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33C3 preroll music
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Herald: “On the internet[br]you decide what you do, right?”
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This is a question that I found on[br]your website RespectMyNet.eu.
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And well, I don’t know what you[br]think, it sounds quite plausible.
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But the answer that they give is:[br]“Maybe not!” So, who that is,
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who actually decides what[br]you do on the internet and
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what consequences that has,[br]and what you can do against that –
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these two men will tell you now.[br]They are Thomas Lohninger
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who fought against data retention[br]in Austria – and successfully –
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and he has been very active[br]in that politics ever since.
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He is here with Christopher Talib,[br]Campaign Manager for LaQuadratureDeNet,
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the French NGO fighting[br]for civil rights. Welcome!
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Together they say: Make[br]the Internet neutral again!
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Please give them[br]a warm applause!
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applause
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Thomas Lohninger: Thanks, everyone![br]Is the microphone working? Yeah, great.
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So, first I have to say[br]something for that title,
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if the slides could come up?…
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Okay, we don’t have slides so far.[br]Christopher Talib: Yes we do!
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Lohninger: So. “Make the internet neutral[br]again”. When we decided to have this title
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for our talk this was of course[br]before Donald Trump became elected.
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Most of our talk will be about how to[br]enforce net neutrality, how to really
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keep the internet free and open. But[br]of course we also have to talk about
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what will happen in the US. We both worked[br]on the savetheinternet.eu campaign.
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This common effort of various NGOs[br]around Europe started three years ago
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when the Commission proposed a very[br]disastrous law on net neutrality
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that would basically abandon the[br]principle. And we followed this law
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throughout the legislative process on[br]all stages, and then even through,
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with the regulatory implementation.[br]And this…
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you can all see on savetheinternet.eu[br]there’s now an archive page. Because…
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let’s talk a little bit more about this[br]campaign. What is unique here is
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that we really open-sourced every line of[br]code that we wrote for this campaign.
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Including the tools that we used[br]for contacting your representatives,
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the Members of the European Parliament[br]as well as the regulatory agencies.
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And here you see the traffic graph because[br]we also have visitor statistics from Piwik
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throughout these three years. And there[br]you can see that we had huge success
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from various players around Europe.[br]From the Netherlands, from… a huge
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shoutout to the Reddit community, they[br]were awesome! And also change.org,
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netzpolitik.org, and Alexander[br]Lehmann helped us a lot.
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As well as Firefox which ran a snippet[br]for savetheinternet in the last parts
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of the campaign. And in the final stages[br]of this fight for net neutrality in Europe
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we really brought the protests to the[br]streets. There were demonstrations
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in Barcelona, Riga, Bonn, Brussels[br]and Vienna. And this was really
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a group effort. At the end this coalition[br]grew more and more, and we had 23 NGOs
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from 14 countries that joined us[br]in this. And, ultimatively, we
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achieved almost half a million submissions[br]to BEREC, the “Body of European Regulators
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for Electronic Communications”. And this[br]is really a historic number. Because
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all previous consultations of the regulators[br]in Europe had a maximum of around
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100 comments. So, no, in all that process[br]they had so much public interest
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and engagement. And this really changed[br]the landscape within the regulators
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because suddenly they were observed by the[br]public, and before that they were basically
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hiding behind some processes, and[br]not really having to engage with
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their own constituency. If you look at[br]the submissions by country you can see
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that Germany has the largest share.[br]This is of course because the debate
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here in Germany is a little bit[br]more nuanced and widespread
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than in other countries. But still we also[br]had the UK and France, and Spain and Italy
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that contributed a lot through this[br]campaign. But I also, being an Austrian,
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want to point out that a few small[br]countries disproportionately contributed
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with submissions. Austria, Sweden, Denmark[br]and Belgium really kicked ass, and that’s
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probably because they had very good NGOs[br]that, although most of them only run
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with volunteers could really mobilize in[br]their local language to get the word out,
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and get people engaged for net neutrality.[br]So. We now have this law.
