0:00:05.138,0:00:07.784 "I read an article that said 0:00:07.784,0:00:10.735 that it is moral rebellion 0:00:10.735,0:00:13.174 to deliberately not have children 0:00:13.174,0:00:15.114 when you're married. 0:00:15.114,0:00:18.204 The article said that to think 0:00:18.204,0:00:22.371 that you could have marriage and sex 0:00:22.371,0:00:28.066 but no kids is to defraud God's design. 0:00:28.066,0:00:29.839 Are we doing anything wrong 0:00:29.839,0:00:32.495 by not having children? 0:00:32.495,0:00:34.058 And as a result, not dealing 0:00:34.058,0:00:35.519 with the pain and challenges 0:00:35.519,0:00:38.970 that can come from having kids? 0:00:38.970,0:00:42.245 Is it the motive that must be questioned? 0:00:42.245,0:00:48.514 I'm worried." 0:00:48.514,0:00:50.073 So what do you think? 0:00:50.073,0:00:57.183 Children? No children? 0:00:57.183,0:01:01.015 If we marry, 0:01:01.015,0:01:02.672 a man marries a woman, 0:01:02.672,0:01:04.757 are they commanded 0:01:04.757,0:01:08.818 that if physically possible, 0:01:08.818,0:01:19.034 they should have children? 0:01:19.034,0:01:22.687 Let me ask you a question. 0:01:22.687,0:01:28.296 (Incomplete thought) 0:01:28.296,0:01:30.420 Let's suppose this. 0:01:30.420,0:01:33.959 Let's suppose you get married, 0:01:33.959,0:01:37.707 and you have seven children, 0:01:37.707,0:01:43.430 and then the doctor says to the wife, 0:01:43.430,0:01:46.072 if you have any more children, 0:01:46.072,0:01:48.770 you're probably not going to make it. 0:01:48.770,0:01:51.955 It's probably going to kill you. 0:01:51.955,0:01:56.517 Is it ok to stop having kids? 0:01:56.517,0:01:58.505 On what basis? 0:01:58.505,0:02:00.419 Because you've got to be careful here. 0:02:00.419,0:02:03.312 Because whatever basis you say it's right 0:02:03.312,0:02:05.803 to stop having them... 0:02:05.803,0:02:08.474 (incomplete thought) 0:02:08.474,0:02:11.140 Let's take the seven down to two kids, 0:02:11.140,0:02:13.178 or down to one or down to none. 0:02:13.178,0:02:16.665 So, is that basis for which we stopped 0:02:16.665,0:02:18.600 having children at seven, 0:02:18.600,0:02:23.827 does it also work for 0:02:23.827,0:02:27.823 not having any at all? 0:02:27.823,0:02:35.250 And if my wife's health 0:02:35.250,0:02:37.595 and so maybe both of our health 0:02:37.595,0:02:39.279 should be taken into question, 0:02:39.279,0:02:42.899 is it that it might cause premature death 0:02:42.899,0:02:44.285 to have children? 0:02:44.285,0:02:52.696 If the chances are high enough of that? 0:02:52.696,0:02:57.007 And when does the reason become invalid 0:02:57.007,0:03:02.673 and who sets that standard? 0:03:02.673,0:03:06.218 So Pedro, you're nodding up and down. 0:03:06.218,0:03:08.296 Pedro: No, I wasn't. 0:03:08.296,0:03:17.991 Tim: Oh, you were. So come on. 0:03:17.991,0:03:19.821 Look, I'll just tell you, 0:03:19.821,0:03:21.500 if I have seven children 0:03:21.500,0:03:23.129 and the doctor tells me 0:03:23.129,0:03:25.321 your wife probably isn't going to make it, 0:03:25.321,0:03:27.257 somebody could come along and say 0:03:27.257,0:03:29.662 well, brother, you've [br]got to live by faith. 0:03:29.662,0:03:33.075 Well, yes, I do. 0:03:33.075,0:03:34.234 But living by faith - 0:03:34.234,0:03:35.667 I have faith in that doctor 0:03:35.667,0:03:37.087 and what that doctor told me 0:03:37.087,0:03:39.225 seems to line up with [br]the physical evidence 0:03:39.225,0:03:40.710 that I'm observing in my wife, 0:03:40.710,0:03:42.525 and the reality is I believe him 0:03:42.525,0:03:44.679 because it's not like [br]I'm looking at my wife 0:03:44.679,0:03:46.636 and she looks like a specimen of health, 0:03:46.636,0:03:49.216 and yet he's telling [br]me she's deathly sick. 0:03:49.216,0:03:50.402 I'm looking at my wife 0:03:50.402,0:03:52.368 and I'm seeing what he's saying is true. 0:03:52.368,0:03:53.995 My wife isn't what she used to be. 0:03:53.995,0:03:55.683 My wife is declining physically. 0:03:55.683,0:03:56.978 I recognize this. 0:03:56.978,0:03:58.973 Would I stop having children after 7? 0:03:58.973,0:04:01.577 I would. 0:04:01.577,0:04:10.261 On what basis? 0:04:10.261,0:04:13.507 See, we're not just a [br]checklist kind of people. 0:04:13.507,0:04:15.296 It's not just show me in the Bible 0:04:15.296,0:04:16.395 where it says that. 0:04:16.395,0:04:19.750 It's like love your wife 0:04:19.750,0:04:22.600 as Christ loved the church. 0:04:22.600,0:04:27.726 So, look, I'll let you men define 0:04:27.726,0:04:29.893 what love to your wife looks like. 0:04:29.893,0:04:31.106 In my estimation, 0:04:31.106,0:04:34.888 that would be love for my wife. 0:04:34.888,0:04:40.943 But ok, let's say we don't have any kids. 0:04:40.943,0:04:43.600 And my wife says, oh honey, 0:04:43.600,0:04:46.569 can we just not have kids? 0:04:46.569,0:04:50.067 (incomplete thought) 0:04:50.067,0:04:52.058 There's going to be so much pain 0:04:52.058,0:04:53.481 and so many challenges 0:04:53.481,0:04:55.366 that would come from having children. 