0:00:00.556,0:00:02.572 Audrey Tang: Very happy to be joining you, 0:00:02.596,0:00:04.362 and good local time, everyone. 0:00:06.135,0:00:08.402 David Biello: So, tell us about -- 0:00:08.960,0:00:10.110 Sorry to -- 0:00:10.420,0:00:12.890 Tell us about digital tools and COVID. 0:00:14.196,0:00:15.347 AT: Sure. 0:00:15.371,0:00:17.738 Yeah, I'm really happy to share with you 0:00:17.762,0:00:20.542 how Taiwan successfully[br]countered the COVID 0:00:20.566,0:00:23.402 using the power[br]of digital democracy tools. 0:00:24.101,0:00:27.728 As we know, democracy improves[br]as more people participate. 0:00:27.752,0:00:32.245 And digital technology remains one[br]of the best ways to improve participation, 0:00:32.269,0:00:34.658 as long as the focus[br]is on finding common ground, 0:00:34.682,0:00:38.785 that is to say, prosocial media[br]instead of antisocial media. 0:00:38.809,0:00:42.490 And there's three key ideas[br]that I would like to share today 0:00:42.514,0:00:46.863 about digital democracy[br]that is fast, fair and fun. 0:00:48.277,0:00:50.283 First about the fast part. 0:00:50.307,0:00:54.021 Whereas many jurisdictions began[br]countering coronavirus only this year, 0:00:54.045,0:00:55.871 Taiwan started last year. 0:00:55.895,0:00:59.569 Last December, when Dr. Li Wenliang,[br]the PRC whistleblower, 0:00:59.593,0:01:02.307 posted that there are new SARS cases, 0:01:02.331,0:01:04.609 he got inquiries[br]and eventually punishments 0:01:04.633,0:01:06.648 from PRC police institutions. 0:01:06.958,0:01:08.108 But at the same time, 0:01:08.132,0:01:11.069 the Taiwan equivalent[br]of Reddit, the Ptt board, 0:01:11.093,0:01:12.926 has someone called Nomorepipe 0:01:12.950,0:01:15.744 reposting Dr. Li Wenliang's[br]whistleblowing. 0:01:15.768,0:01:18.733 And our medical officers[br]immediately noticed this post, 0:01:18.757,0:01:20.312 and issued an order that says 0:01:20.336,0:01:23.018 all passengers flying in[br]from Wuhan to Taiwan 0:01:23.042,0:01:25.487 need to start health inspections[br]the very next day, 0:01:25.511,0:01:27.574 which is the first day of January. 0:01:27.598,0:01:29.450 And this says to me two things. 0:01:29.474,0:01:31.983 First, the civil society[br]trusts the government enough 0:01:32.007,0:01:34.974 to talk about possible[br]new SARS outbreaks in the public forum. 0:01:34.998,0:01:36.965 And the government trusts citizens enough 0:01:36.989,0:01:40.220 to take it seriously, and treat it[br]as if SARS has happened again, 0:01:40.244,0:01:43.514 something we've always[br]been preparing for, since 2003. 0:01:43.538,0:01:45.895 And because of this open civil society, 0:01:45.919,0:01:49.783 according to the CIVICUS Monitor[br]after the Sunflower Occupy, 0:01:49.807,0:01:52.970 Taiwan is now the most open society[br]in the whole of Asia. 0:01:52.994,0:01:55.800 We enjoy the same freedom[br]of speech, of assembly, 0:01:55.824,0:01:58.291 [unclear] as other liberal democracies, 0:01:58.315,0:02:00.522 but with the emphasis[br]on keeping an open mind 0:02:00.546,0:02:03.395 to novel ideas from the society. 0:02:03.419,0:02:06.919 And that is why our schools[br]and businesses still remain open today, 0:02:06.943,0:02:08.172 there was no lockdown, 0:02:08.196,0:02:10.751 it's been a month[br]with no local confirmed cases. 0:02:11.513,0:02:12.663 So the fast part. 0:02:12.997,0:02:16.268 Every day, our Central Epidemic[br]Command Center, or CECC, 0:02:16.292,0:02:18.935 holds a press conference,[br]which is always livestreamed, 0:02:18.959,0:02:20.602 and we work with the journalists, 0:02:20.626,0:02:23.037 they answer all the questions[br]from the journalists, 0:02:23.061,0:02:26.149 and whenever there's a new idea[br]coming in from the social sector, 0:02:26.173,0:02:28.299 anyone can pick up[br]their phone and call 1922 0:02:28.323,0:02:30.458 and tell that idea to the CECC. 0:02:30.482,0:02:32.752 For example, there was one day in April 0:02:32.776,0:02:35.744 where a young boy has said[br]he doesn't want to go to school 0:02:35.768,0:02:37.728 because his school mates may laugh at him 0:02:37.752,0:02:40.458 because all he had is a pink medical mask. 0:02:40.482,0:02:41.657 The very next day, 0:02:41.681,0:02:45.672 everybody in the CECC press conference[br]started wearing pink medical masks, 0:02:45.696,0:02:48.630 making sure that everybody learns[br]about gender mainstreaming. 0:02:48.654,0:02:50.670 And so this kind of rapid response system 0:02:50.694,0:02:53.704 builds trust between the government[br]and the civil society. 0:02:53.728,0:02:55.569 And the second focus is fairness. 0:02:55.593,0:02:58.729 Making sure everybody can use[br]their national health insurance card 0:02:58.753,0:03:00.696 to collect masks from nearby pharmacies, 0:03:00.720,0:03:04.291 not only do we publish the stock level[br]of masks of all pharmacies, 0:03:04.315,0:03:05.481 6,000 of them, 0:03:05.505,0:03:08.077 we publish it every 30 seconds. 0:03:08.101,0:03:12.092 That's why our civic hackers,[br]our civil engineers in the digital space, 0:03:12.116,0:03:16.250 built more than 100 tools[br]that enable people to view a map, 0:03:16.274,0:03:20.156 or people with blindness[br]who talk to chat bots, voice assistants, 0:03:20.180,0:03:23.297 all of them can get the same[br]inclusive access to information 0:03:23.321,0:03:26.051 about which pharmacies near them[br]still have masks. 0:03:26.075,0:03:28.789 And because the national[br]health insurance single payer 0:03:28.813,0:03:31.980 is more than 99,9 percent[br]of health coverage, 0:03:32.004,0:03:33.458 people who show any symptoms 0:03:33.482,0:03:35.641 will then be able to take[br]the medical mask, 0:03:35.665,0:03:36.950 go to a local clinic, 0:03:36.974,0:03:39.205 knowing fully that they will[br]get treated fairly 0:03:39.229,0:03:41.267 without incurring any financial burden. 0:03:41.291,0:03:42.934 And so people designed a dashboard 0:03:42.958,0:03:45.498 that lets everybody see[br]our supply is indeed growing, 0:03:45.522,0:03:47.752 and whether there's over- or undersupply, 0:03:47.776,0:03:50.315 so that we codesign[br]this distribution system 0:03:50.339,0:03:52.760 with the pharmacies,[br]with the whole of society. 0:03:52.784,0:03:54.783 So based on this analysis, 0:03:54.807,0:03:58.677 we show that there was[br]a peak at 70 percent, 0:03:58.701,0:04:02.955 and that remaining 20 percent of people[br]were often young, work very long hours, 0:04:02.979,0:04:05.917 when they go off work,[br]the pharmacies also went off work, 0:04:05.941,0:04:08.184 and so we work with convenience stores 0:04:08.208,0:04:10.520 so that everybody can collect[br]their mask anytime, 0:04:10.544,0:04:11.955 24 hours a day. 0:04:11.979,0:04:13.737 So we ensure fairness of all kinds, 0:04:13.761,0:04:16.561 based on the digital democracy's feedback. 0:04:17.074,0:04:20.680 And finally, I would like to acknowledge[br]that this is a very stressful time. 0:04:20.704,0:04:22.998 People feel anxious, outraged, 0:04:23.022,0:04:24.467 there's a lot of panic buying, 0:04:24.491,0:04:27.315 a lot of conspiracy theories[br]in all economies. 0:04:27.339,0:04:28.512 And in Taiwan, 0:04:28.536,0:04:31.330 our counter-this-information[br]strategy is very simple. 0:04:31.354,0:04:33.866 It's called "humor over rumor." 0:04:34.196,0:04:37.220 So when there was a panic buying[br]of toilet paper, for example, 0:04:37.244,0:04:38.680 there was a rumor that says, 0:04:38.704,0:04:40.537 "Oh, we're ramping up mass production, 0:04:40.561,0:04:42.474 it's the same material as tissue papers, 0:04:42.498,0:04:44.879 and so we'll run out[br]of tissue paper soon." 0:04:44.903,0:04:48.868 And our premier showed[br]a very memetic picture 0:04:48.892,0:04:50.727 that I simply have to share with you. 0:04:50.751,0:04:52.116 In very large print, 0:04:52.140,0:04:54.623 he shows his bottom, 0:04:54.647,0:04:56.839 wiggling it a little bit, 0:04:56.863,0:04:58.887 and then the large print says 0:04:58.911,0:05:01.707 "Each of us only have[br]one pair of buttocks." 0:05:01.731,0:05:04.744 And of course, the serious table shows 0:05:04.768,0:05:07.704 that tissue paper came[br]from South American materials, 0:05:07.728,0:05:09.950 and medical masks[br]come from domestic materials, 0:05:09.974,0:05:12.418 and there's no way that ramping up[br]production of one 0:05:12.442,0:05:14.791 will hurt the production of the other. 0:05:14.815,0:05:16.847 And so that went absolutely viral. 0:05:16.871,0:05:19.228 And because of that,[br]the panic buying died down 0:05:19.252,0:05:20.688 in a day or two. 0:05:20.712,0:05:24.332 And finally, we found out the person[br]who spread the rumor in the first place 0:05:24.356,0:05:25.791 was the tissue-paper reseller. 0:05:25.815,0:05:28.553 And this is not just[br]a single shock point in social media. 