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Dialogue: 0,0:00:09.56,0:00:13.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: So now, the next talk that\Nwe have here for one hour from 8:30
Dialogue: 0,0:00:13.36,0:00:17.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,’til 9:30 PM is “The Tor Network\N– we’re living in interesting times”.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:17.69,0:00:21.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don’t know how many of you are familiar\Nwith the works of Terry Pratchett.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.50,0:00:26.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But anyways, in the novels of Terry\NPratchett there is the saying:
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.68,0:00:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“And may you live in interesting\Ntimes!” that is actually a curse
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.51,0:00:33.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for someone that you especially\Ndislike; because it usually means
Dialogue: 0,0:00:33.78,0:00:36.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you’re in a lot of trouble. So\NI guess we’re all very excited
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.70,0:00:40.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for this year’s ‘Tor Talk’ by the\Neverlasting Dream Team:
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.61,0:00:44.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob Appelbaum and Roger\NDingledine! There you go!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.21,0:00:46.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}cheers and applause{\i0}\NGive it up!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.97,0:00:54.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}huge applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.66,0:00:58.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob Appelbaum: So, thanks very much\Nto the guy who brought me a Mate.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:58.32,0:01:00.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I learned his name is Alexander. It’s\Nnever a good idea to take drugs
Dialogue: 0,0:01:00.98,0:01:04.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from strangers, so I introduced\Nmyself before I drank it. Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.59,0:01:07.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.37,0:01:11.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First I wanted to say that following up\Nafter Glenn Greenwald is a great honor
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.01,0:01:15.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a really difficult thing to do, that’s\Na really tough act to follow, and
Dialogue: 0,0:01:15.25,0:01:18.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he’s pretty much one of,\NI think, our heroes. So, it’s
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.86,0:01:22.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really great to be able to share the stage\Nwith him, even for just a brief moment.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:22.73,0:01:25.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I wanted to do something a little\Nunconventional when we started
Dialogue: 0,0:01:25.50,0:01:28.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Roger agreed. Which is that we\Nwant people who have questions
Dialogue: 0,0:01:28.66,0:01:32.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– since I suspect some things happened\Nthis year that arouse a lot of questions
Dialogue: 0,0:01:32.44,0:01:37.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in people – we’d like you to write those\Nquestions down, pass them to an Angel
Dialogue: 0,0:01:37.00,0:01:40.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or to just bring them to the front\Nof the stage as soon as possible
Dialogue: 0,0:01:40.94,0:01:44.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,during the talk, so that we can answer as\Nmany of your questions as is possible.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.87,0:01:47.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a lot of stuff that happened,\Nthere’s a lot of confusion, and we wanna
Dialogue: 0,0:01:47.94,0:01:51.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make sure that people feel like\Nwe are actually answering
Dialogue: 0,0:01:51.69,0:01:55.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those questions in a useful way.\NAnd if you wanna do that, it’d be great,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:55.62,0:01:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and otherwise, we’re gonna try to have\Nthe second half of our talk be mostly
Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.10,0:02:03.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,space for questioning.\NSo with that, here is Roger.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.43,0:02:06.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger Dingledine: Okay, so, a lot of\Nthings have happened over this past year,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:06.66,0:02:09.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we’re gonna try to cover\Nas many of them as we can.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.22,0:02:12.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here’s a great quote\Nfrom either NSA or GCHQ,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:12.60,0:02:14.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I’m actually not sure which one it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.93,0:02:17.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we’re gonna start a little bit\Nearlier in the process than this
Dialogue: 0,0:02:17.60,0:02:20.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and work our way up to that.\NSo, we’re in a war,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.84,0:02:23.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or rather, conflict of perception here.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.53,0:02:26.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are a lot – I mean,\Nyou saw Glenn’s talk earlier
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.08,0:02:29.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– there are a lot of large media\Norganizations out there
Dialogue: 0,0:02:29.04,0:02:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are trying to present Tor\Nin lots of different ways,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.50,0:02:35.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we all here understand\Nthe value that Tor provides
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.50,0:02:38.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the world, but there are a growing\Nnumber of people around the world
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.52,0:02:41.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are learning about Tor\Nnot from our website, or from
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.52,0:02:44.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seeing one of these talks or from\Nlearning it from somebody who uses it
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.78,0:02:48.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and teaches them how to use it.\NBut they read the Time Magazine
Dialogue: 0,0:02:48.89,0:02:52.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or Economist or whatever the\Nmainstream newspapers are,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.69,0:02:57.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and part of our challenge is how do we\Nhelp you, and help the rest of the world
Dialogue: 0,0:02:57.14,0:03:01.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do outreach and education, so that\Npeople can understand what Tor is for
Dialogue: 0,0:03:01.37,0:03:05.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and how it works and what\Nsorts of people actually use it.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:05.28,0:03:09.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, e.g. GCHQ has been given instructions
Dialogue: 0,0:03:09.37,0:03:13.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to try to kill Tor by, I mean, who knows,\Nmaybe they thought of it on their own,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.23,0:03:17.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe we can imagine some nearby\Ngovernments asked them to do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:17.59,0:03:21.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And part of the challenge…\Nthey say: “we have to kill it
Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.15,0:03:24.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of child porn”. And it\Nturns out that we actually do know
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.78,0:03:29.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that some people around the\Nworld are using Tor for child porn.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.15,0:03:33.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,E.g. we have talked to\Na lot of federal agencies
Dialogue: 0,0:03:33.08,0:03:35.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who use Tor to fetch child porn.\N{\i1}subdued laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.55,0:03:37.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I talked to people in the\NFBI who use Tor every day
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.97,0:03:42.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to safely reach the websites\Nthat they want to investigate.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.66,0:03:46.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The most crazy example of this is\Nactually the Internet Watch Foundation.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.74,0:03:49.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many people here have heard\Nof the Internet Watch Foundation?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.77,0:03:53.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I see a very small number of hands.\NThey are the censorship wing
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.56,0:03:57.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the British Government. They are the\Nsort of quasi-government organization
Dialogue: 0,0:03:57.58,0:04:02.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who is tasked with coming up with the\Nblacklist for the internet for England.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:02.51,0:04:07.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, we got email from them a few years\Nago, saying – not what you’d expect,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.31,0:04:10.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you’d expect “Hey, can you please shut\Nthis thing down, can you turn it off,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.65,0:04:13.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s a big hassle for us!” – the\Nquestion they asked me was:
Dialogue: 0,0:04:13.88,0:04:17.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“How can we make Tor faster?”\N{\i1}laughter, applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:04:17.74,0:04:21.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It turns out that they need Tor,\Nbecause people report URLs to them,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:21.15,0:04:24.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they need to fetch them somehow.\NIt turns out that when you go the URL
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.98,0:04:27.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the allegedly bad stuff on\Nit and you’re coming from
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.79,0:04:32.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Internet Watch Foundation’s\NIP address, they give you kittens!
Dialogue: 0,0:04:32.27,0:04:35.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}\NWho would have known?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.73,0:04:40.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter, applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:04:40.05,0:04:44.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it turns out that these censors\Nneed an anonymity system
Dialogue: 0,0:04:44.70,0:04:50.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in order to censor their internet.\N{\i1}laughter{\i0} Fun times.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:52.89,0:04:56.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So another challenge here: at the\Nsame point, one of my side hobbies
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.67,0:05:01.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is teaching law enforcement how the\Ninternet works, and how security works
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.22,0:05:05.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and how Tor works. So, yeah, their job\Ndoes suck, but it’s actually not our fault
Dialogue: 0,0:05:05.53,0:05:09.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that their job sucks. There are a lot\Nof different challenges to successfully
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.61,0:05:13.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being a good, honest law\Nenforcement person these days.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.21,0:05:17.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, e.g. I went to Amsterdam and Brussels
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.12,0:05:21.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in January of this past year to try to\Nteach various law enforcement groups.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:21.12,0:05:24.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I ended up having a four-hour\Ndebate with the Dutch regional Police,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:24.79,0:05:28.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then another four-hour debate\Nwith a Belgian cybercrime unit,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:28.86,0:05:32.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then another four-hour debate\Nwith the Dutch national Police.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:32.18,0:05:36.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are a lot of good-meaning, smart\Npeople in each of these organizations,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.50,0:05:41.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they end up, as a group, doing\Nsometimes quite bad things.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:41.40,0:05:45.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So part of our challenge is: how do we\Nteach them that Tor is not the enemy
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.16,0:05:50.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for them? And there are a couple of\Nstories that I’ve been trying to refine
Dialogue: 0,0:05:50.84,0:05:55.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using on them. One of them they always\Npull out, the “But what about child porn?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:55.87,0:06:00.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What about bad people? What about some\Ncreep using Tor to do bad things?”.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.28,0:06:04.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the arguments that I tried on\Nthem was, “Okay, so on the one hand
Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.51,0:06:08.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have a girl in Syria\Nwho is alive right now
Dialogue: 0,0:06:08.37,0:06:12.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of Tor. Because her family\Nwas able to communicate safely
Dialogue: 0,0:06:12.65,0:06:17.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the Syrian military didn’t\Nbreak in and murder all of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:17.01,0:06:19.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the other hand, we have a girl\Nin America who is getting hassled
Dialogue: 0,0:06:19.95,0:06:24.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by some creep on the internet\Nwho is stalking her over Tor.”
Dialogue: 0,0:06:24.31,0:06:29.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the question is, how do we balance,\Nhow do we value these things?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.37,0:06:31.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do we assign a value\Nto the girl in Syria?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.40,0:06:33.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do we assign a value\Nto the girl in America
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.57,0:06:36.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so that we can decide which\None of these is more important?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.70,0:06:40.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And actually the answer is, you\Ndon’t get to make that choice,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:40.06,0:06:43.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that’s not the right question to ask.\NBecause if we take Tor away
Dialogue: 0,0:06:43.26,0:06:46.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the girl in Syria, she’s\Ngoing to die. If we take Tor away
Dialogue: 0,0:06:46.85,0:06:51.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the creep in America, he’s got a lot\Nof other options for how he can be a creep
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.30,0:06:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and start stalking people.\NSo if you’re a bad person,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.62,0:06:58.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for various definitions of ‘bad person’,\Nand you’re willing to break laws
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.24,0:07:01.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or go around social norms,\Nyou’ve got a lot of other options
Dialogue: 0,0:07:01.86,0:07:06.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,besides what Tor provides. Whereas there\Nare very few tools out there like Tor
Dialogue: 0,0:07:06.31,0:07:11.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for honest, I’d like to say law-abiding,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:11.00,0:07:15.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but let’s go with civilization-abiding\Ncitizens out there.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.70,0:07:21.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:07:21.11,0:07:24.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: And it’s important to understand\Nthat this hypothetical thing is actually
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.94,0:07:28.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also true for certain values.\NSo at our Tor developer meeting
Dialogue: 0,0:07:28.41,0:07:33.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we had in Munich recently,\Nthat Syrian woman came to us,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:33.79,0:07:38.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and thanked us for Tor. She said:\N“I’m from a city called Homs.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:38.10,0:07:41.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You might have heard about it,\Nit’s not a city anymore. I used Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.94,0:07:45.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My family used Tor. We were able to\Nkeep ourselves safe on the internet
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.15,0:07:49.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thanks to Tor. So I wanted to come\Nhere to Munich to tell you this.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:49.48,0:07:52.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you for the work that you’re\Ndoing.” And for people who
Dialogue: 0,0:07:52.55,0:07:56.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– this was their first dev meeting –\Nthey were completely blown away
Dialogue: 0,0:07:56.04,0:07:58.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to meet this person. “Wow,\Nthe stuff that we’re working on,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.81,0:08:02.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it really does matter, there\Nare real people behind it”.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:02.59,0:08:06.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we were all, I think, very touched\Nby it, and all of us know someone
Dialogue: 0,0:08:06.26,0:08:10.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who has been on the receiving end\Nof people being jerks on the internet.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:10.42,0:08:12.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is a real thing where there\Nare real people involved, and
Dialogue: 0,0:08:12.88,0:08:16.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s really important to understand\Nthat if you remove the option
Dialogue: 0,0:08:16.44,0:08:20.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for that woman in Syria – or you\Nhere in Germany, now that we know
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.13,0:08:23.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what Edward Snowden has told the world…
Dialogue: 0,0:08:23.43,0:08:27.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Those bad guys, those jerks\N– for different values of that –
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.09,0:08:31.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they always have options. But very\Nrarely do all of us have options
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.21,0:08:35.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that will actually keep us safe.\NAnd Tor is certainly not the only one,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.35,0:08:38.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but right now, and we hope in this\Ntalk you’ll see that we’re making
Dialogue: 0,0:08:38.85,0:08:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the right trade-off by working on Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:41.58,0:08:45.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: One of the other talks that I give\Nto them, one of the other stories
Dialogue: 0,0:08:45.45,0:08:49.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I give to them, one of the big\Nquestions they always ask me is:
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.97,0:08:53.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“But what about terrorists?\NAren’t you helping terrorists?”
Dialogue: 0,0:08:53.69,0:08:58.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we can and we should talk about\N“What do you mean by terrorists?”
