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Host: This morning, our first presenter[br]is doctor Frans de Waal.

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He directs the Living Links Center

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at the Yerkes National[br]Primate Research Center

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at Emory University.

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And his work as a primatologist

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has directed him[br]to today's idea worth sharing

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and that is morality without religion.

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So if you will, please,[br]join me in welcoming doctor Frans de Waal.

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(Applause)

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Frans de Waal: Good morning.

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It's a bit of a heavy topic, I think,[br]to start a day with -

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morality and religion...

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I work with animals, and I'll give you[br]a slightly different take.

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That could be the most appropriate talk[br]at a zoo, I think, to give.

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So let me say first[br]a few things about myself.

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I was born in Den Bosch,

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very close to Maastricht,[br]which was just mentioned -

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where the painter Hieronymus Bosch[br]named himself after.

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And I've always been very fond[br]of this painter

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who lived and worked in the 15th century.

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And what is interesting about him[br]in relation to morality

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is that he lived at a time[br]where religion's influence was waning,

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and he was sort of wondering, I think,

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what would happen with society[br]if there was no religion

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or if there was less religion.

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And so he painted this famous painting,[br]"The Garden of Earthly Delights,"

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which some have interpreted[br]as being humanity before the Fall,

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or being humanity without any Fall at all.

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And so it makes you wonder,

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what would happen if we hadn't tasted[br]the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,

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and what kind of morality would we have.

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Much later, as a student,[br]I went to a very different garden,

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a zoological garden in Arnhem[br]where we keep chimpanzees.

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This is me at an early age[br]with a baby chimpanzee.

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(Laughter)

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And I discovered there

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that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry[br]and wrote a book about it -

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The Chimpazee Politics,

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which is still in print, 25 years later.

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And at that time the focus[br]in a lot of animal research

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was on aggression and competition.

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I painted a whole picture[br]of the animal kingdom

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and humanity included, was that deep down[br]we are competitors, we are aggressive,

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we are all out[br]for our own profit, basically.

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This is the launch of my book.

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I'm not sure how well[br]the chimpanzees read it,

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but they surely seemed[br]interested in the book.

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(Laughter)

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Now in the process of doing all this work

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on power and dominance[br]and aggression and so on,

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I discovered that chimpanzees[br]reconcile after fights.

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And so what you see here[br]is two males who have had a fight.

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They ended up in a tree, and one of them[br]holds out a hand to the other.

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And about a second[br]after I took the picture,

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they came together in the fork of the tree

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and kissed and embraced each other.

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And this is very interesting

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because at the time, everything[br]was about competition and aggression,

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so it wouldn't make any sense.

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The only thing that matters[br]is that you win or you lose.

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But why reconcile after a fight?[br]That doesn't make any sense.

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This is the way bonobos do it.[br]Bonobos do everything with sex.

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And so they also reconcile with sex.

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But the principle is exactly the same.

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The principle is that you have[br]a valuable relationship

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that is damaged by conflict,[br]so you need to do something about it.

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So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,[br]and including humans also,

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started to change at that time.

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So we have this image in political[br]science, economics, the humanities,

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the philosophy for that matter,[br]that man is a wolf to man.

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And so deep down,[br]our nature is actually nasty.

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I think it's a very unfair[br]image for the wolf.

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The wolf is, after all,[br]a very cooperative animal.

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And that's why many of you[br]have a dog at home,

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which has all these characteristics also.

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And it's really unfair to humanity,

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because humanity is actually[br]much more cooperative and empathic

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than given credit for.

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So I started getting[br]interested in those issues

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and studying that in other animals.

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So these are the pillars of morality.

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If you ask anyone,[br]"What is morality based on?"

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these are the two factors[br]that always come out.

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One is reciprocity,

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and associated with it is a sense[br]of justice and a sense of fairness.

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And the other one is empathy[br]and compassion.

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And human morality is more than this,[br]but if you would remove these two pillars,

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there would be not much[br]remaining, I think.

