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[ APPLAUSE, CHEERING... ]
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[ GAIL DRAKES ] Right? Right? Yeah.
Let me just say, I agree completely.
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I so approve that message.
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[ LAUGHTER ]
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So good afternoon.
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I'd like to welcome you all
to this afternoon's event,
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"Black Female Voices, Who is Listening?",
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a public dialogue between bell hooks
and Melissa Harris-Perry,
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the last public event in bell hooks'
week-long residency at The New School.
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My name is Gail Drakes,
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and I am the director of
the Office of Social Justice Initiatives,
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housed within the Office of the Provost,
here in The New School.
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The office seeks to both support and amplify
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the efforts of those who are working throughout
the university to more fully realize
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the New Schools progressive vision
as reflected in all aspects of our institution.
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Having just arrived in The New School in August,
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I can say that the bell hooks residency
has been a highlight in my time here.
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And that is not only thanks to insights
shared at various events this week,
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but because of the excitement it's generated
within the New School community.
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In the week leading up to the residency,
it seemed that at any given moment,
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just walking down the street, or entering an elevator,
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you could very likely overhear conversations and
reflections amongst students, faculty, and staff,
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on bell hooks and her work.
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So it is my hope that while
this week-long residency is ending,
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that those conversations and reflections
on the significance of bell hooks' work
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can continue and expand here at The New School.
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Of course, I would like to thank-
I would like us all to thank
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those who made this event possible,
and the entire residency possible.
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So please join me in a round of applause for
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Stephanie Browner, Dean of Eugene Lang College,
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Judy Pryor-Ramirez and Catherine Smith of Lang
Office of Civic Engagement and Social Justice,
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Heather O'Brien, assistant to the Dean,
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and everyone at both Berea and the New School
who helped coordinate these events.
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[ APPLAUSE ]
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I do have to announce a small change
in our schedule.
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Unfortunately, our guests do have
to leave immediately after the conversation,
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and regret that they will not be able
to sign books as planned,
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but I am very grateful that we're going
to still be able to enjoy the conversation.
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So I have the honor of introducing these women,
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who I know for so many of us in the room,
truly need no introduction.
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But then I am still very pleased to offer this reminder
of the accomplishment of our guest today.
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bell hooks is among the leading public intellectuals
of her generation.
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Born in Hopkinsville, Kentucky, in 1952, she grew
up in a working-class family with six siblings.
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hooks received her B.A.
from Stanford University in 1973,
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her M.A. in 1976 from the University of Wisconsin,
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and her Ph.D. in 1983 from the
University of California Santa Cruz,
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with her dissertation on author Toni Morrison.
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Her use of a pseudonym is intended to honor both
her grandmother, whose name she took,
& her mother.
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While her name's unconventional lower-casing
signifies what is most important in her works--
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"the substance of books, not who I am".
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hooks' writing cover a broad range of topics
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including teaching, gender, class, and race--
the idea of a white supremacist capitalist patriarchy.
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She strongly believes that these topics
cannot be dealt with separately,
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but must be understood as interconnected and linked
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in the production and perpetuation of
systems of oppression and class domination.
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A prevalent topic in her most recent writing
is community and communion--
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the ability of loving communities to overcome
race, class, and gender inequalities.
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hooks has written over 30 books,
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including personal memoirs, poetry collections,
and children's books,
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as well as numerous scholarly
and mainstream articles.
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She has taught in several colleges and universities,
lectured widely in public forums,
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and appeared in several documentary films.
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Mmm. [ LAUGHTER ] It's a bell hooks bio, a lot
going on there! I gotta hydrate! [LAUGHTER ]
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Melissa Harris-Perry is the host of MSNBC's
Melissa Harris-Perry. [ CHEERING ]
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The show airs on Saturdays and Sundays,
which some of you seem to know, probably,
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from 10 AM to noon, Eastern time.
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Harris-Perry is a professor of political science
at Tulane University,
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where she's the founding director of
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the Anna Julia Cooper Project on Gender,
Race, & Politics In The South.
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Harris-Perry is author of the well-received new book
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"Sister Citizen: Shame, Stereotypes, and Black
Women in America", published by Yale 2011,
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and the award-winning text
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"Barbershops, Bibles, and BET: Everyday Talk and
Black Political Thought",
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published by Princeton University Press in 2004.
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Professor Harris-Perry is a columnist for
The Nation Magazine,
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where she writes a monthly column,
also titled "Sister Citizen".
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She lives in New Orleans with her husband,
James Perry,
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and is a mother of a terrific daughter, Parker.
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While these bios offer considerable insight
into all they've done,
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they can't fully represent the effect
they've had on so many.
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Melissa Harris-Perry, Empress of Nerdland,
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check out her #nerdland hashtag on Twitter
if you don't know what I mean,
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has used her show on MSNBC
to expand the notion
of what is political,
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and to amplify the voices of those we rarely, if ever,
see represented on cable news.
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She brings the full force of her passion, personality,
and intellect to her show,
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and changed what we thought was possible
on a cable news show.
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And bell hooks. [ LAUGHING ]
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There are many ways to determine the reach and
power of someone's work as a writer and academic.
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Often we think about number of reviews, the number
of times one is cited by other scholars, etc.
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But to understand the significance
of bell hooks' work,
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you must think in terms of the number of
lives touched and world-views transformed.
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While I navigate a society that offers
such a painfully narrow representation
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of who can be a public intellectual,
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I take heart and remember that
it has been bell hooks' books
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that I've so often seen in the hands of Black Women,
as they would ride the bus home from work.
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And it was the insight from her books,
dog-eared, re-read, and well-loved,
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that helped inform the work of a generation of
cultural workers, activists, and feminist scholars,
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who are now impressive in their own right.
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So I just want to say, both personally
and on behalf of all of us assembled here,
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a sincere thank you to both of these women
for all the ways in which they've served to help us
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re-imagine what is possible at the intersection of
education, public life, and the struggle for freedom.
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And thank you for giving us all the opportunity
to listen in to this conversation today.
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Everyone, please help me welcome
bell hooks & Melissa Harris-Perry.
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[ APPLAUSE & CHEERING... ]
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[ bell hooks ] I'm not used to being
with a celebrity. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ]
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[ Melissa Harris-Perry ] Oh! [ LAUGHTER ] Yeah,
I'm pretty sure in this crowd, you're the celebrity.
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[ BOTH LAUGHING ]
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So we were trying to figure out how to get started
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and I wanted to start by just picking up on
that last insight about the fact that
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none of us come to Black Feminism
except through you.
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And it--I was just recently on the campus of
Bennett College, in Greensboro North Carolina,
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and it was a kind of a wonderful moment like this,
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where I rarely get a chance--where I was standing
and looking out over the chapel and...
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and it was all African-American women and girls
and all of the faculty, in their academic regalia,
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was kind of a great moment.
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But one of the freshman came up to me afterward
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and put her hand on my arm
and fairly breathlessly said,
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[whispering] "Have you read bell hooks?"
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[ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ] Um--
and I thought, "Uh-huh. Yep." [ LAUGHING ]
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[ b.h. ] I am 20 years older than this baby up here,
and one of the things that I thought about is,
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my early work focused so much
on the question of finding our voice.
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And I was thinking about how
Melissa represents a generational shift,
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because she has this whole national voice,
and so part of what we want to talk about is,
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has there been a meaningful concrete change in how
we hear, think & feel about the Black Woman's voice.
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Because many of you may have seen the show,
where Melissa is talking--was she an economist?
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[ MHP ] Uh-huh.
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[ b.h. ] And-- [ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ]
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[ MHP ] --Yes, I think that is the official title
of what Ms. [Angela] Mehta is.
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[ b.h. ] --and I was so impressed myself. It was
it was like a love moment for me,
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when Melissa just, you know, really boldly
put out there, what we know to be real and true.
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And then I was so stunned when I kept hearing
from people, "Oh, you know, she really lost it."
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And I thought, kept thinking,
"oh if this was Charlie Rose,
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if this was any number of white men
who would just boldly speak their truths?"
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She didn't raise her voice in any way.
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There was for me no sense of aggression, so then
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but once again she was turned into
the "Angry Black Woman"
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not the Insightful Brilliant Black Woman
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who just threw down in such a way
that it created a sense of awe.
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And so that then gave me pause in thinking about
on one hand, has there been a shift,
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or are we still pushing against a certain
characterization of the Black female voice?
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[ MHP ] Am I meant to answer?
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[ b.h. ] You're meant to discuss.
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[ MHP ] I suppose yes. So I, you know,
I'm not sure how I ended up with a television show.
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And I don't mean that to be joking.
I really am not quite sure how that happened.
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Clearly it's about a set of very odd occurrences
that were part of this moment historically
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where you end up with an African-American man
as president,
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and you end up with the most popular commentator
on this African-American president
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being a queer woman who is out and butch
when they don't overly make her up.
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And you know, and so there's sort of a - there's sort
of a shift that occurs around representation,
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and that shift that occurs around representation
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occurs at the same time that there's a
profit motivation to get an audience, right?
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So I just don't want to miss that
there's no moment in cable news
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where people are making any kind of decision
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that isn't based on a belief that there is audience
and income and something else out there.
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So I assume--you know, you talk about
being twenty years younger
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so I come of age in exactly the right moment.
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In fact, I pretty regularly say
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the smartest thing you could've ever done
was to have been born in the 70's.
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If you were going to be born a Black girl,
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to be born in the 70's meant being born
right at the end of that Civil Rights struggle,
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but before the backlash got really ugly,
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in the one moment when there were
integrated public schools in the South.
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Just for that one second before white flight took all...
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took all the resources out of the public schools
in the South
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right at that moment so that when I graduate from
college, we're in an economic upswing & there are jobs.
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When I finished the Ph.D., people are getting
multiple academic jobs.
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Not like, searching for an adjunct position,
like there's just structurally a set of realities.
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But I don't think any of those structural realities
that let a little moment like me come through
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represents an American shift
in who we want to hear from.
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[ b.h. ] All right. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ]
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Whereas I feel, you know, enormously blessed.
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I always get annoyed with my sister when she says
she's blessed and highly-favored,
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but you know, I do want to say that I think of myself
as just of--you know,
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Melissa has a mainstream image voice
that I came up really out of nowhere.
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You know, little bell hooks writing "Ain't I a
Woman: Black Women in Feminism"
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and that sometimes I do feel like, wow.
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You know, there is this audience
that reads bell hooks,
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and tells me how my work has affected their life.
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And I think as a Black Woman writer,
that is so amazing.
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I mean when I think about Audre Lorde,
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when I think about Pat Parker,
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when I think about Zora Neale Hurston,
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I think about all the Black women writers.
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I mean, my students already don't know
who Audre Lorde is.
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They never knew who Pat was.
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You know, and I think that to be a Black woman
writer of non-fiction, and to be read,
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is to be blessed and highly-favored.
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And so I think that just as there is space now
for your voice because it's a product.
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It sells, it creates people like us running
to hear her and watch her.
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There's also that other climate of people searching
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for truly dissonant ways of thinking and being and
trying to carve out different ways to live our lives.
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And I think that's especially a tension
for Black women,
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because we haven't, as a group,
really carved out different ways to live our lives.
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[ MHP ] I wanted to ask you about that a little bit
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because there are things about the bizarro life
that I find myself living now,
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that I sometimes feel as though I'm judging against
a set of Black Feminist Standards,
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that I ultimately learned and decided
to believe in from your texts.
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So if--if the lowercase letters of bell hooks
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are in part about a recognition that
the ego is less important than the content,
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it was in fact very painful for me when MSNBC
named the show "Melissa Harris-Perry".
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And I fought it and we--I had 4,000 other
really funny names [ LAUGHTER ],
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but--and they were also--all sounded
like some other networks' shows
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but in part because I thought, no
what we're supposed to be doing is not saying,
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"Watch me! Me! It's all about me!" but instead spend
time in the content. So I don't--I guess part of what I-
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[ b.h. ] --By the way, that failed. I mean,
people became as obsessed with bell hooks--
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[ MHP ] Yeah.
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[ b.h. ] --and the lowercase did not
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ] do--
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[ MHP ] --right, yes! This is what--
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[ b.h. ] --you know, it didn't do the work
that I felt as a spiritual
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because for me it was not just a political--it was
a spiritual decision at the time, you know?
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About who am I and where do I place myself?
212
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And I didn't want to place myself, my personality,
my ego, but other people placed it.
213
00:16:08,278 --> 00:16:13,830
So they just reified and fetishized
the small bell hooks.
214
00:16:13,830 --> 00:16:21,033
So I realized, you know, how much power we don't
have over how our representations are perceived.
215
00:16:21,033 --> 00:16:27,620
And that kind of goes back to my saying that
when people think we're angry, or strident, or difficult,
216
00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:30,289
when we may not have
that perception of ourselves at all.
217
00:16:30,289 --> 00:16:34,526
When I first y'know published, Aint I A Woman,
the white women at South End Press said,
218
00:16:34,526 --> 00:16:36,732
you know, it was such an angry book.
219
00:16:36,732 --> 00:16:38,785
And I didn't know what they were talking about.
220
00:16:38,785 --> 00:16:41,283
Because again, I felt it was a clear book.
221
00:16:41,283 --> 00:16:45,566
It was a book saying things
that hadn't been said before, but anger?
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00:16:45,566 --> 00:16:47,134
You know, I'm one of these Black women
223
00:16:47,134 --> 00:16:54,036
if I'm angry, you will know that I'm angry
and I'm gonna--I'm gonna own my anger.
224
00:16:54,036 --> 00:17:00,665
And so I knew that that wasn't the case, and that
has been something that I feel is a constant battle.
225
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I've been referring a lot to
"Sweet Honey in the Rock":
226
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"when we work for freedom, we cannot rest",
227
00:17:05,529 --> 00:17:10,362
because people are constantly using
"anger" and "difficult".
228
00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:14,525
I mean I have to admit I get "difficult" now
more than "anger".
229
00:17:14,525 --> 00:17:16,329
You know, "bell is difficult."
230
00:17:16,329 --> 00:17:17,640
[ MHP ] Yeah.
231
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,435
[ b.h. ] You know, when people drop you,
or when--from publishing, or something,
232
00:17:20,435 --> 00:17:26,102
and they say "well, bell is difficult."
And it's because you raise certain kinds of images.
233
00:17:26,102 --> 00:17:35,546
And once again, I think it's about, Melissa,
that interface between our radical political integrity
234
00:17:35,546 --> 00:17:42,287
and the fact that we are in imperialist,
white-supremacist, capitalist patriarchy. So--
235
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[ MHP ] And you might be, I mean,
so I was angry at Ms. Mehta,
236
00:17:47,963 --> 00:17:52,104
her inability to see that it was patently-
237
00:17:52,104 --> 00:17:54,422
[ b.h. ] Uh-oh, mess up all my theories.
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ]
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[ MHP ] --Right--no, no, but [ AUDIENCE
LAUGHING ] but not just her.
239
00:17:57,176 --> 00:18:01,507
I was angry with the idea that we continue
to propagate this notion,
240
00:18:01,507 --> 00:18:05,176
that to be poor is somehow relaxing.
241
00:18:05,176 --> 00:18:09,762
That people are chillin on public service,
like I mean, [ AUDIENCE APPLAUDING ]
242
00:18:09,762 --> 00:18:15,482
and that, you know, that--that riskiness
is associated with wealth, right?
243
00:18:15,482 --> 00:18:19,905
So I--the only thing I push back against
is the notion that I'm irrational.
244
00:18:19,905 --> 00:18:23,236
I mean, I'm mad,
but I'm mad about something, I'm not...
245
00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:30,227
I'm not mad as an inherent aspect of my Blackness,
or my womanhood, right? But mad about something.
246
00:18:30,227 --> 00:18:34,297
And you know, I get difficult, but I am difficult.
247
00:18:34,297 --> 00:18:40,536
Like, but, but so do--I mean, like, [ WHISPERING ]
so are all the white guys. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
248
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Right? And I mean, I'm legitimately not trying
to be funny, in the sense that I know...