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And we also have the regulatory[br]implementation. So what does it
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actually say? What type of net neutrality[br]do we have now in Europe
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for half a Billion people?[br]It is no longer possible to just
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block or censor content based on[br]commercial reasons. So you can
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no longer prohibit users the use of[br]VOIP, or messaging, or file sharing
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in the Terms of Services. There can still[br]be blocking for legal reasons. If you have
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a law, if you have a Court order. But an[br]ISP can not arbitrarily start blocking
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parts of the internet. This is clearly[br]prohibited. We have a new right.
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We have a ‘device freedom’ now. That means[br]that you can connect any type of device
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to your internet connection. And your ISP[br]can no longer charge you e.g. for using
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your phones internet on your laptop,[br]tethering. That’s really cleared (?) and
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absolutely clear. Also on “specialized[br]services”, I’m particularly happy
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that we reached this result because this[br]was maybe 60% of the whole debate
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in the European Parliament and throughout[br]the legislative process: what should we do
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with “specialized services”? And[br]originally, they were intended to be
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the loophole for net neutrality, to[br]circumvent the whole net neutrality
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by just making some service[br]a specialized service. But now we really
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limited this danger to something that is[br]handleable, and now a specialized service
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can only be something which could[br]technically not work over the open internet.
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And you can see this clear here, I mean,[br]that’s a picture from the video
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that Facebook shows you when you have[br]your birthday. And I found this so telling,
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because this power plug with a Facebook[br]sign is exactly what a specialized service
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in the bad reading would be. It is[br]no longer a universal connection
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that allows you to use every device[br]with this network. Instead, it’s just
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for one service. And if we go down that[br]road we lose the universal character
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of the internet which allows us to do[br]everything with it. Every invention,
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every idea on equal footing.[br]With this model it is one Facebook plug,
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one Google plug and so forth. Another[br]important issue that is still ongoing,
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and not as clear as the previous ones is[br]Zero-Rating. Zero-Rating is the practice
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of exempting certain services from[br]your data cap. So you have your 2 GB
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but Whatsapp does not count towards[br]those 2 GB. The new rules say
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this has to be handled on a case-by-case[br]basis. So it’s quite dubious to see
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how this will play out. We have a few[br]rulings now, from Austria, Sweden
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and one from Hungary.[br]But this is really an ongoing process.
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What is clear is that you can not technically[br]discriminate stuff with Zero-Rating.
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So you cannot, say, after you used up[br]your data cap and the rest of the internet
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is blocked, you can still use the zero-rated[br]application. This is clearly prohibited.
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But about the Zero-Rating itself[br]– it’s an ongoing process.
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Traffic Management – the last issue –[br]is the day-by-day operations of a network.
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So what do you do when you have a[br]congestion, when there is too much traffic
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and the pipe is not big enough, how do you[br]handle these? And we have a principle
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that says Traffic Management has to be[br]application-agnostic, so everything
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has to be treated the same,[br]but you can have exceptions,
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for class-based traffic management, based[br]on Quality-of-Service characteristics.
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But the burden of proof here lies with[br]the ISPs. If the ISP wants to manage
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their traffic they have to really have[br]a justification why this is necessary
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and in line with the new law. And[br]we will closely monitor how ISPs
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make this transparent and how NRAs[br]will handle this. We’re not really happy
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about the result on this one,[br]but it’s still a workable text.
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And now I’m gonna[br]hand over to my colleague.
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Christopher: Thank you Thomas.[br]You hear me well? Okay.
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Basically, RespectMyNet is[br]a grassroot tool we use for campaigning
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for net neutrality. It was built to try[br]to see what kind of infraction
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and violation you could see on net[br]neutrality. It’s an old tool, it has already
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a few years. We rebooted it[br]for the last campaign for the BEREC
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that Thomas told you about. And, basically,[br]what it does… what we will use it now
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is to try to see how ISPs and operators[br]are going to implement net neutrality
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regulation in Europe. So, you know[br]what we have it’s a law, we have,
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as Thomas could say, different concepts[br]that allows good things and also
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bad things. However, the question is that,[br]to know how those things are going to be
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implemented. So what it is now: We’d[br]like to crowdsource the search
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for net neutrality violation.[br]Basically, this tool allows you to input
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and to see if there are net neutrality[br]violations, or in your country,
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or by your operator.
