0:00:00.000,0:00:17.060 35C3 preroll music 0:00:17.060,0:00:22.360 Herald: I will now hand over the[br]microphone to our moderator, Geraldine De 0:00:22.360,0:00:29.420 Bastion, who apart from the French name[br]does not speak French. 0:00:29.420,0:00:30.730 Thank you very much. 0:00:30.730,0:00:31.580 laughter 0:00:31.580,0:00:34.220 Geraldine De Bastion: Thank you so much[br]for having me here and hopefully enough 0:00:34.220,0:00:38.440 English to moderate the session. Hi[br]everybody. My name is Geraldine and I'm 0:00:38.440,0:00:44.010 very proud to be moderating this session.[br]Maybe a few words to kick off with; 0:00:44.010,0:00:49.809 usually sessions at CCC come together[br]because one person or team of people hand 0:00:49.809,0:00:55.239 in a topic that they feel they would like[br]to talk about here on one of these stages. 0:00:55.239,0:00:59.960 This session came together because several[br]people handed in sessions where they 0:00:59.960,0:01:04.770 wanted to address how they're trying to[br]build communities or spaces that are 0:01:04.770,0:01:09.460 specifically feminist, diverse, and[br]inclusive. And we thought it would be a 0:01:09.460,0:01:14.240 great idea to give not just one person who[br]handed in a session, or two people, but 0:01:14.240,0:01:18.630 all the people who handed in sessions on[br]this topic the stage. So this is how the 0:01:18.630,0:01:21.780 session came together: by us grouping[br]together different submissions on the 0:01:21.780,0:01:27.460 topic. And so I'm very happy that we have[br]five very interesting and excellent humans 0:01:27.460,0:01:31.390 here to speak on the topic matter and will[br]be presenting their different approaches 0:01:31.390,0:01:35.680 and their different strategies to building[br]feminist spaces and communities. And I'd 0:01:35.680,0:01:41.959 like to welcome them here on stage. So[br]first off we have Hong Phuc who runs FOSS 0:01:41.959,0:01:46.210 Asia, which is a community in[br]Asia/Southeast Asia for developing 0:01:46.210,0:01:50.280 software and hardware specifically open[br]source. Welcome Hong! 0:01:50.280,0:01:56.700 applause 0:01:56.700,0:02:01.140 GdB: We have Azam and Sarah from Le RESET, [br]which is a feminist 0:02:01.140,0:02:03.461 queer hackerspace. 0:02:03.461,0:02:09.670 applause 0:02:09.670,0:02:15.250 GdB: Welcome! We have Em O'Sullivan former[br]hackerspace and maker fair organizer, now 0:02:15.250,0:02:20.180 researching how to improve women and non[br]binary people's engagement in maker a 0:02:20.180,0:02:21.860 spaces. Welcome Em! 0:02:21.860,0:02:24.940 applause 0:02:24.940,0:02:30.410 GdB: And last but not least we have Lena[br]Mohr, who is a UX designer from Stuttgart, 0:02:30.410,0:02:33.890 started an initiative called Ready to[br]Code, teaching young girls to code. 0:02:33.890,0:02:35.688 Welcome Lena. 0:02:35.688,0:02:38.590 applause 0:02:38.590,0:02:43.700 GdB: And as I said, my name is Geraldine[br]de Bastion. I run a community called the 0:02:43.700,0:02:47.750 Global Innovation Gathering, which is a[br]network of different maker spaces, hacker 0:02:47.750,0:02:52.890 spaces, different kind of innovation,[br]makers and innovators across the world. So 0:02:52.890,0:02:56.830 a quick housekeeping note for the session.[br]The format is that we're going to give 0:02:56.830,0:03:00.931 each of the teams here on stage the[br]opportunity to present their work to you 0:03:00.931,0:03:05.900 in about seven to 10 minutes, and then[br]we'll get to gather here to discuss the 0:03:05.900,0:03:10.922 difference and the likenesses in[br]approaches and in perspectives, 0:03:10.922,0:03:14.380 experiences and ideas. And then we would[br]like to invite you all to join this 0:03:14.380,0:03:20.500 discussion and open the floor. So to kick[br]things off I would invite you first to 0:03:20.500,0:03:24.420 share a little bit the story of FOSS Asia[br]and your work at the last 10 years, Hong. 0:03:24.420,0:03:31.540 Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. I did not[br]expect that I would go first, but that's 0:03:31.540,0:03:58.850 okay.