0:00:00.000,0:00:17.060
35C3 preroll music
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Herald: I will now hand over the[br]microphone to our moderator, Geraldine De
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Bastion, who apart from the French name[br]does not speak French.
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Thank you very much.
0:00:30.730,0:00:31.580
laughter
0:00:31.580,0:00:34.220
Geraldine De Bastion: Thank you so much[br]for having me here and hopefully enough
0:00:34.220,0:00:38.440
English to moderate the session. Hi[br]everybody. My name is Geraldine and I'm
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very proud to be moderating this session.[br]Maybe a few words to kick off with;
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usually sessions at CCC come together[br]because one person or team of people hand
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in a topic that they feel they would like[br]to talk about here on one of these stages.
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This session came together because several[br]people handed in sessions where they
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wanted to address how they're trying to[br]build communities or spaces that are
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specifically feminist, diverse, and[br]inclusive. And we thought it would be a
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great idea to give not just one person who[br]handed in a session, or two people, but
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all the people who handed in sessions on[br]this topic the stage. So this is how the
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session came together: by us grouping[br]together different submissions on the
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topic. And so I'm very happy that we have[br]five very interesting and excellent humans
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here to speak on the topic matter and will[br]be presenting their different approaches
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and their different strategies to building[br]feminist spaces and communities. And I'd
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like to welcome them here on stage. So[br]first off we have Hong Phuc who runs FOSS
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Asia, which is a community in[br]Asia/Southeast Asia for developing
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software and hardware specifically open[br]source. Welcome Hong!
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applause
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GdB: We have Azam and Sarah from Le RESET, [br]which is a feminist
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queer hackerspace.
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applause
0:02:09.670,0:02:15.250
GdB: Welcome! We have Em O'Sullivan former[br]hackerspace and maker fair organizer, now
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researching how to improve women and non[br]binary people's engagement in maker a
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spaces. Welcome Em!
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applause
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GdB: And last but not least we have Lena[br]Mohr, who is a UX designer from Stuttgart,
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started an initiative called Ready to[br]Code, teaching young girls to code.
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Welcome Lena.
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applause
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GdB: And as I said, my name is Geraldine[br]de Bastion. I run a community called the
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Global Innovation Gathering, which is a[br]network of different maker spaces, hacker
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spaces, different kind of innovation,[br]makers and innovators across the world. So
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a quick housekeeping note for the session.[br]The format is that we're going to give
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each of the teams here on stage the[br]opportunity to present their work to you
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in about seven to 10 minutes, and then[br]we'll get to gather here to discuss the
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difference and the likenesses in[br]approaches and in perspectives,
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experiences and ideas. And then we would[br]like to invite you all to join this
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discussion and open the floor. So to kick[br]things off I would invite you first to
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share a little bit the story of FOSS Asia[br]and your work at the last 10 years, Hong.
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Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. I did not[br]expect that I would go first, but that's
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okay.[br]shuffling
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There we go.
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Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so hello everyone![br]My name is Hong Phuc Dang, or HP Dang if
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you want to look for me on the web. So[br]today I will talk about how I get involved
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in open source community in the first[br]place, and also some highlights of my work
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at FOSS Asia during the past 10 years.[br]Before that a little bit about my
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background. I was born and grew up in a[br]small town in South Vietnam. It is called
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Can Tho, I don't know if any of you have[br]been there before, but it's about 200
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kilometers south of Hoh Chi Minh City.[br]This is my first 20 years of my life, so
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I've been always there, feel like a[br]confusing little girl because I keep
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wondering what I really want to achieve in[br]my life. My family, my parents were not
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so... were poor at that time. In 1987,[br]most of the families there were poor due
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to the war. We just finished the war and[br]then the reform of Vietnam. My parents
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been working very hard so that me and my[br]sister could have a better future. And the
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only motivation that I have in my life[br]until I was 20: to get a very good job
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somewhere after graduation, so that I can[br]earn some money, take care of my parents,
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and be able to afford something that I[br]could never have when I was a kid. So this
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is what I was thinking when I got to 20[br]years old. I went to school, I studied
0:05:37.590,0:05:40.870
super super hard but I never had really[br]interested in school and I also don't
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understand so much what I learn and get[br]out of school. I just know that if I study
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hard I would have a good future. In 2007 I[br]met Mario Behling who later on became my
0:05:53.360,0:06:01.150
mentor and also a partner later on. Not on[br]Tinder, but at a free event, a free
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technology event in Hanoi. In 2007 it was[br]the first time I learned about free
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software. In the same year, I switched[br]from Windows XP to Ubuntu and started to
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use open source. And then so I started to[br]involve with different user groups in the
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region, and also contribute small bits,[br]like localization into some software
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project. At the same time I also learned[br]how to submit a bug report, make an issue
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to different projects. And by involving in[br]the open source community I got to meet so
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many interesting people that inspire me.[br]So I always have very cool conversation
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with people who've been involved in one[br]project for over 15, 20 years. That really
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inspired me, how people can be so[br]persistent and continuously work on
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something for so long. And when they talk[br]about their job, is so positive and
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energetic. Even though it keeps repeating,[br]but they're very patient and when I joined
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the community it's so good that people[br]always like very patient and took their
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time to explain to you when you don't[br]understand something. So two years later
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in 2009, Mario and I decided to found the[br]FOSS Asia organization. So FOSS Asia, the
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goal of FOSS Asia is to bring together an[br]inspired community across Asia, a lot of
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different communities to view a better[br]future with open technologies. Since then
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we have developed so many different[br]projects with the FOSS Asia communities.
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These are some of the software and also[br]hardware projects that we've been working
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on. SUSI.AI is an alternative to Alexa or[br]Google Home, and Pocket Science Lab is our
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newly released open hardware project. You[br]can find all the projects on Github of
0:07:50.430,0:07:54.400
FOSS Asia actually. Eventyay is an event[br]solution that's similar to what you have
0:07:54.400,0:07:59.169
here, the[unclear][???], just scheduling[br]and also ticket selling open source did
0:07:59.169,0:08:05.770
entirely by the FOSS Asia community. We[br]also organize a lot of events, conferences
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and meet-ups throughout our regions. One[br]of our biggest events is the FOSS Asia
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Summit, happens every year in March in[br]Singapore. Throughout the year we also
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have smaller workshops and events in[br]China, in India, Vietnam, Indonesia,
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Malaysia and many other places. Some of[br]the highlights of my last 10 years. In
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2010 it was my first time into Europe. It[br]was so difficult to get a visa to come
0:08:32.270,0:08:36.159
here. I know, for many of you, but it was[br]a big thing for me to enter Europe for the
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first time. I got invited to the Libre[br]Graphics meeting. This is the photo taken
0:08:41.860,0:08:46.929
when I was giving a talk. You can see it,[br]I was super nervous at that time. And the
0:08:46.929,0:08:50.040
next picture, after the talk I went to[br]dinner with a group of friends, the people
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from the Libre Graphics communities. I was[br]the only girl but I did not realize that
0:08:54.360,0:08:58.189
until somebody comment on my Facebook, why[br]you was the only girl in the picture. But
0:08:58.189,0:09:06.949
it was really cool and very welcoming in[br]the community. 2012 we built a hotel in
0:09:06.949,0:09:14.029
our hometown Can Tho, and we labelled it[br]the Open Source hotel. You can look up,
0:09:14.029,0:09:19.879
Hotel Xoai is the name of the place. So[br]basically it's built by the Open Source
0:09:19.879,0:09:27.059
community member. So we set up the[br]wireless network with OpenWRT. I did
0:09:27.059,0:09:31.110
the entire wiring for the telephone[br]myself. I did it for three weeks but I was
0:09:31.110,0:09:36.870
very proud of it and we have the[br]declaration inside the hotel is donated to
0:09:36.870,0:09:42.170
us by the Libre Graphics community, so by[br]some artists in that community. And in
0:09:42.170,0:09:46.959
this space we hosted a lot of workshops[br]and we hosted many open source
0:09:46.959,0:09:51.940
contributors in our place. So we have dDebian[br]developers, we have GIMP contributers, we
0:09:51.940,0:09:56.610
have people from all over the world to[br]come and stay with us in this space here
0:09:56.610,0:10:03.220
in Vietnam. In the same year I also hosted[br]the group of artists and designers that I
0:10:03.220,0:10:09.439
met in Brussels in 2010 in Hoh Chi Minh[br]City. So we did an open source design week
0:10:09.439,0:10:19.300
in Saigon, and surprisingly more than 40%[br]of the participants are female. So what we
0:10:19.300,0:10:24.319
did in this design week, we showed people[br]how to make artwork with free tools, with
0:10:24.319,0:10:30.280
free software, and at the end we also made[br]an exhibition, what kind of work that you
0:10:30.280,0:10:38.550
can do with free software. And 2014 it was[br]my first time attending the CCC, and this
0:10:38.550,0:10:44.329
is the first person that I met in the[br]speaker room, who spend several minutes of
0:10:44.329,0:10:47.489
his valuable time to explain to me what is[br]the difference between free software and
0:10:47.489,0:10:49.099
open source.
0:10:49.099,0:10:50.189
laughter
0:10:50.189,0:10:54.440
Hong Phuc Dang: But I was very happy I was[br]also a speaker at that time, so we got a
0:10:54.440,0:11:02.350
photo together. 2016 we launch Code Heat[br]Program, which is an online coding
0:11:02.350,0:11:07.350
programme done by the FOSS Asia community.[br]So the goal of this program is to help
0:11:07.350,0:11:12.269
young developers and contributors to start[br]to work in open source software and how to
0:11:12.269,0:11:17.800
become an active contributor to open[br]source. So we have our FOSS Asia members
0:11:17.800,0:11:21.230
to guide them, so everything happenes on[br]GitHub, we have GitHub channels where
0:11:21.230,0:11:27.529
people can post questions. And at the end[br]the winners will win a trip to the FOSS
0:11:27.529,0:11:32.519
Asia Summit and present about their[br]working experience during the programme.
0:11:32.519,0:11:39.800
2018. So we released our Pocket Science[br]Lab to the market. So the project been
0:11:39.800,0:11:46.239
going on for the past two years and we[br]will finally produce them in China and now
0:11:46.239,0:11:52.470
started to distribute them all over the[br]world. So we have a shop in Japan which
0:11:52.470,0:11:58.480
has sold out in two days. We also[br]distributed in India, in Singapore, in
0:11:58.480,0:12:03.259
Europe and it's been piloting in school in[br]Singapore, in India and also in Vietnam.