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It could have crowdsourced documents[br]of all types of net neutrality violation
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in Europe. And also it could be… we have[br]a “Me, too!” button that allows you to say
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if you experienced this as well. And[br]so you don’t feel alone in front of your
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internet connection, having problems[br]and wondering if this is your connection,
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or if this is a contract-based or general[br]complication from the operator.
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You could see that if other[br]people already have it.
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But crowdsourcing most of the net[br]neutrality violations is not enough.
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What we’ll do if all those violations,[br]when you just say: “Ah, they’re doing
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bad stuff, well.” As you say in[br]French: “That makes a good leg.”
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But yeah, that joke, that cannot[br]be translated, really. laughs
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Basically, we will be using that to fix[br]those violations. And to arouse people
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to actually see… that’s… pinpointing[br]and to notice all types of violations
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that allows you to fix them. When[br]the BEREC will review the regulation
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on net neutrality, and he will do that,[br]periodically. We can go and arrive
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with huge documents, saying, there are[br]problems here.. here.. here and there.
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So, I’m already skipping in front, of my[br]clicking ‘Next Slide’. And it’s a huge
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documentation, and in our activist world[br]of internet where everything is very,
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very quick, and we are very quick on[br]new information, it's hugely important
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to have good documentation and to[br]remember what happened before, and
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so it does not happen again. Especially on[br]net neutrality, as this campaign has been
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ongoing for several years now.[br]The second thing that’s interesting
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for that type of tools is to allow telecom[br]regulators to be accountable. So e.g.
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French National Regulation Agency really[br]likes this tool because they can see
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what private companies are doing more or[br]less behind their back. To give an example:
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Belgium Telecom operators, e.g. Belgacom[br]or Proximus waited for the publication
0:12:39.420,0:12:44.260
of the net neutrality regulation. And when[br]they saw that Zero-Rating was more-or-less
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accepted but only will be blocked[br]on a case-by-case decision
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they published and they issued a lot of new[br]contracts on subscription with Zero-Rating.
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So e.g. you have that one also in Germany,[br]if I recall well, that you can use
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your data caps on your mobile device[br]until a certain amount. But when you
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reach that amount everything is down-speed[br]except Whatsapp. And that’s seen
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as a net neutrality violation. And[br]that’s a really good example of
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what Zero-Rating is. And that actually[br]should be illegal. And that’s why we have
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RespectMyNet. It’s fairly easy to use and[br]very low cost of time because when you see
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what issues you have on your computer[br]and you can check it out if you have
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a violation. Usually you can see that[br]already in your contract. And that’s why
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we created a fairly easy form.
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As you could understand this is a very[br]complicated issue and that involves
0:13:48.340,0:13:53.300
a lot of different elements, especially[br]when there are elements from law,
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there are elements from telecom regulation…[br]But we try to make it as simple as possible.
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And so you can see the different points[br]on country, type of operator, the contract
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you have, is it a fixed or mobile line you[br]have, and also the type of discrimination
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you can see. Here you have just Zero-Rating[br]because that would be the biggest type
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of discrimination we will experience in[br]the next years. However, you still have
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throttling, class-based,[br]contract-based etc.
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When you input that kind of[br]discrimination on RespectMyNet.eu,
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behind the scene on the backstage we have[br]a team that will review cases, and to see
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if there is enough information to use that[br]as a good case. E.g. if you just tell us:
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“My internet is slow”, that is not enough.[br]That’s why we try to make enough questions,
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enough place for you to describe, to give[br]as much information as you could
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to develop that. And that have to return[br]on the web page. And after that
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we gathered all that information which is[br]no personal identification information,
0:15:09.570,0:15:15.370
that were just identification on the type[br]of cases. RespectMyNet.eu is a tool that
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has been ongoing development because[br]we’re trying to use it for something
0:15:22.520,0:15:30.190
that it has not been programmed for. And[br]now we’re using it (?) to be fixed. E.g.
