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Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:20.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}36C3 preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.01,0:00:26.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: The next talk is "5G & Net\NNeutrality". The status of the net
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.27,0:00:30.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,neutrality reform in Europe and the\Npresenter is Thomas Lohninger from
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.87,0:00:35.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,epicenter.works and I'm very happy he's\Nhere today with us. So please give a big
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.76,0:00:40.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applause to Thomas Lohninger. Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.77,0:00:43.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:43.56,0:00:50.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thomas Lohninger: Hello. Here we go again.\NYeah. Hello and welcome, everybody. I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:00:50.09,0:00:56.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to talk a little bit about net\Nneutrality. This is not my first talk
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.23,0:01:00.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about this issue here at congress. I\Noriginally joined the net neutrality
Dialogue: 0,0:01:00.77,0:01:06.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,debate because I really found it to be an\Nimportant issue. I liked it as a
Dialogue: 0,0:01:06.17,0:01:11.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,philosophical concept of the Internet\Nserving the edges and also because back
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.30,0:01:15.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then it was still a very young debate. You\Ncould still read up on all the legislation
Dialogue: 0,0:01:15.07,0:01:20.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around the world because there was so\Nlittle about it. And a decade later, there
Dialogue: 0,0:01:20.34,0:01:25.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is more legislation, the debate has moved\Non a lot. Of course, in the U.S. it has
Dialogue: 0,0:01:25.15,0:01:30.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been first and foremost after Trump\Nrepealed the Obama era rules. And in
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.60,0:01:35.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Europe, we feel like we're a little bit\Nstuck in time. And I also want to explain
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.03,0:01:39.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we currently are and where we are\Nheading. So it is an update, but it's also
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.37,0:01:43.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an update with little bit of a\Nperspective and might even have a silver
Dialogue: 0,0:01:43.40,0:01:48.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lining. But before we do that, we first\Nhave to go back to the beginning and
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.70,0:01:53.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,explain what net neutrality is. If you are\Nin the U.S. and you ask anybody serving
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.52,0:01:57.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coffee on the train, they will know it.\NBut in Europe, it is still something that
Dialogue: 0,0:01:57.29,0:02:02.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe needs to be explained. In general,\Nnet neutrality means that all bits should
Dialogue: 0,0:02:02.76,0:02:07.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be created equal, that the network should\Nnot make distinctions about our data
Dialogue: 0,0:02:07.47,0:02:12.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,packages, how important they are if the\Nchecksum is correct. Of course, if to
Dialogue: 0,0:02:12.40,0:02:17.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,check some is correct but also a lot like,\Nis this a valid feature for this
Dialogue: 0,0:02:17.28,0:02:22.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,application? Is this a legal transmission?\NAll of these decisions should not be made
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.95,0:02:26.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the network because they should be made\Nby the end points by the applications on
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.89,0:02:32.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either side. The easiest way to understand\Nnet neutrality is if you compare it with
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.68,0:02:38.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,previous global telecommunication\Nnetworks. In the television system you
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.81,0:02:42.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also have a global communication network\Nbut it takes a lot of money to actually
Dialogue: 0,0:02:42.98,0:02:47.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a voice there, to start a television\Nchannel. So you're just consuming, it is
Dialogue: 0,0:02:47.56,0:02:52.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not a bidirectional network. Telephony\Nallows that, it's a global network system
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.75,0:02:57.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you have a central entity that decides\Nif you're allowed to make that call and
Dialogue: 0,0:02:57.59,0:03:02.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the cost of that call per duration\Nwill be. That's not the case with the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.47,0:03:06.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Internet. And in a way, net neutrality is\Njust trying to protect these inherent
Dialogue: 0,0:03:06.28,0:03:11.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,principles that the Internet was born with\Nfrom undue discrimination of network
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.08,0:03:16.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,operators, of telecom companies, or ISPs.\NAnd telecom companies can discriminate or
Dialogue: 0,0:03:16.82,0:03:21.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interfere with our traffic more or less in\Ntwo ways. The first is technical by
Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.31,0:03:26.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prioritizing or throttling certain data\Npackages, also modifying them or blocking
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.20,0:03:32.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them completely. And the second way to\Ninfluence them is by so-called zero rating
Dialogue: 0,0:03:32.83,0:03:37.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by making certain data more or less\Nexpensive, cheaper, or more expensive, or
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.91,0:03:43.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as exempting certain applications from\Nyour monthly data cap at all. And that all
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.42,0:03:50.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,creates a system where certain big players\Nhave it easier to get rich, to grow, to
Dialogue: 0,0:03:50.29,0:03:56.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,innovate, and others have a harder time to\Neven being noticed or growing. And it can
Dialogue: 0,0:03:56.03,0:04:00.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also be summarized by the principle of\Ninnovation without permission so that you
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.21,0:04:05.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can just start a new service, you don't\Nneed a license to start an app,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.29,0:04:10.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you don't need to network to support your new\Nfunctionality. The open layered
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.58,0:04:17.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,architecture of the internet is protecting\Nthis innovative capacity, and that even
Dialogue: 0,0:04:17.08,0:04:25.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allowed this young man in 2004 to create the\NFacebook.com in his college dorm. The
Dialogue: 0,0:04:25.36,0:04:30.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,total cost of operating the server in the\Nbeginning was 85$ per month. And you would
Dialogue: 0,0:04:30.23,0:04:32.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ask yourself: "OK but isn't Mark\NZuckerberg and Facebook really a horrible
Dialogue: 0,0:04:32.88,0:04:36.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,person, the company?" Yes, they are.\NThat's also why they are against net
Dialogue: 0,0:04:36.79,0:04:43.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,neutrality these days. Facebook is one of\Nthe most violating companies around the
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.09,0:04:49.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,world because their program free basic,\Nis really the opposite of net neutrality.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.23,0:04:52.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What they are doing there is basically\Ncreating a walled garden for the global
Dialogue: 0,0:04:52.33,0:04:57.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,south. The most vulnerable people on this\Nplanet that do not get the full internet
Dialogue: 0,0:04:57.09,0:05:03.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,access but what they got is a way of being\Nmarketed to via their Facebook services,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:03.92,0:05:09.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course, without any privacy. And\Nsimilarly, also, Netflix was once a
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.16,0:05:14.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,company strongly on our side supporting\Nnet neutrality. And then when it was clear
Dialogue: 0,0:05:14.71,0:05:19.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Trump would repeal the Obama era net\Nneutrality rules, the Netflix CEO said to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.73,0:05:24.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their shareholders: "Don't worry, we are\Nnow big enough that we can survive without