0:04:55.366,0:04:58.458 Can we just not have any? 0:04:58.458,0:05:00.623 Ok, if you're going to say 0:05:00.623,0:05:02.843 well, that's not loving your wife 0:05:02.843,0:05:06.799 if you let her get away with that. 0:05:06.799,0:05:12.034 On what basis would you say that? 0:05:12.034,0:05:17.332 (Incomplete thought) 0:05:17.332,0:05:19.933 If somebody was going to say 0:05:19.933,0:05:23.164 that we're defrauding God's purpose, 0:05:23.164,0:05:29.892 what do you think they're alluding to? 0:05:29.892,0:05:31.996 Genesis. 0:05:31.996,0:05:34.813 Be fruitful and multiply 0:05:34.813,0:05:36.240 is what was told to - 0:05:36.240,0:05:38.231 who was it told to? 0:05:38.231,0:05:43.690 Adam, Noah, Jacob... 0:05:43.690,0:05:45.302 at least those three I know 0:05:45.302,0:05:50.175 that it was said to. 0:05:50.175,0:05:52.126 Be fruitful and multiply. 0:05:52.126,0:05:53.810 Ok, well let me ask you this. 0:05:53.810,0:06:01.070 Do you take that as a commandment? 0:06:01.070,0:06:04.116 If you say yes, 0:06:04.116,0:06:09.890 then how is marriage optional? 0:06:09.890,0:06:11.733 Do you see what I'm saying? 0:06:11.733,0:06:12.992 Be fruitful and multiply. 0:06:12.992,0:06:14.107 If that's a command, 0:06:14.107,0:06:15.902 then that sounds like it's a command 0:06:15.902,0:06:17.450 for every man to get married. 0:06:17.450,0:06:20.593 And in fact, if you go a little ways after 0:06:20.593,0:06:22.997 it talks about being fruitful and multiply 0:06:22.997,0:06:27.232 it says some words concerning marriage 0:06:27.232,0:06:29.761 that sound pretty much like the same kind 0:06:29.761,0:06:31.814 of command. 0:06:31.814,0:06:36.333 Let the man (do something). 0:06:36.333,0:06:45.317 Anybody know what it says? 0:06:45.317,0:06:49.049 It says that the man is supposed 0:06:49.049,0:06:50.737 to leave the father and mother. 0:06:50.737,0:06:52.880 And the thing is it doesn't say, 0:06:52.880,0:06:55.053 if he gets married. 0:06:55.053,0:06:57.057 It just says he's supposed to do it. 0:06:57.057,0:06:59.448 So does that mean everybody [br]should get married? 0:06:59.448,0:07:00.603 Or does that mean that 0:07:00.603,0:07:02.376 until Paul came along 0:07:02.376,0:07:03.628 in 1 Corinthians, 0:07:03.628,0:07:06.878 everybody was supposed to get married? 0:07:06.878,0:07:08.567 See, you've got a problem with that 0:07:08.567,0:07:10.683 because remember when the disciples said, 0:07:10.683,0:07:12.547 Oh, if that's true, we'd be better off 0:07:12.547,0:07:13.519 not being married. 0:07:13.519,0:07:16.197 And what did Jesus say? 0:07:16.197,0:07:19.354 You remember the situation? 0:07:19.354,0:07:22.101 Rich, young ruler. 0:07:22.101,0:07:27.732 Isn't that where it comes up? 0:07:27.732,0:07:29.951 No, where did He talk about that? 0:07:29.951,0:07:31.621 Where does Jesus talk about 0:07:31.621,0:07:33.132 some are eunuchs? 0:07:33.132,0:07:36.165 Is that right after the rich, young ruler? 0:07:36.165,0:07:37.671 I think it is. 0:07:37.671,0:07:39.770 But He says not everybody can accept 0:07:39.770,0:07:41.288 this saying. 0:07:41.288,0:07:43.370 Oh, no, it's Matthew 19. 0:07:43.370,0:07:44.231 Excuse me. 0:07:44.231,0:07:46.032 Matthew 19 after that whole discourse 0:07:46.032,0:07:47.139 on divorce. 0:07:47.139,0:07:48.574 Isn't that where it is? 0:07:48.574,0:07:52.679 And that's when the disciples said whoa! 0:07:52.679,0:07:56.283 You know, if this is the case, 0:07:56.283,0:07:58.300 we're better off not marrying, 0:07:58.300,0:08:04.616 and He says not everybody [br]can receive that. 0:08:04.616,0:08:05.893 Some are eunuchs. 0:08:05.893,0:08:06.684 Even then. 0:08:06.684,0:08:08.021 Even before Paul came along 0:08:08.021,0:08:09.427 and wrote to the Corinthians, 0:08:09.427,0:08:10.961 the reality is there were people 0:08:10.961,0:08:12.151 who didn't get married. 0:08:12.151,0:08:13.696 So here's the thing. 0:08:13.696,0:08:15.234 If be fruitful and multiply 0:08:15.234,0:08:16.479 is a command to multiply, 0:08:16.479,0:08:18.096 you would think that it would have 0:08:18.096,0:08:19.860 by necessity included 0:08:19.860,0:08:21.740 the commandment to marry, 0:08:21.740,0:08:23.207 which if you actually look at 0:08:23.207,0:08:24.839 what's being said about marriage, 0:08:24.839,0:08:26.939 it sounds like the same kind of command 0:08:26.939,0:08:29.579 that be fruitful and multiply sounds like. 0:08:29.579,0:08:31.599 And yet when you move away 0:08:31.599,0:08:33.108 into the New Testament, 0:08:33.108,0:08:38.103 you find that marriage 0:08:38.103,0:08:41.905 certainly isn't required. 0:08:41.905,0:08:43.697 In fact, Paul thought people 0:08:43.697,0:08:46.051 may be even better off not doing it. 0:08:46.051,0:08:47.947 Jesus was never married. 0:08:47.947,0:08:54.904 Barnabas was never married. 0:08:54.904,0:08:55.725 (from the room) 0:08:55.725,0:08:57.031 Isn't it kind of [br] 0:08:57.031,0:09:00.165 reminiscent of 1 Timothy 4? 