[br]shuffling 0:03:58.850,0:04:00.490 There we go. 0:04:00.490,0:04:08.310 Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so hello everyone![br]My name is Hong Phuc Dang, or HP Dang if 0:04:08.310,0:04:14.250 you want to look for me on the web. So[br]today I will talk about how I get involved 0:04:14.250,0:04:19.849 in open source community in the first[br]place, and also some highlights of my work 0:04:19.849,0:04:26.380 at FOSS Asia during the past 10 years.[br]Before that a little bit about my 0:04:26.380,0:04:33.490 background. I was born and grew up in a[br]small town in South Vietnam. It is called 0:04:33.490,0:04:37.070 Can Tho, I don't know if any of you have[br]been there before, but it's about 200 0:04:37.070,0:04:47.400 kilometers south of Hoh Chi Minh City.[br]This is my first 20 years of my life, so 0:04:47.400,0:04:54.310 I've been always there, feel like a[br]confusing little girl because I keep 0:04:54.310,0:05:00.530 wondering what I really want to achieve in[br]my life. My family, my parents were not 0:05:00.530,0:05:06.590 so... were poor at that time. In 1987,[br]most of the families there were poor due 0:05:06.590,0:05:11.910 to the war. We just finished the war and[br]then the reform of Vietnam. My parents 0:05:11.910,0:05:16.190 been working very hard so that me and my[br]sister could have a better future. And the 0:05:16.190,0:05:20.990 only motivation that I have in my life[br]until I was 20: to get a very good job 0:05:20.990,0:05:25.620 somewhere after graduation, so that I can[br]earn some money, take care of my parents, 0:05:25.620,0:05:32.760 and be able to afford something that I[br]could never have when I was a kid. So this 0:05:32.760,0:05:37.590 is what I was thinking when I got to 20[br]years old. I went to school, I studied 0:05:37.590,0:05:40.870 super super hard but I never had really[br]interested in school and I also don't 0:05:40.870,0:05:45.260 understand so much what I learn and get[br]out of school. I just know that if I study 0:05:45.260,0:05:53.360 hard I would have a good future. In 2007 I[br]met Mario Behling who later on became my 0:05:53.360,0:06:01.150 mentor and also a partner later on. Not on[br]Tinder, but at a free event, a free 0:06:01.150,0:06:05.479 technology event in Hanoi. In 2007 it was[br]the first time I learned about free 0:06:05.479,0:06:13.110 software. In the same year, I switched[br]from Windows XP to Ubuntu and started to 0:06:13.110,0:06:18.170 use open source. And then so I started to[br]involve with different user groups in the 0:06:18.170,0:06:24.229 region, and also contribute small bits,[br]like localization into some software 0:06:24.229,0:06:28.830 project. At the same time I also learned[br]how to submit a bug report, make an issue 0:06:28.830,0:06:35.480 to different projects. And by involving in[br]the open source community I got to meet so 0:06:35.480,0:06:40.750 many interesting people that inspire me.[br]So I always have very cool conversation 0:06:40.750,0:06:45.810 with people who've been involved in one[br]project for over 15, 20 years. That really 0:06:45.810,0:06:49.400 inspired me, how people can be so[br]persistent and continuously work on 0:06:49.400,0:06:53.290 something for so long. And when they talk[br]about their job, is so positive and 0:06:53.290,0:06:58.940 energetic. Even though it keeps repeating,[br]but they're very patient and when I joined 0:06:58.940,0:07:03.419 the community it's so good that people[br]always like very patient and took their 0:07:03.419,0:07:09.820 time to explain to you when you don't[br]understand something. So two years later 0:07:09.820,0:07:18.180 in 2009, Mario and I decided to found the[br]FOSS Asia organization. So FOSS Asia, the 0:07:18.180,0:07:23.979 goal of FOSS Asia is to bring together an[br]inspired community across Asia, a lot of 0:07:23.979,0:07:29.210 different communities to view a better[br]future with open technologies. Since then 0:07:29.210,0:07:33.729 we have developed so many different[br]projects with the FOSS Asia communities. 