0:05:28.577,0:05:29.734 Every single day, 0:05:29.758,0:05:31.776 the daily press conference gets translated 0:05:31.800,0:05:34.455 by the spokesdog of the Ministry[br]of Health and Welfare, 0:05:34.479,0:05:36.658 that translated a lot of things. 0:05:36.682,0:05:40.609 For example, our physical distancing[br]is phrased as saying 0:05:40.633,0:05:43.730 "If you are outdoor,[br]you need to keep two dog-lengths away, 0:05:43.754,0:05:46.794 if you are indoor,[br]three dog-lengths away," and so on. 0:05:46.818,0:05:48.863 And hand sanitation rules, and so on. 0:05:48.887,0:05:50.712 So because all this goes viral, 0:05:50.736,0:05:54.029 we make sure that the factual humor[br]spreads faster than rumor. 0:05:54.053,0:05:56.651 And they serve as a vaccine,[br]as inoculation, 0:05:56.675,0:05:58.958 so that when people see[br]the conspiracy theories, 0:05:58.982,0:06:01.093 the R0 value of that will be below one, 0:06:01.117,0:06:03.919 meaning that those ideas will not spread. 0:06:03.943,0:06:06.610 And so I only have[br]this five-minute briefing, 0:06:06.634,0:06:09.078 the rest of it will be driven[br]by your Q and A, 0:06:09.102,0:06:10.713 but please feel free to read more 0:06:10.737,0:06:13.421 about Taiwan's[br]counter-coronavirus strategy, 0:06:13.445,0:06:15.164 at taiwancanhelp.us. 0:06:15.188,0:06:16.338 Thank you. 0:06:19.109,0:06:20.783 DB: That's incredible. 0:06:20.807,0:06:25.233 And I love this "humor versus rumor." 0:06:26.219,0:06:28.242 The problem here in the US, perhaps, 0:06:28.266,0:06:33.415 is that the rumors seem to travel[br]faster than any response, 0:06:33.439,0:06:34.645 whether humorous or not. 0:06:34.669,0:06:38.334 How do you defeat that aspect in Taiwan? 0:06:39.527,0:06:41.670 AT: Yeah, we found that, of course, 0:06:41.694,0:06:45.340 humor implicitly means[br]there is a sublimation 0:06:45.364,0:06:48.934 of upsetness, of outrage. 0:06:48.958,0:06:52.934 And so as you see, for example,[br]in our premier's example, 0:06:52.958,0:06:55.029 he makes fun of himself. 0:06:55.053,0:06:58.849 He doesn't make a joke[br]at the expense of other people. 0:06:58.873,0:07:00.357 And this was the key. 0:07:00.381,0:07:02.286 Because people think it hilarious, 0:07:02.310,0:07:03.460 they share it, 0:07:03.484,0:07:06.428 but with no malicious or toxic intentions. 0:07:06.452,0:07:08.378 People remember the actual payload, 0:07:08.402,0:07:11.355 that table about materials[br]used to produce masks, 0:07:11.379,0:07:12.550 much more easily. 0:07:12.574,0:07:16.930 If they make a joke[br]that excludes parts of the society, 0:07:16.954,0:07:19.550 of course, that part of society[br]will feel outraged 0:07:19.574,0:07:21.907 and we will end up[br]creating more divisiveness, 0:07:21.931,0:07:24.074 rather than prosocial behavior. 0:07:24.098,0:07:27.410 So the humor at no expense, 0:07:27.434,0:07:30.144 not excluding any part of society, 0:07:30.168,0:07:31.835 I think that was the key. 0:07:33.847,0:07:35.044 DB: It's also incredible 0:07:35.068,0:07:40.854 because Taiwan has such close ties[br]to the origin point of this. 0:07:40.878,0:07:42.045 AT: PRC, yes. 0:07:42.069,0:07:43.235 DB: The mainland. 0:07:43.259,0:07:47.204 So given those close economic ties, 0:07:47.228,0:07:51.021 how do you survive[br]that kind of disruption? 0:07:52.919,0:07:56.425 AT: Yeah, I mean, at this moment, 0:07:56.449,0:07:59.887 it's been almost a month now[br]with no local confirmed cases, 0:07:59.911,0:08:01.141 so we're doing fine. 0:08:01.165,0:08:02.832 And what we are doing, essentially, 0:08:02.856,0:08:06.641 is just to respond faster[br]than pretty much anyone. 0:08:06.665,0:08:09.260 We started responding last year, 0:08:09.284,0:08:12.624 whereas pretty much everybody else[br]started responding this year. 0:08:12.648,0:08:15.909 We tried to warn the world[br]last year, but, anyway. 0:08:15.933,0:08:17.086 So in any case, 0:08:17.110,0:08:19.848 the point here is[br]that if you start early enough, 0:08:19.872,0:08:23.355 you get to make sure[br]that the border control 0:08:23.379,0:08:28.823 is the main point where you quarantine[br]all the returning residents and so on, 0:08:28.847,0:08:31.786 instead of waiting until[br]the community spread stage, 0:08:31.810,0:08:35.672 where even more human-right[br]invading techniques 0:08:35.696,0:08:38.402 would probably have to be deployed[br]one way or the other. 0:08:38.426,0:08:41.682 And so in Taiwan, we've not declared[br]an emergency situation. 0:08:41.706,0:08:44.285 We're firmly under the constitutional law. 0:08:44.309,0:08:47.095 Because of that, every measure[br]the administration is taking 0:08:47.119,0:08:49.609 is also applicable[br]in non-coronavirus times. 0:08:49.633,0:08:51.704 And this forces us to innovate. 0:08:51.728,0:08:55.992 Much as the idea of[br]"we are an open liberal democracy" 0:08:56.016,0:08:58.318 prevented us from doing takedowns. 0:08:58.342,0:09:01.532 And therefore, we have to innovate[br]of humor versus rumor, 0:09:01.556,0:09:04.268 because the easy path,[br]the takedown of online speech, 0:09:04.292,0:09:06.283 is not accessible to us. 0:09:06.307,0:09:09.481 Our design criteria,[br]which is no lockdowns, 0:09:09.505,0:09:13.132 also prevented us[br]from doing any, you know, 0:09:13.156,0:09:16.507 very invasive privacy encroaching[br]response system. 0:09:16.531,0:09:18.389 So we have to innovate at the border, 0:09:18.413,0:09:21.396 and make sure that we have[br]a sufficient number of, for example, 0:09:21.420,0:09:23.872 quarantine hotels[br]or the so-called "digital fences," 0:09:23.896,0:09:28.529 where your phone is basically connected[br]to the nearby telecoms, 0:09:28.553,0:09:33.347 and they make sure that if they go out[br]of the 15-meter or so radius, 0:09:33.371,0:09:38.114 an SMS is sent to the local[br]household managers or police and so on. 0:09:38.138,0:09:41.052 But because we focus[br]all these measures at the border, 0:09:41.076,0:09:43.686 the vast majority of people[br]live a normal life. 0:09:45.267,0:09:47.130 DB: Let's talk about that a little bit. 0:09:47.154,0:09:49.497 So walk me through the digital tools 0:09:49.521,0:09:52.219 and how they were applied to COVID. 0:09:53.196,0:09:54.362 AT: Yes. 0:09:54.386,0:09:57.791 So there's three parts[br]that I just outlined. 0:09:57.815,0:10:00.887 The first one is the collective[br]intelligence system. 0:10:00.911,0:10:02.402 Through online spaces 0:10:02.426,0:10:06.387 that we design to be devoid[br]of Reply buttons, 0:10:06.411,0:10:09.228 because we see that,[br]when there's Reply buttons, 0:10:09.252,0:10:13.448 people focus on each other's[br]face part, not the book part, 0:10:13.472,0:10:15.006 and without "Reply" buttons, 0:10:15.030,0:10:17.085 you can get collective intelligence 0:10:17.109,0:10:22.156 working out their rough consensus[br]of where the direction is going 0:10:22.180,0:10:23.783 with the response strategies. 0:10:23.807,0:10:25.656 So we use a lot of new technologies, 0:10:25.680,0:10:26.831 such as Polis, 0:10:26.855,0:10:30.473 which is essentially a forum[br]that lets you upvote and downvote 0:10:30.497,0:10:32.934 each other's feelings, 0:10:32.958,0:10:34.926 but with real-time clustering, 0:10:34.950,0:10:37.641 so that if you go to cohack.tw, 0:10:37.665,0:10:39.732 you see six such conversations, 0:10:39.756,0:10:42.721 talking about how to protect[br]the most vulnerable people, 0:10:42.745,0:10:44.348 how to make a smooth transition, 0:10:44.372,0:10:47.815 how to make a fair[br]distribution of supplies and so on. 0:10:47.839,0:10:50.299 And people are free to voice their ideas, 0:10:50.323,0:10:52.625 and upvote and downvote[br]each other's ideas. 0:10:52.649,0:10:56.434 But the trick is that we show people[br]the main divisive points, 0:10:56.458,0:10:57.958 and the main consensual points, 0:10:57.982,0:11:00.276 and we respond only to the ideas 0:11:00.300,0:11:03.053 that can convince[br]all the different opinion groups. 0:11:03.077,0:11:07.017 So people are encouraged[br]to post more eclectic, more nuanced ideas 0:11:07.041,0:11:10.326 and they discover,[br]at the end of this consultation, 0:11:10.350,0:11:12.684 that everybody, actually,[br]agrees with most things, 0:11:12.708,0:11:15.406 with most of their neighbors[br]on most of the issues. 0:11:15.430,0:11:17.895 And that is what we call[br]the social mandate, 0:11:17.919,0:11:19.339 or the democratic mandate, 0:11:19.363,0:11:23.299 that then informs our development[br]of the counter-coronavirus strategy 0:11:23.323,0:11:25.911 and helping the world with such tools. 0:11:25.935,0:11:27.397 And so this is the first part, 0:11:27.421,0:11:30.476 it's called listening at scale[br]for rough consensus. 