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So they're absolutely essential.

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So let me give you a few examples here.

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This is a very old video[br]from the Yerkes Primate Center,

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where they trained[br]chimpanzees to cooperate.

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So this is already[br]about a hundred years ago

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about a hundred years ago,

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that we were doing[br]experiments on cooperation.

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What you have here is two[br]young chimpanzees who have a box,

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and the box is too heavy[br]for one chimp to pull in.

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And of course, there's food on the box.

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Otherwise they wouldn't[br]be pulling so hard.

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And so they're bringing in the box.

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And you can see that they're synchronized.

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You can see that they work together,[br]they pull at the same moment.

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It's already a big advance[br]over many other animals

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who wouldn't be able to do that.

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Now you're going to get[br]a more interesting picture,

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because now one[br]of the two chimps has been fed.

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So one of the two is not really interested[br]in the task anymore.

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(Laughter)

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(Laughter)

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(Laughter)

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[- and sometimes appears to convey[br]its wishes and meanings by gestures.]

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Now look at what happens[br]at the very end of this.

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(Laughter)

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He takes basically everything.

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(Laughter)

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There are two interesting[br]parts about this.

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One is that the chimp on the right

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has a full understanding[br]he needs the partner...

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So a full understanding[br]of the need for cooperation.

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The second one is that the partner[br]is willing to work

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even though he's not[br]interested in the food.

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Why would that be?

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Well, that probably[br]has to do with reciprocity.

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There's actually a lot of evidence[br]in primates and other animals

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that they return favors.

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He will get a return favor[br]at some point in the future.

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And so that's how this all operates.

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We do the same task with elephants.

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Now, it's very dangerous[br]to work with elephants.

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Another problem with elephants[br]is that you cannot make an apparatus

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that is too heavy for a single elephant.

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Now you can probably make it,

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but it's going to be a pretty[br]clumsy apparatus, I think.

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And so what we did in that case...

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We do these studies in Thailand[br]for Josh Plotnik...

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Is we have an apparatus around which[br]there is a rope, a single rope.

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And if you pull on this side of the rope,[br]the rope disappears on the other side.

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So two elephants need to pick it up[br]at exactly the same time, and pull.

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Otherwise nothing is going to happen[br]and the rope disappears.

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The first tape you're going to see

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is two elephants who are released together[br]arrive at the apparatus.

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The apparatus is on the left,[br]with food on it.

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And so they come together,[br]they arrive together,

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they pick it up together,[br]and they pull together.

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So it's actually fairly simple for them.

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There they are.

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So that's how they bring it in.

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But now we're going to make it[br]more difficult.

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Because the purpose of this experiment

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is to see how well[br]they understand cooperation.

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Do they understand that as well[br]as the chimps, for example?

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What we do in the next step is we release[br]one elephant before the other

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and that elephant needs to be smart enough

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to stay there and wait[br]and not pull at the rope...

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Because if he pulls at the rope,[br]it disappears and the whole test is over.

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Now this elephant does something illegal[br]that we did not teach it.

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But it shows the understanding he has,

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because he puts his big foot on the rope,

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stands on the rope[br]and waits there for the other,

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and then the other is going[br]to do all the work for him.

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So it's what we call freeloading.

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(Laughter)

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But it shows the intelligence[br]that the elephants have.

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They developed several[br]of these alternative techniques

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that we did not approve of, necessarily.

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(Laughter)

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So the other elephant is now coming...

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and is going to pull it in.

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Now look at the other;[br]it doesn't forget to eat, of course.

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(Laughter)

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This was the cooperation[br]and reciprocity part.

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Now something on empathy.

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Empathy is my main topic[br]at the moment, of research.

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And empathy has two qualities:

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One is the understanding part of it.

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This is just a regular definition:

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the ability to understand and share[br]the feelings of another.

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And the emotional part.

