0:00:00.365,0:00:02.372
What I want to talk to you about today

0:00:02.396,0:00:06.976
is some of the problems that the military[br]of the Western world --

0:00:07.000,0:00:09.737
Australia, United States,[br]the UK and so on --

0:00:09.761,0:00:12.891
face in some of the deployments[br]that they're dealing with

0:00:12.915,0:00:14.819
in the modern world at this time.

0:00:14.843,0:00:16.667
If you think about the sorts of things

0:00:16.691,0:00:19.788
we've sent Australian military[br]personnel to in recent years,

0:00:19.812,0:00:22.205
we've got obvious things[br]like Iraq and Afghanistan,

0:00:22.229,0:00:25.397
but you've also got things like[br]East Timor and the Solomon Islands,

0:00:25.421,0:00:26.574
and so on.

0:00:26.598,0:00:28.034
And a lot of these deployments

0:00:28.058,0:00:31.192
that we're sending[br]military personnel to these days

0:00:31.216,0:00:32.895
aren't traditional wars.

0:00:33.353,0:00:37.440
In fact, a lot of the jobs[br]we're asking military personnel to do

0:00:37.464,0:00:38.615
in those situations

0:00:38.639,0:00:42.215
are ones that, in their own countries --[br]Australia, the US and so on --

0:00:42.239,0:00:44.608
would actually be done by police officers.

0:00:44.632,0:00:46.660
So there's a bunch[br]of problems that come up

0:00:46.684,0:00:48.692
for military personnel[br]in these situations,

0:00:48.716,0:00:51.967
because they're doing things[br]they haven't really been trained for.

0:00:51.991,0:00:56.803
And they're doing things that those[br]who do them in their own countries

0:00:56.827,0:01:00.482
are trained very differently for[br]and equipped very differently for.

0:01:00.506,0:01:04.169
Now, there's a bunch of reasons[br]why we send military personnel,

0:01:04.193,0:01:06.026
rather than police, to do these jobs.

0:01:06.415,0:01:08.976
If Australia had to send[br]1,000 people tomorrow

0:01:09.000,0:01:11.775
to West Papua, for example,

0:01:11.799,0:01:15.626
we don't have 1,000 police officers[br]hanging around that could go tomorrow,

0:01:15.650,0:01:17.808
and we do have[br]1,000 soldiers that could go.

0:01:18.251,0:01:20.911
So when we have to send someone,[br]we send the military --

0:01:20.935,0:01:22.512
they're there, they're available,

0:01:22.536,0:01:25.269
and heck, they're used to going off[br]and doing these things

0:01:25.293,0:01:26.536
and living by themselves

0:01:26.560,0:01:28.398
and not having all this extra support.

0:01:28.422,0:01:31.082
So they are able to do it in that sense.

0:01:31.106,0:01:33.936
But they aren't trained[br]the same way police officers are,

0:01:33.960,0:01:36.956
and they're certainly not equipped[br]the way police officers are,

0:01:36.980,0:01:39.172
so this has raised[br]a bunch of problems for them

0:01:39.196,0:01:40.682
when dealing with these issues.

0:01:40.706,0:01:44.064
One particular thing that's come up[br]that I am especially interested in,

0:01:44.088,0:01:45.715
is the question of whether,

0:01:45.739,0:01:48.779
when we're sending military personnel[br]to do these sorts of jobs,

0:01:48.803,0:01:50.833
we ought to be equipping them differently;

0:01:50.857,0:01:53.722
and in particular, whether we ought[br]to be giving them access

0:01:53.746,0:01:56.162
to some of the nonlethal weapons[br]that police have.

0:01:56.186,0:01:58.265
Since they're doing some of the same jobs,

0:01:58.289,0:02:00.347
maybe they should have[br]some of those things.

0:02:00.371,0:02:04.070
And there's a range of places you'd think[br]those things would be really useful.

0:02:04.094,0:02:06.677
For example, when you've got[br]military checkpoints.

