1 00:00:00,556 --> 00:00:02,572 Audrey Tang: Very happy to be joining you, 2 00:00:02,596 --> 00:00:04,362 and good local time, everyone. 3 00:00:06,135 --> 00:00:08,402 David Biello: So, tell us about -- 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,110 Sorry to -- 5 00:00:10,420 --> 00:00:12,890 Tell us about digital tools and COVID. 6 00:00:14,196 --> 00:00:15,347 AT: Sure. 7 00:00:15,371 --> 00:00:17,738 Yeah, I'm really happy to share with you 8 00:00:17,762 --> 00:00:20,542 how Taiwan successfully countered the COVID 9 00:00:20,566 --> 00:00:23,402 using the power of digital democracy tools. 10 00:00:24,101 --> 00:00:27,728 As we know, democracy improves as more people participate. 11 00:00:27,752 --> 00:00:32,245 And digital technology remains one of the best ways to improve participation, 12 00:00:32,269 --> 00:00:34,658 as long as the focus is on finding common ground, 13 00:00:34,682 --> 00:00:38,785 that is to say, prosocial media instead of antisocial media. 14 00:00:38,809 --> 00:00:42,490 And there's three key ideas that I would like to share today 15 00:00:42,514 --> 00:00:46,863 about digital democracy that is fast, fair and fun. 16 00:00:48,277 --> 00:00:50,283 First about the fast part. 17 00:00:50,307 --> 00:00:54,021 Whereas many jurisdictions began countering coronavirus only this year, 18 00:00:54,045 --> 00:00:55,871 Taiwan started last year. 19 00:00:55,895 --> 00:00:59,569 Last December, when Dr. Li Wenliang, the PRC whistleblower, 20 00:00:59,593 --> 00:01:02,307 posted that there are new SARS cases, 21 00:01:02,331 --> 00:01:04,609 he got inquiries and eventually punishments 22 00:01:04,633 --> 00:01:06,648 from PRC police institutions. 23 00:01:06,958 --> 00:01:08,108 But at the same time, 24 00:01:08,132 --> 00:01:11,069 the Taiwan equivalent of Reddit, the Ptt board, 25 00:01:11,093 --> 00:01:12,926 has someone called nomorepipe 26 00:01:12,950 --> 00:01:15,744 reposting Dr. Li Wenliang's whistleblowing. 27 00:01:15,768 --> 00:01:18,733 And our medical officers immediately noticed this post 28 00:01:18,757 --> 00:01:20,312 and issued an order that says 29 00:01:20,336 --> 00:01:23,018 all passengers flying in from Wuhan to Taiwan 30 00:01:23,042 --> 00:01:25,487 need to start health inspections the very next day, 31 00:01:25,511 --> 00:01:27,574 which is the first day of January. 32 00:01:27,598 --> 00:01:29,450 And this says to me two things. 33 00:01:29,474 --> 00:01:31,983 First, the civil society trusts the government enough 34 00:01:32,007 --> 00:01:34,974 to talk about possible new SARS outbreaks in the public forum. 35 00:01:34,998 --> 00:01:36,965 And the government trusts citizens enough 36 00:01:36,989 --> 00:01:40,220 to take it seriously and treat it as if SARS has happened again, 37 00:01:40,244 --> 00:01:43,514 something we've always been preparing for, since 2003. 38 00:01:43,538 --> 00:01:45,895 And because of this open civil society, 39 00:01:45,919 --> 00:01:49,783 according to the CIVICUS Monitor after the Sunflower Occupy, 40 00:01:49,807 --> 00:01:52,970 Taiwan is now the most open society in the whole of Asia. 41 00:01:52,994 --> 00:01:55,800 We enjoy the same freedom of speech, of assembly, 42 00:01:55,824 --> 00:01:58,291 [unclear] as other liberal democracies, 43 00:01:58,315 --> 00:02:00,522 but with the emphasis on keeping an open mind 44 00:02:00,546 --> 00:02:03,395 to novel ideas from the society. 45 00:02:03,419 --> 00:02:06,919 And that is why our schools and businesses still remain open today, 46 00:02:06,943 --> 00:02:08,172 there was no lockdown, 47 00:02:08,196 --> 00:02:10,751 it's been a month with no local confirmed cases. 48 00:02:11,513 --> 00:02:12,663 So the fast part. 49 00:02:12,997 --> 00:02:16,268 Every day, our Central Epidemic Command Center, or CECC, 50 00:02:16,292 --> 00:02:18,935 holds a press conference, which is always livestreamed, 51 00:02:18,959 --> 00:02:20,602 and we work with the journalists, 52 00:02:20,626 --> 00:02:23,037 they answer all the questions from the journalists, 53 00:02:23,061 --> 00:02:26,149 and whenever there's a new idea coming in from the social sector, 54 00:02:26,173 --> 00:02:28,299 anyone can pick up their phone and call 1922 55 00:02:28,323 --> 00:02:30,458 and tell that idea to the CECC. 56 00:02:30,482 --> 00:02:32,752 For example, there was one day in April 57 00:02:32,776 --> 00:02:35,744 where a young boy has said he doesn't want to go to school 58 00:02:35,768 --> 00:02:37,728 because his school mates may laugh at him 59 00:02:37,752 --> 00:02:40,458 because all he had is a pink medical mask. 60 00:02:40,482 --> 00:02:41,657 The very next day, 61 00:02:41,681 --> 00:02:45,672 everybody in the CECC press conference started wearing pink medical masks, 62 00:02:45,696 --> 00:02:48,630 making sure that everybody learns about gender mainstreaming. 63 00:02:48,654 --> 00:02:50,670 And so this kind of rapid response system 64 00:02:50,694 --> 00:02:53,704 builds trust between the government and the civil society. 65 00:02:53,728 --> 00:02:55,569 And the second focus is fairness. 66 00:02:55,593 --> 00:02:58,729 Making sure everybody can use their national health insurance card 67 00:02:58,753 --> 00:03:00,696 to collect masks from nearby pharmacies, 68 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,291 not only do we publish the stock level of masks of all pharmacies, 69 00:03:04,315 --> 00:03:05,481 6,000 of them, 70 00:03:05,505 --> 00:03:08,077 we publish it every 30 seconds. 71 00:03:08,101 --> 00:03:12,092 That's why our civic hackers, our civil engineers in the digital space, 72 00:03:12,116 --> 00:03:16,250 built more than 100 tools that enable people to view a map, 73 00:03:16,274 --> 00:03:20,156 or people with blindness who talk to chat bots, voice assistants, 74 00:03:20,180 --> 00:03:23,297 all of them can get the same inclusive access to information 75 00:03:23,321 --> 00:03:26,051 about which pharmacies near them still have masks. 76 00:03:26,075 --> 00:03:28,789 And because the national health insurance single payer 77 00:03:28,813 --> 00:03:31,980 is more than 99.9 percent of health coverage, 78 00:03:32,004 --> 00:03:33,458 people who show any symptoms 79 00:03:33,482 --> 00:03:35,641 will then be able to take the medical mask, 80 00:03:35,665 --> 00:03:36,950 go to a local clinic, 81 00:03:36,974 --> 00:03:39,205 knowing fully that they will get treated fairly 82 00:03:39,229 --> 00:03:41,267 without incurring any financial burden. 83 00:03:41,291 --> 00:03:42,934 And so people designed a dashboard 84 00:03:42,958 --> 00:03:45,498 that lets everybody see our supply is indeed growing, 85 00:03:45,522 --> 00:03:47,752 and whether there's over- or undersupply, 86 00:03:47,776 --> 00:03:50,315 so that we codesign this distribution system 87 00:03:50,339 --> 00:03:52,760 with the pharmacies, with the whole of society. 88 00:03:52,784 --> 00:03:54,783 So based on this analysis, 89 00:03:54,807 --> 00:03:58,677 we show that there was a peak at 70 percent, 90 00:03:58,701 --> 00:04:02,955 and that remaining 20 percent of people were often young, work very long hours, 91 00:04:02,979 --> 00:04:05,917 when they go off work, the pharmacies also went off work, 92 00:04:05,941 --> 00:04:08,184 and so we work with convenience stores 93 00:04:08,208 --> 00:04:10,520 so that everybody can collect their mask anytime, 94 00:04:10,544 --> 00:04:11,955 24 hours a day. 95 00:04:11,979 --> 00:04:13,737 So we ensure fairness of all kinds, 96 00:04:13,761 --> 00:04:16,561 based on the digital democracy's feedback. 97 00:04:17,074 --> 00:04:20,680 And finally, I would like to acknowledge that this is a very stressful time. 98 00:04:20,704 --> 00:04:22,998 People feel anxious, outraged, 99 00:04:23,022 --> 00:04:24,467 there's a lot of panic buying, 100 00:04:24,491 --> 00:04:27,315 a lot of conspiracy theories in all economies. 101 00:04:27,339 --> 00:04:28,512 And in Taiwan, 102 00:04:28,536 --> 00:04:31,330 our counter-disinformation strategy is very simple. 103 00:04:31,354 --> 00:04:33,866 It's called "humor over rumor." 104 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:37,220 So when there was a panic buying of tissue paper, for example, 105 00:04:37,244 --> 00:04:38,680 there was a rumor that says, 106 00:04:38,704 --> 00:04:40,537 "Oh, we're ramping up mass production, 107 00:04:40,561 --> 00:04:42,474 it's the same material as tissue papers, 108 00:04:42,498 --> 00:04:44,879 and so we'll run out of tissue paper soon." 109 00:04:44,903 --> 00:04:48,868 And our premier showed a very memetic picture 110 00:04:48,892 --> 00:04:50,727 that I simply have to share with you. 111 00:04:50,751 --> 00:04:52,116 In very large print, 112 00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:54,623 he shows his bottom, 113 00:04:54,647 --> 00:04:56,839 wiggling it a little bit, 114 00:04:56,863 --> 00:04:58,887 and then the large print says 115 00:04:58,911 --> 00:05:01,707 "Each of us only have one pair of buttocks." 116 00:05:01,731 --> 00:05:04,744 And of course, the serious table shows 117 00:05:04,768 --> 00:05:07,704 that tissue paper came from South American materials, 118 00:05:07,728 --> 00:05:09,950 and medical masks come from domestic materials, 119 00:05:09,974 --> 00:05:12,418 and there's no way that ramping up production of one 120 00:05:12,442 --> 00:05:14,791 will hurt the production of the other. 121 00:05:14,815 --> 00:05:16,847 And so that went absolutely viral. 122 00:05:16,871 --> 00:05:19,228 And because of that, the panic buying died down 123 00:05:19,252 --> 00:05:20,688 in a day or two. 124 00:05:20,712 --> 00:05:24,332 And finally, we found out the person who spread the rumor in the first place 125 00:05:24,356 --> 00:05:25,791 was the tissue paper reseller. 126 00:05:25,815 --> 00:05:28,553 And this is not just a single shock point in social media. 127 00:05:28,577 --> 00:05:29,734 Every single day, 128 00:05:29,758 --> 00:05:31,776 the daily press conference gets translated 129 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,455 by the spokesdog of the Ministry of Health and Welfare, 130 00:05:34,479 --> 00:05:36,658 that translated a lot of things. 