WEBVTT
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Herald (De): Herzlich willkommen im Hacker
Morgengrauen im Stream der c-base der
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Raumstation unter Berlin Mitte. Das ist
schon der zweite Talk heute. Wir begrüßen
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diesmal Alex. Hallo, Alex.
Alexander: Hallo. Guten Morgen.
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Herald: Alexander Sander zum Thema Public
Code in der Pandemie. Public Money, Public
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Code. Genauer gesagt. Also wir möchten
doch gerne für das sauer abgesparte
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Steuergeld auch Dinge zurückbekommen und
nicht Dinge, wo wir hinterher nicht ran
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dürfen und nicht reingucken dürfen und
nichts mit machen dürfen. Und welche
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Bedeutung das hat. Und warum das
langfristig noch wichtiger wird. Das wird
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Alex uns gleich lang und breit erklären.
So lang und so breit wie nötig. Bis
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ungefähr 1 Uhr. Und wenn ihr Fragen habt,
dann benutzt den Hashtag rc3 und dann
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werden wir versuchen das in dem Pad zu
materialisieren und noch kurz drüber zu
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sprechen um 1. Gut. Alex, dann halbe
Stunde für dich. Viel Spaß.
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Alex (De): Ja, vielen Dank.
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Alex (En): Good morning, everyone. 12:30
laughs hacker morning. That's that's
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lovely. Yeah. So in the next 30 minutes, I
will talk about the public money, public
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code and what role free software played
during the crisis and is still playing.
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And so my name is Alexander Sander. I'm
policy consultant of the Free Software
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Foundation Europe, and we are a charity
that empowers users to control technology.
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And yeah, we do believe that free software
plays a crucial role here. So to get us in
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the mood, I think you all remember it was
around March last year when the borders
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have been closed because of the crisis. So
we wanted to avoid contacts. And yeah, one
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solution back in the days was to close
borders. And as you know, free movement is
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a fundamental right. And to fix this
issue, software played important role and
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contact tracing apps, for example, have
been pushed on the market to fix this. And
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I will talk about this a bit later. And
also, we have seen us and many of us in
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home office and again here. Software, was
very important and as well free software
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played an important role. And as said in
the next minutes, I will tell you why and
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free software is important and as and
specifically what free software solutions
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helped us to tackle the crisis. So
everybody loves free software, especially,
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I think, around c-base and the Congress
free software is pretty well known.
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However, let me introduce you quickly the
concept of free software. So it's also
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sometimes called libre software, open
source software. But free software always
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comes with 4 freedoms, and it's the
freedom to use, study, share and improve.
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This means free software gives you the
freedom to use the software for any
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purpose you want. Without any
restrictions, you are free to study the
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code so it can be analyzed by anyone so
you can see the code. You can see what the
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software is going to do, what it does. You
also free to share the software without
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any limitations. So there are no like
license costs or something like this, so
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you can install it on as many workstations
as you want and so on. But here, please
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keep in mind the price doesn't matter. So
free is not coming with the price in
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general. So you can also sell free
software and this is also done, but you
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are free to share it afterwards. And also,
you are free to improve the software. You
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can modify it. And by this you can give
back to the community. And whenever we
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have these 4 freedoms to use, study, share
and improve, then it is free software or s
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said there are many names like open
source, libre software and so on. And
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these 4 freedoms helped us during the
crisis a lot when it came to software
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solutions to give you a better
understanding of the 4 freedoms I just
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named. In practical terms, I have this
slide here for you where I will first show
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you the problems of proprietary software.
So software, which is not coming with this
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4 freedoms and on the other hand, on a
practical way, the 4 freedoms as a
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solution for free software. So first, they
are. The major problem was proprietary
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software is that there is no
interoperability at all. You might have
NOTE Paragraph
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laughing this problem as well a lot. So it's the
thing that you are stuck in an ecosystem.
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And if you buy a piece of software from
one vendor, you always have to go back to
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this one vendor. To like broaden your
system, so programs are not working
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together, so there is no connection and
but as we call it interoperability, this
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is something we don't see at proprietary
software. But as you are coming into this
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vendor lock in, as said. If you buy one
piece of software, let's say office
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solution, then you need to buy a mail
program, or presentation thingy or
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something like this from the same vendor.