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.16,0:09:00.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because in China they have a very\Ndifferent definition of terrorists
Dialogue: 0,0:09:00.69,0:09:04.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in Gaza they have a very\Ndifferent definition of terrorists, and
Dialogue: 0,0:09:04.29,0:09:07.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in America, they are always thinking\Nof a small number of people
Dialogue: 0,0:09:07.04,0:09:11.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in some Middle-Eastern country who are\Ntrying to blow up buildings or something –
Dialogue: 0,0:09:11.01,0:09:12.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Mohammed Badguy,\NI think is his name.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:12.71,0:09:15.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Yes, that –\NJacob: In the NSA slides.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:15.60,0:09:19.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Yes. So, scenario 1:
Dialogue: 0,0:09:19.77,0:09:23.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to build a tool that\Nworks for millions of people,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:23.49,0:09:26.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it will work for the next year,\Nand I can tell you how it works,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:26.76,0:09:30.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so you can help me evaluate\Nit. That’s Tor’s problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.49,0:09:34.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Scenario 2: I want to build a tool that\Nwill work for the next 2 weeks,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:34.77,0:09:38.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it will work for 20 people and I’m\Nnot going to tell you about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:38.48,0:09:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are so many more\Nways of solving scenario 2
Dialogue: 0,0:09:41.74,0:09:45.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than solving scenario 1. The bad\Nguys – for all sorts of definitions –
Dialogue: 0,0:09:45.22,0:09:49.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the bad guys have a lot more\Noptions on how they can keep safe.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:49.51,0:09:52.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They don’t have to scale,\Nit doesn’t have to last forever,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:52.33,0:09:55.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they don’t want peer review, they\Ndon’t want anybody to even know
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.17,0:09:58.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it’s happening. So the\Nchallenge that Tor has is
Dialogue: 0,0:09:58.69,0:10:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we wanna build something that works for\Neverybody and that everybody can analyze
Dialogue: 0,0:10:02.92,0:10:07.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and learn about. That’s a much harder\Nproblem, there are far fewer ways
Dialogue: 0,0:10:07.09,0:10:12.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of solving that. So, the terrorists,\Nthey got a lot of options.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:12.00,0:10:15.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That sucks. We need to build tools that\Ncan keep the rest of the world safe.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.81,0:10:19.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: And it’s important, really, to try\Nto have some good rhetorical arguments,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.34,0:10:23.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think. I mean, we sort of\Nput a few facts up here.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.21,0:10:26.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One interesting point to mention\Nis that people who really
Dialogue: 0,0:10:26.83,0:10:29.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don’t want anonymity to exist\Nin a practical sense, maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.74,0:10:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not even in a theoretical, Human\NRights sense either, but definitely
Dialogue: 0,0:10:32.84,0:10:36.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a practical sense, they’re not really\Nhaving honest conversations about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:36.88,0:10:40.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,E.g. this DoJ study – the Department\Nof Justice in the United States – they
Dialogue: 0,0:10:40.44,0:10:44.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually started to do a study where they\Nclassified traffic leaving Tor exit nodes.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.30,0:10:47.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which… it’s interesting that they\Nwere basically probably wiretapping
Dialogue: 0,0:10:47.70,0:10:50.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an exit node to do that study. And\NI wonder how they went about that – but
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.71,0:10:54.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nonetheless, they came up with the\Nnumber 3% of the traffic being bad.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:54.68,0:10:58.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then they aborted the study because\Nthey received many DMCA takedown notices.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:58.09,0:10:59.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}\NRoger: Yes, they –
Dialogue: 0,0:10:59.90,0:11:03.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Apparently even the DMCA\Nis a problem to finding out answers!
Dialogue: 0,0:11:03.00,0:11:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That plague of society! (?)
Dialogue: 0,0:11:04.13,0:11:05.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: {\i1}interrupts{\i0} They asked a\Nuniversity to run the Tor exit for them
Dialogue: 0,0:11:05.69,0:11:08.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they were just starting out\Ndoing their study, and then
Dialogue: 0,0:11:08.43,0:11:11.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the university started getting\NDMCA takedowns and said:
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.98,0:11:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Well, we have to stop, the\Nlawyers told us to stop!”,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:14.76,0:11:18.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the Department of Justice said:\N“We’re the Department of Justice,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:18.58,0:11:21.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,keep doing it”, and then they\Nturned it off. {\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.10,0:11:25.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, not sure how the balance of power\Ngoes there, but the initial results
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.06,0:11:28.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were looking towards\Nwere about 3% of the traffic
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.10,0:11:31.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming out of that Tor exit node was bad,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:31.47,0:11:35.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I haven’t figured out what they mean\Nby ‘bad’. But I’ll take it if it’s 3%.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:35.41,0:11:41.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: And I personally don’t\Nlike to use the word ‘war’
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.02,0:11:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when talking about the internet.\NAnd I particularly dislike
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.74,0:11:48.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we talk about actual\Nissues of terrorism.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:48.71,0:11:51.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that we should talk about it\Nin terms of perception and conflict.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:51.92,0:11:55.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the most frustrating\Nthings is: the BBC
Dialogue: 0,0:11:55.17,0:11:58.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually has articles on their\Nwebsite instructing people
Dialogue: 0,0:11:58.43,0:12:02.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how to use the Silk Road and\NTor together to buy drugs.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.12,0:12:07.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We very, very seriously do\Nnot ever advocate that,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:07.19,0:12:10.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a bunch of reasons… Not the\Nleast of which is that even though
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.01,0:12:13.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bitcoin is amazing, it’s not\Nan anonymous currency.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.24,0:12:16.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it isn’t the case that these websites\Nare necessarily a good idea and…
Dialogue: 0,0:12:16.25,0:12:19.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it won’t be Tor, I think, that will be\Nthe weakest link. But the fact that
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.95,0:12:24.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the BBC promotes that – it’s because\Nthey generally have “A man bites dog”.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.95,0:12:28.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You could say that that’s their\Nentire Tor related ecosystem.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:28.92,0:12:31.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Anything that could be just\Nkind of a little bit interesting,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:31.50,0:12:33.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’ll run with it. So they have\Nsomething to say about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.87,0:12:37.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in this case they literally were\Npromoting and pushing for people
Dialogue: 0,0:12:37.32,0:12:41.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to buy drugs. Which is crazy to me, to\Nimagine that. And that really impacts
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.75,0:12:45.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the way that people perceive the\NTor Project and the Tor Network.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.54,0:12:48.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what we’re trying to do\Nis not that particular thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:48.16,0:12:51.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is a sort of side effect that occurs.\NWhat we want is for every person
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.70,0:12:55.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have the right to speak freely and the\Nright to read anonymously on the internet.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.96,0:12:59.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: And we also need to keep in\Nmind the different incentive structures
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.74,0:13:04.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they have. So BBC posted their\Nfirst article about Silk Road and Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:04.52,0:13:07.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the comment section was\Npacked with “Oh, wow, thanks!
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.80,0:13:11.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh, this is great! Oh, I don’t have to go\Nto the street corner and getting shot!
Dialogue: 0,0:13:11.20,0:13:14.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh! Wow! Thanks! This is great!” Just\Ncomment after comment, of people saying:
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.66,0:13:18.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Thank you for telling me about this!”\NAnd then a week later they posted
Dialogue: 0,0:13:18.24,0:13:23.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a follow-up article saying “And we\Nbought some, and it was really good!”
Dialogue: 0,0:13:23.00,0:13:25.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter and applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:13:25.87,0:13:29.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what motivation are they doing here?
Dialogue: 0,0:13:29.82,0:13:33.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So their goal in this case is: “Let’s get\Nmore clicks. Doesn’t matter what it takes,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.18,0:13:35.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn’t matter what we\Ndestroy while we’re doing it.”
Dialogue: 0,0:13:35.92,0:13:39.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: So that has some serious problems,\Nobviously. Because then there are
Dialogue: 0,0:13:39.87,0:13:44.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different structures that exist to attack\N– as part of the War on Some Drugs –
Dialogue: 0,0:13:44.20,0:13:47.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they want to show that their\Nmission is of course impacted by Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:47.97,0:13:50.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They want to have an enemy that\Nthey can paint a target on. They want
Dialogue: 0,0:13:50.46,0:13:55.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something sexy that they can get funding\Nfor. So here’s a little funny story
Dialogue: 0,0:13:55.15,0:13:59.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about an agent, as it says in the last\Npoint, who showed this massive drop
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.05,0:14:02.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Tor Network load after Silk\NRoad was busted. Right? Because
Dialogue: 0,0:14:02.00,0:14:04.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everybody realizes of course that all\Nof the anonymity traffic in the world
Dialogue: 0,0:14:04.95,0:14:06.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,must be for elicit (?) things.\N
Dialogue: 0,0:14:06.26,0:14:08.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: So this was at a particular meeting
Dialogue: 0,0:14:08.01,0:14:11.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where they were trying to get more funding\Nfor this. This is a US Government person
Dialogue: 0,0:14:11.55,0:14:15.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who basically said: “I evaluated\Nthe Tor Network load
Dialogue: 0,0:14:15.62,0:14:19.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,during the Silk Road bust. And\NI saw 50% network load drop
Dialogue: 0,0:14:19.82,0:14:23.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when the Silk Road bust happened.”\NSo I started out with him
Dialogue: 0,0:14:23.60,0:14:27.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,arguing: “Actually, you know, when\Nthere’s a huge amount of publicity about
Dialogue: 0,0:14:27.64,0:14:30.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– I don’t know – if Tor is broken, we can\Nunderstand, that would be reasonable,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:30.97,0:14:34.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that some Tor people would stop using\NTor for a little while, in order to wait
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.54,0:14:37.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for more facts to come out and then will\Nbe more prepared for it.” But then
Dialogue: 0,0:14:37.98,0:14:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I thought: “You know, wait a minute, we\Ngot the Tor Metrics database. We have
Dialogue: 0,0:14:41.58,0:14:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of this data of load on the network.”
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.12,0:14:48.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So then I went: “Let’s go actually\Nsee if there was a 50% drop on
Dialogue: 0,0:14:48.76,0:14:52.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Tor Network!” So the green\Nline here is the capacity
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.58,0:14:56.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Tor Network over time. So the\Namount of bytes that relays can push
Dialogue: 0,0:14:56.74,0:15:00.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if we were loading it down\Ncompletely. And the purple line is
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.12,0:15:04.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the number of bytes that are actually\Nhandled on the network over time.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:04.05,0:15:08.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Can you guess? If you don’t\Nlook at the date at the bottom,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:08.59,0:15:12.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can you show what that\Nagent was talking about?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:12.15,0:15:16.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or is the agent totally full of shit?\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.06,0:15:21.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just a… hypothetical question, but if you\Nhave a theo… anyone? Shout it out! Yeah!
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.53,0:15:23.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[unintelligible from audience]
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.38,0:15:29.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh that’s right! It didn’t go down by 50%!\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:15:29.58,0:15:33.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wow! He was completely wrong!
Dialogue: 0,0:15:33.56,0:15:37.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But just for the record, that’s\Nwhere he said there was a drop!
Dialogue: 0,0:15:37.41,0:15:45.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter and applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.51,0:15:48.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: And while we’ve talked you had\Nto read these graphs. Here is a graph
Dialogue: 0,0:15:48.69,0:15:52.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the overall network growth\Nover the past 3 or 4 years.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:52.46,0:15:56.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the green line, again, is the amount of\Ncapacity. And we’ve seen a bunch of people
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.37,0:16:00.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adding fast relays recently,\Nafter the Snowden issues.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:00.24,0:16:03.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we’ll talk a little bit later about\Nwhat other reasons people are running
Dialogue: 0,0:16:03.80,0:16:10.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more capacity lately, as the\Nload on the network goes up.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:10.24,0:16:14.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay. And then there is the\N‘Dark Web’. Or the ‘Deep Web’.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:14.35,0:16:17.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or the Whatever-else-the-hell-you-call-it\NWeb. And again,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.77,0:16:22.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this comes back to media trying to\Nproduce as many articles as they can.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:22.47,0:16:27.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So here’s the basic… I’ll give you\Nthe primer on this ‘Dark Web’ thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:27.12,0:16:32.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Statement 1: “The Dark Web is every web\Npage out there that Google can’t index.”
Dialogue: 0,0:16:32.91,0:16:36.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That’s the definition of the Dark Web.\N{\i1}laughter and applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:16:36.71,0:16:40.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.21,0:16:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So every Corporate database,\Nevery Government database,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:45.12,0:16:48.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything that you access with a\Nweb browser at work or whatever,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.87,0:16:52.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all those things that Google can’t get to,\Nthat is the Dark Web. That’s statement 1.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.44,0:16:57.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Statement 2: “90+X% of web\Npages are in the Dark Web.”