0:02:06.701,0:02:08.716
If people are approaching[br]these checkpoints

0:02:08.740,0:02:12.365
and the military personnel are unsure[br]if this person's hostile or not,

0:02:12.389,0:02:14.743
say this person approaching[br]here, and they say,

0:02:14.767,0:02:16.363
"Is this a suicide bomber or not?

0:02:16.387,0:02:18.353
Is something hidden under their clothes?

0:02:18.377,0:02:19.531
What's going to happen?"

0:02:19.555,0:02:21.807
They don't know if the person[br]is hostile or not.

0:02:21.831,0:02:25.218
If the person doesn't follow directions,[br]they may end up shooting them,

0:02:25.242,0:02:28.457
and then find out afterwards[br]either, yes, we shot the right person,

0:02:28.481,0:02:30.426
or, no, this was just an innocent person

0:02:30.450,0:02:32.582
who didn't understand what was going on.

0:02:32.606,0:02:35.212
So if they had nonlethal weapons,[br]then they would say,

0:02:35.236,0:02:37.263
"We can use them[br]in that sort of situation.

0:02:37.287,0:02:39.175
If we shoot someone who wasn't hostile,

0:02:39.199,0:02:41.048
at least we haven't killed them."

0:02:41.072,0:02:44.327
Another situation: this photo[br]is from one of the missions

0:02:44.351,0:02:46.144
in the Balkans in the late 1990s.

0:02:46.765,0:02:48.742
This situation is a little bit different,

0:02:48.766,0:02:50.727
where maybe they know someone is hostile;

0:02:50.751,0:02:52.469
they've got someone shooting at them

0:02:52.493,0:02:54.690
or doing something else[br]that's clearly hostile,

0:02:54.714,0:02:55.946
throwing rocks, whatever.

0:02:55.970,0:02:57.121
But if they respond,

0:02:57.145,0:03:00.138
there's a range of other people around[br]who are innocent people,

0:03:00.162,0:03:01.317
who might also get hurt.

0:03:01.341,0:03:02.568
It'd be collateral damage

0:03:02.592,0:03:05.309
that the military[br]often doesn't want to talk about.

0:03:05.333,0:03:08.092
So again, they'd say, "With access[br]to nonlethal weapons,

0:03:08.116,0:03:10.049
if we've got someone we know is hostile,

0:03:10.073,0:03:11.906
we can do something to deal with them,

0:03:11.930,0:03:13.692
and know that if we hit anyone else,

0:03:13.716,0:03:15.667
at least we're not going to kill them."

0:03:16.091,0:03:17.527
Another suggestion has been,

0:03:17.551,0:03:19.838
since we're putting so many[br]robots in the field,

0:03:19.862,0:03:21.132
we can see the time coming

0:03:21.156,0:03:24.024
where they're actually going[br]to send robots out in the field

0:03:24.048,0:03:25.202
that are autonomous.

0:03:25.226,0:03:28.705
They'll make their own decisions[br]about who to shoot and who not to shoot,

0:03:28.729,0:03:30.071
without a human in the loop.

0:03:30.095,0:03:31.407
So the suggestion is,

0:03:31.431,0:03:34.545
if we're going to send robots out[br]and allow them to do this,

0:03:34.569,0:03:38.827
maybe it would be a good idea[br]if they were armed with nonlethal weapons,

0:03:38.851,0:03:41.964
so if the robot makes a bad decision[br]and shoots the wrong person,

0:03:41.988,0:03:44.066
again, they haven't actually killed them.

0:03:44.632,0:03:47.848
Now, there's a whole range[br]of different sorts of nonlethal weapons,

0:03:47.872,0:03:49.473
some of which are available now,

0:03:49.497,0:03:51.089
some of which they're developing.

0:03:51.113,0:03:53.391
You've got traditional things[br]like pepper spray,

0:03:53.415,0:03:54.896
OC spray up at the top there,

0:03:54.920,0:03:56.774
or Tasers over here.

0:03:56.798,0:03:59.950
The one on the top right here[br]is actually a dazzling laser,

0:03:59.974,0:04:02.589
intended to just blind[br]the person momentarily

0:04:02.613,0:04:04.223
and disorient them.