249
00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:50,288
so I know that I come to work
after my producers come to work,
250
00:18:50,288 --> 00:18:57,954
and I'm a little bit, y'know, demanding
and a lot of times, so I--"difficult".
251
00:18:57,954 --> 00:19:04,597
But all the white boys were difficult too in
everything from the academy to general life to
252
00:19:04,597 --> 00:19:07,993
you know, right?
253
00:19:07,993 --> 00:19:14,241
And but it's as though that difficulty is presumed
to be legitimate whereas ours is illegitimate.
254
00:19:14,241 --> 00:19:15,758
[ b.h. ] Of course, you know, it's funny.
255
00:19:15,758 --> 00:19:19,213
I don't think that I'm difficult.
I think that I'm exacting.
256
00:19:19,213 --> 00:19:20,595
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
257
00:19:20,595 --> 00:19:22,459
And precise.
258
00:19:22,459 --> 00:19:27,653
And I mean, I think that words we use are very
important because I think that for me
259
00:19:27,653 --> 00:19:29,983
I mean, let's face it, folks.
260
00:19:29,983 --> 00:19:32,903
You don't be a Black woman from a working-class
background in America
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00:19:32,903 --> 00:19:37,156
and write more than thirty books
'cause you sitting around being difficult. You know?
262
00:19:37,156 --> 00:19:39,086
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING, SOME APPLAUSE ]
263
00:19:39,086 --> 00:19:44,829
That work comes out of
the amazing discipline of my life,
264
00:19:44,829 --> 00:19:48,368
which I don't necessarily attribute to my ego or me,
265
00:19:48,368 --> 00:19:53,011
but to the recognition of what it takes
to get a particular job done,
266
00:19:53,011 --> 00:19:57,475
and that will, as many of you have experienced
in this room,
267
00:19:57,475 --> 00:20:04,630
to write, to put other things aside to write,
to sit at my computer
268
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:10,025
and key in the "Beasts of The Southern Wild" piece
269
00:20:10,025 --> 00:20:11,925
while I am sitting there crying
270
00:20:11,925 --> 00:20:16,725
because I just can't take in another image
of an abused Black child
271
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being represented as entertaining.
272
00:20:20,653 --> 00:20:25,115
And I am sitting there, and I am writing, but I'm
also hurting. [ VOICE STRAINED WITH EMOTION ]
273
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I'm hurting because we can't get past the construct-
ion of Black children as little mini-adults
274
00:20:32,254 --> 00:20:36,929
whose innocence we don't have to protect.
275
00:20:36,929 --> 00:20:43,051
You know, who we can consider "cute" if they're
being slapped around by an alcoholic father.
276
00:20:43,051 --> 00:20:45,807
You know, not to mention all the other things
we could name.
277
00:20:45,807 --> 00:20:52,103
[ MHP ] Well, and then the abuse not only of
the character, but actually of Quvenzhané Wallis,
278
00:20:52,103 --> 00:20:56,788
by Black and white communities,
in the immediate aftermath of that film,
279
00:20:56,788 --> 00:21:00,729
which I really, really disliked that film.
280
00:21:00,729 --> 00:21:04,739
And watched it in New Orleans, sat in a theater
in New Orleans and watched it,
281
00:21:04,739 --> 00:21:07,801
and came home and read your piece.
282
00:21:07,801 --> 00:21:11,504
And in fact, like the moment of Bennett students
saying "Have you read bell hooks?",
283
00:21:11,504 --> 00:21:14,964
coming back and reading your piece and saying,
"Oh bell, bell's back."
284
00:21:14,964 --> 00:21:22,427
And in part, that the pain, the anger, but also that
285
00:21:22,427 --> 00:21:24,858
this was one of those movies
that we were supposed to like,
286
00:21:24,858 --> 00:21:29,149
and we were supposed to say good and nice things
about, and was supposed to be "artsy" and "funny"
287
00:21:29,149 --> 00:21:31,113
and you're supposed to be "deep" and "get it",
288
00:21:31,113 --> 00:21:36,532
and you're willingness to say, "Nope, the abuse
of a Young Black girl's body as--is not deep.
289
00:21:36,532 --> 00:21:38,639
It's appalling."
290
00:21:38,639 --> 00:21:46,801
[ b.h. ] And also, why can't we teach other people
to recognize that this is traumatic, and not "funny",
291
00:21:46,801 --> 00:21:50,075
and not "cute", and that's--that's that again,
292
00:21:50,075 --> 00:21:53,973
"when we work for freedom, we cannot rest"
because it's a constant struggle.
293
00:21:53,973 --> 00:21:58,430
I mean, it's interesting because,
I can tell you right now.
294
00:21:58,430 --> 00:22:03,626
Ms. Melissa liked "Twelve Years of Slavery",
and I really hated it.
295
00:22:03,626 --> 00:22:10,619
I thought that, or I won't even say I hated it.
Nah, sentimental clap-trap. [ A FEW LAUGHS ]
296
00:22:10,619 --> 00:22:13,331
But one of the things I felt about it,
297
00:22:13,331 --> 00:22:19,878
and--'cause we don't want to just sit here and act
like we schmooze and agree on everything
298
00:22:19,878 --> 00:22:25,149
I felt that it actually negated
the Black female voice.
299
00:22:25,149 --> 00:22:33,678
That she was given voice only in so much as she
gave expression to Black male emotional feeling.
300
00:22:33,678 --> 00:22:40,130
That the Black male does not have to take
responsibility for his own emotional universe,
301
00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:43,395
that Patsy takes that cross.
302
00:22:43,395 --> 00:22:46,011
So it's like, okay not only are you suffering,
303
00:22:46,011 --> 00:22:54,769
but you have to take on you the added burden
of articulating this Black man's pain to him, so--
304
00:22:54,769 --> 00:22:56,856
[ MHP ] So, so how much that though
305
00:22:56,856 --> 00:23:02,692
and this is part of why I've approached this film
so differently than the other slave films
306
00:23:02,692 --> 00:23:10,048
how much of that is because it is the reading of
his autobiography, his slave narrative,
307
00:23:10,048 --> 00:23:12,077
and so that is what he does to her?
308
00:23:12,077 --> 00:23:15,973
Like he does in fact create Patsy in that way,
in that text,
309
00:23:15,973 --> 00:23:18,451
so the film reproduces the thing
310
00:23:18,451 --> 00:23:24,037
that he as Black patriarch -even in the context of enslavement- does to her?
311
00:23:24,037 --> 00:23:25,794
[ b.h. ] Yeah, honey, [ A FEW LAUGHS ]
312
00:23:25,794 --> 00:23:32,373
but if the film-maker can create for us
that scene with Mrs. Shaw that is not in the book,
313
00:23:32,373 --> 00:23:37,291
then why can't he--I mean, one of the things that
I stand on all the time
314
00:23:37,291 --> 00:23:42,733
film does not exist for the purpose of
giving us reality.
315
00:23:42,733 --> 00:23:48,051
And I always say, like, if my life is shit, I don't want
to go pay $10 or $12 [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
316
00:23:48,051 --> 00:23:53,515
to see it displayed so that we have to ask ourselves.
317
00:23:53,515 --> 00:23:59,289
I guess what I want for us all the time, Melissa,
which some of us feel happens on your show,
318
00:23:59,289 --> 00:24:04,954
is a pushing of the imagination--a broadening of
how we think about things,
319
00:24:04,954 --> 00:24:08,850
and not this sort of narrowing-down of
how we think about things.
320
00:24:08,850 --> 00:24:14,939
And I feel like, you know, I'm tired of the
naked, raped, beaten Black woman body.
321
00:24:14,939 --> 00:24:21,943
I want to see an image of Black femaleness
that alters our universe in some way.
322
00:24:21,943 --> 00:24:27,357
I mean, Melissa--which was a question I was dying
to ask her, so I can ask her tonight
323
00:24:27,357 --> 00:24:33,282
in "Sister Citizen", she really writes critically
about Michelle Obama, for example,
324
00:24:33,282 --> 00:24:36,066
as representing that kind of shift.
325
00:24:36,066 --> 00:24:40,360
That we have this transformative image
326
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:46,626
and I feel like, yes, we started out with this
incredible powerful Black female voice,
327
00:24:46,626 --> 00:24:50,941
Michelle Obama, and it got smallerand smaller,
328
00:24:50,941 --> 00:24:58,551
and I wonder if you think that. Or if you think that
it kept the momentum that it began with?
329
00:24:58,551 --> 00:25:05,125
[ MHP ] So, for me, First Lady Obama
is navigating multiple spaces,
330
00:25:05,125 --> 00:25:11,140
and in some ways, it has retained its bigness and
its value, and in other ways it has diminished.
331
00:25:11,140 --> 00:25:14,197
Most importantly, for me, I think there was
an active, purposeful,
332
00:25:14,197 --> 00:25:18,084
and I think she she has said it to us,
333
00:25:18,084 --> 00:25:27,931
desire to remove from public space that idea of
the Black woman who emasculates her husband.
334
00:25:27,931 --> 00:25:35,702
That she very actively and purposefully moved back
from the partnership model that we saw initially.
335
00:25:35,702 --> 00:25:38,786
Not only partnership, but actually,
an active critique of her husband.
336
00:25:38,786 --> 00:25:42,060
So when Senator Obama is running in 2007-8,
337
00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:45,645
she has a variety of punch-lines,
one of which includes:
338
00:25:45,645 --> 00:25:50,642
"Oh yeah, you know, Barack is stinky
in the morning, and he leaves his socks around."
339
00:25:50,642 --> 00:25:55,818
She had another line that was about feeling like
a single-parent for much of their early marriage
340
00:25:55,818 --> 00:25:58,695
because he was working down-state.
341
00:25:58,695 --> 00:26:00,445
And so she was taking on all the parenting.
342
00:26:00,445 --> 00:26:04,581
She was the primary bread-winner
and she was taking on all the parenting.
343
00:26:04,581 --> 00:26:08,336
And then there was also a narrative about
her relationship with Mama Robinson,
344
00:26:08,336 --> 00:26:12,713
and the importance that Mama Robinson had
in stepping in as the second parent
345
00:26:12,713 --> 00:26:16,297
when state Senator Barack Obama was down-state.
346
00:26:16,297 --> 00:26:19,683
And that narrative went away after the primaries.
347
00:26:19,683 --> 00:26:24,133
So as soon as, basically they got through,
about South Carolina,
348
00:26:24,133 --> 00:26:29,751
and it became clear that it was very possible that
Barack Obama could win the Democratic Primary,
349
00:26:29,751 --> 00:26:36,109
Michelle Obama "the wife" became the
much more traditional political wife,
350
00:26:36,109 --> 00:26:39,022
who supports in sort of a doe-eyed way,
her husband.
351
00:26:39,022 --> 00:26:41,368
But that wasn't the totality.
352
00:26:41,368 --> 00:26:43,821
So on that hand, yes, I would agree,
I think she shrinks.
353
00:26:43,821 --> 00:26:46,733
But the other thing I offer though,
is this possibility
354
00:26:46,733 --> 00:26:54,040
that she's performing two other things that I do find
to be a sustaining pushing of the imagination.
355
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:55,730
One is about her body,
356
00:26:55,730 --> 00:27:03,732
and this initial desire to dissect First Lady Obama
in all the ways that we have dissected women,
357
00:27:03,732 --> 00:27:06,458
Black women in particular,
since the Venus Hottentot.
358
00:27:06,458 --> 00:27:10,546
And so rather than talking about Michelle Obama
as an embodied person,
359
00:27:10,546 --> 00:27:12,197
we would talk about her arms.
360
00:27:12,197 --> 00:27:16,021
"I want Michelle Obama's arms."
"I want Michelle Obama's behind." "I want"--right?
361
00:27:16,021 --> 00:27:20,720
And so it was a rhetorical and public dissection
of her into parts,
362
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,601
so that we weren't talking about her,
but talking about the parts of her body.
363
00:27:23,601 --> 00:27:30,150
Now for me, the immediate rational reasonable
response to that is to stop performing your body,
364
00:27:30,150 --> 00:27:32,748
to--when people are talking about your body
to cover.
365
00:27:32,748 --> 00:27:34,418
I mean that's what our grandmothers taught us, right?
366
00:27:34,418 --> 00:27:36,728
"Girl, hold it--hold it in. Keep it tight," right?
367
00:27:36,728 --> 00:27:41,343
Because people--but instead, the First Lady did
this sort of extraordinary thing where she was like,
368
00:27:41,343 --> 00:27:43,970
"Oh, so you want to scrutinize? Here I am."
369
00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:45,847
She went even more sleeveless.
370
00:27:45,847 --> 00:27:47,726
She had this amazing--I encourage you to go home
371
00:27:47,726 --> 00:27:51,807
and Google the--just put in "hula hoops"
and "First Lady Obama" -
372
00:27:51,807 --> 00:27:56,480
there's this incredible series of her in the first spring
that they're in the White House of Spring 2009
373
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,739
and she is running - she's this 6-foot-tall Black
woman, barefoot, hula-hooping,
374
00:28:01,739 --> 00:28:05,075
and running across the White House lawn,
and it is...
375
00:28:05,075 --> 00:28:09,645
Like when I say that, right, that sounds like
some kind of weird racist KKK movie, right?
376
00:28:09,645 --> 00:28:11,315
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
377
00:28:11,315 --> 00:28:14,312
But instead, it's like, it is completely beautiful
378
00:28:14,312 --> 00:28:19,892
and not beautiful in some like "Jackie O."
"oh she's like Jackie O."--no.
379
00:28:19,892 --> 00:28:22,688
She's embodied in this very different way,
380
00:28:22,688 --> 00:28:27,501
and the very fact that she goes into obesity politics
that in part invites scrutiny of her body,
381
00:28:27,501 --> 00:28:32,647
and then undoubtedly of her daughter's,
is sort of an unwillingness to shrink.
382
00:28:32,647 --> 00:28:35,118
So she shrinks in the wife role.
383
00:28:35,118 --> 00:28:40,698
I feel her stand up in the, in the sort of
"inviting the scrutiny of the body".
384
00:28:40,698 --> 00:28:44,310
And the last thing I'll say is,
when there was this attempt to do
385
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:47,310
--and it's the one thing I loved about
"Twelve Years a Slave"--
386
00:28:47,310 --> 00:28:50,640
to me, "Twelve Years a Slave" was the first time
387
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:56,457
that there wasn't a cinematic redemption
of the white woman slaveholder.
388
00:28:56,457 --> 00:29:04,858
And instead, they are made absolutely complicit
and evil and attached
389
00:29:04,874 --> 00:29:11,514
and there's no sense that there is some gender
equity that will--nope. [ SOME LAUGHS ]
390
00:29:11,514 --> 00:29:30,289
[ b.h. ] And you didn't see that in "Django"?
[ PROLONGED LAUGHTER ] No I mean--
391
00:29:30,289 --> 00:29:32,818
[ MHP ] I can't--I can't talk about "Django", bell.
392
00:29:32,818 --> 00:29:35,665
[ b.h. ] Oh, okay, but I have to say
that one of my favorite scenes
393
00:29:35,665 --> 00:29:40,987
is when the two very obedient Black female slaves
are on that stairway
394
00:29:40,987 --> 00:29:49,681
and Django tells them to say "goodbye to Ms. Ann",
and they've been so obedient and subservient,
395
00:29:49,681 --> 00:29:51,724
but it's like that open door of freedom,
396
00:29:51,724 --> 00:29:55,944
that when they have the opportunity to walk through
that open door of freedom,
397
00:29:55,944 --> 00:30:00,889
that hold to me at that moment--the mammy image-
is totally deconstructed.
398
00:30:00,889 --> 00:30:04,891
And they're like "goodbye" and he blows her away.
399
00:30:04,891 --> 00:30:08,810
I see that as also that reminder of complicity,
400
00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:15,414
that white women have been complicit in this
imperialist white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy.