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to have a fixed type of sign flag,
0:15:36.790,0:15:44.540
let’s say, on that it is searching[br]a violation. We are going to develop
0:15:44.540,0:15:49.130
linguistic admin groups because e.g.[br]I don’t speak German, and when you have
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an input from a German speaking[br]it’s difficult to understand what it is.
0:15:53.750,0:15:59.490
Especially when it’s linked to the contract.[br]And we’re trying to develop visualization
0:15:59.490,0:16:04.320
of cases, so if you are a graphic designer[br]or data visualizator, Affissionador (?) you’re
0:16:04.320,0:16:10.270
welcome to help us. Basically,[br]RespectMyNet, as everything most of us do
0:16:10.270,0:16:15.580
it’s free like in Free Speech and[br]like in free beer. It’s easy to use,
0:16:15.580,0:16:21.870
it’s crowd-sourced database. So if you[br]like databases come play with us
0:16:21.870,0:16:26.210
and really get involved with that because[br]there is a tremendous amount of work
0:16:26.210,0:16:32.380
on a subject that does not involve[br]terrorism which lately very scares.
0:16:32.380,0:16:37.080
We have everything of the information on[br]our Git lab. You have the address here
0:16:37.080,0:16:41.700
at git.laquadrature.net. You’ll have,[br]anyway, that on the front page
0:16:41.700,0:16:48.140
and you have information on our wiki,[br]it’s wiki.laquadrature.net. Now, we’ll
0:16:48.140,0:16:52.460
speak now on the future thing,[br]and I’ll let… this thing.. to Thomas.
0:16:52.460,0:17:00.160
Thomas: Thank you Chris. So, how can we[br]use this tool? How can we use RespectMyNet
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because we now enter a stage[br]on net neutrality as well as with
0:17:05.039,0:17:11.480
the new general data protection regulation[br]in Europe where we have quite good laws
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but now we have to deliver them to the[br]people. Because it’s now of much value
0:17:15.619,0:17:21.559
if you have privacy in principle but your[br]data actually is in the hands of someone else.
0:17:21.559,0:17:26.659
And the same with net neutrality:[br]it doesn’t matter if you are not allowed
0:17:26.659,0:17:31.240
to block services when, in fact, your[br]internet is restricted by your ISP.
0:17:31.240,0:17:36.230
And what we will do, particularly as[br]epicenter.works is our organization
0:17:36.230,0:17:42.720
we have the high priority to really work[br]on delivering net neutrality to the people.
0:17:42.720,0:17:47.580
There is this concept of strategic litigation[br]which is well in place in the U.S.
0:17:47.580,0:17:52.389
The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)[br]as well as the Electronic Frontier Foundation
0:17:52.389,0:17:58.120
pick their cases really litigate for[br]fundamental rights in a strategic way.
0:17:58.120,0:18:03.549
And we want to apply these concepts now to[br]net neutrality. And we’ve already done that
0:18:03.549,0:18:10.940
in one case. We looked at the violation of[br]an Austrian mobile operator, 3/Hutchinson
0:18:10.940,0:18:16.519
and dated exactly this type of Zero-Rating[br]that I explained earlier as clearly prohibited
0:18:16.519,0:18:20.889
where you have this one graph [curve],[br]which is the violet one, which is
0:18:20.889,0:18:27.259
the public broadcaster in Austria,[br]and when you reach the data cap,
0:18:27.259,0:18:33.299
the 2130 seconds, it goes down to[br]a flat line. But free mobile TV service,
0:18:33.299,0:18:37.790
their in-house television service,[br]continues to run without interference.
