0:00:01.082,0:00:05.165
I come to you today to speak of liars,

0:00:05.189,0:00:06.612
lawsuits

0:00:06.636,0:00:07.976
and laughter.

0:00:08.910,0:00:12.020
The first time I heard[br]about Holocaust denial,

0:00:12.044,0:00:13.346
I laughed.

0:00:13.970,0:00:15.722
Holocaust denial?

0:00:16.187,0:00:19.617
The Holocaust which has[br]the dubious distinction

0:00:19.641,0:00:24.136
of being the best-documented[br]genocide in the world?

0:00:25.046,0:00:27.072
Who could believe it didn't happen?

0:00:28.106,0:00:29.453
Think about it.

0:00:30.257,0:00:32.538
For deniers to be right,

0:00:32.562,0:00:34.458
who would have to be wrong?

0:00:35.011,0:00:37.777
Well, first of all, the victims --

0:00:37.801,0:00:42.518
the survivors who have told us[br]their harrowing stories.

0:00:43.721,0:00:46.035
Who else would have to be wrong?

0:00:46.059,0:00:48.012
The bystanders.

0:00:48.036,0:00:52.014
The people who lived in the myriads[br]of towns and villages and cities

0:00:52.038,0:00:54.010
on the Eastern front,

0:00:54.034,0:00:56.476
who watched their neighbors[br]be rounded up --

0:00:56.500,0:00:59.713
men, women, children, young, old --

0:00:59.737,0:01:02.457
and be marched[br]to the outskirts of the town

0:01:02.481,0:01:05.473
to be shot and left dead in ditches.

0:01:05.985,0:01:07.315
Or the Poles,

0:01:07.339,0:01:12.020
who lived in towns and villages[br]around the death camps,

0:01:12.044,0:01:14.420
who watched day after day

0:01:14.444,0:01:17.186
as the trains went in filled with people

0:01:17.210,0:01:18.733
and came out empty.

0:01:19.787,0:01:23.420
But above all, who would have to be wrong?

0:01:24.005,0:01:25.469
The perpetrators.

0:01:26.112,0:01:29.018
The people who say, "We did it.

0:01:29.479,0:01:31.003
I did it."

0:01:31.027,0:01:33.176
Now, maybe they add a caveat.

0:01:33.200,0:01:37.624
They say, "I didn't have a choice;[br]I was forced to do it."

0:01:38.104,0:01:40.773
But nonetheless, they say, "I did it."

0:01:41.938,0:01:43.489
Think about it.

0:01:43.513,0:01:49.452
In not one war crimes trial[br]since the end of World War II

0:01:49.476,0:01:56.112
has a perpetrator of any nationality[br]ever said, "It didn't happen."

0:01:57.078,0:02:01.660
Again, they may have said, "I was forced,"[br]but never that it didn't happen.

0:02:01.684,0:02:03.158
Having thought that through,

0:02:03.182,0:02:07.133
I decided denial was not[br]going to be on my agenda;

0:02:07.157,0:02:10.865
I had bigger things to worry about,[br]to write about, to research,

0:02:10.889,0:02:12.203
and I moved on.

0:02:12.911,0:02:15.730
Fast-forward a little over a decade,

0:02:15.754,0:02:17.566
and two senior scholars --

0:02:17.590,0:02:20.748
two of the most prominent historians[br]of the Holocaust --

0:02:20.772,0:02:22.029
approached me and said,

0:02:22.053,0:02:23.842
"Deborah, let's have coffee.

0:02:23.866,0:02:27.463
We have a research idea[br]that we think is perfect for you."

0:02:27.487,0:02:31.320
Intrigued and flattered[br]that they came to me with an idea

0:02:31.344,0:02:32.921
and thought me worthy of it,

0:02:32.945,0:02:35.041
I asked, "What is it?"

0:02:35.665,0:02:38.654
And they said, "Holocaust denial."

0:02:39.353,0:02:41.848
And for the second time, I laughed.

0:02:42.336,0:02:44.260
Holocaust denial?

0:02:44.284,0:02:46.270
The Flat Earth folks?

0:02:46.294,0:02:48.431
The Elvis-is-alive people?

0:02:48.455,0:02:50.643
I should study them?

0:02:51.326,0:02:52.643
And these two guys said,

0:02:52.667,0:02:54.600
"Yeah, we're intrigued.