Dialogue: 0,0:16:57.80,0:17:01.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So these were both well-known\Nfacts a year ago.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.09,0:17:04.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Statement 3, that the media has\Nadded this year: “The only way
Dialogue: 0,0:17:04.77,0:17:10.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to access the Dark Web is through Tor.”\N{\i1}laughter, some applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:17:10.50,0:17:13.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These 3 statements together\Nsell more and more articles
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.93,0:17:16.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it’s great, people buy them,\Nthey’re all shocked: “Oh my god,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:16.73,0:17:20.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the web is bigger than I thought,\Nand it’s all because of Tor”.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:20.01,0:17:25.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter and applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:17:25.43,0:17:30.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: So, really… the reality of this\Nis that it’s not actually the case.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:30.34,0:17:33.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Obviously that’s a completely laughable\Nthing. And for everyone that’s here –
Dialogue: 0,0:17:33.81,0:17:37.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not necessarily people watching on the\Nvideo stream – but for everyone here,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:37.06,0:17:40.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, you realize how ridiculous\Nthat is. That entire setup
Dialogue: 0,0:17:40.78,0:17:45.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is obviously a kind of ‘clickbait’, if\Nyou would call it something like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:45.08,0:17:48.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are a few high-profile Hidden\NServices. And actually, this is
Dialogue: 0,0:17:48.55,0:17:51.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a show of hands: raise your hand\Nif you run a Tor Hidden Service!
Dialogue: 0,0:17:51.54,0:17:53.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}few hands go up{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:17:53.25,0:17:57.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right. So, no one’s ever heard of your\NTor Hidden Service. Almost certainly.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:57.23,0:18:01.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And these are the ones that people have\Nheard of. And this is something which is
Dialogue: 0,0:18:01.25,0:18:06.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of a fascinating reality\Nwhich is that these 4 sites,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:06.23,0:18:10.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or these 4 entities have\Nproduced most of the stories
Dialogue: 0,0:18:10.19,0:18:13.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,related to the deep gaping\Nwhatever web, that
Dialogue: 0,0:18:13.80,0:18:18.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you wanna call it the Dark Web. And,\Nin fact, for the most part, it’s been…
Dialogue: 0,0:18:18.71,0:18:22.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would say the Top one\Ne.g., with Wikileaks,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:22.24,0:18:26.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s a positive example. And,\Nin fact, with GlobaLeaks,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:26.04,0:18:29.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is something that Arturo Filastò\Nand a number of other really great
Dialogue: 0,0:18:29.38,0:18:33.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Italian hackers here have been working\Non, GlobaLeaks, they’re deploying
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.41,0:18:36.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more and more Hidden Services that you\Nalso haven’t heard about. For localized
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.35,0:18:40.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,corruption, reporting and whistleblowing.\NBut the news doesn’t report about
Dialogue: 0,0:18:40.41,0:18:43.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Arturo’s great work. The news\Nreports are on The Farmer’s Market,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:43.79,0:18:48.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on Freedom Hosting and\Non Silk Road. And those things
Dialogue: 0,0:18:48.37,0:18:51.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also bring out a disproportionate\Namount of incredible negative attention.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:51.64,0:18:55.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the case of freedom hosting, we\Nhave a developer, Mike Perry, who’s
Dialogue: 0,0:18:55.09,0:18:58.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of the most incredible\Nevil genius alive today.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:58.43,0:19:02.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think he’s probably at about 2 Mike\NPerrys right now. That’ll be my guess.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:02.70,0:19:06.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he was relentlessly attacked.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.46,0:19:10.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because he happened to have\Na registration for a company
Dialogue: 0,0:19:10.43,0:19:14.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which had an F and an H in the name.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:14.69,0:19:18.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wasn’t actually even close\Nto what’s up there now.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:18.14,0:19:21.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he was relentlessly attacked because\Nthe topics that the other sites have
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.89,0:19:25.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as part of their customer base or as part\Nof the things that they’re pushing online,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.77,0:19:29.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they really pull on people’s\Nhearts in a big way.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:29.40,0:19:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that sort of created\Na lot of stress. I mean,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:32.50,0:19:35.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the first issue, Wikileaks, created a\Nlot of stress for people working on Tor
Dialogue: 0,0:19:35.47,0:19:38.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in various different ways. But for Mike\NPerry, he was personally targeted,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:38.96,0:19:42.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in sort of Co-Intel-Pro style\Nharassment. And really sad,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:42.84,0:19:46.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a really sad series of events.\NAnd of course, the news
Dialogue: 0,0:19:46.69,0:19:50.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also picked up on that, in some\Nnegative ways. And they really, really
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.25,0:19:52.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,picked up on that. And that’s a really\Nbig part of I think you could call it
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.74,0:19:57.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a kind of cultural conflict\Nthat we’re in, right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:57.13,0:19:59.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The farmer’s market has also\Nquite an interesting story.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:59.44,0:20:00.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which I think you wanted to tell.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:00.88,0:20:05.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Yeah, so, I actually heard from\Na DEA person who was involved
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.23,0:20:09.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the eventual bust of\Nthe Farmer’s Market story.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:09.15,0:20:12.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Long ago there was a website on\Nthe internet, and they sold drugs.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:12.88,0:20:16.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh my god. And there were people\Nwho bought drugs from this website
Dialogue: 0,0:20:16.63,0:20:21.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Tor was nowhere in the story. It\Nwas some website in South East Asia.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:21.28,0:20:24.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the DEA wanted to take\Nit down. So they learned…
Dialogue: 0,0:20:24.59,0:20:28.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean the website was public. It was\Na public web server. So they sent
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.14,0:20:31.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some sort of letter to the country that it\Nwas in. And the country that it was in
Dialogue: 0,0:20:31.78,0:20:35.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,said: “Screw you!”. And then they said:\N“Okay, well, I guess we can’t take down
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.19,0:20:39.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the web server”. So then they started to\Ntry to investigate the people behind it.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:39.48,0:20:42.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it turns out the people\Nbehind it used Hushmail.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:42.79,0:20:46.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they were happily communicating\Nwith each other very safely.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:46.82,0:20:50.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the folks in the US\Nsent a letter to Canada.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:50.38,0:20:53.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then Canada made Hushmail basically\Ngive them the entire database
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.47,0:20:58.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of all the emails that these people\Nhad sent. And then, a year or 2 later,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.29,0:21:01.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these people discovered Tor. And they’re\Nlike: “Hey we should switch our website
Dialogue: 0,0:21:01.32,0:21:05.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over to Tor and then it will be safe.\NThat sounds good!”. The DEA people
Dialogue: 0,0:21:05.17,0:21:08.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were watching them the whole time\Nlooking for a good time to bust them.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:08.58,0:21:11.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then they switched over to Tor, and\Nthen 6 months later it was a good time
Dialogue: 0,0:21:11.39,0:21:15.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to bust them. So then there were all\Nthese newspaper articles about how
Dialogue: 0,0:21:15.35,0:21:18.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Tor Hidden Services are\Nobviously broken. And
Dialogue: 0,0:21:18.88,0:21:21.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the first time I heard the story\NI was thinking in myself:
Dialogue: 0,0:21:21.87,0:21:25.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Idiot drug sellers use Paypal\N– get busted – end of story”.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:25.87,0:21:26.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughing{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:21:26.83,0:21:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they were actually using Paypal\Ncorrectly. They had innocent people
Dialogue: 0,0:21:30.32,0:21:33.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around the world who were receiving\NPaypal payments and turning it into some
Dialogue: 0,0:21:33.72,0:21:38.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Panama based e-currency or\Nsomething. So the better lesson
Dialogue: 0,0:21:38.12,0:21:42.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the story is: “Idiot drug sellers\Nuse Hushmail – get busted”.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:42.33,0:21:45.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there are a lot of different\Npieces of all of these.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.01,0:21:48.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Don’t use Hushmail!\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.07,0:21:51.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Seriously! It’s a bad idea! And\Ndon’t use things where they have
Dialogue: 0,0:21:51.96,0:21:55.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a habit of backdooring their\Nservice or cooperating
Dialogue: 0,0:21:55.27,0:21:57.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with so called ‘lawful interception\Norders’. Because it tells you that
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.86,0:22:03.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their system is not secure. And it’s clear\Nthat Hushmail falls into that category.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:03.41,0:22:07.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They fundamentally have chosen that\Nthat is what they would like to do.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:07.22,0:22:10.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they should have that reputation.\NAnd we should respect them exactly
Dialogue: 0,0:22:10.68,0:22:14.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as much as they deserve for that. So\Ndon’t use their service. If you can.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:14.04,0:22:17.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Especially if you’re gonna do\Nthis kind of stuff. {\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:22:17.23,0:22:20.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or maybe what I mean is: guys,\Ndo that – use Hushmail.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:20.26,0:22:25.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But everybody else, protect yourself!\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:22:25.62,0:22:29.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, the thing is that\Nnot every single person
Dialogue: 0,0:22:29.86,0:22:33.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is actually stupid enough to use Hushmail.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:33.35,0:22:36.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So as a result, we had started to\Nsee some pretty crazy stuff happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:36.69,0:22:39.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which we of course knew would happen and\Nwe always understood that this would be
Dialogue: 0,0:22:39.94,0:22:44.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a vector. So, in this case,\Nthis year we saw,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:44.39,0:22:48.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, one of the probably not\Nthe most interesting exploits
Dialogue: 0,0:22:48.66,0:22:52.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we’ve ever seen. But one\Nof the most interesting exploits
Dialogue: 0,0:22:52.48,0:22:56.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we’ve ever seen deployed\Nagainst a broad scale of users.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:56.40,0:23:00.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we’re not exactly sure\Nwho was behind it. Though
Dialogue: 0,0:23:00.15,0:23:04.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was an FBI person who went\Nto court in Ireland and did in fact
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.25,0:23:08.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,claim that they were behind it. The IP\Nspace that the exploit connected back to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:08.25,0:23:13.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was either SAIC or NSA.\NAnd I had an exchange
Dialogue: 0,0:23:13.79,0:23:18.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with one of the guys behind the VUPEN\Nexploit company. And he has
Dialogue: 0,0:23:18.20,0:23:21.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on a couple of occasions mentioned\Nwriting exploits for Tor Browser.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.98,0:23:25.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what he really means is Firefox. And
Dialogue: 0,0:23:25.48,0:23:28.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is a serious problem of course. If\Nthey want to target a person, though,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:28.39,0:23:33.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the first they have to actually find them.\NSo traditionally, if you’re not using Tor,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:33.24,0:23:36.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they go to your house, they plug in some\Ngear. They go to the ISP upstream,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:36.96,0:23:39.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they plug in some gear. Or they do\Nsome interception with an IMSI catcher,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:39.62,0:23:43.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and things like that. Most of these\Ntechniques, I’ll talk about on Monday
Dialogue: 0,0:23:43.34,0:23:48.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with Claudio. If you’re interested.\NBut basically it’s the same.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:48.31,0:23:51.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They find out who you are,\Nthen they begin to target you,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:51.38,0:23:54.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then they serve you an exploit.\NThis year one of the differences is
Dialogue: 0,0:23:54.56,0:23:58.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they had actually taken over a Tor\NHidden Service. And started to serve up
Dialogue: 0,0:23:58.76,0:24:02.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an exploit from that. Just trying\Nto exploit every single person
Dialogue: 0,0:24:02.33,0:24:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that visited the Hidden Service. So there\Nwas a period of time when you could
Dialogue: 0,0:24:04.98,0:24:08.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really badly troll all of your friends\Nby just putting a link up where
Dialogue: 0,0:24:08.67,0:24:12.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it would load in an iFrame and they would\Nhave been exploited. If they were running
Dialogue: 0,0:24:12.80,0:24:16.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an old version of Firefox. And\Nan old version of Tor Browser.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:16.41,0:24:19.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which was an interesting twist. They\Ndidn’t actually, as far as we know,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.53,0:24:24.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,use that exploit against anyone\Nwhile it was a fresh Zeroday.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:24.55,0:24:27.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they did write it. And they\Ndid serve it out. And they gave
Dialogue: 0,0:24:27.54,0:24:31.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the rest of the world the payload\Nto use against whoever they’d like.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:31.91,0:24:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, when the FBI did this, they basically\Ngave an exploit against Firefox
Dialogue: 0,0:24:36.24,0:24:40.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Tor Browser to the Syrian Electronic\NArmy who couldn’t have written one,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.14,0:24:43.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if they wanted to. This is\Na really interesting difference
Dialogue: 0,0:24:43.78,0:24:47.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between other ways that the FBI might\Ntry to bust you, where they can localize
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.92,0:24:52.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the damage of hitting untargeted\Npeople who are otherwise innocent,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:52.53,0:24:56.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially. But we’ve asked\NFirefox to try to integrate
Dialogue: 0,0:24:56.57,0:24:59.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of these privacy-related things that\Nwe’ve done. We’d like to be able to be
Dialogue: 0,0:24:59.56,0:25:03.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more up-to-speed with Firefox and\Nthey generally seem premili, too (?)