0:18:37.790,0:18:41.499
So that’s a classical technical[br]discrimination between applications
0:18:41.499,0:18:46.630
which is clearly prohibited. We submitted[br]a case, it was successful, they cancelled
0:18:46.630,0:18:52.070
this type of violation for all new[br]contracts and they changed the landscape
0:18:52.070,0:18:56.330
of all their contracts. Because they could[br]no longer give their own services
0:18:56.330,0:19:03.100
a competitive advantage, they[br]quadrupled up to 17 times the amount
0:19:03.100,0:19:07.980
of volume that you can buy with this operator.[br]And this is not a singular phenomenon.
0:19:07.980,0:19:12.929
We have similar cases in the Netherlands[br]as well as with Slovenia. Once an ISP
0:19:12.929,0:19:17.289
is no longer allowed to give preferential[br]treatment to their own service
0:19:17.289,0:19:22.299
they start giving more volume to all[br]their subscribers which is, of course,
0:19:22.299,0:19:28.540
a really good thing. But, as I said,[br]Zero-Rating is one of the biggest problems
0:19:28.540,0:19:34.929
that we have and if you want to put it in[br]numbers: ca. 40% of all internet providers
0:19:34.929,0:19:39.470
in Europe currently zero-rate at least[br]one application. So this is really
0:19:39.470,0:19:44.279
an endemic problem that you can find[br]in almost every network and country,
0:19:44.279,0:19:48.679
and so we really have to do something[br]about it. Because there are drastic scenarios
0:19:48.679,0:19:53.419
that are in front of us. Mark Suckerberg[br]announced two times already that he wants
0:19:53.419,0:19:59.679
to bring his walled garden, called ‘Free[br]Basic’, previously ‘internet.org’,
0:19:59.679,0:20:05.059
also to Europe. He recently also announced[br]that he wants to bring Free Basic
0:20:05.059,0:20:13.129
to the U.S. and in the U.S. we[br]have quite a hard time ahead.
0:20:13.129,0:20:16.679
Donald Trump is not really a fan of net[br]neutrality, from the few comments that
0:20:16.679,0:20:20.649
we could analyze so far. And if you look[br]at the three people that he appointed
0:20:20.649,0:20:26.201
to his Transition Team for the regulator,[br]the FCC in the U.S., there is
0:20:26.201,0:20:31.270
a quite horrible outlook. Jeffrey Eisenach[br]as well as Mark Jamison and Roslyn Layton
0:20:31.270,0:20:37.309
are hardcore telecom lobbyists. And you[br]can really get a picture of what’s coming
0:20:37.309,0:20:42.389
in the U.S. if you look at the paper[br]“Beyond net neutrality” from Mark Jamison
0:20:42.389,0:20:48.100
and Roslyn Layton from June of this year.[br]What they propose here is to basically
0:20:48.100,0:20:53.650
replace all net neutrality rules with[br]a multi stakeholder concept.
0:20:53.650,0:20:57.980
But they have a very unique interpretation[br]of what ‘multi stakeholder’ means.
0:20:57.980,0:21:02.499
They only limit this multi stakeholder[br]group to the 20 biggest industry players.
0:21:02.499,0:21:07.809
They explicitly say: “No civil society, no[br]consumer protection, no scientists”.
0:21:07.809,0:21:12.690
So it’s basically the industry making their[br]own rules. They also propose new barriers
0:21:12.690,0:21:17.249
for every type of ex-ante regulation[br]of the FCC. So that’s basically
0:21:17.249,0:21:21.519
putting net neutrality in the bin[br]in the U.S. which would also risk
0:21:21.519,0:21:25.929
their competitive advantage that the U.S.[br]has right now as the power house
0:21:25.929,0:21:30.409
of all startup innovation. If this really[br]comes through then only the startups
0:21:30.409,0:21:35.779
that partner up with existing monopolies[br]have a chance to compete.
0:21:35.779,0:21:42.309
In Europe we also have a quite[br]worrying proposal. Part of the legacy
0:21:42.309,0:21:49.169
of Guenther Oettinger. He proposed in[br]September of this year a new regulation
0:21:49.169,0:21:54.260
for BEREC. Who here knows what BEREC is?[br]Hands up!