0:04:04.247,0:04:06.239
You've got nonlethal shotgun rounds

0:04:06.263,0:04:09.682
that contain rubber pellets[br]instead of the traditional metal ones.

0:04:09.706,0:04:12.289
And this one in the middle[br]here, the large truck,

0:04:12.313,0:04:14.683
is called the Active Denial System,

0:04:14.707,0:04:17.327
something the US military[br]is working on at the moment.

0:04:17.351,0:04:20.327
It's essentially a big[br]microwave transmitter.

0:04:20.794,0:04:23.145
It's sort of your classic[br]idea of a heat ray.

0:04:23.947,0:04:26.576
It goes out to a really long distance,

0:04:26.600,0:04:28.839
compared to any of these[br]other sorts of things.

0:04:28.863,0:04:32.689
Anybody who is hit with this[br]feels a sudden burst of heat,

0:04:32.713,0:04:34.824
and just wants to get out of the way.

0:04:34.848,0:04:37.472
It is a lot more sophisticated[br]than a microwave oven,

0:04:37.496,0:04:40.378
but it basically is boiling[br]the water molecules

0:04:40.402,0:04:42.354
in the very surface level of your skin.

0:04:42.378,0:04:44.124
So you feel this massive heat,

0:04:44.148,0:04:46.560
and you go, "I want[br]to get out of the way."

0:04:46.584,0:04:48.564
And they think this will be really useful

0:04:48.588,0:04:51.733
in places where we need to clear[br]a crowd out of a particular area,

0:04:51.757,0:04:53.206
if the crowd is being hostile.

0:04:53.230,0:04:55.841
If we need to keep people[br]away from a particular place,

0:04:55.865,0:04:57.911
we can do that with these sorts of things.

0:04:58.360,0:05:01.397
So there's a whole range[br]of different nonlethal weapons

0:05:01.421,0:05:03.361
we could give military personnel,

0:05:03.385,0:05:05.292
and there's a whole range of situations

0:05:05.316,0:05:07.269
where they're looking at them and saying,

0:05:07.293,0:05:09.128
"These things would be really useful."

0:05:09.152,0:05:10.556
But as I said,

0:05:10.580,0:05:13.569
the military and the police[br]are very different.

0:05:13.593,0:05:14.625
(Laughter)

0:05:14.649,0:05:17.380
Yes, you don't have to look[br]very hard at this to recognize

0:05:17.404,0:05:19.172
that they might be very different.

0:05:19.196,0:05:20.466
In particular,

0:05:20.490,0:05:22.170
the attitude to the use of force

0:05:22.194,0:05:24.262
and the way they're trained to use force

0:05:24.286,0:05:25.866
is especially different.

0:05:26.976,0:05:28.576
The police --

0:05:28.600,0:05:31.612
and knowing because I've actually[br]helped to train police --

0:05:31.636,0:05:34.374
police, particularly[br]in Western jurisdictions at least,

0:05:34.398,0:05:38.241
are trained to De-escalate force,

0:05:38.265,0:05:41.210
to try and avoid using force[br]wherever possible,

0:05:41.234,0:05:45.698
and to use lethal force[br]only as an absolute last resort.

0:05:46.441,0:05:49.017
Military personnel[br]are being trained for war.

0:05:49.600,0:05:52.687
So they're trained that,[br]as soon as things go bad,

0:05:52.711,0:05:55.231
their first response is lethal force.

0:05:56.400,0:05:59.468
The moment the fecal matter[br]hits the rotating turbine --

0:05:59.492,0:06:00.524
(Laughter)

0:06:00.548,0:06:02.769
you can start shooting at people.

0:06:03.753,0:06:05.576
So their attitudes

0:06:05.600,0:06:07.993
to the use of lethal force[br]are very different,

0:06:08.017,0:06:09.636
and I think it's fairly obvious

0:06:09.660,0:06:12.576
that their attitude to the use[br]of nonlethal weapons

0:06:12.600,0:06:15.695
would also be very different[br]from what it is with the police.

