WEBVTT 00:00:00.556 --> 00:00:02.572 Audrey Tang: Very happy to be joining you, 00:00:02.596 --> 00:00:04.362 and good local time, everyone. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:06.135 --> 00:00:08.402 David Biello: So, tell us about -- 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:10.110 Sorry to -- 00:00:10.420 --> 00:00:12.890 Tell us about digital tools and COVID. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:14.196 --> 00:00:15.347 AT: Sure. 00:00:15.371 --> 00:00:17.738 Yeah, I'm really happy to share with you 00:00:17.762 --> 00:00:20.542 how Taiwan successfully countered the COVID 00:00:20.566 --> 00:00:23.402 using the power of digital democracy tools. 00:00:24.101 --> 00:00:27.728 As we know, democracy improves as more people participate. 00:00:27.752 --> 00:00:32.245 And digital technology remains one of the best ways to improve participation, 00:00:32.269 --> 00:00:34.658 as long as the focus is on finding common ground, 00:00:34.682 --> 00:00:38.785 that is to say, prosocial media instead of antisocial media. 00:00:38.809 --> 00:00:42.490 And there's three key ideas that I would like to share today 00:00:42.514 --> 00:00:46.863 about digital democracy that is fast, fair and fun. 00:00:48.277 --> 00:00:50.283 First about the fast part. 00:00:50.307 --> 00:00:54.021 Whereas many jurisdictions began countering coronavirus only this year, 00:00:54.045 --> 00:00:55.871 Taiwan started last year. 00:00:55.895 --> 00:00:59.569 Last December, when Dr. Li Wenliang, the PRC whistleblower, 00:00:59.593 --> 00:01:02.307 posted that there are new SARS cases, 00:01:02.331 --> 00:01:04.609 he got inquiries and eventually punishments 00:01:04.633 --> 00:01:06.648 from PRC police institutions. 00:01:06.958 --> 00:01:08.108 But at the same time, 00:01:08.132 --> 00:01:11.069 the Taiwan equivalent of Reddit, the Ptt board, 00:01:11.093 --> 00:01:12.926 has someone called Nomorepipe 00:01:12.950 --> 00:01:15.744 reposting Dr. Li Wenliang's whistleblowing. 00:01:15.768 --> 00:01:18.733 And our medical officers immediately noticed this post, 00:01:18.757 --> 00:01:20.312 and issued an order that says 00:01:20.336 --> 00:01:23.018 all passengers flying in from Wuhan to Taiwan 00:01:23.042 --> 00:01:25.487 need to start health inspections the very next day, 00:01:25.511 --> 00:01:27.574 which is the first day of January. 00:01:27.598 --> 00:01:29.450 And this says to me two things. 00:01:29.474 --> 00:01:31.983 First, the civil society trusts the government enough 00:01:32.007 --> 00:01:34.974 to talk about possible new SARS outbreaks in the public forum. 00:01:34.998 --> 00:01:36.965 And the government trusts citizens enough 00:01:36.989 --> 00:01:40.220 to take it seriously, and treat it as if SARS has happened again, 00:01:40.244 --> 00:01:43.514 something we've always been preparing for, since 2003. 00:01:43.538 --> 00:01:45.895 And because of this open civil society, 00:01:45.919 --> 00:01:49.783 according to the CIVICUS Monitor after the Sunflower Occupy, 00:01:49.807 --> 00:01:52.970 Taiwan is now the most open society in the whole of Asia. 00:01:52.994 --> 00:01:55.800 We enjoy the same freedom of speech, of assembly, 00:01:55.824 --> 00:01:58.291 [unclear] as other liberal democracies, 00:01:58.315 --> 00:02:00.522 but with the emphasis on keeping an open mind 00:02:00.546 --> 00:02:03.395 to novel ideas from the society. 00:02:03.419 --> 00:02:06.919 And that is why our schools and businesses still remain open today, 00:02:06.943 --> 00:02:08.172 there was no lockdown, 00:02:08.196 --> 00:02:10.751 it's been a month with no local confirmed cases. 00:02:11.513 --> 00:02:12.663 So the fast part. 00:02:12.997 --> 00:02:16.268 Every day, our Central Epidemic Command Center, or CECC, 00:02:16.292 --> 00:02:18.935 holds a press conference, which is always livestreamed, 00:02:18.959 --> 00:02:20.602 and we work with the journalists, 00:02:20.626 --> 00:02:23.037 they answer all the questions from the journalists, 00:02:23.061 --> 00:02:26.149 and whenever there's a new idea coming in from the social sector, 00:02:26.173 --> 00:02:28.299 anyone can pick up their phone and call 1922 00:02:28.323 --> 00:02:30.458 and tell that idea to the CECC. 00:02:30.482 --> 00:02:32.752 For example, there was one day in April 00:02:32.776 --> 00:02:35.744 where a young boy has said he doesn't want to go to school 00:02:35.768 --> 00:02:37.728 because his school mates may laugh at him 00:02:37.752 --> 00:02:40.458 because all he had is a pink medical mask. 00:02:40.482 --> 00:02:41.657 The very next day, 00:02:41.681 --> 00:02:45.672 everybody in the CECC press conference started wearing pink medical masks, 00:02:45.696 --> 00:02:48.630 making sure that everybody learns about gender mainstreaming. 00:02:48.654 --> 00:02:50.670 And so this kind of rapid response system 00:02:50.694 --> 00:02:53.704 builds trust between the government and the civil society. 00:02:53.728 --> 00:02:55.569 And the second focus is fairness. 00:02:55.593 --> 00:02:58.729 Making sure everybody can use their national health insurance card 00:02:58.753 --> 00:03:00.696 to collect masks from nearby pharmacies, 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:04.291 not only do we publish the stock level of masks of all pharmacies, 00:03:04.315 --> 00:03:05.481 6,000 of them, 00:03:05.505 --> 00:03:08.077 we publish it every 30 seconds. 00:03:08.101 --> 00:03:12.092 That's why our civic hackers, our civil engineers in the digital space, 00:03:12.116 --> 00:03:16.250 built more than 100 tools that enable people to view a map, 00:03:16.274 --> 00:03:20.156 or people with blindness who talk to chat bots, voice assistants, 00:03:20.180 --> 00:03:23.297 all of them can get the same inclusive access to information 00:03:23.321 --> 00:03:26.051 about which pharmacies near them still have masks. 00:03:26.075 --> 00:03:28.789 And because the national health insurance single payer 00:03:28.813 --> 00:03:31.980 is more than 99,9 percent of health coverage, 00:03:32.004 --> 00:03:33.458 people who show any symptoms 00:03:33.482 --> 00:03:35.641 will then be able to take the medical mask, 00:03:35.665 --> 00:03:36.950 go to a local clinic, 00:03:36.974 --> 00:03:39.205 knowing fully that they will get treated fairly 00:03:39.229 --> 00:03:41.267 without incurring any financial burden. 00:03:41.291 --> 00:03:42.934 And so people designed a dashboard 00:03:42.958 --> 00:03:45.498 that lets everybody see our supply is indeed growing, 00:03:45.522 --> 00:03:47.752 and whether there's over- or undersupply, 00:03:47.776 --> 00:03:50.315 so that we codesign this distribution system 00:03:50.339 --> 00:03:52.760 with the pharmacies, with the whole of society. 00:03:52.784 --> 00:03:54.783 So based on this analysis, 00:03:54.807 --> 00:03:58.677 we show that there was a peak at 70 percent, 00:03:58.701 --> 00:04:02.955 and that remaining 20 percent of people were often young, work very long hours, 00:04:02.979 --> 00:04:05.917 when they go off work, the pharmacies also went off work, 00:04:05.941 --> 00:04:08.184 and so we work with convenience stores 00:04:08.208 --> 00:04:10.520 so that everybody can collect their mask anytime, 00:04:10.544 --> 00:04:11.955 24 hours a day. 00:04:11.979 --> 00:04:13.737 So we ensure fairness of all kinds, 00:04:13.761 --> 00:04:16.561 based on the digital democracy's feedback. 00:04:17.074 --> 00:04:20.680 And finally, I would like to acknowledge that this is a very stressful time. 00:04:20.704 --> 00:04:22.998 People feel anxious, outraged, 00:04:23.022 --> 00:04:24.467 there's a lot of panic buying, 00:04:24.491 --> 00:04:27.315 a lot of conspiracy theories in all economies. 00:04:27.339 --> 00:04:28.512 And in Taiwan, 00:04:28.536 --> 00:04:31.330 our counter-this-information strategy is very simple. 00:04:31.354 --> 00:04:33.866 It's called "humor over rumor." 00:04:34.196 --> 00:04:37.220 So when there was a panic buying of toilet paper, for example, 00:04:37.244 --> 00:04:38.680 there was a rumor that says, 00:04:38.704 --> 00:04:40.537 "Oh, we're ramping up mass production, 00:04:40.561 --> 00:04:42.474 it's the same material as tissue papers, 00:04:42.498 --> 00:04:44.879 and so we'll run out of tissue paper soon." 00:04:44.903 --> 00:04:48.868 And our premier showed a very memetic picture 00:04:48.892 --> 00:04:50.727 that I simply have to share with you. 00:04:50.751 --> 00:04:52.116 In very large print, 00:04:52.140 --> 00:04:54.623 he shows his bottom, 00:04:54.647 --> 00:04:56.839 wiggling it a little bit, 00:04:56.863 --> 00:04:58.887 and then the large print says 00:04:58.911 --> 00:05:01.707 "Each of us only have one pair of buttocks." 00:05:01.731 --> 00:05:04.744 And of course, the serious table shows 00:05:04.768 --> 00:05:07.704 that tissue paper came from South American materials, 00:05:07.728 --> 00:05:09.950 and medical masks come from domestic materials, 00:05:09.974 --> 00:05:12.418 and there's no way that ramping up production of one 00:05:12.442 --> 00:05:14.791 will hurt the production of the other. 00:05:14.815 --> 00:05:16.847 And so that went absolutely viral. 00:05:16.871 --> 00:05:19.228 And because of that, the panic buying died down 00:05:19.252 --> 00:05:20.688 in a day or two. 00:05:20.712 --> 00:05:24.332 And finally, we found out the person who spread the rumor in the first place 00:05:24.356 --> 00:05:25.791 was the tissue-paper reseller. 00:05:25.815 --> 00:05:28.553 And this is not just a single shock point in social media. 00:05:28.577 --> 00:05:29.734 Every single day, 00:05:29.758 --> 00:05:31.776 the daily press conference gets translated 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.455 by the spokesdog of the Ministry of Health and Welfare, 00:05:34.479 --> 00:05:36.658 that translated a lot of things. 