0:02:55.012,0:02:56.584
What are they about?

0:02:56.608,0:02:58.358
What's their objective?

0:02:58.382,0:03:02.036
How do they manage to get people[br]to believe what they say?"

0:03:02.756,0:03:06.284
So thinking, if they thought[br]it was worthwhile,

0:03:06.308,0:03:09.682
I would take a momentary diversion --

0:03:09.706,0:03:12.644
maybe a year, maybe two,[br]three, maybe even four --

0:03:12.668,0:03:14.913
in academic terms, that's momentary.

0:03:14.937,0:03:16.079
(Laughter)

0:03:16.103,0:03:18.490
We work very slowly.

0:03:18.514,0:03:20.086
(Laughter)

0:03:20.110,0:03:21.912
And I would look at them.

0:03:21.936,0:03:23.091
So I did.

0:03:23.115,0:03:25.954
I did my research, and I came up[br]with a number of things,

0:03:25.978,0:03:28.571
two of which I'd like to share[br]with you today.

0:03:28.595,0:03:29.928
One:

0:03:29.952,0:03:34.909
deniers are wolves in sheep's clothing.

0:03:35.712,0:03:38.677
They are the same: Nazis, neo-Nazis --

0:03:38.701,0:03:41.928
you can decide whether you want[br]to put a "neo" there or not.

0:03:42.786,0:03:45.119
But when I looked at them,

0:03:45.143,0:03:49.869
I didn't see any SS-like uniforms,

0:03:49.893,0:03:53.044
swastika-like symbols on the wall,

0:03:53.068,0:03:55.125
Sieg Heil salutes --

0:03:55.149,0:03:56.693
none of that.

0:03:56.717,0:03:59.587
What I found instead

0:03:59.611,0:04:04.226
were people parading[br]as respectable academics.

0:04:04.916,0:04:06.137
What did they have?

0:04:06.161,0:04:07.859
They had an institute.

0:04:07.883,0:04:11.727
An "Institute for Historical Review."

0:04:12.392,0:04:14.946
They had a journal -- a slick journal --

0:04:14.970,0:04:17.924
a "Journal of Historical Review."

0:04:18.398,0:04:21.104
One filled with papers --

0:04:21.128,0:04:23.172
footnote-laden papers.

0:04:23.923,0:04:25.863
And they had a new name.

0:04:26.500,0:04:28.668
Not neo-Nazis,

0:04:28.692,0:04:31.182
not anti-Semites --

0:04:31.206,0:04:32.464
revisionists.

0:04:32.991,0:04:35.206
They said, "We are revisionists.

0:04:35.230,0:04:37.913
We are out to do one thing:

0:04:37.937,0:04:41.497
to revise mistakes in history."

0:04:42.369,0:04:47.779
But all you had to do was go[br]one inch below the surface,

0:04:47.803,0:04:49.710
and what did you find there?

0:04:49.734,0:04:52.224
The same adulation of Hitler,

0:04:52.248,0:04:54.123
praise of the Third Reich,

0:04:54.147,0:04:57.089
anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice.

0:04:57.904,0:05:00.350
This is what intrigued me.

0:05:00.374,0:05:07.371
It was anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice,[br]parading as rational discourse.

0:05:08.730,0:05:10.317
The other thing I found --

0:05:10.341,0:05:14.086
many of us have been taught to think[br]there are facts and there are opinions --

0:05:14.110,0:05:15.566
after studying deniers,

0:05:15.590,0:05:16.926
I think differently.

0:05:17.438,0:05:19.086
There are facts,

0:05:19.110,0:05:20.824
there are opinions,

0:05:20.848,0:05:22.460
and there are lies.

0:05:23.149,0:05:27.575
And what deniers want to do[br]is take their lies,

0:05:28.565,0:05:30.197
dress them up as opinions --

0:05:30.221,0:05:32.211
maybe edgy opinions,

0:05:32.235,0:05:34.944
maybe sort of out-of-the-box opinions --

0:05:34.968,0:05:36.352
but then if they're opinions,

0:05:36.376,0:05:38.508
they should be part of the conversation.

0:05:38.532,0:05:41.925
And then they encroach on the facts.