0:07:33.729,0:07:38.710 These are some of the software and also[br]hardware projects that we've been working 0:07:38.710,0:07:45.370 on. SUSI.AI is an alternative to Alexa or[br]Google Home, and Pocket Science Lab is our 0:07:45.370,0:07:50.430 newly released open hardware project. You[br]can find all the projects on Github of 0:07:50.430,0:07:54.400 FOSS Asia actually. Eventyay is an event[br]solution that's similar to what you have 0:07:54.400,0:07:59.169 here, the[unclear][???], just scheduling[br]and also ticket selling open source did 0:07:59.169,0:08:05.770 entirely by the FOSS Asia community. We[br]also organize a lot of events, conferences 0:08:05.770,0:08:09.020 and meet-ups throughout our regions. One[br]of our biggest events is the FOSS Asia 0:08:09.020,0:08:13.850 Summit, happens every year in March in[br]Singapore. Throughout the year we also 0:08:13.850,0:08:18.900 have smaller workshops and events in[br]China, in India, Vietnam, Indonesia, 0:08:18.900,0:08:27.830 Malaysia and many other places. Some of[br]the highlights of my last 10 years. In 0:08:27.830,0:08:32.270 2010 it was my first time into Europe. It[br]was so difficult to get a visa to come 0:08:32.270,0:08:36.159 here. I know, for many of you, but it was[br]a big thing for me to enter Europe for the 0:08:36.159,0:08:41.860 first time. I got invited to the Libre[br]Graphics meeting. This is the photo taken 0:08:41.860,0:08:46.929 when I was giving a talk. You can see it,[br]I was super nervous at that time. And the 0:08:46.929,0:08:50.040 next picture, after the talk I went to[br]dinner with a group of friends, the people 0:08:50.040,0:08:54.360 from the Libre Graphics communities. I was[br]the only girl but I did not realize that 0:08:54.360,0:08:58.189 until somebody comment on my Facebook, why[br]you was the only girl in the picture. But 0:08:58.189,0:09:06.949 it was really cool and very welcoming in[br]the community. 2012 we built a hotel in 0:09:06.949,0:09:14.029 our hometown Can Tho, and we labelled it[br]the Open Source hotel. You can look up, 0:09:14.029,0:09:19.879 Hotel Xoai is the name of the place. So[br]basically it's built by the Open Source 0:09:19.879,0:09:27.059 community member. So we set up the[br]wireless network with OpenWRT. I did 0:09:27.059,0:09:31.110 the entire wiring for the telephone[br]myself. I did it for three weeks but I was 0:09:31.110,0:09:36.870 very proud of it and we have the[br]declaration inside the hotel is donated to 0:09:36.870,0:09:42.170 us by the Libre Graphics community, so by[br]some artists in that community. And in 0:09:42.170,0:09:46.959 this space we hosted a lot of workshops[br]and we hosted many open source 0:09:46.959,0:09:51.940 contributors in our place. So we have dDebian[br]developers, we have GIMP contributers, we 0:09:51.940,0:09:56.610 have people from all over the world to[br]come and stay with us in this space here 0:09:56.610,0:10:03.220 in Vietnam. In the same year I also hosted[br]the group of artists and designers that I 0:10:03.220,0:10:09.439 met in Brussels in 2010 in Hoh Chi Minh[br]City. So we did an open source design week 0:10:09.439,0:10:19.300 in Saigon, and surprisingly more than 40%[br]of the participants are female. So what we 0:10:19.300,0:10:24.319 did in this design week, we showed people[br]how to make artwork with free tools, with 0:10:24.319,0:10:30.280 free software, and at the end we also made[br]an exhibition, what kind of work that you 0:10:30.280,0:10:38.550 can do with free software. And 2014 it was[br]my first time attending the CCC, and this 0:10:38.550,0:10:44.329 is the first person that I met in the[br]speaker room, who spend several minutes of 0:10:44.329,0:10:47.489 his valuable time to explain to me what is[br]the difference between free software and 0:10:47.489,0:10:49.099 open source. 