131 00:05:36,682 --> 00:05:40,609 For example, our physical distancing is phrased as saying 132 00:05:40,633 --> 00:05:43,730 "If you are outdoors, you need to keep two dog-lengths away, 133 00:05:43,754 --> 00:05:46,794 if you are indoor, three dog-lengths away," and so on. 134 00:05:46,818 --> 00:05:48,863 And hand sanitation rules, and so on. 135 00:05:48,887 --> 00:05:50,712 So because all this goes viral, 136 00:05:50,736 --> 00:05:54,029 we make sure that the factual humor spreads faster than rumor. 137 00:05:54,053 --> 00:05:56,651 And they serve as a vaccine, as inoculation, 138 00:05:56,675 --> 00:05:58,958 so that when people see the conspiracy theories, 139 00:05:58,982 --> 00:06:01,093 the R0 value of that will be below one, 140 00:06:01,117 --> 00:06:03,919 meaning that those ideas will not spread. 141 00:06:03,943 --> 00:06:06,610 And so I only have this five-minute briefing, 142 00:06:06,634 --> 00:06:09,078 the rest of it will be driven by your Q and A, 143 00:06:09,102 --> 00:06:10,713 but please feel free to read more 144 00:06:10,737 --> 00:06:13,421 about Taiwan's counter-coronavirus strategy, 145 00:06:13,445 --> 00:06:15,164 at taiwancanhelp.us. 146 00:06:15,188 --> 00:06:16,338 Thank you. 147 00:06:19,109 --> 00:06:20,783 DB: That's incredible. 148 00:06:20,807 --> 00:06:25,233 And I love this "humor versus rumor." 149 00:06:26,219 --> 00:06:28,242 The problem here in the US, perhaps, 150 00:06:28,266 --> 00:06:33,415 is that the rumors seem to travel faster than any response, 151 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:34,645 whether humorous or not. 152 00:06:34,669 --> 00:06:38,334 How do you defeat that aspect in Taiwan? 153 00:06:39,527 --> 00:06:41,670 AT: Yeah, we found that, of course, 154 00:06:41,694 --> 00:06:45,340 humor implicitly means there is a sublimation 155 00:06:45,364 --> 00:06:48,934 of upsetness, of outrage. 156 00:06:48,958 --> 00:06:52,934 And so as you see, for example, in our premier's example, 157 00:06:52,958 --> 00:06:55,029 he makes fun of himself. 158 00:06:55,053 --> 00:06:58,849 He doesn't make a joke at the expense of other people. 159 00:06:58,873 --> 00:07:00,357 And this was the key. 160 00:07:00,381 --> 00:07:02,286 Because people think it hilarious, 161 00:07:02,310 --> 00:07:03,460 they share it, 162 00:07:03,484 --> 00:07:06,428 but with no malicious or toxic intentions. 163 00:07:06,452 --> 00:07:08,378 People remember the actual payload, 164 00:07:08,402 --> 00:07:11,355 that table about materials used to produce masks, 165 00:07:11,379 --> 00:07:12,550 much more easily. 166 00:07:12,574 --> 00:07:16,930 If they make a joke that excludes parts of the society, 167 00:07:16,954 --> 00:07:19,550 of course, that part of society will feel outraged 168 00:07:19,574 --> 00:07:21,907 and we will end up creating more divisiveness, 169 00:07:21,931 --> 00:07:24,074 rather than prosocial behavior. 170 00:07:24,098 --> 00:07:27,410 So the humor at no expense, 171 00:07:27,434 --> 00:07:30,144 not excluding any part of society, 172 00:07:30,168 --> 00:07:31,835 I think that was the key. 173 00:07:33,847 --> 00:07:35,044 DB: It's also incredible 174 00:07:35,068 --> 00:07:40,854 because Taiwan has such close ties to the origin point of this. 175 00:07:40,878 --> 00:07:42,045 AT: PRC, yes. 176 00:07:42,069 --> 00:07:43,235 DB: The mainland. 177 00:07:43,259 --> 00:07:47,204 So given those close economic ties, 178 00:07:47,228 --> 00:07:51,021 how do you survive that kind of disruption? 179 00:07:52,919 --> 00:07:56,425 AT: Yeah, I mean, at this moment, 180 00:07:56,449 --> 00:07:59,887 it's been almost a month now with no local confirmed cases, 181 00:07:59,911 --> 00:08:01,141 so we're doing fine. 182 00:08:01,165 --> 00:08:02,832 And what we are doing, essentially, 183 00:08:02,856 --> 00:08:06,641 is just to respond faster than pretty much anyone. 184 00:08:06,665 --> 00:08:09,260 We started responding last year, 185 00:08:09,284 --> 00:08:12,624 whereas pretty much everybody else started responding this year. 186 00:08:12,648 --> 00:08:15,909 We tried to warn the world last year, but, anyway. 187 00:08:15,933 --> 00:08:17,086 So in any case, 188 00:08:17,110 --> 00:08:19,848 the point here is that if you start early enough, 189 00:08:19,872 --> 00:08:23,355 you get to make sure that the border control 190 00:08:23,379 --> 00:08:28,823 is the main point where you quarantine all the returning residents and so on, 191 00:08:28,847 --> 00:08:31,786 instead of waiting until the community spread stage, 192 00:08:31,810 --> 00:08:35,672 where even more human-right invading techniques 193 00:08:35,696 --> 00:08:38,402 would probably have to be deployed one way or the other. 194 00:08:38,426 --> 00:08:41,682 And so in Taiwan, we've not declared an emergency situation. 195 00:08:41,706 --> 00:08:44,285 We're firmly under the constitutional law. 196 00:08:44,309 --> 00:08:47,095 Because of that, every measure the administration is taking 197 00:08:47,119 --> 00:08:49,609 is also applicable in non-coronavirus times. 198 00:08:49,633 --> 00:08:51,704 And this forces us to innovate. 199 00:08:51,728 --> 00:08:55,992 Much as the idea of "we are an open liberal democracy" 200 00:08:56,016 --> 00:08:58,318 prevented us from doing takedowns. 201 00:08:58,342 --> 00:09:01,532 And therefore, we have to innovate of humor versus rumor, 202 00:09:01,556 --> 00:09:04,268 because the easy path, the takedown of online speech, 203 00:09:04,292 --> 00:09:06,283 is not accessible to us. 204 00:09:06,307 --> 00:09:09,481 Our design criteria, which is no lockdowns, 205 00:09:09,505 --> 00:09:13,132 also prevented us from doing any, you know, 206 00:09:13,156 --> 00:09:16,507 very invasive privacy encroaching response system. 207 00:09:16,531 --> 00:09:18,389 So we have to innovate at the border, 208 00:09:18,413 --> 00:09:21,396 and make sure that we have a sufficient number of, for example, 209 00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:23,872 quarantine hotels or the so-called "digital fences," 210 00:09:23,896 --> 00:09:28,529 where your phone is basically connected to the nearby telecoms, 211 00:09:28,553 --> 00:09:33,347 and they make sure that if they go out of the 15-meter or so radius, 212 00:09:33,371 --> 00:09:38,114 an SMS is sent to the local household managers or police and so on. 213 00:09:38,138 --> 00:09:41,052 But because we focus all these measures at the border, 214 00:09:41,076 --> 00:09:43,686 the vast majority of people live a normal life. 215 00:09:45,267 --> 00:09:47,130 DB: Let's talk about that a little bit. 216 00:09:47,154 --> 00:09:49,497 So walk me through the digital tools 217 00:09:49,521 --> 00:09:52,219 and how they were applied to COVID. 218 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:54,362 AT: Yes. 219 00:09:54,386 --> 00:09:57,791 So there's three parts that I just outlined. 220 00:09:57,815 --> 00:10:00,887 The first one is the collective intelligence system. 221 00:10:00,911 --> 00:10:02,402 Through online spaces 222 00:10:02,426 --> 00:10:06,387 that we design to be devoid of Reply buttons, 223 00:10:06,411 --> 00:10:09,228 because we see that, when there's Reply buttons, 224 00:10:09,252 --> 00:10:13,448 people focus on each other's face part, not the book part, 225 00:10:13,472 --> 00:10:15,006 and without "Reply" buttons, 226 00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:17,085 you can get collective intelligence 227 00:10:17,109 --> 00:10:22,156 working out their rough consensus of where the direction is going 228 00:10:22,180 --> 00:10:23,783 with the response strategies. 229 00:10:23,807 --> 00:10:25,656 So we use a lot of new technologies, 230 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:26,831 such as Polis, 231 00:10:26,855 --> 00:10:30,473 which is essentially a forum that lets you upvote and downvote 232 00:10:30,497 --> 00:10:32,934 each other's feelings, 233 00:10:32,958 --> 00:10:34,926 but with real-time clustering, 234 00:10:34,950 --> 00:10:37,641 so that if you go to cohack.tw, 235 00:10:37,665 --> 00:10:39,732 you see six such conversations, 236 00:10:39,756 --> 00:10:42,721 talking about how to protect the most vulnerable people, 237 00:10:42,745 --> 00:10:44,348 how to make a smooth transition, 238 00:10:44,372 --> 00:10:47,815 how to make a fair distribution of supplies and so on. 239 00:10:47,839 --> 00:10:50,299 And people are free to voice their ideas, 240 00:10:50,323 --> 00:10:52,625 and upvote and downvote each other's ideas. 241 00:10:52,649 --> 00:10:56,434 But the trick is that we show people the main divisive points, 242 00:10:56,458 --> 00:10:57,958 and the main consensual points, 243 00:10:57,982 --> 00:11:00,276 and we respond only to the ideas 244 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:03,053 that can convince all the different opinion groups. 245 00:11:03,077 --> 00:11:07,017 So people are encouraged to post more eclectic, more nuanced ideas 246 00:11:07,041 --> 00:11:10,326 and they discover, at the end of this consultation, 247 00:11:10,350 --> 00:11:12,684 that everybody, actually, agrees with most things, 248 00:11:12,708 --> 00:11:15,406 with most of their neighbors on most of the issues. 249 00:11:15,430 --> 00:11:17,895 And that is what we call the social mandate, 250 00:11:17,919 --> 00:11:19,339 or the democratic mandate, 251 00:11:19,363 --> 00:11:23,299 that then informs our development of the counter-coronavirus strategy 252 00:11:23,323 --> 00:11:25,911 and helping the world with such tools. 253 00:11:25,935 --> 00:11:27,397 And so this is the first part, 254 00:11:27,421 --> 00:11:30,476 it's called listening at scale for rough consensus. 255 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:34,040 The second part I already covered is the distribute ledger, 256 00:11:34,064 --> 00:11:36,306 where everybody can go to a nearby pharmacy, 257 00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:40,029 present their NHI card, buy nine masks, or 10 if you're a child, 258 00:11:40,053 --> 00:11:43,323 and see the stock level of that pharmacy on their phone 259 00:11:43,347 --> 00:11:47,029 actually decreasing by nine or 10 in a couple of minutes. 