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Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:09.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}32C3 preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:09.52,0:00:13.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Our next talk is\Ncalled “Safe Harbor”.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:13.21,0:00:18.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Background is: back in October, in\Nthe light of the Snowden revelations
Dialogue: 0,0:00:18.02,0:00:22.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Court of Justice of the European\NUnion – that’s the “EuGH” in German
Dialogue: 0,0:00:22.83,0:00:29.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,declared the Safe Harbor agreement\Nbetween the EU and the US invalid.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:29.16,0:00:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This talk is about how we got there\Nas well as further implications
Dialogue: 0,0:00:32.50,0:00:37.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of that decision. Please believe me when\NI say our speaker is ideally suited
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.47,0:00:42.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to talk about that topic. Please give it\Nup for the man actually suing Facebook
Dialogue: 0,0:00:42.73,0:00:45.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over Data Protection concerns:\NMax Schrems!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.99,0:00:50.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause and cheers{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:50.94,0:00:53.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max Schrems: Hallo! Hey!\N{\i1}applause and cheers{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.29,0:01:01.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:01:01.77,0:01:05.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s cheerful like some Facebook Annual\Nconference where the newest things
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.42,0:01:09.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are kind of presented. I’m doing a little\Nintro basically where I got there.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:09.92,0:01:13.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This was my nice little university in\NCalifornia. And I was studying there
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.33,0:01:15.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for half a year and there were a\Ncouple of people from Facebook
Dialogue: 0,0:01:15.26,0:01:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and other big companies and\Nthey were talking about
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.15,0:01:21.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Data Protection law. And\Nthe basic thing they said – it was
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.29,0:01:25.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not an original quote but basically what\Nthey said is: “Fuck the Europeans,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:25.22,0:01:28.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can fuck their law as much as you\Nwant and nothing is going to happen.”
Dialogue: 0,0:01:28.05,0:01:31.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that was kind of the start of the\Nwhole story because I thought: “Okay,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:31.92,0:01:35.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let’s just make a couple of\Ncomplaints and see where it goes.”
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.64,0:01:41.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I originally got 1.300 pages Facebook data\Nback then, because you can exercise
Dialogue: 0,0:01:41.22,0:01:45.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your right to access. And Facebook\Nactually sent me a CD with a PDF file
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.42,0:01:49.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on it with all my Facebook data.\NIt was by far not everything
Dialogue: 0,0:01:49.07,0:01:51.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it was the first time that someone\Nreally got the data and I was asking
Dialogue: 0,0:01:51.88,0:01:54.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone from Facebook why they were so\Nstupid to send me all this information.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:54.89,0:01:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because a lot of it was obviously illegal.\NAnd the answer was “We had internal
Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.10,0:02:04.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communications problems.” So someone was\Njust stupid enough to burn it on a CD and
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.09,0:02:09.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,send it on. One of the CDs actually was\Nfirst going to Sydney in Australia because
Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.16,0:02:12.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they put “Australia” instead of “Austria”\Non the label which was one of the things
Dialogue: 0,0:02:12.82,0:02:15.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well.\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.05,0:02:20.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Anyway, this was basically how\Nmy interest in Facebook started;
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.01,0:02:23.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the media got crazy about it because\Nthere is like a little guy that does
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.45,0:02:27.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something against the big guy. And this\Nis basically how the whole thing got
Dialogue: 0,0:02:27.28,0:02:30.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this big. This is like a cartoon from my\NSalzburg newspaper. This should be me,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.98,0:02:34.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it’s like basically the reason why\Nthe story got that big because it’s
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.64,0:02:37.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a small guy doing something against\NFacebook, not necessarily because
Dialogue: 0,0:02:37.79,0:02:41.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I was doing was so especially smart.\NBut the story was just good for the media,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.77,0:02:45.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,’cause data protection is generally a very\Ndry topic that they can’t report about
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.88,0:02:50.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they’re they had like\Nthe guy that did something.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.02,0:02:54.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A couple of introductions. We actually\Nhad 3 procedures. So if you heard about
Dialogue: 0,0:02:54.30,0:02:58.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I was doing… There was originally\Na procedure at the Irish Data Protection
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.29,0:03:02.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Commission, on Facebook itself – so what\NFacebook itself does with the data.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.31,0:03:06.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This procedure has ended after 3 years.\NThere’s a “Class Action” in Vienna
Dialogue: 0,0:03:06.62,0:03:09.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right now that’s still ongoing. It’s in\Nfront of the Supreme Court in Austria
Dialogue: 0,0:03:09.93,0:03:14.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right now. And there is the procedure\Nthat I’m talking about today which is
Dialogue: 0,0:03:14.90,0:03:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the procedure on Safe Harbor at the\NIrish Data Protection Commission.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.92,0:03:22.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A couple of other background\Ninformations: I personally don’t think
Dialogue: 0,0:03:22.72,0:03:25.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Facebook is the issue. Facebook\Nis just a nice example for
Dialogue: 0,0:03:25.16,0:03:29.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an overall bigger issue. So I was never\Npersonally concerned with Facebook but
Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.61,0:03:32.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for me the question is how we enforce\NData Protection or kind of stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:32.97,0:03:35.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\NSo it’s not a Facebook talk; Facebook is
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.91,0:03:39.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\Nthe example. And of course the whole thing
Dialogue: 0,0:03:39.29,0:03:42.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is just one puzzle piece. A lot of people\Nare saying: “This was one win but there
Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.60,0:03:46.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are so many other issues!” – Yes, you’re\Ntotally right! This was just one issue.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.28,0:03:49.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you got to start somewhere.\NAnd the whole thing is also
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.44,0:03:53.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not an ultimate solution. So I can\Nnot present you the final solution
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.21,0:03:57.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for everything, but probably a couple\Nof possibilities to do something.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:57.53,0:04:00.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you’re interested in the documents\N– we pretty much publish everything
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.97,0:04:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the web page. It’s a very old style web\Npage. But you can download the PDF files
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.47,0:04:10.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and everything if you’re interested\Nin the facts and (?) the details.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.38,0:04:15.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Talking about facts, the whole thing\Nstarted with the Snowden case,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.78,0:04:19.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we kind of for the first time had\Ndocuments proving who is actually
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.02,0:04:23.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forwarding data to the NSA in this case.\NAnd this is the interesting part, because
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.50,0:04:26.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have a lot of rumours but if you’re in\Na Court room you actually have to prove
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.53,0:04:30.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything and you cannot just suspect\Nthat very likely they’re doing it. But you
Dialogue: 0,0:04:30.18,0:04:35.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,need actual proof. And thanks to Snowden\Nwe had at least a bunch of information
Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.20,0:04:40.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we could use. These are the slides,\Nyou all know them. The first very
Dialogue: 0,0:04:40.55,0:04:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interesting thing was the FISA act and we\Nmainly argued under 1881a as an example
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.88,0:04:51.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the overall surveillance in the US. So\Nwe took this law as an example but it was
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.51,0:04:55.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not the only thing we relied on. And I\Nthink it’s interesting for Europeans to
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.56,0:05:01.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,understand how the law actually works.\NThe law actually goes after data and not
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.03,0:05:08.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,after people. We typically have laws in\Ncriminal procedures that go after people.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.85,0:05:13.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This law goes after data. So it totally\Nfalls outside of our normal thinking of
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.29,0:05:15.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“we’re going after a suspect,\Nsomeone that
Dialogue: 0,0:05:15.23,0:05:17.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,may have committed a crime”. Basically the
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.81,0:05:21.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law says that there’s an electronic\Ncommunications service provider that holds
Dialogue: 0,0:05:21.43,0:05:25.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,foreign intelligence information. That’s\Nmuch more than just terrorist prevention,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:25.27,0:05:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that’s also things that the US is\Ngenerally interested in.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:29.92,0:05:33.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is the level that’s publicly\Nknown and everything else is basically
Dialogue: 0,0:05:33.74,0:05:38.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,classified. So under the law the FISA\NCourt can do certification for one year
Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.14,0:05:43.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that basically says “the NSA can access\Ndata”. In this certifications there are
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.67,0:05:46.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these minimization and targeting\Nprocedures that they have to describe.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:46.24,0:05:48.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they’re not public.\NWe don’t know how
Dialogue: 0,0:05:48.10,0:05:51.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they look like. And basically they’re here
Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.21,0:05:56.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to separate data from US people out of\Nthe data set. So it doesn’t really help
Dialogue: 0,0:05:56.37,0:06:00.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a European. And then there is a so called\NDirective that goes to the individual
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.69,0:06:04.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,service provider which basically says:\N“Give us the data in some technical
Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.21,0:06:08.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,format.” So very likely it’s some kind\Nof API or some kind of possibility
Dialogue: 0,0:06:08.02,0:06:12.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they can retrieve the data. That’s\Nwhat the law says. We don’t know
Dialogue: 0,0:06:12.57,0:06:17.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how it actually looks and we don't\Nhave perfect proof of it. So there are
Dialogue: 0,0:06:17.44,0:06:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of things that are disputed and\Nstill disputed by the US government.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.53,0:06:24.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the exact technical implementations,\Nthe amount of data that’s actually pulled,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:24.81,0:06:28.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the review mechanisms they have\Ninternally. That’s all stuff that was
Dialogue: 0,0:06:28.83,0:06:34.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not 100% sure, and not sure enough\Nto present it to a Court. Which was
Dialogue: 0,0:06:34.11,0:06:38.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the basic problem we had. First of\Nall after the Snowden thing broke
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.94,0:06:44.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we had different reactions. And that was\Nkind of how I started the procedure.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.46,0:06:48.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first reaction was demonstrations.\NWe were all walking in the streets.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.02,0:06:51.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is good and which is important,\Nbut we all know that this is something
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.08,0:06:55.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have to do but not something that’s\Ngonna change the world. Second thing:
Dialogue: 0,0:06:55.71,0:06:58.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we had parliaments like the European\NParliament doing resolutions saying
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.85,0:07:03.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we should strike down the Safe Harbor\Nand this is all bad and evil. We had
Dialogue: 0,0:07:03.11,0:07:07.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Commission pretty much saying the\Nsame thing. We had national politicians
Dialogue: 0,0:07:07.03,0:07:11.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying the same thing. And we all knew\Nthat basically this means that they all
Dialogue: 0,0:07:11.57,0:07:16.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,send an angry letter to the US. Then they\Ncan walk in front of the media and say:
Dialogue: 0,0:07:16.58,0:07:19.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Yes, we’ve done something, we sent\Nan angry letter to the US”, and the US
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.88,0:07:25.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is just thrown basically in some trash bin\Nof crazy Europeans wanting strange things
Dialogue: 0,0:07:25.23,0:07:31.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that was it. So I was actually called\Nby a journalist and asked if there’s
Dialogue: 0,0:07:31.96,0:07:36.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some other option. And I was then\Nstarting to think about it and there’s
Dialogue: 0,0:07:36.61,0:07:42.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the so called Safe Harbor agreement. To\Nexplain the “Safe Harbor”: In Europe
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.30,0:07:46.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have Data Protection law that is on\Nthe papers but factually not enforced.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:46.49,0:07:50.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But at least, in theory, we have it. And\Nwe have a couple of other countries
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.57,0:07:54.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that have the same level of protection\Nor similar laws. And generally
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.82,0:07:58.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Data Protection only works if you keep\Nthe data within the protected sphere so
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.46,0:08:01.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you’re not allowed to send personal\Ndata to a third country that
Dialogue: 0,0:08:01.15,0:08:04.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn’t have adequate protection. There\Nare a couple of other countries that do;
Dialogue: 0,0:08:04.82,0:08:09.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore you can transfer data e.g.\Nto Switzerland. This is what the law says.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:09.74,0:08:13.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are certain servers that\Nare outside these countries where
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.46,0:08:17.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can have contractual relationships. So\Nbasically if you have a server in India,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:17.01,0:08:20.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have a contract with your\NIndian hosting provider saying:
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.09,0:08:24.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“You apply proper Data Protection to it”.\NSo you can transfer data there, too.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:24.20,0:08:27.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All of this is approved by the European\NCommission. This is how data
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.74,0:08:33.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,flows legally outside of the EU – personal\Ndata. This all doesn’t apply
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.30,0:08:38.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to any other kind of data, only personal\Ndata. And we had a basic problem
Dialogue: 0,0:08:38.54,0:08:42.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the US because there was this\NDirective saying you can forward data
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.47,0:08:46.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to other countries but there is no Data\NProtection Law in the US. So basically
Dialogue: 0,0:08:46.85,0:08:48.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you wouldn’t be allowed to send\Ndata there unless you have
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.81,0:08:52.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some contractual relationship which\Nis always kind of complicated.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.87,0:08:58.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the solution was to have a self\Ncertification to EU principles
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.11,0:09:01.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this was put into an Executive\NDecision by the European Commission.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:01.84,0:09:06.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So basically how Safe Harbor is working\Nis that e.g. Google can walk up and say:
Dialogue: 0,0:09:06.94,0:09:12.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Hereby I pledge that I follow European\NData Protection Law. I solemnly swear!”.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:12.54,0:09:15.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then they do whatever they\Nwant to do. And basically
Dialogue: 0,0:09:15.11,0:09:17.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that’s the Safe Harbor system and the\NEuropeans can walk around saying:
Dialogue: 0,0:09:17.75,0:09:22.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Yeah, there is some seal saying\Nthat everything is fine, so don’t worry.”