401
00:30:15,414 --> 00:30:16,667
[ A FEW CLAPS ]
402
00:30:16,667 --> 00:30:20,751
And not just these sort of passive observers
or victims.
403
00:30:20,751 --> 00:30:22,792
[ MHP ] I feel you, I feel you. I feel you--
404
00:30:22,792 --> 00:30:23,995
[ b.h. ] -But let's not be--
405
00:30:23,995 --> 00:30:26,297
[ MHP ] But I can't--but "Django", but 'cause see...
406
00:30:26,297 --> 00:30:27,712
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ]
407
00:30:27,712 --> 00:30:31,470
'cause for me what happened in those first moments
in the movie theater, in "Twelve Years a Slave",
408
00:30:31,470 --> 00:30:33,305
when they're taken onto the ship
409
00:30:33,305 --> 00:30:35,167
and then the people who have been watching way
too much "Django" are like,
410
00:30:35,167 --> 00:30:40,230
"I can't even believe you're just gonna--why ain't
you gonna fight back?!" [ FOOT STOMP ]
411
00:30:40,230 --> 00:30:41,572
Because this is not a fantasy.
412
00:30:41,572 --> 00:30:43,907
Because this is a slave narrative--because there is
413
00:30:43,907 --> 00:30:49,551
because the scene then when he is lynched for days
is what happens when you fight.
414
00:30:49,551 --> 00:30:52,840
Because they kill Omar with a shank
in like two minutes.
415
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,117
And he had been--because for me,
I guess the reason
416
00:30:55,117 --> 00:31:00,214
the reason that that "Django" does not perform
that for me is because it's the fantasy.
417
00:31:00,214 --> 00:31:03,366
[ b.h. ] But see, I think it's all fantasy.
[ SOME "YEAH'S" FROM AUDIENCE ]
418
00:31:03,366 --> 00:31:04,630
[ MHP ] Okay.
419
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:06,608
[ b.h. ] I think it's all fantasy.
It's all fiction. It's all-
420
00:31:06,608 --> 00:31:11,279
-I mean I have to say the only slavery movie
that I can really say really touched me
421
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:16,404
was "Slavery by Another Name",
the fictive documentary.
422
00:31:16,404 --> 00:31:19,340
Because it had those real Black people.
423
00:31:19,340 --> 00:31:25,663
I mean I had the good fortune to see it at Sundance
with Eric Holder and his wife,
424
00:31:25,663 --> 00:31:30,114
whose family is part of the film,
and part of that experience.
425
00:31:30,114 --> 00:31:37,462
I, myself, okay I'ma say that
what I'm tired of in general is sentimentality.
426
00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:38,937
I mean, James Baldwin said that
427
00:31:38,937 --> 00:31:44,952
"sentimentality is the ostentatious parading of
excessive and spurious emotion.
428
00:31:44,952 --> 00:31:49,351
It is the mark of dishonesty, the inability to feel."
429
00:31:49,351 --> 00:31:52,991
So I'm actually
we can go away from particular movies.
430
00:31:52,991 --> 00:31:55,697
I'm concerned about why is it that
431
00:31:55,697 --> 00:32:03,791
there's a kind of collective response to the
plantation culture we as Black people are living in
432
00:32:03,791 --> 00:32:07,751
that has primarily to do with sentimentality.
433
00:32:07,751 --> 00:32:10,497
With people, whether we're talking about
"The Butler",
434
00:32:10,497 --> 00:32:14,366
whether we're talking about
some of Tyler Perry's stuff [ LAUGHING ],
435
00:32:14,366 --> 00:32:16,291
it's like, you know?
436
00:32:16,291 --> 00:32:20,867
I mean, let's stand and weep
and let's weep and weep.
437
00:32:20,867 --> 00:32:29,208
You know, and while we're weeping, the violence
against us globally, the global slavery, continues.
438
00:32:29,208 --> 00:32:32,808
And I'm trying to analyze it,
and maybe you have some thoughts about it,
439
00:32:32,808 --> 00:32:39,569
but why is there this obsession at this historical
moment with sentimentality and melodrama?
440
00:32:39,569 --> 00:32:43,418
'Cause you know my favorite melodrama
is imitation of life. [ APPLAUSE ]
441
00:32:44,525 --> 00:32:51,109
I'm old enough to have left [ MELODRAMATICALLY ]
"Maaaaama! I diiiiid love you!"
442
00:32:51,109 --> 00:32:52,214
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
443
00:32:52,214 --> 00:32:54,049
"I diiiid love you!"
444
00:32:54,049 --> 00:32:59,877
But again, mama don't get to hear that
'cause she dead.
445
00:32:59,877 --> 00:33:03,039
[ LAUGHTER ] And so, what are your thoughts
about that?
446
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:09,861
This sort of upsurge, I feel,
in sentimental portraits of Blackness.
447
00:33:09,861 --> 00:33:13,866
Not--and we don't have to just talk about slavery,
'cause "The Butler" certainly, you know.
448
00:33:13,866 --> 00:33:18,642
[ MHP ] Yes. [ A FEW LAUGHS ] Okay so,
so I mean, all right.
449
00:33:18,642 --> 00:33:25,918
So, okay, so there's "Django" on the one hand, then
there's "The Butler" and God help me, "The Help".
450
00:33:25,918 --> 00:33:34,530
[ AUDIENCE BOOING AND THEN BREAKING INTO LAUGHTER ] I guess--
451
00:33:34,530 --> 00:33:36,605
[ b.h. ] All of which are sentimental.
452
00:33:36,605 --> 00:33:38,493
[ MHP ] Yes, right, right.
453
00:33:38,493 --> 00:33:41,777
And so I'm just kind of running in my head what
you're saying & trying to think through this a little bit.
454
00:33:41,777 --> 00:33:52,673
It certainly felt to me like the "The Help" and
"The Butler" are popular culture
455
00:33:52,673 --> 00:33:55,427
responding to the angst of the possibility,
456
00:33:55,427 --> 00:34:00,364
not only of Black empowerment
in the personhood of President Obama,
457
00:34:00,364 --> 00:34:06,028
but also, the desire for the magical negro
to reappear to make things better.
458
00:34:06,028 --> 00:34:09,919
So that the economic downturn itself, right?
459
00:34:09,919 --> 00:34:18,170
And the sense of white America experiencing,
for the first time in 50 years,
460
00:34:18,170 --> 00:34:22,961
the unemployment rates that Black folks
have been living with for 60 years, right?
461
00:34:22,961 --> 00:34:28,420
So that the Tea Party can actively,
just weeks after President Obama's inauguration,
462
00:34:28,420 --> 00:34:34,477
can sort of take to the mall in anger about a
10% unemployment rate, and [ LAUGHING ]
463
00:34:34,477 --> 00:34:38,896
we know like 10% unemployment rate for Black
people would be cause for like, Juneteenth.
464
00:34:38,896 --> 00:34:40,539
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
465
00:34:40,539 --> 00:34:42,118
Right? We'd be happy.
466
00:34:42,118 --> 00:34:45,606
And I--so I presume that part of what happens then,
467
00:34:45,606 --> 00:34:50,211
why we need "The Butler", why we need
"The Help", and so maybe-
468
00:34:50,211 --> 00:34:54,352
and I'm gonna pause and think about maybe
this is also why we need to bring back slavery.
469
00:34:54,352 --> 00:34:56,207
But I'm not sure--I'll think about it.
470
00:34:56,207 --> 00:35:05,770
But maybe the reason we need to go engage
with them in our fictional emotional lives is
471
00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:11,383
because those negroes gave-
they solved the problems of America
472
00:35:11,383 --> 00:35:16,911
through their willingness to sacrifice
for the American project.
473
00:35:16,911 --> 00:35:20,973
And so, I mean the fact that,
I will say at the end of "Twelve Years a Slave",
474
00:35:20,973 --> 00:35:25,315
what happens--he goes to the American court
system, right? There is no "Django" fantasy,
475
00:35:25,315 --> 00:35:27,568
like the "fantasy" is that. Right?
476
00:35:27,568 --> 00:35:31,666
What the actual enslaved man does is he goes
and takes these men to court.
477
00:35:31,666 --> 00:35:39,231
There is a presumption, even in that moment,
that somehow there will be justice available.
478
00:35:39,231 --> 00:35:42,787
The thing that we actually did
in the years following emancipation
479
00:35:42,787 --> 00:35:48,173
was to run for office, and buy land, and I mean it's
480
00:35:48,173 --> 00:35:53,097
so maybe there's a desire to reconstruct
that version of Black folks
481
00:35:53,097 --> 00:35:56,100
so that we could fix what is currently wrong.
482
00:35:56,100 --> 00:35:59,720
Because that's always been our magical capacity.
483
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,204
[ b.h. ] Or so that we can simply grieve.
484
00:36:02,204 --> 00:36:06,245
We can have a vehicle for the expression
of the depth of our grief.
485
00:36:06,245 --> 00:36:08,566
Because I do believe that for some time now,
486
00:36:08,566 --> 00:36:13,344
Black people collectively have been caught
in a profound grief.
487
00:36:13,344 --> 00:36:19,724
I've been working on writing about justice & using
Martin Luther King's "Where Do We Go From Here?"
488
00:36:19,724 --> 00:36:24,235
And I'm just amazed that Dr. King
was talking about fascism.
489
00:36:24,235 --> 00:36:30,572
He was talking about the--he was so prescient that
there will be things like the Tea Party.
490
00:36:30,572 --> 00:36:34,065
And the thing that he says that's so amazing is that
491
00:36:34,065 --> 00:36:39,282
there will be this growth--"a native form"-
these are his words--"of fascism",
492
00:36:39,282 --> 00:36:42,503
as Black people press forward for equality.
493
00:36:42,503 --> 00:36:44,918
And then he says that awesome insight
494
00:36:44,918 --> 00:36:53,972
that white people would rather destroy democracy
than have racial equality.
495
00:36:53,972 --> 00:36:56,100
[ AUDIBLE AGREEMENT FROM THE AUDIENCE ]
496
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:59,436
And I think we know that that's not true
of all white people,
497
00:36:59,436 --> 00:37:05,789
but we really see that in those of us who live in very
depressed white areas, like Appalachia.
498
00:37:05,789 --> 00:37:13,574
I mean, we see it so clearly that people would rather
have white supremacy and hierarchy
499
00:37:13,574 --> 00:37:16,063
than any kind of justice.
500
00:37:16,063 --> 00:37:20,301
That people really think "Justice? You know,
those negroes have had enough."
501
00:37:20,301 --> 00:37:22,682
"We've given them enough!"
502
00:37:22,682 --> 00:37:29,421
And so I think that that's what troubles me, Melissa,
about the sentimentality.
503
00:37:29,421 --> 00:37:34,521
Because I feel it shifts us away
from the forms of analysis.
504
00:37:34,521 --> 00:37:38,334
Like, I mean, I am myself-
I've been a reader of King,
505
00:37:38,334 --> 00:37:41,323
but I've been away from
"Where Do We Go From Here?"
506
00:37:41,323 --> 00:37:48,868
and so when I read it again, and I thought, boy, King
was talking about fascism, about what we had to do,
507
00:37:48,868 --> 00:37:52,127
and so much of what he puts out we haven't done.
508
00:37:52,127 --> 00:37:54,459
The critical consciousness.
509
00:37:54,459 --> 00:38:00,650
It just, kind of, in a way, saddened me so deeply
because I think that we do live in this space-
510
00:38:00,650 --> 00:38:04,271
Black people--Brown people-
of cognitive dissonance.
511
00:38:04,271 --> 00:38:07,017
That we know white supremacy is real.
512
00:38:07,017 --> 00:38:10,628
But at the same time, we would like
to walk through our daily lives
513
00:38:10,628 --> 00:38:15,894
as though justice is real, democracy is real,
equality is real.
514
00:38:15,894 --> 00:38:22,140
I mean, if anything that I could say about
"Twelve Years of Slavery", is that it depicted that.
515
00:38:22,140 --> 00:38:26,792
That we see them walking through their lives,
thinking they've made it.
516
00:38:26,792 --> 00:38:34,718
That they can live as--as assimilated Black people
in this bourgeois white world.
517
00:38:34,718 --> 00:38:40,254
And there is something so, almost unbelievable,
518
00:38:40,254 --> 00:38:46,177
about his level of innocence about the horrific nature
of white supremacy,
519
00:38:46,177 --> 00:38:51,889
because he really believes that there is a whiteness
that will protect him.
520
00:38:51,889 --> 00:38:55,647
Like you know? And that to me is like, wow.
521
00:38:55,647 --> 00:39:02,238
If someone can come from that time period
and believe that whiteness will protect them.
522
00:39:02,238 --> 00:39:10,410
Then I think about our son, our brother Trayvon
Martin, what did he think would protect him?
523
00:39:10,410 --> 00:39:15,496
Did he think that he was in danger of losing his life?
524
00:39:15,496 --> 00:39:20,677
Or did he have that innocence again,
about whiteness?
525
00:39:20,677 --> 00:39:25,028
That many of us carry?
And many of our young people carry it, especially.
526
00:39:25,028 --> 00:39:28,678
I mean, both here at The New School,
everywhere I go,
527
00:39:28,678 --> 00:39:35,209
it is young people especially who will argue
that race has ended, that we're in the post-racial-
528
00:39:35,209 --> 00:39:36,734
go ahead, jump in.
529
00:39:36,734 --> 00:39:41,045
[ MHP ] Yeah, yeah, so I would push back
against that just a little bit.
530
00:39:41,045 --> 00:39:47,153
That young people primarily--so I do think that
millennials may think about race in ways
531
00:39:47,153 --> 00:39:52,115
that are different and more complicated, but they
ought to, I mean, 'cause the world is different.
532
00:39:52,115 --> 00:39:56,164
But that Cathy Cohen's research
out of the Black Youth Project,
533
00:39:56,164 --> 00:39:58,905
and the writings of The Black Youth Project,
100 and all of them,
534
00:39:58,905 --> 00:40:04,411
do suggest actually that because of their very close
contact with the police state and with incarceration,
535
00:40:04,411 --> 00:40:06,138
and with the ways in which this-
536
00:40:06,138 --> 00:40:11,376
so again, the racial naiveté of the kids of the 70's-
all right I'ma give that to you-
537
00:40:11,376 --> 00:40:13,784
because we were sort of in this moment, right?
538
00:40:13,784 --> 00:40:19,642
And then, even as Reagan was happening, y'know,
Bill Cosby was the, y'know, #1 rated show on TV.
539
00:40:19,642 --> 00:40:24,401
So there were--there were ways in which-
I'ma take that critique for the X generation.
540
00:40:24,401 --> 00:40:34,805
But I'm not quite willing to say that of young people
of color in their 20's, the generation one under me,
541
00:40:34,805 --> 00:40:42,258
only because the material realities of their
vulnerability are so present for them.
542
00:40:42,258 --> 00:40:46,700
Now it may be true that that population
is even more stratified--
543
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:48,881
[ b.h. ] Yes, yes.
544
00:40:48,881 --> 00:40:51,019
[ MHP ] --so for the wealthy children,
there is a different reality.
545
00:40:51,019 --> 00:40:54,074
But I don't want to give it to the whole generation-
I don't want to say young people don't know.
546
00:40:54,074 --> 00:40:57,217
And my bet is that Trayvon may not.
And so, in fact...
547
00:41:02,263 --> 00:41:09,810
So in fact so I want to come back in a minute
to using King as a source.
548
00:41:09,810 --> 00:41:11,948
Especially around an understanding of justice
549
00:41:11,948 --> 00:41:15,641
and whether or not there's also a sentimentality
that occurs around--
550
00:41:15,641 --> 00:41:17,184
[ b.h. ] Uh-oh.
551
00:41:17,184 --> 00:41:19,751
[ MHP ] --King [ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ],
552
00:41:19,751 --> 00:41:24,952
and particularly when we're unwilling to interrogate
and push King on his homophobia and sexism.