Because as you want, have want to have
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interoperability, these proprietary
vendors only give you interoperability in
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their own system. But if you want to go
out of the system, then you run into
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struggles, and there's no interoperability
at all. So this is a problem with data
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sharing with others, but also like
collaborative working and so on. And this
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also means that these pieces of software
came with unpredictable costs. So first of
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all, you have to buy a piece of software.
Then you do not know how much you have to
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pay for the other pieces you might need in
the future. But also, you don't know at
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one point you have to pay for upgrades for
updates and so on. And so it's really hard
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to estimate the costs for the software in
the future. And this is also a huge
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problem which is coming with proprietary
software. And also as you have to pay for
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the license first, and many also like for
a license for every workstation and so on.
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Your investments are lost so you can't
invest the money into the coding, but you
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just pay for licensing. And so that's why
your investments are also just lost in the
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very beginning. And we have seen during
the crisis I will show you some examples
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that's later that there's also a very low
acceptance by citizens if they have to, or
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if they are forced to use proprietary
software. And in the end, there are also
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security issues. As you can't look into
the code, you might don't find backdoors,
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for example, or you can't see if the
software is really is going to do what
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it's supposed to do. And so therefore
proprietary software also comes with
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security issues. And so on the other hand,
we have the solution. It's risk free
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software because we have there, we have
these open standards. This is coming from
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the 4 freedoms as you are free, for
example, to look in the code as you can
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modify it and so on, and as it based on
open standard we have this
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interoperability by default. And so we
can, like work together across borders,
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and it's very easy to collaborate if you
are using free software because you have
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these interoperability by default. Also
you are highly independent through the
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free licenses. So the 4 freedoms are
always guaranteed when it is free
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software, so you are free to modify and
adapt it to your needs. You are free to
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share it, to use it in as many
workstations as you want and so on, as
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just said. So you are highly independent,
by this you can also collaborate, and this
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is also something we have seen heavily
during the crisis. That collaboration is
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key, especially when it comes to global
crisis. We need to work across borders. We
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need to collaborate across borders. And so
this this collaboration, we can share
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risks, but also costs. So this is a big
advantage of free software and also you
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can involve local partners. So this is
especially something we see when it comes
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to the use of free software within
administrations, public bodies. So
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whenever governments are using free
software, then there's a huge involvement
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of local partners, which is also like a
strengthening not only the software
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project but also the region and so on. And
it is transparent by default, as you can
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see the code. This is very important. It's
also one of the freedoms. And because of
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this transparency, you can see the code.
And by this, you can, for example,
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identify bugs. You can fix bugs quickly.
And so free software gives you the
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advantage to make your software even more
secure. And so free software isn't secure
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by default, but you have the chance to
quickly find security issues, but also
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other issues and fix them immediately. So
and this is also a big advantage, so you
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don't have to go back to a vendor and ask
him if he can fix something. You can
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simply do it by your own or the community
can thus. So with all of this, you can
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also already see why it is a very good
idea to use free software in general, but
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also in particular during a crisis, which
is. What we have seen, especially during
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the corona crisis. So we need to work
together because global problems need
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global solutions, so as already said
during the corona crisis, we have seen a
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lot that there was free software around
and that that was very good, that we used
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free software and not proprietary
software. And that especially in the
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beginning, there were very interesting
debates around it. I think you might
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remember the tracing apps and so on, but
we have seen that here in global crisis
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the demands are very similar. So for
example, when it comes to contact tracing
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or something like this, we have seen that
specific software and specific hardware is
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and was needed. And for Home Office, for
example, or for remote working, we have
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seen this and especially with the tracing
and now we see certificate apps, we see
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that they are more or less the same
demands around the world. And especially
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if we look at Europe, they are more or
less the same solutions as we want to.