Dialogue: 0,0:25:03.60,0:25:08.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think that’s a fair thing to say.\NBut we have a de-synchronisation.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:08.42,0:25:12.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But even with that de-synchronisation we\Nwere still ahead of what they were doing
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.48,0:25:16.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as far as we can tell. But they\Nare actually at the point where
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.33,0:25:20.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they have hired probably some people\Nfrom this community – fuck you –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:20.73,0:25:25.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they write those exploits.\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:25:25.10,0:25:28.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And serve them up.\NAnd so that is a new turn.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:28.29,0:25:32.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We had not seen that before this year.\NAnd that’s a really serious change.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:32.31,0:25:34.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As a result we’ve obviously been\Nlooking into Chrome, which has
Dialogue: 0,0:25:34.70,0:25:38.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a very different architecture. And in some\Ncases it’s significantly harder to exploit
Dialogue: 0,0:25:38.06,0:25:41.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than Firefox. Even with just very\Nstraight-forward bugs which should be
Dialogue: 0,0:25:41.55,0:25:44.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very easy to exploit the Chrome team\Nhas done a good job. We want to have
Dialogue: 0,0:25:44.79,0:25:47.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of diversity in the different\Nbrowsers. But we have a very strict
Dialogue: 0,0:25:47.99,0:25:50.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,set of requirements for protecting\NPrivacy with Tor Browser.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:50.97,0:25:54.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there’s a whole design document\Nout there. So just adding Tor
Dialogue: 0,0:25:54.26,0:25:58.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a web browser together is not quite\Nenough. You need some actual thoughts.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:58.77,0:26:03.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That have been – mostly by Mike Perry\Nand Aron Clark (?) – have been elucidated
Dialogue: 0,0:26:03.06,0:26:06.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Tor Browser design document.\NSo we’re hoping to work on that.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:06.69,0:26:09.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If anyone here would like to work on that:\Nthat’s really something where we really
Dialogue: 0,0:26:09.45,0:26:13.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,need some help. Because there is\Nreally only one Mike Perry. Literately
Dialogue: 0,0:26:13.57,0:26:16.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and figuratively.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:16.02,0:26:19.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Okay. Another exciting topic\Npeople have been talking about lately
Dialogue: 0,0:26:19.78,0:26:24.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the diversity of funding. A lot of our\Nfunding comes from governments.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:24.91,0:26:28.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,US mostly but some other ones as\Nwell. Because they have things
Dialogue: 0,0:26:28.49,0:26:32.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they want us to work on. So once upon\Na time when I was looking at fundraising
Dialogue: 0,0:26:32.94,0:26:36.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and how to get money I would go to places\Nand I would say: “We’ve got 10 things
Dialogue: 0,0:26:36.98,0:26:41.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we want to work on. If you\Nwant to fund one of these 10,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:41.22,0:26:45.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can help us set our priorities.\NWe really want to work on
Dialogue: 0,0:26:45.17,0:26:48.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,circumventing censorship, we really want\Nto work on anonymity, we really want
Dialogue: 0,0:26:48.24,0:26:52.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to work on Tor Browser safety. So\Nif you have funding for one of these
Dialogue: 0,0:26:52.99,0:26:56.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then we’ll focus on the one that\Nyou’re most interested in”.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:56.56,0:27:00.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there’s some trade-offs here. On the\None hand government funding is good
Dialogue: 0,0:27:00.16,0:27:04.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we can do more things. That’s\Ngreat. A lot of the stuff that you’ve seen
Dialogue: 0,0:27:04.12,0:27:08.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Tor over the past couple of years\Ncomes from people who are paid full-time
Dialogue: 0,0:27:08.05,0:27:12.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be able to work on Tor and focus\Non it and not have to worry about
Dialogue: 0,0:27:12.09,0:27:15.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where they’re gonna pay their rent\Nor where they’re gonna get food.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:15.48,0:27:19.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the other hand it’s bad because\Nfunders can influence our priorities.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:19.54,0:27:23.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, there’s no conspiracy. It’s not\Nthat people come to us and say:
Dialogue: 0,0:27:23.36,0:27:27.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Here’s money, do a backdoor, etc.”\NWe’re never gonna put any backdoors
Dialogue: 0,0:27:27.32,0:27:28.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Tor, ever.\N
Dialogue: 0,0:27:28.88,0:27:29.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Maybe you could tell the story
Dialogue: 0,0:27:29.84,0:27:33.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about that really high-pitched lady\Nwho tried to get you, to tell you that
Dialogue: 0,0:27:33.10,0:27:36.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was your duty and then you explained…
Dialogue: 0,0:27:36.25,0:27:39.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Give me a few more details!\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.66,0:27:42.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: People have approached us,\Nobviously, in order to try to get us
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.19,0:27:45.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do these types of things. And\Nthis is a serious commitment
Dialogue: 0,0:27:45.22,0:27:48.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the whole Tor community gets behind.\NWhich is that we will never ever
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.71,0:27:53.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,put in a backdoor. And any time that we\Ncan tell that something has gone wrong
Dialogue: 0,0:27:53.31,0:27:56.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we try to fix it as soon\Nas is possible regardless
Dialogue: 0,0:27:56.48,0:28:00.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– actually I would say for myself – of any\Nother consequences. That our commitment
Dialogue: 0,0:28:00.31,0:28:03.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to protecting anonymity\Nof our user base extends
Dialogue: 0,0:28:03.74,0:28:08.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,beyond any reasonable commitment,\Nactually. And we really believe
Dialogue: 0,0:28:08.16,0:28:11.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that commitment. And there are people\Nthat have tried to get us to change that.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:11.14,0:28:15.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Tried to tell us that “oh, it’s only\Nbecause you’re living in the free world,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:15.34,0:28:17.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you’re able to have a company\Nthat (?) and make a profit
Dialogue: 0,0:28:17.76,0:28:21.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you can even right the supper (?). So\Ncome on! Do your duty!” And of course
Dialogue: 0,0:28:21.29,0:28:24.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we tell them we’re non-profit\Nand that we’re not gonna do it,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:24.08,0:28:27.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’re completely\Ndumbfounded. For example.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:27.01,0:28:29.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Now I remember that discussion, yes!\NJacob: Yeah!
Dialogue: 0,0:28:29.74,0:28:34.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:28:34.31,0:28:38.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: This was a discussion with\Na US Department of Justice person
Dialogue: 0,0:28:38.67,0:28:43.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who basically said: “It’s your…\Nthe Congress has given us,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:43.03,0:28:47.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Department of Justice, the\Nright to backdoor everything,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:47.18,0:28:51.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you have a tool\Nthat you haven’t made
Dialogue: 0,0:28:51.27,0:28:55.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,easy for us to backdoor. So\Nit’s your responsibility to fix it
Dialogue: 0,0:28:55.20,0:28:59.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so that we can use the privileges\Nand rights given us by Congress
Dialogue: 0,0:28:59.46,0:29:03.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on surveilling everybody. And\Nyou are taking advantage
Dialogue: 0,0:29:03.77,0:29:07.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the situation that we’ve given you\Nin America where you’ve got good
Dialogue: 0,0:29:07.12,0:29:11.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,freedom of speech and you got other\Nfreedoms etc. You’re stealing
Dialogue: 0,0:29:11.02,0:29:15.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the country. You’re cheating on the\Nprocess by not giving us the backdoor
Dialogue: 0,0:29:15.01,0:29:19.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Congress said we should have”. And\Nthen I said: “Actually we’re a non-profit.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:19.07,0:29:22.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We work for the public good”. And then\Nthe conversation basically ended.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:22.95,0:29:32.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She had no further thing to say.\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:29:32.71,0:29:36.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So part of what we need to do is continue\Nto make tools that are actually safe
Dialogue: 0,0:29:36.44,0:29:41.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as tools. Rather than a lot of the other\Nsystems out there. On the other hand,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:41.77,0:29:45.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,every funder we’ve talked to\Nlately has interesting priorities:
Dialogue: 0,0:29:45.50,0:29:49.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they wanna pay for censorship-resistance,\Nthey wanna pay for outreach, education,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:49.28,0:29:52.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,training etc. We don’t have any\Nfunders right now who want to pay
Dialogue: 0,0:29:52.65,0:29:57.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for better anonymity. And it’s really\Nimportant for some of the people
Dialogue: 0,0:29:57.37,0:30:00.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we heard about in the last talk that\Nthey have really good anonymity
Dialogue: 0,0:30:00.91,0:30:04.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against really large adversaries.\NAnd I’m not just talking about
Dialogue: 0,0:30:04.48,0:30:07.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,American Intelligence Agencies. There\Nare a lot of Intelligence Agencies
Dialogue: 0,0:30:07.58,0:30:12.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around the world who are trying\Nto learn how to surveil everything.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:12.82,0:30:16.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what should Tor’s role be here?
Dialogue: 0,0:30:16.35,0:30:19.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are a lot of people in the Tor\Ndevelopment community who say:
Dialogue: 0,0:30:19.75,0:30:23.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“What we really need to do is\Nfocus on writing good code,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:23.26,0:30:26.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we’ll let the rest of the world\Ntake care of itself.” There is also
Dialogue: 0,0:30:26.72,0:30:30.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a trade-off from some of the\Nfunders we have right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:30.01,0:30:32.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where I could go up and I could say
Dialogue: 0,0:30:32.76,0:30:36.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of really outrageous\Nthings that I agree with
Dialogue: 0,0:30:36.64,0:30:40.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that you agree with. But some\Nof our funders might wonder
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.73,0:30:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they should keep funding us after\Nthat. So part of what we need to do
Dialogue: 0,0:30:45.12,0:30:49.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is get some funders who are more\Ncomfortable with the messages
Dialogue: 0,0:30:49.45,0:30:53.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that everybody here would like the\Nworld to hear. So if you know anybody
Dialogue: 0,0:30:53.56,0:30:59.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who wants to help provide actual\Nfreedom we’d love to hear from you.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:59.11,0:31:03.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: And it’s important to understand\Nthat we sort of have an interesting place
Dialogue: 0,0:31:03.38,0:31:07.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the world at the moment\Nwhere it’s easy to say
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.09,0:31:11.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we shouldn’t be political. And that\Nin general, there shouldn’t be politics
Dialogue: 0,0:31:11.65,0:31:14.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in what we’re doing. And\Nit’s also easy to understand
Dialogue: 0,0:31:14.74,0:31:19.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that that’s crazy when someone\Nsays that to an extent. Because
Dialogue: 0,0:31:19.43,0:31:23.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea of having free speech, having\Nthe right to read, having the ability
Dialogue: 0,0:31:23.35,0:31:27.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to reach a website that is beyond\Nof the power of the state
Dialogue: 0,0:31:27.53,0:31:31.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– that is a very political thing for\Nmany people. And it is often the privilege
Dialogue: 0,0:31:31.93,0:31:35.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of some, where they don’t even\Nrealize that’s a political statement.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:35.42,0:31:37.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\NAnd they suggest…
Dialogue: 0,0:31:37.94,0:31:41.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that they suggest that we don’t need\Nto be political. We need to recognize the
Dialogue: 0,0:31:41.72,0:31:45.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political context that we exist in. And\Nespecially after the summer of Snowden,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:45.78,0:31:50.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,understanding that there\Nare almost no tools
Dialogue: 0,0:31:50.16,0:31:53.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that can resist the NSA\Nand GCHQ. Almost none.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:53.88,0:31:56.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We did not survive completely\Nin the summer of Snowden.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:56.71,0:32:01.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They were able to get some Tor users.\NBut they couldn’t get all Tor users!
Dialogue: 0,0:32:01.51,0:32:05.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That’s really important. We change\Nthe economic game for them.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:05.10,0:32:08.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that, fundamentally,\Nis a political issue!
Dialogue: 0,0:32:08.53,0:32:18.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:32:18.26,0:32:21.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But please note that the solution\Nis not a Partisan solution.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:21.86,0:32:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where we say: well, some people\Nare good and some are bad.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:25.76,0:32:29.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You guys over there, on the left\Nor on the right, you don’t deserve
Dialogue: 0,0:32:29.25,0:32:32.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have freedom of speech. You\Ndon’t have the right to read.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:32.81,0:32:36.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We aren’t saying that. We’re saying that\Nthe common good of everyone having
Dialogue: 0,0:32:36.22,0:32:39.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these fundamental rights\Nprotected in a practical way
Dialogue: 0,0:32:39.94,0:32:43.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is an important thing for us to build\Nand for all of us to contribute to,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:43.46,0:32:47.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and for every person to\Nhave. That is, I think,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:47.14,0:32:50.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the best kind of political solution\Nwe can come up with.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:50.04,0:32:54.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Though it is a very controversial\None in some ways. I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:32:54.11,0:32:57.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can’t actually do it unless everyone\Nreally starts to agree with us.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:57.89,0:33:01.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we are making a lot of positive change\Nin this. As we saw with the network graph.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.92,0:33:05.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this comes from\NMutual Aid and Solidarity.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:05.59,0:33:09.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which most of the people\Nin this room provide.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:09.02,0:33:12.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: And that diversity of\Nusers is actually technically
Dialogue: 0,0:33:12.81,0:33:16.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what makes Tor safe. You need to have
Dialogue: 0,0:33:16.29,0:33:20.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,activists in various countries,\Nand folks in Russia right now,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:20.55,0:33:24.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and law enforcement around the\Nworld. You need to have them all
Dialogue: 0,0:33:24.02,0:33:27.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the same network. Otherwise\Nif I see that you’re using Tor,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:27.58,0:33:31.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can start guessing why you’re using\NTor. So we need that diversity
Dialogue: 0,0:33:31.33,0:33:35.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of users. Not just for\Na perception perspective
Dialogue: 0,0:33:35.11,0:33:39.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but for an actual technical perspective.\NWe need to have all the different
Dialogue: 0,0:33:39.18,0:33:42.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,types of users out there blending\Ninto the same system
Dialogue: 0,0:33:42.35,0:33:46.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so that they can keep each other\Nsafe. So part of the hobbies
Dialogue: 0,0:33:46.57,0:33:50.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that each Tor person has,\Nwe’re all getting better
Dialogue: 0,0:33:50.37,0:33:54.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at outreach to various communities.\NSo, I mentioned earlier
Dialogue: 0,0:33:54.05,0:33:58.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I talked to law enforcement to try\Nto teach them how these things work.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:58.10,0:34:00.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Turns out that having Jake talk to\Nlaw enforcement is not actually
Dialogue: 0,0:34:00.73,0:34:02.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the most effective way to\Nconvince them of things
Dialogue: 0,0:34:02.76,0:34:03.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}\Nso…
Dialogue: 0,0:34:03.76,0:34:07.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: I’m, I’m, I’m, eh, you know, my\Nlawyer gave me some great advice
Dialogue: 0,0:34:07.67,0:34:11.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I can tell you without breaking the\Nprivilege of our other communications.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:11.12,0:34:14.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which he says: “never miss the\Nchance to shut the fuck up!”