553
00:41:24,952 --> 00:41:29,800
[ APPLAUSE ] And you know, it's been-
554
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,786
as much as there has been this kind of sentimentality
around race produced by mass popular culture,
555
00:41:34,786 --> 00:41:37,594
and "The Help", and "The Butler",
556
00:41:37,594 --> 00:41:41,303
there's also been a sentimentality about King
from the critics of President Obama,
557
00:41:41,303 --> 00:41:46,025
who want to say "President Obama is no King"-
true. [ A FEW LAUGHS ]
558
00:41:46,025 --> 00:41:48,194
But then they want to say,
559
00:41:48,194 --> 00:41:53,988
"President Obama is no King because he
makes alliances" and "because he does"-
560
00:41:53,988 --> 00:41:57,911
you know, "makes compromises", and I'm like,
do y'all have any idea who King is?
561
00:41:57,911 --> 00:42:00,825
And the kinds of compromises and alliances and
562
00:42:00,825 --> 00:42:06,763
ask Fannie Lou Hamer if in fact King doesn't look
just like the critiques that we have of President Obama.
563
00:42:06,763 --> 00:42:09,805
So it's not--let me be clear--I'm not saying
we shouldn't critique President Obama,
564
00:42:09,805 --> 00:42:11,950
what I am suggesting is that when we do so,
565
00:42:11,950 --> 00:42:16,350
by holding up a vision of King that is this version
that they created on the Mall
566
00:42:16,350 --> 00:42:22,029
where he steps out of stone, that we can reproduce
that sentimentality, particularly when we don't--
567
00:42:22,029 --> 00:42:24,238
[ b.h. ] But that's one King. That's one King.
568
00:42:24,238 --> 00:42:25,414
[ MHP ] Yes.
569
00:42:25,414 --> 00:42:29,750
[ b.h. ] I mean, I'm sorry, but most Americans
don't even know The King ever said anything about fascism.
570
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:31,524
They don't know that he ever said anything
571
00:42:31,524 --> 00:42:35,043
about a mounting white supremacy
that would endanger our lives,
572
00:42:35,043 --> 00:42:38,967
so I mean, I'm forgetting his name--I think it's Gary
Young-- [ IN BACKGROUND: "THE GUARDIAN" ]
573
00:42:38,967 --> 00:42:43,800
who has done the "I Dream" speech book,
574
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:49,135
but he talks about how there's this period where
there is the sentimental King who's loved,
575
00:42:49,135 --> 00:42:54,462
but then as King begins to talk about imperialism,
and to talk about other things,
576
00:42:54,462 --> 00:42:57,843
that then he's talked about as a traitor,
he's talked about-
577
00:42:57,843 --> 00:43:05,027
I mean, so I think part of what we're all being called
to is a more complex understanding of King.
578
00:43:05,027 --> 00:43:06,514
Because I totally agree with you.
579
00:43:06,514 --> 00:43:11,104
I mean I was--hate to say it but in my budding
militant feminism, I had no use for King.
580
00:43:11,104 --> 00:43:12,687
[ SOME LAUGHTER ]
581
00:43:12,687 --> 00:43:14,697
And I barely had use for Malcolm X,
582
00:43:14,697 --> 00:43:19,501
because of what I felt to be their refusal to see
583
00:43:19,501 --> 00:43:25,621
the way patriarchy was hurting and wounding
to Black males and females,
584
00:43:25,621 --> 00:43:34,882
and keeping us from the love that we deserve
to be able to give one another. And so, you know--
585
00:43:34,882 --> 00:43:37,931
[ MHP ] But I don't mean to throw King out at all.
In fact, actually, he was-
586
00:43:37,931 --> 00:43:39,602
[ b.h. ] I didn't think you were...
587
00:43:39,602 --> 00:43:45,010
[ MHP ] But I just worry about the ways--so this is
your same concern about sentimentality,
588
00:43:45,010 --> 00:43:46,820
just to echo it back,
589
00:43:46,820 --> 00:43:50,948
that even as we engage the great ideas
and the thinkers
590
00:43:50,948 --> 00:43:54,916
and the nuggets of understanding
of justice and philosophy,
591
00:43:54,916 --> 00:44:06,432
that because we're so absent, Black women are
so absent from the story, we're willing to give a pass.
592
00:44:06,432 --> 00:44:10,510
[ b.h. ] I don't think that anybody would ever say
that about bell hooks.
593
00:44:10,510 --> 00:44:12,478
[ MHP ] No, not you. Not you.
I'm talking about us.
594
00:44:12,478 --> 00:44:14,227
[ b.h. ] Yes.
595
00:44:14,227 --> 00:44:17,963
[ MHP ] I'm talking about an American vision
of who counts as a hero. That's what I mean.
596
00:44:17,963 --> 00:44:19,501
[ b.h. ] That's right.
597
00:44:19,501 --> 00:44:25,775
But I think that, you know, we are still in
the construction of a world
598
00:44:25,775 --> 00:44:30,990
where people don't want to accept
that it is patriarchy that is killing Black men.
599
00:44:30,990 --> 00:44:32,646
[ AUDIBLE AGREEMENT FROM AUDIENCE ]
600
00:44:32,646 --> 00:44:41,117
That it is an imperialistic patriarchy that threatens
the life of Black men of all ages--Black males.
601
00:44:41,117 --> 00:44:46,488
I mean, all this week I've been talking about
my little 7-year-old Black male friend, you know,
602
00:44:46,488 --> 00:44:50,807
who is having tremendous problems
in predominantly white world,
603
00:44:50,807 --> 00:44:56,548
and I try to talk to his biracial mother and say, "You
know, I think his problems have to do with race"
604
00:44:56,548 --> 00:45:01,208
That he looks out in the world and not only does he
see nothing that mirrors him,
605
00:45:01,208 --> 00:45:04,679
these other little white kids are telling him
he's a monster.
606
00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:06,749
You know, he's "ugly",
607
00:45:06,749 --> 00:45:10,666
and so he finally gets--she says, "Oh I think you're
just totally misguided." You know?
608
00:45:10,666 --> 00:45:19,816
And then he finally gets into a fight at school and
he says, "You know, white people are just mean."
609
00:45:19,816 --> 00:45:25,564
And so, there's this articulation of
a racialized narrative, from a 7-year-old
610
00:45:25,564 --> 00:45:30,391
that knows he's already on the "outs",
that there's no "in" for him.
611
00:45:30,391 --> 00:45:33,572
And I wonder about the trajectory of his life,
612
00:45:33,572 --> 00:45:39,720
that he can feel already the depths of that angst
and despair, that there's no "in" for him.
613
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:43,950
And I thought about that when you
were talking about Trayvon Martin,
614
00:45:43,950 --> 00:45:49,074
and talking about birthing a girl, a Black girl,
as opposed to a Black male child.
615
00:45:49,074 --> 00:45:57,742
Because I do think that Melissa and I both represent
that very oppositional reality that I write about.
616
00:45:57,742 --> 00:46:03,661
That we both have, against various odds in our life,
invented ourselves.
617
00:46:03,661 --> 00:46:11,568
And I don't think that that radical self-invention
is as present for Black males in their life.
618
00:46:11,568 --> 00:46:14,700
Because for us, there is no seduction of power.
619
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:20,182
There is no idea of, "oh well, if I just do
the right thing with my dick, [ AUDIENCE LAUGHS ]
620
00:46:20,182 --> 00:46:24,045
I will be able to enter into the power of patriarchy."
621
00:46:24,045 --> 00:46:31,887
And so I think that that--those things are just
so intimate and deep in our lives right now,
622
00:46:31,887 --> 00:46:37,371
this sense of also the distance that's growing
between Black females and Black males,
623
00:46:37,371 --> 00:46:40,241
around, I think, these very issues.
624
00:46:44,233 --> 00:46:46,411
[ MHP ] So, this one's hard.
625
00:46:46,411 --> 00:46:49,693
[ b.h. ] I know, we just need hours together.
626
00:46:49,693 --> 00:46:54,119
[ MHP ] I know. I mean, it's so hard because
I simultaneously--you know,
627
00:46:54,119 --> 00:47:00,463
I felt it so much on the night of the Zimmerman
verdict, and throughout that week,
628
00:47:00,463 --> 00:47:03,787
and throughout the month that have passed.
629
00:47:03,787 --> 00:47:07,765
But when I hear you say the extent to which we've-
630
00:47:07,765 --> 00:47:11,309
that you and I have had a set of challenges over which we've-
631
00:47:11,309 --> 00:47:14,574
but I'm sitting here thinking, okay now if I'm
real honest about that,
632
00:47:14,574 --> 00:47:23,467
some of the most difficult, very personal barriers,
were placed there by Black men.
633
00:47:23,467 --> 00:47:27,869
Purposefully, actively, maliciously,
cruelly, continuously,
634
00:47:27,869 --> 00:47:33,169
whether it was my sexual assault as a teenager
by a Black man, who's an adult,
635
00:47:33,169 --> 00:47:38,499
whether it was my [ DISTRACTION IS INAUDIBLE ]-
we're live streaming--there are--
636
00:47:38,499 --> 00:47:42,137
[ b.h. ] She's gonna have to talk about [INAUDIBLE ]
637
00:47:42,137 --> 00:47:45,470
[ MHP ] Right, no. No, I, psh. Yes.
638
00:47:45,470 --> 00:47:50,800
And that, by the time that one came along,
there had been so many that had-
639
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:56,201
and, so for me--it's interesting for you to say this-
640
00:47:56,201 --> 00:47:59,524
because I'm light-skinned,
641
00:47:59,524 --> 00:48:10,698
and cis, and straight, and have a white parent,
and have access to all kinds of privileges from birth,
642
00:48:10,698 --> 00:48:13,202
my bet is that I have been seduced by power.
643
00:48:13,202 --> 00:48:16,700
Now I don't think that mine comes
at the end of my penis,
644
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:18,852
but my bet is that my proximity to whiteness
645
00:48:18,852 --> 00:48:24,732
has in fact allowed me over and over again
a level of racial naiveté,
646
00:48:24,732 --> 00:48:29,637
and a willingness to believe that if I could just get
the right white folks to give me cover,
647
00:48:29,637 --> 00:48:36,458
that it will be okay. [ AUDIENCE CHEERING ]
648
00:48:36,458 --> 00:48:40,716
And I think that has everything to do
with being embodied in this body, and not in-
649
00:48:40,716 --> 00:48:43,502
so, that even as we talk about
"The Black Woman's Experience",
650
00:48:43,502 --> 00:48:47,352
that like, the different kinds of Black women's
bodies in which we end up--
651
00:48:47,352 --> 00:48:51,422
[ b.h. ] But then let's talk about the point at which
you realized that angle happened.
652
00:48:51,422 --> 00:48:52,953
And then you have--
653
00:48:52,953 --> 00:48:54,912
[ MHP ] Oh, and I don't know that that is true.
654
00:48:54,912 --> 00:48:57,602
I mean, I show up on TV and say words
655
00:48:57,602 --> 00:49:01,012
because at the moment I have the cover
of a powerful white man.
656
00:49:01,012 --> 00:49:04,306
Like at the moment a white man is like,
"okay you can sit on TV and say words"
657
00:49:04,306 --> 00:49:08,651
and the moment that that powerful white man
no longer wants me to sit on TV and say words,
658
00:49:08,651 --> 00:49:11,162
I will not be allowed to sit on TV
and say words anymore.
659
00:49:11,162 --> 00:49:13,897
[ b.h. ] But every time you speak,
you have a choice.
660
00:49:13,897 --> 00:49:19,355
And I think that part of this huge following that's
here tonight for you, and that's out there in the world,
661
00:49:19,355 --> 00:49:23,478
is because you have exercised that choice,
in a way puts you at risk,
662
00:49:23,478 --> 00:49:26,816
in a way that makes it seem that yes,
663
00:49:26,816 --> 00:49:30,685
that power force larger than you
could shut you down at any moment,
664
00:49:30,685 --> 00:49:33,336
but you don't allow that to happen.
665
00:49:33,336 --> 00:49:37,394
And that's the strength that I'm talking about,
that's a different kind of-
666
00:49:37,394 --> 00:49:40,265
it's what it means to be in resistance.
667
00:49:40,265 --> 00:49:43,183
I mean, all week I've been quoting
my beloved Paulo Freire:
668
00:49:43,183 --> 00:49:48,840
"We cannot enter the struggle as objects
in order to later become subjects."
669
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:58,790
So you exercise the power of a redemptive
subjectivity, an oppositional subjectivity right there,
670
00:49:58,790 --> 00:50:05,412
in the belly of the beast, knowing all the time
that you could be stopped at any moment,
671
00:50:05,412 --> 00:50:07,059
but you don't not do it.
672
00:50:07,059 --> 00:50:12,806
You don't express the views of the covering person
that you described.
673
00:50:12,806 --> 00:50:16,764
You're challenging yourself, and we challenge you.
674
00:50:16,764 --> 00:50:24,128
[ MHP ] But I still think of the riskier thing,
of the braver thing, as-
675
00:50:24,128 --> 00:50:29,563
because you write,
because television killed my writing.
676
00:50:29,563 --> 00:50:33,809
I haven't written since the show,
because you write it exists forever.
677
00:50:33,809 --> 00:50:36,937
It's not ephemeral in the same way that broadcast is.
678
00:50:36,937 --> 00:50:41,282
And it feels to me so much more risky to write it,
679
00:50:41,282 --> 00:50:44,515
both because once you've written it,
I can then quote it back to you.
680
00:50:44,515 --> 00:50:47,540
I can challenge you on it.
I can hold you accountable to it.
681
00:50:47,540 --> 00:50:51,700
I can--but also because there will come a point
when you are gone
682
00:50:51,700 --> 00:50:56,983
and the 18-year-old will still pick it up, and
still read it, and still discover Black Feminism,
683
00:50:56,983 --> 00:51:05,369
and then you did something, bell, that is--strikes me
as extremely dangerous to one's ego,
684
00:51:05,369 --> 00:51:12,683
which is you walked away from the brightest glare
of public life.
685
00:51:12,683 --> 00:51:15,488
You returned to community,
686
00:51:15,488 --> 00:51:24,056
and the work that you are doing now feels to me like
it gets rewarded in all of the ways that this system
687
00:51:24,056 --> 00:51:29,931
the capitalist--the system that you named so we can
see the water that we're swimming in-
688
00:51:29,931 --> 00:51:34,197
isn't--like, the rewards won't be those rewards.
689
00:51:34,197 --> 00:51:42,126
[ b.h. ] But it gives me that ground to stand on from
which I can sustain my oppositional self.
690
00:51:42,126 --> 00:51:47,427
I mean, all throughout this week and last night,
we had an amazing Sister Circle of women of color,
691
00:51:47,427 --> 00:51:54,942
but a lot of those women were articulating
how hard it is to remain oneself.
692
00:51:54,942 --> 00:51:59,311
Working in these systems,
working here at the New School.
693
00:51:59,311 --> 00:52:04,263
And so I think partially, I mean, when I left
New York City, I will just never forget that day.
694
00:52:04,263 --> 00:52:07,251
I'd been thinking suicidal thoughts.
695
00:52:07,251 --> 00:52:12,103
I was standing on the corner, with two shoes that
didn't match, and all this other stuff.
696
00:52:12,103 --> 00:52:14,558
I knew that it was time to go.
697
00:52:14,558 --> 00:52:23,764
And to return to some type of foundation that could
allow me to sustain myself.
698
00:52:23,764 --> 00:52:26,780
You know, when you've written a book that sells,
and it's selling really well,
699
00:52:26,780 --> 00:52:30,267
but then suddenly you're told, "well we don't want
to publish you anymore".
700
00:52:30,267 --> 00:52:33,932
But no reasons given, no explanations,
701
00:52:33,932 --> 00:52:40,488
and all of those things that as Black women testified
throughout this week--they make you feel crazy.