260 00:11:47,053 --> 00:11:49,141 And if they grow by nine or 10, 261 00:11:49,165 --> 00:11:50,653 of course, you call the 1922, 262 00:11:50,677 --> 00:11:52,887 and report something fishy is going on. 263 00:11:52,911 --> 00:11:55,241 But this is participatory accountability. 264 00:11:55,265 --> 00:11:56,998 This is published every 30 seconds. 265 00:11:57,022 --> 00:11:59,069 So everybody holds each other accountable, 266 00:11:59,093 --> 00:12:01,196 and that massively increases trust. 267 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:04,557 And finally, the third one, the humor versus rumor, 268 00:12:04,581 --> 00:12:07,403 I think the important thing to see here 269 00:12:07,427 --> 00:12:10,967 is that wherever there's a trending disinformation or conspiracy theory, 270 00:12:10,991 --> 00:12:13,410 you respond to it with a humorous package 271 00:12:13,434 --> 00:12:14,696 within two hours. 272 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,487 We have discovered, if we respond within two hours, 273 00:12:17,511 --> 00:12:21,543 then more people see the vaccination than the conspiracy theory. 274 00:12:21,567 --> 00:12:25,255 But if you respond four hours or a day afterwards, 275 00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:26,472 then that's a lost cause. 276 00:12:26,496 --> 00:12:29,767 You can't really counter that using humor anymore, 277 00:12:29,791 --> 00:12:33,156 you have to invite the person who spread those messages 278 00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:34,783 into cocreation workshops. 279 00:12:34,807 --> 00:12:36,607 But we're OK with that too. 280 00:12:37,807 --> 00:12:39,276 DB: Your speed is incredible. 281 00:12:39,300 --> 00:12:42,336 I see Whitney has joined us with some questions. 282 00:12:42,990 --> 00:12:44,856 Whitney Pennigton Rogers: That's right, 283 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,234 we have a few coming in already from the audience. 284 00:12:47,258 --> 00:12:48,440 Hi there, Audrey. 285 00:12:48,464 --> 00:12:52,140 And we'll start with one from our community member Michael Backes. 286 00:12:52,164 --> 00:12:56,117 He asks how long has humor versus rumor been a strategy 287 00:12:56,141 --> 00:12:57,333 that you've implemented. 288 00:12:57,357 --> 00:12:58,508 Excuse me. 289 00:12:58,532 --> 00:13:01,318 "How long has humor versus rumor strategy been implemented? 290 00:13:01,342 --> 00:13:05,056 Were comedians consulted to make the humor?" 291 00:13:05,713 --> 00:13:06,904 AT: Yes, definitely. 292 00:13:06,928 --> 00:13:10,391 Comedians are our most cherished colleagues. 293 00:13:10,415 --> 00:13:15,522 And each and every ministry has a team of what we call participation officers 294 00:13:15,546 --> 00:13:19,283 in charge of engaging with trending topics. 295 00:13:19,307 --> 00:13:22,031 And it's a more than 100 people-strong team now. 296 00:13:22,055 --> 00:13:24,623 We meet every month and also every couple of weeks 297 00:13:24,647 --> 00:13:26,472 on specific topics. 298 00:13:26,496 --> 00:13:30,987 It's been like that since late 2016, 299 00:13:31,011 --> 00:13:35,172 but it's not until our previous spokesperson, Kolas Yotaka, 300 00:13:35,196 --> 00:13:37,862 joined about a year and a half ago, 301 00:13:37,886 --> 00:13:40,418 do the professional comedians get to the team. 302 00:13:40,442 --> 00:13:46,659 Previously, this was more about inviting the people who post, you know, 303 00:13:46,683 --> 00:13:51,350 quotes like "Our tax filing system is explosively hostile," 304 00:13:51,374 --> 00:13:52,526 and gets trending, 305 00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:55,492 and previously, the POs just invited those people. 306 00:13:55,516 --> 00:13:57,049 Everybody who complains 307 00:13:57,073 --> 00:13:59,412 about the finance minister's tax-filing experience 308 00:13:59,436 --> 00:14:02,411 gets invited to the cocreation of that tax filing experience. 309 00:14:02,435 --> 00:14:03,746 So previously, it was that. 310 00:14:03,770 --> 00:14:06,854 But Kolas Yotaka and the premier Su Tseng-chang said, 311 00:14:06,878 --> 00:14:09,132 wouldn't it be much better and reach more people 312 00:14:09,156 --> 00:14:12,371 if we add some dogs to it or cat's pictures to it? 313 00:14:12,395 --> 00:14:14,880 And that's been around for a year and a half. 314 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,320 WPR: Definitely, I think it makes a lot of difference, just even seeing them 315 00:14:20,344 --> 00:14:23,371 without being part of the thought process behind that. 316 00:14:23,395 --> 00:14:27,925 And we have another question here from G. Ryan Ansin. 317 00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:31,751 He asks, "What would you rank the level of trust 318 00:14:31,775 --> 00:14:33,695 your community had before the pandemic, 319 00:14:33,719 --> 00:14:35,846 in order for the government to have a chance 320 00:14:35,870 --> 00:14:38,337 at properly controlling this crisis?" 321 00:14:39,310 --> 00:14:42,023 AT: I would say that a community trusts each other. 322 00:14:42,047 --> 00:14:44,787 And that is the main point of digital democracy. 323 00:14:44,811 --> 00:14:47,569 This is not about people trusting the government more. 324 00:14:47,593 --> 00:14:50,601 This is about the government trusting the citizens more, 325 00:14:50,625 --> 00:14:53,093 making the state transparent to the citizen, 326 00:14:53,117 --> 00:14:55,101 not the citizen transparent to the state, 327 00:14:55,125 --> 00:14:56,807 which would be some other regime. 328 00:14:56,831 --> 00:14:59,046 So making the state transparent to the citizens 329 00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:01,299 doesn't always elicit more trust, 330 00:15:01,323 --> 00:15:03,982 because you may see something wrong, something missing, 331 00:15:04,006 --> 00:15:06,918 something exclusively hostile to its user experience, 332 00:15:06,942 --> 00:15:08,466 an so on, of the state. 333 00:15:08,490 --> 00:15:11,751 So it doesn't necessarily lead to more trust from the government. 334 00:15:11,775 --> 00:15:13,799 Sorry, from the citizen to the government. 335 00:15:13,823 --> 00:15:17,600 But it always leads to more trust between the social sector stakeholders. 336 00:15:17,624 --> 00:15:20,721 So I would say the level of trust between the people 337 00:15:20,745 --> 00:15:23,277 who are working on, for example, 338 00:15:23,301 --> 00:15:25,627 medical officers, 339 00:15:25,651 --> 00:15:28,983 and people who are working with the pandemic responses, 340 00:15:29,007 --> 00:15:30,879 people who manufacture medical masks, 341 00:15:30,903 --> 00:15:32,069 and so on, 342 00:15:32,093 --> 00:15:33,259 all these people, 343 00:15:33,283 --> 00:15:35,443 the trust level between them is very high. 344 00:15:35,467 --> 00:15:38,197 And not necessarily they trust the government. 345 00:15:38,221 --> 00:15:41,664 But we don't need that for a successful response. 346 00:15:41,688 --> 00:15:43,704 If you ask a random person on the street, 347 00:15:43,728 --> 00:15:47,695 they will say Taiwan is performing so well because of the people. 348 00:15:47,719 --> 00:15:49,894 When the CECC tells us to wear the mask, 349 00:15:49,918 --> 00:15:51,086 we wear the mask. 350 00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:53,163 When the CECC tells us not to wear a mask, 351 00:15:53,187 --> 00:15:55,203 like, if you are keeping physical distance, 352 00:15:55,227 --> 00:15:56,821 we wear a mask anyway. 353 00:15:56,845 --> 00:15:58,227 And so because of that, 354 00:15:58,251 --> 00:16:02,300 I think it's the social sector's trust between those different stakeholders 355 00:16:02,324 --> 00:16:04,245 that's the key to the response. 356 00:16:06,094 --> 00:16:08,579 WPR: I will come back shortly with more questions, 357 00:16:08,603 --> 00:16:11,332 but I'll leave you guys to continue your conversation. 358 00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:12,823 AT: Awesome. 359 00:16:12,847 --> 00:16:16,780 DB: Well, clearly, part of that trust in government 360 00:16:16,804 --> 00:16:22,434 was maybe not there in 2014 during the Sunflower Movement. 361 00:16:22,458 --> 00:16:24,918 So talk to me about that 362 00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:30,028 and how that led to this, kind of, digital transformation. 363 00:16:31,535 --> 00:16:32,703 AT: Indeed. 364 00:16:32,727 --> 00:16:38,976 Before March 2014, if you asked a random person on the street in Taiwan, 365 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,355 like, whether it's possible for a minister -- that's me -- 366 00:16:43,379 --> 00:16:46,909 to have their office in a park, literally a park, 367 00:16:46,933 --> 00:16:50,245 anyone can walk in and talk to me for 40 minutes at a time, 368 00:16:50,269 --> 00:16:53,118 I'm currently in that park, the Social Innovation Lab, 369 00:16:53,142 --> 00:16:55,158 they would say that this is crazy, right? 370 00:16:55,182 --> 00:16:57,418 No public officials work like that. 371 00:16:57,442 --> 00:17:01,141 But that was because on March 18, 2014, 372 00:17:01,165 --> 00:17:03,950 hundreds of young activists, most of them college students, 373 00:17:03,974 --> 00:17:05,466 occupied the legislature 374 00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:09,208 to express their profound opposition to a trade pact with Beijing 375 00:17:09,232 --> 00:17:10,831 under consideration, 376 00:17:10,855 --> 00:17:14,661 and the secretive manner in which it was pushed through the parliament 377 00:17:14,685 --> 00:17:16,876 by Kuomintang, the ruling party at the time. 378 00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:19,003 And so the protesters demanded, very simply, 379 00:17:19,027 --> 00:17:20,569 that the pact be scraped, 380 00:17:20,593 --> 00:17:24,467 and the government to institute a more transparent ratification process. 381 00:17:24,783 --> 00:17:26,895 And that drew widespread public support. 