Dialogue: 0,0:05:24.38,0:05:28.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,net neutrality." So inherently, this\Nprinciple protects the underrepresented
Dialogue: 0,0:05:28.69,0:05:35.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,voices and the small players, the ones\Nthat still need to grow. And it is not the
Dialogue: 0,0:05:35.02,0:05:38.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,silver stick that will solve all of the\Nproblems from the previous talk to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.85,0:05:43.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problems we have with the big platforms\Nbut if we lose net neutrality, we more or
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.33,0:05:47.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,less freeze the current dominant players\Nforever because it would be really hard
Dialogue: 0,0:05:47.39,0:05:53.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for anybody else to ever become as big.\NAnd so it's all about that right column
Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.97,0:05:59.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here. Where are we in Europe? In Europe,\Nwe started the discussion around net
Dialogue: 0,0:05:59.71,0:06:03.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,neutrality in 2011/12. There were the\Nfirst non-binding resolutions of the
Dialogue: 0,0:06:03.79,0:06:10.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,parliament calling for net neutrality\Nprotections. And it all culminated in 2013
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.02,0:06:13.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when the commission released their\Nproposal for really an anti net
Dialogue: 0,0:06:13.76,0:06:19.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,neutrality bill. So we have to turn the\Nship 180° around to get it back on track.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:19.35,0:06:23.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we did that with the\Nsavetheinternet.eu campaign, which was
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.98,0:06:28.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hosted by big coalition of NGOs all around\NEurope. And we followed the legislative
Dialogue: 0,0:06:28.67,0:06:33.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,process for two and a half years with\Nseven iterations of that campaign always
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.42,0:06:38.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,changing our means from faxing to the\Nparliament to making phone calls to just
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.49,0:06:43.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mass bombarding the embassies to sending\Ncomments to the regulators in the
Dialogue: 0,0:06:43.18,0:06:48.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consultation period. We also demonstrated\Nin Riga, in Barcelona, in Bonn, in
Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.20,0:06:53.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Brussels, in Vienna. And at the end we got\Na net neutrality law. The open internet
Dialogue: 0,0:06:53.54,0:07:00.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regulation was adopted in 2015 and it was\Nfurther, then, implemented by the BEREC
Dialogue: 0,0:07:00.42,0:07:04.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,guidelines that are kind of the handbook\Nfor the guys who actually have to enforce
Dialogue: 0,0:07:04.84,0:07:09.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the law, telecom regulators. And telecom\Nregulators will be important in the rest
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.04,0:07:15.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the talk because that's where the\Naction currently lies. And so this was in
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.32,0:07:20.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2016. And in January of 2019, we released\Nthis report, which was really more
Dialogue: 0,0:07:20.26,0:07:26.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,academic exercise of summarizing\Neverything that has happened since. So
Dialogue: 0,0:07:26.61,0:07:29.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's really the one thing you should read\Nif you want to know how a t neutrality
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.51,0:07:34.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has played out over the past two and a\Nhalf years. That's a table of content and
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.29,0:07:39.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a lot of it in there from\Nanalyzing 800 pages of annual reporting,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.72,0:07:44.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going through case law, and looking ahead\Nabout 5G. But the most important thing
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.74,0:07:48.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was the chapter about zero rating, because\Nthat's where the debate currently is
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.35,0:07:53.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,focused on in Europe. And in order to\Nbring this debate back to a factual basis,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.62,0:07:59.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we actually did a lot of work. With doing\Na complete survey of all zero rating
Dialogue: 0,0:07:59.42,0:08:04.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,offers in the European economic area. I\Ndon't think that anything like this was
Dialogue: 0,0:08:04.71,0:08:11.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ever done before also because it wasn't\Neasy. We went through 32 countries. So all
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.79,0:08:15.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the European economic area that this\Nlaw applies to, including Switzerland,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.84,0:08:20.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we have German speakers in our\Nteam, so it was not that hard. That meant
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.81,0:08:26.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in total, going through the websites of\N225 mobile operators, both those that have
Dialogue: 0,0:08:26.66,0:08:32.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their own network as well as the virtual\Nones. And we collected the data with in
Dialogue: 0,0:08:32.14,0:08:37.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,total five people that spoke six languages\Nand worked for over four months on this.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:37.25,0:08:44.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We found 186 net neutrality violations in\Nthe form of zero rating programs. And all
Dialogue: 0,0:08:44.28,0:08:49.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of that data is openly accessible. It's\Nlinked in the report. It's all online in a
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.08,0:08:55.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,free format and used under a CC BY-SA\Nlicense, so share alike.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:55.63,0:09:02.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.70,0:09:06.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've given that talk in front of many\Nregulators. You're the first ones to
Dialogue: 0,0:09:06.83,0:09:11.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applaud. I really like that. And the SA,\Nof course, because we think this data
Dialogue: 0,0:09:11.56,0:09:17.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should remain free. We can always disagree\Non the interpretation but at least the
Dialogue: 0,0:09:17.01,0:09:23.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,facts, the data itself should be openly\Naccessible to everybody and scrutinized by
Dialogue: 0,0:09:23.27,0:09:27.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everybody as well. And I've seen other\Npeople actually using that data for
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.68,0:09:33.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,commercial purposes, which we would even\Nallow but not sharing it back, which is a
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.72,0:09:39.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sad thing. So what is in that dataset? You\Ncould see this zero-rating is really a big
Dialogue: 0,0:09:39.70,0:09:45.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problem. All but two European countries,\Nyou have these problems. Finland doesn't
Dialogue: 0,0:09:45.13,0:09:49.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have that problem because they don't have\Ndata caps anymore. If you buy a SIM card
Dialogue: 0,0:09:49.16,0:09:53.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Finland, you'll get a flat rate. The\Nonly distinction there is the speed, the
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.70,0:09:58.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bandwidth that is available to you. But\Nyou know, I have no data caps at all and
Dialogue: 0,0:09:58.65,0:10:02.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bulgaria also doesn't have zero-rating. If\Nwe look at the application side and that's
Dialogue: 0,0:10:02.95,0:10:08.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually the very interesting takeaway for\Nyou. These are the applications that most
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.42,0:10:15.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,profit from zero-rating. So WhatsApp leads\Nbefore 50 zero-rating deals in Europe. And
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.05,0:10:20.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the second to follow is Facebook and also\NFacebook messenger in there. In total,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:20.34,0:10:24.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,many of these companies that profit are\Nfrom the U.S., only 3 European
Dialogue: 0,0:10:24.96,0:10:31.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applications are actually in the top 20 of\Nzero-rating. And that is the overall
Dialogue: 0,0:10:31.18,0:10:38.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,number and there we just looked at the\Ngeographical home of the applications in
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.36,0:10:43.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the classical zero-rating programs. You\Nknow, the ones where you have a youth
Dialogue: 0,0:10:43.33,0:10:50.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tariff in Portugal and you can pick either\NWhatsApp or Telegram or you have YouTube