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Yeah, the European region without borders
and so on. And here again, the solution is
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that we need interoperability. So we need
these open standards to be able to
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collaborate, to work together and to also
use the free licenses and to spread the
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software as wide as possible. And also
that we need to foster the innovation and
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collaborate. So we have seen this a lot,
that it was very important that it's not
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only coders who work on a project and not
only a nation or a specific region working
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on a project, but that we have to involve
many stakeholders from many countries
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working on specific projects. And this is
only possible with free software as we can
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work and collaborate across borders. And
we have also seen that the transparency of
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free software gives us acceptance, and
this is very important, especially if you
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want to roll out software projects on a
very large level. You need acceptance,
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especially by citizens that they use the
systems, and therefore transparency is and
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also was key. And yeah, as said as you can
involve all stakeholders, this is also a
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big advantage. And I want to give you a
concrete example now, with the apps. I
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think most of you are using at least 1 or 2
of these laughing free software apps, which
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are around at the moment. And when the
debate started, it was also like one and a half
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years ago we were discussing these contact
tracing apps, and it was a discussion if
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it should be centralized, decentralized,
if it should be free software or
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proprietary software and so on. And we
very quickly jumped in with a press
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release and advocated around governments
with 3 demands, and they are still valid
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today. And the 1st demand is that no
matter what it is, these apps need to be
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used voluntarily. So this is not that much
on free software, but it's also a key that
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it's a voluntary. But then it also must
respect fundamental rights. So whenever
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these apps are introduced and when they
are health data, for example, in these
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apps are, then we must respect fundamental
rights, for example, the right to privacy
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and so on. And we can only see if
fundamental rights are protected, if the
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code is transparent and if you can prove
that the software is really going to do
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what it's supposed to do. And in the end,
so we set all of these apps and solutions
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need to be free software, and we have been
very successful with this demand and there
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was a very huge debate. And what makes us
very happy was that there was not only a
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debate and not only the apps have been
released as free software, but there were
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some fundamental statements during the
time, for example, from the World Health
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Organization. And they said they need to
be full, there need to be full
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transparency and these apps need to be
open sourced and also the European eHealth
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network. So this is the European
Commission and the member states of the
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European Union released the toolbox for
the member states, where they said already
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defined how these mobile applications need
to be designed in the European Union. And
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here they said also that it need to be
open sourced and. What makes us very happy
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that they're not just said it need to be
open source, but they also said it's good
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for reuse, it's good for interoperability,
it's good for the security and the
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transparency. And so they followed our
arguments fully, and this is very
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important that the European Union, but
also the World Health Organization,
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quickly understood that it's only free
software that can help us during this time
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and the crisis. And we have quickly seen
that there is this community engagement
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and that it's not just about hackers and
coders who improve apps, but it's also
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about translations, for example. So we
need people with language skills, but also
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especially when it comes to the tracing
apps. We also need, like scientists from
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all areas who can tell us how such a virus
spread and so on, and how we can trace it.
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So here we have seen how global
cooperation can work and can lead to a
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situation that we have a very good app in
the end, which helps us in this case for
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contact tracing in the very beginning. And
here you can see what happened on git, but
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also with the CovPass app. We have seen
that it's now available on F-droid.
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Unfortunately, in Germany the CovPass app,
so this is the app which gives you your
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COVID certificate that your vaccinated,
for example. And so in Germany, this app
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was free software, but it was not released
on F-droid and F-droid is a free software
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app store. So the yeah, the better app
store compared to Play Store, because in
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F-droid, you can only find free software.
But what happened is that the community
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again stepped in, so volunteers helped us
to make it possible that this app is now
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also available on F-droid and ?. Yeah,
it's also possible to use it on more
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devices than before, and it's also free to
use without any Google services, which is
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also very important when it comes to
privacy and so on. So here we have seen
00:17:34.710 --> 00:17:40.080
that with the use of free software, we can
make this app available to everyone and we
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can ensure that fundamental rights are
respected and that everything is based on
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free software and that you, for example,
don't need Google services to use these
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apps. But on the other hand, what happened
later? So after the good news, yeah, as
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said there are also always bad news. In
October last year, the European Commission
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released a Open-Source strategy, so just a
year later, after they said when it comes
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to the CovPass apps and COVID apps, where
they said it's important that they are
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transparent because of security reasons,
interoperability and so on, they gave
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themselves a strategy. So the European
Commission released an open source
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strategy for themselves how they want to
act and how they want to use free software
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in the future. And unfortunately, there
they watered down a lot. So it was not
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like that, they said. So now we learned,
and we want to have now everything on free
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software because this is our learning from
the crisis this is our learning from the
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last decades. No. They said they want to
release their solutions wherever it makes
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sense to do so as open source. And they
also want to be in the position to choose
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non open technologies where there are good
reasons to do so. So but at the same time,
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they never, ever defined what are good
reasons and where something makes sense.