382 00:17:26,919 --> 00:17:29,617 It ended a little more than three weeks later, 383 00:17:29,641 --> 00:17:32,609 after the government promised and agreed 384 00:17:32,633 --> 00:17:37,387 on the four demands [unclear] of legislative oversight. 385 00:17:37,411 --> 00:17:39,561 A poll released after the occupation 386 00:17:39,585 --> 00:17:43,390 showed that more than 75 percent remained dissatisfied 387 00:17:43,414 --> 00:17:44,760 with the ruling government, 388 00:17:44,784 --> 00:17:48,876 illustrating the crisis of trust that was caused by a trade deal dispute. 389 00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:51,309 And to heal this rift and communicate better 390 00:17:51,333 --> 00:17:52,544 with everyday citizens, 391 00:17:52,568 --> 00:17:56,498 the administration reached out to the people who supported the occupiers, 392 00:17:56,522 --> 00:17:59,307 for example, the g0v community, 393 00:17:59,331 --> 00:18:02,006 which has been seeking to improve government transparency 394 00:18:02,030 --> 00:18:04,100 through the creation of open-source tools. 395 00:18:04,124 --> 00:18:07,236 And so, Jaclyn Tsai, a government minister at the time, 396 00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:08,712 attended our hackathon 397 00:18:08,736 --> 00:18:12,085 and proposed the establishment of novel platforms 398 00:18:12,109 --> 00:18:15,299 with the online community to exchange policy ideas. 399 00:18:15,323 --> 00:18:18,336 And an experiment was born called vTaiwan, 400 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,074 that pioneerly used tools such as Polis, 401 00:18:21,098 --> 00:18:24,514 that allows for "agree" or "disagree" with no Reply button, 402 00:18:24,538 --> 00:18:28,926 that gets people's rough consensus on issues such as crowdfunding, 403 00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:31,387 equity-based crowdfunding, to be precise, 404 00:18:31,411 --> 00:18:34,831 teleworking and many other cyber-related legislation, 405 00:18:34,855 --> 00:18:37,831 of which there is no existing unions or associations. 406 00:18:37,855 --> 00:18:39,827 And it proved to be very successful. 407 00:18:39,851 --> 00:18:42,955 They solved the Uber problem, for example, 408 00:18:42,979 --> 00:18:44,836 and by now, you can call an Uber -- 409 00:18:44,860 --> 00:18:47,656 I just called an Uber this week -- 410 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,578 but in any case, they are operating as taxis. 411 00:18:50,602 --> 00:18:53,808 They set up a local taxi company called Q Taxi, 412 00:18:53,832 --> 00:18:57,669 and that was because on the platform, people cared about insurance, 413 00:18:57,693 --> 00:18:59,143 they care about registration, 414 00:18:59,167 --> 00:19:03,281 they care about all the sort of, protection of the passengers, and so on. 415 00:19:03,305 --> 00:19:05,934 So we changed the taxi regulations, 416 00:19:05,958 --> 00:19:08,831 and now Uber is just another taxi company 417 00:19:08,855 --> 00:19:10,855 along with the other co-ops. 418 00:19:11,871 --> 00:19:14,009 DB: So you're actually, in a way, 419 00:19:14,033 --> 00:19:18,813 crowdsourcing laws that, well, then become laws. 420 00:19:19,464 --> 00:19:22,035 AT: Yeah, learn more at crowd.law. 421 00:19:22,059 --> 00:19:23,467 It's a real website. 422 00:19:24,568 --> 00:19:28,683 DB: So, some might say that this seems easier, 423 00:19:28,707 --> 00:19:31,533 because Taiwan is an island, 424 00:19:31,557 --> 00:19:34,744 that maybe helps you control COVID, 425 00:19:34,768 --> 00:19:36,907 helps promote social cohesion, 426 00:19:36,931 --> 00:19:41,042 maybe it's a smaller country than some. 427 00:19:41,066 --> 00:19:44,800 Do you think that this could be scaled beyond Taiwan? 428 00:19:46,182 --> 00:19:47,428 AT: Well, first of all, 429 00:19:47,452 --> 00:19:50,198 23 million people is still quite some people. 430 00:19:50,222 --> 00:19:51,760 It's not a city, 431 00:19:51,784 --> 00:19:56,283 as some usually say, you know, "Taiwan is a city-state." 432 00:19:56,307 --> 00:20:00,003 Well, 23 million people, not quite a city-state. 433 00:20:00,027 --> 00:20:01,622 And what I'm trying to get at, 434 00:20:01,646 --> 00:20:06,685 is that the high population density and a variety of cultures -- 435 00:20:06,709 --> 00:20:09,317 we have more than 20 national languages -- 436 00:20:09,341 --> 00:20:14,206 doesn't necessarily lead to social cohesion, as you said. 437 00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:19,295 Rather, I think, this is the humbleness of all the ministers 438 00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:22,053 in the counter-coronavirus response. 439 00:20:22,077 --> 00:20:27,272 They all took on an attitude of "So we learned about SARS" -- 440 00:20:27,296 --> 00:20:30,485 many of them were in charge of the SARS back then, 441 00:20:30,509 --> 00:20:32,757 but that was classical epidemiology. 442 00:20:32,781 --> 00:20:35,910 This is SARS 2.0, it has different characteristics. 443 00:20:35,934 --> 00:20:38,077 And the tools that we use are very different, 444 00:20:38,101 --> 00:20:39,934 because of the digital transformation. 445 00:20:39,958 --> 00:20:43,320 And so we are in it to learn together with the citizens. 446 00:20:43,344 --> 00:20:46,328 Our vice president at the time, 447 00:20:46,352 --> 00:20:48,455 Dr. Chen Chien-jen, an academician, 448 00:20:48,479 --> 00:20:51,680 literally wrote the textbook on epidemiology. 449 00:20:51,704 --> 00:20:54,047 However, he still says, 450 00:20:54,071 --> 00:20:57,252 "You know, what I'm going to do is record an online MOOC, 451 00:20:57,276 --> 00:20:59,244 a crash course on epidemiology, 452 00:20:59,268 --> 00:21:00,491 that shares with, 453 00:21:00,515 --> 00:21:03,133 I think, more than 20,00 people enrolled the first day, 454 00:21:03,157 --> 00:21:04,329 I was among them, 455 00:21:04,353 --> 00:21:05,831 to learn about important ideas, 456 00:21:05,855 --> 00:21:10,101 like the R0 and the basic transmission 457 00:21:10,125 --> 00:21:12,601 and how the various different measures work, 458 00:21:12,625 --> 00:21:14,801 and then they asked people to innovate. 459 00:21:14,825 --> 00:21:19,409 If you think of a new way that the vice president did not think of, 460 00:21:19,433 --> 00:21:20,719 just call 1922, 461 00:21:20,743 --> 00:21:23,901 and your idea will become the next day's press conference. 462 00:21:23,925 --> 00:21:26,569 And this is this colearning strategy, 463 00:21:26,593 --> 00:21:30,736 I think, that more than anything enabled the social cohesion, 464 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:31,967 as you speak. 465 00:21:31,991 --> 00:21:35,832 But this is more of a robust civil society than the uniformity. 466 00:21:35,856 --> 00:21:38,330 There's no uniformity at all in Taiwan, 467 00:21:38,354 --> 00:21:40,439 everybody is entitled to their ideas, 468 00:21:40,463 --> 00:21:41,968 and all the social innovations, 469 00:21:41,992 --> 00:21:44,468 ranging from using a traditional rice cooker 470 00:21:44,492 --> 00:21:47,383 to revitalize, to disinfect the mask, 471 00:21:47,407 --> 00:21:49,228 to pink medical mask, and so on, 472 00:21:49,252 --> 00:21:51,537 there's all variety of very interesting ideas 473 00:21:51,561 --> 00:21:54,236 that get amplified by the daily press conference. 474 00:21:55,685 --> 00:21:58,167 DB: That's beautiful. 475 00:21:58,748 --> 00:22:00,598 Now -- oh, Whitney is back, 476 00:22:00,622 --> 00:22:02,900 so I will let her ask the next question. 477 00:22:04,293 --> 00:22:06,753 WPR: Sure, we're having some more questions come in. 478 00:22:06,777 --> 00:22:09,642 One from our community member Aria Bendix. 479 00:22:09,666 --> 00:22:14,028 Aria asked, "How do you ensure that digital campaigns act quickly 480 00:22:14,052 --> 00:22:15,829 without sacrificing accuracy? 481 00:22:15,853 --> 00:22:19,609 In the US, there was a fear of inciting panic about COVID-19 482 00:22:19,633 --> 00:22:21,233 in early January." 483 00:22:22,684 --> 00:22:24,779 AT: This is a great question. 484 00:22:24,803 --> 00:22:31,733 So most of the scientific ideas about the COVID are evolving, right? 485 00:22:32,046 --> 00:22:36,574 The efficacy of masks, for example, is a very good example, 486 00:22:36,598 --> 00:22:41,943 because the different characteristics of previous respiratory diseases 487 00:22:41,967 --> 00:22:44,279 respond differently to the facial mask. 488 00:22:44,303 --> 00:22:46,255 And so, our digital campaigns 489 00:22:46,279 --> 00:22:50,461 focus on the idea of getting the rough consensus through. 490 00:22:50,485 --> 00:22:52,734 So basically, it's a reflection of the society, 491 00:22:52,758 --> 00:22:56,585 through Polis, through Slido, through the joint platform, 492 00:22:56,609 --> 00:22:59,068 the various tools that vTaiwan has prototyped, 493 00:22:59,092 --> 00:23:02,591 we know that people are feeling a rough consensus about things 494 00:23:02,615 --> 00:23:05,501 and we're responding to the society, saying, 495 00:23:05,525 --> 00:23:07,458 "This is what you all feel 496 00:23:07,482 --> 00:23:10,276 and this is what we're doing to respond to your feelings. 497 00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:13,045 And the scientific consensus is still developing, 498 00:23:13,069 --> 00:23:14,474 but we know, for example, 499 00:23:14,498 --> 00:23:18,268 people feel that wearing a mask mostly protects you, 500 00:23:18,292 --> 00:23:20,863 because it reminds you to not touch your face 501 00:23:20,887 --> 00:23:22,449 and wash your hands properly." 502 00:23:22,473 --> 00:23:24,768 And these, regardless of everything else, 503 00:23:24,792 --> 00:23:26,950 are the two things that everybody agrees with. 504 00:23:26,974 --> 00:23:29,156 So we just capitalize on that and say, 505 00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:31,085 "OK, wash your hands properly, 506 00:23:31,109 --> 00:23:32,395 and don't touch your face, 507 00:23:32,419 --> 00:23:34,383 and wearing a mask reminds you of that." 508 00:23:34,407 --> 00:23:35,907 And that lets us cut through 509 00:23:35,931 --> 00:23:39,145 the kind of, very ideologically charged debates 510 00:23:39,169 --> 00:23:43,172 and focus on what people generally resonate with one another. 