0:09:00.165,0:09:02.999 About those forbidding marriage 0:09:02.999,0:09:04.995 and requiring abstinence - 0:09:04.995,0:09:10.121 like it's kind of the law. 0:09:10.121,0:09:12.095 Tim: Well, somebody was laying down 0:09:12.095,0:09:14.250 a law forbidding marriage, 0:09:14.250,0:09:16.401 because obviously the Catholic church, 0:09:16.401,0:09:18.992 demonic doctrines are going to come in 0:09:18.992,0:09:23.045 and the Catholic church is a great example 0:09:23.045,0:09:25.040 of that. 0:09:25.040,0:09:28.549 But I guess the point that [br]I'm trying to get at here is 0:09:28.549,0:09:30.508 ok, we have things in Scripture said 0:09:30.508,0:09:32.540 about being fruitful and multiplying. 0:09:32.540,0:09:33.910 You've got something said, 0:09:33.910,0:09:37.845 what is it Psalm 123 or 127 or something 0:09:37.845,0:09:43.501 about the quiver being full. 0:09:43.501,0:09:45.544 Here's the thing. 0:09:45.544,0:09:49.667 Women who didn't have children, 0:09:49.667,0:09:51.598 wanted children. 0:09:51.598,0:09:52.884 Scripturally. 0:09:52.884,0:09:57.022 Can you think of anybody in Scripture 0:09:57.022,0:10:01.574 that purposely did not have children? 0:10:01.574,0:10:04.115 I can think of one person. 0:10:04.115,0:10:06.706 And God killed him. 0:10:06.706,0:10:08.727 But it wasn't just because he looked 0:10:08.727,0:10:10.166 at the commandment: 0:10:10.166,0:10:11.547 Be fruitful and multiply, 0:10:11.547,0:10:15.049 and said no! 0:10:15.049,0:10:18.819 It was: Raise up seed for your brother, 0:10:18.819,0:10:22.734 and he said no. 0:10:22.734,0:10:24.518 One of the sons of Judah. 0:10:24.518,0:10:25.779 You remember him? 0:10:25.779,0:10:31.027 You remember Perez 0:10:31.027,0:10:33.846 is in the Messianic line. 0:10:33.846,0:10:35.440 And his father was Judah; 0:10:35.440,0:10:36.640 his mother was Tamar. 0:10:36.640,0:10:38.695 You remember the whole [br]incident with Tamar? 0:10:38.695,0:10:42.272 She disguised herself as a prostitute.[br]Got impregnated by her father-in-law. 0:10:42.272,0:10:44.055 Well, there were sons there. 0:10:44.055,0:10:46.003 The first son, the second son... 0:10:46.003,0:10:48.850 and the first son died, 0:10:48.850,0:10:51.014 and so Tamar was given to the second son, 0:10:51.014,0:10:53.087 and then that son Onan had to raise up 0:10:53.087,0:10:55.716 seed to his dead brother, 0:10:55.716,0:10:57.896 and he wasn't willing to do it 0:10:57.896,0:10:59.527 and God killed him. 0:10:59.527,0:11:00.849 But see, that's different. 0:11:00.849,0:11:02.857 He wasn't just disobeying the commandment 0:11:02.857,0:11:03.794 to have children, 0:11:03.794,0:11:05.397 he was disobeying the commandment 0:11:05.397,0:11:07.208 to raise up seed for his brother. 0:11:07.208,0:11:10.512 So, it's a different situation. 0:11:10.512,0:11:12.378 But other than that, 0:11:12.378,0:11:13.986 I can't think of any place 0:11:13.986,0:11:15.066 in the Old Testament 0:11:15.066,0:11:18.775 where people willingly [br]didn't want children. 0:11:18.775,0:11:20.520 In fact, if anything, it was a curse 0:11:20.520,0:11:22.210 if you didn't have children. 0:11:22.210,0:11:24.269 It was looked down on. 0:11:24.269,0:11:26.627 You remember how it was with Sarah 0:11:26.627,0:11:27.407 in her old age. 0:11:27.407,0:11:29.272 Or you remember how it was with Rachel 0:11:29.272,0:11:31.312 when Leah's bearing all sorts of children, 0:11:31.312,0:11:32.666 and Rachel can't have any. 0:11:32.666,0:11:34.058 They all wanted children. 0:11:34.058,0:11:35.419 Or you think about Elizabeth 0:11:35.419,0:11:41.138 when you come into the New Testament. 0:11:41.138,0:11:44.139 It just seemed like it was the norm. 0:11:44.139,0:11:45.567 It was the blessing. 0:11:45.567,0:11:48.390 The idea of somebody not wanting children 0:11:48.390,0:11:54.879 was like just unheard of. 0:11:54.879,0:11:56.438 So, here's the thing. 0:11:56.438,0:11:59.028 Again, we don't just live by a checklist. 0:11:59.028,0:12:01.110 What I would want to know - 0:12:01.110,0:12:03.622 even in the New Testament, 0:12:03.622,0:12:07.658 having children is assumed. 0:12:07.658,0:12:09.380 Like, you get the qualifications 0:12:09.380,0:12:10.595 for elders and deacons, 0:12:10.595,0:12:13.063 it's just assumed that they have children. 0:12:13.063,0:12:15.877 It doesn't mean they [br]have to have children. 0:12:15.877,0:12:18.108 But it's just assumed that they do. 0:12:18.108,0:12:24.003 Or you know you get the older women 0:12:24.003,0:12:25.415 teaching the younger women 0:12:25.415,0:12:26.584 there in Titus, 0:12:26.584,0:12:28.949 and it's just assumed that older women 0:12:28.949,0:12:30.854 are supposed to teach the younger women 0:12:30.854,0:12:33.689 to love their husbands and their children. 0:12:33.689,0:12:36.711 The children are assumed. 0:12:36.711,0:12:38.517 (in response to comment): Right, 0:12:38.517,0:12:41.273 the widows being enrolled in 1 Timothy 5, 0:12:41.273,0:12:43.987 it's assumed that they raised children. 0:12:43.987,0:12:49.802 They were the wife of one husband. 0:12:49.802,0:12:52.435 And they raised children 0:12:52.435,0:12:54.452 and they showed hospitality 0:12:54.452,0:12:57.575 and washed the feet of the saints. 0:12:57.575,0:12:59.577 But it's just assumed. 