Dialogue: 0,0:34:14.13,0:34:17.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}\NAnd that I think really really underscores
Dialogue: 0,0:34:17.48,0:34:20.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why I should not talk to the Police\Nabout why they also need
Dialogue: 0,0:34:20.28,0:34:24.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,traffic analysis resistance, reachability,\Nnetwork security, privacy and anonymity.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:24.07,0:34:27.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger’s much much more diplomatic.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:27.25,0:34:31.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: So at the same time we have\Npeople talking to domestic violence
Dialogue: 0,0:34:31.31,0:34:34.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and abuse groups and teaching them\Nhow to be safe. And at the same time
Dialogue: 0,0:34:34.79,0:34:38.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have folks at corporations\Nlearning how to be safe online.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:38.28,0:34:42.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We hear from large companies\Nwho are saying: “I want to
Dialogue: 0,0:34:42.39,0:34:46.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,put the entire corporate\Ntraffic over Tor
Dialogue: 0,0:34:46.51,0:34:50.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we actually do have adversaries\Nand they actually are spying on us
Dialogue: 0,0:34:50.23,0:34:53.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they do want to learn what we’re\Ndoing. So how do we become safe
Dialogue: 0,0:34:53.53,0:34:57.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from these situations?” So part of\Nwhat we need is help from all of you
Dialogue: 0,0:34:57.37,0:35:00.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to become outreach for all of your\Ncommunities. And get better
Dialogue: 0,0:35:00.79,0:35:04.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at teaching people about why privacy\Nis important for the communities
Dialogue: 0,0:35:04.41,0:35:08.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you’re talking to and learn how to\Nuse their language and convince them
Dialogue: 0,0:35:08.69,0:35:11.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that these things are important.\NAnd at the same time teach them
Dialogue: 0,0:35:11.48,0:35:15.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the other groups out there who\Ncare. So that they can understand
Dialogue: 0,0:35:15.46,0:35:20.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it’s a bigger issue than just\Nwhatever they’re most focused on.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.73,0:35:25.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, so, a while ago I wrote up\Na list of 3 ways to destroy Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:25.89,0:35:29.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first way – we have\Na handle on it for a while.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:29.21,0:35:33.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first way is: change the laws\Nor the policies or the cultures
Dialogue: 0,0:35:33.71,0:35:37.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so that anonymity is outlawed.\NAnd we’re pretty good
Dialogue: 0,0:35:37.08,0:35:40.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at fighting back in governments\Nand policy and culture etc.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:40.82,0:35:44.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and saying: “No, there are good uses of\Nthese things, you can’t take them away
Dialogue: 0,0:35:44.82,0:35:50.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the world”. The second way:\NMake ISPs hate hosting exit relays.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:50.47,0:35:54.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if more and more ISPs say:\N“No, I’m not gonna do that”
Dialogue: 0,0:35:54.21,0:35:57.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then eventually the Tor Network\Nshrinks reducing the anonymity
Dialogue: 0,0:35:57.34,0:36:00.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it can provide because there’s not as\Nmuch diversity of where you might
Dialogue: 0,0:36:00.82,0:36:04.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pop out of the Tor Network to go to\Nthe websites. So I think we’re doing
Dialogue: 0,0:36:04.48,0:36:07.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pretty well fighting that fight.\NWe’ve known about it for a while.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:07.69,0:36:11.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s one we’ve been focusing on\Nfor a long time. Torservers.net
Dialogue: 0,0:36:11.06,0:36:14.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a lot of other groups are doing great\Nwork at building and maintaining
Dialogue: 0,0:36:14.62,0:36:19.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relationships with ISPs. But the third\None is one that we haven’t focused on
Dialogue: 0,0:36:19.25,0:36:23.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as much as we should. Which is:\Nmake websites hate Tor users.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:23.49,0:36:27.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So a growing number of\Nplaces are just refusing
Dialogue: 0,0:36:27.39,0:36:30.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to hear from Tor users\Nat all. Wikipedia did it
Dialogue: 0,0:36:30.82,0:36:33.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a long time ago. Google gives\Nyou a captcha if you’re lucky…
Dialogue: 0,0:36:33.91,0:36:38.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: That’s the best question, ever!\NIf you like, that’s a good setup!
Dialogue: 0,0:36:38.48,0:36:42.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: I’ll cover this one next. So,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:42.51,0:36:46.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Skype is another interesting example\Nhere. If you run a Tor exit relay
Dialogue: 0,0:36:46.94,0:36:50.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you try to skype with somebody\NMicrosoft hangs up on you.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:50.34,0:36:53.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the reason for that is not that\Nthey say: “Oh my god, Tor people
Dialogue: 0,0:36:53.35,0:36:57.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are abusing Skype!” – Microsoft pays\Nsome commercial company out there
Dialogue: 0,0:36:57.50,0:37:00.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to give them a blacklist, they don’t even\Nknow what’s on it, and the company
Dialogue: 0,0:37:00.95,0:37:04.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,puts Tor exit IPs on it. And\Nnow Microsoft blacklists all the
Dialogue: 0,0:37:04.77,0:37:08.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Tor exit relays. And they don’t even know\Nthey’re doing it. They don’t even care.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:08.30,0:37:12.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So as more and more of these\Nblacklisting companies exist
Dialogue: 0,0:37:12.51,0:37:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we’re more and more screwed.\NSo we need help trying to
Dialogue: 0,0:37:16.96,0:37:20.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learn how to teach all of these\Ncompanies how to accept
Dialogue: 0,0:37:20.30,0:37:24.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,users without thinking that IP addresses\Nare the right way to identify people.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:24.95,0:37:29.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: There might also be,\Non point 3, a relationship here
Dialogue: 0,0:37:29.12,0:37:32.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with some of the other\Npoints here. E.g. point 4.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:32.32,0:37:35.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is to say that when\Na company does not want to
Dialogue: 0,0:37:35.87,0:37:39.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give you location anonymity\Nmaybe there’s a reason for that.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:39.86,0:37:44.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, I personally think that Wikipedia\Nis great, I don’t feel so great
Dialogue: 0,0:37:44.30,0:37:48.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about yelp and about Google, most of\Nthe time. And I definitely don’t feel good
Dialogue: 0,0:37:48.48,0:37:51.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about Skype. Given what we’ve\Nlearned it makes sense
Dialogue: 0,0:37:51.86,0:37:56.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they would demonstrate that\Nthey do not respect you as users.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:56.93,0:38:01.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the Tor Network as a way to\Nprotect users from them, actually.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:01.68,0:38:05.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And some of these places will\Nsay that it's basically only being
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.62,0:38:10.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,used for abuse. Often they won’t have\Nmetrics for it. And they will refuse
Dialogue: 0,0:38:10.12,0:38:14.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to work with us to come up with inventive\Nsolutions, like e.g. something
Dialogue: 0,0:38:14.35,0:38:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you have to use a\Nnym system of some kind,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:18.15,0:38:22.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the case of Wikipedia, or something\Nwhere you solve a captcha, something
Dialogue: 0,0:38:22.01,0:38:24.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you have to have an account,\Nsomething where you’re pseudononymous.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:24.80,0:38:29.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you get to retain location privacy.\NAnd actually, in a few cases,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:29.19,0:38:32.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s probably better that Tor is blocked\Nbecause they don’t even
Dialogue: 0,0:38:32.59,0:38:36.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,provide secure logins when you’re not\Nusing Tor. So it’s not necessarily
Dialogue: 0,0:38:36.04,0:38:40.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,always a good thing to use the services,\Nanyway. So in a sort of funny sense
Dialogue: 0,0:38:40.54,0:38:43.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it could be helpful that they’re blocking\NTor. But we would like to improve
Dialogue: 0,0:38:43.78,0:38:48.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those things. And one thing is\Nto show that we need to build
Dialogue: 0,0:38:48.40,0:38:52.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some systems to get these properties. And\Nwe need to show that it is the best thing
Dialogue: 0,0:38:52.50,0:38:56.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right now that we all can use. And\Nwe need people that are working
Dialogue: 0,0:38:56.70,0:38:59.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with these companies, with these\Ncommunities, to actually help us
Dialogue: 0,0:38:59.79,0:39:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to understand how we can\Nbetter serve Tor community,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:04.98,0:39:08.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also the Tor community that\Noverlaps with their community.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:08.87,0:39:12.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Especially Wikipedia. For me personally,\Nit kills me that the way that I get
Dialogue: 0,0:39:12.91,0:39:16.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to edit the Wikipedia, should I edit\Nit, is that I have to send an email
Dialogue: 0,0:39:16.13,0:39:19.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to someone, tell them an account I already\Nhave, ask them to set a special flag
Dialogue: 0,0:39:19.78,0:39:25.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Wikipedia database,\Nand then I can log in and edit.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:25.27,0:39:28.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That’s not really the ideal solution,\NI think. If I’m not being abusive
Dialogue: 0,0:39:28.84,0:39:32.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on Wikipedia I should be able to\Nhave a pseudononymous way to edit.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:32.54,0:39:35.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I should be able to anonymously connect.\NAnd I should be able to do that
Dialogue: 0,0:39:35.31,0:39:38.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from anywhere in the world, especially\Nwhen the local network is censoring me
Dialogue: 0,0:39:38.19,0:39:43.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and my only way to get to the\NWikipedia is to, in fact, use Tor
Dialogue: 0,0:39:43.34,0:39:52.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or something like it.\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:39:52.53,0:39:57.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, the last point on that is this one:\NI obviously joked the church man (?)
Dialogue: 0,0:39:57.31,0:40:01.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Yeah, so I was showing this to an\Nanonymity researcher and he started
Dialogue: 0,0:40:01.66,0:40:05.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yelling: “IPO, IPO, IPO, IPO…” as\Nsoon as he saw this graph of Tor users
Dialogue: 0,0:40:05.80,0:40:10.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over time. So in the course of a week\Nor so we added about 4 or 5 million
Dialogue: 0,0:40:10.65,0:40:14.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Tor clients to the network.\NAnd you’d think: “Oh wow,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:14.98,0:40:19.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this Snowden thing worked,\Nit’s great!” But actually,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:19.28,0:40:24.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some jerk in the Ukraine signed\Nup his 5 million node botnet.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:24.02,0:40:26.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: I mean, one of the good things\Nabout this is that we learned that
Dialogue: 0,0:40:26.89,0:40:30.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Tor Network scales to\Nmore than 5 million users.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:30.94,0:40:33.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: We’ve been working on\Nscalability: it works!
Dialogue: 0,0:40:33.51,0:40:36.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:40:36.93,0:40:41.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: We had to make some changes.\NThere’s e.g. the NTor handshaking
Dialogue: 0,0:40:41.90,0:40:46.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is using elliptic curves. That is\Nsomething which really helps to reduce
Dialogue: 0,0:40:46.18,0:40:51.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the load on the relays. This is a pretty\Nbig change. But there’s a lot of work
Dialogue: 0,0:40:51.68,0:40:54.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Mike Perry has done with load\Nbalancing, lots of work by Nick Mathewson.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:54.75,0:40:58.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lots of changes in the Tor Network\Nfor scalability. But if this had been
Dialogue: 0,0:40:58.77,0:41:01.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a real attacker, or if the botnet had\Nbeen turned against the Tor Network,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:01.67,0:41:05.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it probably would have been fatal,\NI think. A really interesting detail is
Dialogue: 0,0:41:05.58,0:41:09.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this was a botnet for Windows.\NAnd Microsoft has the ability to remove
Dialogue: 0,0:41:09.90,0:41:14.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things that they flag as malicious.\NAnd so they were going around
Dialogue: 0,0:41:14.16,0:41:18.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and removing Tor clients from\NMicrosoft Windows users
Dialogue: 0,0:41:18.43,0:41:22.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that were part of this botnet. Now when we\Ntalked to them, my understanding is that
Dialogue: 0,0:41:22.03,0:41:25.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they only removed it when they were\Ncertain that is was a Tor that came
Dialogue: 0,0:41:25.05,0:41:29.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from this botnet. That’s a lot of power\Nthat Microsoft has there, though!