0:11:30.500,0:11:34.040 The second part I already covered[br]is the distribute ledger, 0:11:34.064,0:11:36.306 where everybody can go[br]to a nearby pharmacy, 0:11:36.330,0:11:40.029 present their NHI card,[br]buy nine masks, or 10 if you're a child, 0:11:40.053,0:11:43.323 and see the stock level[br]of that pharmacy on their phone 0:11:43.347,0:11:47.029 actually decreasing by nine or 10[br]in a couple of minutes. 0:11:47.053,0:11:49.141 And if they grow by nine or 10, 0:11:49.165,0:11:50.653 of course, you call the 1922, 0:11:50.677,0:11:52.887 and report something fishy is going on. 0:11:52.911,0:11:55.241 But this is participatory accountability. 0:11:55.265,0:11:56.998 This is published every 30 seconds. 0:11:57.022,0:11:59.069 So everybody holds each other accountable, 0:11:59.093,0:12:01.196 and that massively increases trust. 0:12:01.220,0:12:04.557 And finally, the third one,[br]the humor versus rumor, 0:12:04.581,0:12:07.403 I think the important thing to see here 0:12:07.427,0:12:10.967 is that wherever there's a trending[br]disinformation or conspiracy theory, 0:12:10.991,0:12:13.410 you respond to it with a humorous package 0:12:13.434,0:12:14.696 within two hours. 0:12:14.720,0:12:17.487 We have discovered,[br]if we respond within two hours, 0:12:17.511,0:12:21.543 then more people see the vaccination[br]than the conspiracy theory. 0:12:21.567,0:12:25.255 But if you respond four hours[br]or a day afterwards, 0:12:25.279,0:12:26.472 then that's a lost cause. 0:12:26.496,0:12:29.767 You can't really counter that[br]using humor anymore, 0:12:29.791,0:12:33.156 you have to invite the person[br]who spread those messages 0:12:33.180,0:12:34.783 into cocreation workshops. 0:12:34.807,0:12:36.607 But we're OK with that too. 0:12:37.807,0:12:39.276 DB: Your speed is incredible. 0:12:39.300,0:12:42.336 I see Whitney has joined us[br]with some questions. 0:12:42.990,0:12:44.856 Whitney Pennigton Rogers: That's right, 0:12:44.880,0:12:47.234 we have a few coming in already[br]from the audience. 0:12:47.258,0:12:48.440 Hi there, Audrey. 0:12:48.464,0:12:52.140 And we'll start with one[br]from our community member Michael Backes. 0:12:52.164,0:12:56.117 He asks how long has humor[br]versus rumor been a strategy 0:12:56.141,0:12:57.333 that you've implemented. 0:12:57.357,0:12:58.508 Excuse me. 0:12:58.532,0:13:01.318 "How long has humor versus rumor[br]strategy been implemented? 0:13:01.342,0:13:05.056 Were comedians consulted[br]to make the humor?" 0:13:05.713,0:13:06.904 AT: Yes, definitely. 0:13:06.928,0:13:10.391 Comedians are our most[br]cherished colleagues. 0:13:10.415,0:13:15.522 And each and every ministry has a team[br]of what we call participation officers 0:13:15.546,0:13:19.283 in charge of engaging[br]with trending topics. 0:13:19.307,0:13:22.031 And it's a more than 100[br]people-strong team now. 0:13:22.055,0:13:24.623 We meet every month[br]and also every couple of weeks 0:13:24.647,0:13:26.472 on specific topics. 0:13:26.496,0:13:30.987 It's been like that since late 2016, 0:13:31.011,0:13:35.172 but it's not until our previous[br]spokesperson, Kolas Yotaka, 0:13:35.196,0:13:37.862 joined about a year and a half ago, 0:13:37.886,0:13:40.418 do the professional comedians[br]get to the team. 0:13:40.442,0:13:46.659 Previously, this was more about inviting[br]the people who post, you know, 0:13:46.683,0:13:51.350 quotes like "Our tax filing system[br]is explosively hostile," 0:13:51.374,0:13:52.526 and gets trending, 0:13:52.550,0:13:55.492 and previously, the POs[br]just invited those people. 0:13:55.516,0:13:57.049 Everybody who complains 0:13:57.073,0:13:59.412 about the finance minister's[br]tax-filing experience 0:13:59.436,0:14:02.411 gets invited to the cocreation[br]of that tax filing experience. 0:14:02.435,0:14:03.746 So previously, it was that. 0:14:03.770,0:14:06.854 But Kolas Yotaka and the premier[br]Su Tseng-chang said, 0:14:06.878,0:14:09.132 wouldn't it be much better[br]and reach more people 0:14:09.156,0:14:12.371 if we add some dogs to it[br]or cat's pictures to it? 0:14:12.395,0:14:14.880 And that's been around[br]for a year and a half. 0:14:16.720,0:14:20.320 WPR: Definitely, I think it makes[br]a lot of difference, just even seeing them 0:14:20.344,0:14:23.371 without being part[br]of the thought process behind that. 0:14:23.395,0:14:27.925 And we have another question here[br]from G. Ryan Ansin. 0:14:28.990,0:14:31.751 He asks, "What would you rank[br]the level of trust 0:14:31.775,0:14:33.695 your community had before the pandemic, 0:14:33.719,0:14:35.846 in order for the government[br]to have a chance 0:14:35.870,0:14:38.337 at properly controlling this crisis?" 0:14:39.310,0:14:42.023 AT: I would say that a community[br]trusts each other. 0:14:42.047,0:14:44.787 And that is the main point[br]of digital democracy. 0:14:44.811,0:14:47.569 This is not about people[br]trusting the government more. 0:14:47.593,0:14:50.601 This is about the government[br]trusting the citizens more, 0:14:50.625,0:14:53.093 making the state transparent[br]to the citizen, 0:14:53.117,0:14:55.101 not the citizen transparent to the state, 0:14:55.125,0:14:56.807 which would be some other regime. 0:14:56.831,0:14:59.046 So making the state[br]transparent to the citizens 0:14:59.070,0:15:01.299 doesn't always elicit more trust, 0:15:01.323,0:15:03.982 because you may see something wrong,[br]something missing, 0:15:04.006,0:15:06.918 something exclusively hostile[br]to its user experience, 0:15:06.942,0:15:08.466 an so on, of the state. 0:15:08.490,0:15:11.751 So it doesn't necessarily lead[br]to more trust from the government. 0:15:11.775,0:15:13.799 Sorry, from the citizen to the government. 0:15:13.823,0:15:17.600 But it always leads to more trust[br]between the social sector stakeholders. 0:15:17.624,0:15:20.721 So I would say the level of trust[br]between the people 0:15:20.745,0:15:23.277 who are working on, for example, 0:15:23.301,0:15:25.627 medical officers, 0:15:25.651,0:15:28.983 and people who are working[br]with the pandemic responses, 0:15:29.007,0:15:30.879 people who manufacture medical masks, 0:15:30.903,0:15:32.069 and so on, 0:15:32.093,0:15:33.259 all these people, 0:15:33.283,0:15:35.443 the trust level between them is very high. 0:15:35.467,0:15:38.197 And not necessarily[br]they trust the government. 0:15:38.221,0:15:41.664 But we don't need that[br]for a successful response. 0:15:41.688,0:15:43.704 If you ask a random person on the street, 0:15:43.728,0:15:47.695 they will say Taiwan is performing so well[br]because of the people. 0:15:47.719,0:15:49.894 When the CECC tells us to wear the mask, 0:15:49.918,0:15:51.086 we wear the mask. 0:15:51.110,0:15:53.163 When the CECC tells us not to wear a mask, 0:15:53.187,0:15:55.203 like, if you are keeping[br]physical distance, 0:15:55.227,0:15:56.821 we wear a mask anyway. 0:15:56.845,0:15:58.227 And so because of that, 0:15:58.251,0:16:02.300 I think it's the social sector's trust[br]between those different stakeholders 0:16:02.324,0:16:04.245 that's the key to the response. 0:16:06.094,0:16:08.579 WPR: I will come back shortly[br]with more questions, 0:16:08.603,0:16:11.332 but I'll leave you guys[br]to continue your conversation. 0:16:11.356,0:16:12.823 AT: Awesome. 0:16:12.847,0:16:16.780 DB: Well, clearly,[br]part of that trust in government 0:16:16.804,0:16:22.434 was maybe not there in 2014[br]during the Sunflower Movement. 0:16:22.458,0:16:24.918 So talk to me about that 0:16:24.942,0:16:30.028 and how that led to this,[br]kind of, digital transformation. 0:16:31.535,0:16:32.703 AT: Indeed. 0:16:32.727,0:16:38.976 Before March 2014, if you asked[br]a random person on the street in Taiwan, 0:16:39.000,0:16:43.355 like, whether it's possible[br]for a minister -- that's me -- 0:16:43.379,0:16:46.909 to have their office in a park,[br]literally a park, 0:16:46.933,0:16:50.245 anyone can walk in and talk to me[br]for 40 minutes at a time, 0:16:50.269,0:16:53.118 I'm currently in that park,[br]the Social Innovation Lab, 0:16:53.142,0:16:55.158 they would say that this is crazy, right? 0:16:55.182,0:16:57.418 No public officials work like that. 0:16:57.442,0:17:01.141 But that was because on March 18, 2014, 0:17:01.165,0:17:03.950 hundreds of young activists,[br]most of them college students, 0:17:03.974,0:17:05.466 occupied the legislature 0:17:05.490,0:17:09.208 to express their profound opposition[br]to a trade pact with Beijing 0:17:09.232,0:17:10.831 under consideration, 0:17:10.855,0:17:14.661 and the secretive manner in which[br]it was pushed through the parliament 0:17:14.685,0:17:16.876 by Kuomintang,[br]the ruling party at the time. 0:17:16.900,0:17:19.003 And so the protesters[br]demanded, very simply, 0:17:19.027,0:17:20.569 that the pact be scraped, 0:17:20.593,0:17:24.467 and the government to institute[br]a more transparent ratification process. 0:17:24.783,0:17:26.895 And that drew widespread public support. 