0:10:49.099,0:10:50.189 laughter 0:10:50.189,0:10:54.440 Hong Phuc Dang: But I was very happy I was[br]also a speaker at that time, so we got a 0:10:54.440,0:11:02.350 photo together. 2016 we launch Code Heat[br]Program, which is an online coding 0:11:02.350,0:11:07.350 programme done by the FOSS Asia community.[br]So the goal of this program is to help 0:11:07.350,0:11:12.269 young developers and contributors to start[br]to work in open source software and how to 0:11:12.269,0:11:17.800 become an active contributor to open[br]source. So we have our FOSS Asia members 0:11:17.800,0:11:21.230 to guide them, so everything happenes on[br]GitHub, we have GitHub channels where 0:11:21.230,0:11:27.529 people can post questions. And at the end[br]the winners will win a trip to the FOSS 0:11:27.529,0:11:32.519 Asia Summit and present about their[br]working experience during the programme. 0:11:32.519,0:11:39.800 2018. So we released our Pocket Science[br]Lab to the market. So the project been 0:11:39.800,0:11:46.239 going on for the past two years and we[br]will finally produce them in China and now 0:11:46.239,0:11:52.470 started to distribute them all over the[br]world. So we have a shop in Japan which 0:11:52.470,0:11:58.480 has sold out in two days. We also[br]distributed in India, in Singapore, in 0:11:58.480,0:12:03.259 Europe and it's been piloting in school in[br]Singapore, in India and also in Vietnam. 0:12:03.259,0:12:08.569 So basically it's a small device that[br]helps you to make science experiments. 0:12:08.569,0:12:14.899 It's an oscilloscope with logic analyzer and[br]many different functions. We have a 0:12:14.899,0:12:21.700 workshop here as well at the CCC if you[br]want to find out more. Okay some of my 0:12:21.700,0:12:26.769 approach and lesson learned for the[br]question about what strategy that you do 0:12:26.769,0:12:31.290 to engage many people in the community and[br]how to rear the communitiy. So what I 0:12:31.290,0:12:36.360 learned from the past 10 years: The first[br]thing is to be sincere with whoever you 0:12:36.360,0:12:42.600 meet. That how my reaction in the[br]community to be sincere with people, and 0:12:42.600,0:12:47.279 empower the people in the community. Just[br]like when I first joined the community, 0:12:47.279,0:12:52.269 the more responsibility to give to people,[br]they feel empower and they, it's also 0:12:52.269,0:12:57.160 better to scale up the community.[br]Motivation; in order to work with people 0:12:57.160,0:13:00.939 and to find the right approach you need to[br]understand the motivation behind 0:13:00.939,0:13:08.790 individuals and it's really important to[br]rear the community. And my philosophy is 0:13:08.790,0:13:12.509 it always better by sharing. So we share[br]our knowledge, that what's the reason we 0:13:12.509,0:13:19.019 are here – we share our resources and we[br]bring people together. Finally, in the 0:13:19.019,0:13:23.899 FOSS Asia community, I made friends. Their[br]friendship is important over the years and 0:13:23.899,0:13:27.569 I know that the people I've been working[br]with or engaged with will be friends for 0:13:27.569,0:13:34.079 life – so that is a good thing about the[br]free software community. And next year 0:13:34.079,0:13:40.069 2009 will be our 10-year milestone of the[br]FOSS Asia organization. We have a big 0:13:40.069,0:13:43.929 celebration in Singapore between March 14[br]and 17. If you happen to be there or you 0:13:43.929,0:13:51.249 plan a trip to Asia you are very welcome[br]to join us. The website 2019.fossasia.org. 0:13:51.249,0:13:56.239 And here at the CCC we have a group of[br]FOSS Asia member flew in from Singapore, 0:13:56.239,0:14:01.639 from France, from Spain and also in[br]Germany. We have a laser cutter here, 0:14:01.639,0:14:07.650 built by a FOSS Asia member in Singapore,[br]open source laser cutter. The small 0:14:07.650,0:14:12.220 picture here is [???] carrying it and is[br]at our FOSS Asia assembly if you want to 0:14:12.220,0:14:18.720 check it out. If you want to get in touch[br]with us, or you want to look for me at the 0:14:18.720,0:14:24.639 end of the talk, you can search on the[br]navigation app for FOSS Asia and our 0:14:24.639,0:14:31.439 number is a 8575. Thank you. 0:14:31.439,0:14:36.329 applause 0:14:36.329,0:14:40.309 GdB: Thank you very much Hong for that[br]introduction into FOSS Asia and your work. 0:14:40.309,0:14:44.151 Azam, Sarah, would[br]you like to go next to present Le RESET? 