0:06:16.177,0:06:18.278
And since we've already had[br]so many problems

0:06:18.302,0:06:20.923
with police use of nonlethal[br]weapons in various ways,

0:06:20.947,0:06:24.025
I thought it would be a good idea[br]to look at some of those things

0:06:24.049,0:06:25.870
and relate it to the military context.

0:06:25.894,0:06:29.576
I was very surprised when I started[br]to do this to see that, in fact,

0:06:29.600,0:06:33.231
even the people who advocated the use[br]of nonlethal weapons by the military

0:06:33.255,0:06:34.576
hadn't actually done that.

0:06:34.600,0:06:36.129
They generally seemed to think,

0:06:36.153,0:06:38.705
"Why would we care[br]what's happened with the police?

0:06:38.729,0:06:40.551
We're looking at something different,"

0:06:40.575,0:06:41.987
and didn't seem to recognize

0:06:42.011,0:06:44.458
they were looking at pretty[br]much the same stuff.

0:06:44.482,0:06:47.266
So I started to investigate[br]some of those issues,

0:06:47.290,0:06:51.043
and have a look at the way[br]police use nonlethal weapons

0:06:51.067,0:06:52.225
when they're introduced,

0:06:52.249,0:06:55.576
and some of the problems that might[br]arise out of those sorts of things

0:06:55.600,0:06:57.627
when they actually do introduce them.

0:06:57.651,0:07:00.210
And of course, being Australian,

0:07:00.234,0:07:04.002
I started looking at stuff in Australia,[br]knowing from my own experience

0:07:04.026,0:07:07.842
of various times when nonlethal weapons[br]have been introduced in Australia.

0:07:07.866,0:07:11.332
One of the things I particularly[br]looked at was the use of OC spray --

0:07:11.356,0:07:13.869
oleoresin capsicum spray, pepper spray --

0:07:13.893,0:07:15.825
by Australian police,

0:07:15.849,0:07:18.660
and seeing what had happened[br]when that had been introduced,

0:07:18.684,0:07:20.163
and those sorts of issues.

0:07:20.187,0:07:23.293
And one study that I found,[br]a particularly interesting one,

0:07:23.317,0:07:25.214
was in Queensland,

0:07:25.238,0:07:28.663
because they had a trial period[br]for the use of pepper spray

0:07:28.687,0:07:31.137
before they actually[br]introduced it more broadly.

0:07:31.732,0:07:34.581
And I went and had a look[br]at some of the figures here.

0:07:34.605,0:07:37.112
Now, when they introduced[br]OC spray in Queensland,

0:07:37.136,0:07:38.708
they were really explicit.

0:07:38.732,0:07:42.228
The police minister's and a heap[br]of public statements were made about it.

0:07:42.252,0:07:45.645
They were saying, "This is explicitly[br]intended to give police an option

0:07:45.669,0:07:47.788
between shouting and shooting.

0:07:48.858,0:07:51.576
This is something they can use[br]instead of a firearm

0:07:51.600,0:07:54.869
in situations where they would have[br]previously had to shoot someone."

0:07:54.893,0:07:57.576
So I looked at all[br]of the police shooting figures.

0:07:57.600,0:07:59.696
And you can't actually[br]find them very easily

0:07:59.720,0:08:01.576
for individual Australian states;

0:08:01.600,0:08:03.116
I could only find these.

0:08:03.140,0:08:05.939
This is from an Australian Institute[br]of Criminology report.

0:08:05.963,0:08:07.971
You can see, in the fine print at the top:

0:08:07.995,0:08:11.220
"Police shooting deaths"[br]means not just people shot by police,

0:08:11.244,0:08:14.274
but people who have shot themselves[br]in the presence of police.

0:08:14.298,0:08:16.749
But these are the figures[br]across the entire country,

0:08:16.773,0:08:19.877
and the red arrow represents[br]the point where Queensland said,

0:08:19.901,0:08:21.795
"Yes, this is where we're going to give

0:08:21.819,0:08:23.959
all police officers[br]across the entire state

0:08:23.983,0:08:25.486
access to OC spray."