702
00:52:40,488 --> 00:52:46,566
They make you feel like "okay I did the things that
I was supposed to do, I arrived at the destination."
703
00:52:46,566 --> 00:52:50,986
And all of the sudden I come to work one day
and I'm locked out.
704
00:52:50,986 --> 00:52:53,158
[audible compassionate reaction from audience]
705
00:52:53,158 --> 00:53:01,171
And so I think that for me, it's this decision to
constantly think about what nurtures that radical self,
706
00:53:01,171 --> 00:53:03,115
what holds me up?
707
00:53:03,115 --> 00:53:06,278
You know, Shirley Chisholm holds me up.
[ A FEW CHEERS ]
708
00:53:06,278 --> 00:53:09,206
I mean, when I-
her "Unbought and Unbossed" taught me,
709
00:53:09,206 --> 00:53:12,662
much as Melissa and other people are saying that
I taught them things-
710
00:53:12,662 --> 00:53:19,982
she taught me that I could be whoever I wanted to be
without having to lie down,
711
00:53:19,982 --> 00:53:25,939
without having to be vulnerable and naked
to the oppressor. [ SOME CLAPS ]
712
00:53:25,939 --> 00:53:31,479
But what I also learned from her was that
the rewards would be lesser,
713
00:53:31,479 --> 00:53:34,078
that one would have to give up something.
714
00:53:34,078 --> 00:53:36,702
You know when I read, a year or so ago,
715
00:53:36,702 --> 00:53:40,782
and bell hooks talks--is talked about in "Ms."
as "missing in action",
716
00:53:40,782 --> 00:53:45,375
and I think, what are they talking about?
I'm sitting here writing. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ]
717
00:53:45,375 --> 00:53:47,746
You know?
718
00:53:47,746 --> 00:53:50,136
And there are things again-
I talked with the students-
719
00:53:50,136 --> 00:53:55,309
and Melissa will respond and will begin to close--
open it up for questions-
720
00:53:55,309 --> 00:54:00,465
that when you are committed,
you often have to do things you don't want to do.
721
00:54:00,465 --> 00:54:06,588
I am not interested in "Lean In," okay? You know?
[ APPLAUSE ]
722
00:54:06,588 --> 00:54:16,159
But I wrote a piece about it because I was very
disturbed by what I felt was its overall impact.
723
00:54:16,159 --> 00:54:21,243
And because I wasn't particularly interested,
writing the piece was torturous.
724
00:54:21,243 --> 00:54:26,200
I was so unhappy. And people kept telling me,
"Well why don't you stop? Why don't you"
725
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:31,228
And all of you who know me know
that I don't use, myself, much of the Internet,
726
00:54:31,228 --> 00:54:36,816
so it's always in collaboration with other feminist
sisters and brothers,
727
00:54:36,816 --> 00:54:40,770
that things bell hooks get on the Internet.
728
00:54:40,770 --> 00:54:42,929
And so I had my colleague,
Stephanie Troutman, saying,
729
00:54:42,929 --> 00:54:49,190
"bell, you agonized over this. You did it.
Let me put it on the Internet for you."
730
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:56,720
But that has been my story in writing from
the beginning, that I have to say some things,
731
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,374
but I am not always somebody
who wants to say them.
732
00:54:59,374 --> 00:55:04,796
I want somebody else to jump up and say them,
and take the heat. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
733
00:55:04,796 --> 00:55:06,950
[ MHP ] Yeah.
734
00:55:08,304 --> 00:55:14,644
[ b.h. ] And so, I mean, she said things.
She takes the heat.
735
00:55:14,644 --> 00:55:18,780
And I just don't want you to downplay that,
despite our privilege.
736
00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:21,572
I mean, I have an enormously privileged life,
and y'all know.
737
00:55:21,572 --> 00:55:26,052
Y'all up in here hear me talk about my cars and
my houses and different things, my cheerio privilege,
738
00:55:26,052 --> 00:55:35,097
leisure, solitude, but that doesn't mean that
it doesn't require courage, sacrifice.
739
00:55:35,097 --> 00:55:42,436
It doesn't mean that there isn't a bell welter of pain,
because there often is.
740
00:55:42,436 --> 00:55:54,829
So that we carry on precisely because of those
people who we stand looking out at them-
741
00:55:54,829 --> 00:56:03,275
Lorraine Hansberry--so many people we could name,
who remind me what I'm here to do.
742
00:56:03,275 --> 00:56:08,891
You know, it was Lorraine Hansberry who first
taught me to start thinking critically about love.
743
00:56:08,891 --> 00:56:18,193
When she asked "Are Black People loving people?"
Or are we so damaged and so traumatized?
744
00:56:18,193 --> 00:56:24,789
So that those issues of who we are and how we
make our voices heard continue because, you know,
745
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:33,454
it's funny how, Melissa, I feel very strongly
because I have lost family to death young recently.
746
00:56:33,454 --> 00:56:35,166
[ VOICE BREAKING ]
747
00:56:35,166 --> 00:56:43,052
I feel very strongly that I can't count on a white racist
world to keep the bell hooks book going.
748
00:56:43,052 --> 00:56:47,358
You know, and I laugh to people when say,
"Oh bell, why don't you digitalize all these books?"
749
00:56:47,358 --> 00:56:53,938
and I say, "Yeah, the moment they're electronic, a
delete button can take them out of the universe,"
750
00:56:53,938 --> 00:56:55,979
[ APPLAUSE ]
751
00:56:55,979 --> 00:57:01,387
and so there is this way in which I'm struggling with
how do we protect our legacies as Black females?
752
00:57:01,387 --> 00:57:05,110
How do we protect our voices? [ APPLAUSE ]
753
00:57:05,110 --> 00:57:09,476
Because y'know there's a hundred, some hundreds
of men, Black and white and whatever,
754
00:57:09,476 --> 00:57:12,035
who we don't know anything about
what they ever did,
755
00:57:12,035 --> 00:57:15,840
but they have their institute,
they have their whatever, [ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER ]
756
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:21,340
and so I am asking myself
at this critical juncture of my life,
757
00:57:21,340 --> 00:57:26,510
what am I doing to care for the legacy of my work?
758
00:57:26,510 --> 00:57:33,874
I am not assuming that that work, despite all of you
wonderful people that are here tonight, will live,
759
00:57:33,874 --> 00:57:38,700
if I don't do the necessary things to continue its life.
760
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:42,806
I'm going to close. Melissa's going to say stuff
and we're going to have a few questions.
761
00:57:44,267 --> 00:57:48,816
[ MHP ] I think we can go to questions. I think...
762
00:57:48,816 --> 00:57:51,853
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER THEN MORE APPLAUSE ]
763
00:57:51,853 --> 00:57:55,531
I think there's a couple of mics in the audience.
764
00:57:55,531 --> 00:57:57,548
[ b.h. ] And you know, ask your question quickly
765
00:57:57,548 --> 00:58:03,256
'cause with Buddhist compassion I will tell you
not to give that speech. Your name? [ LAUGHTER ]
766
00:58:10,591 --> 00:58:13,682
[ KALIMA DE JESUS ] So my name
is Kalima De Jesus,
767
00:58:13,682 --> 00:58:18,013
and I have a question regarding the push-back
around "Twelve Years a Slave".
768
00:58:18,013 --> 00:58:24,992
And I would like to have a conversation about-
bell hooks, you said you talked about feeling like
769
00:58:24,992 --> 00:58:30,369
you've seen enough of the Black woman body
who's been sexually assaulted, and I'm wondering
770
00:58:30,369 --> 00:58:34,095
how do we find a balance about telling that history
771
00:58:34,095 --> 00:58:41,411
of the sexual assault that Black women have endured
years & years up until 2013, at this particular hour,
772
00:58:41,411 --> 00:58:46,908
while white women have stayed complacent?
And imagine it beyond that?
773
00:58:46,908 --> 00:58:51,669
Holding that balance in a time when
we are not being taught that at all.
774
00:58:51,669 --> 00:58:55,882
[ b.h. ] But we are so much more than that,
and that's really more the question.
775
00:58:55,882 --> 00:59:00,001
The question is not how we can't image that
or that it's not imaged.
776
00:59:00,001 --> 00:59:06,413
It's all of us and who we are that's not imaged.
And why are we not?
777
00:59:06,413 --> 00:59:13,210
Why is there no world that wants to see the life
someone like me leads as a Black female?
778
00:59:13,210 --> 00:59:18,755
Economically self-sufficient, solitary,
disciplined, writing?
779
00:59:18,755 --> 00:59:22,471
Why is that not interesting,
780
00:59:22,471 --> 00:59:29,623
not as interesting as images of if I were
being beaten, raped, if the scars were on my body?
781
00:59:29,623 --> 00:59:35,514
That's what concerns me more than even
the sentimental slavery or whatever-
782
00:59:35,514 --> 00:59:40,450
is, why are we not--where's our decolonized image?
783
00:59:40,450 --> 00:59:44,739
[ MHP ] So, you know, it's interesting because
part of what I liked about it
784
00:59:44,739 --> 00:59:48,940
was that we got to see Patsy making the dolls,
and we got to see her even in the context of--
785
00:59:48,940 --> 00:59:51,197
[ b.h. ] I even hated the little dolls.
786
00:59:51,197 --> 00:59:55,647
[ MHP ] Well, [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
so for me what the dolls meant,
787
00:59:55,647 --> 01:00:02,152
and even her ability in the context of the horror
was those late-night performative dances,
788
01:00:02,152 --> 01:00:07,377
that in both of those contexts, she nonetheless finds-
she's still human in them, right?
789
01:00:07,377 --> 01:00:10,847
And that her humanity isn't entirely oppositional.
790
01:00:10,847 --> 01:00:14,594
So we see her humanity
in her oppositional moment about the soap,
791
01:00:14,594 --> 01:00:19,720
but there's also that she can just be playful, or that-
792
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:25,607
that social death is in fact a falsehood
in understanding what slavery was,
793
01:00:25,607 --> 01:00:27,733
that there was still humanity in it.
794
01:00:27,733 --> 01:00:30,138
I mean, so we have a reading of the film differently.
795
01:00:30,138 --> 01:00:36,313
That said, this notion of the
abused Black woman's body as becoming-
796
01:00:36,313 --> 01:00:43,002
so I started fairly early on in the show talking
about being a sexual assault survivor.
797
01:00:43,002 --> 01:00:46,907
And, you know, I've been doing campus work
around sexual assault forever.
798
01:00:46,907 --> 01:00:48,281
I mean, it's not like it's a new thing.
799
01:00:48,281 --> 01:00:51,966
No one in my family, you know,
it wasn't a new discovery.
800
01:00:51,966 --> 01:00:58,483
But I'm not sure that the people at the organization
where I work knew it one way or another,
801
01:00:58,483 --> 01:01:00,704
but they sort of like it.
802
01:01:00,704 --> 01:01:07,325
Not that they like that I was abused, but they like me
when I'm the sentimental person.
803
01:01:07,325 --> 01:01:12,407
So they like when I write the letter to Trayvon
Martin's mother, to Sybrina Fulton,
804
01:01:12,407 --> 01:01:20,657
which is legitimately how I felt, Black mother
to Black mother, but is, as bell was saying earlier,
805
01:01:20,657 --> 01:01:25,408
but what it takes both to write it,
and to deliver it on air,
806
01:01:25,408 --> 01:01:30,186
and then to live with the consequences of having it
delivered on air, is a lot.
807
01:01:30,186 --> 01:01:33,015
It's very costly. It's very expensive.
808
01:01:33,015 --> 01:01:37,659
So, it is both something that is meaningful to do,
and very expensive.
809
01:01:37,659 --> 01:01:41,150
And so because it's very expensive,
I don't want to do it a lot, right?
810
01:01:41,150 --> 01:01:43,155
I want to do it, but I don't want to do it every week.
811
01:01:43,155 --> 01:01:45,349
It's just because shit hurts.
812
01:01:45,349 --> 01:01:48,741
And then like, I remember when I did one of
the letters around sexual assault
813
01:01:48,741 --> 01:01:53,540
and then we had done it at like 10:30,
so I had an hour-and-a-half of show left.
814
01:01:53,540 --> 01:01:55,868
So you know I sat down and I said to myself,
815
01:01:55,868 --> 01:01:58,674
okay sexual assault survivor, now it's time
for dissociation.
816
01:01:58,674 --> 01:02:02,236
Now we're going to practice
our dissociation practice... here we go!
817
01:02:02,354 --> 01:02:06,041
All right, half-and-a-half of now talking about Syria
and something else.
818
01:02:06,041 --> 01:02:08,135
So it's costly, so I don't like to do it a lot.
819
01:02:08,135 --> 01:02:09,952
[ b.h. ] Yes. And you shouldn't do it a lot.
820
01:02:09,952 --> 01:02:15,869
[ MHP ] Right, but that's what--but, back to the
market--that's the market.
821
01:02:15,869 --> 01:02:24,479
People like that Melissa. When Melissa is angry,
yelling at the economist, right?
822
01:02:24,479 --> 01:02:27,356
[ b.h. ] I'll say "clear", and "exact".
823
01:02:27,356 --> 01:02:31,957
[ MHP ] Exacting. When Melissa is goofy,
as I pretty often am,
824
01:02:31,957 --> 01:02:34,637
and sometimes kind of goofy over-the-line,
825
01:02:34,637 --> 01:02:43,829
sometimes goofy over-the-line wearing
feminine products in my ears. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
826
01:02:43,829 --> 01:02:51,499
The desire not to see me--I mean people say to me,
"That's not you. You're not that. Don't do that."
827
01:02:51,499 --> 01:02:55,219
Well of course I'm that. Of course I'm silly
and goofy and crazy and over-the-top,
828
01:02:55,219 --> 01:02:58,871
and sometimes I'm kind of, you know,
sexy and bad and fly and all that.
829
01:02:58,871 --> 01:03:03,711
And sometimes I am mad, and sometimes
I am very sad, and hurt, and in pain.
830
01:03:03,711 --> 01:03:08,722
Like, because, well, shit. I'm human.
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND CLAPPING ]
831
01:03:08,722 --> 01:03:12,640
But I do think--and on this one, bell-
this notion of range-
832
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,007
like not only in our consumption in popular culture,
833
01:03:16,007 --> 01:03:20,335
but our desire to consume
"The Strong Black Woman"
834
01:03:20,335 --> 01:03:23,819
who overcomes the worst circumstances,
835
01:03:23,819 --> 01:03:26,334
is the thing that we like the best.
836
01:03:26,334 --> 01:03:31,970
And I say "we" like both the broad American public,
Black people, "we like strong black women".
837
01:03:31,970 --> 01:03:35,878
But we pitiful Black women, funny Black-
we already know we don't like funny Black Women-
838
01:03:35,878 --> 01:03:40,202
but you can't get a job, right?
[ LAUGHING AND APPLAUSE ]
839
01:03:40,202 --> 01:03:44,009
We are live streaming--I keep forgetting
we are on the air. [ LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE ]
840
01:03:44,009 --> 01:03:48,420
Right? [ OVERLAPPING WORDS, APPLAUSE ]
No job and I get really get bad--
841
01:03:48,420 --> 01:03:52,150
[ b.h. ] So what we're really talking about
is that whole-
842
01:03:52,150 --> 01:03:58,120
the whole question of what does it mean
to have optimal emotional well-being?
843
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:02,781
'Cause when you have optimal emotional well-being,
you can be whole.
844
01:04:02,781 --> 01:04:07,531
You can be the diversities of who yourself is,
and so you're saying...
845
01:04:07,531 --> 01:04:17,173
you know, we have to resist again and again, people
trying to deny us that space of emotional well-being,
846
01:04:17,173 --> 01:04:22,831
by keeping us trapped into the plantation culture
that says "this is who we are".
847
01:04:22,831 --> 01:04:25,717
Your name, your quick question?