511 00:23:43,196 --> 00:23:46,791 And that's how we act quickly without sacrificing scientific accuracy. 512 00:23:49,012 --> 00:23:52,536 WPR: And this next question sort of feels connected to this as well. 513 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,545 It's a question from an anonymous community member. 514 00:23:55,569 --> 00:23:57,891 "Pragmatically, do you think any of your policies 515 00:23:57,915 --> 00:24:01,764 could be applied in the United States under the current Trump administration?" 516 00:24:01,788 --> 00:24:03,042 AT: Quite a few, actually. 517 00:24:03,066 --> 00:24:07,744 We work with many states in the US and abroad 518 00:24:07,768 --> 00:24:13,347 on what we call "epicenter to epicenter diplomacy." (Laughs) 519 00:24:13,371 --> 00:24:16,276 So what we're doing essentially is, 520 00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:18,479 for example, there was a chat bot in Taiwan 521 00:24:18,503 --> 00:24:21,860 that lets you, but especially people under home quarantine, 522 00:24:21,884 --> 00:24:23,950 to ask the chat bot anything. 523 00:24:23,974 --> 00:24:26,743 And if there is a scientific adviser 524 00:24:26,767 --> 00:24:29,145 who already wrote a frequently asked question, 525 00:24:29,169 --> 00:24:30,938 the chat bot just responds with that, 526 00:24:30,962 --> 00:24:34,352 but otherwise, they will call the science advisory board 527 00:24:34,376 --> 00:24:37,395 and write an accessible response to that, 528 00:24:37,419 --> 00:24:41,426 and the spokesdog would translate that into a cute dog meme. 529 00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:43,244 And so this feedback cycle 530 00:24:43,268 --> 00:24:47,458 of people very easily accessing, finding, and asking a scientist, 531 00:24:47,482 --> 00:24:50,360 and an open API that allows for voice assistance 532 00:24:50,384 --> 00:24:54,328 and other third-party developers to get through it, 533 00:24:54,352 --> 00:24:56,522 resonates with many US states, 534 00:24:56,546 --> 00:24:59,457 and I think many of them are implementing it. 535 00:24:59,481 --> 00:25:03,352 And before the World Health Assembly, I think three days before, 536 00:25:03,376 --> 00:25:07,915 we held a 14 countries [unclear] lateral meeting, 537 00:25:07,939 --> 00:25:09,305 kind of, pre-WHA, 538 00:25:09,329 --> 00:25:12,658 where we shared many small, like, quick wins like this. 539 00:25:12,682 --> 00:25:15,864 And I think many jurisdictions took some of that, 540 00:25:15,888 --> 00:25:17,595 including the humor versus rumor. 541 00:25:17,619 --> 00:25:18,785 Many of them said 542 00:25:18,809 --> 00:25:21,033 that they're going to recruit comedians now. 543 00:25:21,473 --> 00:25:23,168 WPR: (Laughs) I love that. 544 00:25:23,192 --> 00:25:24,568 DB: I hope so. 545 00:25:24,592 --> 00:25:26,385 WPR: I hope so too. 546 00:25:26,409 --> 00:25:29,284 And we have one more question, which is actually a follow-up, 547 00:25:29,308 --> 00:25:31,942 from Michael Backes, who asked a question earlier. 548 00:25:31,966 --> 00:25:35,022 "Does the Ministry plan to publish their plans in a white paper?" 549 00:25:35,046 --> 00:25:37,804 Sounds like you're already sharing your plans with folks, 550 00:25:37,828 --> 00:25:40,183 but do you have a plan to put it out on paper? 551 00:25:40,207 --> 00:25:41,413 AT: Of course. 552 00:25:41,437 --> 00:25:43,039 Yeah, and multiple white papers. 553 00:25:43,063 --> 00:25:47,469 So if you go to taiwancanhelp.us, 554 00:25:47,493 --> 00:25:50,093 that is where most of our strategy is, 555 00:25:50,117 --> 00:25:53,653 and that website is actually crowdsourced as well, 556 00:25:53,677 --> 00:25:56,576 and it shows that more than five million now, I think, 557 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,248 medical masks donated to the humanitarian aid. 558 00:26:00,272 --> 00:26:01,768 It's also crowdsourced. 559 00:26:01,792 --> 00:26:05,003 People who have some masks in their homes, 560 00:26:05,027 --> 00:26:08,026 who did not collect the rationed masks, 561 00:26:08,050 --> 00:26:09,328 they can use an app, say, 562 00:26:09,352 --> 00:26:12,818 "I want to dedicate this to international humanitarian aid," 563 00:26:12,842 --> 00:26:15,984 and half of them choose to publish their names, 564 00:26:16,008 --> 00:26:19,307 so you can also see the names of people who participated in this. 565 00:26:19,331 --> 00:26:22,040 And there's also an "Ask Taiwan Anything" website, 566 00:26:22,064 --> 00:26:23,561 (Laughs) 567 00:26:23,585 --> 00:26:26,796 at fightcovid.edu.tw, 568 00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:30,509 that outlines, in white paper form, all the response strategies, 569 00:26:30,533 --> 00:26:32,033 so check those out. 570 00:26:33,145 --> 00:26:34,307 WPR: Great. 571 00:26:34,331 --> 00:26:37,682 Well, I will disappear and be back later with some other questions. 572 00:26:38,927 --> 00:26:42,156 DB: A blizzard of white papers, if you will. 573 00:26:42,180 --> 00:26:46,725 I'd like to turn the focus on you a little bit. 574 00:26:46,749 --> 00:26:52,333 How does a conservative anarchist become a digital minister? 575 00:26:53,466 --> 00:26:56,950 AT: Yeah, by occupying the parliament, and through that. 576 00:26:56,974 --> 00:26:57,975 (Laughs) 577 00:26:57,999 --> 00:26:59,172 More interestingly, 578 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:03,220 I would say that I go working with the government, 579 00:27:03,244 --> 00:27:05,090 but never for the government. 580 00:27:05,114 --> 00:27:07,780 And I work with the people, not for the people. 581 00:27:07,804 --> 00:27:10,468 I'm like this Lagrange point 582 00:27:10,492 --> 00:27:13,220 between the people's movements on one side 583 00:27:13,244 --> 00:27:15,565 and the government on the other side. 584 00:27:16,395 --> 00:27:18,165 Sometimes right in the middle, 585 00:27:18,189 --> 00:27:20,363 trying to do some coach or translation work. 586 00:27:20,387 --> 00:27:22,958 Sometimes in a kind of triangle point, 587 00:27:22,982 --> 00:27:28,299 trying to supply both sides with tools for prosocial communication. 588 00:27:28,323 --> 00:27:30,901 But always with this idea 589 00:27:30,925 --> 00:27:35,022 of getting the shared values out of different positions, 590 00:27:35,046 --> 00:27:36,577 out of varied positions. 591 00:27:36,601 --> 00:27:37,853 Because all too often, 592 00:27:37,877 --> 00:27:41,323 democracy is built as a showdown between opposing values. 593 00:27:41,347 --> 00:27:44,379 But in the pandemic, in the infodemic, 594 00:27:44,403 --> 00:27:45,815 in climate change, 595 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:47,918 in many of those structural issues, 596 00:27:47,942 --> 00:27:52,201 the virus or carbon dioxide doesn't sit down and negotiate with you. 597 00:27:52,225 --> 00:27:55,907 It's a structural issue that requires common values 598 00:27:55,931 --> 00:27:57,569 built out of different positions. 599 00:27:57,593 --> 00:28:03,025 And so that is why my working principle is radical transparency. 600 00:28:03,049 --> 00:28:05,228 Every conversation, including this one, 601 00:28:05,252 --> 00:28:06,425 is on the record, 602 00:28:06,449 --> 00:28:08,606 including the internal meetings that I hold. 603 00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:11,995 So you can see all the different meeting transcripts 604 00:28:12,019 --> 00:28:14,955 in my YouTube channel, in the SayIt platform, 605 00:28:14,979 --> 00:28:17,548 where people can see, after I became digital minister, 606 00:28:17,572 --> 00:28:21,055 I held 1,300 meetings with more than 5,000 speakers, 607 00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:24,791 with more than 260,000 utterances. 608 00:28:24,815 --> 00:28:27,626 And every one of them has a URL 609 00:28:27,650 --> 00:28:31,018 that becomes a social object that people can have a conversation on. 610 00:28:31,042 --> 00:28:32,264 And because of that, 611 00:28:32,288 --> 00:28:37,831 for example, when Uber's David Plouffe visited me to lobby for Uber, 612 00:28:37,855 --> 00:28:39,401 because of radical transparency, 613 00:28:39,425 --> 00:28:41,625 he is very much aware of that, 614 00:28:41,649 --> 00:28:44,201 and so he made all the arguments based on public good, 615 00:28:44,225 --> 00:28:46,434 based on sustainability, and things like that, 616 00:28:46,458 --> 00:28:50,395 because he knows that the other sides would see his positions 617 00:28:50,419 --> 00:28:52,244 very clearly and transparently. 618 00:28:52,268 --> 00:28:55,395 So that encourages people to add on each other's argument, 619 00:28:55,419 --> 00:28:58,312 instead of attacking each other's person, 620 00:28:58,336 --> 00:29:00,304 you know, credits and things like that. 621 00:29:00,328 --> 00:29:02,249 And so I think that, more than anything, 622 00:29:02,273 --> 00:29:06,568 is the main principle of conserving the anarchism of the internet, 623 00:29:06,592 --> 00:29:07,809 which is about, you know, 624 00:29:07,833 --> 00:29:11,160 nobody can force anyone to hook to the internet, 625 00:29:11,184 --> 00:29:13,541 or to adhere to a new internet protocol. 626 00:29:13,565 --> 00:29:17,116 Everything has to be done using rough consensus and running code. 627 00:29:18,649 --> 00:29:21,990 DB: I wish you had more counterparts all around the world. 628 00:29:22,014 --> 00:29:24,967 Maybe you wish you had more counterparts all around the world. 629 00:29:25,338 --> 00:29:27,700 AT: That's why these ideas are worth spreading. 630 00:29:28,076 --> 00:29:29,250 DB: There you go. 631 00:29:29,274 --> 00:29:35,359 So one of the challenges that might arise with some of these digital tools 632 00:29:35,383 --> 00:29:36,723 is access. 633 00:29:36,747 --> 00:29:39,143 How do you approach that part of it 634 00:29:39,167 --> 00:29:43,409 for folks maybe who don't have the best broadband connection 635 00:29:43,433 --> 00:29:48,590 or the latest mobile phone or whatever it might be that's required? 