00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:13.980
So this is completely open. And so what is
good, on the one hand, is that they have
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something like open source strategy so
that they are thinking about it, that they
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are giving themselves the strategy. But at
the same time, if they releasing this
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paper, with so many loopholes we fear that
there won't be a major change here. And I
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think or we do believe that not only the
crisis has shown us that free software is
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the way to go, but also like the last
decades and also before the crisis. We
00:19:40.790 --> 00:19:46.150
have advocating a lot around this, and we
have seen many administrations who have
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very good experience with free software,
not only when it comes to crisis but also
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in general. Again, think about Home
Office, think about video chats. What we
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are do using here today, jitsi a free
software tool, but also BigBlueButton, is
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for example one so nobody has to be forced
to use proprietary solutions like Zoom or
00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:13.410
something like this. So they are very good
free software tools on the market. And
00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:15.960
there are good reasons to use them,
especially when it comes to
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:21.970
administrations, because they are in
contact with citizens with us. And I think
00:20:21.970 --> 00:20:26.060
this is again a learning from the crisis.
Transparency, for example, is key, but
00:20:26.060 --> 00:20:32.620
also interoperability so that we are free
to use whatever device we want, but are
00:20:32.620 --> 00:20:38.990
still in the position to communicate with
administrations. So and they also said
00:20:38.990 --> 00:20:44.110
they want to set up a small, open source
program office. There is no budget at all
00:20:44.110 --> 00:20:51.310
for this. So what sounds very good from
the very first page, so »think open«
00:20:51.310 --> 00:20:57.980
that's the title of the strategy, turns
out to be a paper full of loopholes, and
00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:01.870
we are still in contact with the European
Commission in order to learn what they are
00:21:01.870 --> 00:21:07.350
doing. From what we have seen so far. It's
not that much. They just released another
00:21:07.350 --> 00:21:12.560
new paper. And um, but still, we don't see
any budget. We don't see any people
00:21:12.560 --> 00:21:17.930
working on this so that were specifically
hired for this after the strategy was
00:21:17.930 --> 00:21:24.210
introduced and so on. So, but yes. Stay
tuned. Hopefully we can release some news
00:21:24.210 --> 00:21:30.080
on this soonish on our website, but the
commission is very, let's say, closed when
00:21:30.080 --> 00:21:36.140
we ask about they think open strategy.
Which is at the same time, very strange.
00:21:36.140 --> 00:21:43.040
And so I said already before the crisis,
not only us, but 100s of organizations and
00:21:43.040 --> 00:21:48.870
also 10s of 1000s of individuals demanded
that publicly financed software must be be
00:21:48.870 --> 00:21:54.060
made publicly available under a free
software license. And I think with a
00:21:54.060 --> 00:21:59.870
crisis we have learned that it's now even
more important than ever before to tell
00:21:59.870 --> 00:22:06.260
administrations to convince
administrations to use free software, and
00:22:06.260 --> 00:22:11.380
it's not only about crisis, but it's also
about digital sovereignty, for example. So
00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:17.200
also for administrations, it's good to
know what a software does if they use it.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.810
So it's in the core of our state digital
infrastructure and therefore the
00:22:21.810 --> 00:22:25.900
administrations need to have the full
control over the software they are using.