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Empathy has basically two channels:[br]One is the body channel,

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If you talk with a sad person,

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you're going to adopt[br]a sad expression and a sad posture,

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and before you know it, you feel sad.

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And that's sort of the body channel[br]of emotional empathy,

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which many animals have.

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Your average dog has that also.

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That's why people keep mammals in the home

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and not turtles or snakes[br]or something like that,

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who don't have that kind of empathy.

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And then there's a cognitive channel,

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which is more that you can take[br]the perspective of somebody else.

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And that's more limited.

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Very few animals, I think elephants[br]and apes, can do that kind of thing.

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So synchronization,

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which is part of that whole[br]empathy mechanism,

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is a very old one in the animal kingdom.

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In humans, of course,[br]we can study that with yawn contagion.

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Humans yawn when others yawn.

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And it's related to empathy.

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It activates the same areas in the brain.

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Also, we know that people[br]who have a lot of yawn contagion

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are highly empathic.

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People who have problems with empathy,[br]such as autistic children,

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they don't have yawn contagion.

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So it is connected.

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And we study that in our chimpanzees[br]by presenting them with an animated head.

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So that's what you see on the upper-left,[br]an animated head that yawns.

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And there's a chimpanzee watching,

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an actual real chimpanzee[br]watching a computer screen

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on which we play these animations.

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(Laughter)

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So yawn contagion[br]that you're probably all familiar with...

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And maybe you're going[br]to start yawning soon now...

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Is something that we share[br]with other animals.

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And that's related to that whole[br]body channel of synchronization

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that underlies empathy,

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and that is universal[br]in the mammals, basically.

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We also study more complex expressions...[br]This is consolation.

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This is a male chimpanzee[br]who has lost a fight and he's screaming,

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and a juvenile comes over[br]and puts an arm around him

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and calms him down.

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That's consolation.

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It's very similar to human consolation.

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And consolation behavior...

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(Laughter)

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it's empathy driven.

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Actually, the way to study[br]empathy in human children

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is to instruct a family member[br]to act distressed,

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and then to see what young children do.

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And so it is related to empathy,

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and that's the kind[br]of expressions we look at.

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We also recently published an experiment[br]you may have heard about.

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It's on altruism and chimpanzees,

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where the question is: Do chimpanzees care[br]about the welfare of somebody else?

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And for decades it had been assumed[br]that only humans can do that,

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that only humans worry[br]about the welfare of somebody else.

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Now we did a very simple experiment.

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We do that on chimpanzees[br]that live in Lawrenceville,

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in the field station of Yerkes.

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And so that's how they live.

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And we call them into a room[br]and do experiments with them.

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In this case, we put[br]two chimpanzees side-by-side,

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and one has a bucket full of tokens,[br]and the tokens have different meanings.

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One kind of token feeds[br]only the partner who chooses,

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the other one feeds both of them.

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You will see a little video of this.

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So this is a study we did[br]with Vicki Horner.

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And here, you have the two color tokens.

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So they have a whole bucket full of them.

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And they have to pick[br]one of the two colors.

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You will see how that goes.

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So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,

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which is the red token in this case,

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he needs to give it to us,

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we pick it up, we put it on a table[br]where there's two food rewards,

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but in this case, only the one[br]on the right gets food.

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The one on the left walks away[br]because she knows already

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that this is not a good test for her.

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Then the next one is the pro-social token.

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So the one who makes the choices...[br]That's the interesting part here...

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For the one who makes the choices,[br]it doesn't really matter.

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So she gives us now a pro-social[br]token and both chimps get fed.

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So the one who makes the choices[br]always gets a reward.

0:12:46.000,0:12:47.578
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.

0:12:47.602,0:12:50.096
And she should actually[br]be choosing blindly.

0:12:50.922,0:12:54.281
But what we find is that they prefer[br]the pro-social token.

0:12:54.305,0:12:57.299
So this is the 50 percent line,[br]that's the random expectation.

0:12:57.323,0:13:01.272
And especially if the partner draws[br]attention to itself, they choose more.