00:05:36.682 --> 00:05:40.609 For example, our physical distancing is phrased as saying 00:05:40.633 --> 00:05:43.730 "If you are outdoor, you need to keep two dog-lengths away, 00:05:43.754 --> 00:05:46.794 if you are indoor, three dog-lengths away," and so on. 00:05:46.818 --> 00:05:48.863 And hand sanitation rules, and so on. 00:05:48.887 --> 00:05:50.712 So because all this goes viral, 00:05:50.736 --> 00:05:54.029 we make sure that the factual humor spreads faster than rumor. 00:05:54.053 --> 00:05:56.651 And they serve as a vaccine, as inoculation, 00:05:56.675 --> 00:05:58.958 so that when people see the conspiracy theories, 00:05:58.982 --> 00:06:01.093 the R0 value of that will be below one, 00:06:01.117 --> 00:06:03.919 meaning that those ideas will not spread. 00:06:03.943 --> 00:06:06.610 And so I only have this five-minute briefing, 00:06:06.634 --> 00:06:09.078 the rest of it will be driven by your Q and A, 00:06:09.102 --> 00:06:10.713 but please feel free to read more 00:06:10.737 --> 00:06:13.421 about Taiwan's counter-coronavirus strategy, 00:06:13.445 --> 00:06:15.164 at taiwancanhelp.us. 00:06:15.188 --> 00:06:16.338 Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:19.109 --> 00:06:20.783 DB: That's incredible. 00:06:20.807 --> 00:06:25.233 And I love this "humor versus rumor." 00:06:26.219 --> 00:06:28.242 The problem here in the US, perhaps, 00:06:28.266 --> 00:06:33.415 is that the rumors seem to travel faster than any response, 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:34.645 whether humorous or not. 00:06:34.669 --> 00:06:38.334 How do you defeat that aspect in Taiwan? NOTE Paragraph 00:06:39.527 --> 00:06:41.670 AT: Yeah, we found that, of course, 00:06:41.694 --> 00:06:45.340 humor implicitly means there is a sublimation 00:06:45.364 --> 00:06:48.934 of upsetness, of outrage. 00:06:48.958 --> 00:06:52.934 And so as you see, for example, in our premier's example, 00:06:52.958 --> 00:06:55.029 he makes fun of himself. 00:06:55.053 --> 00:06:58.849 He doesn't make a joke at the expense of other people. 00:06:58.873 --> 00:07:00.357 And this was the key. 00:07:00.381 --> 00:07:02.286 Because people think it hilarious, 00:07:02.310 --> 00:07:03.460 they share it, 00:07:03.484 --> 00:07:06.428 but with no malicious or toxic intentions. 00:07:06.452 --> 00:07:08.378 People remember the actual payload, 00:07:08.402 --> 00:07:11.355 that table about materials used to produce masks, 00:07:11.379 --> 00:07:12.550 much more easily. 00:07:12.574 --> 00:07:16.930 If they make a joke that excludes parts of the society, 00:07:16.954 --> 00:07:19.550 of course, that part of society will feel outraged 00:07:19.574 --> 00:07:21.907 and we will end up creating more divisiveness, 00:07:21.931 --> 00:07:24.074 rather than prosocial behavior. 00:07:24.098 --> 00:07:27.410 So the humor at no expense, 00:07:27.434 --> 00:07:30.144 not excluding any part of society, 00:07:30.168 --> 00:07:31.835 I think that was the key. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:33.847 --> 00:07:35.044 DB: It's also incredible 00:07:35.068 --> 00:07:40.854 because Taiwan has such close ties to the origin point of this. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:40.878 --> 00:07:42.045 AT: PRC, yes. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:42.069 --> 00:07:43.235 DB: The mainland. 00:07:43.259 --> 00:07:47.204 So given those close economic ties, 00:07:47.228 --> 00:07:51.021 how do you survive that kind of disruption? NOTE Paragraph 00:07:52.919 --> 00:07:56.425 AT: Yeah, I mean, at this moment, 00:07:56.449 --> 00:07:59.887 it's been almost a month now with no local confirmed cases, 00:07:59.911 --> 00:08:01.141 so we're doing fine. 00:08:01.165 --> 00:08:02.832 And what we are doing, essentially, 00:08:02.856 --> 00:08:06.641 is just to respond faster than pretty much anyone. 00:08:06.665 --> 00:08:09.260 We started responding last year, 00:08:09.284 --> 00:08:12.624 whereas pretty much everybody else started responding this year. 00:08:12.648 --> 00:08:15.909 We tried to warn the world last year, but, anyway. 00:08:15.933 --> 00:08:17.086 So in any case, 00:08:17.110 --> 00:08:19.848 the point here is that if you start early enough, 00:08:19.872 --> 00:08:23.355 you get to make sure that the border control 00:08:23.379 --> 00:08:28.823 is the main point where you quarantine all the returning residents and so on, 00:08:28.847 --> 00:08:31.786 instead of waiting until the community spread stage, 00:08:31.810 --> 00:08:35.672 where even more human-right invading techniques 00:08:35.696 --> 00:08:38.402 would probably have to be deployed one way or the other. 00:08:38.426 --> 00:08:41.682 And so in Taiwan, we've not declared an emergency situation. 00:08:41.706 --> 00:08:44.285 We're firmly under the constitutional law. 00:08:44.309 --> 00:08:47.095 Because of that, every measure the administration is taking 00:08:47.119 --> 00:08:49.609 is also applicable in non-coronavirus times. 00:08:49.633 --> 00:08:51.704 And this forces us to innovate. 00:08:51.728 --> 00:08:55.992 Much as the idea of "we are an open liberal democracy" 00:08:56.016 --> 00:08:58.318 prevented us from doing takedowns. 00:08:58.342 --> 00:09:01.532 And therefore, we have to innovate of humor versus rumor, 00:09:01.556 --> 00:09:04.268 because the easy path, the takedown of online speech, 00:09:04.292 --> 00:09:06.283 is not accessible to us. 00:09:06.307 --> 00:09:09.481 Our design criteria, which is no lockdowns, 00:09:09.505 --> 00:09:13.132 also prevented us from doing any, you know, 00:09:13.156 --> 00:09:16.507 very invasive privacy encroaching response system. 00:09:16.531 --> 00:09:18.389 So we have to innovate at the border, 00:09:18.413 --> 00:09:21.396 and make sure that we have a sufficient number of, for example, 00:09:21.420 --> 00:09:23.872 quarantine hotels or the so-called "digital fences," 00:09:23.896 --> 00:09:28.529 where your phone is basically connected to the nearby telecoms, 00:09:28.553 --> 00:09:33.347 and they make sure that if they go out of the 15-meter or so radius, 00:09:33.371 --> 00:09:38.114 an SMS is sent to the local household managers or police and so on. 00:09:38.138 --> 00:09:41.052 But because we focus all these measures at the border, 00:09:41.076 --> 00:09:43.686 the vast majority of people live a normal life. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:45.267 --> 00:09:47.130 DB: Let's talk about that a little bit. 00:09:47.154 --> 00:09:49.497 So walk me through the digital tools 00:09:49.521 --> 00:09:52.219 and how they were applied to COVID. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:53.196 --> 00:09:54.362 AT: Yes. 00:09:54.386 --> 00:09:57.791 So there's three parts that I just outlined. 00:09:57.815 --> 00:10:00.887 The first one is the collective intelligence system. 00:10:00.911 --> 00:10:02.402 Through online spaces 00:10:02.426 --> 00:10:06.387 that we design to be devoid of Reply buttons, 00:10:06.411 --> 00:10:09.228 because we see that, when there's Reply buttons, 00:10:09.252 --> 00:10:13.448 people focus on each other's face part, not the book part, 00:10:13.472 --> 00:10:15.006 and without "Reply" buttons, 00:10:15.030 --> 00:10:17.085 you can get collective intelligence 00:10:17.109 --> 00:10:22.156 working out their rough consensus of where the direction is going 00:10:22.180 --> 00:10:23.783 with the response strategies. 00:10:23.807 --> 00:10:25.656 So we use a lot of new technologies, 00:10:25.680 --> 00:10:26.831 such as Polis, 00:10:26.855 --> 00:10:30.473 which is essentially a forum that lets you upvote and downvote 00:10:30.497 --> 00:10:32.934 each other's feelings, 00:10:32.958 --> 00:10:34.926 but with real-time clustering, 00:10:34.950 --> 00:10:37.641 so that if you go to cohack.tw, 00:10:37.665 --> 00:10:39.732 you see six such conversations, 00:10:39.756 --> 00:10:42.721 talking about how to protect the most vulnerable people, 00:10:42.745 --> 00:10:44.348 how to make a smooth transition, 00:10:44.372 --> 00:10:47.815 how to make a fair distribution of supplies and so on. 00:10:47.839 --> 00:10:50.299 And people are free to voice their ideas, 00:10:50.323 --> 00:10:52.625 and upvote and downvote each other's ideas. 00:10:52.649 --> 00:10:56.434 But the trick is that we show people the main divisive points, 00:10:56.458 --> 00:10:57.958 and the main consensual points, 00:10:57.982 --> 00:11:00.276 and we respond only to the ideas 00:11:00.300 --> 00:11:03.053 that can convince all the different opinion groups. 00:11:03.077 --> 00:11:07.017 So people are encouraged to post more eclectic, more nuanced ideas 00:11:07.041 --> 00:11:10.326 and they discover, at the end of this consultation, 00:11:10.350 --> 00:11:12.684 that everybody, actually, agrees with most things, 00:11:12.708 --> 00:11:15.406 with most of their neighbors on most of the issues. 00:11:15.430 --> 00:11:17.895 And that is what we call the social mandate, 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:19.339 or the democratic mandate, 00:11:19.363 --> 00:11:23.299 that then informs our development of the counter-coronavirus strategy 00:11:23.323 --> 00:11:25.911 and helping the world with such tools. 00:11:25.935 --> 00:11:27.397 And so this is the first part, 00:11:27.421 --> 00:11:30.476 it's called listening at scale for rough consensus. 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:34.040 The second part I already covered is the distribute ledger, 00:11:34.064 --> 00:11:36.306 where everybody can go to a nearby pharmacy, 00:11:36.330 --> 00:11:40.029 present their NHI card, buy nine masks, or 10 if you're a child, 00:11:40.053 --> 00:11:43.323 and see the stock level of that pharmacy on their phone 00:11:43.347 --> 00:11:47.029 actually decreasing by nine or 10 in a couple of minutes. 