0:21:54.260,0:21:59.090
Oh! Actually quite a few, that’s good.[br]BEREC is the umbrella above the European
0:21:59.090,0:22:03.919
regulators for the internet. And it’s an[br]agency that has done quite a good job
0:22:03.919,0:22:09.320
on various occasions. They are voice of[br]reason, they have quite a good model
0:22:09.320,0:22:15.070
to really incorporate different views and[br]what the Commission is proposing
0:22:15.070,0:22:22.209
with this new law is basically replacing[br]this agency, making it into an independent
0:22:22.209,0:22:28.320
legal personality, and having that complete[br]control on all levels from the Commission.
0:22:28.320,0:22:35.269
So in this law you can find the Commission[br]writing itself into this independent agency
0:22:35.269,0:22:38.920
on many, many occasions. And[br]the most obscure outcome of this is
0:22:38.920,0:22:43.219
the Executive Director as well as the[br]quite powerful Board of Appeals
0:22:43.219,0:22:48.039
they will be chosen by regulators, but only[br]from a list precompiled by the European
0:22:48.039,0:22:55.119
Commission. And that’s quite[br]a communistic tradition of democracy.
0:22:55.119,0:22:58.770
And we have to follow this dossier[br]closely. It is now entering
0:22:58.770,0:23:04.179
the legislative process in the EU and if[br]this would go through as it was proposed
0:23:04.179,0:23:09.480
this would basically mean that the agencies[br]in task of enforcing net neutrality
0:23:09.480,0:23:13.909
are under complete power grab of the[br]European Commission which has proven,
0:23:13.909,0:23:18.179
times and times again, that it is[br]mostly interested in industry policy
0:23:18.179,0:23:23.370
but not really in the citizen’s interest.
0:23:23.370,0:23:27.169
For all of that we need you to put[br]the violations that you come across
0:23:27.169,0:23:32.390
in your daily internet experience into[br]RespectMyNet.eu as well as write to
0:23:32.390,0:23:37.210
team@epicenter.works because we[br]are also very interested in learning
0:23:37.210,0:23:41.009
about the violations that are out there.[br]And about really finding partners
0:23:41.009,0:23:46.710
in various countries before we can submit[br]cases to the regulators in that country
0:23:46.710,0:23:52.070
and really keep the internet free[br]and open. You can put it like that:
0:23:52.070,0:23:55.389
with this new net neutrality law we[br]now have a tool box to really keep
0:23:55.389,0:24:00.379
the internet open. And with RespectMyNet[br]we have a crowd-sourced todo list
0:24:00.379,0:24:05.809
of all the violations that we have to get[br]rid of. Thanks for your attention!
0:24:05.809,0:24:11.529
And as a last word: we were previously THIS[br]organization, now we are THIS organization,
0:24:11.529,0:24:14.360
we changed our name. Thanks!
0:24:14.360,0:24:26.590
applause
0:24:26.590,0:24:32.009
Herald: I think we have time for a few[br]more questions. So please step up
0:24:32.009,0:24:42.270
to the microphones if you have[br]one and I’ll call your number.
0:24:42.270,0:24:46.240
Nobody so far, is there[br]a question from the internet?
0:24:46.240,0:24:51.100
Also not. So you answered all open[br]questions exhaustively. That is great.
0:24:51.100,0:24:52.830
Christopher: No, there’s a question there…[br]Herald: There is a question?
0:24:52.830,0:24:55.490
Oh, up there! Well then, number 5.[br]Please, go ahead!
0:24:55.490,0:25:02.970
Question: Hi, my question as an IT guy is:
0:25:02.970,0:25:11.759
do you think about automating the[br]process to file these complaints?
0:25:11.759,0:25:18.280
So, I’m thinking about people who run[br]out [of] their quota per month and,
0:25:18.280,0:25:26.340
say, can easily start an app which checks[br]about 50 different services to see
0:25:26.340,0:25:30.029
which service is performing good,[br]and which not, and automatically
0:25:30.029,0:25:35.619
do a complaint on your side?[br]Something like that?