0:13:01.296,0:13:03.304
And if the partner[br]puts pressure on them...

0:13:03.328,0:13:06.467
So if the partner starts spitting water[br]and intimidating them...

0:13:06.491,0:13:08.019
Then the choices go down.

0:13:08.043,0:13:09.082
(Laughter)

0:13:10.406,0:13:12.276
It's as if they're saying,

0:13:12.300,0:13:15.287
"If you're not behaving,[br]I'm not going to be pro-social today."

0:13:15.311,0:13:17.315
And this is what happens[br]without a partner,

0:13:17.339,0:13:19.153
when there's no partner sitting there.

0:13:19.177,0:13:22.996
So we found that the chimpanzees do care[br]about the well-being of somebody else...

0:13:23.020,0:13:25.643
Especially, these are other members[br]of their own group.

0:13:25.675,0:13:28.444
So the final experiment[br]that I want to mention to you

0:13:28.468,0:13:30.115
is our fairness study.

0:13:30.139,0:13:33.029
And so this became a very famous study.

0:13:33.053,0:13:34.476
And there are now many more,

0:13:34.500,0:13:36.643
because after we did this[br]about 10 years ago,

0:13:36.667,0:13:38.476
it became very well-known.

0:13:39.024,0:13:41.317
And we did that originally[br]with Capuchin monkeys.

0:13:41.341,0:13:44.131
And I'm going to show you[br]the first experiment that we did.

0:13:44.155,0:13:46.967
It has now been done[br]with dogs and with birds

0:13:46.991,0:13:48.476
and with chimpanzees.

0:13:49.645,0:13:53.076
But with Sarah Brosnan,[br]we started out with Capuchin monkeys.

0:13:53.618,0:13:56.823
So what we did is we put[br]two Capuchin monkeys side-by-side.

0:13:56.847,0:13:59.676
Again, these animals, live in a group,[br]they know each other.

0:13:59.700,0:14:02.454
We take them out of the group,[br]put them in a test chamber.

0:14:02.995,0:14:06.090
And there's a very simple task[br]that they need to do.

0:14:06.565,0:14:09.945
And if you give both of them[br]cucumber for the task,

0:14:09.969,0:14:11.399
the two monkeys side-by-side,

0:14:11.423,0:14:14.253
they're perfectly willing[br]to do this 25 times in a row.

0:14:14.277,0:14:17.724
So cucumber, even though[br]it's only really water in my opinion,

0:14:17.748,0:14:20.986
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.

0:14:21.010,0:14:23.293
Now if you give the partner grapes...

0:14:23.317,0:14:25.464
The food preferences[br]of my Capuchin monkeys

0:14:25.488,0:14:28.528
correspond exactly with the prices[br]in the supermarket...

0:14:28.552,0:14:31.957
And so if you give them grapes...[br]It's a far better food...

0:14:31.981,0:14:34.184
Then you create inequity between them.

0:14:34.902,0:14:36.748
So that's the experiment we did.

0:14:36.765,0:14:39.812
And I'm going to show you[br]a little videotape of this.

0:14:40.372,0:14:42.453
Recently, we videotaped it[br]with new monkeys

0:14:42.477,0:14:43.814
who'd never done the task,

0:14:43.838,0:14:46.470
thinking that maybe they would have[br]a stronger reaction,

0:14:46.494,0:14:48.033
and that turned out to be right.

0:14:48.057,0:14:50.553
The one on the left is the monkey[br]who gets cucumber.

0:14:50.577,0:14:52.836
The one on the right[br]is the one who gets grapes.

0:14:53.260,0:14:54.607
The one who gets cucumber...

0:14:54.631,0:14:57.341
Note that the first piece[br]of cucumber is perfectly fine.

0:14:57.451,0:14:59.176
The first piece she eats.

0:14:59.600,0:15:03.205
Then she sees the other one getting grape,[br]and you will see what happens.

