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35C3 preroll music
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Herald: I will now hand over the
microphone to our moderator, Geraldine De
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Bastion, who apart from the French name
does not speak French.
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Thank you very much.
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laughter
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Geraldine De Bastion: Thank you so much
for having me here and hopefully enough
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English to moderate the session. Hi
everybody. My name is Geraldine and I'm
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very proud to be moderating this session.
Maybe a few words to kick off with;
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usually sessions at CCC come together
because one person or team of people hand
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in a topic that they feel they would like
to talk about here on one of these stages.
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This session came together because several
people handed in sessions where they
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wanted to address how they're trying to
build communities or spaces that are
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specifically feminist, diverse, and
inclusive. And we thought it would be a
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great idea to give not just one person who
handed in a session, or two people, but
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all the people who handed in sessions on
this topic the stage. So this is how the
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session came together: by us grouping
together different submissions on the
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topic. And so I'm very happy that we have
five very interesting and excellent humans
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here to speak on the topic matter and will
be presenting their different approaches
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and their different strategies to building
feminist spaces and communities. And I'd
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like to welcome them here on stage. So
first off we have Hong Phuc who runs FOSS
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Asia, which is a community in
Asia/Southeast Asia for developing
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software and hardware specifically open
source. Welcome Hong!
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applause
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GdB: We have Azam and Sarah from Le RESET,
which is a feminist
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queer hackerspace.
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applause
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GdB: Welcome! We have Em O'Sullivan former
hackerspace and maker fair organizer, now
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researching how to improve women and non
binary people's engagement in maker a
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spaces. Welcome Em!
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applause
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GdB: And last but not least we have Lena
Mohr, who is a UX designer from Stuttgart,
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started an initiative called Ready to
Code, teaching young girls to code.
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Welcome Lena.
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applause
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GdB: And as I said, my name is Geraldine
de Bastion. I run a community called the
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Global Innovation Gathering, which is a
network of different maker spaces, hacker
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spaces, different kind of innovation,
makers and innovators across the world. So
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a quick housekeeping note for the session.
The format is that we're going to give
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each of the teams here on stage the
opportunity to present their work to you
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in about seven to 10 minutes, and then
we'll get to gather here to discuss the
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difference and the likenesses in
approaches and in perspectives,
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experiences and ideas. And then we would
like to invite you all to join this
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discussion and open the floor. So to kick
things off I would invite you first to
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share a little bit the story of FOSS Asia
and your work at the last 10 years, Hong.
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Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. I did not
expect that I would go first, but that's
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okay.
shuffling
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There we go.
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Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so hello everyone!
My name is Hong Phuc Dang, or HP Dang if
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you want to look for me on the web. So
today I will talk about how I get involved
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in open source community in the first
place, and also some highlights of my work
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at FOSS Asia during the past 10 years.
Before that a little bit about my
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background. I was born and grew up in a
small town in South Vietnam. It is called
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Can Tho, I don't know if any of you have
been there before, but it's about 200
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kilometers south of Hoh Chi Minh City.
This is my first 20 years of my life, so
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I've been always there, feel like a
confusing little girl because I keep
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wondering what I really want to achieve in
my life. My family, my parents were not
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so... were poor at that time. In 1987,
most of the families there were poor due
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to the war. We just finished the war and
then the reform of Vietnam. My parents
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been working very hard so that me and my
sister could have a better future. And the
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only motivation that I have in my life
until I was 20: to get a very good job
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somewhere after graduation, so that I can
earn some money, take care of my parents,
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and be able to afford something that I
could never have when I was a kid. So this
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is what I was thinking when I got to 20
years old. I went to school, I studied
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super super hard but I never had really
interested in school and I also don't
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understand so much what I learn and get
out of school. I just know that if I study
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hard I would have a good future. In 2007 I
met Mario Behling who later on became my
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mentor and also a partner later on. Not on
Tinder, but at a free event, a free
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technology event in Hanoi. In 2007 it was
the first time I learned about free
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software. In the same year, I switched
from Windows XP to Ubuntu and started to
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use open source. And then so I started to
involve with different user groups in the
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region, and also contribute small bits,
like localization into some software
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project. At the same time I also learned
how to submit a bug report, make an issue
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to different projects. And by involving in
the open source community I got to meet so
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many interesting people that inspire me.
So I always have very cool conversation
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with people who've been involved in one
project for over 15, 20 years. That really
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inspired me, how people can be so
persistent and continuously work on
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something for so long. And when they talk
about their job, is so positive and
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energetic. Even though it keeps repeating,
but they're very patient and when I joined
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the community it's so good that people
always like very patient and took their
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time to explain to you when you don't
understand something. So two years later
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in 2009, Mario and I decided to found the
FOSS Asia organization. So FOSS Asia, the
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goal of FOSS Asia is to bring together an
inspired community across Asia, a lot of
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different communities to view a better
future with open technologies. Since then
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we have developed so many different
projects with the FOSS Asia communities.
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These are some of the software and also
hardware projects that we've been working
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on. SUSI.AI is an alternative to Alexa or
Google Home, and Pocket Science Lab is our
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newly released open hardware project. You
can find all the projects on Github of
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FOSS Asia actually. Eventyay is an event
solution that's similar to what you have
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here, the[unclear][???], just scheduling
and also ticket selling open source did
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entirely by the FOSS Asia community. We
also organize a lot of events, conferences
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and meet-ups throughout our regions. One
of our biggest events is the FOSS Asia
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Summit, happens every year in March in
Singapore. Throughout the year we also
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have smaller workshops and events in
China, in India, Vietnam, Indonesia,
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Malaysia and many other places. Some of
the highlights of my last 10 years. In
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2010 it was my first time into Europe. It
was so difficult to get a visa to come
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here. I know, for many of you, but it was
a big thing for me to enter Europe for the
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first time. I got invited to the Libre
Graphics meeting. This is the photo taken
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when I was giving a talk. You can see it,
I was super nervous at that time. And the
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next picture, after the talk I went to
dinner with a group of friends, the people
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from the Libre Graphics communities. I was
the only girl but I did not realize that
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until somebody comment on my Facebook, why
you was the only girl in the picture. But
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it was really cool and very welcoming in
the community. 2012 we built a hotel in
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our hometown Can Tho, and we labelled it
the Open Source hotel. You can look up,
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Hotel Xoai is the name of the place. So
basically it's built by the Open Source
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community member. So we set up the
wireless network with OpenWRT. I did
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the entire wiring for the telephone
myself. I did it for three weeks but I was
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very proud of it and we have the
declaration inside the hotel is donated to
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us by the Libre Graphics community, so by
some artists in that community. And in
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this space we hosted a lot of workshops
and we hosted many open source
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contributors in our place. So we have dDebian
developers, we have GIMP contributers, we
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have people from all over the world to
come and stay with us in this space here
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in Vietnam. In the same year I also hosted
the group of artists and designers that I
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met in Brussels in 2010 in Hoh Chi Minh
City. So we did an open source design week
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in Saigon, and surprisingly more than 40%
of the participants are female. So what we
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did in this design week, we showed people
how to make artwork with free tools, with
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free software, and at the end we also made
an exhibition, what kind of work that you
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can do with free software. And 2014 it was
my first time attending the CCC, and this
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is the first person that I met in the
speaker room, who spend several minutes of
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his valuable time to explain to me what is
the difference between free software and
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open source.
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laughter
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Hong Phuc Dang: But I was very happy I was
also a speaker at that time, so we got a
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photo together. 2016 we launch Code Heat
Program, which is an online coding
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programme done by the FOSS Asia community.
So the goal of this program is to help
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young developers and contributors to start
to work in open source software and how to
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become an active contributor to open
source. So we have our FOSS Asia members
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to guide them, so everything happenes on
GitHub, we have GitHub channels where
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people can post questions. And at the end
the winners will win a trip to the FOSS
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Asia Summit and present about their
working experience during the programme.
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2018. So we released our Pocket Science
Lab to the market. So the project been
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going on for the past two years and we
will finally produce them in China and now
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started to distribute them all over the
world. So we have a shop in Japan which
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has sold out in two days. We also
distributed in India, in Singapore, in
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Europe and it's been piloting in school in
Singapore, in India and also in Vietnam.
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So basically it's a small device that
helps you to make science experiments.
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It's an oscilloscope with logic analyzer and
many different functions. We have a
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workshop here as well at the CCC if you
want to find out more. Okay some of my
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approach and lesson learned for the
question about what strategy that you do
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to engage many people in the community and
how to rear the communitiy. So what I
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learned from the past 10 years: The first
thing is to be sincere with whoever you
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meet. That how my reaction in the
community to be sincere with people, and
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empower the people in the community. Just
like when I first joined the community,
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the more responsibility to give to people,
they feel empower and they, it's also
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better to scale up the community.