0:12:03.259,0:12:08.569
So basically it's a small device that[br]helps you to make science experiments.
0:12:08.569,0:12:14.899
It's an oscilloscope with logic analyzer and[br]many different functions. We have a
0:12:14.899,0:12:21.700
workshop here as well at the CCC if you[br]want to find out more. Okay some of my
0:12:21.700,0:12:26.769
approach and lesson learned for the[br]question about what strategy that you do
0:12:26.769,0:12:31.290
to engage many people in the community and[br]how to rear the communitiy. So what I
0:12:31.290,0:12:36.360
learned from the past 10 years: The first[br]thing is to be sincere with whoever you
0:12:36.360,0:12:42.600
meet. That how my reaction in the[br]community to be sincere with people, and
0:12:42.600,0:12:47.279
empower the people in the community. Just[br]like when I first joined the community,
0:12:47.279,0:12:52.269
the more responsibility to give to people,[br]they feel empower and they, it's also
0:12:52.269,0:12:57.160
better to scale up the community.[br]Motivation; in order to work with people
0:12:57.160,0:13:00.939
and to find the right approach you need to[br]understand the motivation behind
0:13:00.939,0:13:08.790
individuals and it's really important to[br]rear the community. And my philosophy is
0:13:08.790,0:13:12.509
it always better by sharing. So we share[br]our knowledge, that what's the reason we
0:13:12.509,0:13:19.019
are here – we share our resources and we[br]bring people together. Finally, in the
0:13:19.019,0:13:23.899
FOSS Asia community, I made friends. Their[br]friendship is important over the years and
0:13:23.899,0:13:27.569
I know that the people I've been working[br]with or engaged with will be friends for
0:13:27.569,0:13:34.079
life – so that is a good thing about the[br]free software community. And next year
0:13:34.079,0:13:40.069
2009 will be our 10-year milestone of the[br]FOSS Asia organization. We have a big
0:13:40.069,0:13:43.929
celebration in Singapore between March 14[br]and 17. If you happen to be there or you
0:13:43.929,0:13:51.249
plan a trip to Asia you are very welcome[br]to join us. The website 2019.fossasia.org.
0:13:51.249,0:13:56.239
And here at the CCC we have a group of[br]FOSS Asia member flew in from Singapore,
0:13:56.239,0:14:01.639
from France, from Spain and also in[br]Germany. We have a laser cutter here,
0:14:01.639,0:14:07.650
built by a FOSS Asia member in Singapore,[br]open source laser cutter. The small
0:14:07.650,0:14:12.220
picture here is [???] carrying it and is[br]at our FOSS Asia assembly if you want to
0:14:12.220,0:14:18.720
check it out. If you want to get in touch[br]with us, or you want to look for me at the
0:14:18.720,0:14:24.639
end of the talk, you can search on the[br]navigation app for FOSS Asia and our
0:14:24.639,0:14:31.439
number is a 8575. Thank you.
0:14:31.439,0:14:36.329
applause
0:14:36.329,0:14:40.309
GdB: Thank you very much Hong for that[br]introduction into FOSS Asia and your work.
0:14:40.309,0:14:44.151
Azam, Sarah, would[br]you like to go next to present Le RESET?
0:14:44.151,0:14:52.129
Le Reset speaker (left): Okay so we both[br]come from France. We are part of Le RESET,
0:14:52.129,0:15:00.159
which is a feminist and queer hacker space[br]and we're going to explain a little bit
0:15:00.159,0:15:10.089
what we are doing, why we're doing it and[br]how. So our hacker space welcomes actively
0:15:10.089,0:15:18.439
people who usually do not feel safe or[br]included in many other hacker spaces. So
0:15:18.439,0:15:28.429
mostly queer persons and women, because[br]most of straight men feel really entitled
0:15:28.429,0:15:36.929
to learn and share what they learn and[br]teach everything. And on the other side
0:15:36.929,0:15:43.120
you have queer persons and women who have[br]major imposter syndrome when it comes to
0:15:43.120,0:15:52.769
technology. We observe these things and[br]also that the solutions to fix all issues
0:15:52.769,0:16:02.269
are also designed by straight men so they[br]are not adequate with our issues and that
0:16:02.269,0:16:08.660
we have a big lack of transmission in our[br]communities. So as we were to the geeky
0:16:08.660,0:16:15.569
ones around queers and queer ones around[br]geeks we did Le RESET to have a space that
0:16:15.569,0:16:21.699
is the intersection of queer and geek[br]people. So it takes place in a queer bar
0:16:21.699,0:16:37.449
in Paris every Sunday. And I'm really[br]scared, I'm sorry. We started in 2016 and
0:16:37.449,0:16:44.970
we speak directly to women and queers so[br]that they feel welcome and included and
0:16:44.970,0:16:52.419
would come to our space. We built a code[br]of conduct that we may discuss further,
0:16:52.419,0:17:07.020
that we embody so we endorse it and not[br]just write it somewhere. So our basis are
0:17:07.020,0:17:14.199
feminist ethics based on the "Ethics of[br]Care" by Joan Tronto. We do workshops for
0:17:14.199,0:17:22.150
beginners every session and we really[br]insist on the things for beginners. The
0:17:22.150,0:17:28.170
workshops are mainly hosted by queer or[br]women and we do not treat differently
0:17:28.170,0:17:36.990
infosec, coding, gaming, crafts, care[br]practice and all the things we do not make
0:17:36.990,0:17:45.280
a hierarchy. We analyzed the board[br]dynamics with material feminism and
0:17:45.280,0:17:50.370
most of our projects are cyber feminists.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): So I'm going to
0:17:50.370,0:17:54.870
talk a little more about some projects[br]that we have at Le Reset, what is it, so I
0:17:54.870,0:18:00.290
took three different examples. The best[br]example is the crypto bar. So it's
0:18:00.290,0:18:07.390
basically a one on one crypto party with[br]just one person as they were launched by
0:18:07.390,0:18:14.380
Asher Wolf and those security talks, they[br]are menu oriented toward cyber harassment
0:18:14.380,0:18:20.890
because women and queer people usually ask[br]us about security issues when they have
0:18:20.890,0:18:25.020
trouble with cyber harassment. And so we[br]have identified it to be the main threat
0:18:25.020,0:18:32.130
model for us, and not like the NSA or[br]something else. Another example of a
0:18:32.130,0:18:38.420
project that we have is "everything about[br]health reappropriation". So as women and
0:18:38.420,0:18:44.010
queers our health is often in the hands of[br]doctors that don't explain stuff to us or
0:18:44.010,0:18:48.020
that don't do what we want them to do with[br]our health because they have norms that
0:18:48.020,0:18:54.520
we're supposed to follow. And so we work[br]around. We work with transgender people
0:18:54.520,0:19:01.640
around hormones and also with trans people[br]and women around gynecology. And so we
0:19:01.640,0:19:09.290
have a partnership with women doing self[br]gynecology workshops. So we create zines
0:19:09.290,0:19:14.500
and we share knowledge and practices about[br]those and we also have a lab project that
0:19:14.500,0:19:19.330
is inspired by the je ne peine club from[br]Calafou and also by
0:19:19.330,0:19:23.690
the Open Source estrogen project by Mary[br]Maggic that was presented in the CCC last
0:19:23.690,0:19:27.030
year [https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9036-ope[br]n_source_estrogen]. And so the goal of
0:19:27.030,0:19:31.120
this lab project is to take and analyze[br]our own cervical smear so that we can do
0:19:31.120,0:19:37.390
an our own analysis with it. And the third[br]project I wanted to talk about was "the
0:19:37.390,0:19:41.130
queer games". So the queer games is an[br]artistic and political movement that was
0:19:41.130,0:19:45.510
initiated by an Entrepeneur Mattie[br]Brice. So the idea is that they're using
0:19:45.510,0:19:49.890
game design as a tool to criticize[br]oppression systems. And so we're doing
0:19:49.890,0:19:56.160
monthly queer games workshops in order to[br]empower queer people. We empower them
0:19:56.160,0:19:59.690
through rendering our own narratives[br]visible through video games and also by
0:19:59.690,0:20:04.751
learning skills to make our own video[br]games, even though most people who come
0:20:04.751,0:20:12.190
don't have any idea of how to code, so we[br]also learn coding through it.
0:20:12.190,0:20:22.350
GdB: Thank you very much[br]applause
0:20:22.350,0:20:25.522
GdB: Thank you for that introduction into[br]your work. I think a lot of points raised
0:20:25.522,0:20:30.212
that we're gonna debate also in a minute.[br]Em, can I ask you to go next.
0:20:36.292,0:20:40.850
Em O'Sullivan: I didn't have any slides[br]but I do have some notes and my story is
0:20:40.850,0:20:45.231
maybe a bit different to my other[br]panelists because I don't come from a
0:20:45.231,0:20:50.920
specifically feminist organization. I live[br]in Brighton in the UK and our hackerspace
0:20:50.920,0:20:56.310
is called Build Brighton. It started in[br]2009 so it was a fairly early hackerspace
0:20:56.310,0:21:02.370
in the UK. It grew out of an existing[br]meetup that was focused on robotics and
0:21:02.370,0:21:06.620
some of the people involved in that group[br]decided to set up their own hackerspace.