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.10,0:10:55.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is for free. Some ISP is actually do that.\NAnd if you just look at these close
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.19,0:11:00.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,programs of only have hand selected\Napplications, the majority of the apps are
Dialogue: 0,0:11:00.34,0:11:04.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the U.S., of course, the big\Nincumbents. But there is also around a
Dialogue: 0,0:11:04.83,0:11:11.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,third of applications which are of zero-\Nrating programs which are open. Open
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.31,0:11:16.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,programs allow other applications to join.\NThink of StreamOn here in Germany or
Dialogue: 0,0:11:16.27,0:11:21.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Vodafone Pass or smartnet in Portugal.\NThese programs are actually trying to
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.88,0:11:26.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,balance the scale a little bit. They are\Nactually trying to learn from our critique
Dialogue: 0,0:11:26.74,0:11:32.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and allow other applications to join. And\Nthen if we add those to statistics, we
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.97,0:11:37.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,see that the majority of apps are suddenly\Nfrom the same country where the internet
Dialogue: 0,0:11:37.17,0:11:40.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,service is offered. All of these local\Nradio stations in Germany, for some
Dialogue: 0,0:11:40.79,0:11:44.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reason, join StreamOn in order to be\Nexempt from the data volume, the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:44.77,0:11:49.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ridiculously low data volume from Deutsche\NTelekom. And then into second place is
Dialogue: 0,0:11:49.57,0:11:54.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,still have the U.S. and most\Ninterestingly, the European economic area.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.42,0:12:00.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So apps from other EU countries are really\Ndown below. So one could easily make the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:00.67,0:12:05.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interpretation of that data that we\Nactually create new barriers for cross-
Dialogue: 0,0:12:05.06,0:12:10.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,border provisioning of services in the\NEuropean digital single market. And if you
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.78,0:12:17.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then just count, how many of these zero-\Nrating programs does an app usually join.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:17.11,0:12:21.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have a stark pick fit one to three and\Nthen it drastically goes down until you
Dialogue: 0,0:12:21.15,0:12:26.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have the 31 - 52 column at the right,\Nwhich is the top 20. So there is an
Dialogue: 0,0:12:26.57,0:12:30.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inherent difficulty to actually sign up to\Nthese so-called open nondiscriminatory
Dialogue: 0,0:12:30.60,0:12:36.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,zero-rating programs. What Europe has\Ncreated here is actually another reason
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.46,0:12:40.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why it will be difficult for the European\Ninternet industry to be competitive
Dialogue: 0,0:12:40.79,0:12:46.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because these are all new entry barriers\Ninto markets in other EU countries. And we
Dialogue: 0,0:12:46.36,0:12:51.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really have to explain this to the\Nregulators. And if you just go and take the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.64,0:12:55.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perspective of an application, you want to\Njoin a zero-rating program, what do you
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.06,0:12:59.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to do? First, you have to find out\Nthat it even exists. We did that mapping
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.93,0:13:04.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we didn't know. And there is no\Nagency that also sells that data. So
Dialogue: 0,0:13:04.64,0:13:07.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,obtaining knowledge about the programs\Nthat you might want to join because you
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.53,0:13:12.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might want to offer a competitive service\Nto people in that country of that ISP is
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.99,0:13:17.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the first step. And then secondly, you\Nhave to request the documents, sign an NDA
Dialogue: 0,0:13:17.76,0:13:22.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even, to even find out how the open\NInternet works with this mobile operators.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.31,0:13:26.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Third, you have to read the contract for\Nwhich for many start-ups is already a
Dialogue: 0,0:13:26.65,0:13:31.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problem. Sign it and prepare for the\Nliability because you are liable for
Dialogue: 0,0:13:31.36,0:13:37.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wrongfully billed data volume, which can\Nbe really problematic. If your app is
Dialogue: 0,0:13:37.03,0:13:43.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,producing a lot of data or widely used by\Ncertain people. The technical aspect that
Dialogue: 0,0:13:43.62,0:13:47.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,comes into play here is that of course you\Nare then responsible for providing
Dialogue: 0,0:13:47.82,0:13:53.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identification criteria. If suddenly your\Ndata packages need to be counted
Dialogue: 0,0:13:53.56,0:13:58.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,differently, go against not a general data\Nvolume but an application specific volume
Dialogue: 0,0:13:58.95,0:14:03.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,per month or are completely exempt from\Nthe data cap. Then you, in order to make
Dialogue: 0,0:14:03.57,0:14:07.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that assessment, need to identify those\Ndata packages, which of course only works
Dialogue: 0,0:14:07.85,0:14:13.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with deep packet inspection in most cases.\NIn some cases, you also have to modify
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.44,0:14:19.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your service in order to even enter into\Nthat deal. Spotify in Germany with
Dialogue: 0,0:14:19.88,0:14:24.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,StreamOn only wanted their premium\Ncustomers to benefit from the zero-rating.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:24.94,0:14:29.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they tried to separate the ad-based\Nfree version of the Spotify program from
Dialogue: 0,0:14:29.46,0:14:34.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the premium customers that are paying.\NThey tried for four months. Then they gave
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.57,0:14:39.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up. So the business decision of that app\Nprovider was directly affected by these
Dialogue: 0,0:14:39.45,0:14:45.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,zero-rating programs. Next, whenever you\Nmake a change to your own service or
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.44,0:14:49.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,infrastructure, you change your CDN\Nprovider or whatever you have to give 30
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.95,0:14:56.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,days prior notice to the ISP so that they\Ncan change their DPI equipment to adopt
Dialogue: 0,0:14:56.63,0:15:01.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this change, which of course is a big\Nhindrance for innovation and in some
Dialogue: 0,0:15:01.80,0:15:06.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contracts that we've analyzed, it also\Nincludes giving access to beta versions of
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.49,0:15:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your own app. And lastly, in the case of\NVodafone, you also have to sign and
Dialogue: 0,0:15:10.96,0:15:17.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,execute marketing agreement so they want\Nto advertise with your app. So there is a
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.73,0:15:22.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lot of hoops to jump through in order to\Nbe admitted into one of these zero-rating
Dialogue: 0,0:15:22.35,0:15:26.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,programs. So you'd think at least they'd\Ndo a lot of effort on the telco side to
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.10,0:15:31.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make it easier for you. So for this\Nsurvey, we actually created a fake
Dialogue: 0,0:15:31.52,0:15:36.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,application and we tried to apply to zero-\Nrating programs. We said "Hello. We are a
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.57,0:15:40.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,student group. We are working out of a\Ngarage. We have that cool app. We want to
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.57,0:15:44.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,join your program." And we just counted\Nthe duration until we got a response. In
Dialogue: 0,0:15:44.12,0:15:49.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,two cases we got a response within a day,\Nin five cases we got a response within a
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.65,0:15:54.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,week, in one case within a month, and in\Nhalf of the cases we never got a response