0:08:25.510,0:08:28.576
So you can see there were six deaths[br]sort of leading up to it,

0:08:28.600,0:08:30.671
every year for a number of years.

0:08:30.695,0:08:32.576
There was a spike a few years before,

0:08:32.600,0:08:34.442
but that wasn't actually Queensland.

0:08:34.466,0:08:36.097
Anyone know where that was?

0:08:36.121,0:08:37.742
Wasn't Port Arthur, no.

0:08:37.766,0:08:39.844
Victoria? Yes, correct.

0:08:39.868,0:08:41.845
That spike was all Victoria.

0:08:41.869,0:08:43.020
(Laughter)

0:08:43.044,0:08:45.608
So it wasn't that Queensland[br]had a particular problem

0:08:45.632,0:08:48.327
with deaths from police[br]shootings and so on.

0:08:48.351,0:08:50.764
So, six shootings[br]across the whole country,

0:08:50.788,0:08:52.825
fairly consistently over the years before.

0:08:52.849,0:08:55.801
The next two years were the years[br]they studied -- 2001, 2002.

0:08:55.825,0:08:58.737
Anyone want to take a stab[br]at the number of times,

0:08:58.761,0:09:00.417
given how they've introduced this,

0:09:00.441,0:09:03.909
the number of times police in Queensland[br]used OC spray in that period?

0:09:03.933,0:09:06.039
Hundreds? One? Three?

0:09:06.425,0:09:07.944
A thousand is getting better.

0:09:10.471,0:09:14.457
Explicitly introduced as an alternative[br]to the use of lethal force --

0:09:14.481,0:09:17.195
an alternative between[br]shouting and shooting.

0:09:17.219,0:09:19.196
I'm going to go out on a limb here

0:09:19.220,0:09:22.508
and say that if Queensland police[br]didn't have OC spray,

0:09:22.532,0:09:25.313
they wouldn't have shot 2,226 people

0:09:25.337,0:09:26.708
in those two years.

0:09:26.732,0:09:27.931
(Laughter)

0:09:29.222,0:09:32.421
In fact, if you have a look[br]at the studies they were looking at,

0:09:32.445,0:09:35.727
the material they were[br]collecting and examining,

0:09:35.751,0:09:40.363
you can see the suspects were only armed[br]in about 15 percent of cases

0:09:40.387,0:09:41.964
where OC spray was used.

0:09:42.819,0:09:45.457
It was routinely being[br]used in this period,

0:09:45.481,0:09:47.600
and, of course, still is routinely used --

0:09:47.624,0:09:50.006
because there were no complaints about it,

0:09:50.030,0:09:53.128
not within the context[br]of this study, anyway --

0:09:53.152,0:09:56.964
it was routinely being used[br]to deal with people who were violent,

0:09:56.988,0:09:58.691
who were potentially violent,

0:09:58.715,0:10:01.032
and also quite frequently used

0:10:01.056,0:10:04.207
to deal with people who were[br]simply passively noncompliant.

0:10:06.222,0:10:08.307
This person is not doing anything violent,

0:10:08.331,0:10:10.416
but they just won't do[br]what we want them to.

0:10:10.440,0:10:12.953
They're not obeying[br]the directions we're giving them,

0:10:12.977,0:10:16.129
so we'll give them a shot[br]of the OC spray -- that'll speed them up.

0:10:16.153,0:10:18.222
Everything will work out better that way.

0:10:18.704,0:10:21.108
This was something explicitly introduced

0:10:21.132,0:10:22.964
to be an alternative to firearms,

0:10:22.988,0:10:24.965
but it's being routinely used

0:10:24.989,0:10:27.973
to deal with a whole range[br]of other sorts of problems.

0:10:28.466,0:10:30.790
Now one of the particular[br]issues that comes up

0:10:30.814,0:10:33.576
with military use of nonlethal weapons --

0:10:33.600,0:10:36.519
and people actually say,[br]"There might be some problems" --

0:10:36.543,0:10:39.576
there's a couple of particular[br]problems that get focused on.