636 00:29:49,569 --> 00:29:51,264 AT: Well, anywhere in Taiwan, 637 00:29:51,288 --> 00:29:54,778 even on the top of Taiwan, almost 4,000 meters high, 638 00:29:54,802 --> 00:29:56,852 the Saviah, or the Jade Mountain, 639 00:29:56,876 --> 00:30:00,043 you're guaranteed to have 10 megabits per second 640 00:30:00,067 --> 00:30:02,291 over 4G or fiber or cable, 641 00:30:02,315 --> 00:30:06,899 with just 16 US dollars a month, an unlimited plan. 642 00:30:06,923 --> 00:30:10,201 And actually, on the top of the mountain, it's faster, 643 00:30:10,225 --> 00:30:12,209 fewer people use that bandwidth. 644 00:30:12,233 --> 00:30:14,029 And if you don't, it's my fault. 645 00:30:14,053 --> 00:30:15,283 It's personally my fault. 646 00:30:15,307 --> 00:30:17,958 In Taiwan, we have broadband as a human right. 647 00:30:17,982 --> 00:30:19,934 And so when we're deploying 5G, 648 00:30:19,958 --> 00:30:23,125 we're looking at places where the 4G has the weakest signal, 649 00:30:23,149 --> 00:30:27,014 and we begin with those places in our 5G deployment. 650 00:30:27,038 --> 00:30:30,101 And only by deploying broadband as a human right 651 00:30:30,125 --> 00:30:33,068 can we say that this is for everybody. 652 00:30:33,092 --> 00:30:36,433 That digital democracy actually strengthens democracy. 653 00:30:36,457 --> 00:30:39,583 Otherwise, we would be excluding parts of the society. 654 00:30:39,607 --> 00:30:41,459 And this also applies to, for example, 655 00:30:41,483 --> 00:30:43,839 you can go to a local digital opportunity center 656 00:30:43,863 --> 00:30:45,643 to rent a tablet that's guaranteed 657 00:30:45,667 --> 00:30:47,968 to be manufactured in the past three years, 658 00:30:47,992 --> 00:30:49,189 and things like that, 659 00:30:49,213 --> 00:30:51,822 to enable, also, the different digital access 660 00:30:51,846 --> 00:30:56,101 by the digital opportunity centers, universities and schools, 661 00:30:56,125 --> 00:30:58,378 and public libraries, very important. 662 00:30:58,402 --> 00:31:01,625 And if people who prefer to talk in their town hall, 663 00:31:01,649 --> 00:31:06,185 I personally go to that town hall with a 360 recorder, 664 00:31:06,209 --> 00:31:09,471 and livestream that to Taipei and to other municipalities, 665 00:31:09,495 --> 00:31:12,101 where the central government's public servants can join 666 00:31:12,125 --> 00:31:13,825 in a connected room style, 667 00:31:13,849 --> 00:31:16,509 but listening to the local people who set the agenda. 668 00:31:16,533 --> 00:31:19,145 So people still do face-to-face meetings, 669 00:31:19,169 --> 00:31:21,733 we're not doing this to replace face-to-face meetings. 670 00:31:21,757 --> 00:31:23,522 We're bringing more stakeholders 671 00:31:23,546 --> 00:31:26,133 from central government in the local town halls, 672 00:31:26,157 --> 00:31:28,078 and we're amplifying their voices 673 00:31:28,102 --> 00:31:31,285 by making sure the transcripts, the mind maps, and things like that 674 00:31:31,309 --> 00:31:33,966 are spread through the internet in real time, 675 00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:36,776 but we don't ever ask the elderly to, say, 676 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,918 "Oh, you have to learn typing, otherwise you don't do democracy." 677 00:31:39,942 --> 00:31:41,109 It's not our style. 678 00:31:41,133 --> 00:31:42,473 But that requires broadband. 679 00:31:42,497 --> 00:31:45,960 Because if you don't have broadband, but only a very limited bandwidth, 680 00:31:45,984 --> 00:31:48,196 you are forced to use text-based communication. 681 00:31:48,521 --> 00:31:49,752 DB: That's right. 682 00:31:49,776 --> 00:31:51,217 Well, with access, of course, 683 00:31:51,241 --> 00:31:55,568 comes access for folks who maybe will misuse the platform. 684 00:31:55,592 --> 00:31:58,106 You talked a little bit about disinformation 685 00:31:58,130 --> 00:31:59,868 and using humor to beat rumor. 686 00:31:59,892 --> 00:32:04,516 But sometimes, disinformation is more weaponized. 687 00:32:04,919 --> 00:32:09,461 How do you combat those kinds of attacks, really? 688 00:32:10,101 --> 00:32:12,783 AT: Right, so you mean malinformation, then. 689 00:32:12,807 --> 00:32:18,868 So essentially, information designed to cause intentional public harm. 690 00:32:18,892 --> 00:32:22,177 And that's no laughing matter. 691 00:32:22,201 --> 00:32:26,712 So for that, we have an idea called "notice and public notice." 692 00:32:26,736 --> 00:32:29,117 So this is a Reuters photo, 693 00:32:29,141 --> 00:32:31,355 and I will read the original caption. 694 00:32:31,379 --> 00:32:32,633 The original caption says 695 00:32:32,657 --> 00:32:35,972 "A teenage extradition bill protester in Hong Kong 696 00:32:35,996 --> 00:32:40,163 is seen during a march to demand democracy and political reform in Hong Kong." 697 00:32:40,187 --> 00:32:42,844 OK, a very neutral title by the Reuters. 698 00:32:42,868 --> 00:32:46,971 But there was a spreading of a malinformation 699 00:32:46,995 --> 00:32:48,849 back last November, 700 00:32:48,873 --> 00:32:50,904 just leading to our presidential election, 701 00:32:50,928 --> 00:32:53,014 that shows something else entirely. 702 00:32:53,038 --> 00:32:55,576 This is the same photo -- that says 703 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,583 "This 13-year-old thug bought new iPhones, 704 00:32:58,607 --> 00:33:00,654 game consoles and brand-name sports shoes, 705 00:33:00,678 --> 00:33:03,393 and recruiting his brothers to murder police 706 00:33:03,417 --> 00:33:06,620 and collect 200,000 dollars." 707 00:33:06,644 --> 00:33:10,461 And this, of course, is a weapon designed to sow discord, 708 00:33:10,485 --> 00:33:15,895 and to elicit in Taiwan's voters a kind of distaste for Hong Kong. 709 00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:19,042 And because they know that this is the main issue. 710 00:33:19,066 --> 00:33:21,685 And had we resorted to takedowns, 711 00:33:21,709 --> 00:33:22,915 that will not work, 712 00:33:22,939 --> 00:33:25,090 because that would only evoke more outrage. 713 00:33:25,114 --> 00:33:26,545 So we didn't do a takedown. 714 00:33:26,569 --> 00:33:28,610 Instead, we worked with the fact checkers 715 00:33:28,634 --> 00:33:30,022 and professional journalists 716 00:33:30,046 --> 00:33:35,225 to attribute this original message back to the first day that it was posted. 717 00:33:35,249 --> 00:33:37,680 And it came from Zhongyang Zhengfawei. 718 00:33:37,704 --> 00:33:44,450 That is the main political and legal unit of the central party, 719 00:33:44,474 --> 00:33:46,656 in the Central Communist Party, in CCP. 720 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,053 And we know that it's their Weibo account that first did this new caption. 721 00:33:52,077 --> 00:33:54,252 So we sent out a public notice 722 00:33:54,276 --> 00:33:56,633 and with the partners in social media companies, 723 00:33:56,657 --> 00:33:58,181 pretty much all of them, 724 00:33:58,205 --> 00:34:00,939 they just put this very small reminder 725 00:34:00,963 --> 00:34:04,501 next to each time that this is shared with the wrong caption, 726 00:34:04,525 --> 00:34:08,461 that says "This actually came from the central propaganda unit 727 00:34:08,485 --> 00:34:09,674 of the CCP. 728 00:34:09,698 --> 00:34:12,594 Click here to learn more. To learn about the whole story." 729 00:34:12,618 --> 00:34:14,968 And that, we found, that has worked, 730 00:34:14,992 --> 00:34:18,536 because people understand this is then not a news material. 731 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,115 This is rather an appropriation of Reuters' news material 732 00:34:22,139 --> 00:34:23,791 and a copyright infringement 733 00:34:23,815 --> 00:34:26,061 and I think that's part of the [unclear]. 734 00:34:26,085 --> 00:34:28,743 In any case, the point is that when people understand 735 00:34:28,767 --> 00:34:30,598 that this is an intentional narrative, 736 00:34:30,622 --> 00:34:32,550 they won't just randomly share it. 737 00:34:32,574 --> 00:34:35,137 They may share it, but with a comment that says 738 00:34:35,161 --> 00:34:40,539 "This is what the Zhongyang Zhengfawei is trying to do to our democracy." 739 00:34:42,182 --> 00:34:46,474 DB: Seems like some of the global social media companies 740 00:34:46,498 --> 00:34:50,534 could learn something from notice and public notice. 741 00:34:50,558 --> 00:34:52,156 AT: Public notice, that's right. 742 00:34:52,180 --> 00:34:55,039 DB: What advice would you have 743 00:34:55,063 --> 00:35:00,376 for the Twitters and Facebooks and LINEs and WhatsApps, 744 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,734 and you name it, of the world? 745 00:35:04,203 --> 00:35:05,386 AT: Yeah. 746 00:35:05,410 --> 00:35:08,656 So, just before our election, 747 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,475 we said to all of them 748 00:35:10,499 --> 00:35:15,685 that we're not making a law to kind of punish them. 749 00:35:15,709 --> 00:35:18,764 However, we're sharing this very simple fact 750 00:35:18,788 --> 00:35:20,963 that there is this norm in Taiwan 751 00:35:20,987 --> 00:35:23,545 that we even have a separate branch of the government, 752 00:35:23,569 --> 00:35:24,768 the control branch, 753 00:35:24,792 --> 00:35:28,360 that published the campaign donation and expense. 754 00:35:28,384 --> 00:35:30,534 And it just so occurred to us 755 00:35:30,558 --> 00:35:33,931 that in the previous election, the mayoral one, 756 00:35:33,955 --> 00:35:35,352 there was a lot of candidates 757 00:35:35,376 --> 00:35:38,053 that did not include any social media advertisements 758 00:35:38,077 --> 00:35:40,099 in their expense to the Control Yuan. 759 00:35:40,123 --> 00:35:44,203 And so essentially, that means that there is a separate amount 760 00:35:44,227 --> 00:35:48,847 of political donation and expense that evades public scrutiny. 