Dialogue: 0,0:15:54.57,0:16:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at all - so not after three months, they\Nnever got back to us. So that truly shows
Dialogue: 0,0:16:00.22,0:16:04.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there is a big problem with these\Nopen programs. And I'm going to soon show
Dialogue: 0,0:16:04.50,0:16:10.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you how the regulators have reacted to\Nthis report in their reform. But another
Dialogue: 0,0:16:10.55,0:16:15.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more general thing is speed testing\Nbecause in Europe, net neutrality also
Dialogue: 0,0:16:15.01,0:16:21.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,brought us the right to contractually\Nagreed speeds, for our Internet access. In no
Dialogue: 0,0:16:21.73,0:16:26.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other area and economy, You would buy up\Nto 8 apples for 5€. But in Internet, for
Dialogue: 0,0:16:26.83,0:16:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some reason, that's the case. And so the\NEuropean Parliament was keen to adopt
Dialogue: 0,0:16:32.50,0:16:37.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rules that were giving each and every\Nconsumer in their contract at a minimum,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:37.08,0:16:41.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an average and the maximum speed that an\NISP has to deliver. But how do you then
Dialogue: 0,0:16:41.100,0:16:45.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,measure the speed ? Speedtest.net is\Nreally not a good site if you look at
Dialogue: 0,0:16:45.63,0:16:49.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their business model. So regulators are\Noften the ones that should offer these
Dialogue: 0,0:16:49.09,0:16:56.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,speed tolls. And BEREC recently released\Nan open source speed test measurement tool
Dialogue: 0,0:16:56.27,0:17:01.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that hopefully will also change another\Nproblem that are going to show you. In
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.20,0:17:05.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Norway, the telecom regulator Nkom is\Nactually really good at showing how the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.36,0:17:09.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Internet is improving year by year in the\Ncountry. And of course, fiber is hitting
Dialogue: 0,0:17:09.91,0:17:14.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through the roof and it's really good. And\Nin general, we see that the Internet is
Dialogue: 0,0:17:14.47,0:17:21.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,improving healthily and the supply is\Nincreasing to meet the demand. Austria -
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.55,0:17:25.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,similar picture - regulators reporting the\Nnumbers every year. So we know how the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:25.63,0:17:29.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Internet is actually developing in these\Ncountries. You would assume that in
Dialogue: 0,0:17:29.31,0:17:34.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Western countries this is a given. It is\Nalso an obligation under the law. They
Dialogue: 0,0:17:34.13,0:17:38.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really have to do that. But sadly, only\Neight countries are actually reporting
Dialogue: 0,0:17:38.05,0:17:44.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,figures. If the internet supply is\Nactually increasing. Twenty three
Dialogue: 0,0:17:44.17,0:17:49.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,countries released no numbers at all about\Nwhether the internet capacity is actually
Dialogue: 0,0:17:49.86,0:17:54.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,constantly meeting the increasing demand,\Nwhich we see as a big problem,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:54.23,0:17:59.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly with 5G, because that will\Nmean that the last mile will suddenly
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.26,0:18:04.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be very fast, but the rest of the network\Nto core, the backhaul, this is where the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:04.05,0:18:08.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,next bottleneck will lie. And if we don't\Ninvest there soon enough, we'll really
Dialogue: 0,0:18:08.28,0:18:14.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a big infrastructural problem in the\Nforeseeable future. So coming to the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.51,0:18:20.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reform. So what is on the table? First,\Nthis is not a legislative reform. Contrary
Dialogue: 0,0:18:20.06,0:18:23.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the previous talk that I've given, this\Nis not about engaging with the commission
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.35,0:18:28.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to parliament or the council. This is all\Nabout the regulatory community, like with
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.08,0:18:33.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the GDPR privacy law it's great when we as\Nactivists proud our head and shoulders that
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.08,0:18:39.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we actually managed to get a law approved\Nand then the sad awakening comes. Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:39.15,0:18:43.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the guys who are in charge with\Nenforcing the law are really not
Dialogue: 0,0:18:43.18,0:18:47.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly motivated to do so. And then\Nyou are stuck in Ireland with the data
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.53,0:18:52.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protection authority for years. And your\Nbiggest problem is that they are not doing
Dialogue: 0,0:18:52.13,0:18:56.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their job. Similarly, in telecom\Nregulation, what we have found is the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:56.92,0:19:01.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,biggest problem is to get the regulator to\Ndo their job. And that needs a lot of name
Dialogue: 0,0:19:01.90,0:19:06.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,calling and submissions and talks with\Nthem, which is really frustrating because
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.95,0:19:12.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it should not be the jobs of activists to\Nenforce legislation. It should be the task
Dialogue: 0,0:19:12.00,0:19:19.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of well funded regulators. So in that\Nreform, we are kind of in the middle. The
Dialogue: 0,0:19:19.72,0:19:25.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scope was released in 2018. In May, we had\Nan official stakeholder workshop which
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.73,0:19:31.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went for five hours and was a busy\Ngladiator debate. And October/November the
Dialogue: 0,0:19:31.04,0:19:34.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,draft guidelines were released and\Npublicly consulted. About 50 stakeholders
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.61,0:19:39.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,participated, we were one of them. And now\NBEREC has all of the input on their draft
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.91,0:19:46.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,guidelines and most likely in Q1 2020 will\Nsee an interim report summarizing that
Dialogue: 0,0:19:46.04,0:19:50.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consultation, which again will be\Nconsulted. We would like that to happen
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.58,0:19:54.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it would allow us to respond to\Ncomments from the telecom industry and to
Dialogue: 0,0:19:54.33,0:19:59.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of have a more Ping-Pong debate. And\Nfinally, that all should come to a close
Dialogue: 0,0:19:59.53,0:20:05.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in June 2020 when the new rules are\Nadopted. So now I'm gonna go into what is
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.69,0:20:11.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually in that draft and what to expect\Ncontent-wise from the topic. As you have
Dialogue: 0,0:20:11.92,0:20:15.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seen in the title, what we are mostly\Ntalking about these days is 5G, the next
Dialogue: 0,0:20:15.75,0:20:19.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mobile network generation. You must have\Nheard about it. The telecom industry
Dialogue: 0,0:20:19.82,0:20:25.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really has spent millions and millions in\Nadvertisement to make people interested in
Dialogue: 0,0:20:25.25,0:20:30.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,5G. We have that whole trade war between\NTrump and Huawei going on and there are
Dialogue: 0,0:20:30.85,0:20:37.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people talking about health risk, which is\Nmostly overblown but still 5G is really
Dialogue: 0,0:20:37.03,0:20:42.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,portrayed as the revolutionary new\Ntechnology. Sadly, that's quite far away
Dialogue: 0,0:20:42.57,0:20:49.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the truth. 5G is an evolution. If\Nyou've listened to the talk yesterday
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.19,0:20:53.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,morning in German about the path from 4G\Nto 5G, you will know that technology wise
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.43,0:21:01.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,5G is a very interesting technology. And\Nas a nerd, I find it interesting but.. The
Dialogue: 0,0:21:01.01,0:21:04.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only thing that's a given is that internet\Nwill become faster. All of the other
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.53,0:21:08.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,promises you should take with a grain of\Nsalt. There are two particular