Dialogue: 0,0:09:22.25,0:09:25.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Everybody knew that this is a fucked-up\Nsystem but for years and years
Dialogue: 0,0:09:25.38,0:09:29.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everyone was looking away because politics\Nis there and economics is there and
Dialogue: 0,0:09:29.40,0:09:33.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they just needed it. So basically Safe\NHarbor works that way that a US company
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.56,0:09:38.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can follow the Safe Harbor principles\Nand say: “We follow them”, then
Dialogue: 0,0:09:38.36,0:09:41.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Federal Trade Commission and private\Narbitrators are overlooking them
Dialogue: 0,0:09:41.52,0:09:46.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– in theory, in practice they never do –\Nand this whole thing was packaged
Dialogue: 0,0:09:46.70,0:09:50.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into decision by the European\NCommission. And this is the so called
Dialogue: 0,0:09:50.16,0:09:55.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Safe Harbor system. So from a European\Nlegal point of view it’s not an agreement
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.60,0:10:01.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the US, it’s a system that the US has\Nset up that we approved as adequate. So
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.01,0:10:04.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s no binding thing between the US\Nand Europe, we can kind of trash it
Dialogue: 0,0:10:04.30,0:10:10.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any time. They’ve just never done that.\NWhich brings me to the legal argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.79,0:10:14.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Basically if I’m this little Smiley down\Nthere, I’m sitting in Austria and
Dialogue: 0,0:10:14.93,0:10:20.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transfer my data to Facebook Ireland,\Nbecause worldwide – 82% of all users
Dialogue: 0,0:10:20.92,0:10:23.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a contract with Facebook Ireland.\NAnyone that lives outside the US
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.89,0:10:28.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Canada. So anyone from China,\NSouth America, Africa has a contract
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.60,0:10:33.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with Facebook in Ireland. And legally they\Nforward the data to Facebook in the US;
Dialogue: 0,0:10:33.67,0:10:37.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technically the data is directly\Nforwarded. So the data is actually flowing
Dialogue: 0,0:10:37.17,0:10:41.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right to the servers in the US. However\Nlegally it goes through Ireland. And
Dialogue: 0,0:10:41.53,0:10:46.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my contract partner is an Irish company.\NAnd under the law they can only transfer
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.03,0:10:49.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data to the US if there is adequate\Nprotection. At the same time we know
Dialogue: 0,0:10:49.84,0:10:53.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the PRISM system is hooked up in\Nthe end. So I was basically walking up
Dialogue: 0,0:10:53.55,0:10:56.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the Court and saying: “Mass\NSurveillance is very likely not
Dialogue: 0,0:10:56.72,0:11:01.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adequate protection, he?” And\Nthat was basically the argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:01.67,0:11:08.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:11:08.98,0:11:12.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The interesting thing in this situation\Nwas actually the strategic approach.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:12.25,0:11:17.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, we have the NSA and other surveillance\Norganizations that use private companies.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.90,0:11:21.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we have kind of a public-private\Nsurveillance partnership. It’s PPP in
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.88,0:11:28.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a kind of surveillance way. Facebook is\Nsubject to US law, so under US law they
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.54,0:11:32.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to forward all the data. At the same\Ntime Facebook Ireland is subject to
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.11,0:11:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European law so they’re not\Nallowed to forward all this data.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:35.04,0:11:41.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is interesting because\Nthey’re split. The EU law regulates
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.55,0:11:45.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how these third cwountry transfers work.\NAnd all of this has to be interpreted
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.57,0:11:49.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under Fundamental Rights. So this was\Nbasically the system were looking at.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:49.96,0:11:53.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the really crucial thing is that we\Nhave this public-private surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:53.46,0:11:56.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because we do have jurisdiction over\Nprivate company. We don’t have
Dialogue: 0,0:11:56.93,0:12:00.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,jurisdication over the NSA. We can\Nsend angry letters to the NSA. But
Dialogue: 0,0:12:00.68,0:12:04.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we do have jurisdiction over Facebook,\NGoogle etc. because they’re basically
Dialogue: 0,0:12:04.07,0:12:08.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,based here. Mainly for tax reasons.\NAnd this was the interesting thing that
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.77,0:12:11.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in difference to the national surveillance\Nwhere we can pretty much just send
Dialogue: 0,0:12:11.72,0:12:15.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the angry letters we can do something\Nabout the private companies. And
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.24,0:12:19.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without the private companies there is\Nalmost no mass surveillance in this scale
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.23,0:12:22.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the NSA is not in our phones,\Nit’s the Googles and Apples and whatever.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:22.81,0:12:29.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And without them you’re not really\Nable to get this mass surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:29.00,0:12:32.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is like the legal chart. Basically\Nwhat we argued is: there’s 7 and 8
Dialogue: 0,0:12:32.58,0:12:35.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Charta of Fundamental Rights.\NThat’s your right to Privacy and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:35.49,0:12:39.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your right to Data Protection. There\Nis an article in the Directive that
Dialogue: 0,0:12:39.42,0:12:44.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has to be interpreted in light of it. Then\Nthere’s the Executive Decision of the EU.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:44.15,0:12:48.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is basically the Safe Harbor\Ndecision which refers to Paragraph 4
Dialogue: 0,0:12:48.75,0:12:52.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Safe Harbor principles. And the\NSafe Harbor principles basically say
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.99,0:12:56.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the FISA Act is okay. So\Nyou have kind of this circle
Dialogue: 0,0:12:56.54,0:13:01.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of different legal layers which is getting\Nreally crazy. I’ll try to break it down
Dialogue: 0,0:13:01.58,0:13:05.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a little bit. Basically 7 and 8 of the\NCharta we basically compared
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.34,0:13:08.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to Data Retention, so the\N“Vorratsdatenspeicherung”.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:08.69,0:13:13.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We basically said PRISM is much worse. If\N“Vorratsdatenspeicherung” (Data Retention)
Dialogue: 0,0:13:13.82,0:13:18.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was invalid then PRISM has to be 10 times\Nas bad. That was basically the argument.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:18.30,0:13:22.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very simple. We just compared: the\None was content data – the other one
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.24,0:13:25.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was meta data. The one is storage\N– the other one is making available.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:25.78,0:13:29.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the one is endless – the other\None is 24 months. So basically
Dialogue: 0,0:13:29.52,0:13:33.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in all these categories PRISM was much\Nworse. And if the one has to be illegal
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.54,0:13:37.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the other one has to be as well. And\Nwhat’s interesting – and that’s something
Dialogue: 0,0:13:37.64,0:13:42.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the US side is typically not getting\N– is that Article 8 is already covering
Dialogue: 0,0:13:42.74,0:13:47.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“making available of data”. So the\Nfun thing is I only had to prove
Dialogue: 0,0:13:47.46,0:13:51.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Facebook makes data available,\Nso basically it’s possible
Dialogue: 0,0:13:51.19,0:13:55.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the NSA is pulling it. I didn’t even have\Nto prove that the NSA is factually pulling
Dialogue: 0,0:13:55.42,0:14:00.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my personal data. And this was like the\Nrelevant point because under US law
Dialogue: 0,0:14:00.19,0:14:04.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically your Fundamental Rights only\Nkick in when they factually look at your
Dialogue: 0,0:14:04.22,0:14:07.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data and actually surveil you. So I was\Nonly: “They’re making it available
Dialogue: 0,0:14:07.85,0:14:11.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– that’s good enough for me!” which\Nwas making all these factual evidence
Dialogue: 0,0:14:11.74,0:14:16.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much easier. So basically I only had\Nto say: “Look at the XKeyscore slides
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.79,0:14:22.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where they say ‘user name Facebook’\Nthey can get somehow the data out of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:22.18,0:14:26.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s at least made available; that’s\Nall I need to prove”. And this is
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.86,0:14:30.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the big difference between the US\N– it’s very simplified, but basically
Dialogue: 0,0:14:30.36,0:14:34.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between the US approach and the European\Napproach; is that in the US you have to
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.65,0:14:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prove that your data is actually pulled.\NI only had to prove that my data is made
Dialogue: 0,0:14:38.64,0:14:44.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,available. So I had to… I was able to\Nget out of all the factual questions.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:44.40,0:14:48.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a comparison – you basically…\Nin the US we have very strict laws
Dialogue: 0,0:14:48.10,0:14:53.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for certain types of surveillance while in\NEurope we have a more flexible system
Dialogue: 0,0:14:53.15,0:14:56.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that covers much more. So it’s a\Ndifferent approach that we just have
Dialogue: 0,0:14:56.73,0:15:00.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the two legal spheres. We’re both\Ntalking about your Fundamental
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.28,0:15:03.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right to Privacy, but in details it’s\Nvery different. And that’s kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.75,0:15:07.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the differences what we used. The fun\Nthing is if you’re European you don’t have
Dialogue: 0,0:15:07.91,0:15:11.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any rights in the US anyways because\Nthe Bill Of Rights only applies to people
Dialogue: 0,0:15:11.51,0:15:15.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that live in the US and US citizens so\Nyou’re out of luck anyways. So you’re
Dialogue: 0,0:15:15.83,0:15:20.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only left with the European things.\NBasically the law which is
Dialogue: 0,0:15:20.21,0:15:23.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the second level after the Fundamental\NRights is saying that there has to be
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.55,0:15:28.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an adequate level of protection as I said\Nand this third country has to ensure it
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.25,0:15:33.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by domestic law or international\Ncommitments. And I was saying: “You know
Dialogue: 0,0:15:33.28,0:15:36.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s the FISA Act, you can read\Nit, it definitely doesn’t ensure
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.18,0:15:38.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your fundamental rights and an\Nadequate protection. So we're
Dialogue: 0,0:15:38.63,0:15:45.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of out of Article 25”. And there is\Nparagraph 4 of the Safe Harbor principles
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.11,0:15:50.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which say that all these wonderful privacy\Nprinciples that US companies sign up to
Dialogue: 0,0:15:50.83,0:15:56.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do not apply whenever a national law\Nin the US is overruling it. So there are
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.58,0:16:01.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,principles that companies say: “We\Nfollow!” but if there is a city in Texas
Dialogue: 0,0:16:01.69,0:16:05.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying: “We have a local ordinance\Nsaying: ‘You have to do differently!’”