Dialogue: 0,0:41:29.27,0:41:33.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you’re using Windows, trying to be\Nanonymous, with the device. Bad idea.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:33.62,0:41:36.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: They actually removed the\Nbot and left the Tor client because
Dialogue: 0,0:41:36.52,0:41:39.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they weren’t sure whether they\Nshould remove it. So actually
Dialogue: 0,0:41:39.47,0:41:42.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all those 5 millions are\Nstill running Tor clients.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:42.65,0:41:47.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Whhoops! So, interesting\Npoint here, summer of Snowden.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:47.52,0:41:51.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s hard to tell. There’s\Nsome piece of information
Dialogue: 0,0:41:51.84,0:41:55.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we’re really missing here. Due to\Nthe botnet happening at the same time
Dialogue: 0,0:41:55.26,0:41:59.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s really difficult to understand the\Npublic response to the revelations
Dialogue: 0,0:41:59.51,0:42:03.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about NSA and spying.\NEspecially now. I mean:
Dialogue: 0,0:42:03.06,0:42:06.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we think that most of that is\Nbotnet traffic. Over a million.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:06.59,0:42:10.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Over a million, where it goes\Nup. Over almost a 6 million.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:10.99,0:42:14.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that’s a serious amount\Nof traffic, from that botnet.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:14.91,0:42:18.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that is a really serious threat to\Nthe Tor Network. It can be (?)
Dialogue: 0,0:42:18.83,0:42:22.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a couple of different ways. One of\Nthese things, I mentioned before,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.50,0:42:25.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NTor handshake. But another thing\Nis: if every person in this room
Dialogue: 0,0:42:25.74,0:42:29.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were to run a Tor relay, even\Na middle relay not an exit relay,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:29.35,0:42:32.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it would make it significantly harder to\Nmelt the Tor Network.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:32.51,0:42:33.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I actually think
Dialogue: 0,0:42:33.51,0:42:35.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that would be incredible if you guys\Nwould all do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:35.24,0:42:36.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don’t think that\Nall of you will.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:36.49,0:42:38.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if you did that would\Nmake it so that we could survive
Dialogue: 0,0:42:38.78,0:42:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other events like this in the future.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:42.24,0:42:49.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:42:49.76,0:42:53.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So someone sent a question which we’re\Njust gonna go ahead and answer now.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:53.22,0:42:56.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“When talking of funding for better\Nanonymity, what do you think,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:56.90,0:42:59.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of money,\Nhow much could you need?”
Dialogue: 0,0:42:59.06,0:43:01.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well here’s a thing:
Dialogue: 0,0:43:01.54,0:43:03.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you were willing to fund us\Nwe would really like you.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:03.43,0:43:04.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or I would really like it
Dialogue: 0,0:43:04.81,0:43:07.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially, since I’m probably the one\Nthat threatens the US Government funding
Dialogue: 0,0:43:07.85,0:43:11.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Tor, more than any person in this room.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:11.73,0:43:15.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that it would be great if you\Ncould match the Dollar-to-Dollar
Dialogue: 0,0:43:15.38,0:43:17.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Government funders\Nbring to the table.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:17.83,0:43:18.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We would really like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:18.90,0:43:21.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It would be amazing if that was possible.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:21.80,0:43:22.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there’s actually a hard number
Dialogue: 0,0:43:22.95,0:43:24.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the website.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:24.25,0:43:26.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or if you wanted to\N– as much money as you have.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:26.85,0:43:28.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}\NFeel free!
Dialogue: 0,0:43:28.05,0:43:29.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Either way –
Dialogue: 0,0:43:29.05,0:43:32.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: To give you a sense of\Nscale: right now our 2014 budget
Dialogue: 0,0:43:32.86,0:43:37.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is looking like it will be somewhere\Nbetween 2 Mio US and 3 Mio US,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:37.00,0:43:40.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is great except we’re trying to\Ndo so many different things at once.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:40.85,0:43:45.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If it ends up on the 2 Mio US side\Nwe basically have no funding
Dialogue: 0,0:43:45.16,0:43:46.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for making anonymity better.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:46.66,0:43:48.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If it ends up\Nmore than that then
Dialogue: 0,0:43:48.94,0:43:51.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we’re in better shape and\Nwe can make people more safe.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:51.65,0:43:54.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: And part of the thing is that we\Nhave to build all sorts of tools that are
Dialogue: 0,0:43:54.77,0:43:56.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not directly related to Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:56.65,0:43:58.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In many cases.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:58.09,0:43:59.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Especially because of the funding.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:59.55,0:44:03.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But because we want users to be\Nable to actually use the software
Dialogue: 0,0:44:03.35,0:44:04.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with something else.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:04.39,0:44:06.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s not nearly\Nenough to have a Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:06.44,0:44:07.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You need to be able
Dialogue: 0,0:44:07.44,0:44:08.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do something with the Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:08.44,0:44:09.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know?
Dialogue: 0,0:44:09.44,0:44:11.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that’s a really difficult part.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:11.31,0:44:15.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if there’s specific things we would\Nalso be open to alternate funding models
Dialogue: 0,0:44:15.41,0:44:19.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we fund very specific tasks e.g.\Nthat would be a really great thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:19.34,0:44:21.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We haven’t really\Nexperimented with that.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:21.30,0:44:24.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But on that note I wanted to talk\Nabout classified information.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:24.17,0:44:26.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Everybody ready?\NIt’s not classified any more,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:26.73,0:44:30.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s on the internet?\NI’m not sure. So,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:30.81,0:44:33.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is probably the hot topic\NI would say.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:33.62,0:44:35.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Probably the one\Neveryone wanted to know about.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:35.75,0:44:38.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the NSA and GCHQ
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.20,0:44:41.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have decided that they\Ndon’t like anonymity,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:41.79,0:44:44.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they’re doing everything that\Nthey possibly can to attack it.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:44.88,0:44:47.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,With a few exceptions.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:47.02,0:44:48.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there’re\Na few different programs
Dialogue: 0,0:44:48.64,0:44:50.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– I’m gonna talk a lot about this\Non Monday. So I don’t wanna go
Dialogue: 0,0:44:50.79,0:44:55.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into too much detail about the\Nnon-Tor aspects of it. But
Dialogue: 0,0:44:55.47,0:45:01.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the Tor side of it – Quick Ant is\Nwhat’s called a question-filled data set.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:01.22,0:45:02.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a QFD.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:02.53,0:45:05.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What that means is it’s TLS related\Nsessions, as I understand it.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:05.91,0:45:11.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it is recording data, i.e.\NData Retention about TLS sessions.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:11.86,0:45:14.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s pulled from a larger thing –\NFlying Pig.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:14.72,0:45:17.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which was revealed on I think,\Na Brazilian Television clip, or someone
Dialogue: 0,0:45:17.90,0:45:22.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,photographed a moving\Npicture of Glenn’s screen.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:22.31,0:45:25.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That program is kind of scary.\NBut not too scary.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:25.93,0:45:28.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just looks like after the fact (?) Data\NRetention.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:28.93,0:45:29.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Quantum Insert
Dialogue: 0,0:45:29.93,0:45:34.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the other hand is a pretty\Nstraightforward man-on-the-side-attack.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:34.54,0:45:38.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Foxacid, which is another thing which\Nwe know that’s used against Tor users,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:38.23,0:45:42.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is basically just the ‘Tailored Access\Nand Operations’ web server farm
Dialogue: 0,0:45:42.27,0:45:43.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where they serve out malware.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:43.47,0:45:45.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sort of like a watering hole attack.\NExcept
Dialogue: 0,0:45:45.56,0:45:48.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this case they also combine it with\NQuantum Insert.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:48.33,0:45:49.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that when you visit
Dialogue: 0,0:45:49.33,0:45:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your Yahoo mail\N– NSA and GCHQ love Yahoo –
Dialogue: 0,0:45:53.60,0:45:57.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even when you use Tor\Nthey basically redirect you
Dialogue: 0,0:45:57.52,0:46:01.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by just tagging a little bit of data\Ninto the TCP connection. And
Dialogue: 0,0:46:01.21,0:46:03.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course Tor does its job, it flows all\Nthe way back to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:03.57,0:46:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Your web browser\Nthen loads it.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:04.98,0:46:06.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You’re now connected to\Ntheir server.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:06.15,0:46:09.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Their server delivers\Nmalicious code.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:09.13,0:46:12.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the use it\Nis to pop somebody.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:12.39,0:46:17.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,From what I understand it took\Nthem 8 months to hit one guy.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:17.04,0:46:21.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That’s fucking great, I think, that\Nwe went from ‘everybody all the time
Dialogue: 0,0:46:21.85,0:46:24.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\Nbeing compromisable’ to ‘they have to
Dialogue: 0,0:46:24.23,0:46:29.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very carefully pick one person\Nand work for a long time’.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:29.18,0:46:31.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They really believe that\Nthat’s the right target.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:31.12,0:46:32.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They really understand that
Dialogue: 0,0:46:32.43,0:46:36.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is someone that they\Nwant to go after. And
Dialogue: 0,0:46:36.25,0:46:38.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if that person were to keep their browser\Nup-to-date they probably would have been
Dialogue: 0,0:46:38.63,0:46:40.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ahead of the game.\NNot exactly sure.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:40.97,0:46:43.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there are some other things\Nthat are really dangerous.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:43.25,0:46:45.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is\NQuantum Cookie, e.g. Quantum Cookie
Dialogue: 0,0:46:45.58,0:46:49.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a program where basically\Nthey’re able to elicit
Dialogue: 0,0:46:49.24,0:46:53.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from a connection other connections\Nfrom your web browser
Dialogue: 0,0:46:53.19,0:46:55.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which will get you to\Nleak cookie information.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:55.76,0:46:58.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So let’s say you happen to\Nlog-in to a Yahoo account.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:58.18,0:47:00.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that was a known\Nselector for surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:00.75,0:47:03.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then they thought you might also have\Na Gmail cookie that wasn’t marked secure
Dialogue: 0,0:47:03.92,0:47:07.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you might also have another\Nsearch engine; or you might have
Dialogue: 0,0:47:07.97,0:47:08.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some other cookies.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:08.97,0:47:10.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then they would\Nbasically insert things that your browser
Dialogue: 0,0:47:10.87,0:47:14.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will then request insecurely over the same\Nconnection, to (?) tie them together,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:14.53,0:47:15.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,correlate that.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:15.68,0:47:17.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then they will extract\Nit and they’ll be able to tell that
Dialogue: 0,0:47:17.91,0:47:20.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this selector is linked to\Nthese other selectors.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:20.00,0:47:22.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,’Cause they basically been able\Nto actively probe.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:22.37,0:47:25.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A solution to that is\N‘Https Everywhere’ which we already ship
Dialogue: 0,0:47:25.65,0:47:29.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Tor Browser Bundle\Nbut also to be aware about
Dialogue: 0,0:47:29.48,0:47:33.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,session isolation to maybe\Neven if you’re using things
Dialogue: 0,0:47:33.09,0:47:36.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you’re trying to it as securely as\Npossible – not every site will offer TLS
Dialogue: 0,0:47:36.94,0:47:40.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to actually make sure that the\NTor browser only has the exact
Dialogue: 0,0:47:40.69,0:47:43.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,set of credentials you need for the thing\Nyou’re doing at that time.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:43.98,0:47:46.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that’s
Dialogue: 0,0:47:46.24,0:47:48.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,incredibly straight-forward stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:48.22,0:47:49.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In terms of the hacker\Ncommunity this is like
Dialogue: 0,0:47:49.79,0:47:52.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not even really interesting, actually.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:52.41,0:47:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The thing that makes it interesting is
Dialogue: 0,0:47:53.80,0:47:55.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they do it at internet scale.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:55.92,0:47:57.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that they’re trying to watch
Dialogue: 0,0:47:57.10,0:47:59.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the entire internet all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:59.61,0:48:01.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Another interesting fact about this is
Dialogue: 0,0:48:01.11,0:48:04.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you would imagine that not\Nrouting through Five Eyes countries
Dialogue: 0,0:48:04.52,0:48:06.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would make you safer in some way.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:06.35,0:48:08.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don’t think that’s actually true.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:08.65,0:48:12.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,From what I can tell they actually\Nhave some restrictions, if you route
Dialogue: 0,0:48:12.48,0:48:13.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through the Five Eyes countries.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:13.98,0:48:16.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you are not in\Na Five Eyes country,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:16.05,0:48:20.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like Germany, they have no restrictions.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:20.23,0:48:24.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if you behave differently we know\Nfrom an anonymity perspective
Dialogue: 0,0:48:24.00,0:48:25.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that that’s worse for you.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:25.58,0:48:28.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you behave differently\Nin this particular way
Dialogue: 0,0:48:28.41,0:48:31.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then there are legal answers that\Nshow that you shouldn’t break out
Dialogue: 0,0:48:31.96,0:48:35.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the regular way that Tor\Nusers and Tor clients behave.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:35.99,0:48:39.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the key point to take home is\Nthat every single person here
Dialogue: 0,0:48:39.46,0:48:43.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has the same set of problems\Nif they’re not using Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:43.79,0:48:46.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it is easier for them.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:46.49,0:48:48.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that’s a huge,\Nhuge difference.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:48.09,0:48:53.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the last point, I think is a key one\Nwhich Roger has a great story for.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:53.24,0:48:57.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: Yeah, so they… the story\Nhere is they look at Tor traffic
Dialogue: 0,0:48:57.35,0:48:59.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming out of Tor exit relays.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:59.01,0:49:00.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They don’t know who the person is.\NAnd they have
Dialogue: 0,0:49:00.74,0:49:04.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to make a decision there: do I try the\NQuantum Insert and the Foxacid,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:04.11,0:49:06.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do I try to break into their browser?\NOr do I leave them alone.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:06.75,0:49:10.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when they see the Tor flow\Nthey don’t know who it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:10.21,0:49:11.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So on the one hand, that’s great.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:11.83,0:49:13.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They can’t do target attacks.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:13.77,0:49:15.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They have to do broad\Nattacks and then
Dialogue: 0,0:49:15.46,0:49:19.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,check/wait (?) later to see whether\Nthey broke into the right person.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:19.13,0:49:22.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But as soon as the Guardian\Narticles went up about this,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:22.52,0:49:26.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,DNI – the something National Intelligence\N– put out a press release, saying:
Dialogue: 0,0:49:26.53,0:49:32.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“We’d like to assure everybody\Nthat we never attack Americans”.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:32.20,0:49:36.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: So first of all – on behalf of\Nthe American people and the US Government
Dialogue: 0,0:49:36.36,0:49:40.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I do not represent:\NI’m so sorry that
Dialogue: 0,0:49:40.38,0:49:43.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my country keeps embarrassing the rest\Nof the reasonable Americans, of which
Dialogue: 0,0:49:43.70,0:49:48.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are plenty, many of us that are not\NJames Clapper, that total fucking asshole.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:48.25,0:49:54.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:49:54.55,0:49:55.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}to Roger:{\i0}\NWe have 5 minutes.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:55.54,0:49:57.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:49:57.43,0:50:01.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: So the reason why that story is\Nparticularly interesting is that: I talked
Dialogue: 0,0:50:01.56,0:50:05.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to an actual NSA person a couple of weeks\Nago… and I’m like: “Wait, you never attack
Dialogue: 0,0:50:05.00,0:50:09.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Americans but you have to blank-and-attack\Neverybody and then find out who it was”.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:09.05,0:50:12.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he said: “Oh no no no no, we watch\Nthem log into Facebook and if they log in
Dialogue: 0,0:50:12.69,0:50:14.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as the user we’re trying to attack\Nthen we attack them.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:14.79,0:50:15.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No problem.”