0:25:35.619,0:25:39.160
Christopher: If I understand well your question[br]that if we are planning to automate
0:25:39.160,0:25:44.640
the system of inputting subscriptions…[br]input in[to] RespectMyNet?
0:25:44.640,0:25:45.840
Question: Yeah!
0:25:45.840,0:25:51.909
Christopher: The thing is that that would only[br]cover a certain type of violation.
0:25:51.909,0:25:58.100
It won’t e.g. – don’t think in what[br]I understood – it won’t be able to cover
0:25:58.100,0:26:03.049
e.g. contract-based violations.
0:26:03.049,0:26:05.940
But that could be an idea, why not.
0:26:05.940,0:26:09.580
Thomas: Maybe, if you go to RespectMyNet.eu[br]you’ll find a list of the measurement tools
0:26:09.580,0:26:14.739
that are out there right now. The software[br]that you can use on your own computer
0:26:14.739,0:26:20.350
to test if your internet connection is[br]open and neutral. But most of the software
0:26:20.350,0:26:27.320
is abandonware. Sadly, it has not been[br]updated in quite a few years. And then
0:26:27.320,0:26:33.159
we need more developers to actively engage[br]in those software tools. And I hope now
0:26:33.159,0:26:38.429
that more people will do that because[br]the threat in the U.S. is quite real and
0:26:38.429,0:26:44.679
we need better software. Automated testing[br]happens as part of some Bittorrent clients
0:26:44.679,0:26:50.759
e.g. which upload their data to[br]Measurementlab. And there are
0:26:50.759,0:26:56.289
some programs like that but[br]none really on a wide scale.
0:26:56.289,0:27:00.299
Herald: Okay. So, the next one is the[br]person on microphone no. 3, please.
0:27:00.299,0:27:07.509
Question: Yes, I have a question regarding[br]the regulation to reform BEREC.
0:27:07.509,0:27:12.909
Are you planning to fight this regulation,[br]and if so, and if not, are there
0:27:12.909,0:27:17.140
any ways to fight it for the rest of us?
0:27:17.140,0:27:23.299
Thomas: Thanks for being eager! Yes,[br]we are now… this is just the beginning
0:27:23.299,0:27:30.590
of this dossier. So it has been[br]proposed September 14, 2016.
0:27:30.590,0:27:34.789
And now the Parliament and the Council[br]are just slowly starting to work on it and
0:27:34.789,0:27:40.259
it’s part of a much bigger package of[br]legislation called the Telecom Code.
0:27:40.259,0:27:46.139
And we are in ongoing conversations[br]with the legislators and the various
0:27:46.139,0:27:51.809
political parties to see what is the best[br]strategy. And if we think that there is
0:27:51.809,0:27:56.149
a reason to really have a campaign then[br]we will have one. But right now it is
0:27:56.149,0:27:59.240
too early to say.[br]Question: Thanks!
0:27:59.240,0:28:04.059
Herald: Okay, thank you very much! And[br]the next person on microphone no.3!
0:28:04.059,0:28:08.769
Question: Thank you very much for[br]an excellent talk. For Savetheinternet
0:28:08.769,0:28:16.250
there was a lot of national NGOs active.[br]And with this proposed power grab of BEREC
0:28:16.250,0:28:22.350
how can we at a national level help[br]support the telcom.. tel-regulators nationally
0:28:22.350,0:28:25.669
to save the net neutrality?
0:28:25.669,0:28:30.749
Thomas: The best thing to do right now[br]would be to speak with your telecom
0:28:30.749,0:28:37.230
infrastructure ministry, whoever is[br]responsible of this in the European Council
0:28:37.230,0:28:41.949
because they are the ones that are now[br]forming their opinion. And I know from
0:28:41.949,0:28:46.100
quite a few countries where this is really[br]an open situation, so they are welcoming
0:28:46.100,0:28:50.610
input from citizens. And they, of course,[br]speak with the Members of the European
0:28:50.610,0:28:55.519
Parliament from your country. They are[br]the ones ultimatively voting on this.