848
01:04:25,717 --> 01:04:31,622
Ariel Rojas: Oh! [ LAUGHTER ]
You caught me by surprise.
849
01:04:31,622 --> 01:04:37,053
No, I was thinking about your, the finishing optimal...
850
01:04:37,053 --> 01:04:38,516
[ b.h. ] Well-being.
851
01:04:38,516 --> 01:04:41,892
[ AUDIENCE MEMBER ] Well-being. All right,
so my name is Ariel
852
01:04:41,892 --> 01:04:46,385
and I'm the president and founder of a non-profit
organization called Transdiaspora Network.
853
01:04:46,385 --> 01:04:49,867
And I work with inner-city kids.
854
01:04:49,867 --> 01:04:59,834
I always participate in these forums in a very candid
way because I do believe that dialogue
855
01:04:59,834 --> 01:05:05,706
and communication is a good way to create ourness.
856
01:05:05,706 --> 01:05:09,636
Yeah, yeah I'm getting there. [ LAUGHTER ]
857
01:05:09,636 --> 01:05:14,176
But I'm putting this in context, because for me,
858
01:05:14,176 --> 01:05:17,435
as the leader of a non-profit organization
working with inner-city kids,
859
01:05:17,435 --> 01:05:28,881
it's kind of--to see the disconnection between the
high cultural elite of Black people producing culture,
860
01:05:28,881 --> 01:05:37,143
with what's going on in the inner-city Black
sort-of-plantation neighborhoods.
861
01:05:37,143 --> 01:05:41,305
That sometimes you see girls that
even when they turn 17
862
01:05:41,305 --> 01:05:48,861
they haven't even been on the Brooklyn Promenade
to see that view of Manhattan, that is very popular--
863
01:05:48,861 --> 01:05:50,809
[ MHP ] You gotta ask a question though.
864
01:05:50,809 --> 01:05:52,806
[ ROJAS ] No, no, I'm going to ask a question.
865
01:05:52,806 --> 01:05:54,401
[ MHP ] Okay, okay, yeah.
866
01:05:54,401 --> 01:05:59,535
[ ROJAS ] Okay so how we--how we the Black
Leaders, can create a contrast,
867
01:05:59,535 --> 01:06:05,400
not to white men, but how we can create
a colorful palette,
868
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:11,738
in order to educate the young generations with
these powerful contents that you create,
869
01:06:11,738 --> 01:06:15,262
in order to fight injustice.
870
01:06:15,262 --> 01:06:21,414
[ MHP ] I just--I gotta disagree with you
that culture is made by the Black elite.
871
01:06:21,414 --> 01:06:27,104
You know, I live in New Orleans.
The culture is made actually by the inner-city kids.
872
01:06:27,104 --> 01:06:34,773
The most powerful diasporic cultural tradition
currently operating in the world
873
01:06:34,773 --> 01:06:39,865
was made by Black and Puerto Rican kids
in the inner cities of this city.
874
01:06:39,865 --> 01:06:43,292
Now what I will say is, living in New Orleans,
875
01:06:43,292 --> 01:06:46,844
in a place where poor people are the people
who create the culture that is then--
876
01:06:46,844 --> 01:06:48,443
[ b.h. ] --marketed.
877
01:06:48,443 --> 01:06:50,358
[ MHP ] --that is then sold.
878
01:06:50,358 --> 01:06:56,838
It's like so then now the consensus on both the Right
and the Left is that--what's happening, for example,
879
01:06:56,838 --> 01:07:00,373
the New Orleans school systems is good.
This is improvement in the schools.
880
01:07:00,373 --> 01:07:02,432
And of course one of the most important things
881
01:07:02,432 --> 01:07:05,117
is that we ripped out all music education
from the schools.
882
01:07:05,117 --> 01:07:07,390
So I actually don't think we need to go
teach kids culture.
883
01:07:07,390 --> 01:07:10,549
I think we just need to give young people--
wealthy and poor--
884
01:07:10,549 --> 01:07:12,952
the tools, and they will create the culture.
885
01:07:12,952 --> 01:07:14,940
[ ROJAS ] That's what I'm talking about.
Creating the tools.
886
01:07:14,940 --> 01:07:19,219
[ MHP ] I mean, well yeah. Resources. Resources.
I mean, for me it's resources. Like I don't--
887
01:07:19,219 --> 01:07:20,699
[ b.h. ] I just--
888
01:07:20,699 --> 01:07:22,435
[ MHP ] --I don't think we need to go tell them
what to do--
889
01:07:22,435 --> 01:07:24,200
[ ROJAS ] No, no, I'm talking more about tools
and ways--
890
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,225
[ b.h. ] --I--I want to add--add to this--
891
01:07:26,225 --> 01:07:28,450
[ ROJAS ] to defend themselves because
what happens when they ...
892
01:07:28,450 --> 01:07:29,876
[ OVERLAPPING / INAUDIBLE...
AUDIENCE BECOMES UNSETTLED ]
893
01:07:29,876 --> 01:07:31,641
[ OTHER AUDIENCE MEMBER ] Brother,
we don't talk while she was talking.
894
01:07:31,641 --> 01:07:35,300
We should answer up someone else's questions.
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHTER AND ANNOYANCE ]
895
01:07:35,300 --> 01:07:41,363
[ b.h. ] I want to say that plantation culture
is not just the culture that the poor lived within.
896
01:07:41,363 --> 01:07:45,244
We are all living within plantation culture.
897
01:07:45,244 --> 01:07:49,861
Our roles, our resources,
are maybe radically different,
898
01:07:49,861 --> 01:07:56,617
but it's part of some false notion of privilege
to believe that we are somehow not touched
899
01:07:56,617 --> 01:08:03,294
by the plantation culture that the very very people
on the bottom are living.
900
01:08:03,294 --> 01:08:12,943
Harsher lives, riskier lives, but the plantation culture
is what the U.S. is making in the world,
901
01:08:12,943 --> 01:08:17,876
and it is what is sustaining here.
Your question, my sweet, your name?
902
01:08:17,876 --> 01:08:22,810
[ TANYA FIELDS ] My name's Tanya Fields.
I was actually on Melissa's show last month.
903
01:08:22,810 --> 01:08:24,612
[ b.h. ] Yes, I saw you.
904
01:08:24,612 --> 01:08:26,856
[ FIELDS ] I'm a low-income mom living in New York,
905
01:08:26,856 --> 01:08:29,235
and my daughter's first board book was
"Happy to be Nappy".
906
01:08:29,235 --> 01:08:30,818
[ b.h. ] All right. [laughing]
907
01:08:30,818 --> 01:08:33,589
[ FIELDS ] And the words that you guys are
saying right now are so sustaining.
908
01:08:33,589 --> 01:08:37,726
As a low-income Black mother,
I have been struggling to find my voice,
909
01:08:37,726 --> 01:08:40,235
and so I've been using my platforms:
Twitter, Facebook,
910
01:08:40,235 --> 01:08:43,159
and talking about this being a whole person,
911
01:08:43,159 --> 01:08:47,061
what it means to be unmarried with three baby
daddies and four kids. [ AUDIENCE AGREEMENT ]
912
01:08:47,061 --> 01:08:52,720
The pushback that I am often feeling
is not from the white folks in the community,
913
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,653
it is from the other sisters who tear me down,
[ AUDIENCE: "MMHM", APPLAUSE ]
914
01:08:56,653 --> 01:09:00,862
tell me that the reason I am low-income is because
I didn't have the insight to choose good men,
915
01:09:00,862 --> 01:09:06,443
that I should have kept my hand out and my mouth
closed, and my legs closed, and kept my hand out.
916
01:09:06,443 --> 01:09:09,677
And so I'm trying to figure out as we talk about
this plantation culture,
917
01:09:09,677 --> 01:09:11,781
as I try to rise above my circumstances
918
01:09:11,781 --> 01:09:15,810
and literally create meals that the babies
in my community can eat,
919
01:09:15,810 --> 01:09:19,666
how do we--it stops you from wanting
to have that voice.
920
01:09:19,666 --> 01:09:21,500
I have people who tell me,
921
01:09:21,500 --> 01:09:24,546
"When you talk about being low-income, don't talk
about feeding your kids on food stamps.
922
01:09:24,546 --> 01:09:28,889
You don't need an audience for that.
Suffer in shame and in silence.
923
01:09:28,889 --> 01:09:35,300
The situation that you are feeling is your own,
and is a product of your own bad choice."
924
01:09:35,300 --> 01:09:38,887
I am pregnant with my fifth child
and just had this man walk out on me.
925
01:09:38,887 --> 01:09:41,440
How do you wake up every morning and-
926
01:09:41,440 --> 01:09:45,526
I consider myself a Black Feminist but some days
it's just so hard to get out of the bed
927
01:09:45,526 --> 01:09:49,055
and face other Black people. [ APPLAUSE ]
928
01:09:57,352 --> 01:10:01,429
[ b.h. ] Take it, mom. I said "take it."
I actually said, "take it, mom."
929
01:10:01,429 --> 01:10:13,150
[ MHP ] So that is, that is exactly what the whole
thing is designed to do.
930
01:10:13,150 --> 01:10:19,010
The language you used--
"sit alone in your shame and suffer alone".
931
01:10:22,344 --> 01:10:24,830
So, um--[ VOICE BREAKING ]
932
01:10:29,825 --> 01:10:34,132
[ APPLAUSE ]
933
01:10:34,132 --> 01:10:46,545
[ SPEAKING INAUDIBLY AWAY FROM MIC, COMFORTING TONE]
[ SNIFFLING, MORE APPLAUSE* ]
934
01:11:10,955 --> 01:11:13,950
[ SPEAKING INTO MIC AGAIN ]
Um--so it's just to say that-
935
01:11:13,950 --> 01:11:16,213
-so, you know, I could turn into my academic self
936
01:11:16,213 --> 01:11:20,180
which says that the reason that people who are most
vulnerable to being in your exact same circumstance
937
01:11:20,180 --> 01:11:24,370
are the ones who most want to shame you,
is because--it's the same reason that-
938
01:11:24,370 --> 01:11:26,367
it's the sorority girls on campus who say
939
01:11:26,367 --> 01:11:30,835
that you gotta keep yourself from getting raped
by not drinking.
940
01:11:30,835 --> 01:11:37,400
It's because--it's the same reason that the churches
that are growing among Black folks
941
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:43,357
are the prosperity health-and-wealth ones, instead of
liberation and theology churches, right?
942
01:11:43,357 --> 01:11:47,868
And it is because it is much easier to believe
that we can solve inequality
943
01:11:47,868 --> 01:11:50,999
by pulling up our pants, or keeping our legs closed.
944
01:11:50,999 --> 01:11:58,606
Right, so it allows you to wipe away all of the
structural realities that require collective action,
945
01:11:58,606 --> 01:12:03,495
and that require work that goes over
and past your own life.
946
01:12:03,495 --> 01:12:07,048
So if it's just your individual decision-making-
that I'm safe from it.
947
01:12:07,048 --> 01:12:08,930
So as long as I make a different decision,
948
01:12:08,930 --> 01:12:13,513
I will never be vulnerable to poverty,
or to heart-ache, or to pain. [ APPLAUSE ]
949
01:12:13,513 --> 01:12:17,174
And I will just say, you know, that your point about
making all the right choices--right?
950
01:12:17,174 --> 01:12:20,482
So I can remember the point at which
I became a single parent,
951
01:12:20,482 --> 01:12:22,946
and I was like, okay but whoa wait a minute.
952
01:12:22,946 --> 01:12:28,785
I did everything right, and I got my degree first,
and then I got married, and-
953
01:12:28,785 --> 01:12:33,892
no, actually, I got my degree first, then I got married,
then I bought a house, then I got pregnant.
954
01:12:33,892 --> 01:12:38,543
I'm supposed to be all good, and that motherfucker
be like "Peace out".
955
01:12:38,543 --> 01:12:41,459
And went, and just was-
and there I stood, with a baby.
956
01:12:41,459 --> 01:12:43,910
Now I stood there with a baby and a degree
and as a home-owner.
957
01:12:43,910 --> 01:12:49,931
So the shame? I didn't have to--so because it's not
really about being a single-parent.
958
01:12:49,931 --> 01:12:54,768
It's about being poor. The thing you're supposed
to be ashamed of is being poor.
959
01:12:54,768 --> 01:13:01,363
And so it's as though--I will just say that that
shaming--it is a defense mechanism
960
01:13:01,363 --> 01:13:04,506
to keep people from having to do
the hard work of organizing,
961
01:13:04,506 --> 01:13:08,497
and it is the most dangerous thing
in marginalized communities.
962
01:13:08,497 --> 01:13:12,384
It is the most dangerous thing,
because then we do not organize,
963
01:13:12,384 --> 01:13:15,224
because we can just say that
"if only you had made different choices",
964
01:13:15,224 --> 01:13:18,325
then everything would be fine". [ APPLAUSE ]
965
01:13:26,943 --> 01:13:29,320
[ b.h. ] I think we have to remember constantly
966
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:36,897
that shaming is one of the deepest tools of
imperialist white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy,
967
01:13:36,897 --> 01:13:39,799
because shame produces trauma.
968
01:13:39,799 --> 01:13:43,144
And trauma often produces paralysis.
[ AUDIENCE: "YEAH"s ]
969
01:13:43,144 --> 01:13:46,809
So when that sister said that there are days
when she can't get out of bed,
970
01:13:46,809 --> 01:13:51,810
lots of us experience that sense of paralysis.
971
01:13:51,810 --> 01:13:59,753
So that that healing--I have to go back to--I'm not
going to belabor it--but to emotional well-being,
972
01:13:59,753 --> 01:14:05,695
because we've got to have some mechanisms
to resist what is out there,
973
01:14:05,695 --> 01:14:07,983
to resist the constant shaming.
974
01:14:07,983 --> 01:14:09,414
Your name?
975
01:14:09,414 --> 01:14:11,993
[ CHARMIN ] Hi I'm Charmin. I go to CUNY
976
01:14:11,993 --> 01:14:15,164
and I just want to say that this was one of the most
beautiful audiences I've ever seen.
977
01:14:15,164 --> 01:14:16,753
[ b.h. ] Hello, yay!
978
01:14:16,753 --> 01:14:20,330
[ CHARMIN ] And I'd like to extend my invitation
to more public universities and institutions,
979
01:14:20,330 --> 01:14:23,802
where people that look like us
are wanting your presence,
980
01:14:23,802 --> 01:14:28,096
especially because you guys don't come here too
often, so just want to put that out there.
981
01:14:28,096 --> 01:14:32,832
And I also wanted to say that as a political organizer
that is looking to demilitarize CUNY,
982
01:14:32,832 --> 01:14:36,622
kicking Petraeus out of CUNY, [ CROWD CHEERS ]
kicking militarism out of CUNY,
983
01:14:36,622 --> 01:14:42,441
how do we deal with those hyper-masculine
personalities that have values of anti-imperialism
984
01:14:42,441 --> 01:14:48,499
and anti-racism but end up making me feel
uncomfortable in spaces of radical organizing,
985
01:14:48,499 --> 01:14:52,102
where we're talking about
these really, really important issues
986
01:14:52,102 --> 01:14:56,186
but understanding that imperialism is in your blood,
brotha, and that's exactly what you're showing me
987
01:14:56,186 --> 01:14:58,413
when you're shutting me up to cut the mic, right?
988
01:14:58,413 --> 01:15:04,021
So I just want a healthy way to deal with that sis,
'cos I cant do anti-military organizing right now,
989
01:15:04,021 --> 01:15:08,938
just 'cos of the hyper-masculinity and the way that
it's going but I am invested, you know.
990
01:15:08,938 --> 01:15:10,539
[ b.h. ] Okay--okay. [ LAUGHTER ]
991
01:15:10,539 --> 01:15:12,602
[ CHARMIN ] I'm sorry. I just got interrupted,
that's all.