0:21:06.620,0:21:12.630
So it began fairly organically. It was[br]inspired largely by the early U.S. hacker
0:21:12.630,0:21:18.610
spaces in particular Mitch Altman visited[br]the robotics meetup when he was in
0:21:18.610,0:21:22.420
Brighton and basically said, "hey you look[br]like the kind of group who should start a
0:21:22.420,0:21:28.450
hackerspace" and that kind of triggered[br]the idea to go and set one up. So, it
0:21:28.450,0:21:33.750
followed the same kind of ad hoc kind of[br]democracy structure. It had some informal
0:21:33.750,0:21:40.170
leaders but things were kind of largely[br]decided by group consensus. For example
0:21:40.170,0:21:45.390
when we first moved into our own dedicated[br]space, we spent the first couple of years
0:21:45.390,0:21:50.030
meeting once a week in a coworking space[br]and then in 2011 had an opportunity to get
0:21:50.030,0:21:53.871
our own workshop and the decision about[br]whether to do that was put to the entire
0:21:53.871,0:21:57.630
membership around whether we wanted to[br]take on that responsibility, those extra
0:21:57.630,0:22:01.840
costs and that decision was passed by[br]consensus and that's kind of how things
0:22:01.840,0:22:07.250
have typically been done. In terms of[br]activities there's a lot of electronics
0:22:07.250,0:22:12.280
projects typically, especially with it[br]going out to robotics group. The laser
0:22:12.280,0:22:15.380
cutter has always been really popular and[br]was one of the first tools that was bought
0:22:15.380,0:22:19.450
by the group. And we've recently had lots[br]of wood work workers coming in because we
0:22:19.450,0:22:24.770
do have a fairly well-developed wood[br]working shop. In terms of gender diversity
0:22:24.770,0:22:30.500
is also a fairly typical hackerspace.[br]There's currently 115 members of which
0:22:30.500,0:22:36.670
around 10 to 15 percent are women or femme[br]presenting people and the aim of that
0:22:36.670,0:22:40.890
statistic isn't to point out like how low[br]this representation is in this particular
0:22:40.890,0:22:47.690
space. It's to highlight that this is a[br]typical number for a hackerspace. For me
0:22:47.690,0:22:53.060
personally, a bit like Hong Phuc said, I'm[br]used to being in masculine spaces like I
0:22:53.060,0:22:58.940
trained in media production originally[br]which is very male dominated. Then when I
0:22:58.940,0:23:04.970
went to work in IT it was normal for me to[br]be at events that were mainly men and I
0:23:04.970,0:23:10.680
suppose I just got used to this and it[br]became invisible to me. At the time I was
0:23:10.680,0:23:14.720
working for a software development company[br]in Brighton and the company had two
0:23:14.720,0:23:19.750
offices one for the technical team and one[br]for the rest of the staff. So like admin
0:23:19.750,0:23:25.770
team, production team, HR, finance and so[br]on. My desk was in the tech room and I
0:23:25.770,0:23:29.520
looked up one day and realized that I was[br]the only femme presenting person in a room
0:23:29.520,0:23:36.470
of 20 men. It took that to kind of dropped[br]me back into realizing how weird the
0:23:36.470,0:23:41.820
situation was and I also realized that[br]"Build Brighton", my hackspace, was a
0:23:41.820,0:23:47.620
similar environments as well. And I became[br]really interested in why this was
0:23:47.620,0:23:52.710
happening, because hacker spaces they are[br]theoretically open environments, like our
0:23:52.710,0:23:58.300
space anyone can join. Membership is on a[br]pay what you can basis from five pounds a
0:23:58.300,0:24:03.790
month. So the financial cost to entry are[br]very low. But we are still seeing the same
0:24:03.790,0:24:08.860
issues as in other technology environments[br]and that's women and femme people were
0:24:08.860,0:24:16.430
very underrepresented. I saw this as a[br]useful opportunity to look at the cultural
0:24:16.430,0:24:21.860
issues that continue to prevent women's[br]engagement in technology spaces even when
0:24:21.860,0:24:27.460
some of those structural and financial[br]barriers have been removed. And the reason
0:24:27.460,0:24:31.830
this was really important to me as a topic[br]was because like for me personally joining
0:24:31.830,0:24:36.960
my hackerspace was an extremely empowering[br]experience. I didn't have much experience
0:24:36.960,0:24:41.700
before with DIY, with hardware, with[br]working with materials, and joining that
0:24:41.700,0:24:46.000
community and having access to those tools[br]and that knowledge had a huge impact on
0:24:46.000,0:24:51.140
how I see the world around me, on my[br]confidence to fix and adapt things when I
0:24:51.140,0:24:56.160
need to and I really want more people to[br]have access to that empowerment.
0:24:56.160,0:25:01.080
Especially people who don't necessarily[br]have existing experience with technology.
0:25:01.080,0:25:07.770
So in 2016 I began my PhD looking at how[br]some hacker spaces and maker spaces have
0:25:07.770,0:25:11.880
been more successful than others in[br]engaging women and femme people. I'm
0:25:11.880,0:25:15.950
currently still in the data collection[br]phase of my research, but I visited
0:25:15.950,0:25:20.360
various hacker spaces and maker spaces[br]around Europe and the US, spoken to lots
0:25:20.360,0:25:25.720
of people from these spaces and seen a[br]wide range of approaches to dealing with
0:25:25.720,0:25:33.360
gender diversity, ranging from acute[br]hostility towards any suggestion of
0:25:33.360,0:25:37.350
specifically trying to engage women, right[br]through to spaces that have made this a
0:25:37.350,0:25:42.711
core part of that group culture. So I hope[br]that range of perspectives can come in
0:25:42.711,0:25:48.190
useful to discussion today. And I'm also[br]currently putting together a zine with
0:25:48.190,0:25:52.540
contributions from hacker spaces and maker[br]spaces that have developed inclusive
0:25:52.540,0:25:57.210
practices, not necessarily focused on[br]gender but also on engaging other
0:25:57.210,0:26:02.150
underrepresented groups like people of[br]color, people with disabilities, people
0:26:02.150,0:26:07.350
with lower socio economic statuses because[br]I think it's really important that those
0:26:07.350,0:26:11.510
practices are publicized as widely as[br]possible so that other spaces can learn
0:26:11.510,0:26:15.400
from them. So if any of you have any[br]suggestions about spaces that should be
0:26:15.400,0:26:22.450
included in that zine please do email me.[br]My contact details are on the Fahrplan and
0:26:22.450,0:26:32.890
I would love to hear about any spaces that[br]you could recommend.
0:26:32.890,0:26:42.550
GdB: Thank you! And last but not least Lena.[br]Lena Mohr: I'm Lena, I'm one of the three
0:26:42.550,0:26:47.390
founders of "ready to code". We are an[br]organization based based in Stuttgart in
0:26:47.390,0:26:56.500
the south of Germany. Our story started...[br]so know first what we do is we inspire
0:26:56.500,0:27:01.220
women and girls to learn how to code and[br]to work in tech and support each other.
0:27:01.220,0:27:06.821
There are two main reasons why we do what[br]we do. I think the first one is quite
0:27:06.821,0:27:12.340
obvious that there are not enough women[br]who work in tech, and the second one is
0:27:12.340,0:27:17.010
more personal because I am a user[br]experience designer, and part of my
0:27:17.010,0:27:21.440
studies was learning how to code and I[br]found it extremely difficult because I had
0:27:21.440,0:27:27.440
all these biases and pictures in my head[br]and I just knew that I was going to fail
0:27:27.440,0:27:34.270
at coding before I ever wrote my first[br]line of code. I was not alone with this. I
0:27:34.270,0:27:42.130
saw this and a lot of my friends and a lot[br]of the girls who studied with me. And the
0:27:42.130,0:27:47.150
good news is that we had to pass the exam[br]so we sort of had to learn it. and I also
0:27:47.150,0:27:54.030
had really great and really patient[br]friends who not only taught me to code and
0:27:54.030,0:27:59.809
taught me the facts but also convinced me[br]that I was able to do that. And the moment
0:27:59.809,0:28:04.630
when you clicked like you said that was a[br]really empowering moment, because I felt
0:28:04.630,0:28:10.540
like the not only the knowledge opened a[br]whole new world of opportunities, but also
0:28:10.540,0:28:15.309
the self-confidence that I gained through[br]that. And that is what we also want to
0:28:15.309,0:28:23.130
share with other women and girls. So what[br]we do is we run workshops for women and
0:28:23.130,0:28:30.710
for girls and like Le Reset we make sure[br]that they are for a beginner so everyone
0:28:30.710,0:28:34.610
can participate, and I think we're[br]probably going to talk about that as well
0:28:34.610,0:28:41.300
a little bit further. And we also have a[br]networking event that's called cocktails
0:28:41.300,0:28:48.550
and code where women in tech can meet and[br]connect and share their experiences and we
0:28:48.550,0:28:52.540
organize lightning talks from female[br]speakers so yeah people who are new to
0:28:52.540,0:28:59.830
tech can come and it's fairly low level[br]and everyone can participate. And we also
0:28:59.830,0:29:03.910
organize different events. For example a[br]couple of weeks ago we organized a social
0:29:03.910,0:29:10.180
hackathon on and I think what we do a[br]little bit different is that one of our
0:29:10.180,0:29:18.290
founders is a guy, a straight cis guy. So[br]a lot of the volunteers that are working
0:29:18.290,0:29:25.970
for us are also male and we had a lot of[br]good experiences with this because we
0:29:25.970,0:29:30.011
think it's important to include everyone.[br]But we talked a little bit before and I
0:29:30.011,0:29:34.350
think we're going to have a discussion[br]about that afterwards as well, that a lot
0:29:34.350,0:29:41.010
of women who come to us are also looking[br]for females only space, so they really
0:29:41.010,0:29:46.290
appreciate a safer space where they can[br]just be around other women.
0:29:46.290,0:29:59.350
GdB: Thank you very much, Lena. So as[br]you've heard we have very different work
0:29:59.350,0:30:03.920
rounds that say very different rooms of[br]experiences. And we'd like to just jump
0:30:03.920,0:30:07.630
right into discussion. We're going to take[br]about 15, 20 minutes to discuss a little
0:30:07.630,0:30:12.710
bit amongst ourselves before opening and[br]including all of you in the debate. So
0:30:12.710,0:30:18.490
let's pick up straight the point that you[br]closed with and I'd like you to join in
0:30:18.490,0:30:24.380
but I think I'll direct the question at[br]you first. Sometimes we have to, or it
0:30:24.380,0:30:29.721
seems that way, we'd have to be exclusive[br]in order to increase inclusion or
0:30:29.721,0:30:33.670
fairness. And if I understood you[br]correctly you've created a space that
0:30:33.670,0:30:39.772
doesn't necessarily exclude anybody but it[br]doesn't put straight men in the focus. Can
0:30:39.772,0:30:43.480
you explain a little bit exactly how you[br]try to shape that community that you're
0:30:43.480,0:30:48.480
working with and where you're where you[br]drew the line of inclusion and exclusion
0:30:48.480,0:30:55.210
in your approach.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): So we have a
0:30:55.210,0:30:59.580
code of conduct. Everybody is welcome to[br]come into hackerspace as long as they
0:30:59.580,0:31:07.030
apply to the code of conduct. So we are[br]open to everyone but everything that we
0:31:07.030,0:31:12.050
organize is directed to queer people and[br]women. So our communication is oriented
0:31:12.050,0:31:18.580
towards them. The workshops organized also[br]by queer people and women. So basically we
0:31:18.580,0:31:21.870
just don't care about straight men.[br]Gdb: But they can come.
0:31:21.870,0:31:31.864
Le Reset speaker (right): They can come.[br](laughter and applause)
0:31:31.864,0:31:32.970
Gdb: Lena you said one of your founders is
0:31:32.970,0:31:38.240
a straight man, so that's something that[br]you do that you do differently.