00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:31.580
And this is also true for everybody else,
like for us individuals, but also for
00:22:31.580 --> 00:22:37.930
companies and civil society and so on. So
it's in terms of digital sovereignty, a
00:22:37.930 --> 00:22:44.610
very good idea to use free software. But
it's also about our money. It's public
00:22:44.610 --> 00:22:49.210
money, it's taxpayers money and public
bodies are financed through taxes, and
00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:52.110
that's why they have to make sure they
spend their funds in the most efficient
00:22:52.110 --> 00:22:57.920
way possible. And as I've shown to you, I
think there's only 1 solution and this is
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:07.500
free software in the and. And to give you
1 number here and just imagine this money
00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:12.520
would have been invested in free software
in the last years. So the governments and
00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:17.550
public bodies, public administrations are
the largest purchasers of IT goods and
00:23:17.550 --> 00:23:23.700
services, and they comprise up to 27% of
the revenue of software firms. And so now
00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:29.250
just think about if we would use these 27%
and invest it in free software and think
00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:34.080
about the solutions we would have had
during the crisis already, for example, to
00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:40.380
be able to have a secure workspace for
Home Office and so on, but also to be
00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:48.770
available to be in a digital
administrations. And so I think this
00:23:48.770 --> 00:23:54.350
number is very important and shows us that
there are many investments lost because we
00:23:54.350 --> 00:24:00.100
are or administrations are still buying
proprietary software and didn't switch to
00:24:00.100 --> 00:24:07.350
free software. So in the end, free
software gives you the many advantages you
00:24:07.350 --> 00:24:13.060
can as said involve local partners. So
whenever administrations or public bodies
00:24:13.060 --> 00:24:17.620
are procuring free software, we can see
that it's also strengthening the local
00:24:17.620 --> 00:24:25.040
economy so licensing fees are not going
anymore to Ireland and the U.S., but it's
00:24:25.040 --> 00:24:30.190
also highly efficient, so you don't have
to reinvent the wheel again and again. So
00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:34.980
administrations all over the world have
pretty much more or less the same demands.
00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:39.150
And so why do we have to reinvent the
wheel again and again and buy one piece of
00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:44.840
software again and again? And so there's
absolutely no reason. And it would be way
00:24:44.840 --> 00:24:48.730
more efficient to collaborate. And we can
also see that when administrations are
00:24:48.730 --> 00:24:55.360
doing this, it's happening. And also
again, we have this digital sovereignty,
00:24:55.360 --> 00:25:02.360
so you can have software which is tailored
to your needs and you can modify it
00:25:02.360 --> 00:25:07.360
whenever you want and adapt to your needs.
And it's not just like a vendors business
00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:11.300
model what you are following. And so
therefore free software is a very good
00:25:11.300 --> 00:25:16.870
idea. So if you are in line with our
arguments and if you like our arguments,
00:25:16.870 --> 00:25:22.240
you are still free to sign our campaign.
So 3 years, 4 years ago now. We started
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:28.130
our comparing public money public code
where we demand that whenever it's public
00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:34.400
money, the code should be also public. And
so we want legislation requiring that
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:39.880
publicly financed software developed for
the public sector, need to be made
00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:45.632
publicly available under a free software
license. And we are seeing more and more
00:25:45.632 --> 00:25:51.940
treaties and also, for example, in the
coalition treaty in Germany, we have some
00:25:51.940 --> 00:25:56.420
sentences on the use of free software. And
so we see that there is some progress
00:25:56.420 --> 00:26:03.320
here. But still, we only need not only we
need to do more pressure here, we have to
00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:09.750
fight for public money, public code still,
and we see more and more commitments. But
00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:15.090
at the same time, we need to also follow
up with the implementation. As we have
00:26:15.090 --> 00:26:19.020
seen, for example, with the European
Commission, their open source strategy,
00:26:19.020 --> 00:26:23.830
which is called think open but full of
loopholes. Now it's important to see that
00:26:23.830 --> 00:26:29.190
there is a good implementation because
this is key. Papers are important. Sure,
00:26:29.190 --> 00:26:32.640
this is a 1st step, but now we need to
make sure that there's also a proper
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:39.500
implementation. And if you want to support
us with our demand, you can also sign this
00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:43.350
campaign. If you haven't done already or
reach out to us, we have several
00:26:43.350 --> 00:26:49.260
activities. We have an activity package
telling you how you can contact your local
00:26:49.260 --> 00:26:53.340
administration and convince them to use
free software. Lots of our volunteers are
00:26:53.340 --> 00:26:59.330
doing this, sometimes successfully. And so
I think this is important that we continue
00:26:59.330 --> 00:27:04.760
to talk about the advantages of free
software and also use the example from the
00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:11.340
crisis, I just have shown to you and
continue our efforts to convince
00:27:11.340 --> 00:27:18.930
administration to switch to free software.
And with this, I want to end my talk and
00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:24.940
would be up for questions if there are
some in the pad, in the meantime.
00:27:24.940 --> 00:27:34.330
Herald: Thank thank you very, very much.