0:12:59.577,0:13:01.094 But here's the thing, 0:13:01.094,0:13:02.525 Paul comes along and says, 0:13:02.525,0:13:05.280 in this present distress, 0:13:05.280,0:13:07.483 I would say that it's better 0:13:07.483,0:13:08.679 if you didn't even marry, 0:13:08.679,0:13:10.423 and obviously if you don't marry, 0:13:10.423,0:13:12.337 you're not having children. 0:13:12.337,0:13:18.120 (Incomplete thought) 0:13:18.120,0:13:20.567 What's the present distress? 0:13:20.567,0:13:24.105 Let's say there was a severe persecution 0:13:24.105,0:13:27.664 taking place right at that time. 0:13:27.664,0:13:30.227 Paul says, look, in light of the distress, 0:13:30.227,0:13:32.127 in light of the fact that Christians 0:13:32.127,0:13:34.540 are being chased all over the place, 0:13:34.540,0:13:36.120 and they're being hunted down... 0:13:36.120,0:13:40.551 I'll tell you, it's best not being married 0:13:40.551,0:13:42.164 because if you have a family 0:13:42.164,0:13:43.479 in that kind of situation, 0:13:43.479,0:13:46.011 let's say you already got married 0:13:46.011,0:13:48.835 and then you hear Paul say that. 0:13:48.835,0:13:50.658 And it's like, well, we're married 0:13:50.658,0:13:52.750 and so we're going to keep our vows here, 0:13:52.750,0:13:54.579 but in light of this present distress, 0:13:54.579,0:13:56.720 we do think it's best [br]not to have children; 0:13:56.720,0:13:58.080 not to bring them into this. 0:13:58.080,0:13:59.960 I don't want my wife pregnant. 0:13:59.960,0:14:03.168 Jesus even said something about 0:14:03.168,0:14:07.817 you should hope that you're not with child 0:14:07.817,0:14:09.111 or it's not on the Sabbath 0:14:09.111,0:14:11.083 at certain times when the Romans 0:14:11.083,0:14:12.109 are going to come in. 0:14:12.109,0:14:13.998 Why? Because it's difficult to travel. 0:14:13.998,0:14:16.234 If you're in a time of [br]heavy duty persecution, 0:14:16.234,0:14:17.766 Christians are on the run. 0:14:17.766,0:14:19.216 You've already gotten married. 0:14:19.226,0:14:20.739 You've got to keep those vows. 0:14:20.739,0:14:22.017 But you come to recognize, 0:14:22.017,0:14:23.270 you know, it might not be 0:14:23.270,0:14:24.456 in our best interest. 0:14:24.456,0:14:26.391 Here's one of the things to consider. 0:14:26.391,0:14:29.284 Back in those days, 0:14:29.284,0:14:31.537 maybe you can correct me on this, 0:14:31.537,0:14:33.894 I don't know anything about birth control 0:14:33.894,0:14:34.983 in those days, 0:14:34.983,0:14:36.211 but I can tell you this, 0:14:36.211,0:14:38.104 that if a man and a woman are married, 0:14:38.104,0:14:40.642 one of the first things that Paul says[br]in 1 Corinthians 7 is that they 0:14:40.642,0:14:42.868 need to not withhold their [br]bodies from each other. 0:14:42.868,0:14:44.218 Well, back in those [br]days, I don't know 0:14:44.218,0:14:45.944 what forms of birth control they had, 0:14:45.944,0:14:47.256 but you're not supposed to 0:14:47.256,0:14:48.969 withhold yourself from each other, 0:14:48.969,0:14:51.921 and so, you know, the [br]birth control thing - 0:14:51.921,0:14:53.002 when did that come in? 0:14:53.002,0:14:54.125 I don't know. 0:14:54.125,0:14:54.994 I don't know. 0:14:54.994,0:14:56.187 I've never researched it. 0:14:56.187,0:14:58.498 I don't know the issues. 0:14:58.498,0:15:01.678 Obviously, those things come into 0:15:01.678,0:15:03.457 the equation now maybe in ways 0:15:03.457,0:15:05.834 that they didn't 2,000 years ago. 0:15:05.834,0:15:07.360 I can tell you this, 0:15:07.360,0:15:11.418 you better not be killing your children. 0:15:11.418,0:15:14.910 Any type of birth control that is abortive 0:15:14.910,0:15:18.433 even as a third or fourth option 0:15:18.433,0:15:21.296 of preventative is (incomplete thought). 0:15:21.296,0:15:24.216 I will tell you that if it is ever 0:15:24.216,0:15:26.380 found out in our church 0:15:26.380,0:15:28.520 that somebody is using that form, 0:15:28.520,0:15:30.360 it is a disciplinary matter 0:15:30.360,0:15:34.677 undoubtedly, unquestionably. 0:15:34.677,0:15:36.116 Any form of birth control 0:15:36.116,0:15:42.059 that even remotely can be abortive. 0:15:42.059,0:15:43.793 For the life of me, 0:15:43.793,0:15:47.284 I can't figure out why in the world 0:15:47.284,0:15:50.290 things like this even come up for debate 0:15:50.290,0:15:52.384 among genuine Christians. 0:15:52.384,0:15:54.492 Maybe they don't. 0:15:54.492,0:15:56.446 Maybe genuine Christians would 0:15:56.446,0:16:00.162 abominate the idea of [br]murdering their children. 0:16:00.162,0:16:03.001 Maybe there's ignorance too. 0:16:03.001,0:16:04.780 But I think birth control 0:16:04.780,0:16:09.605 ends up being part of the equation. 