Dialogue: 0,0:16:05.65,0:16:09.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all these Safe Harbor principles\Ndon’t apply anymore. And this is
Dialogue: 0,0:16:09.03,0:16:12.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fundamental flaw of the self\Ncertification system that it only works
Dialogue: 0,0:16:12.70,0:16:17.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if there is no law around that conflicts\Nwith it. And as there are tons of laws
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.24,0:16:22.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that conflict with it you’re hardly\Nable to hold up a system like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:22.52,0:16:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So basically if you go through all these\Ndifferent legal layers you end up with
Dialogue: 0,0:16:26.22,0:16:29.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a conflict between the US FISA Act\Nand the European Fundamental Rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:29.73,0:16:33.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you’re going through different layers\Nof the system but you’re basically making
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.07,0:16:41.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a circle. This is what we did which was\Na little bit complicated but worked.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:41.01,0:16:53.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.72,0:16:57.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Basically now to the procedure,\Nso how the whole thing happened.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:57.43,0:17:01.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First I went through the Safe Harbor. Safe\NHarbor allows you to go to TRUSTe or
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.64,0:17:06.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Federal Trade Commission and there’s\Nan online form to make your complaint. And
Dialogue: 0,0:17:06.63,0:17:10.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was making a complaint and I think you\Nwere only allowed to put in 60 characters
Dialogue: 0,0:17:10.27,0:17:13.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to explain what your complaint is. Which\Nis a little bit complicated if you’re
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.65,0:17:17.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trying to explain NSA mass surveillance.\NSo I only wrote: “Stop Facebook, Inc.’s
Dialogue: 0,0:17:17.78,0:17:20.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,involvement in PRISM!”. That\Nwas everything I could actually
Dialogue: 0,0:17:20.41,0:17:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,put in the text box; that was\Nthe absolute maximum.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:24.28,0:17:27.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the answer I got back was: “TRUSTe\Ndoes not have the authority to address
Dialogue: 0,0:17:27.69,0:17:31.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the matter you raise.” Which is obvious,\Nit’s a private arbitration company
Dialogue: 0,0:17:31.28,0:17:35.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that can hardly tell Facebook to not\Nfollow the NSA’s guidelines. So
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.37,0:17:39.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this was the arbitration mechanism under\NSafe Harbor. You can also go to the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:39.31,0:17:43.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Federal Trade Commission and have your\Ncomplaint filed there. But they basically
Dialogue: 0,0:17:43.39,0:17:50.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just ignore them. This was the letter I\Ngot back, that they received it. But
Dialogue: 0,0:17:50.29,0:17:53.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was talking to the people at the FTC and\Nthey say: “Yeah, we get these complaints
Dialogue: 0,0:17:53.76,0:17:59.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they’re ending up in a huge storage\Nsystem where they stay for ever after”.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.13,0:18:02.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this was enforcement done by\NSafe Harbor. And we knew that
Dialogue: 0,0:18:02.53,0:18:05.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the private field already; but in this\Ncase it was especially interesting.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.64,0:18:08.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To be fair, both of these institutions\Nhave no power to do anything
Dialogue: 0,0:18:08.72,0:18:11.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about mass surveillance. So\Nthere was really a reason why
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.26,0:18:14.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they didn’t do anything.\NThe next step you have is
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.33,0:18:17.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the national Data Protection Commissioner.\NSo we have 28 countries
Dialogue: 0,0:18:17.33,0:18:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with 28 [Commissioners]; plus Germany has\N– I think – a Data Protection Commissioner
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.64,0:18:26.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in every province. And you end up at\Nthis. And this is my most favourite slide.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:26.94,0:18:30.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is the Irish Data\NProtection Commissioner.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:30.50,0:18:33.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.91,0:18:36.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To be super precise\N– I don’t know if you
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.45,0:18:38.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can see the laser pointer. But this is a
Dialogue: 0,0:18:38.10,0:18:41.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,super market. And this is the Irish Data\NProtection Commissioner back there.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:41.57,0:18:45.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter, applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.04,0:18:48.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To be a little more fair, actually they’re\Nup here and they’re like 20 people
Dialogue: 0,0:18:48.37,0:18:51.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we filed it originally. The fun thing\Nis back at the times they didn’t have
Dialogue: 0,0:18:51.72,0:18:54.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a single lawyer and not a single\Ntechnician. So they were 20
Dialogue: 0,0:18:54.73,0:18:58.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,public employees that were dealing\Nwith Data Protection and no one
Dialogue: 0,0:18:58.47,0:19:02.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had any clue of the technical\Nor the legal things about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:02.96,0:19:06.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The fun thing is: this is Billy Hawkes,\Nthe Data Protection Commissioner
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.14,0:19:09.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the time. He went on the\Nnational radio in the morning.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.72,0:19:12.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in Ireland radio is a really big\Nthing. So it was a morning show.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:12.96,0:19:16.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he was asked about these complaints.\NAnd he actually said on the radio:
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.54,0:19:21.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“I don’t think it will come\Nas much of a surprise
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.17,0:19:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the US services have access\Nto all the US companies”.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.88,0:19:28.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this was the craziest thing!\NI was sitting in front of the radio
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.51,0:19:34.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and was like: “Strike! He just\Nacknowledged that all this is true!”.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.56,0:19:38.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the second thing, he said: “This US\Nsurveillance operation is not an issue
Dialogue: 0,0:19:38.04,0:19:42.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Data Protection”. Interesting.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:42.50,0:19:47.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s actually online and you can listen\Nto it. But the fun thing was really that
Dialogue: 0,0:19:47.57,0:19:52.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the factual level is so hard to prove that\NI was afraid that they would dispute:
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.18,0:19:55.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Hah, who knows if all this is true?\NWe don’t have any evidence!
Dialogue: 0,0:19:55.38,0:19:58.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The companies say we are\Nnot engaging in all of this.”
Dialogue: 0,0:19:58.71,0:20:02.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So having the Data Protection Commissioner\Nsaying: “Sure they surveil you!
Dialogue: 0,0:20:02.77,0:20:06.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are you surprised?” was great\Nbecause we were kind of out of
Dialogue: 0,0:20:06.33,0:20:10.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the whole factual debate.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.18,0:20:13.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I actually got a letter back from them\Nsaying that they’re not investigating
Dialogue: 0,0:20:13.07,0:20:17.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any of it. And I was asking them why. And\Nthey were naming 2 sections of the law,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:17.85,0:20:21.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a combination thereof. So there was one\Nthing where it says they shall investigate
Dialogue: 0,0:20:21.60,0:20:25.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– which means they have to – or\Nthey may investigate. And they say
Dialogue: 0,0:20:25.13,0:20:28.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they only “may” investigate complaints\Nand they just don’t feel like
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.06,0:20:32.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,investigating PRISM and Facebook\Nand all of this. Secondly they say
Dialogue: 0,0:20:32.71,0:20:36.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a complaint could be “frivolous\Nand vexatious” – I love the word!
Dialogue: 0,0:20:36.92,0:20:41.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And therefor they’re not investigating\Nit. “A combination thereof or indeed
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.13,0:20:47.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any other relevant matter.” So we\Ntransferred this letter into a picture
Dialogue: 0,0:20:47.98,0:20:51.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is basically what they said: “So\Nwhy did you not investigate PRISM?”
Dialogue: 0,0:20:51.63,0:20:54.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– “‘Shall’ means ‘may’, frivolous\Nor
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.14,0:20:55.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,vexatious, a combination of A and B
Dialogue: 0,0:20:55.70,0:20:58.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or any other reason.”\NSo this was the answer
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.82,0:21:01.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the Irish Data Protection Commissioner\Nwhy they wouldn’t want to investigate
Dialogue: 0,0:21:01.45,0:21:05.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the complaint. Just to give\Nyou background information:
Dialogue: 0,0:21:05.71,0:21:08.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these are the complaints that the Irish\NData Protection Commissioner is receiving
Dialogue: 0,0:21:08.35,0:21:10.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– the blue line – and the red line is\Nall
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.51,0:21:13.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the complaints they’re not deciding.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:13.38,0:21:17.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is 96..98% of the complaints
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.42,0:21:20.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they receive on an average year.\NWhich is interesting because you have
Dialogue: 0,0:21:20.68,0:21:24.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a right to get a decision but they don’t.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:24.13,0:21:27.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To give you the bigger picture: we\Nalso made complaints on Apple
Dialogue: 0,0:21:27.18,0:21:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and all the other PRISM companies.\NAnd Ireland basically said
Dialogue: 0,0:21:30.51,0:21:35.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I just told you. Luxembourg, where\NSkype and Microsoft are situated, said
Dialogue: 0,0:21:35.31,0:21:38.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they do not have enough evidence for\Nthe participation of Microsoft and Skype
Dialogue: 0,0:21:38.76,0:21:43.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[in PRISM]. And the funniest thing\Nabout the answer was that they said
Dialogue: 0,0:21:43.07,0:21:46.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they’re restricted by their\Ninvestigations to the territory
Dialogue: 0,0:21:46.03,0:21:50.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Luxembourg. And since all of this is\Nhappening in the US they have no way
Dialogue: 0,0:21:50.22,0:21:54.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of ever finding out what was going on.\NSo I was telling them: “You know,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:54.05,0:21:57.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most of this is online and if you’re not\Nable to download it I can print it out
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.89,0:22:02.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for you and ship it to Luxembourg.” But\Nthe problem is why we didn’t go down
Dialogue: 0,0:22:02.89,0:22:06.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Luxembourg is because they went down\Nthis factual kind of argument. They said:
Dialogue: 0,0:22:06.46,0:22:10.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“It’s all illegal but factually we\Ndon’t believe it’s true”. And
Dialogue: 0,0:22:10.01,0:22:15.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then there was Germany that are\Nstill investigating until today.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:15.28,0:22:18.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This was Yahoo. Actually that was\NYahoo in Munich but they now
Dialogue: 0,0:22:18.30,0:22:21.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,moved to Ireland as well. So I don’t\Nknow what happened to this complaint.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:21.14,0:22:23.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We never heard back. But whenever we sent\Nan email they were like: “Yeah, we’re
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.80,0:22:29.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,still investigating.” So what happened now\Nis that I went to the Irish High Court.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:29.82,0:22:34.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To jeopardize the non-decision of the\NIrish Data Protection Commissioner.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.15,0:22:37.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is the case that then went down as\N“Schrems vs. the Data Protection
Dialogue: 0,0:22:37.35,0:22:40.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Commissioner” which is so strange because\NI never wanted to have my name
Dialogue: 0,0:22:40.79,0:22:43.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on any of this and now the decision is\Nactually called after my second name
Dialogue: 0,0:22:43.69,0:22:46.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is always freaking me out in a way.\NBecause you’re fighting for Privacy and
Dialogue: 0,0:22:46.99,0:22:51.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suddenly your name is all over the place.\N{\i1}applause and laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:22:51.48,0:22:56.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:22:56.01,0:23:00.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is the Irish High Court. So you…
Dialogue: 0,0:23:00.16,0:23:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s very complicated to\Nget a procedure like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.13,0:23:07.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The biggest issue is that you need money.\NIf you’re in front of an Irish Court
Dialogue: 0,0:23:07.61,0:23:10.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you lose a case you\Nend up with a legal bill of
Dialogue: 0,0:23:10.10,0:23:13.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a couple of hundred thousand\NEuros. Which is the reason why
Dialogue: 0,0:23:13.28,0:23:17.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,never anybody ever challenged the\NIrish Data Protection Commissioner.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:17.60,0:23:21.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because you just gonna\Nlose your house over it!