0:17:26.919,0:17:29.617 It ended a little more[br]than three weeks later, 0:17:29.641,0:17:32.609 after the government promised and agreed 0:17:32.633,0:17:37.387 on the four demands [unclear][br]of legislative oversight. 0:17:37.411,0:17:39.561 A poll released after the occupation 0:17:39.585,0:17:43.390 showed that more than 75 percent[br]remained dissatisfied 0:17:43.414,0:17:44.760 with the ruling government, 0:17:44.784,0:17:48.876 illustrating the crisis of trust[br]that was caused by a trade deal dispute. 0:17:48.900,0:17:51.309 And to heal this rift[br]and communicate better 0:17:51.333,0:17:52.544 with everyday citizens, 0:17:52.568,0:17:56.498 the administration reached out[br]to the people who supported the occupiers, 0:17:56.522,0:17:59.307 for example, the g0v community, 0:17:59.331,0:18:02.006 which has been seeking[br]to improve government transparency 0:18:02.030,0:18:04.100 through the creation of open-source tools. 0:18:04.124,0:18:07.236 And so, Jaclyn Tsai,[br]a government minister at the time, 0:18:07.260,0:18:08.712 attended our hackathon 0:18:08.736,0:18:12.085 and proposed the establishment[br]of novel platforms 0:18:12.109,0:18:15.299 with the online community[br]to exchange policy ideas. 0:18:15.323,0:18:18.336 And an experiment was born called vTaiwan, 0:18:18.360,0:18:21.074 that pioneerly used tools such as Polis, 0:18:21.098,0:18:24.514 that allows for "agree" or "disagree"[br]with no Reply button, 0:18:24.538,0:18:28.926 that gets people's rough consensus[br]on issues such as crowdfunding, 0:18:28.950,0:18:31.387 equity-based crowdfunding, to be precise, 0:18:31.411,0:18:34.831 teleworking and many other[br]cyber-related legislation, 0:18:34.855,0:18:37.831 of which there is no existing[br]unions or associations. 0:18:37.855,0:18:39.827 And it proved to be very successful. 0:18:39.851,0:18:42.955 They solved the Uber problem, for example, 0:18:42.979,0:18:44.836 and by now, you can call an Uber -- 0:18:44.860,0:18:47.656 I just called an Uber this week -- 0:18:47.680,0:18:50.578 but in any case,[br]they are operating as taxis. 0:18:50.602,0:18:53.808 They set up a local[br]taxi company called Q Taxi, 0:18:53.832,0:18:57.669 and that was because on the platform,[br]people cared about insurance, 0:18:57.693,0:18:59.143 they care about registration, 0:18:59.167,0:19:03.281 they care about all the sort of,[br]protection of the passengers, and so on. 0:19:03.305,0:19:05.934 So we changed the taxi regulations, 0:19:05.958,0:19:08.831 and now Uber is just another taxi company 0:19:08.855,0:19:10.855 along with the other co-ops. 0:19:11.871,0:19:14.009 DB: So you're actually, in a way, 0:19:14.033,0:19:18.813 crowdsourcing laws[br]that, well, then become laws. 0:19:19.464,0:19:22.035 AT: Yeah, learn more at crowd.law. 0:19:22.059,0:19:23.467 It's a real website. 0:19:24.568,0:19:28.683 DB: So, some might say[br]that this seems easier, 0:19:28.707,0:19:31.533 because Taiwan is an island, 0:19:31.557,0:19:34.744 that maybe helps you control COVID, 0:19:34.768,0:19:36.907 helps promote social cohesion, 0:19:36.931,0:19:41.042 maybe it's a smaller country than some. 0:19:41.066,0:19:44.800 Do you think that this could be[br]scaled beyond Taiwan? 0:19:46.182,0:19:47.428 AT: Well, first of all, 0:19:47.452,0:19:50.198 23 million people[br]is still quite some people. 0:19:50.222,0:19:51.760 It's not a city, 0:19:51.784,0:19:56.283 as some usually say, you know,[br]"Taiwan is a city-state." 0:19:56.307,0:20:00.003 Well, 23 million people,[br]not quite a city-state. 0:20:00.027,0:20:01.622 And what I'm trying to get at, 0:20:01.646,0:20:06.685 is that the high population density[br]and a variety of cultures -- 0:20:06.709,0:20:09.317 we have more than 20 national languages -- 0:20:09.341,0:20:14.206 doesn't necessarily lead[br]to social cohesion, as you said. 0:20:14.230,0:20:19.295 Rather, I think, this is the humbleness[br]of all the ministers 0:20:19.319,0:20:22.053 in the counter-coronavirus response. 0:20:22.077,0:20:27.272 They all took on an attitude[br]of "So we learned about SARS" -- 0:20:27.296,0:20:30.485 many of them were in charge[br]of the SARS back then, 0:20:30.509,0:20:32.757 but that was classical epidemiology. 0:20:32.781,0:20:35.910 This is SARS 2.0,[br]it has different characteristics. 0:20:35.934,0:20:38.077 And the tools that we use[br]are very different, 0:20:38.101,0:20:39.934 because of the digital transformation. 0:20:39.958,0:20:43.320 And so we are in it to learn[br]together with the citizens. 0:20:43.344,0:20:46.328 Our vice president at the time, 0:20:46.352,0:20:48.455 Dr. Chen Chien-jen, an academician, 0:20:48.479,0:20:51.680 literally wrote the textbook[br]on epidemiology. 0:20:51.704,0:20:54.047 However, he still says, 0:20:54.071,0:20:57.252 "You know, what I'm going to do[br]is record an online MOOC, 0:20:57.276,0:20:59.244 a crash course on epidemiology, 0:20:59.268,0:21:00.491 that shares with, 0:21:00.515,0:21:03.133 I think, more than 20,00 people[br]enrolled the first day, 0:21:03.157,0:21:04.329 I was among them, 0:21:04.353,0:21:05.831 to learn about important ideas, 0:21:05.855,0:21:10.101 like the R0 and the basic transmission 0:21:10.125,0:21:12.601 and how the various[br]different measures work, 0:21:12.625,0:21:14.801 and then they asked people to innovate. 0:21:14.825,0:21:19.409 If you think of a new way[br]that the vice president did not think of, 0:21:19.433,0:21:20.719 just call 1922, 0:21:20.743,0:21:23.901 and your idea will become[br]the next day's press conference. 0:21:23.925,0:21:26.569 And this is this colearning strategy, 0:21:26.593,0:21:30.736 I think, that more than anything[br]enabled the social cohesion, 0:21:30.760,0:21:31.967 as you speak. 0:21:31.991,0:21:35.832 But this is more of a robust[br]civil society than the uniformity. 0:21:35.856,0:21:38.330 There's no uniformity at all in Taiwan, 0:21:38.354,0:21:40.439 everybody is entitled to their ideas, 0:21:40.463,0:21:41.968 and all the social innovations, 0:21:41.992,0:21:44.468 ranging from using[br]a traditional rice cooker 0:21:44.492,0:21:47.383 to revitalize, to disinfect the mask, 0:21:47.407,0:21:49.228 to pink medical mask, and so on, 0:21:49.252,0:21:51.537 there's all variety[br]of very interesting ideas 0:21:51.561,0:21:54.236 that get amplified[br]by the daily press conference. 0:21:55.685,0:21:58.167 DB: That's beautiful. 0:21:58.748,0:22:00.598 Now -- oh, Whitney is back, 0:22:00.622,0:22:02.900 so I will let her ask the next question. 0:22:04.293,0:22:06.753 WPR: Sure, we're having[br]some more questions come in. 0:22:06.777,0:22:09.642 One from our community member Aria Bendix. 0:22:09.666,0:22:14.028 Aria asked, "How do you ensure[br]that digital campaigns act quickly 0:22:14.052,0:22:15.829 without sacrificing accuracy? 0:22:15.853,0:22:19.609 In the US, there was a fear[br]of inciting panic about COVID-19 0:22:19.633,0:22:21.233 in early January." 0:22:22.684,0:22:24.779 AT: This is a great question. 0:22:24.803,0:22:31.733 So most of the scientific ideas[br]about the COVID are evolving, right? 0:22:32.046,0:22:36.574 The efficacy of masks, for example,[br]is a very good example, 0:22:36.598,0:22:41.943 because the different characteristics[br]of previous respiratory diseases 0:22:41.967,0:22:44.279 respond differently to the facial mask. 0:22:44.303,0:22:46.255 And so, our digital campaigns 0:22:46.279,0:22:50.461 focus on the idea of getting[br]the rough consensus through. 0:22:50.485,0:22:52.734 So basically, it's a reflection[br]of the society, 0:22:52.758,0:22:56.585 through Polis, through Slido,[br]through the joint platform, 0:22:56.609,0:22:59.068 the various tools[br]that vTaiwan has prototyped, 0:22:59.092,0:23:02.591 we know that people are feeling[br]a rough consensus about things 0:23:02.615,0:23:05.501 and we're responding[br]to the society, saying, 0:23:05.525,0:23:07.458 "This is what you all feel 0:23:07.482,0:23:10.276 and this is what we're doing[br]to respond to your feelings. 0:23:10.300,0:23:13.045 And the scientific consensus[br]is still developing, 0:23:13.069,0:23:14.474 but we know, for example, 0:23:14.498,0:23:18.268 people feel that wearing a mask[br]mostly protects you, 0:23:18.292,0:23:20.863 because it reminds you[br]to not touch your face 0:23:20.887,0:23:22.449 and wash your hands properly." 0:23:22.473,0:23:24.768 And these, regardless of everything else, 0:23:24.792,0:23:26.950 are the two things[br]that everybody agrees with. 0:23:26.974,0:23:29.156 So we just capitalize on that and say, 0:23:29.180,0:23:31.085 "OK, wash your hands properly, 0:23:31.109,0:23:32.395 and don't touch your face, 0:23:32.419,0:23:34.383 and wearing a mask reminds you of that." 0:23:34.407,0:23:35.907 And that lets us cut through 0:23:35.931,0:23:39.145 the kind of, very ideologically[br]charged debates 0:23:39.169,0:23:43.172 and focus on what people[br]generally resonate with one another. 