0:16:09.605,0:16:11.950 But here's the thing, 0:16:11.950,0:16:14.824 if a Christian couple said 0:16:14.824,0:16:18.116 that they didn't want to have children, 0:16:18.116,0:16:19.964 if they told me it was because of 0:16:19.964,0:16:21.484 the present distress, 0:16:21.484,0:16:24.294 and they're on the phone with me, 0:16:24.294,0:16:26.355 and they happen to be over in North Korea 0:16:26.355,0:16:27.434 and they're on the run 0:16:27.434,0:16:29.171 and they're living in the marshes - 0:16:29.171,0:16:31.176 ok, I understand that. 0:16:31.176,0:16:33.654 I'm not going to fault that. 0:16:33.654,0:16:38.113 If they say, you know what? 0:16:38.113,0:16:42.109 God just pressed upon us to adopt, 0:16:42.109,0:16:44.227 and we've adopted 14 children, 0:16:44.227,0:16:47.519 and we've always believed 0:16:47.519,0:16:49.503 that's what God wanted us to do. 0:16:49.503,0:16:51.734 There's so many children without parents. 0:16:51.734,0:16:53.008 You know what? 0:16:53.008,0:16:55.275 I would not question that. 0:16:55.275,0:16:58.205 But if somebody's like, 0:16:58.205,0:17:02.467 just give me the easy life. 0:17:02.467,0:17:04.632 Yeah, you know what, 0:17:04.632,0:17:08.852 you probably need children. 0:17:08.852,0:17:13.315 I mean, I would probably pastorally 0:17:13.315,0:17:15.825 be encouraging them to have them. 0:17:15.825,0:17:18.512 And we've run into that situation. 0:17:18.512,0:17:19.982 James may remember a situation 0:17:19.982,0:17:21.778 we ran into several years back 0:17:21.778,0:17:23.849 when somebody that most of you 0:17:23.849,0:17:25.285 probably know - 0:17:25.285,0:17:29.970 he and his wife weren't having children, 0:17:29.970,0:17:33.202 and just looking at the normalcy of it 0:17:33.202,0:17:34.312 in Scripture, 0:17:34.312,0:17:42.530 it's like why would you not? 0:17:42.530,0:17:45.886 But, you know, if somebody's 0:17:45.886,0:17:49.578 in a ministerial position of some sort - 0:17:49.578,0:17:51.945 they're a pastor or deacon, 0:17:51.945,0:17:54.481 I think it's good for men [br]in those positions 0:17:54.481,0:17:56.269 to be married and have wives - 0:17:56.269,0:17:57.941 not that it's absolutely mandatory, 0:17:57.941,0:17:59.395 but I think it's good. 0:17:59.395,0:18:02.750 It tends to set a good example. 0:18:02.750,0:18:05.938 And look, it's not like [br]you have to have kids 0:18:05.938,0:18:07.476 to be able to counsel on kids. 0:18:07.476,0:18:09.203 It's not like you have to be married 0:18:09.203,0:18:10.377 to counsel on marriage. 0:18:10.377,0:18:12.309 Paul wasn't married and he gave counsel 0:18:12.309,0:18:14.474 on marriage and on kids. 0:18:14.474,0:18:17.011 So, you know, you don't want to say 0:18:17.011,0:18:18.993 you can't tell me anything about that. 0:18:18.993,0:18:20.184 Look, truth is truth, 0:18:20.184,0:18:22.078 no matter who's telling you. 0:18:22.078,0:18:25.354 But it is helpful to have experiences. 0:18:25.354,0:18:29.412 There's no question about that. 0:18:29.412,0:18:32.158 But you know, if I'm getting the feeling 0:18:32.158,0:18:33.986 that somebody's making that decision 0:18:33.986,0:18:38.538 because they just want ease, 0:18:38.538,0:18:44.716 oh brethren, through much tribulation... 0:18:44.716,0:18:46.597 So if you opt out of children 0:18:46.597,0:18:50.811 because you're looking [br]for the easier path, 0:18:50.811,0:18:53.065 and you're truly a child of God, 0:18:53.065,0:18:56.125 don't believe you're on the easy road. 0:18:56.125,0:18:57.724 The Lord will see to it that 0:18:57.724,0:18:59.156 that's not going to happen. 0:18:59.156,0:19:00.939 Pastorally, if I was sensing 0:19:00.939,0:19:02.858 that somebody was not having children 0:19:02.858,0:19:06.401 because of some kind of worldliness; 0:19:06.401,0:19:07.876 some kind of selfishness; 0:19:07.876,0:19:10.663 I would probably want to 0:19:10.663,0:19:15.728 put my finger on that. 0:19:15.728,0:19:16.950 Any other thoughts? 0:19:16.950,0:19:17.761 (from the room) 0:19:17.761,0:19:19.767 I don't remember if you [br]hit on this or not 0:19:19.767,0:19:20.952 but as far as the verse: 0:19:20.952,0:19:22.517 Be fruitful and multiply. 0:19:22.517,0:19:24.157 Is there a way we should view that 0:19:24.157,0:19:26.028 in the New Testament. 0:19:26.028,0:19:27.674 I mean Israel is a physical nation 0:19:27.674,0:19:31.388 taking this lineage to have Christ, 0:19:31.388,0:19:33.413 a physical people. 0:19:33.413,0:19:35.116 We're now looking to not just 0:19:35.116,0:19:36.664 make physical children 0:19:36.664,0:19:38.257 but spiritual children. 0:19:38.257,0:19:39.769 Is there any way we could take 0:19:39.769,0:19:42.550 that text and view it 0:19:42.550,0:19:44.718 in the New Testament through that lens? 0:19:44.718,0:19:46.768 Tim: Well, we could just spiritualize it, 0:19:46.768,0:19:48.385 much like marriage has all these 0:19:48.385,0:19:49.442 spiritual realities. 0:19:49.442,0:19:52.923 We could spiritualize it. 0:19:52.923,0:19:54.052 (from the room) 0:19:54.052,0:19:55.986 For people who do spiritualize it, 0:19:55.986,0:19:57.568 are you comfortable with that? 0:19:57.568,0:19:59.083 Or do you feel like they don't 0:19:59.083,0:20:03.026 actually have biblical grounds to do that? 0:20:03.026,0:20:05.243 Tim: Well, I think Jesus basically 0:20:05.243,0:20:07.708 was saying be fruitful and multiply 0:20:07.708,0:20:10.324 in His Great Commission. 