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.51,0:23:25.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what I did is: we did a little\Nbit of crowd-funding! And
Dialogue: 0,0:23:25.90,0:23:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we actually got about 70.000 Euros out\Nof it. This was a crowd-funding platform
Dialogue: 0,0:23:29.42,0:23:32.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that basically worked in a way\Nthat people could donate
Dialogue: 0,0:23:32.18,0:23:35.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if we don’t need the money we either\Ndonate it to another Privacy cause
Dialogue: 0,0:23:35.95,0:23:39.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or we actually give people the money\Nback. Which we got to have to do
Dialogue: 0,0:23:39.71,0:23:43.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we won the case. And all\Nour costs are paid by the other side.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:43.49,0:23:49.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:23:49.96,0:23:55.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the fun thing is you then have to\Nwalk into this wonderful old Court here
Dialogue: 0,0:23:55.66,0:23:59.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on Mondays at 11:30. And\Nthere’s a room where you can
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.71,0:24:03.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make your application. And about 100 other\Npeople making their application as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:03.99,0:24:06.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there is no number. So there\Nare 100 lawyers sitting in a room,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:06.85,0:24:11.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,waiting for the judge to call out your\Ncase. So we were sitting there until 4 PM
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.24,0:24:15.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or something until suddenly our case was\Ncalled up. And we actually got kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:24:15.43,0:24:19.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the possibility to bring our case and then\Nit’s postponed to another date and
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.26,0:24:24.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,blablablablabla. In the end you\Nend up with something like this.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:24.40,0:24:28.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is all the paperwork\Nbecause in Ireland the Courts
Dialogue: 0,0:24:28.38,0:24:33.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are not computerized so far. So you\Nhave to bring all the paperwork,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:33.02,0:24:38.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anything you rely on, in 3 copies.\NAnd it’s all paper, noted of the pages,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:38.20,0:24:43.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so all these copies have pages 1 to 1000.\NSomeone’s writing all of them on the page.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:43.26,0:24:46.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then they copy it 3 times and it’s\Nthen in this wonderful little thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:46.01,0:24:49.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I thought it’s great. And\Nwhat happened is that
Dialogue: 0,0:24:49.81,0:24:53.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we walked into the judge’s room and you\Nget a judge assigned on the same day.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:53.63,0:24:57.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you end up in front of a judge\Nthat has never heard about Privacy,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:57.69,0:25:00.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,never heard about Facebook and\Nnever heard about Snowden and PRISM
Dialogue: 0,0:25:00.57,0:25:03.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and any of this. So you walk into the\Nroom as like “We would like to debate
Dialogue: 0,0:25:03.71,0:25:08.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Safe Harbor with you” and he was like\N“What the fuck is the Safe Harbor?”.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:08.22,0:25:12.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what happened is that he told us to\Nkind of explain what it is for 15 minutes.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.25,0:25:16.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then he postponed the\Nwhole thing for 2 hours I think
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.28,0:25:19.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we walked over to a pub and had a\Nbeer. So that the judge could remotely
Dialogue: 0,0:25:19.96,0:25:24.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,read what he’s about to look into.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:24.54,0:25:27.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Ireland is very interesting because\Nyou need a Solicitor and a Counsel
Dialogue: 0,0:25:27.15,0:25:30.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then the Counsel is actually talking\Nto the Judge. So I actually had 2 filters.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:30.90,0:25:34.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If I’m the client down here I had to\Ntalk to my Solicitor. The Solicitor
Dialogue: 0,0:25:34.01,0:25:38.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was telling the Counsel what to say to the\NJudge. So half of it was lost on the way.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:38.52,0:25:41.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when I was asking if I could\Njust address the Judge personally
Dialogue: 0,0:25:41.73,0:25:44.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were like “No, no way that you could\Npossibly address the Judge personally
Dialogue: 0,0:25:44.77,0:25:46.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though you’re the claimant”.\NWhich is
Dialogue: 0,0:25:46.24,0:25:48.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,funny ’cause they talk about this “person”
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.11,0:25:52.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the room. It’s like “What’s the problem\Nof this Mr. Schrems?”. And you’re like
Dialogue: 0,0:25:52.06,0:25:57.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sitting right here, it’s like\N“This would be me!”.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:57.04,0:26:01.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what happened in Ireland is that we\Nhad about 10 reasons why under Irish law
Dialogue: 0,0:26:01.06,0:26:05.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Irish Data Protection Commissioner\Nwould have to do its job but the Court
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.96,0:26:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually wiped all of this from the table\Nand said actually the Safe Harbor
Dialogue: 0,0:26:09.88,0:26:12.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the issue, which legally they’re\Nnot allowed to do what politically
Dialogue: 0,0:26:12.58,0:26:16.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was very wise and forwarded this\Nwonderful easy-to-understand question
Dialogue: 0,0:26:16.50,0:26:19.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the European Court of Justice.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:19.71,0:26:23.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The reason why they put this kind\Nof very random question is that
Dialogue: 0,0:26:23.48,0:26:27.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you jeopardize a law in Ireland you\Nhave to get some Advocate General engaged.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:27.71,0:26:30.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they didn’t want to do that\Nso they kind of “asked a question
Dialogue: 0,0:26:30.09,0:26:33.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around the actual question”\Nto not really get them engaged.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:33.89,0:26:35.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which was very complicated\Nbecause we didn’t know how
Dialogue: 0,0:26:35.72,0:26:38.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the European Court of Justice ’d kind of\Nreact to this random question because
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.61,0:26:41.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was so broad that they could just walk\Nany other direction and not address
Dialogue: 0,0:26:41.53,0:26:47.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the real issue. What was wonderful is\Nthat in the judgment by the Irish Court
Dialogue: 0,0:26:47.33,0:26:50.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they have actually said that\Nall of this is factually true.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:50.64,0:26:54.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All the mass surveillance is factually\Ntrue. And the fun thing to understand
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.17,0:26:58.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that the factual assessment is done by\Nthe national Courts. So the European
Dialogue: 0,0:26:58.72,0:27:02.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice is not engaging in\Nfactual matters anymore. They only
Dialogue: 0,0:27:02.00,0:27:06.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ask legal questions: “Is this legal or\Nnot”. So we had a split of responsibility.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:06.80,0:27:10.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Irish Court only said that all of this\Nis true. And Luxembourg only said
Dialogue: 0,0:27:10.68,0:27:15.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that all of this would be legal if all of\Nthis would be true. Which was kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:27:15.05,0:27:19.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an interesting situation. But to be\Nfair no one before the European
Dialogue: 0,0:27:19.53,0:27:23.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Court of Justice has ever questioned\Nthat this is true. So even the UK
Dialogue: 0,0:27:23.01,0:27:26.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was in front of the Court and that\Nshould possibly know if all of this
Dialogue: 0,0:27:26.27,0:27:30.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is true or not, they have never\Nquestioned the facts. {\i1}laughs{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.27,0:27:34.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is a pretty good factual basis.\NWhat was interesting as well is
Dialogue: 0,0:27:34.93,0:27:39.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I said I’m not gonna go in front\Nof the European Court of Justice.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.15,0:27:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because the cost is so high that even the\N60 or 70.000 Euros I got in donations
Dialogue: 0,0:27:44.24,0:27:47.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wouldn’t cover it. And I knew the judge\Nwants to get this hot potato off his table
Dialogue: 0,0:27:47.97,0:27:52.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and down to Luxembourg. So I was asking\Nfor a so called “protective cost order”
Dialogue: 0,0:27:52.28,0:27:55.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which kind of tells you beforehand that\Nthere is a maximum amount you have to pay
Dialogue: 0,0:27:55.47,0:27:57.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you lose a case. And it\Nwas actually the first one
Dialogue: 0,0:27:57.96,0:28:01.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to ever get protective cost\Norder in Ireland granted.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.96,0:28:06.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which was really cool and the Irish\Nwere like outraged about it, too.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:06.02,0:28:09.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:28:09.76,0:28:12.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we basically walked into the\NEuropean Court of Justice which is
Dialogue: 0,0:28:12.96,0:28:17.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a really hefty procedure.\NIn this room were…
Dialogue: 0,0:28:17.15,0:28:20.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,13 judges are in front of you. The\NEuropean Court of Justice has assigned it
Dialogue: 0,0:28:20.52,0:28:24.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the Great Chamber. So there is a\NSmall, a Medium and a Great Chamber.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:24.15,0:28:28.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is the highest thing you can\Npossibly end up in Europe. And
Dialogue: 0,0:28:28.48,0:28:31.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s chaired by the President of the\NEuropean Court of Justice. And this is
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.49,0:28:36.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of where the really really basic,\Nreally important questions are dealt with.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:36.35,0:28:38.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I was like: “Cool, I’m getting to the\NEuropean Court of Justice!”. And it’s
Dialogue: 0,0:28:38.89,0:28:41.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,funny because all the lawyers that were in\Nthe room, everyone was like “I can pledge
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.93,0:28:44.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in front of the European Court of\NJustice!”. They all took pictures like
Dialogue: 0,0:28:44.58,0:28:47.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were in Disneyland or something.\N{\i1}audience laughing{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:28:47.04,0:28:52.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was – lawyers can be\Nvery… kind of… interesting. And
Dialogue: 0,0:28:52.97,0:28:57.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we ended up in front of these 3 major\Npeople. It was the President,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:57.25,0:29:00.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thomas von Danwitz – who is the German\Njudge and he also wrote the lead decision.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:00.86,0:29:03.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He’s the Judge Rapporteur, so within\Nthe 13 judges there’s one that is
Dialogue: 0,0:29:03.71,0:29:07.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the reporting judge and actually drafts\Nthe whole case. And he was also
Dialogue: 0,0:29:07.13,0:29:12.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing the Data Retention. And then there\Nwas Yves Bot as the Advocate General.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:12.76,0:29:15.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The hearing was interesting\Nbecause we got questions
Dialogue: 0,0:29:15.22,0:29:18.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the European Court of Justice before\Nthe hearing. And in these questions
Dialogue: 0,0:29:18.48,0:29:21.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were actually digging down into\Nthe core issues of mass surveillance
Dialogue: 0,0:29:21.60,0:29:25.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the US. When I got the questions\NI was like “We won the case!” because
Dialogue: 0,0:29:25.93,0:29:30.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s no way they can decide differently\Nas soon as they address the question.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:30.81,0:29:34.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There were participants from all over\NEurope. These are the countries,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:34.79,0:29:37.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then there was the European Parliament,\Nthe European Data Protection Supervisor
Dialogue: 0,0:29:37.66,0:29:40.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the European Commission.\NThere was me – MS down there,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:40.77,0:29:44.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Data Protection Commissioner\Nand Digital Rights Ireland. And
Dialogue: 0,0:29:44.94,0:29:49.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what was interesting was the countries\Nthat were not there. Like Germany, e.g.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:49.31,0:29:53.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was not there in this major procedure.\NAnd as far as I’ve heard there were
Dialogue: 0,0:29:53.00,0:30:00.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reasons of not getting too engaged in\Nthe Transatlantic Partnership problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:00.30,0:30:04.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this was kind of interesting because\Nthe UK walked up but Germany was like:
Dialogue: 0,0:30:04.80,0:30:08.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“No, we rather don’t want\Nto say anything about this.”
Dialogue: 0,0:30:08.13,0:30:12.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What was interesting as well is that there\Nwere interventions by the US Government.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:12.37,0:30:16.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I heard… we were… on a Tuesday we\Nwere actually in the Court. And on Mondays
Dialogue: 0,0:30:16.47,0:30:20.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I got text messages from people of\Nthese different countries telling me that
Dialogue: 0,0:30:20.43,0:30:25.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the US just called them up. And\NI was like: “This is interesting”
Dialogue: 0,0:30:25.04,0:30:28.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I know a lot of these people from\Nconferences and stuff. So they were like
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.18,0:30:31.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,telling me: “The US just called me\Nup and said they wanna talk to my
Dialogue: 0,0:30:31.21,0:30:34.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lead lead lead supervisor and tell me\Nwhat to say tomorrow in the Court”.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:34.52,0:30:38.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was like: “This is very interesting!”.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:38.05,0:30:44.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was actually in the Court room and there\Nwas the justice person from the US embassy
Dialogue: 0,0:30:44.07,0:30:47.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the European Union. And he was actually\Nwatching the procedure and watching
Dialogue: 0,0:30:47.65,0:30:50.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what everybody was arguing.\NWhere I had a feeling this is
Dialogue: 0,0:30:50.43,0:30:54.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a watchdog situation. And someone\Npointed out that this is the guy,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:54.13,0:30:57.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so I knew who it is. And he was walking up\Nto me and asked: “Are you the plaintiff?”
Dialogue: 0,0:30:57.42,0:31:02.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I said: “Yeah, hey!” and he was\Ntrying to talk to me and I said:
Dialogue: 0,0:31:02.96,0:31:06.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Did you manage calling everybody by now\Nor do you still need a couple of numbers?”