0:23:43.196,0:23:46.791 And that's how we act quickly[br]without sacrificing scientific accuracy. 0:23:49.012,0:23:52.536 WPR: And this next question[br]sort of feels connected to this as well. 0:23:52.560,0:23:55.545 It's a question from an anonymous[br]community member. 0:23:55.569,0:23:57.891 "Pragmatically, do you think[br]any of your policies 0:23:57.915,0:24:01.764 could be applied in the United States[br]under the current Trump administration?" 0:24:01.788,0:24:03.042 AT: Quite a few, actually. 0:24:03.066,0:24:07.744 We work with many states[br]in the US and abroad 0:24:07.768,0:24:13.347 on what we call "epicenter[br]to epicenter diplomacy." (Laughs) 0:24:13.371,0:24:16.276 So what we're doing essentially is, 0:24:16.300,0:24:18.479 for example,[br]there was a chat bot in Taiwan 0:24:18.503,0:24:21.860 that lets you, but especially[br]people under home quarantine, 0:24:21.884,0:24:23.950 to ask the chat bot anything. 0:24:23.974,0:24:26.743 And if there is a scientific adviser 0:24:26.767,0:24:29.145 who already wrote[br]a frequently asked question, 0:24:29.169,0:24:30.938 the chat bot just responds with that, 0:24:30.962,0:24:34.352 but otherwise, they will call[br]the science advisory board 0:24:34.376,0:24:37.395 and write an accessible response to that, 0:24:37.419,0:24:41.426 and the spokesdog would translate that[br]into a cute dog meme. 0:24:41.450,0:24:43.244 And so this feedback cycle 0:24:43.268,0:24:47.458 of people very easily accessing,[br]finding, and asking a scientist, 0:24:47.482,0:24:50.360 and an open API[br]that allows for voice assistance 0:24:50.384,0:24:54.328 and other third-party developers[br]to get through it, 0:24:54.352,0:24:56.522 resonates with many US states, 0:24:56.546,0:24:59.457 and I think many of them[br]are implementing it. 0:24:59.481,0:25:03.352 And before the World Health Assembly,[br]I think three days before, 0:25:03.376,0:25:07.915 we held a 14 countries[br][unclear] lateral meeting, 0:25:07.939,0:25:09.305 kind of, pre-WHA, 0:25:09.329,0:25:12.658 where we shared many small,[br]like, quick wins like this. 0:25:12.682,0:25:15.864 And I think many jurisdictions[br]took some of that, 0:25:15.888,0:25:17.595 including the humor versus rumor. 0:25:17.619,0:25:18.785 Many of them said 0:25:18.809,0:25:21.033 that they're going to recruit[br]comedians now. 0:25:21.473,0:25:23.168 WPR: (Laughs) I love that. 0:25:23.192,0:25:24.568 DB: I hope so. 0:25:24.592,0:25:26.385 WPR: I hope so too. 0:25:26.409,0:25:29.284 And we have one more question,[br]which is actually a follow-up, 0:25:29.308,0:25:31.942 from Michael Backes,[br]who asked a question earlier. 0:25:31.966,0:25:35.022 "Does the Ministry plan[br]to publish their plans in a white paper?" 0:25:35.046,0:25:37.804 Sounds like you're already sharing[br]your plans with folks, 0:25:37.828,0:25:40.183 but do you have a plan[br]to put it out on paper? 0:25:40.207,0:25:41.413 AT: Of course. 0:25:41.437,0:25:43.039 Yeah, and multiple white papers. 0:25:43.063,0:25:47.469 So if you go to taiwancanhelp.us, 0:25:47.493,0:25:50.093 that is where most of our strategy is, 0:25:50.117,0:25:53.653 and that website is actually[br]crowdsourced as well, 0:25:53.677,0:25:56.576 and it shows that more[br]than five million now, I think, 0:25:56.600,0:26:00.248 medical masks donated[br]to the humanitarian aid. 0:26:00.272,0:26:01.768 It's also crowdsourced. 0:26:01.792,0:26:05.003 People who have some masks in their homes, 0:26:05.027,0:26:08.026 who did not collect the rationed masks, 0:26:08.050,0:26:09.328 they can use an app, say, 0:26:09.352,0:26:12.818 "I want to dedicate this[br]to international humanitarian aid," 0:26:12.842,0:26:15.984 and half of them choose[br]to publish their names, 0:26:16.008,0:26:19.307 so you can also see the names[br]of people who participated in this. 0:26:19.331,0:26:22.040 And there's also[br]an "Ask Taiwan Anything" website, 0:26:22.064,0:26:23.561 (Laughs) 0:26:23.585,0:26:26.796 at fightcovid.edu.tw, 0:26:26.820,0:26:30.509 that outlines, in white paper form,[br]all the response strategies, 0:26:30.533,0:26:32.033 so check those out. 0:26:33.145,0:26:34.307 WPR: Great. 0:26:34.331,0:26:37.682 Well, I will disappear and be back[br]later with some other questions. 0:26:38.927,0:26:42.156 DB: A blizzard[br]of white papers, if you will. 0:26:42.180,0:26:46.725 I'd like to turn the focus[br]on you a little bit. 0:26:46.749,0:26:52.333 How does a conservative anarchist[br]become a digital minister? 0:26:53.466,0:26:56.950 AT: Yeah, by occupying[br]the parliament, and through that. 0:26:56.974,0:26:57.975 (Laughs) 0:26:57.999,0:26:59.172 More interestingly, 0:26:59.196,0:27:03.220 I would say that I go[br]working with the government, 0:27:03.244,0:27:05.090 but never for the government. 0:27:05.114,0:27:07.780 And I work with the people,[br]not for the people. 0:27:07.804,0:27:10.468 I'm like this Lagrange point 0:27:10.492,0:27:13.220 between the people's[br]movements on one side, 0:27:13.244,0:27:15.565 and the government on the other side. 0:27:16.395,0:27:18.165 Sometimes right in the middle, 0:27:18.189,0:27:20.363 trying to do some coach[br]or translation work. 0:27:20.387,0:27:22.958 Sometimes in a kind of triangle point, 0:27:22.982,0:27:28.299 trying to supply both sides with tools[br]for prosocial communication. 0:27:28.323,0:27:30.901 But always with this idea 0:27:30.925,0:27:35.022 of getting the shared values[br]out of different positions, 0:27:35.046,0:27:36.577 out of varied positions. 0:27:36.601,0:27:37.853 Because all too often, 0:27:37.877,0:27:41.323 democracy is built as a showdown[br]between opposing values. 0:27:41.347,0:27:44.379 But in the pandemic, in the infodemic, 0:27:44.403,0:27:45.815 in climate change, 0:27:45.839,0:27:47.918 in many of those structural issues, 0:27:47.942,0:27:52.201 the virus or carbon dioxide[br]doesn't sit down and negotiate with you. 0:27:52.225,0:27:55.907 It's a structural issue[br]that requires common values 0:27:55.931,0:27:57.569 built out of different positions. 0:27:57.593,0:28:03.025 And so that is why my working principle[br]is radical transparency. 0:28:03.049,0:28:05.228 Every conversation, including this one, 0:28:05.252,0:28:06.425 is on the record, 0:28:06.449,0:28:08.606 including the internal[br]meetings that I hold. 0:28:08.630,0:28:11.995 So you can see all the different[br]meeting transcripts 0:28:12.019,0:28:14.955 in my YouTube channel,[br]in the SayIt platform, 0:28:14.979,0:28:17.548 where people can see,[br]after I became digital minister, 0:28:17.572,0:28:21.055 I held 1,300 meetings[br]with more than 5,000 speakers, 0:28:21.079,0:28:24.791 with more than 260,000 utterances. 0:28:24.815,0:28:27.626 And every one of them has a URL 0:28:27.650,0:28:31.018 that becomes a social object[br]that people can have a conversation on. 0:28:31.042,0:28:32.264 And because of that, 0:28:32.288,0:28:37.831 for example, when Uber's David Plouffe[br]visited me to lobby for Uber, 0:28:37.855,0:28:39.401 because of radical transparency, 0:28:39.425,0:28:41.625 he is very much aware of that, 0:28:41.649,0:28:44.201 and so he made all the arguments[br]based on public good, 0:28:44.225,0:28:46.434 based on sustainability,[br]and things like that, 0:28:46.458,0:28:50.395 because he knows that the other sides[br]would see his positions 0:28:50.419,0:28:52.244 very clearly and transparently. 0:28:52.268,0:28:55.395 So that encourages people[br]to add on each other's argument, 0:28:55.419,0:28:58.312 instead of attacking each other's person, 0:28:58.336,0:29:00.304 you know, credits and things like that. 0:29:00.328,0:29:02.249 And so I think that, more than anything, 0:29:02.273,0:29:06.568 is the main principle of conserving[br]the anarchism of the internet, 0:29:06.592,0:29:07.809 which is about, you know, 0:29:07.833,0:29:11.160 nobody can force anyone[br]to hook to the internet, 0:29:11.184,0:29:13.541 or to adhere to a new internet protocol. 0:29:13.565,0:29:17.116 Everything has to be done[br]using rough consensus and running code. 0:29:18.649,0:29:21.990 DB: I wish you had more counterparts[br]all around the world. 0:29:22.014,0:29:24.967 Maybe you wish you had more[br]counterparts all around the world. 0:29:25.338,0:29:27.700 AT: That's why these ideas[br]are worth spreading. 0:29:28.076,0:29:29.250 DB: There you go. 0:29:29.274,0:29:35.359 So one of the challenges that might arise[br]with some of these digital tools 0:29:35.383,0:29:36.723 is access. 0:29:36.747,0:29:39.143 How do you approach that part of it 0:29:39.167,0:29:43.409 for folks maybe who don't have[br]the best broadband connection 0:29:43.433,0:29:48.590 or the latest mobile phone[br]or whatever it might be that's required? 