Motivation; in order to work with people
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and to find the right approach you need to
understand the motivation behind
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individuals and it's really important to
rear the community. And my philosophy is
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it always better by sharing. So we share
our knowledge, that what's the reason we
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are here – we share our resources and we
bring people together. Finally, in the
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FOSS Asia community, I made friends. Their
friendship is important over the years and
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I know that the people I've been working
with or engaged with will be friends for
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life – so that is a good thing about the
free software community. And next year
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2009 will be our 10-year milestone of the
FOSS Asia organization. We have a big
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celebration in Singapore between March 14
and 17. If you happen to be there or you
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plan a trip to Asia you are very welcome
to join us. The website 2019.fossasia.org.
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And here at the CCC we have a group of
FOSS Asia member flew in from Singapore,
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from France, from Spain and also in
Germany. We have a laser cutter here,
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built by a FOSS Asia member in Singapore,
open source laser cutter. The small
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picture here is [???] carrying it and is
at our FOSS Asia assembly if you want to
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check it out. If you want to get in touch
with us, or you want to look for me at the
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end of the talk, you can search on the
navigation app for FOSS Asia and our
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number is a 8575. Thank you.
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applause
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GdB: Thank you very much Hong for that
introduction into FOSS Asia and your work.
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Azam, Sarah, would
you like to go next to present Le RESET?
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Le Reset speaker (left): Okay so we both
come from France. We are part of Le RESET,
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which is a feminist and queer hacker space
and we're going to explain a little bit
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what we are doing, why we're doing it and
how. So our hacker space welcomes actively
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people who usually do not feel safe or
included in many other hacker spaces. So
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mostly queer persons and women, because
most of straight men feel really entitled
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to learn and share what they learn and
teach everything. And on the other side
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you have queer persons and women who have
major imposter syndrome when it comes to
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technology. We observe these things and
also that the solutions to fix all issues
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are also designed by straight men so they
are not adequate with our issues and that
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we have a big lack of transmission in our
communities. So as we were to the geeky
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ones around queers and queer ones around
geeks we did Le RESET to have a space that
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is the intersection of queer and geek
people. So it takes place in a queer bar
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in Paris every Sunday. And I'm really
scared, I'm sorry. We started in 2016 and
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we speak directly to women and queers so
that they feel welcome and included and
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would come to our space. We built a code
of conduct that we may discuss further,
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that we embody so we endorse it and not
just write it somewhere. So our basis are
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feminist ethics based on the "Ethics of
Care" by Joan Tronto. We do workshops for
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beginners every session and we really
insist on the things for beginners. The
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workshops are mainly hosted by queer or
women and we do not treat differently
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infosec, coding, gaming, crafts, care
practice and all the things we do not make
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a hierarchy. We analyzed the board
dynamics with material feminism and
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most of our projects are cyber feminists.
Le Reset speaker (right): So I'm going to
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talk a little more about some projects
that we have at Le Reset, what is it, so I
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took three different examples. The best
example is the crypto bar. So it's
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basically a one on one crypto party with
just one person as they were launched by
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Asher Wolf and those security talks, they
are menu oriented toward cyber harassment
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because women and queer people usually ask
us about security issues when they have
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trouble with cyber harassment. And so we
have identified it to be the main threat
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model for us, and not like the NSA or
something else. Another example of a
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project that we have is "everything about
health reappropriation". So as women and
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queers our health is often in the hands of
doctors that don't explain stuff to us or
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that don't do what we want them to do with
our health because they have norms that
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we're supposed to follow. And so we work
around. We work with transgender people
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around hormones and also with trans people
and women around gynecology. And so we
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have a partnership with women doing self
gynecology workshops. So we create zines
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and we share knowledge and practices about
those and we also have a lab project that
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is inspired by the je ne peine club from
Calafou and also by
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the Open Source estrogen project by Mary
Maggic that was presented in the CCC last
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year [https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9036-ope
n_source_estrogen]. And so the goal of
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this lab project is to take and analyze
our own cervical smear so that we can do
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an our own analysis with it. And the third
project I wanted to talk about was "the
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queer games". So the queer games is an
artistic and political movement that was
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initiated by an Entrepeneur Mattie
Brice. So the idea is that they're using
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game design as a tool to criticize
oppression systems. And so we're doing
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monthly queer games workshops in order to
empower queer people. We empower them
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through rendering our own narratives
visible through video games and also by
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learning skills to make our own video
games, even though most people who come
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don't have any idea of how to code, so we
also learn coding through it.
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GdB: Thank you very much
applause
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GdB: Thank you for that introduction into
your work. I think a lot of points raised
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that we're gonna debate also in a minute.
Em, can I ask you to go next.
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Em O'Sullivan: I didn't have any slides
but I do have some notes and my story is
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maybe a bit different to my other
panelists because I don't come from a
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specifically feminist organization. I live
in Brighton in the UK and our hackerspace
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is called Build Brighton. It started in
2009 so it was a fairly early hackerspace
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in the UK. It grew out of an existing
meetup that was focused on robotics and
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some of the people involved in that group
decided to set up their own hackerspace.
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So it began fairly organically. It was
inspired largely by the early U.S. hacker
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spaces in particular Mitch Altman visited
the robotics meetup when he was in
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Brighton and basically said, "hey you look
like the kind of group who should start a
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hackerspace" and that kind of triggered
the idea to go and set one up. So, it
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followed the same kind of ad hoc kind of
democracy structure. It had some informal
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leaders but things were kind of largely
decided by group consensus. For example
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when we first moved into our own dedicated
space, we spent the first couple of years
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meeting once a week in a coworking space
and then in 2011 had an opportunity to get
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our own workshop and the decision about
whether to do that was put to the entire
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membership around whether we wanted to
take on that responsibility, those extra
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costs and that decision was passed by
consensus and that's kind of how things
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have typically been done. In terms of
activities there's a lot of electronics
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projects typically, especially with it
going out to robotics group. The laser
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cutter has always been really popular and
was one of the first tools that was bought
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by the group. And we've recently had lots
of wood work workers coming in because we
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do have a fairly well-developed wood
working shop. In terms of gender diversity
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is also a fairly typical hackerspace.
There's currently 115 members of which
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around 10 to 15 percent are women or femme
presenting people and the aim of that
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statistic isn't to point out like how low
this representation is in this particular
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space. It's to highlight that this is a
typical number for a hackerspace. For me
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personally, a bit like Hong Phuc said, I'm
used to being in masculine spaces like I
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trained in media production originally
which is very male dominated. Then when I
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went to work in IT it was normal for me to
be at events that were mainly men and I
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suppose I just got used to this and it
became invisible to me. At the time I was
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working for a software development company
in Brighton and the company had two
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offices one for the technical team and one
for the rest of the staff. So like admin
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team, production team, HR, finance and so
on. My desk was in the tech room and I
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looked up one day and realized that I was
the only femme presenting person in a room
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of 20 men. It took that to kind of dropped
me back into realizing how weird the
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situation was and I also realized that
"Build Brighton", my hackspace, was a
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similar environments as well. And I became
really interested in why this was
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happening, because hacker spaces they are
theoretically open environments, like our
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space anyone can join. Membership is on a
pay what you can basis from five pounds a
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month. So the financial cost to entry are
very low. But we are still seeing the same
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issues as in other technology environments
and that's women and femme people were
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very underrepresented. I saw this as a
useful opportunity to look at the cultural
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issues that continue to prevent women's
engagement in technology spaces even when
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some of those structural and financial
barriers have been removed. And the reason
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this was really important to me as a topic
was because like for me personally joining
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my hackerspace was an extremely empowering
experience. I didn't have much experience
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before with DIY, with hardware, with
working with materials, and joining that
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community and having access to those tools
and that knowledge had a huge impact on
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how I see the world around me, on my
confidence to fix and adapt things when I
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need to and I really want more people to
have access to that empowerment.
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Especially people who don't necessarily
have existing experience with technology.
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So in 2016 I began my PhD looking at how
some hacker spaces and maker spaces have
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been more successful than others in
engaging women and femme people. I'm
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currently still in the data collection
phase of my research, but I visited
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various hacker spaces and maker spaces
around Europe and the US, spoken to lots
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of people from these spaces and seen a
wide range of approaches to dealing with
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gender diversity, ranging from acute
hostility towards any suggestion of
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specifically trying to engage women, right
through to spaces that have made this a
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core part of that group culture. So I hope
that range of perspectives can come in
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useful to discussion today. And I'm also
currently putting together a zine with
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contributions from hacker spaces and maker
spaces that have developed inclusive
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practices, not necessarily focused on
gender but also on engaging other
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underrepresented groups like people of
color, people with disabilities, people
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with lower socio economic statuses because
I think it's really important that those
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practices are publicized as widely as
possible so that other spaces can learn
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from them. So if any of you have any
suggestions about spaces that should be
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included in that zine please do email me.