00:11:47.053 --> 00:11:49.141 And if they grow by nine or 10, 00:11:49.165 --> 00:11:50.653 of course, you call the 1922, 00:11:50.677 --> 00:11:52.887 and report something fishy is going on. 00:11:52.911 --> 00:11:55.241 But this is participatory accountability. 00:11:55.265 --> 00:11:56.998 This is published every 30 seconds. 00:11:57.022 --> 00:11:59.069 So everybody holds each other accountable, 00:11:59.093 --> 00:12:01.196 and that massively increases trust. 00:12:01.220 --> 00:12:04.557 And finally, the third one, the humor versus rumor, 00:12:04.581 --> 00:12:07.403 I think the important thing to see here 00:12:07.427 --> 00:12:10.967 is that wherever there's a trending disinformation or conspiracy theory, 00:12:10.991 --> 00:12:13.410 you respond to it with a humorous package 00:12:13.434 --> 00:12:14.696 within two hours. 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.487 We have discovered, if we respond within two hours, 00:12:17.511 --> 00:12:21.543 then more people see the vaccination than the conspiracy theory. 00:12:21.567 --> 00:12:25.255 But if you respond four hours or a day afterwards, 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:26.472 then that's a lost cause. 00:12:26.496 --> 00:12:29.767 You can't really counter that using humor anymore, 00:12:29.791 --> 00:12:33.156 you have to invite the person who spread those messages 00:12:33.180 --> 00:12:34.783 into cocreation workshops. 00:12:34.807 --> 00:12:36.607 But we're OK with that too. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:37.807 --> 00:12:39.276 DB: Your speed is incredible. 00:12:39.300 --> 00:12:42.336 I see Whitney has joined us with some questions. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:42.990 --> 00:12:44.856 Whitney Pennigton Rogers: That's right, 00:12:44.880 --> 00:12:47.234 we have a few coming in already from the audience. 00:12:47.258 --> 00:12:48.440 Hi there, Audrey. 00:12:48.464 --> 00:12:52.140 And we'll start with one from our community member Michael Backes. 00:12:52.164 --> 00:12:56.117 He asks how long has humor versus rumor been a strategy 00:12:56.141 --> 00:12:57.333 that you've implemented. 00:12:57.357 --> 00:12:58.508 Excuse me. 00:12:58.532 --> 00:13:01.318 "How long has humor versus rumor strategy been implemented? 00:13:01.342 --> 00:13:05.056 Were comedians consulted to make the humor?" NOTE Paragraph 00:13:05.713 --> 00:13:06.904 AT: Yes, definitely. 00:13:06.928 --> 00:13:10.391 Comedians are our most cherished colleagues. 00:13:10.415 --> 00:13:15.522 And each and every ministry has a team of what we call participation officers 00:13:15.546 --> 00:13:19.283 in charge of engaging with trending topics. 00:13:19.307 --> 00:13:22.031 And it's a more than 100 people-strong team now. 00:13:22.055 --> 00:13:24.623 We meet every month and also every couple of weeks 00:13:24.647 --> 00:13:26.472 on specific topics. 00:13:26.496 --> 00:13:30.987 It's been like that since late 2016, 00:13:31.011 --> 00:13:35.172 but it's not until our previous spokesperson, Kolas Yotaka, 00:13:35.196 --> 00:13:37.862 joined about a year and a half ago, 00:13:37.886 --> 00:13:40.418 do the professional comedians get to the team. 00:13:40.442 --> 00:13:46.659 Previously, this was more about inviting the people who post, you know, 00:13:46.683 --> 00:13:51.350 quotes like "Our tax filing system is explosively hostile," 00:13:51.374 --> 00:13:52.526 and gets trending, 00:13:52.550 --> 00:13:55.492 and previously, the POs just invited those people. 00:13:55.516 --> 00:13:57.049 Everybody who complains 00:13:57.073 --> 00:13:59.412 about the finance minister's tax-filing experience 00:13:59.436 --> 00:14:02.411 gets invited to the cocreation of that tax filing experience. 00:14:02.435 --> 00:14:03.746 So previously, it was that. 00:14:03.770 --> 00:14:06.854 But Kolas Yotaka and the premier Su Tseng-chang said, 00:14:06.878 --> 00:14:09.132 wouldn't it be much better and reach more people 00:14:09.156 --> 00:14:12.371 if we add some dogs to it or cat's pictures to it? 00:14:12.395 --> 00:14:14.880 And that's been around for a year and a half. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:20.320 WPR: Definitely, I think it makes a lot of difference, just even seeing them 00:14:20.344 --> 00:14:23.371 without being part of the thought process behind that. 00:14:23.395 --> 00:14:27.925 And we have another question here from G. Ryan Ansin. 00:14:28.990 --> 00:14:31.751 He asks, "What would you rank the level of trust 00:14:31.775 --> 00:14:33.695 your community had before the pandemic, 00:14:33.719 --> 00:14:35.846 in order for the government to have a chance 00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:38.337 at properly controlling this crisis?" NOTE Paragraph 00:14:39.310 --> 00:14:42.023 AT: I would say that a community trusts each other. 00:14:42.047 --> 00:14:44.787 And that is the main point of digital democracy. 00:14:44.811 --> 00:14:47.569 This is not about people trusting the government more. 00:14:47.593 --> 00:14:50.601 This is about the government trusting the citizens more, 00:14:50.625 --> 00:14:53.093 making the state transparent to the citizen, 00:14:53.117 --> 00:14:55.101 not the citizen transparent to the state, 00:14:55.125 --> 00:14:56.807 which would be some other regime. 00:14:56.831 --> 00:14:59.046 So making the state transparent to the citizens 00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:01.299 doesn't always elicit more trust, 00:15:01.323 --> 00:15:03.982 because you may see something wrong, something missing, 00:15:04.006 --> 00:15:06.918 something exclusively hostile to its user experience, 00:15:06.942 --> 00:15:08.466 an so on, of the state. 00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:11.751 So it doesn't necessarily lead to more trust from the government. 00:15:11.775 --> 00:15:13.799 Sorry, from the citizen to the government. 00:15:13.823 --> 00:15:17.600 But it always leads to more trust between the social sector stakeholders. 00:15:17.624 --> 00:15:20.721 So I would say the level of trust between the people 00:15:20.745 --> 00:15:23.277 who are working on, for example, 00:15:23.301 --> 00:15:25.627 medical officers, 00:15:25.651 --> 00:15:28.983 and people who are working with the pandemic responses, 00:15:29.007 --> 00:15:30.879 people who manufacture medical masks, 00:15:30.903 --> 00:15:32.069 and so on, 00:15:32.093 --> 00:15:33.259 all these people, 00:15:33.283 --> 00:15:35.443 the trust level between them is very high. 00:15:35.467 --> 00:15:38.197 And not necessarily they trust the government. 00:15:38.221 --> 00:15:41.664 But we don't need that for a successful response. 00:15:41.688 --> 00:15:43.704 If you ask a random person on the street, 00:15:43.728 --> 00:15:47.695 they will say Taiwan is performing so well because of the people. 00:15:47.719 --> 00:15:49.894 When the CECC tells us to wear the mask, 00:15:49.918 --> 00:15:51.086 we wear the mask. 00:15:51.110 --> 00:15:53.163 When the CECC tells us not to wear a mask, 00:15:53.187 --> 00:15:55.203 like, if you are keeping physical distance, 00:15:55.227 --> 00:15:56.821 we wear a mask anyway. 00:15:56.845 --> 00:15:58.227 And so because of that, 00:15:58.251 --> 00:16:02.300 I think it's the social sector's trust between those different stakeholders 00:16:02.324 --> 00:16:04.245 that's the key to the response. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:06.094 --> 00:16:08.579 WPR: I will come back shortly with more questions, 00:16:08.603 --> 00:16:11.332 but I'll leave you guys to continue your conversation. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:11.356 --> 00:16:12.823 AT: Awesome. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:12.847 --> 00:16:16.780 DB: Well, clearly, part of that trust in government 00:16:16.804 --> 00:16:22.434 was maybe not there in 2014 during the Sunflower Movement. 00:16:22.458 --> 00:16:24.918 So talk to me about that 00:16:24.942 --> 00:16:30.028 and how that led to this, kind of, digital transformation. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:31.535 --> 00:16:32.703 AT: Indeed. 00:16:32.727 --> 00:16:38.976 Before March 2014, if you asked a random person on the street in Taiwan, 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:43.355 like, whether it's possible for a minister -- that's me -- 00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:46.909 to have their office in a park, literally a park, 00:16:46.933 --> 00:16:50.245 anyone can walk in and talk to me for 40 minutes at a time, 00:16:50.269 --> 00:16:53.118 I'm currently in that park, the Social Innovation Lab, 00:16:53.142 --> 00:16:55.158 they would say that this is crazy, right? 00:16:55.182 --> 00:16:57.418 No public officials work like that. 00:16:57.442 --> 00:17:01.141 But that was because on March 18, 2014, 00:17:01.165 --> 00:17:03.950 hundreds of young activists, most of them college students, 00:17:03.974 --> 00:17:05.466 occupied the legislature 00:17:05.490 --> 00:17:09.208 to express their profound opposition to a trade pact with Beijing 00:17:09.232 --> 00:17:10.831 under consideration, 00:17:10.855 --> 00:17:14.661 and the secretive manner in which it was pushed through the parliament 00:17:14.685 --> 00:17:16.876 by Kuomintang, the ruling party at the time. 00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:19.003 And so the protesters demanded, very simply, 00:17:19.027 --> 00:17:20.569 that the pact be scraped, 00:17:20.593 --> 00:17:24.467 and the government to institute a more transparent ratification process. 00:17:24.783 --> 00:17:26.895 And that drew widespread public support. 