992
01:15:12,602 --> 01:15:16,352
[ b.h. ] Well, I don't--I'm not going to have a long
answer to that, but I also want to encourage us,
993
01:15:16,352 --> 01:15:19,509
as we talked about in my undergraduate class today,
994
01:15:19,509 --> 01:15:25,124
when we talk about hyper-masculinity, if what
we mean is patriarchy, that is what we need to say.
995
01:15:25,124 --> 01:15:26,661
[ CHARMIN ] Okay.
996
01:15:26,661 --> 01:15:31,900
[ b.h. ] Because we have to have a space to love,
to revere, and to honor that which is masculine,
997
01:15:31,900 --> 01:15:34,924
but is not patriarchal.
998
01:15:34,924 --> 01:15:37,973
And if we are constantly equating the two,
999
01:15:37,973 --> 01:15:43,808
then we are part of the assault
on masculinity on Black males.
1000
01:15:43,808 --> 01:15:48,018
[ APPLAUSE ] Are you--do you want to speak to that?
1001
01:15:48,018 --> 01:15:51,821
[ MHP ] So I appreciate you dividing up
the masculinity and the patriarchy.
1002
01:15:51,821 --> 01:15:56,120
I think that's a critical one that we don't do
and part of what I would say is, mhmm.
1003
01:15:56,120 --> 01:16:04,830
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ] Yep. And... true.
1004
01:16:04,830 --> 01:16:16,940
[ MORE LAUGHTER ] And y'know, in very public ways,
bell hooks and I have both encountered that-
1005
01:16:16,940 --> 01:16:20,902
the entire history of Black women's organizing.
1006
01:16:20,902 --> 01:16:26,345
But then I'll always say that Black women have
performed that, particularly straight Black women
1007
01:16:26,345 --> 01:16:31,075
have performed that around queer women of color.
1008
01:16:31,075 --> 01:16:37,812
Privileged women of color have performed that
around undocumented and poor women.
1009
01:16:37,812 --> 01:16:43,901
And even within LGBT movements, cis women,
even cis gay women,
1010
01:16:43,901 --> 01:16:45,856
perform that around trans women.
1011
01:16:45,856 --> 01:16:47,603
[ A FEW CLAPS ]
1012
01:16:47,603 --> 01:16:52,505
And so that, I think it's part of the importance
of pulling out hyper-masculinity,
1013
01:16:52,505 --> 01:16:57,628
because you can be quite femme
and be performing the same--
1014
01:16:57,628 --> 01:16:59,214
[ b.h. ] Patriarchal bull.
1015
01:16:59,214 --> 01:17:01,755
[ MHP ] --patriarchal bull, taking the mic, right?
1016
01:17:01,755 --> 01:17:04,405
So it's just to say that that "uh-huh"?
1017
01:17:04,405 --> 01:17:09,646
That's why it's easier to say "pull up your pants
and close up your legs", because organizing is hard.
1018
01:17:09,646 --> 01:17:15,106
Because people--I mean, who doesn't love people
like in theory? But the actual people?
1019
01:17:15,106 --> 01:17:19,417
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND CLAPPING ]
1020
01:17:19,417 --> 01:17:24,260
I mean, the actual people are very annoying,
and hard, and difficult,
1021
01:17:24,260 --> 01:17:31,641
and you have to give a little and get a little
and it's aaahhh. [ LAUGHTER ] So, welcome.
1022
01:17:31,641 --> 01:17:35,093
[ EBONY MURPHY-ROOT ] Hello, my name is Ebony
Murphy-Root,
1023
01:17:35,093 --> 01:17:39,752
I'm a middle-school English teacher from Hartford,
Connecticut, currently working here.
1024
01:17:39,752 --> 01:17:41,849
[ SOME CLAPPING ]
1025
01:17:41,849 --> 01:17:45,644
And Dr. hooks, you've talked a lot about Black
and white female schoolteachers.
1026
01:17:45,644 --> 01:17:48,910
[ AWAY FROM MIC ] You obviously cover
a lot of ed reform in your show, Dr. Harris-Perry.
1027
01:17:48,910 --> 01:17:54,535
Where are the Black female voices? The Black
female working, schoolteacher voices in ed reform?
1028
01:17:54,535 --> 01:17:58,218
Because I feel like oftentimes, working as a public-
school teacher in Hartford Connecticut,
1029
01:17:58,218 --> 01:18:02,501
working now, that we are being blamed for a culture
that we did not create,
1030
01:18:02,501 --> 01:18:06,791
for problems that come in every day at schools
that we didn't--we didn't create.
1031
01:18:06,791 --> 01:18:13,171
And yet we are being dehumanized and excluded
from this conversation. [ APPLAUSE ]
1032
01:18:13,171 --> 01:18:16,704
[ MHP ] Well, I mean, you asked where you are.
You are the targets, dear.
1033
01:18:16,704 --> 01:18:24,334
You are the reason that there is a powerful
anti-union, anti-teacher
1034
01:18:24,334 --> 01:18:29,490
"go get the TFA Ivy Leaguers
to teach the babies instead".
1035
01:18:29,490 --> 01:18:38,225
I mean, it is not a mistake that the sector that
is dominated by educated women of color
1036
01:18:38,225 --> 01:18:42,865
performing a task of reproduction
1037
01:18:42,865 --> 01:18:49,951
is the one where there is bipartisan consensus
to destroy it. [ AUDIENCE AGREEMENT ]
1038
01:18:49,951 --> 01:18:54,865
So that's where you are. You've got the target on
your back, and it is the very reality
1039
01:18:54,865 --> 01:18:59,196
that those are the bodies most impacted by
the dehumanization movement,
1040
01:18:59,196 --> 01:19:05,202
by the chartering movement, and by the movement
to bring TFAs into and actually staff-hold.
1041
01:19:05,202 --> 01:19:08,973
So, TFA is a lovely program at its initiation,
1042
01:19:08,973 --> 01:19:13,384
which is the idea that wealthy, Ivy-League,
privileged children,
1043
01:19:13,384 --> 01:19:18,312
should go and spend a little time in the world
before they run off to run the world, right?
1044
01:19:18,312 --> 01:19:20,489
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
1045
01:19:20,489 --> 01:19:24,766
It's actually a really--and I mean I know I'm saying
that sort of sarcastically--but it's a smart idea, right?
1046
01:19:24,766 --> 01:19:29,048
Before you go off and make policy, before you go
to Wall Street, before you go and run for office,
1047
01:19:29,048 --> 01:19:30,949
spend two years in the classroom.
1048
01:19:30,949 --> 01:19:35,500
Because what that does is it was a program
whose focus was on the young person, right?
1049
01:19:35,500 --> 01:19:38,219
Not the student,
you aren't going in to save the student.
1050
01:19:38,219 --> 01:19:44,966
You're going in to save yourself, right? And that's
good. Like, yes! Great idea. We should do that.
1051
01:19:44,966 --> 01:19:47,407
Because then you would go get a little humility,
1052
01:19:47,407 --> 01:19:50,624
and you would sit quietly and listen to a teacher
who would tell you things, and you would learn,
1053
01:19:50,624 --> 01:19:52,474
and you would observe, and you would walk away.
1054
01:19:52,474 --> 01:19:56,979
The problem with TFA came when it stopped being
about the salvation of the privileged,
1055
01:19:56,979 --> 01:20:01,286
who needed a little saving of their full humanity
in order to be better policy-makers,
1056
01:20:01,286 --> 01:20:08,138
and instead, became that somehow they would
save the children and the classrooms
1057
01:20:08,138 --> 01:20:13,171
from professional teachers who'd committed their
lives to working for very little pay,
1058
01:20:13,171 --> 01:20:18,880
very few resources, in schools. [ APPLAUSE ]
1059
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:23,264
So, yeah, that's why you're not at the table.
1060
01:20:23,264 --> 01:20:29,250
Because you're the thing that we are seeking
to destroy in education reform.
1061
01:20:30,625 --> 01:20:37,688
[ b.h. ] Okay we are going to hear these questions
and try to answer.
1062
01:20:37,688 --> 01:20:41,413
We'll hear the three of them because
our time is coming to a close.
1063
01:20:41,413 --> 01:20:43,559
Your question, sweetheart, your name?
1064
01:20:43,559 --> 01:20:46,729
[ ZEYNAB ] My name is Zeynab, and
my question is, was there a moment for both of you?
1065
01:20:46,729 --> 01:20:48,936
Was there a moment when you realized that this is it-
1066
01:20:48,936 --> 01:20:51,638
I need to write, I need to say something-
I need to talk?
1067
01:20:51,638 --> 01:20:59,428
And how did you push back against the urge?
I mean, like, if you had the urge to silence yourself?
1068
01:20:59,428 --> 01:21:03,420
[ b.h. ] Okay, so we'll hold that. Your question?
1069
01:21:03,420 --> 01:21:08,039
We're going to hear all these four questions
and--yes, darling?
1070
01:21:08,039 --> 01:21:10,181
[ NIKISHA LEWIS ] Hi, my name is Nikisha
Lewis, and you talked about the gap
1071
01:21:10,181 --> 01:21:13,552
that currently exists between men and women
in the Black community.
1072
01:21:13,552 --> 01:21:18,227
And so, as I'm thinking about Renisha McBride today,
and the outrage that doesn't
1073
01:21:18,227 --> 01:21:20,684
I feel, doesn't yet exist over her life
1074
01:21:20,684 --> 01:21:24,506
the loss of her life,
as it existed over the loss of Trayvon Martin's life.
1075
01:21:24,506 --> 01:21:27,895
I'm really angry and fighting back tears
in my work every day.
1076
01:21:27,895 --> 01:21:33,378
So how do we bridge this gap, this divide, in our
community, so that we can value all of our lives,
1077
01:21:33,378 --> 01:21:38,086
Black women's and girls' lives, as much as we value
the men and boys that we love dearly?
1078
01:21:38,086 --> 01:21:39,965
[ b.h. ] Okay, and--?
1079
01:21:39,965 --> 01:21:42,757
[ VIRGINIA ] Hi My name is Virginia, I'm here
with Public Allies, and my question is,
1080
01:21:42,757 --> 01:21:47,160
how instrumental is the male and/or white ally
in the movement against patriarchy?
1081
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:57,562
[ MIXED AUDIENCE REACTION
OF TALKING AND LAUGHING ]
1082
01:21:57,562 --> 01:22:01,982
[ AUDIENCE MEMBER ] Hi, I have a question
about African-American imperialism,
1083
01:22:01,982 --> 01:22:07,512
and the mode at which we are privileged
in our idea of Blackness,
1084
01:22:07,512 --> 01:22:13,174
and we throw Blackness around
as if we all understand what that is,
1085
01:22:13,174 --> 01:22:17,598
and we travel the world--there is a world out there,
a global world out there that we exist in,
1086
01:22:17,598 --> 01:22:20,892
that identifies with Blackness as an othering.
1087
01:22:20,892 --> 01:22:23,892
so how do we leave room for that conversation
1088
01:22:23,892 --> 01:22:28,493
when we start to inflict capitalist ways of thinking
on other people? [ APPLAUSE ]
1089
01:22:29,949 --> 01:22:36,401
[ b.h. ] Well, I'm going to start with that question
of "Why can't we value Black female lives?"
1090
01:22:36,401 --> 01:22:43,555
Until we challenge patriarchy, there is going to be
no valuing of Black women's lives
1091
01:22:43,555 --> 01:22:52,311
over the small valuing of Black male lives that takes
place, because the very structure militates against it.
1092
01:22:52,311 --> 01:22:58,583
So, I mean, one of the things I've always felt so
strongly, and really express in "We Real Cool",
1093
01:22:58,583 --> 01:23:04,177
is the depths of Black male woundedness
by patriarchal terrorism.
1094
01:23:04,177 --> 01:23:08,330
And until that--those wounds get addressed
in some way,
1095
01:23:08,330 --> 01:23:14,030
I don't think we're going to get the respect,
the recognition, the care,
1096
01:23:14,030 --> 01:23:19,713
because I was thinking about how even Oscar
Grant's mother is portrayed at the end of the film,
1097
01:23:19,713 --> 01:23:21,941
as blaming herself.
1098
01:23:21,941 --> 01:23:30,616
She should not have, you know, not that we get a
full-on calling-out of the system that destroys him.
1099
01:23:32,754 --> 01:23:39,055
[ MHP ] So, yes, and, I think part of what happens is
1100
01:23:39,055 --> 01:23:44,290
so I assume when you say "we value",
I assume you mean "Black communities"
1101
01:23:44,290 --> 01:23:49,194
part of what I would suggest is that what works for us
1102
01:23:49,194 --> 01:23:52,457
is tropes that are connected to
something that we understand.
1103
01:23:52,457 --> 01:23:56,547
And this is something--I'm still thinking about
your critique of "Twelve Years a Slave".
1104
01:23:56,547 --> 01:24:02,694
And so, one of the tropes that we understand
about Black women's suffering
1105
01:24:02,694 --> 01:24:06,698
is the idea of a Black woman raped by the white
male slaveowner, right? That one we get.
1106
01:24:06,698 --> 01:24:10,949
So, if you go back to the case,
the Duke lacrosse case, right?
1107
01:24:10,949 --> 01:24:14,362
You had immediate community mobilization.
1108
01:24:14,362 --> 01:24:18,037
I mean, that day,
that night called for action [ SWOOSH! ]
1109
01:24:18,037 --> 01:24:25,007
because that trope--"Black woman sexually assaulted
by white man, in South, on old plantation"-
1110
01:24:25,007 --> 01:24:28,177
like, we--that one we understood.
We had a thing to hang it on.
1111
01:24:28,177 --> 01:24:31,375
We know the story that it is, and we can tell it.
1112
01:24:31,375 --> 01:24:33,918
Now, so pause for me on that a moment on that,
and let's go to all...
1113
01:24:33,918 --> 01:24:38,471
various stories about Black men's victimization,
1114
01:24:38,471 --> 01:24:44,801
and the ways in which those stories often hang on
the trope that we know that is the lynching trope.
1115
01:24:44,801 --> 01:24:48,749
So we like to forget, because it's
painful to remember,
1116
01:24:48,749 --> 01:24:52,982
that in the week after Supreme Court Justice
Clarence Thomas,
1117
01:24:52,982 --> 01:24:58,402
during his hearing about Anita Hill said,
"This is a high-tech lynching",
1118
01:24:58,402 --> 01:25:02,384
that the public opinion polls showed that greater than
50% of African-Americans
1119
01:25:02,384 --> 01:25:06,480
supported Clarence Thomas' confirmation
to the bench.
1120
01:25:06,480 --> 01:25:11,372
Now I think that's because he used the trope of
lynching, and that we're like "oh yeah, right!
1121
01:25:11,372 --> 01:25:15,163
"Black man, white"--you know--"Joe Biden and the
other white guy saying mean things"
1122
01:25:15,163 --> 01:25:18,114
"that looks like lynching--I know that trope."
1123
01:25:18,114 --> 01:25:21,312
And of course, no one's ever been lynched
for what they've done to a Black woman.
1124
01:25:21,312 --> 01:25:24,890
White men don't posse up to go get a Black man
for what he did to a Black woman.
1125
01:25:24,890 --> 01:25:33,343
But that story is why there was increased radio play
of R. Kelly after he raped a child in our community.
1126
01:25:33,343 --> 01:25:37,694
It's why people don't want to believe
Mike Tyson did it, right?
1127
01:25:37,694 --> 01:25:44,247
Because we get the "vulnerable Black man
facing white lynch mob"
1128
01:25:44,247 --> 01:25:48,031
that's the story that the Trayvon Martin story
fits into for us.
1129
01:25:48,031 --> 01:25:52,084
Marissa Alexander doesn't fit our story
1130
01:25:52,084 --> 01:25:56,826
because she is shooting a gun at
an abusive Black husband coming at her.
1131
01:25:56,826 --> 01:26:01,453
We don't have--we may know that...
we may intimately know that story,
1132
01:26:01,453 --> 01:26:08,107
but we don't have a "story"--a trope, a thing--that is
the abuse of Black women's bodies by Black men.