0:14:44.151,0:14:52.129 Le Reset speaker (left): Okay so we both[br]come from France. We are part of Le RESET, 0:14:52.129,0:15:00.159 which is a feminist and queer hacker space[br]and we're going to explain a little bit 0:15:00.159,0:15:10.089 what we are doing, why we're doing it and[br]how. So our hacker space welcomes actively 0:15:10.089,0:15:18.439 people who usually do not feel safe or[br]included in many other hacker spaces. So 0:15:18.439,0:15:28.429 mostly queer persons and women, because[br]most of straight men feel really entitled 0:15:28.429,0:15:36.929 to learn and share what they learn and[br]teach everything. And on the other side 0:15:36.929,0:15:43.120 you have queer persons and women who have[br]major imposter syndrome when it comes to 0:15:43.120,0:15:52.769 technology. We observe these things and[br]also that the solutions to fix all issues 0:15:52.769,0:16:02.269 are also designed by straight men so they[br]are not adequate with our issues and that 0:16:02.269,0:16:08.660 we have a big lack of transmission in our[br]communities. So as we were to the geeky 0:16:08.660,0:16:15.569 ones around queers and queer ones around[br]geeks we did Le RESET to have a space that 0:16:15.569,0:16:21.699 is the intersection of queer and geek[br]people. So it takes place in a queer bar 0:16:21.699,0:16:37.449 in Paris every Sunday. And I'm really[br]scared, I'm sorry. We started in 2016 and 0:16:37.449,0:16:44.970 we speak directly to women and queers so[br]that they feel welcome and included and 0:16:44.970,0:16:52.419 would come to our space. We built a code[br]of conduct that we may discuss further, 0:16:52.419,0:17:07.020 that we embody so we endorse it and not[br]just write it somewhere. So our basis are 0:17:07.020,0:17:14.199 feminist ethics based on the "Ethics of[br]Care" by Joan Tronto. We do workshops for 0:17:14.199,0:17:22.150 beginners every session and we really[br]insist on the things for beginners. The 0:17:22.150,0:17:28.170 workshops are mainly hosted by queer or[br]women and we do not treat differently 0:17:28.170,0:17:36.990 infosec, coding, gaming, crafts, care[br]practice and all the things we do not make 0:17:36.990,0:17:45.280 a hierarchy. We analyzed the board[br]dynamics with material feminism and 0:17:45.280,0:17:50.370 most of our projects are cyber feminists.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): So I'm going to 0:17:50.370,0:17:54.870 talk a little more about some projects[br]that we have at Le Reset, what is it, so I 0:17:54.870,0:18:00.290 took three different examples. The best[br]example is the crypto bar. So it's 0:18:00.290,0:18:07.390 basically a one on one crypto party with[br]just one person as they were launched by 0:18:07.390,0:18:14.380 Asher Wolf and those security talks, they[br]are menu oriented toward cyber harassment 0:18:14.380,0:18:20.890 because women and queer people usually ask[br]us about security issues when they have 0:18:20.890,0:18:25.020 trouble with cyber harassment. And so we[br]have identified it to be the main threat 0:18:25.020,0:18:32.130 model for us, and not like the NSA or[br]something else. Another example of a 0:18:32.130,0:18:38.420 project that we have is "everything about[br]health reappropriation". So as women and 0:18:38.420,0:18:44.010 queers our health is often in the hands of[br]doctors that don't explain stuff to us