00:17:26.919 --> 00:17:29.617 It ended a little more than three weeks later, 00:17:29.641 --> 00:17:32.609 after the government promised and agreed 00:17:32.633 --> 00:17:37.387 on the four demands [unclear] of legislative oversight. 00:17:37.411 --> 00:17:39.561 A poll released after the occupation 00:17:39.585 --> 00:17:43.390 showed that more than 75 percent remained dissatisfied 00:17:43.414 --> 00:17:44.760 with the ruling government, 00:17:44.784 --> 00:17:48.876 illustrating the crisis of trust that was caused by a trade deal dispute. 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:51.309 And to heal this rift and communicate better 00:17:51.333 --> 00:17:52.544 with everyday citizens, 00:17:52.568 --> 00:17:56.498 the administration reached out to the people who supported the occupiers, 00:17:56.522 --> 00:17:59.307 for example, the g0v community, 00:17:59.331 --> 00:18:02.006 which has been seeking to improve government transparency 00:18:02.030 --> 00:18:04.100 through the creation of open-source tools. 00:18:04.124 --> 00:18:07.236 And so, Jaclyn Tsai, a government minister at the time, 00:18:07.260 --> 00:18:08.712 attended our hackathon 00:18:08.736 --> 00:18:12.085 and proposed the establishment of novel platforms 00:18:12.109 --> 00:18:15.299 with the online community to exchange policy ideas. 00:18:15.323 --> 00:18:18.336 And an experiment was born called vTaiwan, 00:18:18.360 --> 00:18:21.074 that pioneerly used tools such as Polis, 00:18:21.098 --> 00:18:24.514 that allows for "agree" or "disagree" with no Reply button, 00:18:24.538 --> 00:18:28.926 that gets people's rough consensus on issues such as crowdfunding, 00:18:28.950 --> 00:18:31.387 equity-based crowdfunding, to be precise, 00:18:31.411 --> 00:18:34.831 teleworking and many other cyber-related legislation, 00:18:34.855 --> 00:18:37.831 of which there is no existing unions or associations. 00:18:37.855 --> 00:18:39.827 And it proved to be very successful. 00:18:39.851 --> 00:18:42.955 They solved the Uber problem, for example, 00:18:42.979 --> 00:18:44.836 and by now, you can call an Uber -- 00:18:44.860 --> 00:18:47.656 I just called an Uber this week -- 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.578 but in any case, they are operating as taxis. 00:18:50.602 --> 00:18:53.808 They set up a local taxi company called Q Taxi, 00:18:53.832 --> 00:18:57.669 and that was because on the platform, people cared about insurance, 00:18:57.693 --> 00:18:59.143 they care about registration, 00:18:59.167 --> 00:19:03.281 they care about all the sort of, protection of the passengers, and so on. 00:19:03.305 --> 00:19:05.934 So we changed the taxi regulations, 00:19:05.958 --> 00:19:08.831 and now Uber is just another taxi company 00:19:08.855 --> 00:19:10.855 along with the other co-ops. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:11.871 --> 00:19:14.009 DB: So you're actually, in a way, 00:19:14.033 --> 00:19:18.813 crowdsourcing laws that, well, then become laws. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:19.464 --> 00:19:22.035 AT: Yeah, learn more at crowd.law. 00:19:22.059 --> 00:19:23.467 It's a real website. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:24.568 --> 00:19:28.683 DB: So, some might say that this seems easier, 00:19:28.707 --> 00:19:31.533 because Taiwan is an island, 00:19:31.557 --> 00:19:34.744 that maybe helps you control COVID, 00:19:34.768 --> 00:19:36.907 helps promote social cohesion, 00:19:36.931 --> 00:19:41.042 maybe it's a smaller country than some. 00:19:41.066 --> 00:19:44.800 Do you think that this could be scaled beyond Taiwan? NOTE Paragraph 00:19:46.182 --> 00:19:47.428 AT: Well, first of all, 00:19:47.452 --> 00:19:50.198 23 million people is still quite some people. 00:19:50.222 --> 00:19:51.760 It's not a city, 00:19:51.784 --> 00:19:56.283 as some usually say, you know, "Taiwan is a city-state." 00:19:56.307 --> 00:20:00.003 Well, 23 million people, not quite a city-state. 00:20:00.027 --> 00:20:01.622 And what I'm trying to get at, 00:20:01.646 --> 00:20:06.685 is that the high population density and a variety of cultures -- 00:20:06.709 --> 00:20:09.317 we have more than 20 national languages -- 00:20:09.341 --> 00:20:14.206 doesn't necessarily lead to social cohesion, as you said. 00:20:14.230 --> 00:20:19.295 Rather, I think, this is the humbleness of all the ministers 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.053 in the counter-coronavirus response. 00:20:22.077 --> 00:20:27.272 They all took on an attitude of "So we learned about SARS" -- 00:20:27.296 --> 00:20:30.485 many of them were in charge of the SARS back then, 00:20:30.509 --> 00:20:32.757 but that was classical epidemiology. 00:20:32.781 --> 00:20:35.910 This is SARS 2.0, it has different characteristics. 00:20:35.934 --> 00:20:38.077 And the tools that we use are very different, 00:20:38.101 --> 00:20:39.934 because of the digital transformation. 00:20:39.958 --> 00:20:43.320 And so we are in it to learn together with the citizens. 00:20:43.344 --> 00:20:46.328 Our vice president at the time, 00:20:46.352 --> 00:20:48.455 Dr. Chen Chien-jen, an academician, 00:20:48.479 --> 00:20:51.680 literally wrote the textbook on epidemiology. 00:20:51.704 --> 00:20:54.047 However, he still says, 00:20:54.071 --> 00:20:57.252 "You know, what I'm going to do is record an online MOOC, 00:20:57.276 --> 00:20:59.244 a crash course on epidemiology, 00:20:59.268 --> 00:21:00.491 that shares with, 00:21:00.515 --> 00:21:03.133 I think, more than 20,00 people enrolled the first day, 00:21:03.157 --> 00:21:04.329 I was among them, 00:21:04.353 --> 00:21:05.831 to learn about important ideas, 00:21:05.855 --> 00:21:10.101 like the R0 and the basic transmission 00:21:10.125 --> 00:21:12.601 and how the various different measures work, 00:21:12.625 --> 00:21:14.801 and then they asked people to innovate. 00:21:14.825 --> 00:21:19.409 If you think of a new way that the vice president did not think of, 00:21:19.433 --> 00:21:20.719 just call 1922, 00:21:20.743 --> 00:21:23.901 and your idea will become the next day's press conference. 00:21:23.925 --> 00:21:26.569 And this is this colearning strategy, 00:21:26.593 --> 00:21:30.736 I think, that more than anything enabled the social cohesion, 00:21:30.760 --> 00:21:31.967 as you speak. 00:21:31.991 --> 00:21:35.832 But this is more of a robust civil society than the uniformity. 00:21:35.856 --> 00:21:38.330 There's no uniformity at all in Taiwan, 00:21:38.354 --> 00:21:40.439 everybody is entitled to their ideas, 00:21:40.463 --> 00:21:41.968 and all the social innovations, 00:21:41.992 --> 00:21:44.468 ranging from using a traditional rice cooker 00:21:44.492 --> 00:21:47.383 to revitalize, to disinfect the mask, 00:21:47.407 --> 00:21:49.228 to pink medical mask, and so on, 00:21:49.252 --> 00:21:51.537 there's all variety of very interesting ideas 00:21:51.561 --> 00:21:54.236 that get amplified by the daily press conference. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:55.685 --> 00:21:58.167 DB: That's beautiful. 00:21:58.748 --> 00:22:00.598 Now -- oh, Whitney is back, 00:22:00.622 --> 00:22:02.900 so I will let her ask the next question. NOTE Paragraph 00:22:04.293 --> 00:22:06.753 WPR: Sure, we're having some more questions come in. 00:22:06.777 --> 00:22:09.642 One from our community member Aria Bendix. 00:22:09.666 --> 00:22:14.028 Aria asked, "How do you ensure that digital campaigns act quickly 00:22:14.052 --> 00:22:15.829 without sacrificing accuracy? 00:22:15.853 --> 00:22:19.609 In the US, there was a fear of inciting panic about COVID-19 00:22:19.633 --> 00:22:21.233 in early January." NOTE Paragraph 00:22:22.684 --> 00:22:24.779 AT: This is a great question. 00:22:24.803 --> 00:22:31.733 So most of the scientific ideas about the COVID are evolving, right? 00:22:32.046 --> 00:22:36.574 The efficacy of masks, for example, is a very good example, 00:22:36.598 --> 00:22:41.943 because the different characteristics of previous respiratory diseases 00:22:41.967 --> 00:22:44.279 respond differently to the facial mask. 00:22:44.303 --> 00:22:46.255 And so, our digital campaigns 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:50.461 focus on the idea of getting the rough consensus through. 00:22:50.485 --> 00:22:52.734 So basically, it's a reflection of the society, 00:22:52.758 --> 00:22:56.585 through Polis, through Slido, through the joint platform, 00:22:56.609 --> 00:22:59.068 the various tools that vTaiwan has prototyped, 00:22:59.092 --> 00:23:02.591 we know that people are feeling a rough consensus about things 00:23:02.615 --> 00:23:05.501 and we're responding to the society, saying, 00:23:05.525 --> 00:23:07.458 "This is what you all feel 00:23:07.482 --> 00:23:10.276 and this is what we're doing to respond to your feelings. 00:23:10.300 --> 00:23:13.045 And the scientific consensus is still developing, 00:23:13.069 --> 00:23:14.474 but we know, for example, 00:23:14.498 --> 00:23:18.268 people feel that wearing a mask mostly protects you, 00:23:18.292 --> 00:23:20.863 because it reminds you to not touch your face 00:23:20.887 --> 00:23:22.449 and wash your hands properly." 00:23:22.473 --> 00:23:24.768 And these, regardless of everything else, 00:23:24.792 --> 00:23:26.950 are the two things that everybody agrees with. 00:23:26.974 --> 00:23:29.156 So we just capitalize on that and say, 00:23:29.180 --> 00:23:31.085 "OK, wash your hands properly, 00:23:31.109 --> 00:23:32.395 and don't touch your face, 00:23:32.419 --> 00:23:34.383 and wearing a mask reminds you of that." 00:23:34.407 --> 00:23:35.907 And that lets us cut through 00:23:35.931 --> 00:23:39.145 the kind of, very ideologically charged debates 00:23:39.169 --> 00:23:43.172 and focus on what people generally resonate with one another. 