Dialogue: 0,0:21:08.84,0:21:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technology aspects of 5G that I want to\Ntalk about in more detail. The first is
Dialogue: 0,0:21:14.88,0:21:21.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Network Slicing. The title already gives\Nit away. Network slicing means you slice
Dialogue: 0,0:21:21.62,0:21:29.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the network and every slice, every layer\Nhas different quality characteristics. So
Dialogue: 0,0:21:29.15,0:21:32.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's basically QoS on the radio access\Nlayer. So it's basically allowing you to
Dialogue: 0,0:21:32.42,0:21:39.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have one SIM card with several internet\Naccesses to it. So you could have one that
Dialogue: 0,0:21:39.10,0:21:44.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is very high bandwidth super fast for\NNetflix, one for very low latency for
Dialogue: 0,0:21:44.00,0:21:48.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gaming, one for very low energy\Nconsumption. So when your battery goes
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.16,0:21:53.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,below 20% or you'll have solar powered IoT\Nsensors, then you might want to use that
Dialogue: 0,0:21:53.59,0:21:57.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you actually don't care about\Nbandwidth, you don't care that much about
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.17,0:22:02.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reliability, but you only have tiny\Nbattery or solar power. And it actually is
Dialogue: 0,0:22:02.61,0:22:09.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,good that we'll have that technology. But\Nthe question is then who gets which slice?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:09.12,0:22:14.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's where the regulators in the\Nbusiness models get back into gear. The
Dialogue: 0,0:22:14.24,0:22:18.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one scenario in which we could see\Nnetworks slices being marketed to us is an
Dialogue: 0,0:22:18.86,0:22:23.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a per subscriber basis. So you have that\None SIM card and it allows you to have
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.03,0:22:27.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,several independent Internet access\Nservices that are also separated from each
Dialogue: 0,0:22:27.92,0:22:34.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other. And you as a user are in control.\NWhich app gets which slice? You should not
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.56,0:22:37.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,assume that all of these slices will be\Nflat rate. It could be that you have a
Dialogue: 0,0:22:37.77,0:22:42.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,normal internet access but a very high\Nbandwidth or low latency slice is capped
Dialogue: 0,0:22:42.51,0:22:46.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with two gigabytes per month. And so it\Nactually is important that we as
Dialogue: 0,0:22:46.54,0:22:52.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,subscribers have a say in that. The second\Nway in which network slices could hit us,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:52.78,0:22:58.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a specialized services. So, there the\Naccess service, the pipe, is the same
Dialogue: 0,0:22:58.11,0:23:04.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing as the application that runs over\Nit. So it's no longer universal access. It
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.12,0:23:07.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is no longer something that connects you\Nto the whole internet but it's basically
Dialogue: 0,0:23:07.44,0:23:13.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just not a power plug but a Facebook plug.\NAnd we have few safeguards, five in total
Dialogue: 0,0:23:13.59,0:23:19.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the regulation that are kind of protecting\Nus against specialized services becoming
Dialogue: 0,0:23:19.35,0:23:25.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,too widespread. But this is where we'll\Nsee a lot of "innovation" from the telecom
Dialogue: 0,0:23:25.47,0:23:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,industry to vertically integrate, try to\Nhave Facebook as a separately sold product
Dialogue: 0,0:23:30.32,0:23:37.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or maybe Facebook, Oculus Rift, VR or\Nmaybe some IoT vertical integration, which
Dialogue: 0,0:23:37.27,0:23:41.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some smart home shit. So stuff like that\Nwill most likely happen and 5G gives them
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.65,0:23:47.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more argumentation basis for these types\Nof vertically integrated products. But
Dialogue: 0,0:23:47.54,0:23:52.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's something for the enforcement. And\Nlastly, which was our original fear, is
Dialogue: 0,0:23:52.99,0:23:57.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a network license would be applied on\Na per application basis. So, Google could
Dialogue: 0,0:23:57.99,0:24:03.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make a deal and suddenly they are under\Nhigh reliability slice - always. And this
Dialogue: 0,0:24:03.94,0:24:09.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is thankfully not the case in the current\Ndraft, so we could already prevent with
Dialogue: 0,0:24:09.26,0:24:14.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the work in the previous years this\Nscenario from being a likely result of
Dialogue: 0,0:24:14.09,0:24:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that reform, which is good because as I\Nshow you later, these rules in Europe will
Dialogue: 0,0:24:20.53,0:24:25.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have repercussions. The second technology\Naspect of 5G that merits some discussion
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.85,0:24:31.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is edge computing and it's kind of\Nbreaking the principle of end-to-end. You
Dialogue: 0,0:24:31.61,0:24:35.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no longer have desktops or mobile devices\Nthat are connected to one Internet,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:35.98,0:24:40.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whereas you have suddenly some\Ncomputational power on the cell tower, on
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.67,0:24:45.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a very close datacenter connected with\Nfiber lines so that the whole purpose here
Dialogue: 0,0:24:45.36,0:24:52.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is very low latency. The industry is\Nmarketing this as something really great,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:52.58,0:24:57.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something that will be heavily needed.\NActually, there is very little real use
Dialogue: 0,0:24:57.19,0:25:02.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cases out there that I think are\Nrealistic. The only one that we could find
Dialogue: 0,0:25:02.57,0:25:06.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that merits discussion is local\Ndynamic maps. So it's basically if you
Dialogue: 0,0:25:06.77,0:25:12.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think of a future in which self-driving\Ncars all have their own sensory data and
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.85,0:25:17.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that sensory data is then cached in this\Nedge-called cloud. So you have a 3-D
Dialogue: 0,0:25:17.40,0:25:23.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,model that knows from the car that has gone\Naround the same curve for a minute ago that
Dialogue: 0,0:25:23.50,0:25:27.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is a traffic jam over there. And so\Nyour car would know before you even passed
Dialogue: 0,0:25:27.32,0:25:33.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that curve. It is telling that even the\NEuropean Commission backed a Wi-Fi based
Dialogue: 0,0:25:33.67,0:25:39.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mesh network standard and not 5G, which\Nmeans even that very weak example of edge
Dialogue: 0,0:25:39.41,0:25:44.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,computing is kind of discredited in\NEurope. So we have good cases for the
Dialogue: 0,0:25:44.77,0:25:49.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,global reform. And when we talk about 5G,\Nit's important to stress that this is a
Dialogue: 0,0:25:49.30,0:25:55.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,global standard. 3GPP, an international\Nbody is standardizing the technology for
Dialogue: 0,0:25:55.12,0:26:01.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,5G and now it's being rolled out step by\Nstep in the rest of the world. The U.S.,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:01.08,0:26:04.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course, will not be helpful with that\Nbecause they are heavily investing in 5G
Dialogue: 0,0:26:04.39,0:26:08.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they are no longer net neutrality\Nstandards to test this new technology
Dialogue: 0,0:26:08.49,0:26:14.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against. Canada, great net neutrality law,\Nbut not taking a front seat approach to
Dialogue: 0,0:26:14.11,0:26:19.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,5G. So they are not actively engaging with\Nit. India great net neutrality, again not
Dialogue: 0,0:26:19.54,0:26:24.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interested in 5G yet. South Korea,\Nactually, our colleagues there could
Dialogue: 0,0:26:24.66,0:26:31.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prevent a repeal of the net neutrality\Nlegislation in South Korea. But they tried
Dialogue: 0,0:26:31.42,0:26:38.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to regulatory sandbox net neutrality from\N5G to just let the net neutrality rules
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.01,0:26:42.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are already weak in South Korea to\Nbegin with not apply to that technology.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:42.36,0:26:46.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So Europe is kind of the first world\Nregion that tries to square these two