0:05:43.305,0:05:44.868
I published my work --

0:05:44.892,0:05:46.066
the book was published,

0:05:46.090,0:05:49.492
"Denying the Holocaust: The Growing[br]Assault on Truth and Memory,"

0:05:49.516,0:05:51.472
it came out in many different countries,

0:05:51.496,0:05:53.656
including here in Penguin UK,

0:05:53.680,0:05:57.110
and I was done with those folks[br]and ready to move on.

0:05:58.163,0:06:01.871
Then came the letter from Penguin UK.

0:06:02.434,0:06:05.202
And for the third time, I laughed ...

0:06:07.088,0:06:08.328
mistakenly.

0:06:08.972,0:06:10.702
I opened the letter,

0:06:10.726,0:06:16.614
and it informed me that David Irving[br]was bringing a libel suit against me

0:06:16.638,0:06:18.235
in the United Kingdom

0:06:18.259,0:06:21.295
for calling him a Holocaust denier.

0:06:21.953,0:06:23.887
David Irving suing me?

0:06:23.911,0:06:25.115
Who was David Irving?

0:06:25.139,0:06:27.746
David Irving was a writer[br]of historical works,

0:06:27.770,0:06:29.793
most of them about World War II,

0:06:29.817,0:06:33.036
and virtually all of those works[br]took the position

0:06:33.060,0:06:36.638
that the Nazis were really not so bad,

0:06:36.662,0:06:39.746
and the Allies were really not so good.

0:06:39.770,0:06:41.875
And the Jews, whatever happened to them,

0:06:41.899,0:06:43.209
they sort of deserved it.

0:06:44.206,0:06:45.697
He knew the documents,

0:06:45.721,0:06:47.164
he knew the facts,

0:06:47.188,0:06:50.360
but he somehow twisted them[br]to get this opinion.

0:06:51.016,0:06:53.528
He hadn't always been a Holocaust denier,

0:06:53.552,0:06:55.293
but in the late '80s,

0:06:55.317,0:06:57.744
he embraced it with great vigor.

0:06:59.517,0:07:03.422
The reason I laughed also[br]was this was a man

0:07:03.446,0:07:05.380
who not only was a Holocaust denier,

0:07:05.404,0:07:07.099
but seemed quite proud of it.

0:07:07.123,0:07:08.747
Here was a man -- and I quote --

0:07:08.771,0:07:12.465
who said, "I'm going to sink[br]the battleship Auschwitz."

0:07:13.345,0:07:14.517
Here was a man

0:07:14.541,0:07:18.561
who pointed to the number tattooed[br]on a survivor's arm and said,

0:07:19.716,0:07:21.308
"How much money have you made

0:07:21.332,0:07:24.732
from having that number[br]tattooed on your arm?"

0:07:25.549,0:07:27.457
Here was a man who said,

0:07:27.481,0:07:30.437
"More people died in Senator Kennedy's car

0:07:30.461,0:07:31.773
at Chappaquiddick

0:07:31.797,0:07:35.111
than died in gas chambers at Auschwitz."

0:07:35.135,0:07:37.972
That's an American reference,[br]but you can look it up.

0:07:39.406,0:07:42.420
This was not a man who seemed[br]at all ashamed or reticent

0:07:42.444,0:07:44.513
about being a Holocaust denier.

0:07:45.136,0:07:48.916
Now, lots of my academic[br]colleagues counseled me --

0:07:48.940,0:07:50.846
"Eh, Deborah, just ignore it."

0:07:50.870,0:07:54.458
When I explained you can't just[br]ignore a libel suit,

0:07:54.482,0:07:57.264
they said, "Who's going to[br]believe him anyway?"

0:07:57.783,0:07:59.863
But here was the problem:

0:07:59.887,0:08:05.195
British law put the onus,[br]put the burden of proof on me

0:08:05.219,0:08:07.901
to prove the truth of what I said,

0:08:07.925,0:08:10.688
in contrast to as it would have[br]been in the United States

0:08:10.712,0:08:12.216
and in many other countries:

0:08:12.240,0:08:15.246
on him to prove the falsehood.

0:08:15.921,0:08:17.382
What did that mean?

0:08:17.406,0:08:20.782
That meant if I didn't fight,

0:08:20.806,0:08:23.232
he would win by default.

0:08:23.791,0:08:25.546
And if he won by default,

0:08:25.570,0:08:28.211
he could then legitimately say,

0:08:28.235,0:08:33.571
"My David Irving version of the Holocaust[br]is a legitimate version.