or 0:18:44.010,0:18:48.020 that don't do what we want them to do with[br]our health because they have norms that 0:18:48.020,0:18:54.520 we're supposed to follow. And so we work[br]around. We work with transgender people 0:18:54.520,0:19:01.640 around hormones and also with trans people[br]and women around gynecology. And so we 0:19:01.640,0:19:09.290 have a partnership with women doing self[br]gynecology workshops. So we create zines 0:19:09.290,0:19:14.500 and we share knowledge and practices about[br]those and we also have a lab project that 0:19:14.500,0:19:19.330 is inspired by the je ne peine club from[br]Calafou and also by 0:19:19.330,0:19:23.690 the Open Source estrogen project by Mary[br]Maggic that was presented in the CCC last 0:19:23.690,0:19:27.030 year [https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9036-ope[br]n_source_estrogen]. And so the goal of 0:19:27.030,0:19:31.120 this lab project is to take and analyze[br]our own cervical smear so that we can do 0:19:31.120,0:19:37.390 an our own analysis with it. And the third[br]project I wanted to talk about was "the 0:19:37.390,0:19:41.130 queer games". So the queer games is an[br]artistic and political movement that was 0:19:41.130,0:19:45.510 initiated by an Entrepeneur Mattie[br]Brice. So the idea is that they're using 0:19:45.510,0:19:49.890 game design as a tool to criticize[br]oppression systems. And so we're doing 0:19:49.890,0:19:56.160 monthly queer games workshops in order to[br]empower queer people. We empower them 0:19:56.160,0:19:59.690 through rendering our own narratives[br]visible through video games and also by 0:19:59.690,0:20:04.751 learning skills to make our own video[br]games, even though most people who come 0:20:04.751,0:20:12.190 don't have any idea of how to code, so we[br]also learn coding through it. 0:20:12.190,0:20:22.350 GdB: Thank you very much[br]applause 0:20:22.350,0:20:25.522 GdB: Thank you for that introduction into[br]your work. I think a lot of points raised 0:20:25.522,0:20:30.212 that we're gonna debate also in a minute.[br]Em, can I ask you to go next. 0:20:36.292,0:20:40.850 Em O'Sullivan: I didn't have any slides[br]but I do have some notes and my story is 0:20:40.850,0:20:45.231 maybe a bit different to my other[br]panelists because I don't come from a 0:20:45.231,0:20:50.920 specifically feminist organization. I live[br]in Brighton in the UK and our hackerspace 0:20:50.920,0:20:56.310 is called Build Brighton. It started in[br]2009 so it was a fairly early hackerspace 0:20:56.310,0:21:02.370 in the UK. It grew out of an existing[br]meetup that was focused on robotics and 0:21:02.370,0:21:06.620 some of the people involved in that group[br]decided to set up their own hackerspace. 0:21:06.620,0:21:12.630 So it began fairly organically. It was[br]inspired largely by the early U.S. hacker 0:21:12.630,0:21:18.610 spaces in particular Mitch Altman visited[br]the robotics meetup when he was in 0:21:18.610,0:21:22.420 Brighton and basically said, "hey you look[br]like the kind of group who should start a 0:21:22.420,0:21:28.450 hackerspace" and that kind of triggered[br]the idea to go and set one up. So, it 0:21:28.450,0:21:33.750 followed the same kind of ad hoc kind of[br]democracy structure. It had some informal 0:21:33.750,0:21:40.170 leaders but things were kind of largely[br]decided by group consensus. For example 0:21:40.170,0:21:45.390 when we first moved into our own dedicated[br]space, we spent the first couple of years 0:21:45.390,0:21:50.030 meeting once a week in a coworking space[br]and then in 2011 had an opportunity to get 0:21:50.030,0:21:53.871 our own workshop and the decision about[br]whether to do that was put to the entire 0:21:53.871,0:21:57.630 membership around whether we wanted to[br]take on that responsibility, those extra 0:21:57.630,0:22:01.840 costs and that decision was passed by[br]consensus and that's kind of how things 0:22:01.840,0:22:07.250 have typically been done. In terms of[br]activities there's a lot of electronics 0:22:07.250,0:22:12.280 projects typically, especially with it[br]going out to robotics group. The laser 0:22:12.280,0:22:15.380 cutter has always been really popular and[br]was one of the first tools that was bought 0:22:15.380,0:22:19.450 by the group. And we've recently had lots[br]of wood work workers coming in because we 0:22:19.450,0:22:24.770 do have a fairly well-developed wood[br]working shop. In terms of gender diversity 0:22:24.770,0:22:30.500 is also a fairly typical hackerspace.