Dialogue: 0,0:26:46.33,0:26:52.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things together. And that's why our\Napproach here might be quite influential.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:52.41,0:26:57.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also, if you think of the whole ecosystem\Nbecause what does it mean if we have user
Dialogue: 0,0:26:57.56,0:27:01.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,controlled network slices? That means that\Non my mobile device, I need to somehow
Dialogue: 0,0:27:01.55,0:27:06.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also decide which application gets which\Nslice at which time. And so Google and
Dialogue: 0,0:27:06.49,0:27:13.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Android - ähm Google and Apple (Freud)\Ncome into play here as well. Another issue
Dialogue: 0,0:27:13.99,0:27:20.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we did not at all expect to fight\Nabout is parental control filters. So when
Dialogue: 0,0:27:20.03,0:27:23.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we fought about this law in the\Nparliament and in the council in the
Dialogue: 0,0:27:23.18,0:27:28.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trial, we always had that looming danger\Nof parental controls, like in the UK. You
Dialogue: 0,0:27:28.40,0:27:32.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,buy an internet subscription and you have\Na porn filter on it by default. We could
Dialogue: 0,0:27:32.75,0:27:36.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kill this in trial. So parental\Ncontrols were struck out of the law books
Dialogue: 0,0:27:36.57,0:27:41.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and for some weird reason I would call it\Nlobby pressure. The regulators wanted to
Dialogue: 0,0:27:41.71,0:27:47.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allow this in this reform and we've shot\Nheavily against it. We got even support
Dialogue: 0,0:27:47.06,0:27:51.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the consumer protection\Norganizations, from BEUC, and we hope
Dialogue: 0,0:27:51.22,0:27:56.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we can actually prevent this because\Nwhat would it mean? It would mean that
Dialogue: 0,0:27:56.03,0:28:01.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suddenly in the terms of services, you can\Ncircumvent net neutrality. Usually an ISP
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.33,0:28:05.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is, of course, not allowed to just\Nrandomly block websites but parental
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.32,0:28:09.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,controls are exactly that. If you want to\Ndo parental control filtering do it on the
Dialogue: 0,0:28:09.72,0:28:16.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,device but not in the network. Blocking\Nshould always happen on the edge of the
Dialogue: 0,0:28:16.34,0:28:20.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,application, not on the network site. The\Npicture is more interesting when we talk
Dialogue: 0,0:28:20.92,0:28:26.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about zero rating cause they actually took\Nmany of our ideas and also from our report
Dialogue: 0,0:28:26.40,0:28:32.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into consideration. The draft that was\Nreleased in October actually contains even
Dialogue: 0,0:28:32.18,0:28:36.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the same language of open zero rating\Nprograms. And it says they have to be
Dialogue: 0,0:28:36.43,0:28:41.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fair, everyone needs to get a response,\Nthey have to be reasonable, so all
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.87,0:28:45.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,documentation should be made public, they\Nhave to be transparent, so if WhatsApp
Dialogue: 0,0:28:45.82,0:28:50.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,calls or Spotify ads are actually counting\Ntowards you data cap and are not zero-
Dialogue: 0,0:28:50.06,0:28:55.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rated, you should least tell the customer\Nand they have to be non-discriminatory. So
Dialogue: 0,0:28:55.89,0:28:59.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Vimeo gets the same response time as\NYouTube. These are all our critical
Dialogue: 0,0:28:59.92,0:29:04.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,points. I'm very thankful that they have\Nlistened to us but sadly, they are also
Dialogue: 0,0:29:04.20,0:29:09.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allowing ISP to simply don't give a fuck\Nand have non-open programs, so they have
Dialogue: 0,0:29:09.25,0:29:14.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not drawn a red line. They have not said\Nclearly we have these types of zero-rating
Dialogue: 0,0:29:14.31,0:29:18.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,programs, which are okay and then we have\Nall of these others that you have to
Dialogue: 0,0:29:18.16,0:29:27.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,follow these rules for. And that is just a\Nlevel of lack of opportunity and a missed
Dialogue: 0,0:29:27.20,0:29:32.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opportunity for the regulators because\Nwhenever the rules are fuzzy and
Dialogue: 0,0:29:32.10,0:29:37.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unclear,that only creates problems further\Ndown the road in enforcement. The last
Dialogue: 0,0:29:37.68,0:29:41.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issue was also kind of unexpected. In the\Nbeginning, because I thought we've solved
Dialogue: 0,0:29:41.45,0:29:46.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that. Deep packet inspection. So deep\Npacket inspection means when an ISP is
Dialogue: 0,0:29:46.97,0:29:51.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking into your data packages. So he's\Nlooking closely into what you are actually
Dialogue: 0,0:29:51.31,0:29:57.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing online, your concrete user behavior.\NThe domains you access, the URLs you
Dialogue: 0,0:29:57.43,0:30:01.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,access, that means your sexual\Npreferences, your news preferences, which
Dialogue: 0,0:30:01.40,0:30:06.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,videos you have watched, all of that.\NUsually that should be prohibited.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:06.17,0:30:10.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Everything that's payload of transport\Nlayer 4 should be off limit for an ISP.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:10.11,0:30:14.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's the general definition of deep\Npacket inspection. And actually we thought
Dialogue: 0,0:30:14.17,0:30:19.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we've won that. But then there were\Nrumors that deep packet inspection, they
Dialogue: 0,0:30:19.21,0:30:24.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to open it up and allow it again. So\Nwe launched an open letter which was
Dialogue: 0,0:30:24.38,0:30:29.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,signed by 45 NGOs, academics, and privacy\Nexperts. But we still felt like this is a
Dialogue: 0,0:30:29.64,0:30:35.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hard push. We knew the regulators on the\Nother side - Germany is one of them - that
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.31,0:30:40.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were just because of lobby pressure,\Nreally asking for ex post allowing deep
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.83,0:30:50.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,packet inspection. And in that moment,\NGandalf came and we really got support
Dialogue: 0,0:30:50.98,0:30:56.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from an unexpected friend. The highest\Ndata protection body in the European
Dialogue: 0,0:30:56.24,0:31:03.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Union, EDPB, issued a letter to BEREC and\Nsaying that the board considers the
Dialogue: 0,0:31:03.16,0:31:07.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,processing of data such as domain names\Nand URLs by Internet access service
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.34,0:31:12.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,providers for traffic management and\Nbilling purposes, it's unlawful unless
Dialogue: 0,0:31:12.66,0:31:18.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consent of all users is obtained. And that\Nis interesting because of course all users
Dialogue: 0,0:31:18.47,0:31:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,means that it will never work because\NI as a customer of my telco, can maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:31:24.28,0:31:30.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consent to that, but not the rest of the\Ninternet that might send a data package
Dialogue: 0,0:31:30.01,0:31:34.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,down my way. They're not just saying this\Nfor their net neutrality law, they are
Dialogue: 0,0:31:34.38,0:31:39.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also saying it for their interpretation of\Ne-privacy, of the GDPR, all of the other
Dialogue: 0,0:31:39.85,0:31:43.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,laws. So this is actually giving us even\Nmore sticks to go after deep packet
Dialogue: 0,0:31:43.63,0:31:48.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inspection in the future of that legal\Nopinion. And lastly, a completely
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.01,0:31:53.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unrelated reform but still plays into this\Nwhole thing. In Germany, you can pick your
Dialogue: 0,0:31:53.66,0:31:58.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,own router. It doesn't matter which ISP\Nyou have. You have the right to buy a
Dialogue: 0,0:31:58.79,0:32:03.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,router from anywhere, even an open source\Nor libre one. And it needs to be able to
Dialogue: 0,0:32:03.37,0:32:06.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,connect to your internet access service.\NThat is not the case in many European
Dialogue: 0,0:32:06.93,0:32:11.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,countries because it is often unclear\Nwhere does the network actually end and