My contact details are on the Fahrplan and
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I would love to hear about any spaces that
you could recommend.
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GdB: Thank you! And last but not least Lena.
Lena Mohr: I'm Lena, I'm one of the three
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founders of "ready to code". We are an
organization based based in Stuttgart in
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the south of Germany. Our story started...
so know first what we do is we inspire
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women and girls to learn how to code and
to work in tech and support each other.
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There are two main reasons why we do what
we do. I think the first one is quite
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obvious that there are not enough women
who work in tech, and the second one is
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more personal because I am a user
experience designer, and part of my
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studies was learning how to code and I
found it extremely difficult because I had
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all these biases and pictures in my head
and I just knew that I was going to fail
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at coding before I ever wrote my first
line of code. I was not alone with this. I
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saw this and a lot of my friends and a lot
of the girls who studied with me. And the
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good news is that we had to pass the exam
so we sort of had to learn it. and I also
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had really great and really patient
friends who not only taught me to code and
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taught me the facts but also convinced me
that I was able to do that. And the moment
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when you clicked like you said that was a
really empowering moment, because I felt
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like the not only the knowledge opened a
whole new world of opportunities, but also
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the self-confidence that I gained through
that. And that is what we also want to
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share with other women and girls. So what
we do is we run workshops for women and
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for girls and like Le Reset we make sure
that they are for a beginner so everyone
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can participate, and I think we're
probably going to talk about that as well
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a little bit further. And we also have a
networking event that's called cocktails
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and code where women in tech can meet and
connect and share their experiences and we
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organize lightning talks from female
speakers so yeah people who are new to
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tech can come and it's fairly low level
and everyone can participate. And we also
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organize different events. For example a
couple of weeks ago we organized a social
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hackathon on and I think what we do a
little bit different is that one of our
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founders is a guy, a straight cis guy. So
a lot of the volunteers that are working
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for us are also male and we had a lot of
good experiences with this because we
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think it's important to include everyone.
But we talked a little bit before and I
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think we're going to have a discussion
about that afterwards as well, that a lot
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of women who come to us are also looking
for females only space, so they really
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appreciate a safer space where they can
just be around other women.
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GdB: Thank you very much, Lena. So as
you've heard we have very different work
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rounds that say very different rooms of
experiences. And we'd like to just jump
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right into discussion. We're going to take
about 15, 20 minutes to discuss a little
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bit amongst ourselves before opening and
including all of you in the debate. So
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let's pick up straight the point that you
closed with and I'd like you to join in
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but I think I'll direct the question at
you first. Sometimes we have to, or it
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seems that way, we'd have to be exclusive
in order to increase inclusion or
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fairness. And if I understood you
correctly you've created a space that
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doesn't necessarily exclude anybody but it
doesn't put straight men in the focus. Can
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you explain a little bit exactly how you
try to shape that community that you're
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working with and where you're where you
drew the line of inclusion and exclusion
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in your approach.
Le Reset speaker (right): So we have a
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code of conduct. Everybody is welcome to
come into hackerspace as long as they
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apply to the code of conduct. So we are
open to everyone but everything that we
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organize is directed to queer people and
women. So our communication is oriented
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towards them. The workshops organized also
by queer people and women. So basically we
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just don't care about straight men.
Gdb: But they can come.
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Le Reset speaker (right): They can come.
(laughter and applause)
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Gdb: Lena you said one of your founders is
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a straight man, so that's something that
you do that you do differently.
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Lena: We just started a year ago so we are
also still trying our different
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approaches. And I like what you said that,
I think you mentioned that they are
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invited if they want to come but you're
not marketing for them. You saw our logo.
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And in the first workshop that we ran for
kids we said it's only for girls. And the
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second one we said we have reserving a
number of seats for girls because we want
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to increase diversity and no boy signed
up. So from now on we're not even putting
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it's only for girls on our flyers but
because it looks so girly no boys
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interested in joining us apparently and I
think that's interesting because usually
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it works the other way around so probably
subconsciously or unconsciously it's
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posters or websites look like they're made
for boys or for guys and women don't feel
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attrackted to it. And we do it the other
way around and it works quite well. But
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yeah. But we also have men that are asking
us like "Oh we we also like cocktails and
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code, Why can't we join?" And it's like
yeah of course you can. You're welcome. We
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didn't have any negative experience with
it so far.
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GdB [to Em O'Sullivan]: you're going to be
our academic sounding board at this panel.
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In the research that you've conducted, do
you see certain kinds of trends emerging
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or sort of maybe perhaps as a strength of
certain strategies of those hacker spaces
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or communities or programs that try to
specifically target not straight men but
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other communities. On the question of "how
exclusive do you have to be, to be
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inclusive".
Em O'Sullivan: So, I've been to spaces
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that are women only or women and non
binary people only, and they're really
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important for getting over the question of
"is it just that women aren't interested"
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which is something that I've encountered
in a few spaces. It's like well you know
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we're not excluding women they just don't
seem to be interested. They're not coming
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here. And then when you provide a women
only space and women go there, then you
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can point to that and go: Well okay that's
just not true. That must be something
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about these other spaces that isn't
including them. But then the next step is
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how do you get that inclusion to work in
an all gender space. Because, we live in
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an all gender world. And how do you it
take out of those safe spaces and take it
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into other environments and that there
does need to be a specific aim to be
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inclusive. It's interesting that you say
it's like, we don't exclude men. We just
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kind of don't focus stuff on them. And
that seems to be the approach of maker
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spaces, and hacker spaces in general.
Except there's no recognition of that.
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There's that, well, we don't exclude
women. You know, they're just not here.
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Like, they could come here and there's not
the recognition that all of their
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presentation, like all of the their
culture, from the outside looks like it's
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geared towards men. And so of course
that's the kind of people that they
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attract. But yeah, they haven't made that
decision, it's just what they're doing and
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there's no recognition of it. So yeah, to
change that there does have to be a
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recognition that if you want to attract
people from different groups then you do
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need to reach out and specifically engage
them. it's not going to just happen by
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itself.
GdB: Thank you. Hong, how has it been for
378
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you in the last 10 years of managing FOSS
Asia? Because, there's another level that
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comes in. You do this across different
cultures and across different countries
380
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within Southeast Asia. How do you find
that it's developed over the last 10
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years, and how much do you have to put an
emphasis on trying to bring in not just
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women, but perhaps also people from
different backgrounds into your community.
383
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Hong Phuc Dang: So, if you look at
Southeast Asia, and I look at and FOSS
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Asian community we find diverse and
inclusive. It would take forever to talk
385
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about of different cultures from
Singapore, Malaysia. It's also related to
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the religions and the culture of each
country. But, could I ask the Le RESET
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hackerspace a question? I was curious. I
kind of have the same opinion with Em. I
388
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was curious, was there any experience in
the past that motivated you to create a
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base that or focus more on women instead
of men. Is there any bad experience, an
390
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incident that occurred to you?
Le Reset speaker: Yes, of course.
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Hong Phuc Dang: Could you share a little
bit about it? Because, I always say I,
392
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fought it passive, you know that maybe I
was lucky, because in our community I
393
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haven't experienced that much of a kind of
incident that make me feel that I need a
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space for myself. Because when I joined
the open source community, I feel that
395
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everyone's very welcome, and also people
don't look at you as who you are. People
396
00:36:44,670 --> 00:36:47,983
always look at your work and your
contribution to the community. So,
397
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sometimes you're in a conversation and you
don't even realize that you are with a
398
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bunch of other people from Europe or men.
You focus on the topic, and the work that
399
00:36:56,940 --> 00:37:02,384
you do. So I'm curious to learn about the
incident that you had before.
400
00:37:02,384 --> 00:37:07,270
Le Reset speaker (left): I have a few
examples if you want, but I think it's not
401
00:37:07,270 --> 00:37:12,091
about what you can do or not, that it's
about coming in the space and you feeling
402
00:37:12,091 --> 00:37:19,880
that you can come here and stay and be
well welcomed. So, as a woman actually...
403
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:30,569
I'm sorry I'm a little sick. The people
were asking if I came with my boyfriend,
404
00:37:30,569 --> 00:37:37,319
where he was. So, they were wondering what
I was doing here, because I was a woman.
405
00:37:37,319 --> 00:37:42,499
So, sorry, I don't have any boyfriend,
will never have one, but many girlfriends.
406
00:37:42,499 --> 00:37:53,559
So, no. And also, I was waiting to do lock
picking and waiting in the line to do
407
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:57,820
that. When I came to the tools the guy
said: Oh sorry, you have to leave the
408
00:37:57,820 --> 00:38:04,716
place for the guy, because I was just here
to look not to try. Many things like that.
409
00:38:04,716 --> 00:38:06,400
Hong Phuc Dang: Did that lock picking
happen here at a congress?