761 00:35:48,871 --> 00:35:51,066 And our Control Yuan published their numbers 762 00:35:51,090 --> 00:35:52,321 in raw data form, 763 00:35:52,345 --> 00:35:53,963 [unclear] they're not statistics, 764 00:35:53,987 --> 00:35:57,582 but individual records of who donated for what cause, 765 00:35:57,606 --> 00:35:58,757 when, where, 766 00:35:58,781 --> 00:36:01,243 and investigative journalists are very happy, 767 00:36:01,267 --> 00:36:03,839 because they can then make investigative reports 768 00:36:03,863 --> 00:36:06,131 about the connections between the candidates 769 00:36:06,155 --> 00:36:07,593 and the people who fund them. 770 00:36:07,617 --> 00:36:09,934 But they cannot work with the same material 771 00:36:09,958 --> 00:36:11,959 from the global social media companies. 772 00:36:11,983 --> 00:36:14,359 So I said, "Look, this is very simple. 773 00:36:14,383 --> 00:36:15,773 This is the social norm here, 774 00:36:15,797 --> 00:36:17,978 I don't really care about other jurisdictions. 775 00:36:18,002 --> 00:36:21,816 You either adhere to the social norm that is set by the Control Yuan 776 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,506 and the investigative journalists, 777 00:36:23,530 --> 00:36:25,895 or maybe you will face social sanctions. 778 00:36:25,919 --> 00:36:28,156 And this is not the government mandate, 779 00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:32,061 but it's the people fed up with, you know, black box, 780 00:36:32,085 --> 00:36:35,910 and that's part of the Sunflower Occupy's demands, also. 781 00:36:35,934 --> 00:36:39,871 And so Facebook actually published in the Ad Library, 782 00:36:39,895 --> 00:36:45,014 I think at that time, one of the fastest response strategies, 783 00:36:45,038 --> 00:36:51,058 where everybody who has basically any dark pattern advertisement 784 00:36:51,082 --> 00:36:52,931 will get revealed very quickly, 785 00:36:52,955 --> 00:36:56,399 and investigative journalists work with the local civic technologists 786 00:36:56,423 --> 00:37:01,227 to make sure that if anybody dare to use social media in such a divisive way, 787 00:37:01,251 --> 00:37:05,307 within an hour, there will be a report out condemning that. 788 00:37:05,331 --> 00:37:09,474 So nobody tried that during the previous presidential election season. 789 00:37:09,498 --> 00:37:11,458 DB: So change is possible. 790 00:37:12,196 --> 00:37:13,346 AT: Mhm. 791 00:37:15,942 --> 00:37:18,911 WPR: Hey there, we have some more questions from the community. 792 00:37:18,935 --> 00:37:21,188 There is an anonymous one 793 00:37:21,212 --> 00:37:25,704 that says, "I believe Taiwan is outside WHO entirely 794 00:37:25,728 --> 00:37:28,786 and has a 130-part preparation program -- 795 00:37:28,810 --> 00:37:30,572 developed entirely on its own -- 796 00:37:30,596 --> 00:37:33,005 to what extent does it credit its preparation 797 00:37:33,029 --> 00:37:34,896 to building its own system?" 798 00:37:36,168 --> 00:37:39,871 AT: Well, a little bit, I guess. 799 00:37:39,895 --> 00:37:42,905 We tried to warn the WHO, 800 00:37:42,929 --> 00:37:44,127 but at that point -- 801 00:37:44,151 --> 00:37:47,950 we are not totally outside, we have limited scientific access. 802 00:37:47,974 --> 00:37:50,529 But we do not have any ministerial access. 803 00:37:50,553 --> 00:37:52,180 And this is very different, right? 804 00:37:52,204 --> 00:37:54,768 If you only have limited scientific access, 805 00:37:54,792 --> 00:38:00,680 unless the other side's top epidemiologist happens to be the vice president, 806 00:38:00,704 --> 00:38:02,720 like in Taiwan's case, 807 00:38:02,744 --> 00:38:06,514 they don't always do the storytelling well enough 808 00:38:06,538 --> 00:38:10,570 to translate that into political action as our vice president did, right? 809 00:38:10,594 --> 00:38:13,124 So the lack of ministerial access, I think, 810 00:38:13,148 --> 00:38:16,020 is to the detriment of the global community, 811 00:38:16,044 --> 00:38:19,331 because otherwise, people could have responded as we did 812 00:38:19,355 --> 00:38:20,791 in the first day of January, 813 00:38:20,815 --> 00:38:24,012 instead of having to wait for weeks 814 00:38:24,036 --> 00:38:27,702 before the WHO declared that this is something, 815 00:38:27,726 --> 00:38:30,156 that there's definitely human to human transmission, 816 00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:32,845 that you should inspect people coming in from Wuhan, 817 00:38:32,869 --> 00:38:34,383 which they eventually did, 818 00:38:34,407 --> 00:38:37,624 but that's already two weeks or three weeks after what we did. 819 00:38:40,247 --> 00:38:41,577 WPR: Makes a lot of sense. 820 00:38:41,601 --> 00:38:45,014 DB: More scientists and technologists in politics. 821 00:38:45,038 --> 00:38:46,888 That sounds like that's the answer. 822 00:38:47,228 --> 00:38:48,378 AT: Yeah. 823 00:38:50,633 --> 00:38:54,212 WPR: And then we have another question here from Kamal Srinivasan 824 00:38:54,236 --> 00:38:55,768 about your reopening strategy. 825 00:38:55,792 --> 00:39:00,368 "How are you enabling restaurants and retailers to open safely in Taiwan?" 826 00:39:00,974 --> 00:39:03,363 AT: Oh, they never closed, so ... (Laughs) 827 00:39:03,387 --> 00:39:04,862 WPR: Oh! 828 00:39:04,886 --> 00:39:06,236 AT: Yeah, they never closed, 829 00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:09,389 there was no lockdown, there was no closure. 830 00:39:09,413 --> 00:39:12,889 We just said a very simple thing in the CECC press conference, 831 00:39:12,913 --> 00:39:15,135 that there's going to be physical distancing. 832 00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:17,215 You maintain one and a half meters indoors 833 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:18,389 or wear a mask. 834 00:39:18,413 --> 00:39:19,594 And that's it. 835 00:39:19,618 --> 00:39:24,275 And so there are some restaurants that put up, I guess, red curtains, 836 00:39:24,299 --> 00:39:28,627 some put very cute teddy bears and so on, on the chairs, 837 00:39:28,651 --> 00:39:30,982 to make sure that people spread evenly, 838 00:39:31,006 --> 00:39:37,240 some installed see-through glass or plastic walls 839 00:39:37,264 --> 00:39:38,662 between the seats. 840 00:39:38,686 --> 00:39:41,899 There's various social innovations happening around. 841 00:39:41,923 --> 00:39:46,515 And I think the only shops that got closed for a while, 842 00:39:46,539 --> 00:39:51,484 because they could not innovate quick enough to respond to these rules, 843 00:39:51,508 --> 00:39:54,277 was the intimate escort bars. 844 00:39:54,301 --> 00:39:57,757 But eventually, even they invented new ways, 845 00:39:57,781 --> 00:40:02,384 by handing out these caps that are plastic shielding, 846 00:40:02,408 --> 00:40:05,749 but still leaves room for drinking behind it. 847 00:40:05,773 --> 00:40:08,461 And so they opened with that social innovation. 848 00:40:10,479 --> 00:40:12,162 DB: That's amazing. 849 00:40:12,186 --> 00:40:16,692 WPR: It is, yeah, it's a lot to learn from your strategies there. 850 00:40:16,716 --> 00:40:20,791 Thank you, I'll be back towards the end with some final questions. 851 00:40:22,002 --> 00:40:25,867 DB: I'm very happy to hear that the restaurants were not closed down, 852 00:40:25,891 --> 00:40:30,275 because I think Taipei has some of the best food in the world 853 00:40:30,299 --> 00:40:33,329 of any city that I've visited, 854 00:40:33,353 --> 00:40:36,517 so, you know, kudos to you for that. 855 00:40:38,252 --> 00:40:44,791 So the big concern when it comes to using digital tools for COVID 856 00:40:44,815 --> 00:40:47,153 or using digital tools for democracy 857 00:40:47,177 --> 00:40:49,651 is always privacy. 858 00:40:49,675 --> 00:40:52,985 You've talked about that a little bit, 859 00:40:53,009 --> 00:40:56,543 but I'm sure the citizens of Taiwan 860 00:40:56,567 --> 00:40:59,295 are perhaps equally concerned about their privacy, 861 00:40:59,319 --> 00:41:02,483 especially given the geopolitical context. 862 00:41:02,507 --> 00:41:03,663 AT: Definitely. 863 00:41:03,687 --> 00:41:05,749 DB: So how do you cope with those demands? 864 00:41:07,010 --> 00:41:13,060 AT: Yeah, we design with not only defensive strategy, 865 00:41:13,084 --> 00:41:15,498 like minimization of data collection, 866 00:41:15,522 --> 00:41:17,977 but also proactive measures, 867 00:41:18,001 --> 00:41:20,522 such as privacy-enhancing technologies. 868 00:41:20,546 --> 00:41:23,740 One of the top teams that emerged out of our cohack, 869 00:41:23,764 --> 00:41:27,352 the TW response from the Polis, 870 00:41:27,376 --> 00:41:30,264 how to make contact tracing easier, 871 00:41:30,288 --> 00:41:32,328 focused not on the contact tracers, 872 00:41:32,352 --> 00:41:35,213 not on the medical officers, but on the person. 873 00:41:35,237 --> 00:41:37,530 So they basically said, "OK, you have a phone, 874 00:41:37,554 --> 00:41:39,620 you can record your temperatures, 875 00:41:39,644 --> 00:41:42,847 you can record your whereabouts and things like that, 876 00:41:42,871 --> 00:41:44,974 but that is strictly in your phone. 877 00:41:44,998 --> 00:41:46,529 It doesn't even use Bluetooth. 878 00:41:46,553 --> 00:41:47,887 So there's no transmission. 879 00:41:48,229 --> 00:41:49,776 Technology uses open-source, 880 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,331 you can check it, you can use it in airplane mode. 881 00:41:52,355 --> 00:41:54,903 And when the contact tracer eventually tells you 882 00:41:54,927 --> 00:41:56,974 that you are part of a high-risk group, 883 00:41:56,998 --> 00:41:59,323 and they really want your contact history, 884 00:41:59,347 --> 00:42:02,553 this tool can then generate a single-use URL 885 00:42:02,577 --> 00:42:06,358 that only contains the precise information, 886 00:42:06,382 --> 00:42:07,564 anonymized, 887 00:42:07,588 --> 00:42:09,228 that the contact tracers want. 888 00:42:09,252 --> 00:42:12,522 But it will not, like in a traditional interview, 889 00:42:12,546 --> 00:42:14,313 let you ask -- 890 00:42:14,337 --> 00:42:17,799 they ask a question, they only want to know your whereabouts, 891 00:42:17,823 --> 00:42:19,665 but you answer with such accuracy 892 00:42:19,689 --> 00:42:22,609 that you end up compromising other people's privacy. 