0:29:49.569,0:29:51.264 AT: Well, anywhere in Taiwan, 0:29:51.288,0:29:54.778 even on the top of Taiwan,[br]almost 4,000 meters high, 0:29:54.802,0:29:56.852 the Saviah, or the Jade Mountain, 0:29:56.876,0:30:00.043 you're guaranteed to have[br]10 megabits per second 0:30:00.067,0:30:02.291 over 4G or fiber or cable, 0:30:02.315,0:30:06.899 with just 16 US dollars[br]a month, an unlimited plan. 0:30:06.923,0:30:10.201 And actually, on the top[br]of the mountain, it's faster, 0:30:10.225,0:30:12.209 fewer people use that bandwidth. 0:30:12.233,0:30:14.029 And if you don't, it's my fault. 0:30:14.053,0:30:15.283 It's personally my fault. 0:30:15.307,0:30:17.958 In Taiwan, we have broadband[br]as a human right. 0:30:17.982,0:30:19.934 And so when we're deploying 5G, 0:30:19.958,0:30:23.125 we're looking at places[br]where the 4G has the weakest signal, 0:30:23.149,0:30:27.014 and we begin with those places[br]in our 5G deployment. 0:30:27.038,0:30:30.101 And only by deploying broadband[br]as a human right 0:30:30.125,0:30:33.068 can we say that this is for everybody. 0:30:33.092,0:30:36.433 That digital democracy[br]actually strengthens democracy. 0:30:36.457,0:30:39.583 Otherwise, we would be excluding[br]parts of the society. 0:30:39.607,0:30:41.459 And this also applies to, for example, 0:30:41.483,0:30:43.839 you can go to a local[br]digital opportunity center 0:30:43.863,0:30:45.643 to rent a tablet that's guaranteed 0:30:45.667,0:30:47.968 to be manufactured[br]in the past three years, 0:30:47.992,0:30:49.189 and things like that, 0:30:49.213,0:30:51.822 to enable, also,[br]the different digital access 0:30:51.846,0:30:56.101 by the digital opportunity centers,[br]universities and schools, 0:30:56.125,0:30:58.378 and public libraries, very important. 0:30:58.402,0:31:01.625 And if people who prefer to talk[br]in their town hall, 0:31:01.649,0:31:06.185 I personally go to that town hall[br]with a 360 recorder, 0:31:06.209,0:31:09.471 and livestream that to Taipei[br]and to other municipalities, 0:31:09.495,0:31:12.101 where the central government's[br]public servants can join 0:31:12.125,0:31:13.825 in a connected room style, 0:31:13.849,0:31:16.509 but listening to the local people[br]who set the agenda. 0:31:16.533,0:31:19.145 So people still do face-to-face meetings, 0:31:19.169,0:31:21.733 we're not doing this[br]to replace face-to-face meetings. 0:31:21.757,0:31:23.522 We're bringing more stakeholders 0:31:23.546,0:31:26.133 from central government[br]in the local town halls, 0:31:26.157,0:31:28.078 and we're amplifying their voices 0:31:28.102,0:31:31.285 by making sure the transcripts,[br]the mind maps, and things like that 0:31:31.309,0:31:33.966 are spread through[br]the internet in real time, 0:31:33.990,0:31:36.776 but we don't ever ask the elderly to, say, 0:31:36.800,0:31:39.918 "Oh, you have to learn typing,[br]otherwise you don't do democracy." 0:31:39.942,0:31:41.109 It's not our style. 0:31:41.133,0:31:42.473 But that requires broadband. 0:31:42.497,0:31:45.960 Because if you don't have broadband,[br]but only a very limited bandwidth, 0:31:45.984,0:31:48.196 you are forced to use[br]text-based communication. 0:31:48.521,0:31:49.752 DB: That's right. 0:31:49.776,0:31:51.217 Well, with access, of course, 0:31:51.241,0:31:55.568 comes access for folks[br]who maybe will misuse the platform. 0:31:55.592,0:31:58.106 You talked a little bit[br]about disinformation 0:31:58.130,0:31:59.868 and using humor to beat rumor. 0:31:59.892,0:32:04.516 But sometimes, disinformation[br]is more weaponized. 0:32:04.919,0:32:09.461 How do you combat those kinds[br]of attacks, really? 0:32:10.101,0:32:12.783 AT: Right, so you mean[br]malinformation, then. 0:32:12.807,0:32:18.868 So essentially, information designed[br]to cause intentional public harm. 0:32:18.892,0:32:22.177 And that's no laughing matter. 0:32:22.201,0:32:26.712 So for that, we have an idea called[br]"notice and public notice." 0:32:26.736,0:32:29.117 So this is a Reuters photo, 0:32:29.141,0:32:31.355 and I will read the original caption. 0:32:31.379,0:32:32.633 The original caption says 0:32:32.657,0:32:35.972 "A teenage extradition bill[br]protester in Hong Kong 0:32:35.996,0:32:40.163 is seen during a march to demand democracy[br]and political reform in Hong Kong." 0:32:40.187,0:32:42.844 OK, a very neutral title by the Reuters. 0:32:42.868,0:32:46.971 But there was a spreading[br]of a malinformation 0:32:46.995,0:32:48.849 back last November, 0:32:48.873,0:32:50.904 just leading to our presidential election, 0:32:50.928,0:32:53.014 that shows something else entirely. 0:32:53.038,0:32:55.576 This is the same photo -- that says 0:32:55.600,0:32:58.583 "This 13-year-old thug bought new iPhones, 0:32:58.607,0:33:00.654 game consoles and brand-name sports shoes, 0:33:00.678,0:33:03.393 and recruiting his brothers[br]to murder police 0:33:03.417,0:33:06.620 and collect 200,000 dollars." 0:33:06.644,0:33:10.461 And this, of course, is a weapon[br]designed to sow discord, 0:33:10.485,0:33:15.895 and to elicit in Taiwan's voters[br]a kind of distaste for Hong Kong. 0:33:15.919,0:33:19.042 And because they know[br]that this is the main issue. 0:33:19.066,0:33:21.685 And had we resorted to takedowns, 0:33:21.709,0:33:22.915 that will not work, 0:33:22.939,0:33:25.090 because that would only[br]evoke more outrage. 0:33:25.114,0:33:26.545 So we didn't do a takedown. 0:33:26.569,0:33:28.610 Instead, we worked with the fact checkers 0:33:28.634,0:33:30.022 and professional journalists 0:33:30.046,0:33:35.225 to attribute this original message[br]back to the first day that it was posted. 0:33:35.249,0:33:37.680 And it came from Zhongyang Zhengfawei. 0:33:37.704,0:33:44.450 That is the main political and legal unit[br]of the central party, 0:33:44.474,0:33:46.656 in the Central Communist Party, in CCP. 0:33:46.680,0:33:52.053 And we know that it's their Weibo account[br]that first did this new caption. 0:33:52.077,0:33:54.252 So we sent out a public notice 0:33:54.276,0:33:56.633 and with the partners[br]in social media companies, 0:33:56.657,0:33:58.181 pretty much all of them, 0:33:58.205,0:34:00.939 they just put this very small reminder 0:34:00.963,0:34:04.501 next to each time that this is shared[br]with the wrong caption, 0:34:04.525,0:34:08.461 that says "This actually came[br]from the central propaganda unit 0:34:08.485,0:34:09.674 of the CCP. 0:34:09.698,0:34:12.594 Click here to learn more.[br]To learn about the whole story." 0:34:12.618,0:34:14.968 And that, we found, that has worked, 0:34:14.992,0:34:18.536 because people understand[br]this is then not a news material. 0:34:18.560,0:34:22.115 This is rather an appropriation[br]of Reuters' news material 0:34:22.139,0:34:23.791 and a copyright infringement 0:34:23.815,0:34:26.061 and I think that's part of the [unclear]. 0:34:26.085,0:34:28.743 In any case, the point[br]is that when people understand 0:34:28.767,0:34:30.598 that this is an intentional narrative, 0:34:30.622,0:34:32.550 they won't just randomly share it. 0:34:32.574,0:34:35.137 They may share it,[br]but with a comment that says 0:34:35.161,0:34:40.539 "This is what the Zhongyang Zhengfawei[br]is trying to do to our democracy." 0:34:42.182,0:34:46.474 DB: Seems like some[br]of the global social media companies 0:34:46.498,0:34:50.534 could learn something[br]from notice and public notice. 0:34:50.558,0:34:52.156 AT: Public notice, that's right. 0:34:52.180,0:34:55.039 DB: What advice would you have 0:34:55.063,0:35:00.376 for the Twitters and Facebooks[br]and LINEs and WhatsApps, 0:35:00.400,0:35:02.734 and you name it, of the world? 0:35:04.203,0:35:05.386 AT: Yeah. 0:35:05.410,0:35:08.656 So, just before our election, 0:35:08.680,0:35:10.475 we said to all of them 0:35:10.499,0:35:15.685 that we're not making a law[br]to kind of punish them. 0:35:15.709,0:35:18.764 However, we're sharing[br]this very simple fact 0:35:18.788,0:35:20.963 that there is this norm in Taiwan 0:35:20.987,0:35:23.545 that we even have a separate branch[br]of the government, 0:35:23.569,0:35:24.768 the control branch, 0:35:24.792,0:35:28.360 that published the campaign[br]donation and expense. 0:35:28.384,0:35:30.534 And it just so occurred to us 0:35:30.558,0:35:33.931 that in the previous election,[br]the mayoral one, 0:35:33.955,0:35:35.352 there was a lot of candidates 0:35:35.376,0:35:38.053 that did not include[br]any social media advertisements 0:35:38.077,0:35:40.099 in their expense to the Control Yuan. 0:35:40.123,0:35:44.203 And so essentially, that means[br]that there is a separate amount 0:35:44.227,0:35:48.847 of political donation and expense[br]that evades public scrutiny. 