
685
01:03:48,165 --> 01:03:56,713
postroll music
686
01:03:59,109 --> 01:04:09,861
subtitles created by c3subtitles.de
in the year 2020. Join, and help us!