410
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,319
Le Reset speaker (left): Yeah, I know.
Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so now we know what
411
00:38:09,319 --> 00:38:14,160
prevent women from joining the tech
community. So maybe it wasn't intentional?
412
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,200
GdB (to Hong Phuc Dang): So you, I mean I
think it's really interesting what you
413
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,060
said, when in your community and
experience you have you see the code and
414
00:38:21,060 --> 00:38:25,770
not the gender. I think a lot of people
here in the room. I'm guessing it came to
415
00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:28,809
the session but also on the panel have had
really different experiences, but of
416
00:38:28,809 --> 00:38:33,619
course this is really positive here. Maybe
even a little bit surprising to hear,
417
00:38:33,619 --> 00:38:40,480
because perhaps that would have been maybe
a stereotypical perception that in some
418
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,559
other societies which are part of
South/Southeast Asia the very traditional
419
00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:50,200
and it's maybe not so typical for women to
be or people of different backgrounds.
420
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,890
Maybe, like I said not just women but also
people of different educational
421
00:38:52,890 --> 00:38:55,960
backgrounds of different cultural
backgrounds to be part of this community.
422
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,589
But of course it's very nice to hear that
you've had a very different experience.
423
00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:06,480
That's I think a keyword that we've heard
from many of you and you also mentioned
424
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,499
your core values is empowerment and
creating empowerment empowering
425
00:39:11,499 --> 00:39:17,140
experiences for others. You've already
said a little bit about how you try to do
426
00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:21,200
that and giving people space to create
their own narratives. Do you want to share
427
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,000
a little bit more, what have been like
successes for you were you noticed this
428
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:34,791
has been working for your commu nity.
Lena Mohr: Maybe I could start?
429
00:39:34,791 --> 00:39:39,440
Le Reset speaker(right): Go on.
Lena Mohr: I think one of the women who
430
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,119
came to our meetup afterwards. She came to
us and she was really happy and she said
431
00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:49,009
like: "Ok, I have a place where I can be
among my geek friends and talk about geeky
432
00:39:49,009 --> 00:39:52,930
stuff and I have my feminist friends to
whom I can come and talk about feminist
433
00:39:52,930 --> 00:39:58,190
stuff and but I never had both." So I have
friends and I think it's also important
434
00:39:58,190 --> 00:40:01,450
that you mentioned that it wasn't it
probably wasn't intentional, when someone
435
00:40:01,450 --> 00:40:04,950
asks you like: "Hey where's your
boyfriend?". Maybe it was trying to start
436
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:06,940
a conversation, but that doesn't make it
any better.
437
00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:09,380
Le Reset speaker (left): I'm not sure,
but...
438
00:40:09,380 --> 00:40:13,589
Lena Mohr: Ok, that's even...
GdB: Yeah, I mean I can also say like I
439
00:40:13,589 --> 00:40:17,940
have the same experience regularly and
it's an... Even in spaces where I've been
440
00:40:17,940 --> 00:40:25,500
member for years and that I really love
dearly and I think you know you sort of at
441
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:32,020
least me, past me I never try to take
offense, but of course it is offensive and
442
00:40:32,020 --> 00:40:36,019
this is something we had a quick chat
about your level of tolerance for this.
443
00:40:36,019 --> 00:40:42,820
The threshold of acceptance is for me at
least becomes less and less and I think we
444
00:40:42,820 --> 00:40:47,390
had a quick conversation and one of the
keywords was patience. So, when you have
445
00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:52,869
tried to sort of, yeah, already create
spaces that are different for communities
446
00:40:52,869 --> 00:40:57,460
like all of ours that are different you
want... You know, you expect more
447
00:40:57,460 --> 00:41:02,871
basically. Expect people to be better at
this game and things to change faster. So
448
00:41:02,871 --> 00:41:05,420
I think the sort of level of frustration
that builds up when you find it is not
449
00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:10,529
changing as you know just as you said in
your talk. It's shocking to hear that that
450
00:41:10,529 --> 00:41:14,069
level of apprehension of including women
and doing things to actually really
451
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:18,920
support women coming in and making sure
all parts of society are equally
452
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:24,060
represented is still that strong. Do
you... Have you looked into like the "why"
453
00:41:24,060 --> 00:41:26,650
a little bit in your research.
Em O'Sullivan: Like something that's
454
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:32,829
really interesting is that, in the absence
of groups like people with disabilities is
455
00:41:32,829 --> 00:41:41,680
more readily seen as something that can be
helped by changing the space by
456
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:48,729
introducing kind of ramps, wheelchair
access technologies and rearranging the
457
00:41:48,729 --> 00:41:52,650
space, so that it's more accessible. But
then when it comes to cultural aspects,
458
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:56,749
such as including women, that seen as
something that's unchangeable. So spaces
459
00:41:56,749 --> 00:42:01,460
are often willing to change to be more
diverse, but they have kind of a mental
460
00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:06,279
block on being able to include people like
women or people of color, who they see as
461
00:42:06,279 --> 00:42:10,696
more kind of. There's no way that these
groups can come and join us. They're just
462
00:42:10,696 --> 00:42:14,160
not interested and so like that's a very
unusual thing to see.
463
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,460
GdB: So you mentioned earlier, that you
have a code of conduct. And... and I think
464
00:42:20,460 --> 00:42:24,290
that's, I'd love to hear like, how did you
develop this code of conduct for your
465
00:42:24,290 --> 00:42:27,799
community? And is this sort of a living
thing? Did you come up with this in the
466
00:42:27,799 --> 00:42:31,410
beginning and it's been set like that or
is it something that you revise and how do
467
00:42:31,410 --> 00:42:35,299
you implement it?
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually it's a
468
00:42:35,299 --> 00:42:42,519
really simple code of conduct with 10
phrases and sentences and it says not to
469
00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:48,999
discriminate anybody and to respect
boundaries and things that are making us
470
00:42:48,999 --> 00:42:57,740
all live together well. That's the
important thing is that we endorse it
471
00:42:57,740 --> 00:43:08,200
really, so we put it on the walls. We talk
about it and we observe the dynamics into
472
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:16,999
the hackerspace. What do people do. How do
they feel we welcome them. We apply ethics
473
00:43:16,999 --> 00:43:25,729
of care that do the things I was talking
about. We help people, but we do not do
474
00:43:25,729 --> 00:43:30,809
things on their behalf. We do not speak
for the persons, but we are here to
475
00:43:30,809 --> 00:43:34,680
support, if they need. That's how it
works.
476
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,569
GdB: So are there many cases, where you
find, you need to mediate or have you had
477
00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:42,599
cases where you've had to exclude people
based on your code of conduct?
478
00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:47,940
Le Reset speaker (right): We haven't
excluded many people, but we feel totally
479
00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:54,190
fine with having to exclude someone, we're
not afraid of it. But usually we try to
480
00:43:54,190 --> 00:44:00,660
talk to the person before we have to get
them out and remind them of the code of
481
00:44:00,660 --> 00:44:08,819
conduct. Our code of conduct is something
that we have to apply, but it's also full
482
00:44:08,819 --> 00:44:14,359
of keywords and so the idea is that every
time we're saying that organizing a
483
00:44:14,359 --> 00:44:18,050
workshop or doing your conference we talk
about it and we tell people to read it
484
00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:22,900
before they come. So that they also can
google the words that they don't know, so
485
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:28,380
that they come into hackerspace and they
know what it means to actually respect
486
00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:35,420
somebodies pronouns or things like this.
GdB: So. How would you all balance sort of
487
00:44:35,420 --> 00:44:40,539
the mission of what your space is about to
do and what your communities are there to
488
00:44:40,539 --> 00:44:46,320
do in terms of creating safe space for the
people that you have as part of your
489
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:53,150
community and educating the rest of the
world.
490
00:44:53,150 --> 00:45:03,900
Hong Phuc Dang: I can say something. So
code of conduct is a good way to ensure
491
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:10,050
that safe space for people. And in terms
of inclusiveness, so there, so I think
492
00:45:10,050 --> 00:45:14,500
that in order to solve this problems at
first, is a good way that we bring people
493
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:19,509
together who can talk about the challenges
and incidents; that they had in the past
494
00:45:19,509 --> 00:45:24,839
so that the people in the audience also
aware that they might not intentionally
495
00:45:24,839 --> 00:45:29,819
raise this question. But now people aware
of what could be offense do to another
496
00:45:29,819 --> 00:45:33,359
members. But I think one of the bigger
challenge is that the people in the
497
00:45:33,359 --> 00:45:40,059
community sometimes people are not aware
of the level the difference of background
498
00:45:40,059 --> 00:45:45,309
of different people in the community. For
instance, I want to give one example. So,
499
00:45:45,309 --> 00:45:50,759
when you visit one of the hackersspace in
Singapore. Normally when you come in even
500
00:45:50,759 --> 00:45:56,160
though this is your first time entered a
hackerspace, nobody would come and talk to
501
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,239
you, try to introduce to you to the space,
what other equipment is, because they
502
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,249
assumed that you already have the
knowledge. If you enter this, there's got
503
00:46:03,249 --> 00:46:08,900
to be good you know everything. And
sometime I found a little bit intimidated
504
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:14,071
that I did not understand some joke that
make by my male colleagues, because they
505
00:46:14,071 --> 00:46:19,210
have different kind of knowledge coming
from the west from Europe or America. So
506
00:46:19,210 --> 00:46:22,700
it's very important that we are aware that
people coming from different backgrounds.