0:35:48.871,0:35:51.066 And our Control Yuan[br]published their numbers 0:35:51.090,0:35:52.321 in raw data form, 0:35:52.345,0:35:53.963 [unclear] they're not statistics, 0:35:53.987,0:35:57.582 but individual records[br]of who donated for what cause, 0:35:57.606,0:35:58.757 when, where, 0:35:58.781,0:36:01.243 and investigative journalists[br]are very happy, 0:36:01.267,0:36:03.839 because they can then make[br]investigative reports 0:36:03.863,0:36:06.131 about the connections[br]between the candidates 0:36:06.155,0:36:07.593 and the people who fund them. 0:36:07.617,0:36:09.934 But they cannot work[br]with the same material 0:36:09.958,0:36:11.959 from the global social media companies. 0:36:11.983,0:36:14.359 So I said, "Look, this is very simple. 0:36:14.383,0:36:15.773 This is the social norm here, 0:36:15.797,0:36:17.978 I don't really care[br]about other jurisdictions. 0:36:18.002,0:36:21.816 You either adhere to the social norm[br]that is set by the Control Yuan 0:36:21.840,0:36:23.506 and the investigative journalists, 0:36:23.530,0:36:25.895 or maybe you will face social sanctions. 0:36:25.919,0:36:28.156 And this is not the government mandate, 0:36:28.180,0:36:32.061 but it's the people fed up with,[br]you know, black box, 0:36:32.085,0:36:35.910 and that's part of the Sunflower[br]Occupy's demands, also. 0:36:35.934,0:36:39.871 And so Facebook actually published[br]in the Ad Library, 0:36:39.895,0:36:45.014 I think at that time,[br]one of the fastest response strategies, 0:36:45.038,0:36:51.058 where everybody who has[br]basically any dark pattern advertisement 0:36:51.082,0:36:52.931 will get revealed very quickly, 0:36:52.955,0:36:56.399 and investigative journalists[br]work with the local civic technologists 0:36:56.423,0:37:01.227 to make sure that if anybody dare to use[br]social media in such a divisive way, 0:37:01.251,0:37:05.307 within an hour, there will be[br]a report out condemning that. 0:37:05.331,0:37:09.474 So nobody tried that during[br]the previous presidential election season. 0:37:09.498,0:37:11.458 DB: So change is possible. 0:37:12.196,0:37:13.346 AT: Mhm. 0:37:15.942,0:37:18.911 WPR: Hey there, we have[br]some more questions from the community. 0:37:18.935,0:37:21.188 There is an anonymous one 0:37:21.212,0:37:25.704 that says, "I believe Taiwan[br]is outside WHO entirely 0:37:25.728,0:37:28.786 and has a 130-part preparation program -- 0:37:28.810,0:37:30.572 developed entirely on its own -- 0:37:30.596,0:37:33.005 to what extent does it credit[br]its preparation 0:37:33.029,0:37:34.896 to building its own system?" 0:37:36.168,0:37:39.871 AT: Well, a little bit, I guess. 0:37:39.895,0:37:42.905 We tried to warn the WHO, 0:37:42.929,0:37:44.127 but at that point -- 0:37:44.151,0:37:47.950 we are not totally outside,[br]we have limited scientific access. 0:37:47.974,0:37:50.529 But we do not have any ministerial access. 0:37:50.553,0:37:52.180 And this is very different, right? 0:37:52.204,0:37:54.768 If you only have limited[br]scientific access, 0:37:54.792,0:38:00.680 unless the other side's top epidemiologist[br]happens to be the vice president, 0:38:00.704,0:38:02.720 like in Taiwan's case, 0:38:02.744,0:38:06.514 they don't always do[br]the storytelling well enough 0:38:06.538,0:38:10.570 to translate that into political action[br]as our vice president did, right? 0:38:10.594,0:38:13.124 So the lack of ministerial[br]access, I think, 0:38:13.148,0:38:16.020 is to the detriment[br]of the global community, 0:38:16.044,0:38:19.331 because otherwise,[br]people could have responded as we did 0:38:19.355,0:38:20.791 in the first day of January, 0:38:20.815,0:38:24.012 instead of having to wait for weeks 0:38:24.036,0:38:27.702 before the WHO declared[br]that this is something, 0:38:27.726,0:38:30.156 that there's definitely[br]human to human transmission, 0:38:30.180,0:38:32.845 that you should inspect people[br]coming in from Wuhan, 0:38:32.869,0:38:34.383 which they eventually did, 0:38:34.407,0:38:37.624 but that's already two weeks[br]or three weeks after what we did. 0:38:40.247,0:38:41.577 WPR: Makes a lot of sense. 0:38:41.601,0:38:45.014 DB: More scientists[br]and technologists in politics. 0:38:45.038,0:38:46.888 That sounds like that's the answer. 0:38:47.228,0:38:48.378 AT: Yeah. 0:38:50.633,0:38:54.212 WPR: And then we have another[br]question here from Kamal Srinivasan 0:38:54.236,0:38:55.768 about your reopening strategy. 0:38:55.792,0:39:00.368 "How are you enabling restaurants[br]and retailers to open safely in Taiwan?" 0:39:00.974,0:39:03.363 AT: Oh, they never closed, so ... (Laughs) 0:39:03.387,0:39:04.862 WPR: Oh! 0:39:04.886,0:39:06.236 AT: Yeah, they never closed, 0:39:06.260,0:39:09.389 there was no lockdown,[br]there was no closure. 0:39:09.413,0:39:12.889 We just said a very simple thing[br]in the CECC press conference, 0:39:12.913,0:39:15.135 that there's going to be[br]physical distancing. 0:39:15.159,0:39:17.215 You maintain one and a half meters indoors 0:39:17.239,0:39:18.389 or wear a mask. 0:39:18.413,0:39:19.594 And that's it. 0:39:19.618,0:39:24.275 And so there are some restaurants[br]that put up, I guess, red curtains, 0:39:24.299,0:39:28.627 some put very cute teddy bears[br]and so on, on the chairs, 0:39:28.651,0:39:30.982 to make sure that people spread evenly, 0:39:31.006,0:39:37.240 some installed see-through[br]glass or plastic walls 0:39:37.264,0:39:38.662 between the seats. 0:39:38.686,0:39:41.899 There's various social[br]innovations happening around. 0:39:41.923,0:39:46.515 And I think the only shops[br]that got closed for a while, 0:39:46.539,0:39:51.484 because they could not innovate[br]quick enough to respond to these rules, 0:39:51.508,0:39:54.277 was the intimate escort bars. 0:39:54.301,0:39:57.757 But eventually,[br]even they invented new ways, 0:39:57.781,0:40:02.384 by handing out these caps[br]that are plastic shielding, 0:40:02.408,0:40:05.749 but still leaves room[br]for drinking behind it. 0:40:05.773,0:40:08.461 And so they opened[br]with that social innovation. 0:40:10.479,0:40:12.162 DB: That's amazing. 0:40:12.186,0:40:16.692 WPR: It is, yeah, it's a lot to learn[br]from your strategies there. 0:40:16.716,0:40:20.791 Thank you, I'll be back towards the end[br]with some final questions. 0:40:22.002,0:40:25.867 DB: I'm very happy to hear[br]that the restaurants were not closed down, 0:40:25.891,0:40:30.275 because I think Taipei[br]has some of the best food in the world 0:40:30.299,0:40:33.329 of any city that I've visited, 0:40:33.353,0:40:36.517 so, you know, kudos to you for that. 0:40:38.252,0:40:44.791 So the big concern when it comes[br]to using digital tools for COVID 0:40:44.815,0:40:47.153 or using digital tools for democracy 0:40:47.177,0:40:49.651 is always privacy. 0:40:49.675,0:40:52.985 You've talked about that a little bit, 0:40:53.009,0:40:56.543 but I'm sure the citizens of Taiwan 0:40:56.567,0:40:59.295 are perhaps equally concerned[br]about their privacy, 0:40:59.319,0:41:02.483 especially given the geopolitical context. 0:41:02.507,0:41:03.663 AT: Definitely. 0:41:03.687,0:41:05.749 DB: So how do you cope with those demands? 0:41:07.010,0:41:13.060 AT: Yeah, we design[br]with not only defensive strategy, 0:41:13.084,0:41:15.498 like minimization of data collection, 0:41:15.522,0:41:17.977 but also proactive measures, 0:41:18.001,0:41:20.522 such as privacy-enhancing technologies. 0:41:20.546,0:41:23.740 One of the top teams[br]that emerged out of our cohack, 0:41:23.764,0:41:27.352 the TW response from the Polis, 0:41:27.376,0:41:30.264 how to make contact tracing easier, 0:41:30.288,0:41:32.328 focused not on the contact tracers, 0:41:32.352,0:41:35.213 not on the medical officers,[br]but on the person. 0:41:35.237,0:41:37.530 So they basically said,[br]"OK, you have a phone, 0:41:37.554,0:41:39.620 you can record your temperatures, 0:41:39.644,0:41:42.847 you can record your whereabouts[br]and things like that, 0:41:42.871,0:41:44.974 but that is strictly in your phone. 0:41:44.998,0:41:46.529 It doesn't even use Bluetooth. 0:41:46.553,0:41:47.887 So there's no transmission. 0:41:48.229,0:41:49.776 Technology uses open-source, 0:41:49.800,0:41:52.331 you can check it,[br]you can use it in airplane mode. 0:41:52.355,0:41:54.903 And when the contact tracer[br]eventually tells you 0:41:54.927,0:41:56.974 that you are part of a high-risk group, 0:41:56.998,0:41:59.323 and they really want your contact history, 0:41:59.347,0:42:02.553 this tool can then generate[br]a single-use URL 0:42:02.577,0:42:06.358 that only contains[br]the precise information, 0:42:06.382,0:42:07.564 anonymized, 0:42:07.588,0:42:09.228 that the contact tracers want. 0:42:09.252,0:42:12.522 But it will not,[br]like in a traditional interview, 0:42:12.546,0:42:14.313 let you ask -- 0:42:14.337,0:42:17.799 they ask a question, they only want[br]to know your whereabouts, 0:42:17.823,0:42:19.665 but you answer with such accuracy 0:42:19.689,0:42:22.609 that you end up compromising[br]other people's privacy. 