Dialogue: 0,0:31:06.42,0:31:06.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}audience laughing{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:31:06.87,0:31:11.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he was like: “(?) arrogant!”. He was\Nlike: “He didn’t just ask this question?”.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:11.65,0:31:15.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He said: “No, we kind of we’re in contact\Nwith all of our colleagues and of course
Dialogue: 0,0:31:15.59,0:31:19.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have to kind of push for the interest\Nof the US” and blablabla. I thought:
Dialogue: 0,0:31:19.28,0:31:22.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“This is very interesting!”. But\Nanyway, it didn’t help them.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:22.84,0:31:27.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No one of them was really kind\Nof arguing for the US, actually.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:27.72,0:31:30.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The findings of the European Court of\NJustice, so what was in the judgment
Dialogue: 0,0:31:30.44,0:31:36.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the end. First of all, Safe Harbor\Nis invalid. Which was the big news.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:36.05,0:31:39.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this was over night. We were expecting\Nthat they would have a grace period
Dialogue: 0,0:31:39.34,0:31:43.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so it’s invalid within 3 months or\Nsomething like this. But in the minute
Dialogue: 0,0:31:43.70,0:31:48.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were saying it there all your data\Ntransfers to the US were suddenly illegal.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.45,0:31:58.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\NWhich was kind of big.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:58.71,0:32:02.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The second biggie was that they actually\Nsaid that the essence of your rights
Dialogue: 0,0:32:02.07,0:32:04.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is violated. Now this, for an average\Nperson, doesn’t mean too much.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:04.85,0:32:10.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But for a lawyer it says: “Oh my\Ngod, the essence is touched!!”.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:10.27,0:32:14.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To explain to you what the essence is and\Nwhy everybody is so excited about it is:
Dialogue: 0,0:32:14.17,0:32:17.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically if you have a violation of\Nyour rights you have no interference.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:17.82,0:32:20.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if a policeman was walking\Ndown the street and watching you
Dialogue: 0,0:32:20.42,0:32:24.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s no interference with any of your\Nrights. If they probably tapped your phone
Dialogue: 0,0:32:24.03,0:32:27.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is some kind of proportionality\Nissue which is what we typically debate
Dialogue: 0,0:32:27.45,0:32:30.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before a Court. There is a system how\Nyou argue if something is proportionate
Dialogue: 0,0:32:30.95,0:32:34.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or not. So e.g. Data Retention\Nwas not proportionate.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:34.75,0:32:37.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Data Retention would be somewhere\Nhere probably. {\i1}points to slide{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:32:37.95,0:32:41.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So not legal anymore but\Nstill in a proportionality test.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:41.80,0:32:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then there is “the essence”\Nwhich means whatever the fuck
Dialogue: 0,0:32:44.32,0:32:47.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you’re trying to do here is totally\Nillegal because what you’re doing
Dialogue: 0,0:32:47.19,0:32:49.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is so much out of the scale\Nof proportionality that
Dialogue: 0,0:32:49.69,0:32:53.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it will never be legal. And on Data\NRetention it actually said that
Dialogue: 0,0:32:53.53,0:32:56.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the first time…\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:32:56.59,0:33:01.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.89,0:33:04.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,…and this was actually the\Nfirst time as far as I saw
Dialogue: 0,0:33:04.16,0:33:07.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the European Court of Justice has\Never said that under the convention.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:07.29,0:33:11.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the convention is only\Nin place since 2008, I think.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.41,0:33:13.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it’s the first time they actually\Nfound that in a case which was
Dialogue: 0,0:33:13.64,0:33:18.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,huge for law in general. There\Nwas a couple of findings
Dialogue: 0,0:33:18.12,0:33:21.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on Data Protection powers that\Nare not too interesting for you.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:21.66,0:33:26.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What may be interesting is that
Dialogue: 0,0:33:26.45,0:33:29.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– there is a story to this picture\Nthat’s the reason I put it in –
Dialogue: 0,0:33:29.76,0:33:32.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically they said that a\Nthird country doesn’t have
Dialogue: 0,0:33:32.31,0:33:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to provide adequate protection, as\NI said before. So the story was
Dialogue: 0,0:33:35.60,0:33:39.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that third countries originally had\Nto provide equivalent protection.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:39.21,0:33:42.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there was lobbying going on,\Nso the word “equivalent” was
Dialogue: 0,0:33:42.27,0:33:47.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,changed to “adequate”. And\N“adequate” means basically nothing.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:47.09,0:33:51.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because anything and nothing can be\Nadequate. “Adequate” has no legal meaning.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:51.12,0:33:55.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean if you ask what an adequate\Ndressing is – you don’t really know.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:55.91,0:33:59.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they changed that actually back to the\Nlaw… to the wording that was lobbied
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.50,0:34:02.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out of the law and said it has to be\N“essentially equivalent” and that’s how
Dialogue: 0,0:34:02.88,0:34:05.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we now understand “adequate”. Which is\Ncool because any third country now
Dialogue: 0,0:34:05.98,0:34:10.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has to provide more or less the same\Nlevel of protection than Europe has.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:10.11,0:34:15.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There has to be effective detention\Nand supervision mechanisms. And
Dialogue: 0,0:34:15.47,0:34:18.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there has to be legal redress. Just\Na really short thing on the picture:
Dialogue: 0,0:34:18.20,0:34:20.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was actually just pointing at two\Npeople and they were taking a picture
Dialogue: 0,0:34:20.90,0:34:24.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from down there to make it a Victory\Nsign. And that’s how the media
Dialogue: 0,0:34:24.53,0:34:27.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is then doing: “Whoo”.\N{\i1}making short Victory gesture{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:34:27.93,0:34:31.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have to speed up a little bit.\NNot too much but a little bit.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:31.90,0:34:36.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The future, and I think that’s probably\Nrelevant for you guys as well…
Dialogue: 0,0:34:36.07,0:34:40.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First of all, what this whole judgment\Nmeans. First of all the US
Dialogue: 0,0:34:40.82,0:34:44.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically lost its privileged\Nstatus as being a country
Dialogue: 0,0:34:44.07,0:34:47.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that provides adequate [data] protection.\NWhich is kind of the elephant in the room
Dialogue: 0,0:34:47.48,0:34:50.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that everyone knew anyway, that they’re\Nnot providing it. And now, officially,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:50.86,0:34:55.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’re not providing it anymore. And the\NUS is now like any third country.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:55.30,0:35:00.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So like China or Russia or India or\Nany country we usually transfer data to.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:00.32,0:35:03.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it’s not like you cannot transfer\Ndata to the US anymore.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:03.75,0:35:06.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they lost their special status.\NBasically what the judgment said:
Dialogue: 0,0:35:06.84,0:35:09.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“You can’t have mass surveillance\Nand be at the same time
Dialogue: 0,0:35:09.08,0:35:13.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an adequately [data] protecting country”.\NWhich is kind of logical anyway.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:13.49,0:35:16.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The consequence is that you have to\Nuse the derogations that are in the law
Dialogue: 0,0:35:16.54,0:35:20.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we have for other countries as well.\NSo a lot of people said: “You know,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.10,0:35:23.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the only result will be that there will be\Na consent box saying ‘I consent that my
Dialogue: 0,0:35:23.61,0:35:27.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[personal] data is going to the US.’”\NNow the problem is: consent has to be
Dialogue: 0,0:35:27.48,0:35:32.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,freely given, informed, unambiguous\Nand specific; under European law.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:32.16,0:35:34.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is something all the Googles\Nand Facebooks in the world have
Dialogue: 0,0:35:34.35,0:35:36.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,never understood. That’s the reason\Nwhy all these Privacy Policies are
Dialogue: 0,0:35:36.87,0:35:41.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,typically invalid. But anyway. So if\Nyou have any of these wordings that
Dialogue: 0,0:35:41.27,0:35:45.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’re currently using, like “Your data\Nis subject to all applicable laws” it’s
Dialogue: 0,0:35:45.19,0:35:48.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very likely not “informed” and\N“unambiguous”. Because you don’t have
Dialogue: 0,0:35:48.30,0:35:52.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any fucking idea that your data is\Nending up at the NSA if you read this.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:52.12,0:35:55.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what they would have to do is to have\Nsome Policy saying: “I agree that all of
Dialogue: 0,0:35:55.51,0:35:59.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my personal data is made available to the\NNSA, FBI and whatsoever – YES/NO”.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:59.53,0:36:02.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\NBecause it has to be “freely given”, so
Dialogue: 0,0:36:02.08,0:36:04.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\NI have to have the option to say “No”.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:04.41,0:36:09.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now this would theoretically be possible\Nbut under US law they’re placed under
Dialogue: 0,0:36:09.05,0:36:10.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a “gag order”, so they’re\Nnot allowed to
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.51,0:36:13.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say this. So they’re in a legal kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:36:13.61,0:36:17.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Limbo because on the one hand they have to\Nsay: “It’s this way” but on the other hand
Dialogue: 0,0:36:17.03,0:36:22.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they have to say “No it’s not”. So consent\Nis not going to give you any solution.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:22.21,0:36:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then there are Standard Contractual\NClauses. That’s the one from Apple that
Dialogue: 0,0:36:25.76,0:36:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’re using right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:28.13,0:36:31.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Standard Contractual Clauses allow\Nyou to have a contract with a provider
Dialogue: 0,0:36:31.94,0:36:36.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a third country. And that\Npledges to you in a contract
Dialogue: 0,0:36:36.22,0:36:40.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that all your data is safe. The problem\Nis that they have exception clauses.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:40.95,0:36:45.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That basically say: “If there’s mass\Nsurveillance your whole contract is void”
Dialogue: 0,0:36:45.14,0:36:48.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you cannot have a contract\Nsaying: “Hereby I pledge full Privacy”
Dialogue: 0,0:36:48.86,0:36:52.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and at the same time be subject to these\Nlaws. And this is the interesting thing:
Dialogue: 0,0:36:52.87,0:36:56.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all these companies are saying: “Now we’re\Ndoing Standard Contractual Clauses”,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:56.13,0:36:58.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but none of them are going to hold\Nup in Courts and everybody knows,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:58.40,0:37:00.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but of course to their shareholders\Nthey have to tell: “Oh we have
Dialogue: 0,0:37:00.45,0:37:04.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a wonderful solution for this.”