Dialogue: 0,0:50:15.79,0:50:19.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: And they do the blanket\Ndragnet surveillance. So,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:19.23,0:50:22.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an interesting point of course is that we\Nalways heard…
Dialogue: 0,0:50:22.33,0:50:23.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I once met someone
Dialogue: 0,0:50:23.57,0:50:26.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who explained to me: “The NSA obviously\Nruns lots of Tor nodes like they were
Dialogue: 0,0:50:26.50,0:50:28.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like 90.000 Tor nodes”,\NI think was the number.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:28.85,0:50:31.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wish we had 90.000 Tor nodes.\NThat’d be incredible.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:31.86,0:50:34.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know\Nwe’re like, what, at about 4..5000
Dialogue: 0,0:50:34.88,0:50:38.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at any given point in time, that are\Nstable, of which are 1/3 are exit relays.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:38.44,0:50:39.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:39.44,0:50:43.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it turns out when the NSA did\Nrun some, they ran half a dozen.. a dozen?
Dialogue: 0,0:50:43.28,0:50:44.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: They ran about 10.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:44.74,0:50:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they\Nwere small.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:45.74,0:50:46.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And short-lived.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:46.74,0:50:48.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On EC2.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:48.92,0:50:51.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that should not\Nmake you happy.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:51.40,0:50:52.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn’t matter
Dialogue: 0,0:50:52.45,0:50:54.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether the NSA runs Tor relays.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:54.88,0:50:57.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They can watch your Tor relays.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:57.61,0:51:01.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you run a Tor relay at a\Ngreat place anywhere in the US
Dialogue: 0,0:51:01.49,0:51:05.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or Germany or wherever they’re good\Nat spying on they watch the upstream
Dialogue: 0,0:51:05.60,0:51:08.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of your relay and they get almost\Nwhat they would get from running
Dialogue: 0,0:51:08.66,0:51:09.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their own relay.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:09.91,0:51:12.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what we should be\Nworried about – we should not be worried
Dialogue: 0,0:51:12.14,0:51:13.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they’re running relays.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:13.75,0:51:16.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s a concern, but the\Nbigger concern is
Dialogue: 0,0:51:16.83,0:51:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they’re watching the whole internet.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:18.36,0:51:20.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the internet is much more centralized
Dialogue: 0,0:51:20.73,0:51:22.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than we think it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:22.01,0:51:24.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are a lot more\Nbottle-necks where if you watch them
Dialogue: 0,0:51:24.32,0:51:26.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you get to see a lot of\Ndifferent Tor traffic.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:26.85,0:51:29.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the problem is not so much
Dialogue: 0,0:51:29.51,0:51:33.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Are they running relays?” as “How\Nmany normal relays can they watch?”
Dialogue: 0,0:51:33.40,0:51:37.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you’re thinking about a large\Nadversary like NSA: the answer could be:
Dialogue: 0,0:51:37.40,0:51:39.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“A third?”, “Half?”.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:39.84,0:51:42.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We don’t know\Nhow many deals they have.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:42.02,0:51:46.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: So, an interesting point here is\Nthat one-hop-proxies are… or VPN
Dialogue: 0,0:51:46.74,0:51:49.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– who here uses a VPN to some\Nkind of commercial VPN service?
Dialogue: 0,0:51:49.97,0:51:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}about 1/4 raised hands{\i0}\NRight.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:51.77,0:51:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is a pretty big problem,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:54.62,0:51:55.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:55.62,0:51:57.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is that you end up with the\Nhide-my-ass problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:57.92,0:51:58.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is that –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:58.92,0:52:00.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first of all that company, it’s a problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:00.55,0:52:01.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Second of all, what they do to their users
Dialogue: 0,0:52:01.99,0:52:03.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is also a problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:03.09,0:52:05.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is that they\Nbasically promote their service
Dialogue: 0,0:52:05.48,0:52:09.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for revolution in Egypt, e.g. but when\Nsomeone used it because they disagreed
Dialogue: 0,0:52:09.13,0:52:13.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the policies of the UK then\Nthey turned them over.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:13.37,0:52:14.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Interesting point.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:14.37,0:52:17.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We need to build decentralized systems\Nwhere they can’t make that choice.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:17.81,0:52:20.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We need to make sure that that\Nisn’t actually happening.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:20.52,0:52:21.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the things
Dialogue: 0,0:52:21.52,0:52:25.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we’re trying to drive home is\Nthat – and I really think it’s important
Dialogue: 0,0:52:25.90,0:52:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to take this to heart –\None-hop-proxies or VPNs,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:29.92,0:52:33.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as we have said for more that a\Ndecade, are not safe. Especially
Dialogue: 0,0:52:33.70,0:52:37.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you think about when they from the\NQuickANT and from the Flying Pig software,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:37.74,0:52:40.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’re recording traffic\Ninformation about connections.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:40.80,0:52:41.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in some cases
Dialogue: 0,0:52:41.80,0:52:44.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we know – thanks to Laura Poitras\Nand James Risen – that they have
Dialogue: 0,0:52:44.85,0:52:48.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Data Retention which is something\Nlike – what is it, 10..15 years,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:48.49,0:52:51.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,5 years online, 10 years\Noffline, is that right?
Dialogue: 0,0:52:51.35,0:52:54.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right. Okay.\NThat’s bad news.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:54.23,0:52:58.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We know that the math\Nfor VPNs is not in your favor.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:58.71,0:53:03.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that said: What\Nhappens with this stuff?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:03.34,0:53:04.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:04.34,0:53:08.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What happens is what happened\Ne.g. with the Silk Road fellow.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:08.02,0:53:10.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or maybe not.\NIt’s not clear.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:10.24,0:53:11.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It could be that the guy used a VPN.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:11.93,0:53:15.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is braindead.\NBut it could also be that
Dialogue: 0,0:53:15.38,0:53:19.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the NSA has this data and tried\Nto pull off a retractive attack
Dialogue: 0,0:53:19.43,0:53:23.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,once they already had him from\Nother things like auguring fake IDs.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:23.63,0:53:26.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We don’t know which in the case\Nof Silk Road.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:26.30,0:53:27.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we can tell you
Dialogue: 0,0:53:27.41,0:53:30.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it’s pretty clearly a bad\Nidea to do it if you’re going to
Dialogue: 0,0:53:30.97,0:53:31.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do something interesting.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:31.97,0:53:34.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s probably also a bad\Nidea to do it just generally
Dialogue: 0,0:53:34.72,0:53:39.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you don’t even know what\N’interesting’ is in 5 or 10 years. So
Dialogue: 0,0:53:39.03,0:53:43.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,parallel construction is a really\Nserious problem, and we think,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:43.47,0:53:46.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably, if we could expand the\NTor Network, we would make it
Dialogue: 0,0:53:46.27,0:53:47.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,significantly harder to do this.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:47.70,0:53:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It would\Nmake it significantly harder for them
Dialogue: 0,0:53:49.20,0:53:51.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do it, especially if you replace your\NVPN with Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:51.66,0:53:52.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are some trade-offs
Dialogue: 0,0:53:52.66,0:53:53.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with that, though.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:53.97,0:53:55.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the real question is\Nwhat your threat model is.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:55.76,0:53:57.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you really\Nhave to think about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:57.24,0:53:58.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then also understand\Nthat we live in a world now
Dialogue: 0,0:53:58.76,0:54:02.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where Law Enforcement and\NIntelligence Services, they seem to be
Dialogue: 0,0:54:02.80,0:54:04.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,blending together.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:04.68,0:54:07.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they seem to be blending\Ntogether across the whole planet
Dialogue: 0,0:54:07.39,0:54:08.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in secret.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:08.39,0:54:10.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is a serious problem\Nfor the threat model of Tor.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:10.42,0:54:13.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: So I actually talked to\Nsome FBI people and I said:
Dialogue: 0,0:54:13.13,0:54:15.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So which one of these is it?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:15.05,0:54:17.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they said: Well, we\Nnever get tips from the NSA.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:17.61,0:54:21.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We’re good, honest Law enforcement,\Nthey’re doing something bad,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:21.06,0:54:22.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but why should that affect us?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:22.76,0:54:25.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And my response was: “Well,\NNSA says they told you!
Dialogue: 0,0:54:25.79,0:54:29.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, are you lying\Nto me or are they lying to you?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:29.52,0:54:31.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or what’s going on here?”