0:10:39.961,0:10:45.112
One of those problems is: nonlethal[br]weapons may be used indiscriminately.

0:10:45.136,0:10:48.357
One of the fundamental principles[br]of military use of force

0:10:48.381,0:10:50.149
is that you have to be discriminate;

0:10:50.173,0:10:52.926
you have to be careful[br]about who you're shooting at.

0:10:52.950,0:10:55.576
So one of the problems suggested[br]with nonlethal weapons

0:10:55.600,0:10:57.791
is that they might be used[br]indiscriminately --

0:10:57.815,0:11:00.451
that you would use them[br]against a whole range of people,

0:11:00.475,0:11:02.780
because you don't have[br]to worry so much anymore.

0:11:02.804,0:11:06.415
And in fact, one particular instance[br]where I think that actually happens

0:11:06.439,0:11:09.297
was the Dubrovka Theater[br]siege in Moscow in 2002,

0:11:09.321,0:11:12.336
which probably a lot of you,[br]unlike most of my students at ADFA,

0:11:12.360,0:11:13.953
are old enough to remember.

0:11:13.977,0:11:16.738
So, Chechens had come in[br]and taken control of the theater.

0:11:16.762,0:11:20.070
They were holding something[br]like 700 people hostage.

0:11:20.094,0:11:21.724
They'd released a bunch of people,

0:11:21.748,0:11:24.114
but they still had[br]about 700 people hostage.

0:11:24.138,0:11:29.576
And the Russian military police[br]special forces, "Spetsnaz,"

0:11:29.600,0:11:31.576
came in and stormed the theater.

0:11:31.600,0:11:35.043
The way they did it was to pump[br]the whole thing full of anesthetic gas.

0:11:35.067,0:11:39.669
And it turned out[br]that lots of the hostages died

0:11:39.693,0:11:41.608
as a result of inhaling the gas.

0:11:42.481,0:11:44.576
It was used indiscriminately.

0:11:44.600,0:11:46.997
They pumped the whole theater[br]full of the gas.

0:11:47.489,0:11:50.179
And it's no surprise that people died,

0:11:50.203,0:11:53.576
because you don't know how much gas[br]each person is going to inhale,

0:11:53.600,0:11:57.495
what position they'll fall in when[br]they become unconscious, and so on.

0:11:57.519,0:12:00.576
There were, in fact,[br]only a couple of people who got shot

0:12:00.600,0:12:02.044
in this episode.

0:12:02.600,0:12:04.576
So when they had a look at it afterward,

0:12:04.600,0:12:07.542
there were only a couple of people[br]who'd apparently been shot,

0:12:07.566,0:12:10.442
by the hostage takers[br]or by the police forces

0:12:10.466,0:12:12.472
trying to deal with the situation.

0:12:12.496,0:12:14.203
Virtually everybody that got killed

0:12:14.227,0:12:16.648
got killed from inhaling the gas.

0:12:17.123,0:12:20.451
The final toll of hostages[br]is a little unclear,

0:12:20.475,0:12:22.403
but it's certainly a few more than that,

0:12:22.427,0:12:24.716
because other people died[br]over the next few days.

0:12:24.740,0:12:26.787
So this was one problem they talked about,

0:12:26.811,0:12:28.675
that it might be used indiscriminately.

0:12:28.699,0:12:30.944
A second problem[br]people sometimes talk about

0:12:30.968,0:12:32.936
with military use of nonlethal weapons --

0:12:32.960,0:12:35.839
and it's actually why,[br]in the chemical weapons convention,

0:12:35.863,0:12:38.436
it's very clear that you can't use[br]riot-control agents

0:12:38.460,0:12:39.749
as weapons of warfare --

0:12:39.773,0:12:43.802
is that it's seen that sometimes[br]nonlethal weapons might be used

0:12:43.826,0:12:45.747
not as an alternative to lethal force,

0:12:45.771,0:12:48.047
but as a lethal force multiplier:

0:12:48.714,0:12:50.655
that you use nonlethal weapons first,

0:12:50.679,0:12:53.655
so your lethal weapons[br]will actually be more effective.