0:20:10.324,0:20:12.388 But whether it's taken from that 0:20:12.388,0:20:14.130 and if somebody took it and said, 0:20:14.130,0:20:16.515 well, that's all that means to me 0:20:16.515,0:20:18.460 today as a New Testament believer. 0:20:18.460,0:20:24.224 Well, really, I would just say this: 0:20:24.224,0:20:26.943 The fact that Paul tells people 0:20:26.943,0:20:29.695 not to marry is indirectly a call 0:20:29.695,0:20:32.016 to not bear children too. 0:20:32.016,0:20:37.809 And so, I guess that's [br]the tension I feel there. 0:20:37.809,0:20:44.846 (Incomplete thought) 0:20:44.846,0:20:46.343 Just think with me here. 0:20:46.343,0:20:50.784 He's clearly indicating that 0:20:50.784,0:20:53.978 for the sake of serving the Lord, 0:20:53.978,0:20:56.720 it would be best not to be married. 0:20:56.720,0:20:59.854 You can be more fully [br]devoted to the Lord then. 0:20:59.854,0:21:02.985 I would say if a married couple 0:21:02.985,0:21:05.253 didn't have children, 0:21:05.253,0:21:07.009 and seriously they were concerned 0:21:07.009,0:21:08.551 about serving the Lord, 0:21:08.551,0:21:10.267 and they weren't having the children 0:21:10.267,0:21:14.673 in order to serve the Lord [br]in a certain capacity, 0:21:14.673,0:21:19.199 is there a place to use [br]Paul's same argumentation 0:21:19.199,0:21:21.144 to make that case? 0:21:21.144,0:21:22.554 It's an off-handed way, 0:21:22.554,0:21:24.987 and I recognize he [br]directly did not say that. 0:21:24.987,0:21:26.766 And then I recognize you also have 0:21:26.766,0:21:27.965 the other aspect 0:21:27.965,0:21:33.040 that you have a man and a woman 0:21:33.040,0:21:35.883 and the two are supposed to be 0:21:35.883,0:21:39.447 giving their bodies to one another. 0:21:39.447,0:21:41.879 Typically, the natural result [br]of that is children. 0:21:41.879,0:21:47.241 And obviously some unnatural action 0:21:47.241,0:21:49.307 has to be taken, 0:21:49.307,0:21:55.247 to prevent that from happening. 0:21:55.247,0:21:57.448 It's the kind of thing that I think 0:21:57.448,0:22:01.001 we all have to wrestle [br]with these questions 0:22:01.001,0:22:03.477 and we have to come to a place 0:22:03.477,0:22:05.646 (incomplete thought) 0:22:05.646,0:22:07.142 It's kind of like Romans 14 0:22:07.142,0:22:09.493 where Paul is saying that 0:22:09.493,0:22:14.436 let everyone be persuaded in his own mind. 0:22:14.436,0:22:16.852 We want people that are convinced. 0:22:16.852,0:22:19.089 And so you want to wrestle through. 0:22:19.089,0:22:22.967 And the thing we have to be honest about, 0:22:22.967,0:22:24.325 is really seriously looking 0:22:24.325,0:22:25.762 at what Scripture says 0:22:25.762,0:22:27.240 and what God's will is - 0:22:27.240,0:22:28.524 not just what our will is. 0:22:28.524,0:22:30.025 Not just going in with our will 0:22:30.025,0:22:31.708 already made up 0:22:31.708,0:22:35.550 or our lifestyle already determined 0:22:35.550,0:22:36.691 in our own minds. 0:22:36.691,0:22:38.488 And then we're just looking 0:22:38.488,0:22:48.669 for the way to validate our lifestyle. 0:22:48.669,0:22:50.849 This doesn't just end. 0:22:50.849,0:22:53.840 It's be fruitful and multiply. 0:22:53.840,0:22:56.108 And so, the question doesn't only come up 0:22:56.108,0:22:57.964 with whether you have any children; 0:22:57.964,0:23:00.686 it comes up again after you've had one, 0:23:00.686,0:23:05.854 or two, or three, or four... 0:23:05.854,0:23:08.851 Every family in the church [br]is wrestling with this. 0:23:08.851,0:23:11.132 And look, this question comes up 0:23:11.132,0:23:12.625 and all you have to do is talk 0:23:12.625,0:23:13.839 to the men and the women, 0:23:13.839,0:23:15.523 and what you're getting is 0:23:15.523,0:23:18.538 some families, they're going [br]on to six and seven; 0:23:18.538,0:23:22.834 And some you see four, five, six... 0:23:22.834,0:23:25.496 they stop. 0:23:25.496,0:23:27.600 And there's no more. 0:23:27.600,0:23:28.975 Why? 0:23:28.975,0:23:30.989 Something happened? 0:23:30.989,0:23:35.430 And not only has something happened, 0:23:35.430,0:23:38.088 decisions are being made. 0:23:38.088,0:23:42.547 And people are wrestling with God's Word, 0:23:42.547,0:23:45.650 and they're wrestling with the truth here. 0:23:45.650,0:23:46.964 I would say in our church 0:23:46.964,0:23:48.592 those who believe that you should 0:23:48.592,0:23:50.801 keep having children until God stops 0:23:50.801,0:23:52.283 giving them to you 0:23:52.283,0:23:56.867 are the exception. 0:23:56.867,0:23:59.954 I personally only know of like 2 or 3 0:23:59.954,0:24:02.892 that have taken that position. 0:24:02.892,0:24:05.392 It's just something we all [br]have to wrestle with. 0:24:05.392,0:24:06.424 I can tell you this, 0:24:06.424,0:24:07.856 when I got to the point where 0:24:07.856,0:24:08.911 I wrestled with it, 0:24:08.911,0:24:11.227 it's like the Lord just gave me 0:24:11.227,0:24:14.320 a sense of peace. 0:24:14.320,0:24:16.129 And I know that's very subjective, 0:24:16.129,0:24:18.596 but look, I wanted ten children 0:24:18.596,0:24:20.961 from the very beginning. 