0:15:04.694,0:15:07.273
So she gives a rock to us.[br]That's the task.

0:15:07.297,0:15:10.355
And we give her a piece[br]of cucumber and she eats it.

0:15:10.379,0:15:12.376
The other one needs to give a rock to us.

0:15:13.788,0:15:15.576
And that's what she does.

0:15:16.187,0:15:17.799
And she gets a grape...

0:15:19.179,0:15:20.342
and eats it.

0:15:20.366,0:15:21.561
The other one sees that.

0:15:21.585,0:15:22.901
She gives a rock to us now,

0:15:22.925,0:15:24.497
gets, again, cucumber.

0:15:27.960,0:15:34.960
(Laughter)

0:15:41.341,0:15:43.342
(Laughter ends)

0:15:43.366,0:15:46.341
She tests a rock now against the wall.

0:15:46.365,0:15:47.721
She needs to give it to us.

0:15:48.584,0:15:50.600
And she gets cucumber again.

0:15:52.943,0:15:59.399
(Laughter)

0:16:02.051,0:16:05.180
So this is basically[br]the Wall Street protest that you see here.

0:16:05.204,0:16:07.576
(Laughter)

0:16:07.600,0:16:11.826
(Applause)

0:16:12.777,0:16:14.563
I still have two minutes left...

0:16:14.587,0:16:16.550
Let me tell you a funny story about this.

0:16:16.561,0:16:20.171
This study became very famous[br]and we got a lot of comments,

0:16:20.195,0:16:23.801
especially anthropologists,[br]economists, philosophers.

0:16:23.825,0:16:25.233
They didn't like this at all.

0:16:25.257,0:16:27.819
Because they had decided[br]in their minds, I believe,

0:16:27.843,0:16:31.887
that fairness is a very complex issue,[br]and that animals cannot have it.

0:16:31.912,0:16:34.375
And so one philosopher even wrote us

0:16:34.399,0:16:37.173
that it was impossible that monkeys[br]had a sense of fairness

0:16:37.197,0:16:39.978
because fairness was invented[br]during the French Revolution.

0:16:40.002,0:16:42.419
(Laughter)

0:16:42.443,0:16:45.125
And another one wrote a whole chapter

0:16:45.149,0:16:48.676
saying that he would believe[br]it had something to do with fairness,

0:16:48.700,0:16:51.097
if the one who got grapes[br]would refuse the grapes.

0:16:51.121,0:16:54.993
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan,[br]who's been doing this with chimpanzees,

0:16:55.017,0:16:57.163
had a couple of combinations[br]of chimpanzees

0:16:57.187,0:16:59.543
where, indeed, the one[br]who would get the grape

0:16:59.567,0:17:02.473
would refuse the grape[br]until the other guy also got a grape.

0:17:02.497,0:17:05.263
So we're getting very close[br]to the human sense of fairness.

0:17:05.288,0:17:08.723
And I think philosophers need[br]to rethink their philosophy for a while.

0:17:09.358,0:17:10.675
So let me summarize.

0:17:11.291,0:17:13.104
I believe there's an evolved morality.

0:17:13.127,0:17:16.347
I think morality is much more[br]than what I've been talking about,

0:17:16.371,0:17:18.821
but it would be impossible[br]without these ingredients

0:17:18.846,0:17:20.344
that we find in other primates,

0:17:20.367,0:17:22.204
which are empathy and consolation,

0:17:22.229,0:17:25.935
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity[br]and a sense of fairness.

0:17:25.959,0:17:28.016
And so we work on these particular issues

0:17:28.040,0:17:31.385
to see if we can create a morality[br]from the bottom up, so to speak,

0:17:31.409,0:17:33.842
without necessarily[br]god and religion involved,

0:17:33.866,0:17:36.332
and to see how we can get[br]to an evolved morality.

0:17:36.766,0:17:38.506
And I thank you for your attention.

0:17:38.530,0:17:45.530
(Applause)