...on an interpersonal basis,

institutionally? Not terribly much,

because most of the lethal, toxic, deadly racism that African American people experience,

and that other people of colour experience in this country,

does not come from them.

It comes from moral, fair-minded people who believe that they are lovers of justice,

church goers, people who experience themselvesas decent and actually very nice folk.

And it is there that I find my fear.

Back to the question of what it means to be white.

I think what it means to be white in part

is that you have the privilege of blaming people of colour

for their own victimization under white supremacy.

I've heard you say that to me.

I've heard you say that to him.

I've heard you say that to him.

I've heard you say it to him.

I've heard you say it to, uh, every person of colour in the room

who challenged your perception of yourself in the world.

That is part of what it means to be white.

[David C] Maybe that's part of the answer.

That we feel that the field is wide open,

and each man can stand on his own...

[Victor] No no. Each man does not stand on his own.

Some men stand on other men, and other women.

Light skinned men, men from Europe stand on the heads and the parts

of men and women and children of colour.

That is.... and of course you also stand on the heads of white women.

But no, it's not a question of every man standing on his own ground.

All of the ground damn near of this planet has been taken

from almost all of the people of colour on this planet.

You know, Australia was a black continent.

Africa was a black continent

And if the people themselves were not taken from Africa,

then everything of value was taken from Africa to the extent that that was possible.

North America was a red continent.

South America was a red continent.

You are NOT stading on your own ground.

You are standing on RED ground.

And THAT's what it means to be white.

To say that you're standing on your own ground and standing on somebody else's.

And then mystify the whole process so it seems like you're not doing that.

White. Why is being white such a unique thing?

Why is it such a, an important thing?

I've never felt that way.

[Roberto]It is kind of... y'kow...

[David C] Well it must be. You're telling me that being white is special.

And I'm not feeling special.

And I've never felt special because I was white.

You've pointed out to me where I have racial prejudisms.

And I've expressed that innocently, and naively, by just little questions & statement that I've made.

Um. Yeah. Maybe I really am that way.

[Gordon] I have a real difficult time talking with you about your experience.

I can relate to their frustration.

It just doesn't feel like anything's getting through.

[Hugh] I'm working up my courage to ask you something, a request.

And also there's a question with it.

The request is for you to not give up on David, to go after him.

I'm not able to get through,

and many in the room are not able to get through.

And we've given statistics, and we've given personal stories, and we've given histories,

and we've dadadadada.

We've yelled, we've screamed, we've cried, you know, it's not getting through.

I'm sure you've met other white people that you just have said

"bye, forget it, I'm not, I don't need to deal with you"

you know, that kind of thing.

I don't have the privilege of not dealing with the Davids in the world.

So I'm askin', I'm askin' you to do that.

I'm actually boldly expecting you to do that.

[laughing]

If I were standing in front of a whole room full of white people,

I would tell them much of what I've told some of the men in this group this weekend,

the white men in this group.

I would tell them that it's their responsibility to go educate their white brothers & sisters.

I would tell them it's their, that it's my expectation,

I expect them to eliminate racism.

I expect them to go out and intervene whenever they see racism going on.

And I expect them to be as outraged about racism as I am outraged by racism,

as black people are outraged,

as Asians are outraged,

as Indians are outraged.

I expect that of them,

and that's what I would tell them.

I would tell them what I expect,

I'll tell them what I, I'd tell them what I never want to hear from them again.

I never wanna hear stuff about um, how my experience is not valid,

or why can't I just pull myself up by my bootstraps.

Those are things that I would tell them about.

And I'd tell them that they've gotta end it. They've gotta end it.

This morning, I felt this ray of hope and optimism, when you shared that you get nervous

when you would go down to San Francisco into an ethnically diverse neighbourhood,

and that you actually got in touch with those messages,

whether they were given to you directly, taught to you directly, or not,

or somehow that you felt how these things just started to come over you.

[Lee Mun Wah] Why is that important to you...

[Yutaka] Because I just sort of felt that you finally connected with some feelings,

and getting down here, instead of being up here in the uh, frontal lobes,

and analyzing every everything, and looking at everything rational.

'Cause a lot of the fears or the anger, isn't rational.

[David C] It's probably the looks that you get.

I think that's where it comes from.

The looks, of the individuals,

uh, they stand on the corners and, uh, "what are you doin' here?" y'know?

And they make me feel unwanted.

I think that's what I feel.

[Yutaka] Yeah.As pickup trucks do...

[laughing]

guys with, cowboy, sitting there, you pull up in the gas station...

I know my feelings are very opposed to some of yours,

and I don't understand why you have all this intense anger, and emotions,

why it's so difficult for you to just be yourselves,

and make your place.

Wh... I think that's the big difference here.

We white men don't have this comraderie if you want, that you coloureds have.

We, we we have, we don't go out and organize, we don't go out and have discussions,

we just do our stuff, whatever our stuff is, I guess.

I see that we're living in 2 completely different consciousnesses,

and, y'know, I think that I get yours, and that I have to be able to understand yours in order to survive.