0:24:20.961,0:24:23.726 My wife can tell you that. 0:24:23.726,0:24:27.122 And when the time came 0:24:27.122,0:24:30.769 and I sought the Lord in the matter, 0:24:30.769,0:24:33.386 it wasn't like there was even a wrestling. 0:24:33.386,0:24:35.127 As much as I wanted ten children, 0:24:35.127,0:24:38.321 it was like the Lord just affirmed it 0:24:38.321,0:24:43.705 that it was right to stop there. 0:24:43.705,0:24:45.650 And I know that's very subjective. 0:24:45.650,0:24:47.875 But a lot of this is going to be. 0:24:47.875,0:24:48.945 We have to wrestle 0:24:48.945,0:24:51.349 through these things, 0:24:51.349,0:24:53.930 and we have to take it before the Lord. 0:24:53.930,0:24:55.052 I'll tell you this. 0:24:55.052,0:24:56.772 If you go before the Lord, 0:24:56.772,0:25:01.798 and your will is surrendered, 0:25:01.798,0:25:04.697 you really want His will. 0:25:04.697,0:25:06.701 You really do. 0:25:06.701,0:25:09.703 That doesn't mean you [br]don't have preferences. 0:25:09.703,0:25:11.374 But you're really surrendered. 0:25:11.374,0:25:12.803 The Lord's going to guide you. 0:25:12.803,0:25:14.481 The Lord will take you in the path 0:25:14.481,0:25:17.088 that you need to go. 0:25:17.088,0:25:18.798 The Lord will make things obvious. 0:25:18.798,0:25:20.408 He'll bring the right counselors. 0:25:20.408,0:25:22.020 He'll bring the right Scripture 0:25:22.020,0:25:24.363 to bear on your conscience. 0:25:24.363,0:25:26.672 You just cry out to Him. 0:25:26.672,0:25:29.562 You keep your conscience guided 0:25:29.562,0:25:32.430 and immersed in Scripture all the time. 0:25:32.430,0:25:36.554 Scripture, Scripture, Scripture... 0:25:36.554,0:25:38.371 the last thing you need to be doing 0:25:38.371,0:25:41.142 is talking to your worldly relatives 0:25:41.142,0:25:43.200 or your worldly co-workers. 0:25:43.200,0:25:46.774 That's not what guides conscience. 0:25:46.774,0:25:48.056 It's Scripture. 0:25:48.056,0:25:49.419 It's God's Word 0:25:49.419,0:25:51.509 just washing your mind, 0:25:51.509,0:25:53.993 washing, washing, washing. 0:25:53.993,0:25:56.470 Being renewed, being renewed. 0:25:56.470,0:26:00.251 Being guided by a sense of God's will 0:26:00.251,0:26:03.071 and God's purpose. 0:26:03.071,0:26:05.722 And you know, I'm studying Scripture 0:26:05.722,0:26:07.073 all the time. 0:26:07.073,0:26:10.818 I can tell you from the [br]time that we had Joy until now, 0:26:10.818,0:26:14.000 I would have liked to [br]have had more children. 0:26:14.000,0:26:15.568 But I've never second guessed 0:26:15.568,0:26:18.198 whether we did the right thing or not. 0:26:18.198,0:26:20.016 After all the studying of Scripture, 0:26:20.016,0:26:23.243 it's not like, oh, you know this cloud 0:26:23.243,0:26:25.398 that we did the wrong thing. 0:26:25.398,0:26:26.411 We sought the Lord. 0:26:26.411,0:26:28.271 I believe the Lord guided us. 0:26:28.271,0:26:29.147 (from the room) 0:26:29.147,0:26:32.459 You don't need to give details, [br]but weren't there objective reasons? 0:26:32.459,0:26:34.029 Not just subjective? 0:26:34.029,0:26:35.568 Tim: Yes, there were. 0:26:35.568,0:26:37.613 I mean I went through all the objective - 0:26:37.613,0:26:40.970 the objective reasons. 0:26:40.970,0:26:47.871 Basically, we had a newborn, 0:26:47.871,0:26:49.991 a one year old, a three year old, 0:26:49.991,0:26:52.426 and a five year old. 0:26:52.426,0:26:54.768 And you know, a lot of times 0:26:54.768,0:26:56.783 when families were like that, 0:26:56.783,0:26:58.781 they had nannies and stuff. 0:26:58.781,0:26:59.952 We didn't have that. 0:26:59.952,0:27:01.829 We didn't have anybody. 0:27:01.829,0:27:04.861 (Incomplete thought) 0:27:04.861,0:27:10.367 And I was working full [br]time as an engineer, 0:27:10.367,0:27:13.326 trying to be involved in the ministry, 0:27:13.326,0:27:15.341 we lived out in the country 0:27:15.341,0:27:17.193 and we were in the woods, 0:27:17.193,0:27:19.653 so I was clearing trees 0:27:19.653,0:27:21.866 and putting water lines in. 0:27:21.866,0:27:23.555 I'd come home from work 0:27:23.555,0:27:25.223 and go right out. 0:27:25.223,0:27:26.055 A lot of times, 0:27:26.055,0:27:27.772 I wouldn't change my work clothes. 0:27:27.772,0:27:28.984 I'd just put my boots on 0:27:28.984,0:27:30.502 and straight out to try to get 0:27:30.502,0:27:32.014 every bit of daylight I could 0:27:32.014,0:27:32.974 out of the day. 0:27:32.974,0:27:36.581 And Ruby's got, I think, 0:27:36.581,0:27:38.878 two in diapers, 0:27:38.878,0:27:41.745 plus a three year old and a five year old. 0:27:41.745,0:27:43.855 And now, with the five year old, 0:27:43.855,0:27:46.159 homeschooling starts. 0:27:46.159,0:27:51.015 And she's just wiped out. 0:27:51.015,0:27:53.360 She said I have to start [br]home schooling now 0:27:53.360,0:27:59.022 and can we please stop? 0:27:59.022,0:28:01.031 You know, that coming at a guy 0:28:01.031,0:28:02.808 that over and over and over, 0:28:02.808,0:28:04.386 if she told you how many times 0:28:04.386,0:28:05.922 I said we're having ten kids, 0:28:05.922,0:28:07.220 I probably said it 0:28:07.220,0:28:11.869 ten times ten times ten times. 0:28:11.869,0:28:13.549 I'd tell it to everybody. 