Dialogue: 0,0:32:11.13,0:32:15.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where does my home network begin. And that\Nnetwork termination point is one of the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:15.29,0:32:21.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things that the same body BEREC, the\Ntelecom regulators will decide for us. And
Dialogue: 0,0:32:21.81,0:32:26.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again, it looks like we will win. Winning\Nin this sense means that you will have it
Dialogue: 0,0:32:26.03,0:32:30.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the freedom to choose your own router, you\Nwill have device freedom also in the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:30.68,0:32:35.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,customer premise equipment and the network\Nends at the socket, at the wall, at the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:35.69,0:32:39.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,antenna. So it's actually quite good for\Nuser choice. The only counterpoint that I have to
Dialogue: 0,0:32:39.78,0:32:44.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give you, of course, when the network\Nends, net neutrality ends. But if your ISP
Dialogue: 0,0:32:44.04,0:32:49.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tries to fuck you on your router, you can\Njust replace it with another device. And
Dialogue: 0,0:32:49.29,0:32:53.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's it for the neutrality thing.\NAnd I think we still have some time for Q
Dialogue: 0,0:32:53.15,0:33:01.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and A. Thanks.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.06,0:33:07.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:33:07.67,0:33:18.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Yeah. Thank you so much. And don't\Nleave yet. I wanted to say support
Dialogue: 0,0:33:18.16,0:33:22.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,epicenter.work, support EDRi. We need support,\Nwe need people who believe in this and to
Dialogue: 0,0:33:22.46,0:33:29.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fight for this and thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:29.87,0:33:33.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:33:33.96,0:33:41.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Okay. So, do we have questions? We\Nhave questions from the Internet, maybe -
Dialogue: 0,0:33:41.31,0:33:48.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not really. Number two, please.\NMic 2: Yes. Have you seen any requirements
Dialogue: 0,0:33:48.47,0:33:53.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in digital media playback for recording\Nlocation information and identifying
Dialogue: 0,0:33:53.45,0:33:57.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,users? So especially the location\Ninformation of media playback.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:57.36,0:34:04.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lohninger: I'm not sure I follow the\Nquestion. So like... you mean like YouTube
Dialogue: 0,0:34:04.10,0:34:06.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reporting the playback position of the\Naudience?
Dialogue: 0,0:34:06.19,0:34:09.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mix 2: No, not the not the public playback\Nposition, the position or the location of
Dialogue: 0,0:34:09.78,0:34:14.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the user that is playing back to media.\NLohninger: I'm not sure that that would
Dialogue: 0,0:34:14.48,0:34:21.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relate to this. So, the ISP, of course,\Nknows in most cases where the user is, you
Dialogue: 0,0:34:21.43,0:34:30.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, in all cases actually, and the\Ncontent provider, if it is not localizing
Dialogue: 0,0:34:30.30,0:34:35.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the user on the app with the location,\Nthen the ISP at least would not share that
Dialogue: 0,0:34:35.96,0:34:41.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,location information. I also wouldn't know\Nby which API or on which legal basis they
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.79,0:34:46.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could do that. I hope that answers the\Nquestion, but I'm not sure.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:46.33,0:34:52.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Okay, thank you. Okay, we have\Nanother question. Microphone four, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:52.08,0:34:58.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mic 4: Hi. Will the users have the same\Nrights if they are not in the home country
Dialogue: 0,0:34:58.57,0:35:01.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like if you are roaming?\NLohninger: Yeah, that's actually an
Dialogue: 0,0:35:01.97,0:35:08.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interesting question. So, the net\Nneutrality regulation is also the roaming
Dialogue: 0,0:35:08.20,0:35:12.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regulation in the EU. These two things a\Nlegally mixed together but they actually
Dialogue: 0,0:35:12.63,0:35:19.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can be seen completely separate. So when\Nyou are roaming in another country, so my
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.49,0:35:25.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Austrian SIM card here in Germany, it is\Nactually then the German provider that is
Dialogue: 0,0:35:25.28,0:35:30.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,physically providing me the Internet\Naccess service, which has to apply by the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:30.87,0:35:38.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,same European regulation for net\Nneutrality. In most cases that would not
Dialogue: 0,0:35:38.23,0:35:45.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mean that there is even a technical or\Nlegal connection to the customer, to the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:45.39,0:35:50.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ISP in Austria that I have a contract\Nwith. Of course, it gets then interesting
Dialogue: 0,0:35:50.92,0:35:59.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because that's mostly about the technical\Naspect when we look about zero rating. For
Dialogue: 0,0:35:59.35,0:36:03.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most cases the zero rating would just not\Nbe possible. So if you have StreamOn in
Dialogue: 0,0:36:03.36,0:36:07.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Germany, you are a customer of T-Mobile,\Nyou are going to Austria and you are in
Dialogue: 0,0:36:07.46,0:36:13.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the network of some ISP, then the zero-\Nrating would just not be possible and you
Dialogue: 0,0:36:13.89,0:36:18.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would just have additional data volume\Ngiven to you. There was actually a court
Dialogue: 0,0:36:18.69,0:36:25.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,case about that out of Germany and there's\Nstill ongoing litigation from the consumer
Dialogue: 0,0:36:25.06,0:36:31.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protection NGO, VZBV in Germany against\NVodafone around that same question. It
Dialogue: 0,0:36:31.45,0:36:37.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might be differently if you are a German\NT-Mobile customer in Austria and roaming
Dialogue: 0,0:36:37.12,0:36:41.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the T-Mobile network there because\Ntechnically I think it would be possible
Dialogue: 0,0:36:41.52,0:36:47.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to then apply the zero-rating but I'm not\Nsure if they actually do that. I think it
Dialogue: 0,0:36:47.01,0:36:50.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would not be easy and the incentive\Nusually would also not be there because
Dialogue: 0,0:36:50.31,0:36:55.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these are very few edge cases that even to\Nconfigure and maintain those wouldn't make
Dialogue: 0,0:36:55.89,0:37:01.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of sense.\NHerald: Okay, so next, we have a question
Dialogue: 0,0:37:01.90,0:37:09.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the Internet. Dear signal angel.\NSignal: So there was a question about DPI.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:09.02,0:37:15.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are data protection authorities doing\Nanything about this and are there any
Dialogue: 0,0:37:15.25,0:37:20.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforcements in the European country?\NLohninger: Sadly, no and no but I think
Dialogue: 0,0:37:20.94,0:37:28.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is definitely an opportunity there\Nfor enforcement action. And I know many of
Dialogue: 0,0:37:28.58,0:37:33.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people that work around strategic\Nlitigation and enforcement of the GDPR.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:33.73,0:37:38.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They have their hands full because similar\Nto net neutrality, the great law that
Dialogue: 0,0:37:38.44,0:37:44.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we've written in the last year is not\Ntaken very seriously by the regulators.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:44.15,0:37:49.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think it will again depend on\Nactivists or other entities bringing
Dialogue: 0,0:37:49.67,0:37:55.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cases, bringing complaints to data\Nprotection authorities around DPI before
Dialogue: 0,0:37:55.42,0:37:59.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we see actual movement there. Legally, I\Nthink particularly with that statement
Dialogue: 0,0:37:59.75,0:38:06.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the EDPB, it would be an easy win. So\Nif somebody wants to earn spores or help
Dialogue: 0,0:38:06.10,0:38:11.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of that, I think it's quite doable case to\Nbring a complaint against DPI based on
Dialogue: 0,0:38:11.10,0:38:16.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that legal opinion.\NHerald: So you're all part of it again.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:16.03,0:38:22.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Number two, please.\NMic 2: I want to ask, why the hell should
Dialogue: 0,0:38:22.36,0:38:29.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the ISP mess around on layer 4 {\i1}laugh{\i0} ,\Nas you described it before?