0:31:38.240,0:31:42.500
Lena: We just started a year ago so we are[br]also still trying our different
0:31:42.500,0:31:48.270
approaches. And I like what you said that,[br]I think you mentioned that they are
0:31:48.270,0:31:57.250
invited if they want to come but you're[br]not marketing for them. You saw our logo.
0:31:57.250,0:32:03.720
And in the first workshop that we ran for[br]kids we said it's only for girls. And the
0:32:03.720,0:32:07.620
second one we said we have reserving a[br]number of seats for girls because we want
0:32:07.620,0:32:13.380
to increase diversity and no boy signed[br]up. So from now on we're not even putting
0:32:13.380,0:32:19.710
it's only for girls on our flyers but[br]because it looks so girly no boys
0:32:19.710,0:32:23.820
interested in joining us apparently and I[br]think that's interesting because usually
0:32:23.820,0:32:29.400
it works the other way around so probably[br]subconsciously or unconsciously it's
0:32:29.400,0:32:37.210
posters or websites look like they're made[br]for boys or for guys and women don't feel
0:32:37.210,0:32:43.020
attrackted to it. And we do it the other[br]way around and it works quite well. But
0:32:43.020,0:32:47.610
yeah. But we also have men that are asking[br]us like "Oh we we also like cocktails and
0:32:47.610,0:32:53.999
code, Why can't we join?" And it's like[br]yeah of course you can. You're welcome. We
0:32:53.999,0:32:56.740
didn't have any negative experience with[br]it so far.
0:32:56.740,0:33:01.490
GdB [to Em O'Sullivan]: you're going to be[br]our academic sounding board at this panel.
0:33:01.490,0:33:05.830
In the research that you've conducted, do[br]you see certain kinds of trends emerging
0:33:05.830,0:33:13.370
or sort of maybe perhaps as a strength of[br]certain strategies of those hacker spaces
0:33:13.370,0:33:20.230
or communities or programs that try to[br]specifically target not straight men but
0:33:20.230,0:33:25.400
other communities. On the question of "how[br]exclusive do you have to be, to be
0:33:25.400,0:33:30.380
inclusive".[br]Em O'Sullivan: So, I've been to spaces
0:33:30.380,0:33:34.140
that are women only or women and non[br]binary people only, and they're really
0:33:34.140,0:33:39.890
important for getting over the question of[br]"is it just that women aren't interested"
0:33:39.890,0:33:43.510
which is something that I've encountered[br]in a few spaces. It's like well you know
0:33:43.510,0:33:46.670
we're not excluding women they just don't[br]seem to be interested. They're not coming
0:33:46.670,0:33:50.270
here. And then when you provide a women[br]only space and women go there, then you
0:33:50.270,0:33:53.390
can point to that and go: Well okay that's[br]just not true. That must be something
0:33:53.390,0:33:57.940
about these other spaces that isn't[br]including them. But then the next step is
0:33:57.940,0:34:03.000
how do you get that inclusion to work in[br]an all gender space. Because, we live in
0:34:03.000,0:34:07.770
an all gender world. And how do you it[br]take out of those safe spaces and take it
0:34:07.770,0:34:15.899
into other environments and that there[br]does need to be a specific aim to be
0:34:15.899,0:34:22.220
inclusive. It's interesting that you say[br]it's like, we don't exclude men. We just
0:34:22.220,0:34:28.961
kind of don't focus stuff on them. And[br]that seems to be the approach of maker
0:34:28.961,0:34:32.730
spaces, and hacker spaces in general.[br]Except there's no recognition of that.
0:34:32.730,0:34:35.549
There's that, well, we don't exclude[br]women. You know, they're just not here.
0:34:35.549,0:34:39.279
Like, they could come here and there's not[br]the recognition that all of their
0:34:39.279,0:34:43.329
presentation, like all of the their[br]culture, from the outside looks like it's
0:34:43.329,0:34:46.659
geared towards men. And so of course[br]that's the kind of people that they
0:34:46.659,0:34:50.519
attract. But yeah, they haven't made that[br]decision, it's just what they're doing and
0:34:50.519,0:34:55.519
there's no recognition of it. So yeah, to[br]change that there does have to be a
0:34:55.519,0:34:59.089
recognition that if you want to attract[br]people from different groups then you do
0:34:59.089,0:35:03.799
need to reach out and specifically engage[br]them. it's not going to just happen by
0:35:03.799,0:35:07.280
itself.[br]GdB: Thank you. Hong, how has it been for
0:35:07.280,0:35:13.920
you in the last 10 years of managing FOSS[br]Asia? Because, there's another level that
0:35:13.920,0:35:17.869
comes in. You do this across different[br]cultures and across different countries
0:35:17.869,0:35:23.829
within Southeast Asia. How do you find[br]that it's developed over the last 10
0:35:23.829,0:35:29.680
years, and how much do you have to put an[br]emphasis on trying to bring in not just
0:35:29.680,0:35:33.489
women, but perhaps also people from[br]different backgrounds into your community.
0:35:33.489,0:35:39.410
Hong Phuc Dang: So, if you look at[br]Southeast Asia, and I look at and FOSS
0:35:39.410,0:35:44.960
Asian community we find diverse and[br]inclusive. It would take forever to talk
0:35:44.960,0:35:48.960
about of different cultures from[br]Singapore, Malaysia. It's also related to
0:35:48.960,0:35:55.660
the religions and the culture of each[br]country. But, could I ask the Le RESET
0:35:55.660,0:36:01.440
hackerspace a question? I was curious. I[br]kind of have the same opinion with Em. I
0:36:01.440,0:36:07.470
was curious, was there any experience in[br]the past that motivated you to create a
0:36:07.470,0:36:13.740
base that or focus more on women instead[br]of men. Is there any bad experience, an
0:36:13.740,0:36:20.159
incident that occurred to you?[br]Le Reset speaker: Yes, of course.
0:36:20.159,0:36:23.539
Hong Phuc Dang: Could you share a little[br]bit about it? Because, I always say I,
0:36:23.539,0:36:28.230
fought it passive, you know that maybe I[br]was lucky, because in our community I
0:36:28.230,0:36:34.329
haven't experienced that much of a kind of[br]incident that make me feel that I need a
0:36:34.329,0:36:39.280
space for myself. Because when I joined[br]the open source community, I feel that
0:36:39.280,0:36:44.670
everyone's very welcome, and also people[br]don't look at you as who you are. People
0:36:44.670,0:36:47.983
always look at your work and your[br]contribution to the community. So,
0:36:47.983,0:36:51.140
sometimes you're in a conversation and you[br]don't even realize that you are with a
0:36:51.140,0:36:56.940
bunch of other people from Europe or men.[br]You focus on the topic, and the work that
0:36:56.940,0:37:02.384
you do. So I'm curious to learn about the[br]incident that you had before.
0:37:02.384,0:37:07.270
Le Reset speaker (left): I have a few[br]examples if you want, but I think it's not
0:37:07.270,0:37:12.091
about what you can do or not, that it's[br]about coming in the space and you feeling
0:37:12.091,0:37:19.880
that you can come here and stay and be[br]well welcomed. So, as a woman actually...
0:37:19.880,0:37:30.569
I'm sorry I'm a little sick. The people[br]were asking if I came with my boyfriend,
0:37:30.569,0:37:37.319
where he was. So, they were wondering what[br]I was doing here, because I was a woman.
0:37:37.319,0:37:42.499
So, sorry, I don't have any boyfriend,[br]will never have one, but many girlfriends.
0:37:42.499,0:37:53.559
So, no. And also, I was waiting to do lock[br]picking and waiting in the line to do
0:37:53.559,0:37:57.820
that. When I came to the tools the guy[br]said: Oh sorry, you have to leave the
0:37:57.820,0:38:04.716
place for the guy, because I was just here[br]to look not to try. Many things like that.
0:38:04.716,0:38:06.400
Hong Phuc Dang: Did that lock picking[br]happen here at a congress?
0:38:06.400,0:38:09.319
Le Reset speaker (left): Yeah, I know.[br]Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so now we know what
0:38:09.319,0:38:14.160
prevent women from joining the tech[br]community. So maybe it wasn't intentional?
0:38:14.160,0:38:18.200
GdB (to Hong Phuc Dang): So you, I mean I[br]think it's really interesting what you
0:38:18.200,0:38:21.060
said, when in your community and[br]experience you have you see the code and
0:38:21.060,0:38:25.770
not the gender. I think a lot of people[br]here in the room. I'm guessing it came to
0:38:25.770,0:38:28.809
the session but also on the panel have had[br]really different experiences, but of
0:38:28.809,0:38:33.619
course this is really positive here. Maybe[br]even a little bit surprising to hear,
0:38:33.619,0:38:40.480
because perhaps that would have been maybe[br]a stereotypical perception that in some
0:38:40.480,0:38:44.559
other societies which are part of[br]South/Southeast Asia the very traditional
0:38:44.559,0:38:50.200
and it's maybe not so typical for women to[br]be or people of different backgrounds.
0:38:50.200,0:38:52.890
Maybe, like I said not just women but also[br]people of different educational
0:38:52.890,0:38:55.960
backgrounds of different cultural[br]backgrounds to be part of this community.
0:38:55.960,0:39:01.589
But of course it's very nice to hear that[br]you've had a very different experience.
0:39:01.589,0:39:06.480
That's I think a keyword that we've heard[br]from many of you and you also mentioned
0:39:06.480,0:39:11.499
your core values is empowerment and[br]creating empowerment empowering
0:39:11.499,0:39:17.140
experiences for others. You've already[br]said a little bit about how you try to do
0:39:17.140,0:39:21.200
that and giving people space to create[br]their own narratives. Do you want to share
0:39:21.200,0:39:24.000
a little bit more, what have been like[br]successes for you were you noticed this
0:39:24.000,0:39:34.791
has been working for your commu nity.[br]Lena Mohr: Maybe I could start?
0:39:34.791,0:39:39.440
Le Reset speaker(right): Go on.[br]Lena Mohr: I think one of the women who
0:39:39.440,0:39:44.119
came to our meetup afterwards. She came to[br]us and she was really happy and she said
0:39:44.119,0:39:49.009
like: "Ok, I have a place where I can be[br]among my geek friends and talk about geeky
0:39:49.009,0:39:52.930
stuff and I have my feminist friends to[br]whom I can come and talk about feminist
0:39:52.930,0:39:58.190
stuff and but I never had both." So I have[br]friends and I think it's also important
0:39:58.190,0:40:01.450
that you mentioned that it wasn't it[br]probably wasn't intentional, when someone
0:40:01.450,0:40:04.950
asks you like: "Hey where's your[br]boyfriend?". Maybe it was trying to start
0:40:04.950,0:40:06.940
a conversation, but that doesn't make it[br]any better.