0:12:54.157,0:12:57.513
The people you'll be shooting at[br]won't be able to get out of the way.

0:12:57.537,0:13:00.930
They won't be aware of what's happening,[br]and you can kill them better.

0:13:00.954,0:13:02.986
And that's exactly what happened here.

0:13:03.691,0:13:06.747
The hostage takers who had[br]been rendered unconscious by the gas

0:13:06.771,0:13:08.189
were not taken into custody;

0:13:08.213,0:13:09.912
they were simply shot in the head.

0:13:11.531,0:13:15.576
So this nonlethal weapon[br]was being used in this case

0:13:15.600,0:13:18.576
as a lethal force multiplier,

0:13:18.600,0:13:22.049
to make killing more effective[br]in this particular situation.

0:13:23.440,0:13:25.821
Another problem I want to quickly mention

0:13:25.845,0:13:28.075
is that there's a whole heap of problems

0:13:28.099,0:13:31.576
with the way people are actually[br]taught to use nonlethal weapons,

0:13:31.600,0:13:34.133
and get trained about them[br]and then tested and so on.

0:13:34.157,0:13:37.032
Because they're tested[br]in nice, safe environments,

0:13:37.056,0:13:39.693
and are taught to use them[br]in nice, safe environments --

0:13:39.717,0:13:43.002
like this, where you can see[br]exactly what's going on.

0:13:43.026,0:13:45.801
The person spraying the OC spray[br]is wearing a rubber glove

0:13:45.825,0:13:48.267
to make sure they don't get[br]contaminated, and so on.

0:13:48.291,0:13:49.902
But they're never used like that.

0:13:49.926,0:13:52.094
They're used out in the real world,

0:13:52.118,0:13:54.452
like in Texas, like this:

0:13:54.476,0:13:57.066
["Police Taser Great-Grandmother[br]During Traffic Stop"]

0:13:57.090,0:14:00.576
I confess, this particular case[br]was one that piqued my interest in this.

0:14:00.600,0:14:03.048
It happened while I was working[br]as a research fellow

0:14:03.072,0:14:04.260
at the US Naval Academy.

0:14:04.284,0:14:07.261
News reports started[br]coming up about this situation,

0:14:07.285,0:14:09.685
where this woman was arguing[br]with a police officer.

0:14:09.709,0:14:11.092
She wasn't violent.

0:14:11.116,0:14:14.029
In fact, he was probably[br]six inches taller than me,

0:14:14.053,0:14:15.591
and she was about this tall.

0:14:16.372,0:14:18.079
And eventually she said to him,

0:14:18.103,0:14:20.204
"Well, I'm going to get back in my car."

0:14:20.228,0:14:23.370
And he says, "If you get back[br]in your car, I'm going to tase you."

0:14:23.394,0:14:26.514
And she says, "Oh, go ahead.[br]Tase me." And so he does.

0:14:26.538,0:14:28.553
And it's all captured by the video camera

0:14:28.577,0:14:31.234
running in the front of the police car.

0:14:32.176,0:14:34.318
So, she's 72.

0:14:35.072,0:14:38.526
And it's seen that this is the most[br]appropriate way of dealing with her.

0:14:38.550,0:14:41.675
And there are other examples[br]of the same sorts of things,

0:14:41.699,0:14:42.865
where you think,

0:14:42.889,0:14:46.219
"Is this really an appropriate way[br]to use nonlethal weapons?"

0:14:46.243,0:14:48.875
"Police Chief Fires Taser[br]into 14 year old Girl's Head."

0:14:48.899,0:14:51.463
"She was running away.[br]What else was I suppose to do?"

0:14:51.487,0:14:53.709
(Laughter)

0:14:53.733,0:14:55.001
Or Florida:

0:14:55.693,0:14:58.503
"Police Taser 6-year-old[br]Boy at Elementary School."

0:14:58.527,0:15:02.264
And they clearly learned a lot from it,[br]because in the same district:

0:15:02.288,0:15:04.929
"Police Review Policy[br]After Children Shocked:

0:15:04.953,0:15:07.660
2nd Child Shocked by Taser[br]Stun Gun Within Weeks."