0:28:55.519,0:28:59.600
I’m not aware if we already have[br]a Rapporteur on that but there will be one
0:28:59.600,0:29:01.600
soon, and…[br]Christopher: On the Telecom package?
0:29:01.600,0:29:03.600
Thomas: Yeah![br]Christopher: Del Castillo.
0:29:03.600,0:29:08.179
Thomas: Del… Oh my god. laughs[br]The worst Rapporteur that we could
0:29:08.179,0:29:12.940
possibly have. It’s the same that[br]we had for the net neutrality law.
0:29:12.940,0:29:18.540
But speak with your local ministry and[br]your Members of the European Parliament.
0:29:18.540,0:29:25.330
That’s the right answer for that. And[br]I hope that also a few countries and
0:29:25.330,0:29:30.840
as well as the regulators will see this[br]power grab as what it is. Because the
0:29:30.840,0:29:36.959
Commission is not really in the position[br]to insert itself on all levels of government.
0:29:36.959,0:29:40.129
That’s just the wrong approach.
0:29:40.129,0:29:44.459
Herald: Okay, there’s time for one last[br]question. Please, a short one! No.4.
0:29:44.459,0:29:47.070
Question: Thank you very much for the[br]talk. I was wondering, do you think
0:29:47.070,0:29:53.080
it’s possible to actually convince telecom[br]companies to be on our side, so to say,
0:29:53.080,0:29:58.629
and to get rid of all of those Zero-Rating[br]things, and convince them that
0:29:58.629,0:30:03.120
net neutrality can be a good argument for[br]customers. Or do you think the only way
0:30:03.120,0:30:06.329
is through litigations[br]and going to courts?
0:30:06.329,0:30:11.009
Christopher: I think, both.[br]The problem with telecom operators is
0:30:11.009,0:30:16.750
that you go against their business model.[br]Zero-Rating can increase their sales,
0:30:16.750,0:30:20.980
they’re increasing their quinta (?) percentage etc.[br]and net neutrality can not, or at least
0:30:20.980,0:30:26.419
not in the way they see it. There is[br]two things: on one hand you have
0:30:26.419,0:30:31.679
customer protection, on the other hand you[br]have private profits. So I think we’ll be
0:30:31.679,0:30:37.859
very welcoming any type of arguments, of[br]advocacy that could link both, and saying
0:30:37.859,0:30:41.639
that we’re making a better world, but[br]also we’re contributing to capitalism.
0:30:41.639,0:30:45.870
So, that’s a tricky one. But,[br]you know, we can discuss it.
0:30:45.870,0:30:48.029
Thomas: But it’s doable. I mean there[br]are a few ISPs that are fierce (?)
0:30:48.029,0:30:51.929
pro-net neutrality advocates. Because[br]they’ve realized that net neutrality
0:30:51.929,0:30:56.309
is good for their business model. Because[br]this open platform creates the demand
0:30:56.309,0:31:01.049
for the only product they really have,[br]which is internet access.
0:31:01.049,0:31:05.309
About… it is really a question of their[br]understanding of their own business model.
0:31:05.309,0:31:11.080
And for the most part, they would[br]either cannibalize the revenues
0:31:11.080,0:31:17.559
of other companies that run on their[br]network, instead of just being mere pipe.
0:31:17.559,0:31:20.339
But please try to convince them.[br]We do as well.
0:31:20.339,0:31:22.759
Question: I will.[br]Christopher: If you want to discuss more,
0:31:22.759,0:31:26.771
we’ll be around the tea house of[br]LaQuadrature upstairs, so
0:31:26.771,0:31:28.519
you’re welcome there.
0:31:28.519,0:31:30.880
Herald: Thank you very much,[br]Christopher and Thomas.
0:31:30.880,0:31:36.290
applause
0:31:36.290,0:31:39.479
postroll music
0:31:39.479,0:31:59.896
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