0:40:06.940,0:40:09.380
Le Reset speaker (left): I'm not sure,[br]but...
0:40:09.380,0:40:13.589
Lena Mohr: Ok, that's even...[br]GdB: Yeah, I mean I can also say like I
0:40:13.589,0:40:17.940
have the same experience regularly and[br]it's an... Even in spaces where I've been
0:40:17.940,0:40:25.500
member for years and that I really love[br]dearly and I think you know you sort of at
0:40:25.500,0:40:32.020
least me, past me I never try to take[br]offense, but of course it is offensive and
0:40:32.020,0:40:36.019
this is something we had a quick chat[br]about your level of tolerance for this.
0:40:36.019,0:40:42.820
The threshold of acceptance is for me at[br]least becomes less and less and I think we
0:40:42.820,0:40:47.390
had a quick conversation and one of the[br]keywords was patience. So, when you have
0:40:47.390,0:40:52.869
tried to sort of, yeah, already create[br]spaces that are different for communities
0:40:52.869,0:40:57.460
like all of ours that are different you[br]want... You know, you expect more
0:40:57.460,0:41:02.871
basically. Expect people to be better at[br]this game and things to change faster. So
0:41:02.871,0:41:05.420
I think the sort of level of frustration[br]that builds up when you find it is not
0:41:05.420,0:41:10.529
changing as you know just as you said in[br]your talk. It's shocking to hear that that
0:41:10.529,0:41:14.069
level of apprehension of including women[br]and doing things to actually really
0:41:14.069,0:41:18.920
support women coming in and making sure[br]all parts of society are equally
0:41:18.920,0:41:24.060
represented is still that strong. Do[br]you... Have you looked into like the "why"
0:41:24.060,0:41:26.650
a little bit in your research.[br]Em O'Sullivan: Like something that's
0:41:26.650,0:41:32.829
really interesting is that, in the absence[br]of groups like people with disabilities is
0:41:32.829,0:41:41.680
more readily seen as something that can be[br]helped by changing the space by
0:41:41.680,0:41:48.729
introducing kind of ramps, wheelchair[br]access technologies and rearranging the
0:41:48.729,0:41:52.650
space, so that it's more accessible. But[br]then when it comes to cultural aspects,
0:41:52.650,0:41:56.749
such as including women, that seen as[br]something that's unchangeable. So spaces
0:41:56.749,0:42:01.460
are often willing to change to be more[br]diverse, but they have kind of a mental
0:42:01.460,0:42:06.279
block on being able to include people like[br]women or people of color, who they see as
0:42:06.279,0:42:10.696
more kind of. There's no way that these[br]groups can come and join us. They're just
0:42:10.696,0:42:14.160
not interested and so like that's a very[br]unusual thing to see.
0:42:14.160,0:42:20.460
GdB: So you mentioned earlier, that you[br]have a code of conduct. And... and I think
0:42:20.460,0:42:24.290
that's, I'd love to hear like, how did you[br]develop this code of conduct for your
0:42:24.290,0:42:27.799
community? And is this sort of a living[br]thing? Did you come up with this in the
0:42:27.799,0:42:31.410
beginning and it's been set like that or[br]is it something that you revise and how do
0:42:31.410,0:42:35.299
you implement it?[br]Le Reset speaker (left): Actually it's a
0:42:35.299,0:42:42.519
really simple code of conduct with 10[br]phrases and sentences and it says not to
0:42:42.519,0:42:48.999
discriminate anybody and to respect[br]boundaries and things that are making us
0:42:48.999,0:42:57.740
all live together well. That's the[br]important thing is that we endorse it
0:42:57.740,0:43:08.200
really, so we put it on the walls. We talk[br]about it and we observe the dynamics into
0:43:08.200,0:43:16.999
the hackerspace. What do people do. How do[br]they feel we welcome them. We apply ethics
0:43:16.999,0:43:25.729
of care that do the things I was talking[br]about. We help people, but we do not do
0:43:25.729,0:43:30.809
things on their behalf. We do not speak[br]for the persons, but we are here to
0:43:30.809,0:43:34.680
support, if they need. That's how it[br]works.
0:43:34.680,0:43:38.569
GdB: So are there many cases, where you[br]find, you need to mediate or have you had
0:43:38.569,0:43:42.599
cases where you've had to exclude people[br]based on your code of conduct?
0:43:42.599,0:43:47.940
Le Reset speaker (right): We haven't[br]excluded many people, but we feel totally
0:43:47.940,0:43:54.190
fine with having to exclude someone, we're[br]not afraid of it. But usually we try to
0:43:54.190,0:44:00.660
talk to the person before we have to get[br]them out and remind them of the code of
0:44:00.660,0:44:08.819
conduct. Our code of conduct is something[br]that we have to apply, but it's also full
0:44:08.819,0:44:14.359
of keywords and so the idea is that every[br]time we're saying that organizing a
0:44:14.359,0:44:18.050
workshop or doing your conference we talk[br]about it and we tell people to read it
0:44:18.050,0:44:22.900
before they come. So that they also can[br]google the words that they don't know, so
0:44:22.900,0:44:28.380
that they come into hackerspace and they[br]know what it means to actually respect
0:44:28.380,0:44:35.420
somebodies pronouns or things like this.[br]GdB: So. How would you all balance sort of
0:44:35.420,0:44:40.539
the mission of what your space is about to[br]do and what your communities are there to
0:44:40.539,0:44:46.320
do in terms of creating safe space for the[br]people that you have as part of your
0:44:46.320,0:44:53.150
community and educating the rest of the[br]world.
0:44:53.150,0:45:03.900
Hong Phuc Dang: I can say something. So[br]code of conduct is a good way to ensure
0:45:03.900,0:45:10.050
that safe space for people. And in terms[br]of inclusiveness, so there, so I think
0:45:10.050,0:45:14.500
that in order to solve this problems at[br]first, is a good way that we bring people
0:45:14.500,0:45:19.509
together who can talk about the challenges[br]and incidents; that they had in the past
0:45:19.509,0:45:24.839
so that the people in the audience also[br]aware that they might not intentionally
0:45:24.839,0:45:29.819
raise this question. But now people aware[br]of what could be offense do to another
0:45:29.819,0:45:33.359
members. But I think one of the bigger[br]challenge is that the people in the
0:45:33.359,0:45:40.059
community sometimes people are not aware[br]of the level the difference of background
0:45:40.059,0:45:45.309
of different people in the community. For[br]instance, I want to give one example. So,
0:45:45.309,0:45:50.759
when you visit one of the hackersspace in[br]Singapore. Normally when you come in even
0:45:50.759,0:45:56.160
though this is your first time entered a[br]hackerspace, nobody would come and talk to
0:45:56.160,0:46:00.239
you, try to introduce to you to the space,[br]what other equipment is, because they
0:46:00.239,0:46:03.249
assumed that you already have the[br]knowledge. If you enter this, there's got
0:46:03.249,0:46:08.900
to be good you know everything. And[br]sometime I found a little bit intimidated
0:46:08.900,0:46:14.071
that I did not understand some joke that[br]make by my male colleagues, because they
0:46:14.071,0:46:19.210
have different kind of knowledge coming[br]from the west from Europe or America. So
0:46:19.210,0:46:22.700
it's very important that we are aware that[br]people coming from different backgrounds.
0:46:22.700,0:46:25.920
So something that you think that is so[br]obvious to you that might not be obvious
0:46:25.920,0:46:31.950
to people. And it might raise some kind of[br]conflict and misunderstanding. Something
0:46:31.950,0:46:36.779
if we are all aware, that piece of[br]knowledge we have might not be relevant to
0:46:36.779,0:46:45.460
another person and always be aware and be[br]more flexible, then that could be less
0:46:45.460,0:46:50.580
complex in the community in my opinion.[br]GdB: So again like I said
0:46:50.580,0:46:56.429
(applause)[br]GdB: you're free to applaud.
0:46:56.429,0:47:03.799
GdB: How do you try to balance that?[br]Le Reset speaker (right): We welcome
0:47:03.799,0:47:08.430
everybody that comes into this space.[br]We're here every Sunday, so we usually
0:47:08.430,0:47:12.630
know who has come before and who hasn't.[br]And every time we see a new person there
0:47:12.630,0:47:16.990
is always someone who comes and explain[br]the code of conduct, but also like: what
0:47:16.990,0:47:23.200
is this space, where you can find the[br]stickers, where is the workshop. So we
0:47:23.200,0:47:26.910
explain everything.[br]GdB: I think that sounds really nice. I
0:47:26.910,0:47:30.619
think from what you've explained there's a[br]lot of magic in that very personal
0:47:30.619,0:47:37.119
approach. You know, it's not that you're[br]like take them into your space when they
0:47:37.119,0:47:40.990
come in, but it's like this taking care of[br]each other and looking out for one
0:47:40.990,0:47:45.130
another, which should be part of[br]respectful human conduct. No matter what
0:47:45.130,0:47:51.650
kind of human you are. Right. Maybe one[br]last topic on the panel before we open up
0:47:51.650,0:47:56.390
a little bit or maybe wanted to. I thought[br]it was really interesting to read on one
0:47:56.390,0:48:02.660
of the little things on your slide. I[br]really like the one that said, I was writing
0:48:02.660,0:48:07.950
too fast now I can't read my own writing:[br]"It is just privileged people's choice."?
0:48:07.950,0:48:18.900
So in my experience very often we create[br]spaces like yours or like community, or
0:48:18.900,0:48:24.339
creating the mind of creating. Bringing in[br]new people and giving people, who maybe
0:48:24.339,0:48:30.869
haven't had sort of their typical tech[br]career, a chance to explore and see that
0:48:30.869,0:48:35.059
they can be the creators of technology[br]themselves. But we end up also creating
0:48:35.059,0:48:40.249
kind of bubbles and usually attracting[br]people with a certain background, usually
0:48:40.249,0:48:46.009
creating spaces with people. We live in[br]Europe, we're like, you know, middle class
0:48:46.009,0:48:51.119
white communities. And that's also,[br]perhaps, not the level of playing fields,
0:48:51.119,0:48:54.569
when it comes to creating inclusive[br]technology. Is that something that you
0:48:54.569,0:48:58.530
address in your spaces? I'm not looking at[br]you specifically because it's a little bit
0:48:58.530,0:49:03.770
of a different intercultural setting that[br]you have with FOSS Asia. But how does
0:49:03.770,0:49:07.960
that come into play, when we talk about[br]diversity in your experiences?