0:28:13.549,0:28:15.292 We're having ten kids. 0:28:15.292,0:28:16.499 And so when she came in 0:28:16.499,0:28:17.247 it was like, 0:28:17.247,0:28:18.641 I don't know if she thought 0:28:18.641,0:28:20.300 she was going to get hesitation, 0:28:20.300,0:28:23.917 but it was just like the Lord confirmed it 0:28:23.917,0:28:36.371 that it was out of love for my wife. 0:28:36.371,0:28:39.283 What time do we have? 0:28:39.283,0:28:43.321 Brethren, I'll tell you this. 0:28:43.321,0:28:44.887 The families in the church 0:28:44.887,0:28:46.548 that are convinced that they need 0:28:46.548,0:28:48.061 to keep having children, 0:28:48.061,0:28:51.563 I don't try to unconvince them. 0:28:51.563,0:28:53.839 Those who take: be fruitful and multiply 0:28:53.839,0:28:56.700 and they feel like that is a commandment 0:28:56.700,0:29:00.226 of God to them to keep having children, 0:29:00.226,0:29:02.309 amen. 0:29:02.309,0:29:04.546 We all have to wrestle [br]though these things, 0:29:04.546,0:29:06.031 and what I want is a church 0:29:06.031,0:29:07.848 full of people with conviction. 0:29:07.848,0:29:09.394 What I want is people who know 0:29:09.394,0:29:11.679 why they're doing what they do. 0:29:11.679,0:29:12.610 That's Romans 14. 0:29:12.610,0:29:14.102 And you know what's interesting 0:29:14.102,0:29:15.340 about Romans 14? 0:29:15.340,0:29:17.702 Is some people keep the day,[br]some people don't keep the day. 0:29:17.702,0:29:19.947 Some people eat the meat,[br]some people don't eat the meat. 0:29:19.947,0:29:21.793 Not everybody's doing the same thing. 0:29:21.793,0:29:24.291 But Paul said I want you all convinced. 0:29:24.291,0:29:25.401 In other words, 0:29:25.401,0:29:27.775 I want you all to be people of conviction. 0:29:27.775,0:29:29.210 You say, well, is that safe? 0:29:29.210,0:29:31.316 Having a church full of [br]people with conviction 0:29:31.316,0:29:33.487 when sometimes when their [br]convictions aren't right? 0:29:33.487,0:29:36.618 Or when their convictions don't line up? 0:29:36.618,0:29:38.432 Well yeah, that's healthy. 0:29:38.432,0:29:40.099 That doesn't mean you should have 0:29:40.099,0:29:41.334 a conviction about the Trinity 0:29:41.334,0:29:43.015 that's different from all the rest of us. 0:29:43.015,0:29:45.021 It doesn't mean you [br]have different thoughts 0:29:45.021,0:29:46.656 on justification by faith. 0:29:46.656,0:29:48.277 We're not talking about that. 0:29:48.277,0:29:50.606 We're talking about number of children; 0:29:50.606,0:29:51.968 we're talking about meat; 0:29:51.968,0:29:53.678 we're talking about observing days, 0:29:53.678,0:29:54.879 not observing a day. 0:29:54.879,0:29:56.725 We're talking about things like that. 0:29:56.725,0:29:58.155 And we should have a people 0:29:58.155,0:29:59.116 full of conviction. 0:29:59.116,0:30:01.262 Because what is a [br]people full of conviction? 0:30:01.262,0:30:04.592 It means they're [br]exercising their discernment. 0:30:04.592,0:30:07.416 They're finding out the good and the bad. 0:30:07.416,0:30:08.966 What that tells you is 0:30:08.966,0:30:12.110 you're getting mature people. 0:30:12.110,0:30:14.272 And it all the more reflects the maturity 0:30:14.272,0:30:16.755 when I strongly believe that I can have 0:30:16.755,0:30:17.671 four children, 0:30:17.671,0:30:18.923 and you strongly believe 0:30:18.923,0:30:20.655 that you should keep having children 0:30:20.655,0:30:21.815 till your wife is dead, 0:30:21.815,0:30:23.454 and we can both look at each other 0:30:23.454,0:30:25.067 and hug each other 0:30:25.067,0:30:30.061 and say, "Hi, brother." 0:30:30.061,0:30:31.985 And I'm not saying that there's any men 0:30:31.985,0:30:39.241 in the church that would go that far. 0:30:39.241,0:30:42.236 Ok. 0:30:42.236,0:30:45.968 Father, we pray make us a people 0:30:45.968,0:30:47.143 of the Word. 0:30:47.143,0:30:48.760 Make us people of the Book. 0:30:48.760,0:30:51.674 People that it could be said of us, 0:30:51.674,0:30:54.673 Lord, I think of Bunyan, 0:30:54.673,0:30:56.140 it was said of him 0:30:56.140,0:30:57.693 that you could cut him anywhere 0:30:57.693,0:31:00.199 and he would bleed Scripture. 0:31:00.199,0:31:01.853 And Lord, I know when people have 0:31:01.853,0:31:03.120 moved here to our church 0:31:03.120,0:31:04.805 they oftentimes are amazed 0:31:04.805,0:31:06.573 at how even the youngest believers 0:31:06.573,0:31:08.531 among us know so much Scripture. 0:31:08.531,0:31:10.171 And Lord, I pray that would just 0:31:10.171,0:31:11.501 continue all the more. 0:31:11.501,0:31:13.226 Lord, not to puff us up. 0:31:13.226,0:31:15.430 But may we know the Scriptures truly 0:31:15.430,0:31:17.152 in a way that humbles us; 0:31:17.152,0:31:18.916 in a way that we see Your glory; 0:31:18.916,0:31:23.154 in a way that our God is big, Lord; 0:31:23.154,0:31:24.847 in a way that our lives would be 0:31:24.847,0:31:31.957 guided by that lamp unto our feet. 0:31:31.957,0:31:33.991 Please, guide us by Your Word, Lord. 0:31:33.991,0:31:35.420 We pray in Christ's name, 0:31:35.420,0:31:37.076 Amen.