00:23:43.196 --> 00:23:46.791 And that's how we act quickly without sacrificing scientific accuracy. NOTE Paragraph 00:23:49.012 --> 00:23:52.536 WPR: And this next question sort of feels connected to this as well. 00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:55.545 It's a question from an anonymous community member. 00:23:55.569 --> 00:23:57.891 "Pragmatically, do you think any of your policies 00:23:57.915 --> 00:24:01.764 could be applied in the United States under the current Trump administration?" NOTE Paragraph 00:24:01.788 --> 00:24:03.042 AT: Quite a few, actually. 00:24:03.066 --> 00:24:07.744 We work with many states in the US and abroad 00:24:07.768 --> 00:24:13.347 on what we call "epicenter to epicenter diplomacy." (Laughs) 00:24:13.371 --> 00:24:16.276 So what we're doing essentially is, 00:24:16.300 --> 00:24:18.479 for example, there was a chat bot in Taiwan 00:24:18.503 --> 00:24:21.860 that lets you, but especially people under home quarantine, 00:24:21.884 --> 00:24:23.950 to ask the chat bot anything. 00:24:23.974 --> 00:24:26.743 And if there is a scientific adviser 00:24:26.767 --> 00:24:29.145 who already wrote a frequently asked question, 00:24:29.169 --> 00:24:30.938 the chat bot just responds with that, 00:24:30.962 --> 00:24:34.352 but otherwise, they will call the science advisory board 00:24:34.376 --> 00:24:37.395 and write an accessible response to that, 00:24:37.419 --> 00:24:41.426 and the spokesdog would translate that into a cute dog meme. 00:24:41.450 --> 00:24:43.244 And so this feedback cycle 00:24:43.268 --> 00:24:47.458 of people very easily accessing, finding, and asking a scientist, 00:24:47.482 --> 00:24:50.360 and an open API that allows for voice assistance 00:24:50.384 --> 00:24:54.328 and other third-party developers to get through it, 00:24:54.352 --> 00:24:56.522 resonates with many US states, 00:24:56.546 --> 00:24:59.457 and I think many of them are implementing it. 00:24:59.481 --> 00:25:03.352 And before the World Health Assembly, I think three days before, 00:25:03.376 --> 00:25:07.915 we held a 14 countries [unclear] lateral meeting, 00:25:07.939 --> 00:25:09.305 kind of, pre-WHA, 00:25:09.329 --> 00:25:12.658 where we shared many small, like, quick wins like this. 00:25:12.682 --> 00:25:15.864 And I think many jurisdictions took some of that, 00:25:15.888 --> 00:25:17.595 including the humor versus rumor. 00:25:17.619 --> 00:25:18.785 Many of them said 00:25:18.809 --> 00:25:21.033 that they're going to recruit comedians now. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:21.473 --> 00:25:23.168 WPR: (Laughs) I love that. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:23.192 --> 00:25:24.568 DB: I hope so. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:24.592 --> 00:25:26.385 WPR: I hope so too. 00:25:26.409 --> 00:25:29.284 And we have one more question, which is actually a follow-up, 00:25:29.308 --> 00:25:31.942 from Michael Backes, who asked a question earlier. 00:25:31.966 --> 00:25:35.022 "Does the Ministry plan to publish their plans in a white paper?" 00:25:35.046 --> 00:25:37.804 Sounds like you're already sharing your plans with folks, 00:25:37.828 --> 00:25:40.183 but do you have a plan to put it out on paper? NOTE Paragraph 00:25:40.207 --> 00:25:41.413 AT: Of course. 00:25:41.437 --> 00:25:43.039 Yeah, and multiple white papers. 00:25:43.063 --> 00:25:47.469 So if you go to taiwancanhelp.us, 00:25:47.493 --> 00:25:50.093 that is where most of our strategy is, 00:25:50.117 --> 00:25:53.653 and that website is actually crowdsourced as well, 00:25:53.677 --> 00:25:56.576 and it shows that more than five million now, I think, 00:25:56.600 --> 00:26:00.248 medical masks donated to the humanitarian aid. 00:26:00.272 --> 00:26:01.768 It's also crowdsourced. 00:26:01.792 --> 00:26:05.003 People who have some masks in their homes, 00:26:05.027 --> 00:26:08.026 who did not collect the rationed masks, 00:26:08.050 --> 00:26:09.328 they can use an app, say, 00:26:09.352 --> 00:26:12.818 "I want to dedicate this to international humanitarian aid," 00:26:12.842 --> 00:26:15.984 and half of them choose to publish their names, 00:26:16.008 --> 00:26:19.307 so you can also see the names of people who participated in this. 00:26:19.331 --> 00:26:22.040 And there's also an "Ask Taiwan Anything" website, NOTE Paragraph 00:26:22.064 --> 00:26:23.561 (Laughs) NOTE Paragraph 00:26:23.585 --> 00:26:26.796 at fightcovid.edu.tw, 00:26:26.820 --> 00:26:30.509 that outlines, in white paper form, all the response strategies, 00:26:30.533 --> 00:26:32.033 so check those out. NOTE Paragraph 00:26:33.145 --> 00:26:34.307 WPR: Great. 00:26:34.331 --> 00:26:37.682 Well, I will disappear and be back later with some other questions. NOTE Paragraph 00:26:38.927 --> 00:26:42.156 DB: A blizzard of white papers, if you will. 00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:46.725 I'd like to turn the focus on you a little bit. 00:26:46.749 --> 00:26:52.333 How does a conservative anarchist become a digital minister? NOTE Paragraph 00:26:53.466 --> 00:26:56.950 AT: Yeah, by occupying the parliament, and through that. NOTE Paragraph 00:26:56.974 --> 00:26:57.975 (Laughs) NOTE Paragraph 00:26:57.999 --> 00:26:59.172 More interestingly, 00:26:59.196 --> 00:27:03.220 I would say that I go working with the government, 00:27:03.244 --> 00:27:05.090 but never for the government. 00:27:05.114 --> 00:27:07.780 And I work with the people, not for the people. 00:27:07.804 --> 00:27:10.468 I'm like this Lagrange point 00:27:10.492 --> 00:27:13.220 between the people's movements on one side, 00:27:13.244 --> 00:27:15.565 and the government on the other side. 00:27:16.395 --> 00:27:18.165 Sometimes right in the middle, 00:27:18.189 --> 00:27:20.363 trying to do some coach or translation work. 00:27:20.387 --> 00:27:22.958 Sometimes in a kind of triangle point, 00:27:22.982 --> 00:27:28.299 trying to supply both sides with tools for prosocial communication. 00:27:28.323 --> 00:27:30.901 But always with this idea 00:27:30.925 --> 00:27:35.022 of getting the shared values out of different positions, 00:27:35.046 --> 00:27:36.577 out of varied positions. 00:27:36.601 --> 00:27:37.853 Because all too often, 00:27:37.877 --> 00:27:41.323 democracy is built as a showdown between opposing values. 00:27:41.347 --> 00:27:44.379 But in the pandemic, in the infodemic, 00:27:44.403 --> 00:27:45.815 in climate change, 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:47.918 in many of those structural issues, 00:27:47.942 --> 00:27:52.201 the virus or carbon dioxide doesn't sit down and negotiate with you. 00:27:52.225 --> 00:27:55.907 It's a structural issue that requires common values 00:27:55.931 --> 00:27:57.569 built out of different positions. 00:27:57.593 --> 00:28:03.025 And so that is why my working principle is radical transparency. 00:28:03.049 --> 00:28:05.228 Every conversation, including this one, 00:28:05.252 --> 00:28:06.425 is on the record, 00:28:06.449 --> 00:28:08.606 including the internal meetings that I hold. 00:28:08.630 --> 00:28:11.995 So you can see all the different meeting transcripts 00:28:12.019 --> 00:28:14.955 in my YouTube channel, in the SayIt platform, 00:28:14.979 --> 00:28:17.548 where people can see, after I became digital minister, 00:28:17.572 --> 00:28:21.055 I held 1,300 meetings with more than 5,000 speakers, 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:24.791 with more than 260,000 utterances. 00:28:24.815 --> 00:28:27.626 And every one of them has a URL 00:28:27.650 --> 00:28:31.018 that becomes a social object that people can have a conversation on. 00:28:31.042 --> 00:28:32.264 And because of that, 00:28:32.288 --> 00:28:37.831 for example, when Uber's David Plouffe visited me to lobby for Uber, 00:28:37.855 --> 00:28:39.401 because of radical transparency, 00:28:39.425 --> 00:28:41.625 he is very much aware of that, 00:28:41.649 --> 00:28:44.201 and so he made all the arguments based on public good, 00:28:44.225 --> 00:28:46.434 based on sustainability, and things like that, 00:28:46.458 --> 00:28:50.395 because he knows that the other sides would see his positions 00:28:50.419 --> 00:28:52.244 very clearly and transparently. 00:28:52.268 --> 00:28:55.395 So that encourages people to add on each other's argument, 00:28:55.419 --> 00:28:58.312 instead of attacking each other's person, 00:28:58.336 --> 00:29:00.304 you know, credits and things like that. 00:29:00.328 --> 00:29:02.249 And so I think that, more than anything, 00:29:02.273 --> 00:29:06.568 is the main principle of conserving the anarchism of the internet, 00:29:06.592 --> 00:29:07.809 which is about, you know, 00:29:07.833 --> 00:29:11.160 nobody can force anyone to hook to the internet, 00:29:11.184 --> 00:29:13.541 or to adhere to a new internet protocol. 00:29:13.565 --> 00:29:17.116 Everything has to be done using rough consensus and running code. NOTE Paragraph 00:29:18.649 --> 00:29:21.990 DB: I wish you had more counterparts all around the world. 00:29:22.014 --> 00:29:24.967 Maybe you wish you had more counterparts all around the world. NOTE Paragraph 00:29:25.338 --> 00:29:27.700 AT: That's why these ideas are worth spreading. NOTE Paragraph 00:29:28.076 --> 00:29:29.250 DB: There you go. 00:29:29.274 --> 00:29:35.359 So one of the challenges that might arise with some of these digital tools 00:29:35.383 --> 00:29:36.723 is access. 