0:49:07.960,0:49:15.339
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually we are[br]located in a queer bar. So the people that
0:49:15.339,0:49:23.719
are used to come to this bar to party and[br]date - they also come on Sundays, so we
0:49:23.719,0:49:31.420
have people that would never enter a [br]hacker space, you know, in other times. So we
0:49:31.420,0:49:42.920
have, actually, met many women, many trans[br]people and queer people. One time we had
0:49:42.920,0:49:47.619
this girl, who never touched a computer.[br]We have people who have never played video
0:49:47.619,0:49:54.870
games and so on. So we have really diverse[br]public.
0:49:54.870,0:49:57.550
GdB: I think that's also interesting as[br]that was mentioned before the setting of
0:49:57.550,0:50:01.499
where your space actually is, which is a[br]really important fact of how to make
0:50:01.499,0:50:06.840
spaces accessible to different communities[br]as well. How's that for the space that you
0:50:06.840,0:50:09.650
have out there?[br]Em: So this is such a tricky question and
0:50:09.650,0:50:14.260
particularly with the volunteer one[br]spaces. You have a limited amount of time
0:50:14.260,0:50:19.660
and energy and do you spend that on[br]educating people, or do you spend it on
0:50:19.660,0:50:26.239
engaging with people, who can use your[br]resources. And I lean towards the
0:50:26.239,0:50:31.650
engagement. I feel that it's important to[br]kind of get people in and to share what we
0:50:31.650,0:50:36.839
already have with other groups. There are[br]resources out there, where people can
0:50:36.839,0:50:41.299
educate themselves - like people in[br]technology communities, like very
0:50:41.299,0:50:45.349
intelligent people, like they are more[br]than capable of kind of finding other
0:50:45.349,0:50:52.950
resources and educating themselves. And if[br]the group has the capacity, for example,
0:50:52.950,0:50:58.650
to run workshops around specific issues,[br]around consents, around kind of
0:50:58.650,0:51:03.239
introductions to feminism and other topics[br]- then that's great. And that can be a
0:51:03.239,0:51:09.009
great way of educating our own community[br]and also taking those ideas into the
0:51:09.009,0:51:16.249
outside community. But I think if it[br]was... if time was limited then I would
0:51:16.249,0:51:21.330
definitely want to dedicate more to[br]engagement rather than educating people
0:51:21.330,0:51:25.529
who are capable of educating themselves.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): About that
0:51:25.529,0:51:29.930
education. Our hackerspace has been[br]invited to give feminism 101 talks
0:51:29.930,0:51:36.829
like a lot. And so we answered yes to[br]those invitation and then we did not do
0:51:36.829,0:51:40.940
feminism 101, because we believe[br]that there has been enough talks about
0:51:40.940,0:51:45.359
feminism 101 already and there is[br]plenty of things available on the
0:51:45.359,0:51:53.920
Internet. So we make usually talks about[br]ethics of care or cyber feminism. And
0:51:53.920,0:51:59.969
every time we go somewhere we have a wiki[br]page about it with all the links about
0:51:59.969,0:52:07.730
four lines definition on Wikipedia or 40[br]pages PDF that you can download, or
0:52:07.730,0:52:12.270
podcasts, so all the feminism 101[br]and all the education has already been
0:52:12.270,0:52:17.440
done. So we are making sure that it's[br]accessible and then we are moving on,
0:52:17.440,0:52:21.650
because as you said we don't have this[br]energy to do again and again what other
0:52:21.650,0:52:32.209
have done before us.[br]applause
0:52:32.209,0:52:35.799
Lena: I think you've mentioned it already.[br]And I think you're also working
0:52:35.799,0:52:41.329
voluntarily or a lot of volunteers come[br]and so, do they have the time and energy?
0:52:41.329,0:52:46.589
As for me it's also sometimes... I'm just[br]not in the mood to explain everything
0:52:46.589,0:52:53.140
again, like the really 101 stuff.[br]But other times, when I feel like someone
0:52:53.140,0:52:58.299
is really curious and really wants to[br]learn something, and is respectful, and is
0:52:58.299,0:53:06.079
not trying to provoke a discussion just to[br]have a discussion - because then, yeah, I
0:53:06.079,0:53:10.190
don't know... With some persons I feel[br]like: okay, for him it might be a fun
0:53:10.190,0:53:13.920
discussion just to, I don't know, just to[br]test the borders and see how far you can
0:53:13.920,0:53:19.310
go. But for me it's like: okay I'm talking[br]if I have the right to be here as a woman
0:53:19.310,0:53:22.690
and I don't always feel like I want to[br]discuss that.
0:53:22.690,0:53:28.969
GdB: Your patience level is going down as[br]well. Hong Phuc, how is it for you, how do
0:53:28.969,0:53:33.880
you try to engage people in open source[br]communities that perhaps wouldn't normally
0:53:33.880,0:53:42.219
walk into a hackerspace? Or don't yet know[br]about the work that you do.
0:53:42.219,0:53:53.569
Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So I found FOSS[br]Asia. And then for me it was quite lucky,
0:53:53.569,0:53:59.239
because the founder of the organization is[br]a female. So it also help make other
0:53:59.239,0:54:04.250
people feel more comfortable to engage[br]with the open source community. But I
0:54:04.250,0:54:14.359
think as Em and Lena also said that the[br]number of women, who work in the tech
0:54:14.359,0:54:23.390
community, is very small. And I think it's[br]important to understand that when you talk
0:54:23.390,0:54:26.630
about technology - it's not only about[br]coding, because there are so many
0:54:26.630,0:54:33.089
different responsibilities and a[br]possibility that you could engage the
0:54:33.089,0:54:39.339
woman or other community members in the[br]community. So it's important to have the
0:54:39.339,0:54:44.109
guide lines to help people, a lot of good[br]documentation. To show people that by
0:54:44.109,0:54:49.619
joining the community the first step you[br]did not have to fix a bug or write a line of
0:54:49.619,0:54:53.469
code in order to join the community. You[br]can do a translation, you can do design,
0:54:53.469,0:54:59.380
localization - many things that any single[br]one of us can be involved in, can
0:54:59.380,0:55:06.239
contribute as our space. So I think that[br]is one step to lower the barriers to enter
0:55:06.239,0:55:09.369
the community.[br]GdB:Thank you.
0:55:09.369,0:55:16.309
applause[br]GdB: I'd like to start opening up the
0:55:16.309,0:55:20.960
questions and comments. We have I think[br]two microphones here in the center of the
0:55:20.960,0:55:29.569
room and... you're first.[br]Mic: Hello. First of all thank you girls
0:55:29.569,0:55:34.200
very much for this session. I kind of[br]relate to that, we're so to say from the
0:55:34.200,0:55:42.680
same club. I came from Estonia and there[br]I'm the organizer of the conference women
0:55:42.680,0:55:50.509
in cybersecurity and also head of Google[br]women tech makers in Estonia. And I can
0:55:50.509,0:55:55.880
rely to a lot of things, which you have[br]mentioned. But what I am really interested
0:55:55.880,0:56:03.069
because you're from different countries[br]is... Ms Dong has answered this question
0:56:03.069,0:56:09.229
partially, but I'm interested in other[br]answers. How do you actually attract more
0:56:09.229,0:56:14.039
women into IT? Not from the marketing[br]perspective, but from the perspective for
0:56:14.039,0:56:22.069
your mission of your hacker space or your[br]community. And how do you make those
0:56:22.069,0:56:26.720
people stay and come to the events or, if[br]not come to the events, how do you make
0:56:26.720,0:56:33.150
them thinking of that and continue[br]studying? Yeah. And the success story that
0:56:33.150,0:56:38.420
is something what we all would be really[br]interested in hearing. Because, for
0:56:38.420,0:56:43.359
example, from Ms. Dong's story we can see[br]the open source projects I guess still a
0:56:43.359,0:56:48.160
lot of girls might have been involved[br]there; and the hotel and other projects.
0:56:48.160,0:56:52.289
But what about the Europe? Tell us, that's[br]very curious. Thank you.
0:56:52.289,0:56:57.329
GdB: Thank you very much. So we collect a[br]couple and then go around or how would you
0:56:57.329,0:57:01.829
like to do it?[br]Mic: I can remind the questions if needed.
0:57:01.829,0:57:08.240
How do you attract, how do you keep people[br]and how do you... the success stories.
0:57:08.240,0:57:13.180
GdB: Thank you. So let's do that. Do you[br]have your community, is it very
0:57:13.180,0:57:16.910
fluctuating? Or do you have a kind of[br]stable group of people? Do you ever have a
0:57:16.910,0:57:19.980
problem of connecting them back to your[br]space?
0:57:19.980,0:57:26.779
Mic: Just before we start from the answer[br]for ladies - there is something else I
0:57:26.779,0:57:28.960
wanted to mention. I also come not from[br]a....
0:57:28.960,0:57:33.059
GdB: There is a long queue behind you, and[br]we've already collected a couple of
0:57:33.059,0:57:34.059
questions, so maybe just one more[br]sentence.
0:57:34.059,0:57:37.589
Mic: Of course. Yeah. Thank you... No,[br]then go ahead for the answer.