Dialogue: 0,0:38:29.51,0:38:34.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lohinger: That is the current definition\Nthat we have, like the regulation says no
Dialogue: 0,0:38:34.12,0:38:42.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,monitoring of specific content. And BEREC\Ninterpreted that in 2016 it meaning pay a
Dialogue: 0,0:38:42.48,0:38:48.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,load of transport layer 4 should be off\Nlimit. That is the interpretation that the
Dialogue: 0,0:38:48.69,0:38:51.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regulators have come up with. And that, of\Ncourse, was also a political compromise
Dialogue: 0,0:38:51.95,0:38:58.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like where do you draw the line? And so my\Nslide there was really based on the 2016
Dialogue: 0,0:38:58.75,0:39:04.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,text of the guidelines.\NHerald: Okay. Number one, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:04.30,0:39:09.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mic 1: So currently an app developer has\Nto apply for to an ISP to get zero-rated.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:09.66,0:39:14.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's to stop an ISP to just zero-rate an\Napp on its own to gain some market
Dialogue: 0,0:39:14.12,0:39:17.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,advantage.\NLohninger: They can. And there's nothing
Dialogue: 0,0:39:17.12,0:39:22.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stopping it. And WhatsApp, for example, is\Neasily just saying "Okay, here's how you
Dialogue: 0,0:39:22.39,0:39:29.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,zero-rate us and we don't even want to\Ninteract with you." There does not need to
Dialogue: 0,0:39:29.61,0:39:34.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be a bilateral agreement. Of course, ISP\Nthen has the problem if the app provider
Dialogue: 0,0:39:34.27,0:39:39.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,changes their service or infrastructure\Nand identification criteria should also
Dialogue: 0,0:39:39.30,0:39:45.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,change that the ISP needs to implement\Nthat change before it happens. And so
Dialogue: 0,0:39:45.35,0:39:48.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's the reason for the 30 day period.\NBut again, that problem might not even
Dialogue: 0,0:39:48.98,0:39:54.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exist for big providers that have\Ndedicated IP addresses. If your services
Dialogue: 0,0:39:54.91,0:39:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming out of an CDN and then you would\Nrely on SNI or other technologies to
Dialogue: 0,0:39:58.80,0:40:04.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually be identifiable.\NHerald: So we have one more minute and I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:40:04.81,0:40:10.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sorry to say it's number 4. Thank you,\Nothers. And yeah, probably you can go to
Dialogue: 0,0:40:10.51,0:40:14.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Epicenter Networks and contact Thomas\Nthere. Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:14.20,0:40:18.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mic 4: Hi. I'm very touched by your\Nargument about regulation not being
Dialogue: 0,0:40:18.81,0:40:24.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforced right now in the EU. In France,\Nit has been the case about video
Dialogue: 0,0:40:24.05,0:40:31.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance where the state has stated\Nthat CLIN, the regulators are a
Dialogue: 0,0:40:31.31,0:40:35.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consultative authority. You know, they\Nshouldn't enforce. That's what quite
Dialogue: 0,0:40:35.80,0:40:41.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,arterial the association that is doing\Nmost of the work about that said so. I
Dialogue: 0,0:40:41.25,0:40:44.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't know where we go from there. You\Nknow, I'm very scared. It's nice that
Dialogue: 0,0:40:44.43,0:40:47.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're doing...\NHerald: What is the question, please? We
Dialogue: 0,0:40:47.43,0:40:49.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just have 20 more seconds.\NMic 4: Sorry, my question is, what do you
Dialogue: 0,0:40:49.55,0:40:53.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think we can do to help enforce regulation\Nin the EU?
Dialogue: 0,0:40:53.95,0:40:59.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lohninger: Big question. There are many\Nthings there, like one of the things that
Dialogue: 0,0:40:59.28,0:41:04.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a positive development to look at a\Nbright side is that more and more digital
Dialogue: 0,0:41:04.95,0:41:09.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rights NGOs are warming up to strategic\Nlitigation. So ultimately, why are
Dialogue: 0,0:41:09.55,0:41:15.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regulators not acting? Because on the one\Nside, they have fundamental rights to law,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:15.72,0:41:19.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consumer protection. And on the other\Nside, you have a big, big company that
Dialogue: 0,0:41:19.42,0:41:24.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will not accept their decision that it\Nwill bring them to court no matter what.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:24.24,0:41:28.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so if you're a small regulator with a\Nlimited budget, you can either take the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:28.27,0:41:33.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,uncomfortable decision that, you know, you\Nwill be sued for. Or just duck away and
Dialogue: 0,0:41:33.74,0:41:37.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then the thing might be over. So that the\Nrisk assessment and the cost calculation
Dialogue: 0,0:41:37.88,0:41:42.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is currently not in our favor. And that's\Nwhy we need to bring more cases. We have
Dialogue: 0,0:41:42.75,0:41:48.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to make regulators really bear a certain\Nrisk on both sides of the decision. And
Dialogue: 0,0:41:48.58,0:41:52.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only then will the decision actually move\Nmore to the factual basis. And I mean, I
Dialogue: 0,0:41:52.77,0:41:57.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know there are many problems in France but\Nat least CLIN was one of the few DPAs that
Dialogue: 0,0:41:57.67,0:42:02.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually issued a few million penalties.\NSo there is at least some silver lining.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:02.71,0:42:09.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Okay, so complain. Support EDRi, \Nsupport epicenter.works. Thank you
Dialogue: 0,0:42:09.70,0:42:12.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for being here and given another applause\Nto Thomas Lohninger. Thank you so much.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:12.46,0:42:13.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:42:13.46,0:42:14.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}36c3 postroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:42:14.46,0:42:15.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2020. Join, and help us!