Dialogue: 0,0:37:04.16,0:37:07.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The big question here is if we have\Na factual or legal assessment.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:07.86,0:37:12.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So do we have to look at factually what\Ndata is actually processed by the NSA
Dialogue: 0,0:37:12.69,0:37:16.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what are they actually doing. Or do we\Njust have to look at the laws in a country
Dialogue: 0,0:37:16.47,0:37:21.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the possibility of mass access. So the\Nfactual assessment works fine for Apple,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:21.55,0:37:26.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Google etc. who are all in these Snowden\Nslides. If you look at the abstract and
Dialogue: 0,0:37:26.12,0:37:30.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legal assessment which is legally the\Nthing that probably we have to do
Dialogue: 0,0:37:30.66,0:37:34.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you actually end up with questions like\NAmazon. Amazon was not a huge
Dialogue: 0,0:37:34.95,0:37:38.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cloud provider when the Snowden slides\Nwere actually drafted and written.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:38.28,0:37:42.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They’re huge now. And very likely\Nthey’re subject to all of these laws.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:42.41,0:37:45.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So how do we deal with a company like\Nthis? Can we still forward [personal] data
Dialogue: 0,0:37:45.13,0:37:48.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to an Amazon cloud? If we know\Nthey’re subject to these US laws.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:48.50,0:37:51.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is the question of which\Ncompanies are actually falling
Dialogue: 0,0:37:51.48,0:37:56.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under this whole judgment.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:56.31,0:37:59.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Basically you still have a couple of\Nother exemptions. So this basic thing
Dialogue: 0,0:37:59.51,0:38:03.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a couple of people say that you’re\Nnot allowed to book a hotel [room]
Dialogue: 0,0:38:03.13,0:38:06.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the US anymore is not true. There\Nare a lot of exceptions in the law e.g.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:06.58,0:38:10.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the performance of a contract. So if\NI book a hotel [room] in New York online
Dialogue: 0,0:38:10.58,0:38:14.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my [personal] data has to go to New York\Nto actually book my hotel [room]. So
Dialogue: 0,0:38:14.54,0:38:17.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in all these cases you can still transfer\N[personal] data. The ruling is mainly
Dialogue: 0,0:38:17.95,0:38:20.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on outsourcing. So if you could\Ntheoretically have your [personal] data
Dialogue: 0,0:38:20.55,0:38:24.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Europe you’re just not choosing because\Nit’s cheaper to host it in the US or
Dialogue: 0,0:38:24.21,0:38:29.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s easier or it’s more convenient. In\Nthese cases we actually get problems.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:29.28,0:38:33.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what we did is we had a second round\Nof complaints. That is now taking
Dialogue: 0,0:38:33.70,0:38:38.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these judgments onboard. You can download\Nthem on the web page as well. And there’s
Dialogue: 0,0:38:38.29,0:38:43.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also the deal that Facebook Ireland\Nwith Facebook US has signed.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:43.44,0:38:48.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To have safety to your data. And this is\Ncurrently under investigation in Ireland.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:48.76,0:38:52.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Basically I argued that they have a\Ncontract but the contract is void because
Dialogue: 0,0:38:52.72,0:38:56.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,US law says they have to do all this mass\Nsurveillance. I just got the letter that
Dialogue: 0,0:38:56.65,0:39:01.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on November, 18th Facebook has actually\Ngiven them [to the DPC] a huge amount
Dialogue: 0,0:39:01.35,0:39:06.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of information on what they’re actually\Ndoing with the data. This is now going
Dialogue: 0,0:39:06.65,0:39:10.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be under investigation. The big\Nquestion is if the DPC in Ireland is
Dialogue: 0,0:39:10.16,0:39:13.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually giving us access to this\Ninformation. Because so far all these
Dialogue: 0,0:39:13.26,0:39:17.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,evidence that they had they said:\N“it’s all secret and you cannot know
Dialogue: 0,0:39:17.47,0:39:20.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what Facebook is doing with your data\Neven though you’re fully informed about
Dialogue: 0,0:39:20.50,0:39:24.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what they’re doing with your data.”\NWhich is kind of interesting as well. But
Dialogue: 0,0:39:24.22,0:39:30.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– different issue. A big question was also\Nif there’s gonna be a Safe Harbor 2.0.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:30.26,0:39:33.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I already was told by everybody they’re\Nnot gonna call it a Safe Harbor anymore
Dialogue: 0,0:39:33.01,0:39:37.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they’re stuck with media\Nheadlines like “Safe Harbor is sunk”
Dialogue: 0,0:39:37.35,0:39:40.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or something like this.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:40.27,0:39:43.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what happened is that the US has done\Na huge lobbying effort. They have said
Dialogue: 0,0:39:43.32,0:39:46.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right on the day that all of this is based\Non wrong facts and they’ve never done
Dialogue: 0,0:39:46.49,0:39:50.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any of this; and all of this\Nis Trade War; and blablablabla.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:50.72,0:39:53.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they put a lot of pressure on them.\NI was actually talking to Jurova,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:53.51,0:39:57.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Justice Commissioner. And I was\Nimpressed by her. She actually took
Dialogue: 0,0:39:57.21,0:40:00.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a whole hour and she really knew what\Nwas going on. And at the time they had
Dialogue: 0,0:40:00.65,0:40:04.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,press releases saying: “We’re really\Ndeeply working on the new Safe Harbor”.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:04.12,0:40:07.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I was asking Jurova: “Did you get\Nany of the evidence you need to make
Dialogue: 0,0:40:07.39,0:40:10.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such a finding?” And the answer\Nwas: “Yeah, we’re still waiting for it.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:10.85,0:40:13.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We should get it next week”.\NWhich basically meant this
Dialogue: 0,0:40:13.77,0:40:17.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is never going to work out anymore. But\Nof course I think there’s a blame game
Dialogue: 0,0:40:17.81,0:40:21.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going on. The EU has to say: “We\Ntried everything to find a solution”
Dialogue: 0,0:40:21.70,0:40:24.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the US is saying: “We tried\Neverything to find a solution, too”.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:24.94,0:40:27.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then in the end they will blame\Neach other for not finding a solution.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:27.22,0:40:30.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That’s my guess. But\Nwe’ll see what happens.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:30.53,0:40:34.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The basic problem with a Safe Harbor 2\Nis that in the government sector
Dialogue: 0,0:40:34.35,0:40:38.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’d basically have to rewrite the whole\NUS legal system. Which they haven’t done
Dialogue: 0,0:40:38.38,0:40:43.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for their own citizens. So they will very\Nlikely not do it for European citizens.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:43.66,0:40:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like judicial redress. Not even an\NAmerican has judicial redress. So
Dialogue: 0,0:40:46.64,0:40:50.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they would never give that to a European.\NAnd the private area: they actually
Dialogue: 0,0:40:50.11,0:40:53.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to redraft the whole Safe Harbor\Nprinciples because they now have to be
Dialogue: 0,0:40:53.75,0:40:57.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,essentially equivalent of\Nwhat Europe is doing.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:57.46,0:41:00.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this would also protect people on\Nthe private sphere much more but it
Dialogue: 0,0:41:00.38,0:41:05.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would really take a major overhaul of\Nthe whole system. To give you an idea:
Dialogue: 0,0:41:05.20,0:41:08.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of these processing operations\Nare covered by European law. So
Dialogue: 0,0:41:08.30,0:41:12.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from collection all the way\Nto really deleting the data.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:12.58,0:41:16.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is what’s covered by the Safe\NHarbor principles. Only 2 operations
Dialogue: 0,0:41:16.61,0:41:20.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is at the closure by “transmission”\Nand the “change of purpose”. Anything else
Dialogue: 0,0:41:20.25,0:41:23.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they can do as fully as they wanna do\Nunder the current Safe Harbor things.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:23.73,0:41:26.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if you talk about “essentially\Nequivalent” you see on these spaces
Dialogue: 0,0:41:26.96,0:41:30.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already {\i1}points to slide {\i0}\Nthat this is miles apart.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:30.54,0:41:35.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what is the future of US-EU-US data\Nflows? We will have massive problems
Dialogue: 0,0:41:35.35,0:41:38.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the PRISM companies. Because\Nwhat they’re doing is just a violation
Dialogue: 0,0:41:38.13,0:41:40.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of our Fundamental Rights. Give or take\Nit – you can change the law as much
Dialogue: 0,0:41:40.95,0:41:44.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you want but you cannot\Nchange the Fundamental Rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:44.68,0:41:47.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you’ll have serious problems\Nfor businesses that are subject
Dialogue: 0,0:41:47.77,0:41:51.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to US surveillance law in\Ngeneral. So I’m wondering
Dialogue: 0,0:41:51.49,0:41:54.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the final solution is. And that\Nwas part of the issue that I had
Dialogue: 0,0:41:54.58,0:41:57.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the cases. Typically I like\Nto have a solution for all of this.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:57.50,0:42:01.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In this case I could only point at the\Nproblems but I couldn’t really come up
Dialogue: 0,0:42:01.45,0:42:05.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with solutions. Because solutions are\Nsomething that has to be done politically.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:05.98,0:42:11.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An interesting question was: “How\Nabout EU surveillance, actually?”
Dialogue: 0,0:42:11.19,0:42:15.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because aren’t they doing more or\Nless the same thing? Which is true.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:15.38,0:42:18.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the problem is that the Charta of\NFundamental Rights only applies
Dialogue: 0,0:42:18.69,0:42:23.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to anything that’s regulated by the EU.\NAnd national surveillance is exempt
Dialogue: 0,0:42:23.30,0:42:28.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from any EU law. It’s something that\Nmember states are doing all by themselves.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:28.72,0:42:32.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you’re out of luck here. You\Ncan possibly argue it through
Dialogue: 0,0:42:32.65,0:42:37.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a couple of circles; but it’s hard to\Ndo. However, 7 and 8 of the Charta
Dialogue: 0,0:42:37.84,0:42:42.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– exactly the same wording as the\NEuropean Convention of Human Rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:42.21,0:42:46.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this applies to National Security\Ncases. So the relevant Court here
Dialogue: 0,0:42:46.27,0:42:49.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is actually in Strasbourg. So you\Ncould probably end up at this Court
Dialogue: 0,0:42:49.64,0:42:53.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the same argument and say: if they\Nalready found that this is a violation
Dialogue: 0,0:42:53.03,0:42:56.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of your essence in Luxembourg – don’t\Nyou want to give us the same rights
Dialogue: 0,0:42:56.37,0:43:00.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Strasbourg as well? And these cool\NCourts are in kind of a fight about
Dialogue: 0,0:43:00.52,0:43:04.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of providing proper Privacy\Nprotection and protection in general.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:04.37,0:43:08.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So very likely you can walk up with\Na German case or with a UK case
Dialogue: 0,0:43:08.24,0:43:11.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or a French case and pretty much do\Nthe same thing here. So the judgment
Dialogue: 0,0:43:11.24,0:43:13.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will be interesting for European\Nsurveillance as well because
Dialogue: 0,0:43:13.71,0:43:16.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it’s a benchmark. And you can hardly\Nargue that the US is bad and we’re
Dialogue: 0,0:43:16.69,0:43:21.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not doing the same thing. Either solutions\Nare possibly technical solutions.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:21.20,0:43:26.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what Microsoft did with the cloud\Nservices and hosting it with the Germans.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:26.26,0:43:31.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the German Telekom. And there\Nis really the issue that if you can get
Dialogue: 0,0:43:31.19,0:43:36.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a technical solution of not having any\Naccess from the US side you can actually
Dialogue: 0,0:43:36.09,0:43:39.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get out of the whole problem. So you can\Ntry with encryption or data localization;
Dialogue: 0,0:43:39.44,0:43:43.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all this kind of stuff. However none\Nof this is really a very sexy solution
Dialogue: 0,0:43:43.21,0:43:48.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the whole issue. However it's\Nsomething that you can possibly do.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:48.53,0:43:53.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Last thing: enforcement. And this a\Nlittle bit of a pitch, I got to confess.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.66,0:43:57.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have the problem so far that
Dialogue: 0,0:43:57.17,0:44:00.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have Data Protection law in Europe.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:00.43,0:44:03.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we don’t really have enforcement. And\Nthe problem is that the lawyers don’t know
Dialogue: 0,0:44:03.09,0:44:06.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what’s happening technically. The\Ntechnical people hardly know
Dialogue: 0,0:44:06.94,0:44:10.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the law says. And then you\Nhave a funding issue. So the idea
Dialogue: 0,0:44:10.55,0:44:13.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I have right now is to create some\Nkind of an NGO or some kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:44:13.21,0:44:17.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a “Stiftung Warentest for Privacy”. To\Nkind of look into the devices we all have
Dialogue: 0,0:44:17.57,0:44:20.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and kind of have a structured system of\Nreally looking into it. And then probably
Dialogue: 0,0:44:20.88,0:44:24.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do enforcement as well if your\Nstuff that you have on your device
Dialogue: 0,0:44:24.67,0:44:28.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is not following European law.\NI think this is an approach that
Dialogue: 0,0:44:28.75,0:44:31.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably changes a lot of the issues.\NIt’s not gonna change everything.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:31.86,0:44:35.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this could possibly be a solution to\Na lot of what we had. And that’s kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:44:35.68,0:44:39.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what we did in other fields of law as\Nwell. That we have NGOs or organizations
Dialogue: 0,0:44:39.65,0:44:42.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that take care of these things. I think\Nthat would be a solution and probably
Dialogue: 0,0:44:42.78,0:44:48.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,helps a little bit. Last - before we\Nhave a question/answer session –
Dialogue: 0,0:44:48.09,0:44:51.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a little Bullshit Bingo to probably get a\Ncouple of questions answered right away.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:51.91,0:44:55.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the first thing is that a lot\Nof questions are if the EU
Dialogue: 0,0:44:55.99,0:44:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,does the same thing. I just answered it:\NOf course they do the same thing and
Dialogue: 0,0:44:59.10,0:45:01.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we’ll have to do something about it\Nas well. And I hope that my case
Dialogue: 0,0:45:01.72,0:45:06.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a good case to bring other cases\Nagainst member states of the EU.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:06.85,0:45:10.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The second question is these whole PRISM\Ncompanies are saying they don’t do this.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:10.46,0:45:14.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It’s absurd because they’re all placed\Nunder gag orders. Or the people that are
Dialogue: 0,0:45:14.42,0:45:17.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talking to us don’t even have the\Nsecurity clearance to talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:45:17.36,0:45:20.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the surveillance system. So it’s insane\Nwhen a PR person comes up and says:
Dialogue: 0,0:45:20.99,0:45:25.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“I hereby read the briefing from Facebook\Nthat we’re not doing this!”. Which
Dialogue: 0,0:45:25.04,0:45:28.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically is what we have right now.\NAnd that’s what a lot of the media
Dialogue: 0,0:45:28.62,0:45:32.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is referring to as well. Another thing\Nthat Facebook and the US government
Dialogue: 0,0:45:32.53,0:45:36.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have argued later is that they weren’t\Nasked. They were not invited to the Court
Dialogue: 0,0:45:36.11,0:45:40.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,procedure. The fun thing is: both of them\Ntotally knew about the Court procedure.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:40.51,0:45:44.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They just decided not to step in and not\Nto get a party of the procedure. So they
Dialogue: 0,0:45:44.78,0:45:46.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were like first: “Ouh,\Nwe don’t wanna talk
Dialogue: 0,0:45:46.62,0:45:49.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about it” and then when the decision
Dialogue: 0,0:45:49.72,0:45:53.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,came around they were like:\N“Oh we weren’t asked”.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:53.52,0:45:56.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course it’s a win-on-paper mainly\Nbut we’re trying to get it implemented
Dialogue: 0,0:45:56.97,0:46:01.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in practice as well. And there\Nis kind of this argument
Dialogue: 0,0:46:01.25,0:46:05.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“The EU has broken the Internet”\Nwhich I typically rebut in “No, the US
Dialogue: 0,0:46:05.49,0:46:08.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has broken the Internet and\Nthe EU is reacting to it”.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:08.99,0:46:16.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:46:16.15,0:46:19.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Another issue that was interesting\Nis that a lot of the US side said that
Dialogue: 0,0:46:19.49,0:46:23.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is protectionism. So the EU is only\Nenforcing these Fundamental Rights
Dialogue: 0,0:46:23.71,0:46:28.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to hurt US companies. Which is funny\Nbecause I’m not involved in kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:46:28.87,0:46:31.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,getting more trade to Europe. I’m\Njust like someone interested in
Dialogue: 0,0:46:31.94,0:46:36.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my Fundamental Rights. And secondly the\NEuropean politics has done everything
Dialogue: 0,0:46:36.34,0:46:40.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to kind of not get this case to cross.\NSo kind of this idea that this is
Dialogue: 0,0:46:40.61,0:46:45.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a protectionist thing is kind of strange,\Ntoo. And the last question which is:
Dialogue: 0,0:46:45.10,0:46:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“What about the Cables? What about all\Nthe other types of surveillance we have?”