0:57:37.589,0:57:43.540
GdB: Okay. Thank you. How long time is[br]your community, how much does it
0:57:43.540,0:57:47.430
fluctuate, how do you sort of keep people?[br]Le Reset speaker (right): We have people
0:57:47.430,0:57:52.819
that come like every Sunday and we have[br]people, who come just for one workshop,
0:57:52.819,0:57:57.920
because they've been interested in that[br]topic. What we do to attract people is
0:57:57.920,0:58:04.089
that every Sunday we have a workshop, at[br]least one workshops, so people are usually
0:58:04.089,0:58:09.069
interested in the topic or just interested[br]in meeting new people. But they always
0:58:09.069,0:58:13.799
know that they won't just stand there and[br]have nobody to talk to. There is a
0:58:13.799,0:58:19.749
workshop, like they have a purpose for[br]being here. And because the topics are
0:58:19.749,0:58:25.940
always oriented towards women and queer we[br]don't have any issue attracting women and
0:58:25.940,0:58:30.640
queers in the hackerspace. We've never had[br]a majority of straight men in the
0:58:30.640,0:58:36.589
hackerspace that has never happened.[br]GdB: Thank you. So Em, and your
0:58:36.589,0:58:40.029
experience?[br]Em: Well, I mean it's a huge question how
0:58:40.029,0:58:46.890
do you attract women into IT and retain[br]shortthem. Just to keep my answer fairly sure:
0:58:46.890,0:58:53.279
one particular tip I have is to get a bit[br]academic for a second, kind of focus on
0:58:53.279,0:58:57.309
developing like the social bonds within[br]your community rather than necessarily the
0:58:57.309,0:59:02.569
tech aspects. Like when people have[br]friends and people they care about in this
0:59:02.569,0:59:07.959
community - they're much more likely to[br]join it and want to stay there and to get
0:59:07.959,0:59:14.519
more out of it. So sometimes focusing on[br]things that seem quite tangential like
0:59:14.519,0:59:18.980
socializing and people spending time[br]together, like outside of the physical
0:59:18.980,0:59:24.380
space and kind of doing like fun non tech[br]things together, like can actually do that
0:59:24.380,0:59:27.369
job of bringing more women than and femme[br]people in and helping them to feel
0:59:27.369,0:59:31.920
comfortable and welcome there.[br]GdB: I think there's a challenge maybe the
0:59:31.920,0:59:37.759
other way around too. In my experience[br]it's for many people spaces, like the ones
0:59:37.759,0:59:43.440
that you create, become a home and so sort[br]of keeping people, having people want to
0:59:43.440,0:59:48.589
be part of that home is not so hard. But[br]making sure that you remain open for new
0:59:48.589,0:59:53.440
people to sort of join that family and[br]feel as equally welcome can sometimes be
0:59:53.440,0:59:59.739
an even bigger challenge than attracting[br]people and keeping them in the beginning.
0:59:59.739,1:00:04.930
Next question.[br]Mic: So my question will mostly be related
1:00:04.930,1:00:10.709
to this mergery of the feminist hacker[br]spaces and the male hacker spaces. So I
1:00:10.709,1:00:17.690
see that you are making spaces for women[br]and for a queer to get creative, but
1:00:17.690,1:00:21.599
making these separate from other hacker[br]spaces in a bit of an isolation and I
1:00:21.599,1:00:29.269
guess this would be a next step to merge[br]these kind of societies. So from a male
1:00:29.269,1:00:33.539
perspective it's sometimes hard to[br]understand what female don't find
1:00:33.539,1:00:40.770
attractive or find distracting about[br]joining male societies, because feminist
1:00:40.770,1:00:48.410
activism usually do not target male to[br]express what the problem is. So what do
1:00:48.410,1:00:54.680
you think that could be done towards this[br]mergery? So to make women try to get
1:00:54.680,1:01:04.470
involved in male hacker spaces and to make[br]men more acceptive to female. So this
1:01:04.470,1:01:11.509
mergery to get involved together. I hope[br]my question was on this...
1:01:11.509,1:01:17.660
laughing[br]GdB: You can all feel free
1:01:17.660,1:01:26.886
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't think[br]our goal is to merge our hacker spaces. We
1:01:26.886,1:01:30.420
are creating hacker spaces around our[br]issues, if you want to come you're
1:01:30.420,1:01:35.789
welcome. But what you will find here is[br]things that concerns us. But of course
1:01:35.789,1:01:43.730
you're welcome. And...[br]applause
1:01:43.730,1:01:46.160
Le Reset speaker (right): We don't have[br]any interest in your issues so we're not
1:01:46.160,1:01:50.169
coming to your hacker spaces. But...[br]applause
1:01:50.169,1:01:57.160
Mic: Yeah. I understand this. And I don't[br]think that what you do is wrong. I just
1:01:57.160,1:02:01.320
think that this is a sort of isolation[br]between two different kinds of creative
1:02:01.320,1:02:03.320
energy.[br]GdB: Let's...
1:02:03.320,1:02:07.079
Le Reset speaker (right): I think you've[br]been in isolation much more longer than
1:02:07.079,1:02:09.079
us.[br]applause
1:02:09.079,1:02:11.449
Mic: I mean probably separation, not[br]isolation.
1:02:11.449,1:02:17.579
GdB: Let's.. Again I'm gonna say, there[br]are many people queuing behind you, so we
1:02:17.579,1:02:20.239
do want to get in a conversation with[br]everyone, but we want to give everybody
1:02:20.239,1:02:26.119
the chance to speak as well. I think I'm[br]gonna rephrase your question if I may,
1:02:26.119,1:02:31.759
when it comes to the actual creation of[br]technology. Because I think that... let's
1:02:31.759,1:02:34.119
see if there are two separate things or[br]not: the one thing is that you have a
1:02:34.119,1:02:37.640
community and you have a space for that[br]community, and you want to prioritize the
1:02:37.640,1:02:42.489
issues of your community. The other[br]question is when we create technology and
1:02:42.489,1:02:45.999
we create technology for the general[br]public. How do we ensure that that
1:02:45.999,1:02:51.529
technology is created by the public as in[br]all members of that public and then
1:02:51.529,1:02:56.180
reflects all of our values equally.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
1:02:56.180,1:02:58.180
in the general public.[br]GdB: Sorry?
1:02:58.180,1:03:00.949
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe[br]in the general public.
1:03:00.949,1:03:09.069
applause[br]Hong Phuc Dang: So I could answer your
1:03:09.069,1:03:14.240
question. I also don't want to give[br]comment about if we merging the two
1:03:14.240,1:03:19.089
groups. But if you want to make your[br]space, any hacker space, more welcome to
1:03:19.089,1:03:23.769
woman or any member, the first thing: just[br]like in a normal context - if you have a
1:03:23.769,1:03:27.930
new guest coming to your home, the first[br]thing is that to show the guest around.
1:03:27.930,1:03:35.169
Like to interact with a person and to be[br]patient, and show them what they can do.
1:03:35.169,1:03:38.650
And also one thing that I mentioned[br]earlier: because people have different
1:03:38.650,1:03:42.469
background knowledge so it's more[br]important that you find out what is their
1:03:42.469,1:03:47.859
motivation, to get to know the people[br]better. So make this more like the women
1:03:47.859,1:03:52.630
feel more comfortable to come you to your[br]space instead of asking them to merge
1:03:52.630,1:03:56.390
together with another space. Just create a[br]more friendly environment in your space.
1:03:56.390,1:04:00.099
By just approaching the people, the[br]newcomers and welcome them.
1:04:00.099,1:04:07.079
applause[br]GdB: Next person please.
1:04:07.079,1:04:15.730
Mic: So I have some more of experience to[br]share than the question. I organize events
1:04:15.730,1:04:24.740
for geeks and they are very male heavy,[br]let's say. And what I found is when it
1:04:24.740,1:04:32.150
comes to disabled people and that the[br]community is more likely to actually
1:04:32.150,1:04:37.489
change is because then they change[br]environment and they don't have to change
1:04:37.489,1:04:39.489
themselves.[br]applause
1:04:39.489,1:04:44.819
Mic: The huge problem usually is that the[br]male populated hacker space are generally
1:04:44.819,1:04:54.210
community in general, feel that when they[br]have to open to female presence or a gay
1:04:54.210,1:05:00.289
presence, etc. they have to change their[br]own behavior. And that it's not something
1:05:00.289,1:05:04.630
they are willing to do. Sadly enough.[br]Thanks.
1:05:04.630,1:05:10.179
GdB: Thank you. Was that question in there[br]you just wanted to share. Okay good. Thank
1:05:10.179,1:05:12.709
you. There's an online question we'd like[br]to take next please.
1:05:12.709,1:05:16.680
Signal Angel: The question was answered.[br]GdB: Oh...
1:05:16.680,1:05:20.604
laughing[br]GdB: Okay then. In that case.
1:05:20.604,1:05:25.589
Mic: Hello. Thank you. First of all thank[br]you for all of your great work. I just
1:05:25.589,1:05:29.940
want to have a question about something[br]that maybe a little bit missed in this
1:05:29.940,1:05:34.309
conversation. And so we talked about all[br]of the communities and the hacker spaces
1:05:34.309,1:05:41.480
that focused on a woman and non binaries.[br]But imagine a scenario that there is a
1:05:41.480,1:05:47.170
company or there's like a startup and[br]there is not much diversity and we want to
1:05:47.170,1:05:55.140
improve like representation of people of[br]marginalized group or anyway. How
1:05:55.140,1:06:00.569
we can achieve that? There are lots of[br]suggestions like hire people who are like
1:06:00.569,1:06:07.569
visible to others, to be very open about[br]this and try to attract more people. But
1:06:07.569,1:06:13.359
is there any sort of way to talk to get[br]these successful stories about to improve
1:06:13.359,1:06:19.930
the diversity of companies and startups[br]and other types of communities?
1:06:19.930,1:06:28.470
GdB: Thank you.[br]Lena: I think it's often you have biases
1:06:28.470,1:06:34.209
sometimes in the hiring process, so maybe[br]you go through different CVs of different
1:06:34.209,1:06:39.959
persons and then you... I only know[br]examples from Germany, but I guess it's
1:06:39.959,1:06:45.569
the same everywhere. If you read a CV with[br]a name that sounds foreign to you, you
1:06:45.569,1:06:49.700
might put it to the side or might[br]automatically think: okay maybe this
1:06:49.700,1:06:58.900
person is not equally capable. Even if the[br]skills are the same. And also in your job
1:06:58.900,1:07:04.180
descriptions you can make sure that it's[br]more inclusive so you don't say like: okay
1:07:04.180,1:07:12.890
the perfect person "he" should have this[br]and that's, put "he and she". And I think
1:07:12.890,1:07:18.829
a lot of times it's about really really[br]subtle changes and small things. And like
1:07:18.829,1:07:21.369
you said it's a change of the mindset. So[br]it's...
1:07:21.369,1:07:24.771
GdB: Yeah, please.[br]Le Reset speaker (left): Actually, you
1:07:24.771,1:07:30.239
know, in Le Reset we do not value success[br]stories at all. We don't care. We value
1:07:30.239,1:07:35.630
partnership. Partnership and being well[br]together, and that's what works actually.
1:07:35.630,1:07:41.920
We do many things, but not by pushing[br]things. To be a woman or queer, or
1:07:41.920,1:07:47.709
whatever... we do what we want to do, what[br]we like and that works. That's just that.
1:07:47.709,1:07:50.189
Mic: Thank you.[br]GdB: Thank you.
1:07:50.189,1:07:55.819
applause[br]GdB: Maybe we can exchange after this. Oh
1:07:55.819,1:07:59.779
there's a lot of great written walks[br]already out there that give advice to
1:07:59.779,1:08:03.819
companies and startups that want be more[br]inclusive. But like the the simplest thing
1:08:03.819,1:08:08.599
if, like you said it yourself, if you want[br]to be inclusive - have an inclusive team.