507
00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:25,920
So something that you think that is so
obvious to you that might not be obvious
508
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:31,950
to people. And it might raise some kind of
conflict and misunderstanding. Something
509
00:46:31,950 --> 00:46:36,779
if we are all aware, that piece of
knowledge we have might not be relevant to
510
00:46:36,779 --> 00:46:45,460
another person and always be aware and be
more flexible, then that could be less
511
00:46:45,460 --> 00:46:50,580
complex in the community in my opinion.
GdB: So again like I said
512
00:46:50,580 --> 00:46:56,429
(applause)
GdB: you're free to applaud.
513
00:46:56,429 --> 00:47:03,799
GdB: How do you try to balance that?
Le Reset speaker (right): We welcome
514
00:47:03,799 --> 00:47:08,430
everybody that comes into this space.
We're here every Sunday, so we usually
515
00:47:08,430 --> 00:47:12,630
know who has come before and who hasn't.
And every time we see a new person there
516
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:16,990
is always someone who comes and explain
the code of conduct, but also like: what
517
00:47:16,990 --> 00:47:23,200
is this space, where you can find the
stickers, where is the workshop. So we
518
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,910
explain everything.
GdB: I think that sounds really nice. I
519
00:47:26,910 --> 00:47:30,619
think from what you've explained there's a
lot of magic in that very personal
520
00:47:30,619 --> 00:47:37,119
approach. You know, it's not that you're
like take them into your space when they
521
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,990
come in, but it's like this taking care of
each other and looking out for one
522
00:47:40,990 --> 00:47:45,130
another, which should be part of
respectful human conduct. No matter what
523
00:47:45,130 --> 00:47:51,650
kind of human you are. Right. Maybe one
last topic on the panel before we open up
524
00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:56,390
a little bit or maybe wanted to. I thought
it was really interesting to read on one
525
00:47:56,390 --> 00:48:02,660
of the little things on your slide. I
really like the one that said, I was writing
526
00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:07,950
too fast now I can't read my own writing:
"It is just privileged people's choice."?
527
00:48:07,950 --> 00:48:18,900
So in my experience very often we create
spaces like yours or like community, or
528
00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:24,339
creating the mind of creating. Bringing in
new people and giving people, who maybe
529
00:48:24,339 --> 00:48:30,869
haven't had sort of their typical tech
career, a chance to explore and see that
530
00:48:30,869 --> 00:48:35,059
they can be the creators of technology
themselves. But we end up also creating
531
00:48:35,059 --> 00:48:40,249
kind of bubbles and usually attracting
people with a certain background, usually
532
00:48:40,249 --> 00:48:46,009
creating spaces with people. We live in
Europe, we're like, you know, middle class
533
00:48:46,009 --> 00:48:51,119
white communities. And that's also,
perhaps, not the level of playing fields,
534
00:48:51,119 --> 00:48:54,569
when it comes to creating inclusive
technology. Is that something that you
535
00:48:54,569 --> 00:48:58,530
address in your spaces? I'm not looking at
you specifically because it's a little bit
536
00:48:58,530 --> 00:49:03,770
of a different intercultural setting that
you have with FOSS Asia. But how does
537
00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:07,960
that come into play, when we talk about
diversity in your experiences?
538
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:15,339
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually we are
located in a queer bar. So the people that
539
00:49:15,339 --> 00:49:23,719
are used to come to this bar to party and
date - they also come on Sundays, so we
540
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:31,420
have people that would never enter a
hacker space, you know, in other times. So we
541
00:49:31,420 --> 00:49:42,920
have, actually, met many women, many trans
people and queer people. One time we had
542
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,619
this girl, who never touched a computer.
We have people who have never played video
543
00:49:47,619 --> 00:49:54,870
games and so on. So we have really diverse
public.
544
00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:57,550
GdB: I think that's also interesting as
that was mentioned before the setting of
545
00:49:57,550 --> 00:50:01,499
where your space actually is, which is a
really important fact of how to make
546
00:50:01,499 --> 00:50:06,840
spaces accessible to different communities
as well. How's that for the space that you
547
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,650
have out there?
Em: So this is such a tricky question and
548
00:50:09,650 --> 00:50:14,260
particularly with the volunteer one
spaces. You have a limited amount of time
549
00:50:14,260 --> 00:50:19,660
and energy and do you spend that on
educating people, or do you spend it on
550
00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:26,239
engaging with people, who can use your
resources. And I lean towards the
551
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:31,650
engagement. I feel that it's important to
kind of get people in and to share what we
552
00:50:31,650 --> 00:50:36,839
already have with other groups. There are
resources out there, where people can
553
00:50:36,839 --> 00:50:41,299
educate themselves - like people in
technology communities, like very
554
00:50:41,299 --> 00:50:45,349
intelligent people, like they are more
than capable of kind of finding other
555
00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:52,950
resources and educating themselves. And if
the group has the capacity, for example,
556
00:50:52,950 --> 00:50:58,650
to run workshops around specific issues,
around consents, around kind of
557
00:50:58,650 --> 00:51:03,239
introductions to feminism and other topics
- then that's great. And that can be a
558
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:09,009
great way of educating our own community
and also taking those ideas into the
559
00:51:09,009 --> 00:51:16,249
outside community. But I think if it
was... if time was limited then I would
560
00:51:16,249 --> 00:51:21,330
definitely want to dedicate more to
engagement rather than educating people
561
00:51:21,330 --> 00:51:25,529
who are capable of educating themselves.
Le Reset speaker (right): About that
562
00:51:25,529 --> 00:51:29,930
education. Our hackerspace has been
invited to give feminism 101 talks
563
00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:36,829
like a lot. And so we answered yes to
those invitation and then we did not do
564
00:51:36,829 --> 00:51:40,940
feminism 101, because we believe
that there has been enough talks about
565
00:51:40,940 --> 00:51:45,359
feminism 101 already and there is
plenty of things available on the
566
00:51:45,359 --> 00:51:53,920
Internet. So we make usually talks about
ethics of care or cyber feminism. And
567
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:59,969
every time we go somewhere we have a wiki
page about it with all the links about
568
00:51:59,969 --> 00:52:07,730
four lines definition on Wikipedia or 40
pages PDF that you can download, or
569
00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:12,270
podcasts, so all the feminism 101
and all the education has already been
570
00:52:12,270 --> 00:52:17,440
done. So we are making sure that it's
accessible and then we are moving on,
571
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,650
because as you said we don't have this
energy to do again and again what other
572
00:52:21,650 --> 00:52:32,209
have done before us.
applause
573
00:52:32,209 --> 00:52:35,799
Lena: I think you've mentioned it already.
And I think you're also working
574
00:52:35,799 --> 00:52:41,329
voluntarily or a lot of volunteers come
and so, do they have the time and energy?
575
00:52:41,329 --> 00:52:46,589
As for me it's also sometimes... I'm just
not in the mood to explain everything
576
00:52:46,589 --> 00:52:53,140
again, like the really 101 stuff.
But other times, when I feel like someone
577
00:52:53,140 --> 00:52:58,299
is really curious and really wants to
learn something, and is respectful, and is
578
00:52:58,299 --> 00:53:06,079
not trying to provoke a discussion just to
have a discussion - because then, yeah, I
579
00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:10,190
don't know... With some persons I feel
like: okay, for him it might be a fun
580
00:53:10,190 --> 00:53:13,920
discussion just to, I don't know, just to
test the borders and see how far you can
581
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:19,310
go. But for me it's like: okay I'm talking
if I have the right to be here as a woman
582
00:53:19,310 --> 00:53:22,690
and I don't always feel like I want to
discuss that.
583
00:53:22,690 --> 00:53:28,969
GdB: Your patience level is going down as
well. Hong Phuc, how is it for you, how do
584
00:53:28,969 --> 00:53:33,880
you try to engage people in open source
communities that perhaps wouldn't normally
585
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:42,219
walk into a hackerspace? Or don't yet know
about the work that you do.