Dialogue: 0,0:46:49.20,0:46:53.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They’re an issue, too. In these cases you\Njust have more issues of actual hacking,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:53.94,0:46:58.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,government hacking, basically. So\Nillegal access to servers and cables.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:58.87,0:47:02.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is harder to tackle with than\Nthese companies. Because we have
Dialogue: 0,0:47:02.05,0:47:05.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this private interference. So there are a\Nlot of other issues around here as well,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:05.72,0:47:09.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was just happy to kind of get one thing\Nacross. And I’m happy for questions,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:09.13,0:47:13.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well.\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:47:13.47,0:47:21.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Alright…\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:47:21.30,0:47:22.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: {\i1}at lowered voice{\i0}\NWie lange haben wir noch für Fragen?
Dialogue: 0,0:47:22.99,0:47:30.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: We have about\N10 minutes for questions.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:30.00,0:47:33.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would ask you to please line up at\Nthe microphones here in the hall.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:33.96,0:47:37.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have 6 microphones. And we have also
Dialogue: 0,0:47:37.26,0:47:40.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions from the IRC.\NWhile you guys queue up
Dialogue: 0,0:47:40.42,0:47:44.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would take one from the internet.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:44.22,0:47:48.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Signal Angel: Yeah, just\None – for the first time.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:48.41,0:47:51.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Does TTIP influence any of this?
Dialogue: 0,0:47:51.65,0:47:55.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: Basically, not really. Because\Nthe judgment that was done was
Dialogue: 0,0:47:55.60,0:47:58.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the Fundamental Rights. So if they\Nhave some kind of wording in TTIP
Dialogue: 0,0:47:58.24,0:48:02.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it would again be illegal. And there was\Nactually a push to get something like that
Dialogue: 0,0:48:02.74,0:48:08.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into TTIP. And as far as I know this idea\Nwas done, after the judgment. {\i1}laughs{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:48:08.75,0:48:13.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just a little intro: EDRI has organized\Nan ask-me-anything thing at 7 PM as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:13.41,0:48:17.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if you got specific questions, you\Ncan also go there. Just as a reminder.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:17.53,0:48:20.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, great.\NMicrophone No.2, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:20.98,0:48:25.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: Thank you for your\Nefforts. The question would be:
Dialogue: 0,0:48:25.22,0:48:28.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Could US businesses\Nunder these findings ever
Dialogue: 0,0:48:28.26,0:48:33.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be again employed\Nin critical sectors? E.g.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:33.93,0:48:39.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,public sector, Windows in the\NBundestag, e.g. and stuff like that?
Dialogue: 0,0:48:39.38,0:48:44.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: Yep, yip. That’s a huge problem.\NAnd that’s a problem we had for a while.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:44.23,0:48:48.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was mainly talking actually with people\Nin the business area. I’m mainly invited
Dialogue: 0,0:48:48.65,0:48:51.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to conferences there. And people\Nwere telling me: “Yeah, we’re doing
Dialogue: 0,0:48:51.46,0:48:55.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all our bank data on Google\Nnow”. And I was like: WTF?
Dialogue: 0,0:48:55.40,0:48:58.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because this is not only Privacy.\NThat’s also trade secrets, all of
Dialogue: 0,0:48:58.67,0:49:02.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this kind of stuff. So there is this\Nhuge issue and if you talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:49:02.68,0:49:06.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the new Windows that is talking home a\Nlittle more than the old did, you probably
Dialogue: 0,0:49:06.97,0:49:11.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have the same issue here because\NMicrosoft is falling under the same thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:11.01,0:49:14.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: No plausible deniability,\Ntherefor culpability.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:14.20,0:49:16.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: Yep, yep, yep.\NQ: Thank you!
Dialogue: 0,0:49:16.17,0:49:18.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: Thank you!
Dialogue: 0,0:49:18.12,0:49:20.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, microphone No.3,\Nplease, for your next question.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:20.97,0:49:24.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: How would you assess\NMicrosoft saying they put up
Dialogue: 0,0:49:24.92,0:49:29.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a huge fight that they… well,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:29.06,0:49:32.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they said they had customers’\Ndata in Ireland and they said
Dialogue: 0,0:49:32.68,0:49:36.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they refuse to give it to the FBI.\NWhat’s to think of that?
Dialogue: 0,0:49:36.07,0:49:38.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: I think to be fair a lot of\Nthese companies have realized
Dialogue: 0,0:49:38.45,0:49:42.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is an issue. And that\Nthey are the “Feuer am Arsch”.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:42.78,0:49:47.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Microsoft… actually a couple of\NMicrosoft people is talking to me
Dialogue: 0,0:49:47.17,0:49:50.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and is like: “We’re actually not\Nunhappy about this case because
Dialogue: 0,0:49:50.78,0:49:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have a good argument in the US\Nnow that we’re getting troubles here…”
Dialogue: 0,0:49:54.62,0:49:59.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the companies are between\Nthese 2 chairs. The US law says:
Dialogue: 0,0:49:59.33,0:50:02.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“We kill you if you’re not giving us all\Nthe data” and the problem so far is
Dialogue: 0,0:50:02.50,0:50:06.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that in the EU… e.g. in Austria
Dialogue: 0,0:50:06.17,0:50:09.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the maximum penalty is 25.000 Euro\Nif you don’t comply with this.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:09.80,0:50:11.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Peanuts.\NM: Which is absurd.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:11.95,0:50:15.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in most other countries it’s the same.\NWe now have the Data Protection regulation
Dialogue: 0,0:50:15.43,0:50:18.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is coming up which gives\Nyou a penalty of a maximum
Dialogue: 0,0:50:18.06,0:50:21.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of 4% of the worldwide turnover,\Nwhich is a couple of millions.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:21.58,0:50:25.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you want to thank someone there’s\NJan Philipp Albrecht, probably in the room
Dialogue: 0,0:50:25.06,0:50:28.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or not anymore, who is the member of [EU]\NParliament from the Green Party, that’s
Dialogue: 0,0:50:28.52,0:50:31.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually from Hamburg who\Nhas negotiated all of this.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:31.92,0:50:34.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this actually could possibly\Nchange a couple of these things.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:34.50,0:50:38.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you have this conflict of laws\Nand solutions like the Telekom thing –
Dialogue: 0,0:50:38.29,0:50:41.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you host the data with the Telekom –\Ncould possibly allow them to argue
Dialogue: 0,0:50:41.65,0:50:44.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the US that they don’t have any factual\Naccess anymore so they can’t give the data
Dialogue: 0,0:50:44.69,0:50:49.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the US Government. But we’re splitting\Nthe internet here. And this is not really
Dialogue: 0,0:50:49.15,0:50:53.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something I like too much, but\Napparently the only solution.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:53.27,0:50:55.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, thank you for your\Nquestion. We have another one
Dialogue: 0,0:50:55.85,0:51:00.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at microphone 4, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:00.21,0:51:07.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Thank you very much for your\Nefforts, first of all. And great result!
Dialogue: 0,0:51:07.37,0:51:09.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: Thank you.\NQ: The question from me would also be:
Dialogue: 0,0:51:09.63,0:51:12.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is there any change in the system\Nin Ireland now? So somebody has
Dialogue: 0,0:51:12.80,0:51:16.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a similar struggle to yours – the\Nnext round might be easier or not?
Dialogue: 0,0:51:16.19,0:51:19.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: Basically what the Irish DPC got\Nis a wonderful new building. And
Dialogue: 0,0:51:19.65,0:51:22.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the press release is too funny.\NBecause it says: “We have a very nice
Dialogue: 0,0:51:22.59,0:51:27.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Victorian building now downtown Dublin\Nin a very nice neighborhood“ and blablabla
Dialogue: 0,0:51:27.54,0:51:30.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they get double the staff of what\Nthey had before. The key problem
Dialogue: 0,0:51:30.02,0:51:33.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is none of this. I only took the picture\Nbecause it kind of shows what’s
Dialogue: 0,0:51:33.63,0:51:37.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inside the building. And the key\Nproblem is that we have 2 countries
Dialogue: 0,0:51:37.63,0:51:40.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– Luxembourg and Ireland, where\Nall of these headquarters are – and
Dialogue: 0,0:51:40.39,0:51:44.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these 2 countries are not interested\Nin collecting taxes, they’re
Dialogue: 0,0:51:44.08,0:51:48.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not interested in enforcing Privacy Law,\Nthey’re not interested in any of this. And
Dialogue: 0,0:51:48.26,0:51:52.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’re basically getting a huge bunch of\Nmoney in the back of the rest of the EU.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:52.36,0:51:55.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And until this actually changes\Nand there’s a change of attitude
Dialogue: 0,0:51:55.87,0:52:00.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Irish DPC it doesn’t really\Nmatter in which building they are.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:00.46,0:52:03.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they got a lot of more money to kind\Nof – to the public – say: “Yes we have
Dialogue: 0,0:52:03.71,0:52:05.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more money and we have\Nmore staff and dadadadada”…
Dialogue: 0,0:52:05.66,0:52:07.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: …but the system did not change!