00:29:36.747 --> 00:29:39.143 How do you approach that part of it 00:29:39.167 --> 00:29:43.409 for folks maybe who don't have the best broadband connection 00:29:43.433 --> 00:29:48.590 or the latest mobile phone or whatever it might be that's required? NOTE Paragraph 00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:51.264 AT: Well, anywhere in Taiwan, 00:29:51.288 --> 00:29:54.778 even on the top of Taiwan, almost 4,000 meters high, 00:29:54.802 --> 00:29:56.852 the Saviah, or the Jade Mountain, 00:29:56.876 --> 00:30:00.043 you're guaranteed to have 10 megabits per second 00:30:00.067 --> 00:30:02.291 over 4G or fiber or cable, 00:30:02.315 --> 00:30:06.899 with just 16 US dollars a month, an unlimited plan. 00:30:06.923 --> 00:30:10.201 And actually, on the top of the mountain, it's faster, 00:30:10.225 --> 00:30:12.209 fewer people use that bandwidth. 00:30:12.233 --> 00:30:14.029 And if you don't, it's my fault. 00:30:14.053 --> 00:30:15.283 It's personally my fault. 00:30:15.307 --> 00:30:17.958 In Taiwan, we have broadband as a human right. 00:30:17.982 --> 00:30:19.934 And so when we're deploying 5G, 00:30:19.958 --> 00:30:23.125 we're looking at places where the 4G has the weakest signal, 00:30:23.149 --> 00:30:27.014 and we begin with those places in our 5G deployment. 00:30:27.038 --> 00:30:30.101 And only by deploying broadband as a human right 00:30:30.125 --> 00:30:33.068 can we say that this is for everybody. 00:30:33.092 --> 00:30:36.433 That digital democracy actually strengthens democracy. 00:30:36.457 --> 00:30:39.583 Otherwise, we would be excluding parts of the society. 00:30:39.607 --> 00:30:41.459 And this also applies to, for example, 00:30:41.483 --> 00:30:43.839 you can go to a local digital opportunity center 00:30:43.863 --> 00:30:45.643 to rent a tablet that's guaranteed 00:30:45.667 --> 00:30:47.968 to be manufactured in the past three years, 00:30:47.992 --> 00:30:49.189 and things like that, 00:30:49.213 --> 00:30:51.822 to enable, also, the different digital access 00:30:51.846 --> 00:30:56.101 by the digital opportunity centers, universities and schools, 00:30:56.125 --> 00:30:58.378 and public libraries, very important. 00:30:58.402 --> 00:31:01.625 And if people who prefer to talk in their town hall, 00:31:01.649 --> 00:31:06.185 I personally go to that town hall with a 360 recorder, 00:31:06.209 --> 00:31:09.471 and livestream that to Taipei and to other municipalities, 00:31:09.495 --> 00:31:12.101 where the central government's public servants can join 00:31:12.125 --> 00:31:13.825 in a connected room style, 00:31:13.849 --> 00:31:16.509 but listening to the local people who set the agenda. 00:31:16.533 --> 00:31:19.145 So people still do face-to-face meetings, 00:31:19.169 --> 00:31:21.733 we're not doing this to replace face-to-face meetings. 00:31:21.757 --> 00:31:23.522 We're bringing more stakeholders 00:31:23.546 --> 00:31:26.133 from central government in the local town halls, 00:31:26.157 --> 00:31:28.078 and we're amplifying their voices 00:31:28.102 --> 00:31:31.285 by making sure the transcripts, the mind maps, and things like that 00:31:31.309 --> 00:31:33.966 are spread through the internet in real time, 00:31:33.990 --> 00:31:36.776 but we don't ever ask the elderly to, say, 00:31:36.800 --> 00:31:39.918 "Oh, you have to learn typing, otherwise you don't do democracy." 00:31:39.942 --> 00:31:41.109 It's not our style. 00:31:41.133 --> 00:31:42.473 But that requires broadband. 00:31:42.497 --> 00:31:45.960 Because if you don't have broadband, but only a very limited bandwidth, 00:31:45.984 --> 00:31:48.196 you are forced to use text-based communication. NOTE Paragraph 00:31:48.521 --> 00:31:49.752 DB: That's right. 00:31:49.776 --> 00:31:51.217 Well, with access, of course, 00:31:51.241 --> 00:31:55.568 comes access for folks who maybe will misuse the platform. 00:31:55.592 --> 00:31:58.106 You talked a little bit about disinformation 00:31:58.130 --> 00:31:59.868 and using humor to beat rumor. 00:31:59.892 --> 00:32:04.516 But sometimes, disinformation is more weaponized. 00:32:04.919 --> 00:32:09.461 How do you combat those kinds of attacks, really? NOTE Paragraph 00:32:10.101 --> 00:32:12.783 AT: Right, so you mean malinformation, then. 00:32:12.807 --> 00:32:18.868 So essentially, information designed to cause intentional public harm. 00:32:18.892 --> 00:32:22.177 And that's no laughing matter. 00:32:22.201 --> 00:32:26.712 So for that, we have an idea called "notice and public notice." 00:32:26.736 --> 00:32:29.117 So this is a Reuters photo, 00:32:29.141 --> 00:32:31.355 and I will read the original caption. 00:32:31.379 --> 00:32:32.633 The original caption says 00:32:32.657 --> 00:32:35.972 "A teenage extradition bill protester in Hong Kong 00:32:35.996 --> 00:32:40.163 is seen during a march to demand democracy and political reform in Hong Kong." 00:32:40.187 --> 00:32:42.844 OK, a very neutral title by the Reuters. 00:32:42.868 --> 00:32:46.971 But there was a spreading of a malinformation 00:32:46.995 --> 00:32:48.849 back last November, 00:32:48.873 --> 00:32:50.904 just leading to our presidential election, 00:32:50.928 --> 00:32:53.014 that shows something else entirely. 00:32:53.038 --> 00:32:55.576 This is the same photo -- that says 00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:58.583 "This 13-year-old thug bought new iPhones, 00:32:58.607 --> 00:33:00.654 game consoles and brand-name sports shoes, 00:33:00.678 --> 00:33:03.393 and recruiting his brothers to murder police 00:33:03.417 --> 00:33:06.620 and collect 200,000 dollars." 00:33:06.644 --> 00:33:10.461 And this, of course, is a weapon designed to sow discord, 00:33:10.485 --> 00:33:15.895 and to elicit in Taiwan's voters a kind of distaste for Hong Kong. 00:33:15.919 --> 00:33:19.042 And because they know that this is the main issue. 00:33:19.066 --> 00:33:21.685 And had we resorted to takedowns, 00:33:21.709 --> 00:33:22.915 that will not work, 00:33:22.939 --> 00:33:25.090 because that would only evoke more outrage. 00:33:25.114 --> 00:33:26.545 So we didn't do a takedown. 00:33:26.569 --> 00:33:28.610 Instead, we worked with the fact checkers 00:33:28.634 --> 00:33:30.022 and professional journalists 00:33:30.046 --> 00:33:35.225 to attribute this original message back to the first day that it was posted. 00:33:35.249 --> 00:33:37.680 And it came from Zhongyang Zhengfawei. 00:33:37.704 --> 00:33:44.450 That is the main political and legal unit of the central party, 00:33:44.474 --> 00:33:46.656 in the Central Communist Party, in CCP. 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:52.053 And we know that it's their Weibo account that first did this new caption. 00:33:52.077 --> 00:33:54.252 So we sent out a public notice 00:33:54.276 --> 00:33:56.633 and with the partners in social media companies, 00:33:56.657 --> 00:33:58.181 pretty much all of them, 00:33:58.205 --> 00:34:00.939 they just put this very small reminder 00:34:00.963 --> 00:34:04.501 next to each time that this is shared with the wrong caption, 00:34:04.525 --> 00:34:08.461 that says "This actually came from the central propaganda unit 00:34:08.485 --> 00:34:09.674 of the CCP. 00:34:09.698 --> 00:34:12.594 Click here to learn more. To learn about the whole story." 00:34:12.618 --> 00:34:14.968 And that, we found, that has worked, 00:34:14.992 --> 00:34:18.536 because people understand this is then not a news material. 00:34:18.560 --> 00:34:22.115 This is rather an appropriation of Reuters' news material 00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:23.791 and a copyright infringement 00:34:23.815 --> 00:34:26.061 and I think that's part of the [unclear]. 00:34:26.085 --> 00:34:28.743 In any case, the point is that when people understand 00:34:28.767 --> 00:34:30.598 that this is an intentional narrative, 00:34:30.622 --> 00:34:32.550 they won't just randomly share it. 00:34:32.574 --> 00:34:35.137 They may share it, but with a comment that says 00:34:35.161 --> 00:34:40.539 "This is what the Zhongyang Zhengfawei is trying to do to our democracy." NOTE Paragraph 00:34:42.182 --> 00:34:46.474 DB: Seems like some of the global social media companies 00:34:46.498 --> 00:34:50.534 could learn something from notice and public notice. NOTE Paragraph 00:34:50.558 --> 00:34:52.156 AT: Public notice, that's right. NOTE Paragraph 00:34:52.180 --> 00:34:55.039 DB: What advice would you have 00:34:55.063 --> 00:35:00.376 for the Twitters and Facebooks and LINEs and WhatsApps, 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:02.734 and you name it, of the world? NOTE Paragraph 00:35:04.203 --> 00:35:05.386 AT: Yeah. 00:35:05.410 --> 00:35:08.656 So, just before our election, 00:35:08.680 --> 00:35:10.475 we said to all of them 00:35:10.499 --> 00:35:15.685 that we're not making a law to kind of punish them. 00:35:15.709 --> 00:35:18.764 However, we're sharing this very simple fact 00:35:18.788 --> 00:35:20.963 that there is this norm in Taiwan 00:35:20.987 --> 00:35:23.545 that we even have a separate branch of the government, 00:35:23.569 --> 00:35:24.768 the control branch, 00:35:24.792 --> 00:35:28.360 that published the campaign donation and expense. 00:35:28.384 --> 00:35:30.534 And it just so occurred to us 00:35:30.558 --> 00:35:33.931 that in the previous election, the mayoral one, 00:35:33.955 --> 00:35:35.352 there was a lot of candidates 00:35:35.376 --> 00:35:38.053 that did not include any social media advertisements 00:35:38.077 --> 00:35:40.099 in their expense to the Control Yuan. 00:35:40.123 --> 00:35:44.203 And so essentially, that means that there is a separate amount 00:35:44.227 --> 00:35:48.847 of political donation and expense that evades public scrutiny. 00:35:48.871 --> 00:35:51.066 And our Control Yuan published their numbers 00:35:51.090 --> 00:35:52.321 in raw data form, 00:35:52.345 --> 00:35:53.963 [unclear] they're not statistics, 00:35:53.987 --> 00:35:57.582 but individual records of who donated for what cause, 00:35:57.606 --> 00:35:58.757 when, where, 00:35:58.781 --> 00:36:01.243 and investigative journalists are very happy, 00:36:01.267 --> 00:36:03.839 because they can then make investigative reports 00:36:03.863 --> 00:36:06.131 about the connections between the candidates 00:36:06.155 --> 00:36:07.593 and the people who fund them. 00:36:07.617 --> 00:36:09.934 But they cannot work with the same material 00:36:09.958 --> 00:36:11.959 from the global social media companies. 