1133
01:26:08,107 --> 01:26:12,318
And in the case of Renisha,
I don't think we yet have coped with.
1134
01:26:12,318 --> 01:26:16,261
Because when the Trayvon Martin moment
happened, and the Zimmerman verdict happened,
1135
01:26:16,261 --> 01:26:20,506
all of us were saying, "these are the conversations
that we have with our sons,
1136
01:26:20,506 --> 01:26:22,337
about our sons' public safety".
1137
01:26:22,337 --> 01:26:27,504
And I think we have missed how much our girls
are equally vulnerable in that space. [ APPLAUSE ]
1138
01:26:27,504 --> 01:26:30,829
So we don't have a good...
we don't have a good trope.
1139
01:26:30,829 --> 01:26:36,123
We don't have a thing to call why a white man
opening the door--right,
1140
01:26:36,123 --> 01:26:38,339
so allegedly what we think we know at this point,
1141
01:26:38,339 --> 01:26:42,507
is that he opens the door
and sees her as a physical threat to him.
1142
01:26:42,507 --> 01:26:48,258
We don't--like, what is the story? So we know "white
man creeping down and raping the Black woman",
1143
01:26:48,258 --> 01:26:51,413
but we don't know "white man
afraid of Black woman knocking at his door".
1144
01:26:51,413 --> 01:26:56,798
Like, what is that story, right? So part of it is, I think
just a general devaluation, but the other part of it is,
1145
01:26:56,798 --> 01:27:00,678
I think if it doesn't fit a story
that we have easily available to us?
1146
01:27:00,678 --> 01:27:05,075
And there aren't very many stories about
our victimization that are easily available,
1147
01:27:05,075 --> 01:27:09,343
that we can employ and use, and so we're going to
have to generate those.
1148
01:27:09,343 --> 01:27:13,493
I do think that's part of it, at least.
1149
01:27:13,493 --> 01:27:18,322
[ b.h. ] So there was the question about writing.
Was there a moment?
1150
01:27:18,322 --> 01:27:22,064
And for me those moments are just
ongoing and endless,
1151
01:27:22,064 --> 01:27:26,627
but they began for me as a girl in
Virginia Street Baptist Church,
1152
01:27:26,627 --> 01:27:32,011
when I was encouraged to write for our
church magazine and stuff like that.
1153
01:27:32,011 --> 01:27:34,310
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
1154
01:27:40,048 --> 01:27:42,367
[ MHP ] Are you--dear, are you a writer?
1155
01:27:42,367 --> 01:27:45,011
[ ZEYNAB, BARELY AUDIBLE, NO MIC ]
Yeah. [ LAUGHTER ]
1156
01:27:46,660 --> 01:27:49,040
[ MHP ] Do you feel that impulse to write?
1157
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:51,156
[ ZEYNAB ] Yeah.
1158
01:27:51,156 --> 01:27:53,906
[ MHP ] And you feel it even when
there's other stuff to be done?
1159
01:27:53,906 --> 01:27:56,276
[ ZEYNAB ] Nah, I don't think so.
[ LAUGHTER ]
1160
01:27:58,572 --> 01:28:00,921
[ MHP ] So I wonder, 'cause you asked
about the silencing.
1161
01:28:00,921 --> 01:28:03,585
Do you self-edit when you're writing,
like you're pulling back?
1162
01:28:03,585 --> 01:28:05,779
[ ZEYNAB ] Yeah.
1163
01:28:06,673 --> 01:28:08,752
[ MHP ] Only when you're writing for yourself,
1164
01:28:08,752 --> 01:28:12,054
or when you're also writing...
so if you're writing for yourself, it's all there.
1165
01:28:12,054 --> 01:28:17,526
But if you're writing for an audience, you're pulling
it back? Who's the audience typically, teachers?
1166
01:28:17,526 --> 01:28:20,051
[ ZEYNAB ] Yeah. Or like--
1167
01:28:21,579 --> 01:28:23,448
[ b.h. ] I'm going to have to speed you on.
1168
01:28:23,448 --> 01:28:27,107
[ MHP ] Yes, okay I'm sorry. I just--my bet is
that question wasn't about us, right?
1169
01:28:27,107 --> 01:28:32,476
Who cares what I think about writing? My bet is that
question is about you and that you're working on it.
1170
01:28:32,476 --> 01:28:38,225
But if you ask that question, and the real question is
"Am I a writer?", the answer is "Yes, of course you are."
1171
01:28:38,225 --> 01:28:40,194
If you ask that question, of course you're a writer.
1172
01:28:40,194 --> 01:28:44,386
And if you are, if you're self-editing,
at least find some friendly audiences,
1173
01:28:44,386 --> 01:28:49,137
some safe audiences where you can write without...
it's okay to self-edit to feel fearful of your audience...
1174
01:28:49,137 --> 01:28:51,717
I think that's okay.
Particularly when you're a young writer,
1175
01:28:51,717 --> 01:28:55,168
but also just make sure you have some audiences,
someone who's reading for you,
1176
01:28:55,168 --> 01:28:57,893
who is a safe place for you to write.
1177
01:28:57,893 --> 01:29:02,550
[ b.h. ] Okay, are you answering the
imperialism question? [ A FEW LAUGHS ]
1178
01:29:04,493 --> 01:29:08,212
[ MHP ] No, you want to answer that one?
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
1179
01:29:08,212 --> 01:29:11,506
I get in too much trouble behind this, yeah.
[ LAUGHING AND CLAPPING ]
1180
01:29:17,697 --> 01:29:21,691
[ b.h. ] I'm going to be honest. Part of my silence
is I've forgotten parts of the question.
1181
01:29:21,691 --> 01:29:24,002
I didn't--I didn't forget the imperialist--
1182
01:29:24,002 --> 01:29:26,292
[ MHP ] No-no, it's the [ INAUDIBLE ]
of Black versions-
1183
01:29:26,292 --> 01:29:29,262
American versions of Blackness, right?
And capitalism, right?
1184
01:29:29,262 --> 01:29:32,431
[ b.h. ] There was the patriarchal allies,
which was the woman behind you.
1185
01:29:32,431 --> 01:29:34,289
[ MHP ] Yeah, yeah, we're coming to that one.
1186
01:29:34,289 --> 01:29:35,873
[ b.h. ] Yeah.
1187
01:29:35,873 --> 01:29:38,305
[ AUDIENCE MEMBER ] I think that it happens
within both men and women,
1188
01:29:38,305 --> 01:29:40,617
and it does happen to men and women.
1189
01:29:40,617 --> 01:29:44,076
But but the implications of privilege
with our ideas of Blackness,
1190
01:29:44,076 --> 01:29:49,159
being that Blackness has changed over time, like
you're talking about the President in office right now,
1191
01:29:49,159 --> 01:29:52,531
and him being an African-American
imperialist essentially,
1192
01:29:52,531 --> 01:29:57,414
and subconsciously that affecting all of us
who do that as well, when we travel.
1193
01:29:57,414 --> 01:30:01,119
So there's a world out there that
we don't identify with all the time.
1194
01:30:01,119 --> 01:30:05,040
[ b.h. ] Well I think you've stated it.
I mean that's what's real.
1195
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:10,338
I mean what's scary is why people
don't want to face that reality
1196
01:30:10,338 --> 01:30:16,111
why they want to still pretend that there's
some solidified Blackness, and not--I mean,
1197
01:30:16,111 --> 01:30:19,305
that there's tremendous crisis in Blackness
1198
01:30:19,305 --> 01:30:25,488
because our class differences and separations
grow more intense daily.
1199
01:30:25,488 --> 01:30:32,504
And we're asked to believe that there's still some
kind of R&B Blackness that unites us.
1200
01:30:32,504 --> 01:30:38,633
[ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ] Will you take the
patriarchal question? And then we're going to close.
1201
01:30:40,602 --> 01:30:43,161
[ MHP ] Yeah. Right, well, I think--we remember
the patriarchy question.
1202
01:30:43,161 --> 01:30:45,960
So, I guess the one thing I would say is--
1203
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:48,686
[ VIRGINIA ] I'll just say it again.
1204
01:30:48,686 --> 01:30:54,875
So how instrumental is the male and/or white ally
in our movement against patriarchy?
1205
01:30:54,875 --> 01:30:59,267
[ b.h. ] I've actually been questioning
this use of the word "ally" [ SOME LAUGHTER ]
1206
01:30:59,267 --> 01:31:03,391
because I think that if someone is standing
on their own beliefs,
1207
01:31:03,391 --> 01:31:13,401
and their own beliefs are anti-patriarchal, anti-sexist,
they are not required to be anybody's ally.
1208
01:31:13,401 --> 01:31:18,216
They are on their front line in the same way
that I'm on my front line.
1209
01:31:18,216 --> 01:31:23,964
And I can tell you, women, when you find those men
in patriarchy--gay, straight, trans*, whatever...
1210
01:31:23,964 --> 01:31:29,381
that are on the front line, we recognize them.
The sad truth is that there are so few of them.
1211
01:31:29,381 --> 01:31:32,377
[ AUDIBLE AGREEMENT FROM AUDIENCE ]
1212
01:31:32,377 --> 01:31:39,073
Okay. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND
APPLAUDING ] Are you saying something?
1213
01:31:39,073 --> 01:31:46,349
[ MHP ] Yeah, I mean, I guess I--so one thing
I would--so this is maybe my--this is my academic
1214
01:31:46,349 --> 01:31:48,234
this is my professorial self.
1215
01:31:48,234 --> 01:31:55,026
I worry anytime we expect--so sometimes one of the
pieces of language used, particularly in the academy-
1216
01:31:55,026 --> 01:31:58,641
-maybe it's also used in media--I'm not so sure-
is this idea of role modeling.
1217
01:31:58,641 --> 01:32:05,252
"We need you to be there in that body to role-model
to other people who have bodies similar to yours,
1218
01:32:05,252 --> 01:32:07,841
that these things are possible."
1219
01:32:07,841 --> 01:32:11,957
And I have very--I have very mixed emotions
about that role-modeling idea,
1220
01:32:11,957 --> 01:32:16,865
in part because I think that the imagination
of Black Americans is...
1221
01:32:16,865 --> 01:32:22,345
our sort of critical, moral, creative imagination is one
of our great accomplishments in the U.S. context.
1222
01:32:22,345 --> 01:32:26,230
Our ability to imagine freedom in the context
of intergenerational chattel bondage,
1223
01:32:26,230 --> 01:32:30,376
our ability to believe God loves us when there is no
empirical evidence that God does love us,
1224
01:32:30,376 --> 01:32:34,981
our willingness to engage. [ LAUGHTER ]
1225
01:32:34,981 --> 01:32:39,277
Right, so I actually don't know that we need to cease-
1226
01:32:39,277 --> 01:32:44,455
-I mean, I think part of our genius is that we don't
need to see it to nonetheless believe it & pursue it.
1227
01:32:44,455 --> 01:32:50,219
And in fact, even in as much as that is, I think a
unique--as Cornel West would say...
1228
01:32:50,219 --> 01:32:54,617
a unique gift of Black people
to the American Project, right?
1229
01:32:54,617 --> 01:32:59,558
I mean that's the language that he uses. It's one of
our gifts, particularly in the post-9/11 moment.
1230
01:32:59,558 --> 01:33:09,263
That as much as that is true, it's also been true of
even the nastiest low-down racist patriarchs of our nation.
1231
01:33:09,263 --> 01:33:11,576
So my daughter--and I promise I'm going to end-
1232
01:33:11,576 --> 01:33:15,031
my daughter is in 6th grade and she had to learn
the Declaration of Independence,
1233
01:33:15,031 --> 01:33:17,816
the little, you know, "We hold these truths to be self-
evident, that all men are created equal,
1234
01:33:17,816 --> 01:33:19,951
and endowed with their Creator
with certain inalienable rights,
1235
01:33:19,951 --> 01:33:22,174
that among these are Life, Liberty,
and the Pursuit of Happiness,
1236
01:33:22,174 --> 01:33:28,140
and governments are instituted among men
to protect these rights"--right, okay?
1237
01:33:28,140 --> 01:33:31,493
She was hot. Mad. [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ]
1238
01:33:31,493 --> 01:33:36,402
She was like, "This is some old bull. That was
not true! 1776, we were slaves, we couldn't vote."
1239
01:33:36,402 --> 01:33:43,542
She was mad, she was walking around the house,
mad! [ AUDIENCE LAUGHING ] Mad!
1240
01:33:43,542 --> 01:33:47,944
Now part of this 'cause she's in sixth grade, so
she's mad that the sun comes up, so she's just mad.
1241
01:33:47,944 --> 01:33:54,662
But she was mad behind this, and--but, so Thomas
Jefferson is vile. Like he just is vile, right?
1242
01:33:54,662 --> 01:33:57,532
He owns his own children at various points.
1243
01:33:57,532 --> 01:34:03,699
But--and this is the final ally--but he didn't write
a document that says,
1244
01:34:03,699 --> 01:34:10,158
"We think that maybe, possibly, old white men
with money are equal, in a few kind of ways,
1245
01:34:10,158 --> 01:34:11,857
and maybe they could get a gut"
1246
01:34:11,857 --> 01:34:15,544
that's what the Constitution says, [ LAUGHTER ]
1247
01:34:15,544 --> 01:34:20,338
but the Declaration of Independence
has a moral imagination
1248
01:34:20,338 --> 01:34:24,294
beyond the empirical reality of
the 1776 Monticello Mountain.
1249
01:34:24,294 --> 01:34:28,538
And so I don't know that I need
patriarchs and white men and...
1250
01:34:28,538 --> 01:34:33,358
but what I do... what is possible
on that kind of allied position,
1251
01:34:33,358 --> 01:34:38,071
is for them to imagine something bigger
than what is in this moment.
1252
01:34:38,071 --> 01:34:41,613
And so as much as I've had my little, you know,
critiques about--like, you know,
1253
01:34:41,613 --> 01:34:45,364
the people who work at MSNBC, in the leadership,
those old white guys,
1254
01:34:45,364 --> 01:34:47,272
who are rich and powerful and sit around a table,
1255
01:34:47,272 --> 01:34:51,954
and maybe someday... maybe today... will fire me,
and everyone else [ LAUGHTER ]
1256
01:34:51,954 --> 01:34:54,159
they nonetheless did... they could say,
1257
01:34:54,159 --> 01:34:57,885
"oh well, what if put a little gay girl on here
and what if we put a little Black girl on here."
1258
01:34:57,885 --> 01:35:00,732
"And maybe--oh and let the Asian girl"...and how...
1259
01:35:00,732 --> 01:35:06,629
and so those are things that required a little bit of...
it's not revolution.
1260
01:35:07,637 --> 01:35:11,203
[ MHP ] It's the opposite of revolution,
but it is a little imagination.
1261
01:35:11,203 --> 01:35:14,556
[ b.h. ] ...at heart, also, our movement
away from binaries.
1262
01:35:14,556 --> 01:35:17,830
So we would like to leave you with this whole notion
1263
01:35:17,830 --> 01:35:23,539
that if you work for freedom,
one of the ways that you can work for freedom,
1264
01:35:23,539 --> 01:35:31,225
is to change your mind and to move away from the
space of binaries, of simplistic either-or, both-and,
1265
01:35:31,225 --> 01:35:37,174
and to be able to look at the picture
that offers us complexity.
1266
01:35:37,174 --> 01:35:42,789
I want to thank Stephanie Browner, Heather
and Jennifer, for all their work,
1267
01:35:42,789 --> 01:35:50,522
and my sister, my soul sister, [ LAUGHTER ].
Melissa Harris-Perry, thank you for being here.
1268
01:35:50,522 --> 01:35:53,520
[ MHP ] Thank you, bell. Thank you, bell.
1269
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:56,609
[ PASSIONATE APPLAUSE AND CHEERING... ]