0:08:33.595,0:08:35.779
Deborah Lipstadt was found[br]to have libeled me

0:08:35.803,0:08:37.750
when she called me a Holocaust denier.

0:08:37.774,0:08:42.202
Ipso facto, I, David Irving,[br]am not a Holocaust denier."

0:08:42.226,0:08:43.938
And what is that version?

0:08:44.431,0:08:47.427
There was no plan to murder the Jews,

0:08:47.451,0:08:49.503
there were no gas chambers,

0:08:49.527,0:08:51.383
there were no mass shootings,

0:08:51.407,0:08:54.578
Hitler had nothing to do[br]with any suffering that went on,

0:08:54.602,0:08:58.407
and the Jews have made this all up

0:08:58.431,0:09:00.829
to get money from Germany

0:09:00.853,0:09:02.560
and to get a state,

0:09:02.584,0:09:05.961
and they've done it with the aid[br]and abettance of the Allies --

0:09:05.985,0:09:09.450
they've planted the documents[br]and planted the evidence.

0:09:10.460,0:09:12.840
I couldn't let that stand

0:09:12.864,0:09:15.064
and ever face a survivor

0:09:15.823,0:09:17.798
or a child of survivors.

0:09:17.822,0:09:19.974
I couldn't let that stand

0:09:19.998,0:09:24.249
and consider myself[br]a responsible historian.

0:09:25.187,0:09:26.932
So we fought.

0:09:26.956,0:09:29.238
And for those of you[br]who haven't seen "Denial,"

0:09:29.262,0:09:30.421
spoiler alert:

0:09:30.445,0:09:31.663
we won.

0:09:31.687,0:09:32.982
(Laughter)

0:09:33.006,0:09:35.573
(Applause)

0:09:39.988,0:09:44.229
The judge found David Irving

0:09:44.253,0:09:47.584
to be a liar,

0:09:47.608,0:09:48.771
a racist,

0:09:48.795,0:09:50.049
an anti-Semite.

0:09:50.073,0:09:52.433
His view of history was tendentious,

0:09:52.457,0:09:54.383
he lied, he distorted --

0:09:54.407,0:09:57.050
and most importantly,

0:09:57.074,0:09:59.187
he did it deliberately.

0:09:59.211,0:10:03.350
We showed a pattern,[br]in over 25 different major instances.

0:10:03.374,0:10:06.484
Not small things -- many of us[br]in this audience write books,

0:10:06.508,0:10:07.693
are writing books;

0:10:07.717,0:10:11.183
we always make mistakes, that's why[br]we're glad to have second editions:

0:10:11.207,0:10:12.393
correct the mistakes.

0:10:12.417,0:10:13.567
(Laughter)

0:10:14.634,0:10:17.770
But these always moved[br]in the same direction:

0:10:18.618,0:10:20.829
blame the Jews,

0:10:20.853,0:10:23.028
exonerate the Nazis.

0:10:23.700,0:10:25.284
But how did we win?

0:10:26.196,0:10:31.576
What we did is follow his footnotes[br]back to his sources.

0:10:32.190,0:10:33.973
And what did we find?

0:10:33.997,0:10:35.476
Not in most cases,

0:10:35.500,0:10:37.468
and not in the preponderance of cases,

0:10:37.492,0:10:41.803
but in every single instance where[br]he made some reference to the Holocaust,

0:10:41.827,0:10:46.069
that his supposed evidence was distorted,

0:10:46.093,0:10:47.513
half-truth,

0:10:47.537,0:10:48.871
date-changed,

0:10:48.895,0:10:51.082
sequence-changed,

0:10:51.106,0:10:53.230
someone put at a meeting who wasn't there.

0:10:53.254,0:10:56.015
In other words,[br]he didn't have the evidence.

0:10:56.039,0:10:58.148
His evidence didn't prove it.

0:10:58.172,0:11:00.831
We didn't prove what happened.

0:11:01.628,0:11:04.127
We proved that what he said happened --

0:11:04.151,0:11:07.011
and by extension, all deniers,[br]because he either quotes them

0:11:07.035,0:11:09.506
or they get their arguments from him --

0:11:09.530,0:11:10.776
is not true.

0:11:10.800,0:11:11.989
What they claim --

0:11:12.013,0:11:14.635
they don't have the evidence to prove it.