00:36:11.983 --> 00:36:14.359 So I said, "Look, this is very simple. 00:36:14.383 --> 00:36:15.773 This is the social norm here, 00:36:15.797 --> 00:36:17.978 I don't really care about other jurisdictions. 00:36:18.002 --> 00:36:21.816 You either adhere to the social norm that is set by the Control Yuan 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.506 and the investigative journalists, 00:36:23.530 --> 00:36:25.895 or maybe you will face social sanctions. 00:36:25.919 --> 00:36:28.156 And this is not the government mandate, 00:36:28.180 --> 00:36:32.061 but it's the people fed up with, you know, black box, 00:36:32.085 --> 00:36:35.910 and that's part of the Sunflower Occupy's demands, also. 00:36:35.934 --> 00:36:39.871 And so Facebook actually published in the Ad Library, 00:36:39.895 --> 00:36:45.014 I think at that time, one of the fastest response strategies, 00:36:45.038 --> 00:36:51.058 where everybody who has basically any dark pattern advertisement 00:36:51.082 --> 00:36:52.931 will get revealed very quickly, 00:36:52.955 --> 00:36:56.399 and investigative journalists work with the local civic technologists 00:36:56.423 --> 00:37:01.227 to make sure that if anybody dare to use social media in such a divisive way, 00:37:01.251 --> 00:37:05.307 within an hour, there will be a report out condemning that. 00:37:05.331 --> 00:37:09.474 So nobody tried that during the previous presidential election season. NOTE Paragraph 00:37:09.498 --> 00:37:11.458 DB: So change is possible. NOTE Paragraph 00:37:12.196 --> 00:37:13.346 AT: Mhm. NOTE Paragraph 00:37:15.942 --> 00:37:18.911 WPR: Hey there, we have some more questions from the community. 00:37:18.935 --> 00:37:21.188 There is an anonymous one 00:37:21.212 --> 00:37:25.704 that says, "I believe Taiwan is outside WHO entirely 00:37:25.728 --> 00:37:28.786 and has a 130-part preparation program -- 00:37:28.810 --> 00:37:30.572 developed entirely on its own -- 00:37:30.596 --> 00:37:33.005 to what extent does it credit its preparation 00:37:33.029 --> 00:37:34.896 to building its own system?" NOTE Paragraph 00:37:36.168 --> 00:37:39.871 AT: Well, a little bit, I guess. 00:37:39.895 --> 00:37:42.905 We tried to warn the WHO, 00:37:42.929 --> 00:37:44.127 but at that point -- 00:37:44.151 --> 00:37:47.950 we are not totally outside, we have limited scientific access. 00:37:47.974 --> 00:37:50.529 But we do not have any ministerial access. 00:37:50.553 --> 00:37:52.180 And this is very different, right? 00:37:52.204 --> 00:37:54.768 If you only have limited scientific access, 00:37:54.792 --> 00:38:00.680 unless the other side's top epidemiologist happens to be the vice president, 00:38:00.704 --> 00:38:02.720 like in Taiwan's case, 00:38:02.744 --> 00:38:06.514 they don't always do the storytelling well enough 00:38:06.538 --> 00:38:10.570 to translate that into political action as our vice president did, right? 00:38:10.594 --> 00:38:13.124 So the lack of ministerial access, I think, 00:38:13.148 --> 00:38:16.020 is to the detriment of the global community, 00:38:16.044 --> 00:38:19.331 because otherwise, people could have responded as we did 00:38:19.355 --> 00:38:20.791 in the first day of January, 00:38:20.815 --> 00:38:24.012 instead of having to wait for weeks 00:38:24.036 --> 00:38:27.702 before the WHO declared that this is something, 00:38:27.726 --> 00:38:30.156 that there's definitely human to human transmission, 00:38:30.180 --> 00:38:32.845 that you should inspect people coming in from Wuhan, 00:38:32.869 --> 00:38:34.383 which they eventually did, 00:38:34.407 --> 00:38:37.624 but that's already two weeks or three weeks after what we did. NOTE Paragraph 00:38:40.247 --> 00:38:41.577 WPR: Makes a lot of sense. NOTE Paragraph 00:38:41.601 --> 00:38:45.014 DB: More scientists and technologists in politics. 00:38:45.038 --> 00:38:46.888 That sounds like that's the answer. NOTE Paragraph 00:38:47.228 --> 00:38:48.378 AT: Yeah. NOTE Paragraph 00:38:50.633 --> 00:38:54.212 WPR: And then we have another question here from Kamal Srinivasan 00:38:54.236 --> 00:38:55.768 about your reopening strategy. 00:38:55.792 --> 00:39:00.368 "How are you enabling restaurants and retailers to open safely in Taiwan?" NOTE Paragraph 00:39:00.974 --> 00:39:03.363 AT: Oh, they never closed, so ... (Laughs) NOTE Paragraph 00:39:03.387 --> 00:39:04.862 WPR: Oh! NOTE Paragraph 00:39:04.886 --> 00:39:06.236 AT: Yeah, they never closed, 00:39:06.260 --> 00:39:09.389 there was no lockdown, there was no closure. 00:39:09.413 --> 00:39:12.889 We just said a very simple thing in the CECC press conference, 00:39:12.913 --> 00:39:15.135 that there's going to be physical distancing. 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.215 You maintain one and a half meters indoors 00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:18.389 or wear a mask. 00:39:18.413 --> 00:39:19.594 And that's it. 00:39:19.618 --> 00:39:24.275 And so there are some restaurants that put up, I guess, red curtains, 00:39:24.299 --> 00:39:28.627 some put very cute teddy bears and so on, on the chairs, 00:39:28.651 --> 00:39:30.982 to make sure that people spread evenly, 00:39:31.006 --> 00:39:37.240 some installed see-through glass or plastic walls 00:39:37.264 --> 00:39:38.662 between the seats. 00:39:38.686 --> 00:39:41.899 There's various social innovations happening around. 00:39:41.923 --> 00:39:46.515 And I think the only shops that got closed for a while, 00:39:46.539 --> 00:39:51.484 because they could not innovate quick enough to respond to these rules, 00:39:51.508 --> 00:39:54.277 was the intimate escort bars. 00:39:54.301 --> 00:39:57.757 But eventually, even they invented new ways, 00:39:57.781 --> 00:40:02.384 by handing out these caps that are plastic shielding, 00:40:02.408 --> 00:40:05.749 but still leaves room for drinking behind it. 00:40:05.773 --> 00:40:08.461 And so they opened with that social innovation. NOTE Paragraph 00:40:10.479 --> 00:40:12.162 DB: That's amazing. NOTE Paragraph 00:40:12.186 --> 00:40:16.692 WPR: It is, yeah, it's a lot to learn from your strategies there. 00:40:16.716 --> 00:40:20.791 Thank you, I'll be back towards the end with some final questions. NOTE Paragraph 00:40:22.002 --> 00:40:25.867 DB: I'm very happy to hear that the restaurants were not closed down, 00:40:25.891 --> 00:40:30.275 because I think Taipei has some of the best food in the world 00:40:30.299 --> 00:40:33.329 of any city that I've visited, 00:40:33.353 --> 00:40:36.517 so, you know, kudos to you for that. 00:40:38.252 --> 00:40:44.791 So the big concern when it comes to using digital tools for COVID 00:40:44.815 --> 00:40:47.153 or using digital tools for democracy 00:40:47.177 --> 00:40:49.651 is always privacy. 00:40:49.675 --> 00:40:52.985 You've talked about that a little bit, 00:40:53.009 --> 00:40:56.543 but I'm sure the citizens of Taiwan 00:40:56.567 --> 00:40:59.295 are perhaps equally concerned about their privacy, 00:40:59.319 --> 00:41:02.483 especially given the geopolitical context. NOTE Paragraph 00:41:02.507 --> 00:41:03.663 AT: Definitely. NOTE Paragraph 00:41:03.687 --> 00:41:05.749 DB: So how do you cope with those demands? NOTE Paragraph 00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:13.060 AT: Yeah, we design with not only defensive strategy, 00:41:13.084 --> 00:41:15.498 like minimization of data collection, 00:41:15.522 --> 00:41:17.977 but also proactive measures, 00:41:18.001 --> 00:41:20.522 such as privacy-enhancing technologies. 00:41:20.546 --> 00:41:23.740 One of the top teams that emerged out of our cohack, 00:41:23.764 --> 00:41:27.352 the TW response from the Polis, 00:41:27.376 --> 00:41:30.264 how to make contact tracing easier, 00:41:30.288 --> 00:41:32.328 focused not on the contact tracers, 00:41:32.352 --> 00:41:35.213 not on the medical officers, but on the person. 00:41:35.237 --> 00:41:37.530 So they basically said, "OK, you have a phone, 00:41:37.554 --> 00:41:39.620 you can record your temperatures, 00:41:39.644 --> 00:41:42.847 you can record your whereabouts and things like that, 00:41:42.871 --> 00:41:44.974 but that is strictly in your phone. 00:41:44.998 --> 00:41:46.529 It doesn't even use Bluetooth. 00:41:46.553 --> 00:41:47.887 So there's no transmission. 00:41:48.229 --> 00:41:49.776 Technology uses open-source, 00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:52.331 you can check it, you can use it in airplane mode. 00:41:52.355 --> 00:41:54.903 And when the contact tracer eventually tells you 00:41:54.927 --> 00:41:56.974 that you are part of a high-risk group, 00:41:56.998 --> 00:41:59.323 and they really want your contact history, 00:41:59.347 --> 00:42:02.553 this tool can then generate a single-use URL 00:42:02.577 --> 00:42:06.358 that only contains the precise information, 00:42:06.382 --> 00:42:07.564 anonymized, 00:42:07.588 --> 00:42:09.228 that the contact tracers want. 00:42:09.252 --> 00:42:12.522 But it will not, like in a traditional interview, 00:42:12.546 --> 00:42:14.313 let you ask -- 00:42:14.337 --> 00:42:17.799 they ask a question, they only want to know your whereabouts, 00:42:17.823 --> 00:42:19.665 but you answer with such accuracy 00:42:19.689 --> 00:42:22.609 that you end up compromising other people's privacy. 00:42:22.633 --> 00:42:25.225 So basically, this is about designing 00:42:25.249 --> 00:42:28.600 with an aim to enhance other people's privacy, 00:42:28.624 --> 00:42:31.617 because personal data is never truly personal. 