Dialogue: 0,0:52:07.70,0:52:10.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: The big question is what the system is\Ndoing: they can prove now! As they have
Dialogue: 0,0:52:10.68,0:52:14.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the new complaint on their table on Safe\NHarbor and PRISM and Facebook.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:14.18,0:52:16.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They can prove; if they do something\Nabout it or not – my guess is that
Dialogue: 0,0:52:16.74,0:52:19.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they’ll find “some” random reasons\Nwhy unfortunately they couldn’t do
Dialogue: 0,0:52:19.39,0:52:23.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anything about it. We’ll see.\NQ: OK, thanks!
Dialogue: 0,0:52:23.23,0:52:26.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, thank you! It’s\Nyour turn, microphone No.2.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:26.49,0:52:32.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: OK, thank you very much and also\Nthank you for your service for the public.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:32.49,0:52:40.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: Thanks for the support!\N{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:52:40.98,0:52:45.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: What that will…\NSorry about the English…
Dialogue: 0,0:52:45.54,0:52:50.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: Sag's auf Deutsch!
Dialogue: 0,0:52:50.03,0:52:57.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Was bedeutet das eigentlich für die\NGeschichte mit der Vorratsdatenspeicherung
Dialogue: 0,0:52:57.87,0:53:03.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wenn die jetzt wieder kommt?\NUnd inwiefern wird Social Media
Dialogue: 0,0:53:03.70,0:53:08.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,damit jetzt sozusagen freigestellt\Nwieder oder nicht?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:08.41,0:53:12.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: To be honest I didn’t really look\Ninto the German Data Retention thing
Dialogue: 0,0:53:12.06,0:53:15.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,too much. To be honest, being an Austrian\NI’m like “Our Supreme Cou… Constitu…”
Dialogue: 0,0:53:15.61,0:53:17.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Me, too!\N{\i1}audience laughing{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:53:17.06,0:53:21.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: Yeah, I heard. “Our Constitutional\NCourt kind of killed it”, so…
Dialogue: 0,0:53:21.21,0:53:25.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don’t think we’ll see a Data\NRetention in Austria too soon.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:25.06,0:53:27.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But for Germany it’s gonna be interesting\Nespecially if you find a way to
Dialogue: 0,0:53:27.38,0:53:31.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go to Luxembourg in the end. Like if you\Nfind some hook to say: “Actually,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:31.49,0:53:34.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this German law violates something\Nin the Data Protection Regulation
Dialogue: 0,0:53:34.93,0:53:38.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or in the Directive“. So we can probably\Nfind a way to go back to Luxembourg.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:38.98,0:53:41.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Could help. The other thing is that just\Nthe fact that the Luxembourg Court
Dialogue: 0,0:53:41.29,0:53:46.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has been so active has probably boosted\Nup a lot of the National Courts as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:46.10,0:53:50.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because the German decision, I had\Nthe feeling was like a “We don’t really
Dialogue: 0,0:53:50.02,0:53:53.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,feel like we can fully say that this is\Nactually illegal and we kind of argued
Dialogue: 0,0:53:53.49,0:53:56.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it’s somehow not illegal the way\Nit is, but possibly you can do it
Dialogue: 0,0:53:56.23,0:54:00.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the future and uooah…“. And after\NLuxembourg has really thrown
Dialogue: 0,0:54:00.09,0:54:04.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of this right out of the door and was\Nlike: “Get lost with your Data Retention
Dialogue: 0,0:54:04.79,0:54:08.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing and especially with the PRISM thing”\Nyou probably have better case law now,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:08.20,0:54:11.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well. And that could be relevant\Nfor National Courts as well. Because
Dialogue: 0,0:54:11.24,0:54:16.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course these things are question of\Nproportionality. And if we ask everybody
Dialogue: 0,0:54:16.16,0:54:18.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here in the room what they\Nthink is proportionate or not,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:18.43,0:54:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everyone has another opinion. And\Ntherefore it’s relevant what our people
Dialogue: 0,0:54:22.40,0:54:25.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are saying and what other Courts are\Nsaying to probably get the level of
Dialogue: 0,0:54:25.26,0:54:28.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what we feel as proportionate\Nsomehow a little bit up.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:28.78,0:54:31.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: So thank you very much. And go on!\NM: Thank you!
Dialogue: 0,0:54:31.64,0:54:35.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, just for the record, in\Ncase you couldn’t tell by the answer:
Dialogue: 0,0:54:35.61,0:54:39.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the question was about the implications\Nfor the Data Retention Laws, like
Dialogue: 0,0:54:39.68,0:54:44.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Germany and Austria. Microphone\NNo.1, we have another question.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:44.69,0:54:48.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: Hi! Two questions. One: could\Nyou tell a little bit more about your idea
Dialogue: 0,0:54:48.75,0:54:55.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of “Stiftung Datenschutz” Europe-wide?\NAnd how do we get funding to you…
Dialogue: 0,0:54:55.85,0:54:58.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,M: Send me an email!\NQ: …if you don’t mind?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:58.69,0:55:03.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Second question: when I argue with people\Nabout like “Let’s keep the personal data
Dialogue: 0,0:55:03.81,0:55:08.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of all activists within Europe!” I always\Nget this answer: “Yeah, are you so naive,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:08.30,0:55:11.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do you think it’s anything different\Nif the server stands in Frankfurt
Dialogue: 0,0:55:11.77,0:55:14.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instead of San Francisco?”\NWhat do you say to that?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:14.17,0:55:17.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: The same problem, like pretty much\Nwhat we have is – and that’s the reason
Dialogue: 0,0:55:17.67,0:55:20.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why I said I hope this judgment is used\Nfor National surveillance in Europe,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:20.41,0:55:25.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well. Because we do have the same\Nissues. I mean when you are an Austrian
Dialogue: 0,0:55:25.19,0:55:29.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the German “Untersuchungsausschuss”\Nis basically saying: “Ah, we’re only
Dialogue: 0,0:55:29.56,0:55:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protecting Germans” I feel like my\Nfucking data is going through Frankfurt
Dialogue: 0,0:55:32.84,0:55:36.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the times. And I’m kind of out of\Nthe scope, apparently. So we do need
Dialogue: 0,0:55:36.75,0:55:39.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to take care of this as well. I hope\Nthat this is a case showing that
Dialogue: 0,0:55:39.37,0:55:42.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can actually take action. You\Njust have to poke long enough and
Dialogue: 0,0:55:42.58,0:55:47.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of poke at the right spot especially.\NAnd I think this is something that…
Dialogue: 0,0:55:47.77,0:55:51.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there’s not an ultimate solution to it.\NIt’s just one of the kind of holes
Dialogue: 0,0:55:51.28,0:55:54.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you have. The other thing that we\Nmay see is that a lot of companies that
Dialogue: 0,0:55:54.87,0:55:59.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are holding this data are much more\Nquestioning an order they get.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:59.63,0:56:03.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because if they get legal problems from\Nan order they got by a German Court
Dialogue: 0,0:56:03.54,0:56:08.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or whatever it is they probably\Nare now more interested in – and
Dialogue: 0,0:56:08.21,0:56:10.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually looking at it. Because\Nright now it’s cheaper for them
Dialogue: 0,0:56:10.53,0:56:14.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to just forward the data. You don’t need\Na whole Legal Team, reviewing it all.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:14.39,0:56:17.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think to kind of split the private\Ncompanies that are helping them
Dialogue: 0,0:56:17.76,0:56:21.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the Government and kind of get some\Nissue between them probably helps there,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:21.88,0:56:25.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well. But of course it’s just like\Nlittle peanuts you put in there.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:25.01,0:56:28.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in the end you have that\Nissue, in the end. Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:28.93,0:56:34.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the “Stiftung Datenschutz” or whatever:\NI think that’s kind of a thing I just
Dialogue: 0,0:56:34.66,0:56:37.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wanted to blow out to people here, because\NI’m mainly in the legal sphere and in,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:37.71,0:56:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the activist/consumer side. And\NI think that’s the big problem we have
Dialogue: 0,0:56:43.20,0:56:48.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the legal and consumer side is that we\Ndon’t understand the devices that much.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:48.25,0:56:51.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we lack the evidence. We\Ndon’t really have the evidence of
Dialogue: 0,0:56:51.05,0:56:54.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what’s actually going on on devices\Nand you need to have this evidence
Dialogue: 0,0:56:54.05,0:56:56.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you go in front of Courts. I think\Na lot of the people in the room probably
Dialogue: 0,0:56:56.87,0:57:00.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have this evidence somewhere on the\Ncomputer. So the idea of really getting
Dialogue: 0,0:57:00.89,0:57:03.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this connection at some point – it’s not\Nsomething I can pitch to you right away,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:03.67,0:57:07.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it’s not… like I don’t wanna\Nstart it tomorrow. But it’s something
Dialogue: 0,0:57:07.22,0:57:10.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to circulate to get feedback\Nas well, what you guys think of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:10.56,0:57:15.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if there’s any feedback on it, send me\Nan email, or twitter. Or whatever it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:15.56,0:57:21.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:57:21.52,0:57:23.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: So we do have a bit time left,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:23.79,0:57:26.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,microphone No.2 with the\Nnext question, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:26.64,0:57:31.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: What can I do as an individual\Nperson now? Can I sue Google
Dialogue: 0,0:57:31.39,0:57:35.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or can I sue other companies\Njust to stop this?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:35.77,0:57:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And would it create some\Npressure if I do that?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:40.16,0:57:43.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what can the ordinary\Ncitizen do now?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:43.04,0:57:47.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Max: We’re right now… I already prepared\Nit but I didn’t have time to send it out
Dialogue: 0,0:57:47.16,0:57:50.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have complaints against the Googles and\Nall the others that are on the PRISM list.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:50.07,0:57:53.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We started with Facebook because I kind\Nof know them the best. And, you know, so
Dialogue: 0,0:57:53.18,0:57:57.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was a good start. And the idea\Nwas really to have other people
Dialogue: 0,0:57:57.43,0:58:00.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably copy-pasting this. The complaint\Nagainst Facebook we actually filed
Dialogue: 0,0:58:00.79,0:58:05.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the Hamburg DPC, as well, and the\NBelgium DPC. The idea behind it was
Dialogue: 0,0:58:05.11,0:58:08.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the Irish now suddenly have 2 other\NDPCs that are more interested in
Dialogue: 0,0:58:08.67,0:58:12.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforcing the law in their boat. So\Nthey’re not the only captains anymore.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:12.94,0:58:17.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it’s interesting what’s gonna happen\Nhere. If there are other people
Dialogue: 0,0:58:17.33,0:58:21.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that have other cases and just file a\Ncomplaint with your Data Protection
Dialogue: 0,0:58:21.66,0:58:25.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,authority, a lot of them, especially the\NGerman Data Protection authorities
Dialogue: 0,0:58:25.20,0:58:28.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– most of them – are really interested\Nin doing something about it, but
Dialogue: 0,0:58:28.94,0:58:32.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they oftentimes just need a case. They\Nneed someone to complain about it and
Dialogue: 0,0:58:32.26,0:58:37.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone giving them the evidence and\Nsomeone arguing it, to get things started.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:37.07,0:58:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if anyone is using Google Drive\Nor something like that – let’s go.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:41.76,0:58:44.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And basically the wording is on our web\Npage. You just have to download it
Dialogue: 0,0:58:44.75,0:58:50.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and reword it. And we’re gonna probably\Npublish on the website the complaints
Dialogue: 0,0:58:50.30,0:58:53.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against the other companies, as soon as\Nthey’re out. Probably the next 2..3 weeks.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:53.08,0:59:00.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Something like this. So just\Ncopy-paste and spread the love.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:00.27,0:59:04.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: OK, thank you\Nvery much, Max, again!
Dialogue: 0,0:59:04.26,0:59:07.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For your great talk. This is it!
Dialogue: 0,0:59:07.53,0:59:10.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}postroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.43,0:59:17.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin 2016. Join and help us do more!{\i0}