586
00:53:42,219 --> 00:53:53,569
Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So I found FOSS
Asia. And then for me it was quite lucky,
587
00:53:53,569 --> 00:53:59,239
because the founder of the organization is
a female. So it also help make other
588
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:04,250
people feel more comfortable to engage
with the open source community. But I
589
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:14,359
think as Em and Lena also said that the
number of women, who work in the tech
590
00:54:14,359 --> 00:54:23,390
community, is very small. And I think it's
important to understand that when you talk
591
00:54:23,390 --> 00:54:26,630
about technology - it's not only about
coding, because there are so many
592
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:33,089
different responsibilities and a
possibility that you could engage the
593
00:54:33,089 --> 00:54:39,339
woman or other community members in the
community. So it's important to have the
594
00:54:39,339 --> 00:54:44,109
guide lines to help people, a lot of good
documentation. To show people that by
595
00:54:44,109 --> 00:54:49,619
joining the community the first step you
did not have to fix a bug or write a line of
596
00:54:49,619 --> 00:54:53,469
code in order to join the community. You
can do a translation, you can do design,
597
00:54:53,469 --> 00:54:59,380
localization - many things that any single
one of us can be involved in, can
598
00:54:59,380 --> 00:55:06,239
contribute as our space. So I think that
is one step to lower the barriers to enter
599
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,369
the community.
GdB:Thank you.
600
00:55:09,369 --> 00:55:16,309
applause
GdB: I'd like to start opening up the
601
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:20,960
questions and comments. We have I think
two microphones here in the center of the
602
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:29,569
room and... you're first.
Mic: Hello. First of all thank you girls
603
00:55:29,569 --> 00:55:34,200
very much for this session. I kind of
relate to that, we're so to say from the
604
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:42,680
same club. I came from Estonia and there
I'm the organizer of the conference women
605
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:50,509
in cybersecurity and also head of Google
women tech makers in Estonia. And I can
606
00:55:50,509 --> 00:55:55,880
rely to a lot of things, which you have
mentioned. But what I am really interested
607
00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:03,069
because you're from different countries
is... Ms Dong has answered this question
608
00:56:03,069 --> 00:56:09,229
partially, but I'm interested in other
answers. How do you actually attract more
609
00:56:09,229 --> 00:56:14,039
women into IT? Not from the marketing
perspective, but from the perspective for
610
00:56:14,039 --> 00:56:22,069
your mission of your hacker space or your
community. And how do you make those
611
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:26,720
people stay and come to the events or, if
not come to the events, how do you make
612
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:33,150
them thinking of that and continue
studying? Yeah. And the success story that
613
00:56:33,150 --> 00:56:38,420
is something what we all would be really
interested in hearing. Because, for
614
00:56:38,420 --> 00:56:43,359
example, from Ms. Dong's story we can see
the open source projects I guess still a
615
00:56:43,359 --> 00:56:48,160
lot of girls might have been involved
there; and the hotel and other projects.
616
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,289
But what about the Europe? Tell us, that's
very curious. Thank you.
617
00:56:52,289 --> 00:56:57,329
GdB: Thank you very much. So we collect a
couple and then go around or how would you
618
00:56:57,329 --> 00:57:01,829
like to do it?
Mic: I can remind the questions if needed.
619
00:57:01,829 --> 00:57:08,240
How do you attract, how do you keep people
and how do you... the success stories.
620
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:13,180
GdB: Thank you. So let's do that. Do you
have your community, is it very
621
00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:16,910
fluctuating? Or do you have a kind of
stable group of people? Do you ever have a
622
00:57:16,910 --> 00:57:19,980
problem of connecting them back to your
space?
623
00:57:19,980 --> 00:57:26,779
Mic: Just before we start from the answer
for ladies - there is something else I
624
00:57:26,779 --> 00:57:28,960
wanted to mention. I also come not from
a....
625
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,059
GdB: There is a long queue behind you, and
we've already collected a couple of
626
00:57:33,059 --> 00:57:34,059
questions, so maybe just one more
sentence.
627
00:57:34,059 --> 00:57:37,589
Mic: Of course. Yeah. Thank you... No,
then go ahead for the answer.
628
00:57:37,589 --> 00:57:43,540
GdB: Okay. Thank you. How long time is
your community, how much does it
629
00:57:43,540 --> 00:57:47,430
fluctuate, how do you sort of keep people?
Le Reset speaker (right): We have people
630
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:52,819
that come like every Sunday and we have
people, who come just for one workshop,
631
00:57:52,819 --> 00:57:57,920
because they've been interested in that
topic. What we do to attract people is
632
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:04,089
that every Sunday we have a workshop, at
least one workshops, so people are usually
633
00:58:04,089 --> 00:58:09,069
interested in the topic or just interested
in meeting new people. But they always
634
00:58:09,069 --> 00:58:13,799
know that they won't just stand there and
have nobody to talk to. There is a
635
00:58:13,799 --> 00:58:19,749
workshop, like they have a purpose for
being here. And because the topics are
636
00:58:19,749 --> 00:58:25,940
always oriented towards women and queer we
don't have any issue attracting women and
637
00:58:25,940 --> 00:58:30,640
queers in the hackerspace. We've never had
a majority of straight men in the
638
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:36,589
hackerspace that has never happened.
GdB: Thank you. So Em, and your
639
00:58:36,589 --> 00:58:40,029
experience?
Em: Well, I mean it's a huge question how
640
00:58:40,029 --> 00:58:46,890
do you attract women into IT and retain
shortthem. Just to keep my answer fairly sure:
641
00:58:46,890 --> 00:58:53,279
one particular tip I have is to get a bit
academic for a second, kind of focus on
642
00:58:53,279 --> 00:58:57,309
developing like the social bonds within
your community rather than necessarily the
643
00:58:57,309 --> 00:59:02,569
tech aspects. Like when people have
friends and people they care about in this
644
00:59:02,569 --> 00:59:07,959
community - they're much more likely to
join it and want to stay there and to get
645
00:59:07,959 --> 00:59:14,519
more out of it. So sometimes focusing on
things that seem quite tangential like
646
00:59:14,519 --> 00:59:18,980
socializing and people spending time
together, like outside of the physical
647
00:59:18,980 --> 00:59:24,380
space and kind of doing like fun non tech
things together, like can actually do that
648
00:59:24,380 --> 00:59:27,369
job of bringing more women than and femme
people in and helping them to feel
649
00:59:27,369 --> 00:59:31,920
comfortable and welcome there.
GdB: I think there's a challenge maybe the
650
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:37,759
other way around too. In my experience
it's for many people spaces, like the ones
651
00:59:37,759 --> 00:59:43,440
that you create, become a home and so sort
of keeping people, having people want to
652
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:48,589
be part of that home is not so hard. But
making sure that you remain open for new
653
00:59:48,589 --> 00:59:53,440
people to sort of join that family and
feel as equally welcome can sometimes be
654
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:59,739
an even bigger challenge than attracting
people and keeping them in the beginning.
655
00:59:59,739 --> 01:00:04,930
Next question.
Mic: So my question will mostly be related
656
01:00:04,930 --> 01:00:10,709
to this mergery of the feminist hacker
spaces and the male hacker spaces. So I
657
01:00:10,709 --> 01:00:17,690
see that you are making spaces for women
and for a queer to get creative, but
658
01:00:17,690 --> 01:00:21,599
making these separate from other hacker
spaces in a bit of an isolation and I
659
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:29,269
guess this would be a next step to merge
these kind of societies. So from a male
660
01:00:29,269 --> 01:00:33,539
perspective it's sometimes hard to
understand what female don't find
661
01:00:33,539 --> 01:00:40,770
attractive or find distracting about
joining male societies, because feminist
662
01:00:40,770 --> 01:00:48,410
activism usually do not target male to
express what the problem is. So what do
663
01:00:48,410 --> 01:00:54,680
you think that could be done towards this
mergery? So to make women try to get
664
01:00:54,680 --> 01:01:04,470
involved in male hacker spaces and to make
men more acceptive to female. So this
665
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:11,509
mergery to get involved together. I hope
my question was on this...
666
01:01:11,509 --> 01:01:17,660
laughing
GdB: You can all feel free
667
01:01:17,660 --> 01:01:26,886
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't think
our goal is to merge our hacker spaces. We
668
01:01:26,886 --> 01:01:30,420
are creating hacker spaces around our
issues, if you want to come you're
669
01:01:30,420 --> 01:01:35,789
welcome. But what you will find here is
things that concerns us. But of course
670
01:01:35,789 --> 01:01:43,730
you're welcome. And...
applause
671
01:01:43,730 --> 01:01:46,160
Le Reset speaker (right): We don't have
any interest in your issues so we're not
672
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,169
coming to your hacker spaces. But...
applause
673
01:01:50,169 --> 01:01:57,160
Mic: Yeah. I understand this. And I don't
think that what you do is wrong. I just
674
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:01,320
think that this is a sort of isolation
between two different kinds of creative
675
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,320
energy.
GdB: Let's...