0:11:16.609,0:11:21.353
So why is my story[br]more than just the story

0:11:21.377,0:11:25.184
of a quirky, long,[br]six-year, difficult lawsuit,

0:11:25.208,0:11:30.197
an American professor[br]being dragged into a courtroom

0:11:30.221,0:11:33.265
by a man that the court[br]declared in its judgment

0:11:33.289,0:11:35.539
was a neo-Nazi polemicist?

0:11:35.563,0:11:37.346
What message does it have?

0:11:37.800,0:11:40.773
I think in the context[br]of the question of truth,

0:11:40.797,0:11:43.259
it has a very significant message.

0:11:43.283,0:11:45.068
Because today,

0:11:45.092,0:11:46.758
as we well know,

0:11:46.782,0:11:50.898
truth and facts are under assault.

0:11:51.702,0:11:54.954
Social media, for all[br]the gifts it has given us,

0:11:54.978,0:12:00.559
has also allowed the difference[br]between facts -- established facts --

0:12:00.583,0:12:02.340
and lies

0:12:02.364,0:12:03.762
to be flattened.

0:12:04.990,0:12:06.500
Third of all:

0:12:06.524,0:12:07.995
extremism.

0:12:08.987,0:12:12.564
You may not see Ku Klux Klan robes,

0:12:12.588,0:12:14.659
you may not see burning crosses,

0:12:14.683,0:12:19.002
you may not even hear outright[br]white supremacist language.

0:12:19.026,0:12:23.932
It may go by names: "alt-right,"[br]"National Front" -- pick your names.

0:12:23.956,0:12:29.791
But underneath, it's that same extremism[br]that I found in Holocaust denial

0:12:29.815,0:12:33.209
parading as rational discourse.

0:12:35.134,0:12:40.351
We live in an age[br]where truth is on the defensive.

0:12:40.375,0:12:42.859
I'm reminded of a New Yorker cartoon.

0:12:42.883,0:12:45.403
A quiz show recently appeared[br]in "The New Yorker"

0:12:45.427,0:12:48.649
where the host of the quiz show[br]is saying to one of the contestants,

0:12:48.673,0:12:50.982
"Yes, ma'am, you had the right answer.

0:12:51.006,0:12:53.499
But your opponent yelled[br]more loudly than you did,

0:12:53.523,0:12:55.048
so he gets the point."

0:12:56.228,0:12:57.735
What can we do?

0:12:58.557,0:12:59.934
First of all,

0:12:59.958,0:13:05.389
we cannot be beguiled[br]by rational appearances.

0:13:05.413,0:13:07.182
We've got to look underneath,

0:13:07.206,0:13:10.007
and we will find there the extremism.

0:13:10.991,0:13:12.977
Second of all,

0:13:13.001,0:13:19.082
we must understand[br]that truth is not relative.

0:13:21.137,0:13:22.601
Number three,

0:13:22.625,0:13:26.314
we must go on the offensive,

0:13:26.338,0:13:28.111
not the defensive.

0:13:28.676,0:13:31.283
When someone makes an outrageous claim,

0:13:31.307,0:13:34.811
even though they may hold[br]one of the highest offices in the land,

0:13:34.835,0:13:36.846
if not the world --

0:13:36.870,0:13:38.380
we must say to them,

0:13:38.404,0:13:40.370
"Where's the proof?

0:13:40.394,0:13:42.531
Where's the evidence?"

0:13:42.555,0:13:45.482
We must hold their feet to the fire.

0:13:45.506,0:13:50.112
We must not treat it as if their lies[br]are the same as the facts.

0:13:51.395,0:13:54.935
And as I said earlier,[br]truth is not relative.

0:13:54.959,0:13:57.815
Many of us have grown up[br]in the world of the academy

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and enlightened liberal thought,

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where we're taught[br]everything is open to debate.

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But that's not the case.

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There are certain things that are true.

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There are indisputable facts --

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objective truths.

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Galileo taught it to us centuries ago.

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Even after being forced[br]to recant by the Vatican

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that the Earth moved around the Sun,

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he came out,

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and what is he reported to have said?

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"And yet, it still moves."

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The Earth is not flat.

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The climate is changing.

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Elvis is not alive.

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(Laughter)

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(Applause)

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And most importantly,

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truth and fact are under assault.

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The job ahead of us,

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the task ahead of us,

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the challenge ahead of us

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is great.

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The time to fight is short.

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We must act now.

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Later will be too late.

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Thank you very much.

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(Applause)