00:42:31.641 --> 00:42:34.403 It's always social, it's always intersectional. 00:42:34.427 --> 00:42:36.907 If I take a selfie at a party, 00:42:36.931 --> 00:42:40.616 I inadvertently also take pretty much everybody else's 00:42:40.640 --> 00:42:44.283 who are in the picture, the surroundings, the ambiance, and so on, 00:42:44.307 --> 00:42:47.634 and if I upload it to a cloud service, 00:42:47.658 --> 00:42:50.691 then I actually decimate the bargaining power, 00:42:50.715 --> 00:42:53.304 the negotiation power of everybody around me, 00:42:53.328 --> 00:42:56.174 because then their data is part of the cloud, 00:42:56.198 --> 00:42:58.315 and the cloud doesn't have to compensate them 00:42:58.339 --> 00:42:59.928 or get their agreement for it. 00:42:59.952 --> 00:43:02.204 And so only by designing the tools 00:43:02.228 --> 00:43:05.617 with privacy enhancing as a positive value, 00:43:05.641 --> 00:43:08.323 and not enhancing only the person's own privacy, 00:43:08.347 --> 00:43:10.392 just like a medical mask, it protects you, 00:43:10.416 --> 00:43:12.498 but mostly it also protects others, right? 00:43:12.522 --> 00:43:15.823 So if we design tools using that idea, 00:43:15.847 --> 00:43:19.291 and always open-source and with an open API, 00:43:19.315 --> 00:43:21.029 then we're in a much better shape 00:43:21.053 --> 00:43:25.339 than in centralized or so-called cloud-based services. NOTE Paragraph 00:43:27.656 --> 00:43:30.370 DB: Well, you're clearly living in the future, 00:43:30.394 --> 00:43:33.371 and I guess that's quite literal, 00:43:33.395 --> 00:43:35.521 in the sense of, it's tomorrow morning there. NOTE Paragraph 00:43:35.545 --> 00:43:36.704 AT: Twelve hours. NOTE Paragraph 00:43:36.728 --> 00:43:37.878 DB: Yes. 00:43:38.657 --> 00:43:41.585 Tell me, what do you see in the future? 00:43:41.609 --> 00:43:43.353 What comes next? NOTE Paragraph 00:43:44.926 --> 00:43:49.001 AT: Yes, so I see the coronavirus as a great amplifier. 00:43:49.025 --> 00:43:53.390 If you start with an authoritarian society, 00:43:53.414 --> 00:43:55.974 the coronavirus, with all its lockdowns and so on, 00:43:55.998 --> 00:44:00.807 has the potential of making it even a more totalitarian society. 00:44:00.831 --> 00:44:03.022 If people place their trust, however, 00:44:03.046 --> 00:44:04.236 on the social sector, 00:44:04.260 --> 00:44:07.212 on the ingenuity of social innovators, 00:44:07.236 --> 00:44:09.164 then the pandemic, as in Taiwan, 00:44:09.188 --> 00:44:11.400 actually strengthens our democracy, 00:44:11.424 --> 00:44:14.728 so that people feel, truly, that everybody can think of something 00:44:14.752 --> 00:44:18.294 that improves the welfare of not just Taiwan, 00:44:18.318 --> 00:44:21.322 but pretty much everybody else in the world. 00:44:21.346 --> 00:44:22.791 And so, my point here 00:44:22.815 --> 00:44:27.577 is that the great amplifier comes if no matter you want it or not, 00:44:27.601 --> 00:44:32.210 but the society, what they can do, is do what Taiwan did after SARS. 00:44:32.234 --> 00:44:34.702 In 2003, when SARS came, 00:44:34.726 --> 00:44:36.917 we had to shut down an entire hospital, 00:44:36.941 --> 00:44:40.845 barricading it with no definite termination date. 00:44:40.869 --> 00:44:42.323 It was very traumatic, 00:44:42.347 --> 00:44:45.879 everybody above the age of 30 remembers how traumatic it was. 00:44:45.903 --> 00:44:47.102 The municipalities 00:44:47.126 --> 00:44:50.020 and the central government were saying very different things, 00:44:50.044 --> 00:44:51.871 and that is why after SARS, 00:44:51.895 --> 00:44:54.998 the constitutional courts charged the legislature 00:44:55.022 --> 00:44:57.450 to set up the system as you see today, 00:44:57.474 --> 00:44:58.831 and also that is why, 00:44:58.855 --> 00:45:02.117 when people responding to that crisis back in 2003 00:45:02.141 --> 00:45:06.347 built this very robust response system that there's early drills. 00:45:06.371 --> 00:45:08.569 So just as the Sunflower Occupy, 00:45:08.593 --> 00:45:13.418 because of the crisis in trust let us build new tools 00:45:13.442 --> 00:45:15.276 that put trust first, 00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:19.998 I think the coronavirus is the chance for everybody who have survived 00:45:20.022 --> 00:45:21.183 through the first wave 00:45:21.207 --> 00:45:26.529 to settle on a new set of norms that will reinforce your founding values, 00:45:26.553 --> 00:45:30.596 instead of taking on alien values in the name of survival. NOTE Paragraph 00:45:32.704 --> 00:45:34.812 DB: Yeah, let's hope so, 00:45:34.836 --> 00:45:40.348 and let's hope the rest of the world is as prepared as Taiwan 00:45:40.372 --> 00:45:42.609 the next time around. 00:45:42.633 --> 00:45:46.109 When it comes to digital democracy, though, 00:45:46.133 --> 00:45:47.617 and digital citizenship, 00:45:47.641 --> 00:45:49.649 where do you see that going, 00:45:49.673 --> 00:45:52.289 both in Taiwan and maybe in the rest of the world? NOTE Paragraph 00:45:53.108 --> 00:45:56.139 AT: Well, I have my job description here, 00:45:56.163 --> 00:45:57.474 which I will read to you. 00:45:57.498 --> 00:46:00.875 It's literally my job description and the answer to that question. 00:46:00.899 --> 00:46:02.049 And so, here goes. 00:46:02.474 --> 00:46:04.982 When we see the internet of things, 00:46:05.006 --> 00:46:07.206 let's make it the internet of beings. 00:46:07.657 --> 00:46:09.847 When we see virtual reality, 00:46:09.871 --> 00:46:12.093 let's make it a shared reality. 00:46:12.728 --> 00:46:14.831 When we see machine learning, 00:46:14.855 --> 00:46:17.322 let's make it collaborative learning. 00:46:17.758 --> 00:46:20.432 When we see user experience, 00:46:20.456 --> 00:46:23.019 let's make it about human experience. 00:46:23.361 --> 00:46:26.369 And whenever we hear the singularity is near, 00:46:26.393 --> 00:46:28.133 let us always remember 00:46:28.157 --> 00:46:30.228 the plurality is here. 00:46:30.942 --> 00:46:32.542 Thank you for listening. NOTE Paragraph 00:46:33.379 --> 00:46:34.680 DB: Wow. 00:46:34.704 --> 00:46:36.729 I have to give that a little clap, 00:46:36.753 --> 00:46:38.020 that was beautiful. NOTE Paragraph 00:46:38.625 --> 00:46:39.775 (Laughs) NOTE Paragraph 00:46:40.243 --> 00:46:41.625 Quite a job description too. 00:46:41.649 --> 00:46:43.692 So, conservative anarchist, 00:46:43.716 --> 00:46:47.032 digital minister, and with that job description -- 00:46:47.056 --> 00:46:48.289 that's pretty impressive. NOTE Paragraph 00:46:48.313 --> 00:46:49.913 AT: A poetician, yes. NOTE Paragraph 00:46:50.279 --> 00:46:52.223 DB (Laughs) 00:46:52.858 --> 00:46:57.527 So I struggle to imagine 00:46:57.551 --> 00:47:01.011 an adoption of these techniques in the US, 00:47:01.035 --> 00:47:04.874 and that may be my pessimism weighing in. 00:47:04.898 --> 00:47:09.815 But what words of hope do you have for the US, as we cope with COVID? NOTE Paragraph 00:47:11.701 --> 00:47:15.462 AT: Well, as I mentioned, during SARS in Taiwan, 00:47:15.486 --> 00:47:20.099 nobody imagined we could have CECC and a cute spokesdog. 00:47:20.123 --> 00:47:22.896 Before the Sunflower movement, during a large protest, 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:27.260 there was, I think, half a million people on the street, and many more. 00:47:27.284 --> 00:47:31.406 Nobody thought that we could have a collective intelligence system 00:47:31.430 --> 00:47:34.200 that puts open government data 00:47:34.224 --> 00:47:36.994 as a way to rebuild citizen participation. 00:47:37.018 --> 00:47:38.993 And so, never lose hope. 00:47:39.017 --> 00:47:44.631 As my favorite singer, Leonard Cohen -- a poet, also -- is fond of saying, 00:47:44.655 --> 00:47:46.345 "Ring the bells that still can ring 00:47:46.369 --> 00:47:49.004 and forget any perfect offering. 00:47:49.028 --> 00:47:53.353 There is a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in." NOTE Paragraph 00:47:55.149 --> 00:47:56.299 WPR: Wow. NOTE Paragraph 00:47:57.320 --> 00:47:58.527 WPR: That's so beautiful, 00:47:58.551 --> 00:48:02.447 and it feels like such a great message to, sort of, leave the audience with, 00:48:02.471 --> 00:48:03.767 and sharing the sentiment 00:48:03.791 --> 00:48:07.475 that everyone seems to be so grateful for what you've shared, Audrey, 00:48:07.499 --> 00:48:13.355 and all the great information and insight into Taiwan's strategies. NOTE Paragraph 00:48:14.502 --> 00:48:15.653 AT: Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:48:15.677 --> 00:48:16.827 WPR: And David -- NOTE Paragraph 00:48:17.661 --> 00:48:20.312 DB: I was just going to say, thank you so much for that, 00:48:20.336 --> 00:48:22.462 thank you for that beautiful job description, 00:48:22.486 --> 00:48:26.746 and for all the wisdom you shared in rapid-fire fashion. 00:48:26.770 --> 00:48:29.922 I think it wasn't just one idea that you shared, 00:48:29.946 --> 00:48:32.926 but maybe, I don't know, 20, 30, 40? 00:48:32.950 --> 00:48:34.750 I lost count at some point. NOTE Paragraph 00:48:35.855 --> 00:48:37.958 AT: Well, it's called Ideas Worth Spreading, 00:48:37.982 --> 00:48:39.259 it's a plural form. NOTE Paragraph 00:48:39.283 --> 00:48:41.000 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:48:41.363 --> 00:48:42.514 DB: Very true. 00:48:42.538 --> 00:48:45.230 Well, thank you so much for joining us. NOTE Paragraph 00:48:45.254 --> 00:48:46.405 WPR: Thank you, Audrey. NOTE Paragraph 00:48:46.429 --> 00:48:48.355 DB: And I wish you luck with everything. NOTE Paragraph 00:48:48.857 --> 00:48:51.225 AT: Thank you, and have a good local time. 00:48:51.249 --> 00:48:52.399 Stay safe.