0:42:22.633,0:42:25.225 So basically, this is about designing 0:42:25.249,0:42:28.600 with an aim to enhance[br]other people's privacy, 0:42:28.624,0:42:31.617 because personal data[br]is never truly personal. 0:42:31.641,0:42:34.403 It's always social,[br]it's always intersectional. 0:42:34.427,0:42:36.907 If I take a selfie at a party, 0:42:36.931,0:42:40.616 I inadvertently also take[br]pretty much everybody else's 0:42:40.640,0:42:44.283 who are in the picture, the surroundings,[br]the ambiance, and so on, 0:42:44.307,0:42:47.634 and if I upload it to a cloud service, 0:42:47.658,0:42:50.691 then I actually decimate[br]the bargaining power, 0:42:50.715,0:42:53.304 the negotiation power[br]of everybody around me, 0:42:53.328,0:42:56.174 because then their data[br]is part of the cloud, 0:42:56.198,0:42:58.315 and the cloud doesn't have to[br]compensate them 0:42:58.339,0:42:59.928 or get their agreement for it. 0:42:59.952,0:43:02.204 And so only by designing the tools 0:43:02.228,0:43:05.617 with privacy enhancing[br]as a positive value, 0:43:05.641,0:43:08.323 and not enhancing only[br]the person's own privacy, 0:43:08.347,0:43:10.392 just like a medical mask, it protects you, 0:43:10.416,0:43:12.498 but mostly it also protects others, right? 0:43:12.522,0:43:15.823 So if we design tools using that idea, 0:43:15.847,0:43:19.291 and always open-source[br]and with an open API, 0:43:19.315,0:43:21.029 then we're in a much better shape 0:43:21.053,0:43:25.339 than in centralized or so-called[br]cloud-based services. 0:43:27.656,0:43:30.370 DB: Well, you're clearly[br]living in the future, 0:43:30.394,0:43:33.371 and I guess that's quite literal, 0:43:33.395,0:43:35.521 in the sense of,[br]it's tomorrow morning there. 0:43:35.545,0:43:36.704 AT: Twelve hours. 0:43:36.728,0:43:37.878 DB: Yes. 0:43:38.657,0:43:41.585 Tell me, what do you see in the future? 0:43:41.609,0:43:43.353 What comes next? 0:43:44.926,0:43:49.001 AT: Yes, so I see the coronavirus[br]as a great amplifier. 0:43:49.025,0:43:53.390 If you start with[br]an authoritarian society, 0:43:53.414,0:43:55.974 the coronavirus,[br]with all its lockdowns and so on, 0:43:55.998,0:44:00.807 has the potential of making it[br]even a more totalitarian society. 0:44:00.831,0:44:03.022 If people place their trust, however, 0:44:03.046,0:44:04.236 on the social sector, 0:44:04.260,0:44:07.212 on the ingenuity of social innovators, 0:44:07.236,0:44:09.164 then the pandemic, as in Taiwan, 0:44:09.188,0:44:11.400 actually strengthens our democracy, 0:44:11.424,0:44:14.728 so that people feel, truly,[br]that everybody can think of something 0:44:14.752,0:44:18.294 that improves the welfare[br]of not just Taiwan, 0:44:18.318,0:44:21.322 but pretty much everybody[br]else in the world. 0:44:21.346,0:44:22.791 And so, my point here 0:44:22.815,0:44:27.577 is that the great amplifier[br]comes if no matter you want it or not, 0:44:27.601,0:44:32.210 but the society, what they can do,[br]is do what Taiwan did after SARS. 0:44:32.234,0:44:34.702 In 2003, when SARS came, 0:44:34.726,0:44:36.917 we had to shut down an entire hospital, 0:44:36.941,0:44:40.845 barricading it with no definite[br]termination date. 0:44:40.869,0:44:42.323 It was very traumatic, 0:44:42.347,0:44:45.879 everybody above the age of 30[br]remembers how traumatic it was. 0:44:45.903,0:44:47.102 The municipalities 0:44:47.126,0:44:50.020 and the central government[br]were saying very different things, 0:44:50.044,0:44:51.871 and that is why after SARS, 0:44:51.895,0:44:54.998 the constitutional courts[br]charged the legislature 0:44:55.022,0:44:57.450 to set up the system as you see today, 0:44:57.474,0:44:58.831 and also that is why, 0:44:58.855,0:45:02.117 when people responding[br]to that crisis back in 2003 0:45:02.141,0:45:06.347 built this very robust response system[br]that there's early drills. 0:45:06.371,0:45:08.569 So just as the Sunflower Occupy, 0:45:08.593,0:45:13.418 because of the crisis in trust[br]let us build new tools 0:45:13.442,0:45:15.276 that put trust first, 0:45:15.300,0:45:19.998 I think the coronavirus is the chance[br]for everybody who have survived 0:45:20.022,0:45:21.183 through the first wave 0:45:21.207,0:45:26.529 to settle on a new set of norms[br]that will reinforce your founding values, 0:45:26.553,0:45:30.596 instead of taking on alien values[br]in the name of survival. 0:45:32.704,0:45:34.812 DB: Yeah, let's hope so, 0:45:34.836,0:45:40.348 and let's hope the rest of the world[br]is as prepared as Taiwan 0:45:40.372,0:45:42.609 the next time around. 0:45:42.633,0:45:46.109 When it comes to digital[br]democracy, though, 0:45:46.133,0:45:47.617 and digital citizenship, 0:45:47.641,0:45:49.649 where do you see that going, 0:45:49.673,0:45:52.289 both in Taiwan and maybe[br]in the rest of the world? 0:45:53.108,0:45:56.139 AT: Well, I have my job description here, 0:45:56.163,0:45:57.474 which I will read to you. 0:45:57.498,0:46:00.875 It's literally my job description[br]and the answer to that question. 0:46:00.899,0:46:02.049 And so, here goes. 0:46:02.474,0:46:04.982 When we see the internet of things, 0:46:05.006,0:46:07.206 let's make it the internet of beings. 0:46:07.657,0:46:09.847 When we see virtual reality, 0:46:09.871,0:46:12.093 let's make it a shared reality. 0:46:12.728,0:46:14.831 When we see machine learning, 0:46:14.855,0:46:17.322 let's make it collaborative learning. 0:46:17.758,0:46:20.432 When we see user experience, 0:46:20.456,0:46:23.019 let's make it about human experience. 0:46:23.361,0:46:26.369 And whenever we hear[br]the singularity is near, 0:46:26.393,0:46:28.133 let us always remember 0:46:28.157,0:46:30.228 the plurality is here. 0:46:30.942,0:46:32.542 Thank you for listening. 0:46:33.379,0:46:34.680 DB: Wow. 0:46:34.704,0:46:36.729 I have to give that a little clap, 0:46:36.753,0:46:38.020 that was beautiful. 0:46:38.625,0:46:39.775 (Laughs) 0:46:40.243,0:46:41.625 Quite a job description too. 0:46:41.649,0:46:43.692 So, conservative anarchist, 0:46:43.716,0:46:47.032 digital minister,[br]and with that job description -- 0:46:47.056,0:46:48.289 that's pretty impressive. 0:46:48.313,0:46:49.913 AT: A poetician, yes. 0:46:50.279,0:46:52.223 DB (Laughs) 0:46:52.858,0:46:57.527 So I struggle to imagine 0:46:57.551,0:47:01.011 an adoption of these techniques in the US, 0:47:01.035,0:47:04.874 and that may be my pessimism weighing in. 0:47:04.898,0:47:09.815 But what words of hope do you have[br]for the US, as we cope with COVID? 0:47:11.701,0:47:15.462 AT: Well, as I mentioned,[br]during SARS in Taiwan, 0:47:15.486,0:47:20.099 nobody imagined we could have[br]CECC and a cute spokesdog. 0:47:20.123,0:47:22.896 Before the Sunflower movement,[br]during a large protest, 0:47:22.920,0:47:27.260 there was, I think, half a million[br]people on the street, and many more. 0:47:27.284,0:47:31.406 Nobody thought that we could have[br]a collective intelligence system 0:47:31.430,0:47:34.200 that puts open government data 0:47:34.224,0:47:36.994 as a way to rebuild citizen participation. 0:47:37.018,0:47:38.993 And so, never lose hope. 0:47:39.017,0:47:44.631 As my favorite singer, Leonard Cohen --[br]a poet, also -- is fond of saying, 0:47:44.655,0:47:46.345 "Ring the bells that still can ring 0:47:46.369,0:47:49.004 and forget any perfect offering. 0:47:49.028,0:47:53.353 There is a crack in everything[br]and that is how the light gets in." 0:47:55.149,0:47:56.299 WPR: Wow. 0:47:57.320,0:47:58.527 WPR: That's so beautiful, 0:47:58.551,0:48:02.447 and it feels like such a great message[br]to, sort of, leave the audience with, 0:48:02.471,0:48:03.767 and sharing the sentiment 0:48:03.791,0:48:07.475 that everyone seems to be so grateful[br]for what you've shared, Audrey, 0:48:07.499,0:48:13.355 and all the great information[br]and insight into Taiwan's strategies. 0:48:14.502,0:48:15.653 AT: Thank you. 0:48:15.677,0:48:16.827 WPR: And David -- 0:48:17.661,0:48:20.312 DB: I was just going to say,[br]thank you so much for that, 0:48:20.336,0:48:22.462 thank you for that beautiful[br]job description, 0:48:22.486,0:48:26.746 and for all the wisdom you shared[br]in rapid-fire fashion. 0:48:26.770,0:48:29.922 I think it wasn't just one idea[br]that you shared, 0:48:29.946,0:48:32.926 but maybe, I don't know, 20, 30, 40? 0:48:32.950,0:48:34.750 I lost count at some point. 0:48:35.855,0:48:37.958 AT: Well, it's called[br]Ideas Worth Spreading, 0:48:37.982,0:48:39.259 it's a plural form. 0:48:39.283,0:48:41.000 (Laughter) 0:48:41.363,0:48:42.514 DB: Very true. 0:48:42.538,0:48:45.230 Well, thank you so much for joining us. 0:48:45.254,0:48:46.405 WPR: Thank you, Audrey. 0:48:46.429,0:48:48.355 DB: And I wish you luck with everything. 0:48:48.857,0:48:51.225 AT: Thank you, and have a good local time. 0:48:51.249,0:48:52.399 Stay safe.