1:08:08.599,1:08:14.279
You cannot have an inclusive or diverse[br]startup if your team are all men and the
1:08:14.279,1:08:18.820
excuse that you didn't find the right[br]people out there doesn't really go. Either
1:08:18.820,1:08:22.580
because, like you said, then maybe you're[br]looking the wrong way. And if you
1:08:22.580,1:08:26.350
seriously can't find anybody with a[br]skillset you're looking for - then help
1:08:26.350,1:08:31.500
people build that skillset. So there are[br]always ways to actually do that in your
1:08:31.500,1:08:40.440
team. Please.[br]Mic: Hi. Six of you proposed talks. We got
1:08:40.440,1:08:45.600
one talk. Yes you are six awesome women.[br]It's an awesome topic. We've got an
1:08:45.600,1:08:50.569
audience of roughly 50/50. It's one of the[br]most balanced audiences I've seen that
1:08:50.569,1:08:55.870
this entire event, but I'm pretty certain[br]that the men in here are majority male
1:08:55.870,1:09:01.170
allies. The women you're preaching to the[br]perverted here, why is it that we have
1:09:01.170,1:09:07.650
allowed ourselves to be gerrymandered in[br]this way. Why do we have only one session.
1:09:07.650,1:09:22.620
Why do we not have six sessions.[br]applause
1:09:22.620,1:09:31.600
Mic: Adams, Borg, Clark, Dijkstra. The[br]meeting rooms are named after men! Women
1:09:31.600,1:09:36.520
are 50/50 of the population. Why are we[br]allowing this to happen. I appreciate. I'm
1:09:36.520,1:09:40.447
looking you in the eye and I'm guilty[br]here of preaching to perverted too. But
1:09:40.447,1:09:45.060
why are we allowing it. Why is it[br]happening. It's 2018. It's soon to be
1:09:45.060,1:09:57.960
2019. We deserve better.[br]applause
1:09:57.960,1:10:02.959
Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. Thank you very[br]much for your concern. But I think that...
1:10:02.959,1:10:06.590
don't you think that is good to bring[br]people together because, of course like we
1:10:06.590,1:10:11.980
can have separate section, but it also[br]very good to have everyone come together
1:10:11.980,1:10:14.980
and share their opinions so we can have a[br]conversation, in which we can learn for
1:10:14.980,1:10:19.240
each other. So again that the congress is[br]very busy. Not everyone can come to every
1:10:19.240,1:10:24.400
single talk. Maybe we'll not be able to[br]attend always our friends who are the
1:10:24.400,1:10:28.350
panelists here. But it's good that we can[br]come all together. So are always pro and
1:10:28.350,1:10:31.710
con. But thank you very much for your[br]concern.
1:10:31.710,1:10:34.480
applause[br]GdB: We have exactly time for one last
1:10:34.480,1:10:37.210
question/intervention and that shall be[br]you.
1:10:37.210,1:10:42.730
Mic: Thank you. Thank you for the talk and[br]thank you for this opportunity. I'm
1:10:42.730,1:10:49.100
probably in the category of a straight[br]male engineer. But I also more or less...
1:10:49.100,1:10:55.290
but I also have, I'm running a coworking[br]space in Copenhagen and I'm specifically
1:10:55.290,1:11:00.620
focusing on making it inclusive. So I'll[br]be trying to find an information and tips
1:11:00.620,1:11:08.860
on how to do that. But I have two other[br]questions then. What would be your top
1:11:08.860,1:11:17.340
three action points on ending the digital[br]gender divide? It's a big topic, I know.
1:11:17.340,1:11:21.400
laughing[br]GdB: There's a small question for the end
1:11:21.400,1:11:22.990
of session.[br]Mic: Yeah.
1:11:22.990,1:11:26.120
GdB: And you had a second one even.[br]Mic: Yeah. The second one was...
1:11:26.120,1:11:30.120
laughing[br]Mic: I guess that's, I mean, I really see
1:11:30.120,1:11:36.370
the points being raised about designing. I[br]mean just down to the level of design:
1:11:36.370,1:11:40.730
designing a website targeted to a male[br]audience versus targeted to a female
1:11:40.730,1:12:02.230
audience. And the second question was...[br]What was that... The FOSS Asia. In Asia I
1:12:02.230,1:12:08.440
read an article lately from after access[br]magazine about Internet usage throughout
1:12:08.440,1:12:14.730
the global south. And it's thus in Asia[br]you have like 20 percent of the population
1:12:14.730,1:12:20.960
on the Internet. Do you see that as a[br]problem? And what do you think could be
1:12:20.960,1:12:23.980
done about it?[br]GdB: Okay so how do we close the digital
1:12:23.980,1:12:30.480
divide as such and how to close the gender[br]divide. Specifically. Okay. Thank you.
1:12:30.480,1:12:36.270
Hong Phuc Dang: And I don't want to[br]announce that I am suggested we have a
1:12:36.270,1:12:42.470
after panel discussion, so we hosted a[br]follow up discussion at the FOSS Asia
1:12:42.470,1:12:45.890
assembly after this. If you have more[br]questions and you want to continue the
1:12:45.890,1:12:53.150
conversation we can meet there at 8:15?[br]GdB: 8:15 to 9:15. We're not dodging your
1:12:53.150,1:12:59.500
question or we're just going to move it to[br]that meetup. I hope that's okay. As we
1:12:59.500,1:13:02.530
have run over time. But I would like to end[br]maybe with a little bit of a closing
1:13:02.530,1:13:08.941
round, because I think this came out of a[br]number of statements that you made, on
1:13:08.941,1:13:14.700
your specific and of course work as a[br]leader of the open source community, which
1:13:14.700,1:13:18.940
is on shared resources. So you mentioned[br]that a lot of times you're putting your
1:13:18.940,1:13:23.500
resources out there and they're out there[br]for other people to share and learn from.
1:13:23.500,1:13:28.460
I'd be interested and a little bit of[br]closing round of either recommendations,
1:13:28.460,1:13:32.770
reading recommendations, places to go look[br]for further information, maybe places
1:13:32.770,1:13:36.480
where you can be publishing your research.[br]But although the question of connecting
1:13:36.480,1:13:40.060
like how do we strengthen each other's[br]work. Not just by coming together at
1:13:40.060,1:13:44.580
conferences like this but by making our[br]knowledge open and sharing it and perhaps
1:13:44.580,1:13:48.980
also exchanging experiences with one[br]another. So if maybe you want to leave
1:13:48.980,1:13:53.630
with an idea or a recommendation, or a[br]point of inspiration, or question on that
1:13:53.630,1:13:56.900
issue. Let's do a quick round. You want to[br]start?
1:13:56.900,1:14:02.190
Em: So we're quite lucky in the UK that we[br]have the UK Hackspace Foundation which is
1:14:02.190,1:14:07.460
a kind of Umbrella group for the [not [br]understandable] hackerspaces in the UK and
1:14:07.460,1:14:12.500
these kind of organisations can be great[br]for raising discussions about these
1:14:12.500,1:14:17.920
topics. I'm really pushing to have more of[br]focus on inclusivity and diversity in the
1:14:17.920,1:14:21.270
UK Hackspace Foundation at the moment and[br]that can be a way of kind of funnelling
1:14:21.270,1:14:25.040
best practices out through all of the[br]member organizations.
1:14:25.040,1:14:29.900
GdB: Thank you.[br]Lena: I think for us it's we really focus
1:14:29.900,1:14:35.330
on, like you mentioned as well, the[br]personal connection. So yeah we would of
1:14:35.330,1:14:38.250
course prefer that you visit us for[br]coctails and code, and I think there are a
1:14:38.250,1:14:46.001
lot of almost.. I think in the bigger[br]cities you will find of feminist or women
1:14:46.001,1:14:51.100
only or women and non binary people only[br]spaces. And if there is none, maybe then
1:14:51.100,1:14:55.420
you should found one. Because I think it's[br]really important and I think it happens a
1:14:55.420,1:14:59.030
lot through personal connections.[br]GdB: Thank you, Lena.
1:14:59.030,1:15:03.080
Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So it is something[br]you all are welcome at our open source
1:15:03.080,1:15:08.580
hotel in Vietnam now if you ever want to[br]visit and welcome at any FOSS Asia events.
1:15:08.580,1:15:16.150
At the same time I think that we could[br]share our best practices and the
1:15:16.150,1:15:20.270
successful story on our website. So[br]whatever the FOSS Asia developed and what
1:15:20.270,1:15:23.980
we do we publish everything. I think that[br]is a good way to share resources with
1:15:23.980,1:15:29.260
other communities. And a panel discussion[br]is always good to learn and to continue
1:15:29.260,1:15:32.190
the conversation.[br]GdB: It's definitely good moment with you
1:15:32.190,1:15:35.190
guys. Sarah.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): There is only
1:15:35.190,1:15:39.170
one thing to do is to go to our Wiki. We[br]have all the resources that you need, in
1:15:39.170,1:15:41.170
French.[br]laughing
1:15:41.170,1:15:50.490
Hong Phug Dang: Our website is in English[br]laughingapplause
1:15:50.490,1:15:55.540
Le Reset speaker (right): So yeah, we will[br]try. As after this conference and this as
1:15:55.540,1:16:00.020
I say we will try to put the video on our[br]Wiki with a page with all the references
1:16:00.020,1:16:04.450
as we do usually in French and so we will[br]do it in English this time. So you should
1:16:04.450,1:16:11.400
find it in a few days on our Wiki which is[br]Wiki.LeReset.org.
1:16:11.400,1:16:15.750
GdB: Excellent.[br]applause
1:16:15.750,1:16:20.210
GdB: I would like to thank you all for[br]hanging in such great ideas for this event
1:16:20.210,1:16:24.740
for sitting on this panel and sharing your[br]thoughts and experiences. Thank you Azam.
1:16:24.740,1:16:28.789
Thank you Sarah. Thank you Hong. Thank you[br]Lena. Thank you Em. For being part of the
1:16:28.789,1:16:33.360
session. Thank you all for attending and[br]your inputs and ideas as well. And let's
1:16:33.360,1:16:36.120
say a big thank you to the stage host and[br]the translators for doing a wonderful job
1:16:36.120,1:16:37.660
as well.
1:16:37.660,1:16:40.913
applause
1:16:40.913,1:16:42.920
35c3 postroll music
1:16:42.920,1:17:05.000
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