0:15:07.684,0:15:09.644
Same police district.

0:15:09.668,0:15:12.853
Another child within weeks[br]of Tasering the six-year-old boy.

0:15:12.877,0:15:16.362
Just in case you think it's only going[br]to happen in the United States,

0:15:16.386,0:15:18.204
it happened in Canada as well:

0:15:18.228,0:15:19.774
["Mounties Zap 11-year-old Boy"]

0:15:19.798,0:15:21.908
And a colleague sent me[br]this one from London:

0:15:21.932,0:15:23.802
["Arrested Man, 82, Shot with Taser"]

0:15:23.826,0:15:28.237
But my personal favorite,[br]I have to confess, does come from the US:

0:15:28.261,0:15:31.553
"Officers Taser 86-year-old[br]Disabled Woman in her Bed."

0:15:31.577,0:15:33.783
(Laughter)

0:15:33.807,0:15:35.911
I checked the reports on this one.

0:15:35.935,0:15:38.009
I looked at it. I was really surprised.

0:15:38.033,0:15:42.201
Apparently, she took up a more[br]threatening position in her bed.

0:15:42.225,0:15:43.915
(Laughter)

0:15:43.939,0:15:45.988
I kid you not,[br]that's exactly what it said:

0:15:46.012,0:15:48.999
"She took up a more threatening[br]position in her bed."

0:15:49.366,0:15:50.682
OK.

0:15:50.706,0:15:52.151
But I'd remind you --

0:15:52.175,0:15:54.691
I'm talking about military[br]uses of nonlethal weapons,

0:15:54.715,0:15:55.873
so why is this relevant?

0:15:55.897,0:15:59.119
Because police are actually[br]more restrained in the use of force

0:15:59.143,0:16:00.610
than the military are.

0:16:00.634,0:16:03.320
They're trained to be more[br]restrained in the use of force

0:16:03.344,0:16:04.514
than the military are.

0:16:04.538,0:16:07.080
They're trained to think more,[br]to try and De-escalate.

0:16:07.104,0:16:09.451
So if you have these problems[br]with police officers

0:16:09.475,0:16:10.641
with nonlethal weapons,

0:16:10.665,0:16:12.308
what on earth would make you think

0:16:12.332,0:16:14.847
it's going to be better[br]with military personnel?

0:16:15.474,0:16:17.907
The last thing that I would like to say:

0:16:18.772,0:16:20.209
When I'm talking to the police

0:16:20.233,0:16:22.773
about what a perfect nonlethal[br]weapon would look like,

0:16:22.797,0:16:24.811
they almost inevitably say the same thing.

0:16:24.835,0:16:27.517
They say, "It's got to be something[br]that's nasty enough

0:16:27.541,0:16:29.981
that people don't want[br]to be hit with this weapon.

0:16:30.005,0:16:31.408
So if you threaten to use it,

0:16:31.432,0:16:33.193
people are going to comply with it.

0:16:34.496,0:16:36.404
But it's also going to be something

0:16:36.428,0:16:38.507
that doesn't leave any lasting effects."

0:16:41.034,0:16:42.191
In other words,

0:16:42.215,0:16:45.817
your perfect nonlethal weapon[br]is something that's perfect for abuse.

0:16:45.841,0:16:49.390
What would these guys have done[br]if they'd had access to Tasers,

0:16:49.414,0:16:52.905
or to a manned, portable version[br]of the Active Denial System --

0:16:53.699,0:16:56.163
a small heat ray that you[br]can use on people

0:16:56.187,0:16:57.638
and not worry about.

0:16:58.543,0:17:00.200
So I think yes,

0:17:00.224,0:17:03.774
there may be ways that nonlethal weapons[br]will be great in these situations,

0:17:03.798,0:17:05.757
but there's also a whole heap of problems

0:17:05.781,0:17:07.679
that need to be considered as well.

0:17:07.703,0:17:08.863
Thanks very much.

0:17:08.887,0:17:11.611
(Applause)