676
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,079
Le Reset speaker (right): I think you've
been in isolation much more longer than
677
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:09,079
us.
applause
678
01:02:09,079 --> 01:02:11,449
Mic: I mean probably separation, not
isolation.
679
01:02:11,449 --> 01:02:17,579
GdB: Let's.. Again I'm gonna say, there
are many people queuing behind you, so we
680
01:02:17,579 --> 01:02:20,239
do want to get in a conversation with
everyone, but we want to give everybody
681
01:02:20,239 --> 01:02:26,119
the chance to speak as well. I think I'm
gonna rephrase your question if I may,
682
01:02:26,119 --> 01:02:31,759
when it comes to the actual creation of
technology. Because I think that... let's
683
01:02:31,759 --> 01:02:34,119
see if there are two separate things or
not: the one thing is that you have a
684
01:02:34,119 --> 01:02:37,640
community and you have a space for that
community, and you want to prioritize the
685
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:42,489
issues of your community. The other
question is when we create technology and
686
01:02:42,489 --> 01:02:45,999
we create technology for the general
public. How do we ensure that that
687
01:02:45,999 --> 01:02:51,529
technology is created by the public as in
all members of that public and then
688
01:02:51,529 --> 01:02:56,180
reflects all of our values equally.
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
689
01:02:56,180 --> 01:02:58,180
in the general public.
GdB: Sorry?
690
01:02:58,180 --> 01:03:00,949
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
in the general public.
691
01:03:00,949 --> 01:03:09,069
applause
Hong Phuc Dang: So I could answer your
692
01:03:09,069 --> 01:03:14,240
question. I also don't want to give
comment about if we merging the two
693
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:19,089
groups. But if you want to make your
space, any hacker space, more welcome to
694
01:03:19,089 --> 01:03:23,769
woman or any member, the first thing: just
like in a normal context - if you have a
695
01:03:23,769 --> 01:03:27,930
new guest coming to your home, the first
thing is that to show the guest around.
696
01:03:27,930 --> 01:03:35,169
Like to interact with a person and to be
patient, and show them what they can do.
697
01:03:35,169 --> 01:03:38,650
And also one thing that I mentioned
earlier: because people have different
698
01:03:38,650 --> 01:03:42,469
background knowledge so it's more
important that you find out what is their
699
01:03:42,469 --> 01:03:47,859
motivation, to get to know the people
better. So make this more like the women
700
01:03:47,859 --> 01:03:52,630
feel more comfortable to come you to your
space instead of asking them to merge
701
01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:56,390
together with another space. Just create a
more friendly environment in your space.
702
01:03:56,390 --> 01:04:00,099
By just approaching the people, the
newcomers and welcome them.
703
01:04:00,099 --> 01:04:07,079
applause
GdB: Next person please.
704
01:04:07,079 --> 01:04:15,730
Mic: So I have some more of experience to
share than the question. I organize events
705
01:04:15,730 --> 01:04:24,740
for geeks and they are very male heavy,
let's say. And what I found is when it
706
01:04:24,740 --> 01:04:32,150
comes to disabled people and that the
community is more likely to actually
707
01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:37,489
change is because then they change
environment and they don't have to change
708
01:04:37,489 --> 01:04:39,489
themselves.
applause
709
01:04:39,489 --> 01:04:44,819
Mic: The huge problem usually is that the
male populated hacker space are generally
710
01:04:44,819 --> 01:04:54,210
community in general, feel that when they
have to open to female presence or a gay
711
01:04:54,210 --> 01:05:00,289
presence, etc. they have to change their
own behavior. And that it's not something
712
01:05:00,289 --> 01:05:04,630
they are willing to do. Sadly enough.
Thanks.
713
01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:10,179
GdB: Thank you. Was that question in there
you just wanted to share. Okay good. Thank
714
01:05:10,179 --> 01:05:12,709
you. There's an online question we'd like
to take next please.
715
01:05:12,709 --> 01:05:16,680
Signal Angel: The question was answered.
GdB: Oh...
716
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:20,604
laughing
GdB: Okay then. In that case.
717
01:05:20,604 --> 01:05:25,589
Mic: Hello. Thank you. First of all thank
you for all of your great work. I just
718
01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:29,940
want to have a question about something
that maybe a little bit missed in this
719
01:05:29,940 --> 01:05:34,309
conversation. And so we talked about all
of the communities and the hacker spaces
720
01:05:34,309 --> 01:05:41,480
that focused on a woman and non binaries.
But imagine a scenario that there is a
721
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:47,170
company or there's like a startup and
there is not much diversity and we want to
722
01:05:47,170 --> 01:05:55,140
improve like representation of people of
marginalized group or anyway. How
723
01:05:55,140 --> 01:06:00,569
we can achieve that? There are lots of
suggestions like hire people who are like
724
01:06:00,569 --> 01:06:07,569
visible to others, to be very open about
this and try to attract more people. But
725
01:06:07,569 --> 01:06:13,359
is there any sort of way to talk to get
these successful stories about to improve
726
01:06:13,359 --> 01:06:19,930
the diversity of companies and startups
and other types of communities?
727
01:06:19,930 --> 01:06:28,470
GdB: Thank you.
Lena: I think it's often you have biases
728
01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:34,209
sometimes in the hiring process, so maybe
you go through different CVs of different
729
01:06:34,209 --> 01:06:39,959
persons and then you... I only know
examples from Germany, but I guess it's
730
01:06:39,959 --> 01:06:45,569
the same everywhere. If you read a CV with
a name that sounds foreign to you, you
731
01:06:45,569 --> 01:06:49,700
might put it to the side or might
automatically think: okay maybe this
732
01:06:49,700 --> 01:06:58,900
person is not equally capable. Even if the
skills are the same. And also in your job
733
01:06:58,900 --> 01:07:04,180
descriptions you can make sure that it's
more inclusive so you don't say like: okay
734
01:07:04,180 --> 01:07:12,890
the perfect person "he" should have this
and that's, put "he and she". And I think
735
01:07:12,890 --> 01:07:18,829
a lot of times it's about really really
subtle changes and small things. And like
736
01:07:18,829 --> 01:07:21,369
you said it's a change of the mindset. So
it's...
737
01:07:21,369 --> 01:07:24,771
GdB: Yeah, please.
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually, you
738
01:07:24,771 --> 01:07:30,239
know, in Le Reset we do not value success
stories at all. We don't care. We value
739
01:07:30,239 --> 01:07:35,630
partnership. Partnership and being well
together, and that's what works actually.
740
01:07:35,630 --> 01:07:41,920
We do many things, but not by pushing
things. To be a woman or queer, or
741
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:47,709
whatever... we do what we want to do, what
we like and that works. That's just that.
742
01:07:47,709 --> 01:07:50,189
Mic: Thank you.
GdB: Thank you.
743
01:07:50,189 --> 01:07:55,819
applause
GdB: Maybe we can exchange after this. Oh
744
01:07:55,819 --> 01:07:59,779
there's a lot of great written walks
already out there that give advice to
745
01:07:59,779 --> 01:08:03,819
companies and startups that want be more
inclusive. But like the the simplest thing
746
01:08:03,819 --> 01:08:08,599
if, like you said it yourself, if you want
to be inclusive - have an inclusive team.
747
01:08:08,599 --> 01:08:14,279
You cannot have an inclusive or diverse
startup if your team are all men and the
748
01:08:14,279 --> 01:08:18,820
excuse that you didn't find the right
people out there doesn't really go. Either
749
01:08:18,820 --> 01:08:22,580
because, like you said, then maybe you're
looking the wrong way. And if you
750
01:08:22,580 --> 01:08:26,350
seriously can't find anybody with a
skillset you're looking for - then help
751
01:08:26,350 --> 01:08:31,500
people build that skillset. So there are
always ways to actually do that in your
752
01:08:31,500 --> 01:08:40,440
team. Please.
Mic: Hi. Six of you proposed talks. We got
753
01:08:40,440 --> 01:08:45,600
one talk. Yes you are six awesome women.
It's an awesome topic. We've got an
754
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:50,569
audience of roughly 50/50. It's one of the
most balanced audiences I've seen that
755
01:08:50,569 --> 01:08:55,870
this entire event, but I'm pretty certain
that the men in here are majority male
756
01:08:55,870 --> 01:09:01,170
allies. The women you're preaching to the
perverted here, why is it that we have
757
01:09:01,170 --> 01:09:07,650
allowed ourselves to be gerrymandered in
this way. Why do we have only one session.
758
01:09:07,650 --> 01:09:22,620
Why do we not have six sessions.
applause
759
01:09:22,620 --> 01:09:31,600
Mic: Adams, Borg, Clark, Dijkstra. The
meeting rooms are named after men! Women
760
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:36,520
are 50/50 of the population. Why are we
allowing this to happen. I appreciate. I'm
761
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:40,447
looking you in the eye and I'm guilty
here of preaching to perverted too. But
762
01:09:40,447 --> 01:09:45,060
why are we allowing it. Why is it
happening. It's 2018. It's soon to be
763
01:09:45,060 --> 01:09:57,960
2019. We deserve better.
applause
764
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:02,959
Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. Thank you very
much for your concern. But I think that...