Dialogue: 0,0:54:31.45,0:54:34.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I don’t actually\Nknow the right solution here.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:34.26,0:54:38.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So scenario 1: The NSA\Nanonymously tips the FBI
Dialogue: 0,0:54:38.54,0:54:40.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they go check something out and\Nthey say: “Well I need to build a case
Dialogue: 0,0:54:40.85,0:54:41.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they do”.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:41.85,0:54:44.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Scenario 2: Some anonymous\Nwhistleblower tips off the FBI
Dialogue: 0,0:54:44.73,0:54:46.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they go build a case.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:46.06,0:54:47.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,From the FBI’s perspective\Nthese are the same:
Dialogue: 0,0:54:47.72,0:54:50.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“I got a tip, I build a case.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:50.05,0:54:52.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why should I care where\Nit came from?” And
Dialogue: 0,0:54:52.26,0:54:56.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so should we build a Know-your-customer\NLaw so that the FBI has to know
Dialogue: 0,0:54:56.06,0:54:58.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their informers or whistleblowers?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:58.79,0:55:00.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Should we rely on the NSA
Dialogue: 0,0:55:00.77,0:55:01.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to regulate itself?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:01.77,0:55:05.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Should we rely\Non the Congress to regulate NSA?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:05.22,0:55:07.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,None of these are good answers.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:07.46,0:55:09.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: So, we have a very\Nlimited amount of time.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:09.25,0:55:10.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in order to be able
Dialogue: 0,0:55:10.25,0:55:14.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to address some questions we\Nwill probably skip a few things
Dialogue: 0,0:55:14.39,0:55:15.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we’ll put these slides\Nonline.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:15.69,0:55:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But short/quick
Dialogue: 0,0:55:18.15,0:55:20.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,summaries for a few of these slides, then\Nwe’re gonna address some questions.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:20.93,0:55:22.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of them is that we want to improve\NHidden Services.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:22.97,0:55:23.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Even though they
Dialogue: 0,0:55:23.97,0:55:26.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,haven’t been broken as far as we\Nunderstand from any of the documents
Dialogue: 0,0:55:26.04,0:55:27.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that have been released.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:27.59,0:55:29.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We still\Nwant to make them stronger,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:29.23,0:55:30.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we wanna be ahead of the game.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:30.76,0:55:31.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We don’t want to play Catch-Up.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:31.76,0:55:35.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: We especially need to improve\Nthe usability and performance of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:35.44,0:55:38.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because right now they’re a toy\Nthat only really dedicated people
Dialogue: 0,0:55:38.99,0:55:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get working.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:40.16,0:55:42.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the more\Nmainstream we could make them
Dialogue: 0,0:55:42.51,0:55:44.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the more broad uses we are going to see.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:44.55,0:55:46.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The reason why people keep hearing
Dialogue: 0,0:55:46.04,0:55:50.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about high-profile bad Hidden Services\Nis that we don’t have enough
Dialogue: 0,0:55:50.18,0:55:54.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,good use cases in action yet that\Nlots of people are experiencing.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:54.50,0:55:58.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: The most important thing for all of\Nthe – let’s say – Cypherpunks movement
Dialogue: 0,0:55:58.74,0:56:02.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to understand is that when\Nyou have usable crypto
Dialogue: 0,0:56:02.40,0:56:04.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you are doing the right thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:04.42,0:56:06.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When\Nyou have strong peer-reviewed
Dialogue: 0,0:56:06.33,0:56:10.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Free Software to implement that, and\Nit’s built on a platform where you can
Dialogue: 0,0:56:10.15,0:56:13.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,look at the whole stack you’re\Nreally ahead of the game.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:13.65,0:56:15.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There’s a lot to be done in that.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:15.37,0:56:17.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if we do that\Nfor Hidden Services
Dialogue: 0,0:56:17.67,0:56:22.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think we’ll have similar returns that\Nyou’ll see with other crypto projects.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:22.49,0:56:25.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: So one of the other great things in\Nthe Tor world is the number of researchers
Dialogue: 0,0:56:25.95,0:56:30.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are doing great work at evaluating\Nand improving Tor’s anonymity.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:30.82,0:56:34.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there are a couple of papers that were\Nout over the past year talking about
Dialogue: 0,0:56:34.74,0:56:39.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how we didn’t actually choose the\Nright guard rotation parameters.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:39.38,0:56:42.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I’m not going to get into that in detail\Nin our last couple of minutes.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:42.81,0:56:46.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the very brief version is:
Dialogue: 0,0:56:46.49,0:56:51.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you can attack both sides of the\Nnetwork and they run 10% of the network
Dialogue: 0,0:56:51.11,0:56:54.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– they, the adversary run 10% of the\Nnetwork – the chance over time,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:54.93,0:56:59.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the blue line is the current situation,\Nwhere you choose 3 first hops,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:59.28,0:57:02.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,3 entry guards and you rotate every\Ncouple of months – over time
Dialogue: 0,0:57:02.31,0:57:05.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the chance that you get screwed by an\Nadversary who runs 10% of the network
Dialogue: 0,0:57:05.93,0:57:07.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is pretty high.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:07.12,0:57:10.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if we change it\Nto 1 guard and you don’t rotate
Dialogue: 0,0:57:10.16,0:57:13.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then we’re at the green line which\Nis a lot better against an adversary
Dialogue: 0,0:57:13.77,0:57:15.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who’s really quite large.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:15.30,0:57:17.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is an adversary\Nlarger than torservers.net
Dialogue: 0,0:57:17.75,0:57:19.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,e.g. So A...
Dialogue: 0,0:57:19.75,0:57:21.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Arts (?) is no adversary, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:21.44,0:57:26.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: So a pretty large attacker we\Nneed to move it from the blue line
Dialogue: 0,0:57:26.51,0:57:27.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,down to the green line.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:27.76,0:57:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that’s\Nan example of the anonymity work
Dialogue: 0,0:57:30.51,0:57:31.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we need to do.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:31.51,0:57:33.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-- So, what’s next?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:33.13,0:57:35.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Tor, endorsed by Egyptian activists,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:35.42,0:57:40.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wikileaks, NSA, GCHQ, Chelsea\NManning, Edward Snowden…
Dialogue: 0,0:57:40.07,0:57:42.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Different communities like\NTor for different reasons.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:42.87,0:57:46.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some of our funders we go to them with\Nthat sentence – basically everybody
Dialogue: 0,0:57:46.06,0:57:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we go to with that sentence.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:47.12,0:57:50.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s like:\N“I like those 3 examples but I don’t like
Dialogue: 0,0:57:50.05,0:57:51.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those 2 examples”.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:51.67,0:57:55.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So part of what we\Nneed to do is help them to understand
Dialogue: 0,0:57:55.65,0:58:02.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why all of these different\Nexamples matter.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:02.03,0:58:04.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: That said, I tend to believe\Nthat we need to be engaged
Dialogue: 0,0:58:04.94,0:58:09.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a pretty big way and thanks\Nto the people of Ecuador,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:09.09,0:58:12.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially the people running the Minga-tec\Ncommunity events, they have actually
Dialogue: 0,0:58:12.80,0:58:17.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,put together a real model which\Nshould be emulated probably
Dialogue: 0,0:58:17.12,0:58:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the rest of the world where they really\Nengage with civil society, and they’re
Dialogue: 0,0:58:20.96,0:58:24.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually able to arrange for meetings\Nwith e.g. the Foreign Minister
Dialogue: 0,0:58:24.45,0:58:27.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or with various other people involved in\Nthe National Assembly.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:27.53,0:58:28.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as a result
Dialogue: 0,0:58:28.53,0:58:31.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they had Article 474, which they\Nproposed, which was basically
Dialogue: 0,0:58:31.57,0:58:33.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the worst Data Retention\NLaw you can imagine.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:33.50,0:58:35.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It included video taping
Dialogue: 0,0:58:35.05,0:58:39.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Internet Cafés, 6 months dragnet\Nsurveillance, all sorts of awful stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:39.81,0:58:43.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they were able to, in the\Ncourse of, I would say 3..6 months,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:43.32,0:58:46.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is mostly the FLOK Society,\Nactually.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:46.21,0:58:47.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They were able to organize
Dialogue: 0,0:58:47.21,0:58:49.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a real discussion about this.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:49.19,0:58:50.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we\Nwere able to get this proposed part
Dialogue: 0,0:58:50.88,0:58:53.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the penal code completely removed.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:53.01,0:58:54.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the end of November of last year…
Dialogue: 0,0:58:54.54,0:58:56.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,early December… of this year.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:56.58,0:58:58.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So just about a month ago.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:58.29,0:59:01.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if we really work together\Nacross the spectrum,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:01.62,0:59:06.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we see, right now, in Ecuador\Ne.g. changing (?) away
Dialogue: 0,0:59:06.03,0:59:09.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by showing them that fundamentally:\Nthe game is rigged.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:09.25,0:59:10.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you choose
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.25,0:59:12.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to spy on your citizens then the NSA\Nalways wins.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:12.66,0:59:13.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the NSA wants people
Dialogue: 0,0:59:13.79,0:59:16.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to believe that everybody is doing\Nthe spying.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:16.39,0:59:17.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So one of the things
Dialogue: 0,0:59:17.39,0:59:20.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I explained to people in the Ecuadorian\NGovernment and in Ecuadorian civil society
Dialogue: 0,0:59:20.75,0:59:23.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that you can choose a different game.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:23.14,0:59:24.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can choose not to play that game.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:24.49,0:59:28.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The only people that win when you\Nchoose that game are the NSA,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:28.89,0:59:30.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and potentially you\N– a few times.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:30.90,0:59:31.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the NSA will get
Dialogue: 0,0:59:31.90,0:59:34.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whatever data you\Nhave stored away.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:34.62,0:59:35.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you want to be secure
Dialogue: 0,0:59:35.62,0:59:38.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against the dragnet surveillance, if\Nyou want to be secure against people
Dialogue: 0,0:59:38.36,0:59:41.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who will break into that system you\Nmust not have that system in existence.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:41.72,0:59:43.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You must choose a different paradigm.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:43.64,0:59:45.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when I told this to people in Ecuador
Dialogue: 0,0:59:45.35,0:59:47.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they understood the trade-offs,\Nand they understood that they are
Dialogue: 0,0:59:47.77,0:59:50.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not the best at surveilling\Nthe whole planet.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:50.67,0:59:51.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They understood that they’re
Dialogue: 0,0:59:51.67,0:59:53.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not the best in internet security yet.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:53.35,0:59:55.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They realized that the game is rigged.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:55.57,0:59:58.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they got rid of Article\N474 from the penal code.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:58.29,1:00:02.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there is no Data Retention\Nthere in that penal code now.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:02.03,1:00:10.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:00:10.31,1:00:14.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I have to stress this not\Nbecause of 1 or 2 or 10 people,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:14.55,1:00:17.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s because of a broad\Ncivil society movement.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:17.26,1:00:18.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is what we’ve also seen
Dialogue: 0,1:00:18.45,1:00:20.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Germany, and in other places.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:20.84,1:00:23.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is something which you\Nshould have a lot of hope about.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:23.13,1:00:25.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s not actually\Ndark everywhere.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:25.59,1:00:28.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are actually making\Npositive steps forward.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:28.54,1:00:31.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: So there are other tools\Nthat we would like help with.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:31.67,1:00:35.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,E.g. tails is a live CD, WiNoN and\Nother approaches are trying
Dialogue: 0,1:00:35.67,1:00:40.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to add VM to it, so that even if\Nyou can break out of the browser,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:40.26,1:00:43.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s something else you have\Nto break out, other sandboxes.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:43.41,1:00:44.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are
Dialogue: 0,1:00:44.41,1:00:47.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of other crypto improvements that\Nwe’re happy to talk about afterwards.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:47.09,1:00:50.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Tor Browser Bundle, the new one, has\Na bunch of really interesting features.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:50.86,1:00:53.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Deterministic Builds is\None of the coolest parts of it.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:53.48,1:00:54.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where everybody here can
Dialogue: 0,1:00:54.48,1:00:57.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,build the Tor Browser Bundle and end up\Nwith an identical binary.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:57.94,1:00:58.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that you can
Dialogue: 0,1:00:58.94,1:01:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,check to see that it\Nreally is the same one.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:01.44,1:01:02.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And here’s a screenshot
Dialogue: 0,1:01:02.55,1:01:03.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the new one.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:03.55,1:01:06.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It no longer has\NVidalia in it, it’s all just a browser
Dialogue: 0,1:01:06.88,1:01:11.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a Firefox extension that\Nhas a Tor binary and starts it.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:11.05,1:01:14.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we’re trying to stream-line it\Nand make it a lot simpler and safer.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:14.51,1:01:18.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I’d love to chat with you afterwards about\Nthe core Tor things that we’re up to
Dialogue: 0,1:01:18.89,1:01:22.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of building the actual program\Ncalled Tor but also the Browser Bundle,
Dialogue: 0,1:01:22.31,1:01:25.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and metrics, and censorship\Nresistance etc.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:25.59,1:01:30.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, as a final note:\NWe accept Bitcoin now.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:30.02,1:01:34.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is great.\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:01:34.84,1:01:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: So all of the Bitcoin\Nmillionaires in this community:
Dialogue: 0,1:01:37.36,1:01:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we would really encourage you to help us\Nget off of the US Government funding.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:41.76,1:01:43.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Don’t just complain, help us!
Dialogue: 0,1:01:43.08,1:01:45.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mutual Aid\Nand Solidarity means exactly that:
Dialogue: 0,1:01:45.93,1:01:47.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to put some money where\Nyour mouth is!
Dialogue: 0,1:01:47.96,1:01:49.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We’d really like to do that.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:49.76,1:01:53.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it’s really important to show people\Nthat we have alternative methods
Dialogue: 0,1:01:53.51,1:01:55.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of funding community-based\Nprojects.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:55.33,1:01:56.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So think about it
Dialogue: 0,1:01:56.69,1:01:59.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you can, if you’d like, use Bitcoin.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:59.79,1:02:04.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Roger: A last, right now, BitPay is\Nlimiting you to 1000 Dollars of Bitcoin
Dialogue: 0,1:02:04.03,1:02:05.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,per donation.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:05.18,1:02:07.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We’re hoping to lift\Nthat in the next couple of days.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:07.55,1:02:12.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if you would like to give us lots of\NBitcoins, please don’t get discouraged.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:12.62,1:02:16.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, as a final note: starting\Nright now in Noisy Square
Dialogue: 0,1:02:16.40,1:02:20.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is an event on how to help Tor and there\Nwill be a lot of Tor people there,
Dialogue: 0,1:02:20.72,1:02:24.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we’d love to help teach you\Nand answer your questions
Dialogue: 0,1:02:24.24,1:02:26.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and help you become part of the community.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:26.33,1:02:28.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We need you to teach other people
Dialogue: 0,1:02:28.73,1:02:30.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why Tor is important.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:30.92,1:02:32.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jacob: Thank you!
Dialogue: 0,1:02:32.23,1:02:38.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:02:38.54,1:02:40.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}no time for Q&A left{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:02:40.81,1:02:44.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,*Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2016.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:44.29,1:02:47.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Join and help us!*