893 00:42:22,633 --> 00:42:25,225 So basically, this is about designing 894 00:42:25,249 --> 00:42:28,600 with an aim to enhance other people's privacy, 895 00:42:28,624 --> 00:42:31,617 because personal data is never truly personal. 896 00:42:31,641 --> 00:42:34,403 It's always social, it's always intersectional. 897 00:42:34,427 --> 00:42:36,907 If I take a selfie at a party, 898 00:42:36,931 --> 00:42:40,616 I inadvertently also take pretty much everybody else's 899 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,283 who are in the picture, the surroundings, the ambiance, and so on, 900 00:42:44,307 --> 00:42:47,634 and if I upload it to a cloud service, 901 00:42:47,658 --> 00:42:50,691 then I actually decimate the bargaining power, 902 00:42:50,715 --> 00:42:53,304 the negotiation power of everybody around me, 903 00:42:53,328 --> 00:42:56,174 because then their data is part of the cloud, 904 00:42:56,198 --> 00:42:58,315 and the cloud doesn't have to compensate them 905 00:42:58,339 --> 00:42:59,928 or get their agreement for it. 906 00:42:59,952 --> 00:43:02,204 And so only by designing the tools 907 00:43:02,228 --> 00:43:05,617 with privacy enhancing as a positive value, 908 00:43:05,641 --> 00:43:08,323 and not enhancing only the person's own privacy, 909 00:43:08,347 --> 00:43:10,392 just like a medical mask, it protects you, 910 00:43:10,416 --> 00:43:12,498 but mostly it also protects others, right? 911 00:43:12,522 --> 00:43:15,823 So if we design tools using that idea, 912 00:43:15,847 --> 00:43:19,291 and always open-source and with an open API, 913 00:43:19,315 --> 00:43:21,029 then we're in a much better shape 914 00:43:21,053 --> 00:43:25,339 than in centralized or so-called cloud-based services. 915 00:43:27,656 --> 00:43:30,370 DB: Well, you're clearly living in the future, 916 00:43:30,394 --> 00:43:33,371 and I guess that's quite literal, 917 00:43:33,395 --> 00:43:35,521 in the sense of, it's tomorrow morning there. 918 00:43:35,545 --> 00:43:36,704 AT: Twelve hours. 919 00:43:36,728 --> 00:43:37,878 DB: Yes. 920 00:43:38,657 --> 00:43:41,585 Tell me, what do you see in the future? 921 00:43:41,609 --> 00:43:43,353 What comes next? 922 00:43:44,926 --> 00:43:49,001 AT: Yes, so I see the coronavirus as a great amplifier. 923 00:43:49,025 --> 00:43:53,390 If you start with an authoritarian society, 924 00:43:53,414 --> 00:43:55,974 the coronavirus, with all its lockdowns and so on, 925 00:43:55,998 --> 00:44:00,807 has the potential of making it even a more totalitarian society. 926 00:44:00,831 --> 00:44:03,022 If people place their trust, however, 927 00:44:03,046 --> 00:44:04,236 on the social sector, 928 00:44:04,260 --> 00:44:07,212 on the ingenuity of social innovators, 929 00:44:07,236 --> 00:44:09,164 then the pandemic, as in Taiwan, 930 00:44:09,188 --> 00:44:11,400 actually strengthens our democracy, 931 00:44:11,424 --> 00:44:14,728 so that people feel, truly, that everybody can think of something 932 00:44:14,752 --> 00:44:18,294 that improves the welfare of not just Taiwan, 933 00:44:18,318 --> 00:44:21,322 but pretty much everybody else in the world. 934 00:44:21,346 --> 00:44:22,791 And so, my point here 935 00:44:22,815 --> 00:44:27,577 is that the great amplifier comes if no matter you want it or not, 936 00:44:27,601 --> 00:44:32,210 but the society, what they can do, is do what Taiwan did after SARS. 937 00:44:32,234 --> 00:44:34,702 In 2003, when SARS came, 938 00:44:34,726 --> 00:44:36,917 we had to shut down an entire hospital, 939 00:44:36,941 --> 00:44:40,845 barricading it with no definite termination date. 940 00:44:40,869 --> 00:44:42,323 It was very traumatic, 941 00:44:42,347 --> 00:44:45,879 everybody above the age of 30 remembers how traumatic it was. 942 00:44:45,903 --> 00:44:47,102 The municipalities 943 00:44:47,126 --> 00:44:50,020 and the central government were saying very different things, 944 00:44:50,044 --> 00:44:51,871 and that is why after SARS, 945 00:44:51,895 --> 00:44:54,998 the constitutional courts charged the legislature 946 00:44:55,022 --> 00:44:57,450 to set up the system as you see today, 947 00:44:57,474 --> 00:44:58,831 and also that is why, 948 00:44:58,855 --> 00:45:02,117 when people responding to that crisis back in 2003 949 00:45:02,141 --> 00:45:06,347 built this very robust response system that there's early drills. 950 00:45:06,371 --> 00:45:08,569 So just as the Sunflower Occupy, 951 00:45:08,593 --> 00:45:13,418 because of the crisis in trust let us build new tools 952 00:45:13,442 --> 00:45:15,276 that put trust first, 953 00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:19,998 I think the coronavirus is the chance for everybody who have survived 954 00:45:20,022 --> 00:45:21,183 through the first wave 955 00:45:21,207 --> 00:45:26,529 to settle on a new set of norms that will reinforce your founding values, 956 00:45:26,553 --> 00:45:30,596 instead of taking on alien values in the name of survival. 957 00:45:32,704 --> 00:45:34,812 DB: Yeah, let's hope so, 958 00:45:34,836 --> 00:45:40,348 and let's hope the rest of the world is as prepared as Taiwan 959 00:45:40,372 --> 00:45:42,609 the next time around. 960 00:45:42,633 --> 00:45:46,109 When it comes to digital democracy, though, 961 00:45:46,133 --> 00:45:47,617 and digital citizenship, 962 00:45:47,641 --> 00:45:49,649 where do you see that going, 963 00:45:49,673 --> 00:45:52,289 both in Taiwan and maybe in the rest of the world? 964 00:45:53,108 --> 00:45:56,139 AT: Well, I have my job description here, 965 00:45:56,163 --> 00:45:57,474 which I will read to you. 966 00:45:57,498 --> 00:46:00,875 It's literally my job description and the answer to that question. 967 00:46:00,899 --> 00:46:02,049 And so, here goes. 968 00:46:02,474 --> 00:46:04,982 When we see the internet of things, 969 00:46:05,006 --> 00:46:07,206 let's make it the internet of beings. 970 00:46:07,657 --> 00:46:09,847 When we see virtual reality, 971 00:46:09,871 --> 00:46:12,093 let's make it a shared reality. 972 00:46:12,728 --> 00:46:14,831 When we see machine learning, 973 00:46:14,855 --> 00:46:17,322 let's make it collaborative learning. 974 00:46:17,758 --> 00:46:20,432 When we see user experience, 975 00:46:20,456 --> 00:46:23,019 let's make it about human experience. 976 00:46:23,361 --> 00:46:26,369 And whenever we hear the singularity is near, 977 00:46:26,393 --> 00:46:28,133 let us always remember 978 00:46:28,157 --> 00:46:30,228 the plurality is here. 979 00:46:30,942 --> 00:46:32,542 Thank you for listening. 980 00:46:33,379 --> 00:46:34,680 DB: Wow. 981 00:46:34,704 --> 00:46:36,729 I have to give that a little clap, 982 00:46:36,753 --> 00:46:38,020 that was beautiful. 983 00:46:38,625 --> 00:46:39,775 (Laughs) 984 00:46:40,243 --> 00:46:41,625 Quite a job description too. 985 00:46:41,649 --> 00:46:43,692 So, conservative anarchist, 986 00:46:43,716 --> 00:46:47,032 digital minister, and with that job description -- 987 00:46:47,056 --> 00:46:48,289 that's pretty impressive. 988 00:46:48,313 --> 00:46:49,913 AT: A poetician, yes. 989 00:46:50,279 --> 00:46:52,223 DB (Laughs) 990 00:46:52,858 --> 00:46:57,527 So I struggle to imagine 991 00:46:57,551 --> 00:47:01,011 an adoption of these techniques in the US, 992 00:47:01,035 --> 00:47:04,874 and that may be my pessimism weighing in. 993 00:47:04,898 --> 00:47:09,815 But what words of hope do you have for the US, as we cope with COVID? 994 00:47:11,701 --> 00:47:15,462 AT: Well, as I mentioned, during SARS in Taiwan, 995 00:47:15,486 --> 00:47:20,099 nobody imagined we could have CECC and a cute spokesdog. 996 00:47:20,123 --> 00:47:22,896 Before the Sunflower movement, during a large protest, 997 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,260 there was, I think, half a million people on the street, and many more. 998 00:47:27,284 --> 00:47:31,406 Nobody thought that we could have a collective intelligence system 999 00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:34,200 that puts open government data 1000 00:47:34,224 --> 00:47:36,994 as a way to rebuild citizen participation. 1001 00:47:37,018 --> 00:47:38,993 And so, never lose hope. 1002 00:47:39,017 --> 00:47:44,631 As my favorite singer, Leonard Cohen -- a poet, also -- is fond of saying, 1003 00:47:44,655 --> 00:47:46,345 "Ring the bells that still can ring 1004 00:47:46,369 --> 00:47:49,004 and forget any perfect offering. 1005 00:47:49,028 --> 00:47:53,353 There is a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in." 1006 00:47:55,149 --> 00:47:56,299 WPR: Wow. 1007 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:58,527 WPR: That's so beautiful, 1008 00:47:58,551 --> 00:48:02,447 and it feels like such a great message to, sort of, leave the audience with, 1009 00:48:02,471 --> 00:48:03,767 and sharing the sentiment 1010 00:48:03,791 --> 00:48:07,475 that everyone seems to be so grateful for what you've shared, Audrey, 1011 00:48:07,499 --> 00:48:13,355 and all the great information and insight into Taiwan's strategies. 1012 00:48:14,502 --> 00:48:15,653 AT: Thank you. 1013 00:48:15,677 --> 00:48:16,827 WPR: And David -- 1014 00:48:17,661 --> 00:48:20,312 DB: I was just going to say, thank you so much for that, 1015 00:48:20,336 --> 00:48:22,462 thank you for that beautiful job description, 1016 00:48:22,486 --> 00:48:26,746 and for all the wisdom you shared in rapid-fire fashion. 1017 00:48:26,770 --> 00:48:29,922 I think it wasn't just one idea that you shared, 1018 00:48:29,946 --> 00:48:32,926 but maybe, I don't know, 20, 30, 40? 1019 00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:34,750 I lost count at some point. 1020 00:48:35,855 --> 00:48:37,958 AT: Well, it's called Ideas Worth Spreading, 1021 00:48:37,982 --> 00:48:39,259 it's a plural form. 1022 00:48:39,283 --> 00:48:41,000 (Laughter) 1023 00:48:41,363 --> 00:48:42,514 DB: Very true. 1024 00:48:42,538 --> 00:48:45,230 Well, thank you so much for joining us. 1025 00:48:45,254 --> 00:48:46,405 WPR: Thank you, Audrey. 1026 00:48:46,429 --> 00:48:48,355 DB: And I wish you luck with everything. 1027 00:48:48,857 --> 00:48:51,225 AT: Thank you, and have a good local time. 1028 00:48:51,249 --> 00:48:52,399 Stay safe.