765
01:10:02,959 --> 01:10:06,590
don't you think that is good to bring
people together because, of course like we
766
01:10:06,590 --> 01:10:11,980
can have separate section, but it also
very good to have everyone come together
767
01:10:11,980 --> 01:10:14,980
and share their opinions so we can have a
conversation, in which we can learn for
768
01:10:14,980 --> 01:10:19,240
each other. So again that the congress is
very busy. Not everyone can come to every
769
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:24,400
single talk. Maybe we'll not be able to
attend always our friends who are the
770
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,350
panelists here. But it's good that we can
come all together. So are always pro and
771
01:10:28,350 --> 01:10:31,710
con. But thank you very much for your
concern.
772
01:10:31,710 --> 01:10:34,480
applause
GdB: We have exactly time for one last
773
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:37,210
question/intervention and that shall be
you.
774
01:10:37,210 --> 01:10:42,730
Mic: Thank you. Thank you for the talk and
thank you for this opportunity. I'm
775
01:10:42,730 --> 01:10:49,100
probably in the category of a straight
male engineer. But I also more or less...
776
01:10:49,100 --> 01:10:55,290
but I also have, I'm running a coworking
space in Copenhagen and I'm specifically
777
01:10:55,290 --> 01:11:00,620
focusing on making it inclusive. So I'll
be trying to find an information and tips
778
01:11:00,620 --> 01:11:08,860
on how to do that. But I have two other
questions then. What would be your top
779
01:11:08,860 --> 01:11:17,340
three action points on ending the digital
gender divide? It's a big topic, I know.
780
01:11:17,340 --> 01:11:21,400
laughing
GdB: There's a small question for the end
781
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:22,990
of session.
Mic: Yeah.
782
01:11:22,990 --> 01:11:26,120
GdB: And you had a second one even.
Mic: Yeah. The second one was...
783
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:30,120
laughing
Mic: I guess that's, I mean, I really see
784
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:36,370
the points being raised about designing. I
mean just down to the level of design:
785
01:11:36,370 --> 01:11:40,730
designing a website targeted to a male
audience versus targeted to a female
786
01:11:40,730 --> 01:12:02,230
audience. And the second question was...
What was that... The FOSS Asia. In Asia I
787
01:12:02,230 --> 01:12:08,440
read an article lately from after access
magazine about Internet usage throughout
788
01:12:08,440 --> 01:12:14,730
the global south. And it's thus in Asia
you have like 20 percent of the population
789
01:12:14,730 --> 01:12:20,960
on the Internet. Do you see that as a
problem? And what do you think could be
790
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:23,980
done about it?
GdB: Okay so how do we close the digital
791
01:12:23,980 --> 01:12:30,480
divide as such and how to close the gender
divide. Specifically. Okay. Thank you.
792
01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:36,270
Hong Phuc Dang: And I don't want to
announce that I am suggested we have a
793
01:12:36,270 --> 01:12:42,470
after panel discussion, so we hosted a
follow up discussion at the FOSS Asia
794
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:45,890
assembly after this. If you have more
questions and you want to continue the
795
01:12:45,890 --> 01:12:53,150
conversation we can meet there at 8:15?
GdB: 8:15 to 9:15. We're not dodging your
796
01:12:53,150 --> 01:12:59,500
question or we're just going to move it to
that meetup. I hope that's okay. As we
797
01:12:59,500 --> 01:13:02,530
have run over time. But I would like to end
maybe with a little bit of a closing
798
01:13:02,530 --> 01:13:08,941
round, because I think this came out of a
number of statements that you made, on
799
01:13:08,941 --> 01:13:14,700
your specific and of course work as a
leader of the open source community, which
800
01:13:14,700 --> 01:13:18,940
is on shared resources. So you mentioned
that a lot of times you're putting your
801
01:13:18,940 --> 01:13:23,500
resources out there and they're out there
for other people to share and learn from.
802
01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:28,460
I'd be interested and a little bit of
closing round of either recommendations,
803
01:13:28,460 --> 01:13:32,770
reading recommendations, places to go look
for further information, maybe places
804
01:13:32,770 --> 01:13:36,480
where you can be publishing your research.
But although the question of connecting
805
01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:40,060
like how do we strengthen each other's
work. Not just by coming together at
806
01:13:40,060 --> 01:13:44,580
conferences like this but by making our
knowledge open and sharing it and perhaps
807
01:13:44,580 --> 01:13:48,980
also exchanging experiences with one
another. So if maybe you want to leave
808
01:13:48,980 --> 01:13:53,630
with an idea or a recommendation, or a
point of inspiration, or question on that
809
01:13:53,630 --> 01:13:56,900
issue. Let's do a quick round. You want to
start?
810
01:13:56,900 --> 01:14:02,190
Em: So we're quite lucky in the UK that we
have the UK Hackspace Foundation which is
811
01:14:02,190 --> 01:14:07,460
a kind of Umbrella group for the [not
understandable] hackerspaces in the UK and
812
01:14:07,460 --> 01:14:12,500
these kind of organisations can be great
for raising discussions about these
813
01:14:12,500 --> 01:14:17,920
topics. I'm really pushing to have more of
focus on inclusivity and diversity in the
814
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,270
UK Hackspace Foundation at the moment and
that can be a way of kind of funnelling
815
01:14:21,270 --> 01:14:25,040
best practices out through all of the
member organizations.
816
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:29,900
GdB: Thank you.
Lena: I think for us it's we really focus
817
01:14:29,900 --> 01:14:35,330
on, like you mentioned as well, the
personal connection. So yeah we would of
818
01:14:35,330 --> 01:14:38,250
course prefer that you visit us for
coctails and code, and I think there are a
819
01:14:38,250 --> 01:14:46,001
lot of almost.. I think in the bigger
cities you will find of feminist or women
820
01:14:46,001 --> 01:14:51,100
only or women and non binary people only
spaces. And if there is none, maybe then
821
01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:55,420
you should found one. Because I think it's
really important and I think it happens a
822
01:14:55,420 --> 01:14:59,030
lot through personal connections.
GdB: Thank you, Lena.
823
01:14:59,030 --> 01:15:03,080
Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So it is something
you all are welcome at our open source
824
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:08,580
hotel in Vietnam now if you ever want to
visit and welcome at any FOSS Asia events.
825
01:15:08,580 --> 01:15:16,150
At the same time I think that we could
share our best practices and the
826
01:15:16,150 --> 01:15:20,270
successful story on our website. So
whatever the FOSS Asia developed and what
827
01:15:20,270 --> 01:15:23,980
we do we publish everything. I think that
is a good way to share resources with
828
01:15:23,980 --> 01:15:29,260
other communities. And a panel discussion
is always good to learn and to continue
829
01:15:29,260 --> 01:15:32,190
the conversation.
GdB: It's definitely good moment with you
830
01:15:32,190 --> 01:15:35,190
guys. Sarah.
Le Reset speaker (right): There is only
831
01:15:35,190 --> 01:15:39,170
one thing to do is to go to our Wiki. We
have all the resources that you need, in
832
01:15:39,170 --> 01:15:41,170
French.
laughing
833
01:15:41,170 --> 01:15:50,490
Hong Phug Dang: Our website is in English
laughingapplause
834
01:15:50,490 --> 01:15:55,540
Le Reset speaker (right): So yeah, we will
try. As after this conference and this as
835
01:15:55,540 --> 01:16:00,020
I say we will try to put the video on our
Wiki with a page with all the references
836
01:16:00,020 --> 01:16:04,450
as we do usually in French and so we will
do it in English this time. So you should
837
01:16:04,450 --> 01:16:11,400
find it in a few days on our Wiki which is
Wiki.LeReset.org.
838
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:15,750
GdB: Excellent.
applause
839
01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:20,210
GdB: I would like to thank you all for
hanging in such great ideas for this event
840
01:16:20,210 --> 01:16:24,740
for sitting on this panel and sharing your
thoughts and experiences. Thank you Azam.
841
01:16:24,740 --> 01:16:28,789
Thank you Sarah. Thank you Hong. Thank you
Lena. Thank you Em. For being part of the
842
01:16:28,789 --> 01:16:33,360
session. Thank you all for attending and
your inputs and ideas as well. And let's
843
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:36,120
say a big thank you to the stage host and
the translators for doing a wonderful job
844
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:37,660
as well.
845
01:16:37,660 --> 01:16:40,913
applause
846
01:16:40,913 --> 01:16:42,920
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847
01:16:42,920 --> 01:17:05,000
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