There's essentially 1 question popping up
00:27:34.330 --> 00:27:41.400
on our pads here. And this is about this
term of digital sovereignty and whether
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:49.330
digital sovereignty funded by national
state actors would eventually mean that we
00:27:49.330 --> 00:27:54.540
are sooner or later hacking for the
national security agencies of our
00:27:54.540 --> 00:28:01.060
countries. And what that would imply to
for free software and the ethics of free
00:28:01.060 --> 00:28:07.160
software.
Alex: I mean, there was a bit of
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:12.970
background noise, so I'm not sure if I
fully got it, but it's about if we would
00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:22.760
like, if our community would like hack or
fix governments software, if this is in
00:28:22.760 --> 00:28:25.980
line with the ethical principles of free
software, was this was, was this the
00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:36.710
question or did I get it wrong?
H: Yes. (not audible)
00:28:36.710 --> 00:28:45.340
A: But I'll try to I try to address this,
I think. Yeah. Governmental bodies are
00:28:45.340 --> 00:28:51.830
using free software or should use free
software as they are handling our data as
00:28:51.830 --> 00:28:59.650
they are communicating with us. And for
sure, also governmental bodies are using
00:28:59.650 --> 00:29:05.810
software for surveillance, for example,
for reasons we might personally don't
00:29:05.810 --> 00:29:14.340
like. And this is very different. So and
nobody should be forced to like invest the
00:29:14.340 --> 00:29:22.920
time or resources to have governments to
fix their software. And it's also again on
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:29.910
procurement so as said free software
doesn't need to be priceless. So although
00:29:29.910 --> 00:29:36.950
for us, it's important that if public
bodies are using software, then whatever,
00:29:36.950 --> 00:29:43.460
it is it should be free software and this
gives us the chance to see code and, for
00:29:43.460 --> 00:29:50.050
example, to discuss. And this also opens
debates. If you want a solution which is
00:29:50.050 --> 00:29:55.120
going to work like this, and this doesn't
necessarily mean that we contribute to the
00:29:55.120 --> 00:30:01.720
code, but we can also contribute to a
software by discussing what it does. Is
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:04.920
this something we want to have for our
society. Is this a software we really
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:11.270
need? And this is, I think, only possible
if we have something like, for example, a
00:30:11.270 --> 00:30:17.690
repository for governmental software which
is used and then we can like check what
00:30:17.690 --> 00:30:24.710
this is, what they are doing. And it
doesn't mean that that you have to do it,
00:30:24.710 --> 00:30:27.710
but you are free to do it. And I think
this is important and this is also what we
00:30:27.710 --> 00:30:35.370
have seen during the crisis. So there are
some general or fundamental discussions
00:30:35.370 --> 00:30:41.510
about the apps and about tracing and so
on. But this is possible because it is
00:30:41.510 --> 00:30:44.900
free software, and that doesn't mean that
you have to contribute to the code or that
00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:50.480
you have to use it. So as we said, it's
important that it's that people can use it
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:56.740
voluntarily, but still you can contribute
even if you just debate around it. So and
00:30:56.740 --> 00:31:00.520
I think this is important and that is why
we want free software. And I think in the
00:31:00.520 --> 00:31:03.710
end, it's better to have a free software
project where you can see what the
00:31:03.710 --> 00:31:07.540
software does and that are a government
tells you transparently what they are
00:31:07.540 --> 00:31:11.030
going to do instead of doing it completely
secretly.
00:31:11.030 --> 00:31:20.470
H: Very well, so that demonstrates that we
that we have maybe another problem or a
00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:26.030
new problem, but a constructive one,
something we can work on. And this whole
00:31:26.030 --> 00:31:31.890
issue of digital sovereignty and national
state actors must be discussed. As you
00:31:31.890 --> 00:31:39.130
said, this was the main question from the
pad. So thank you for the talk this
00:31:39.130 --> 00:31:41.980
morning.
A: Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, it
00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:45.030
was fun. And yeah,enjoy the rest of the
conference then.
00:31:45.030 --> 00:31:53.690
H: Yes, I hope you do too. Thank you.
A: Yeah. Thanks a lot. See you. Bye bye.
00:31:53.690 --> 00:31:59.390
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