You live in a world where it's not necessary in most instances for you to understand

my consciousness and my experience.

It's like one of those parking garages with the spikes coming up.

You know, you live in the world where when you drive your car past, the spikes lay down.

And I live in the world, and the men of colour here live in the world where

when we come up to the spikes, man, they're facing right at us.

The thought comes to me, Victor, you're going the wrong direction.

If the spikes are opposing you,

does that ever occur to you, that you're going the wrong direction?

That's a beautiful statement to me, that I'm going the wrong direction.

It's a marvelous illustration of the consciousness of white supremacy.

Well, let's not say white supremacy...

[Victor] Well, I...

that's what I want to say...

[David C] This is where as you speak this analogy,

and I'm thinking to myself "golly, why does it always have to be in opposition

to the way things are structured?"

And I constantly sit here and think "why is he taking this direction?"

Why don't they as a group, why don't you with your people, look for something within yourselves

that can make you feel equal to us?

Because what I hear is you are not equal, and I do not feel that.

[Lee Mun Wah] So what's leeping you from believing that that's happening to Victor?

Just believe it, not to know why that's happening to him,

but what's keeping you from believing that that's happening...

[David C] Because it seems like such a harsh life, and I just don't want to believe.

I would assume, Victor, that your life is really that hard, difficult, and unpleasant,

[Lee Mun Wah] What would it mean David then if the life really was that harsh?

What would that mean in your life, if it really was that harsh...

[David C] It would be a travesty of life.

You have here something that shouldn't exist.

[Lee Mun Wah] And so what if it does?

What if the world were not as you thought?

That it actually is happening to lots of human beings on this earth,

what if it actually were, and you didn't know about it? What would that mean to you?

Well that's very saddening.

[voice cracking] You don't want to believe that man can be so cruel to himself or his own kind.

I do not want to accept that it has to be that way... maybe it <i>is</i>,

and it must be, because you express it and, the others in the group express that it is.

From here I can work with you.

I do not find you to be an enemy.

Aggressive, and frightening when you become very animated and agitated, but...

[Victor] We spend a lot of time being nice,

and conciliatory, and thoughtful, and careful.

I don't want to be exciteable with you about it.

I become excitable

when I feel like there's no way for my humanity to get affirmed,

if I can't say no with my whole aliveness to being mistreated or invalidated,

then, yeah, then I'm dead, I'm as good as dead.

If there were some way that I could be of use and service to you, I would.

I don't know how. I've never looked at that possibility.

I think how you could help me is to begin to understand yourself better.

I don't need help from you or from white folks,

as much as I need a sense of fairness, which is lacking,

and as much as I need a sense of awareness about this invisible protection that you have,

and this invisible privilege that you have...

When Victor was telling you about you being asleep, not being conscious of your privilege,

and taking it for granted,

it was revealed to me that that is true when you referred to us as "you coloureds",

because I find that is a very demeaning term.

I find it alienating,

and I've heard it in the context of referring to people of colour in a negative fashion.

And it's painful for me to hear it.

How would you like me to address you?

Well, not as "you anything".

Not "you people", not "you coloureds", not "you Asians", not "you blacks", not "you Latinos".

[David C] You David.

[David L] It's people of colour, or David if you want to talk about non-whites,

I'm more comfortable with that,

cause when you say "you", it's sort of, um, it's alienating.

You bastards, you pigs, you lowlifes, you no-good people, you people of colour,

that's how it feels.

I know I have talked to black people who have said you know

you have immigrants that come to this country and they can't speak a word of the language,

except for one thing.

They can all say "nigger".

Racism between whites and people of colour isn't the only racism that exists.

There's racism amongst people of colour.

It was dusk, it was dark,

this whole group of black people they're

going home, and I had this anxiety, this tension,

and I said why am I so, y'know, what's this big deal,

and then I started to relax and I said these people are just going home from work.

Just like me.

We're all waiting at the busstop,

and as soon as I opened my eyes and scanned, and released myself from all this fear.

But it still comes up, I get frightened,

you guys are powerful, you guys got a lot of power.

Certain Asian people have reacted toward me, and that really hurt me

because I felt they were, uh, they took their cues from white people.

You know, like, I've walked by Asian women, and you can see them tense up.

And that really bothered me,

that here was somebody who is another minority,

and yet they had all these, um, they treated me in a way that they wouldn't want to be treated.

It was like they were treating me like some kind of thug off the street, and I really hated that.

At the table behind us were 2, um, young black women,

and they're laughing and then looking over at my table where I was sitting,

and I heard one say "all Chinese look alike".

I got up and I walked over to them,

and they just wouldn't look at me,

they kept kind of giggling not looking at me.

And I said I heard you, I heard what you said and I disagree with that.

Do you think all blacks look alike?

And I came back to my car and there was a motorcycle parked in front of it,

and I looked around, and there was a black man in a motorcycle helmet

getting money out of the money machine.

And I was pissed...