[br]There's currently 115 members of which 0:22:30.500,0:22:36.670 around 10 to 15 percent are women or femme[br]presenting people and the aim of that 0:22:36.670,0:22:40.890 statistic isn't to point out like how low[br]this representation is in this particular 0:22:40.890,0:22:47.690 space. It's to highlight that this is a[br]typical number for a hackerspace. For me 0:22:47.690,0:22:53.060 personally, a bit like Hong Phuc said, I'm[br]used to being in masculine spaces like I 0:22:53.060,0:22:58.940 trained in media production originally[br]which is very male dominated. Then when I 0:22:58.940,0:23:04.970 went to work in IT it was normal for me to[br]be at events that were mainly men and I 0:23:04.970,0:23:10.680 suppose I just got used to this and it[br]became invisible to me. At the time I was 0:23:10.680,0:23:14.720 working for a software development company[br]in Brighton and the company had two 0:23:14.720,0:23:19.750 offices one for the technical team and one[br]for the rest of the staff. So like admin 0:23:19.750,0:23:25.770 team, production team, HR, finance and so[br]on. My desk was in the tech room and I 0:23:25.770,0:23:29.520 looked up one day and realized that I was[br]the only femme presenting person in a room 0:23:29.520,0:23:36.470 of 20 men. It took that to kind of dropped[br]me back into realizing how weird the 0:23:36.470,0:23:41.820 situation was and I also realized that[br]"Build Brighton", my hackspace, was a 0:23:41.820,0:23:47.620 similar environments as well. And I became[br]really interested in why this was 0:23:47.620,0:23:52.710 happening, because hacker spaces they are[br]theoretically open environments, like our 0:23:52.710,0:23:58.300 space anyone can join. Membership is on a[br]pay what you can basis from five pounds a 0:23:58.300,0:24:03.790 month. So the financial cost to entry are[br]very low. But we are still seeing the same 0:24:03.790,0:24:08.860 issues as in other technology environments[br]and that's women and femme people were 0:24:08.860,0:24:16.430 very underrepresented. I saw this as a[br]useful opportunity to look at the cultural 0:24:16.430,0:24:21.860 issues that continue to prevent women's[br]engagement in technology spaces even when 0:24:21.860,0:24:27.460 some of those structural and financial[br]barriers have been removed. And the reason 0:24:27.460,0:24:31.830 this was really important to me as a topic[br]was because like for me personally joining 0:24:31.830,0:24:36.960 my hackerspace was an extremely empowering[br]experience. I didn't have much experience 0:24:36.960,0:24:41.700 before with DIY, with hardware, with[br]working with materials, and joining that 0:24:41.700,0:24:46.000 community and having access to those tools[br]and that knowledge had a huge impact on 0:24:46.000,0:24:51.140 how I see the world around me, on my[br]confidence to fix and adapt things when I 0:24:51.140,0:24:56.160 need to and I really want more people to[br]have access to that empowerment. 0:24:56.160,0:25:01.080 Especially people who don't necessarily[br]have existing experience with technology. 0:25:01.080,0:25:07.770 So in 2016 I began my PhD looking at how[br]some hacker spaces and maker spaces have 0:25:07.770,0:25:11.880 been more successful than others in[br]engaging women and femme people. I'm 0:25:11.880,0:25:15.950 currently still in the data collection[br]phase of my research, but I visited 0:25:15.950,0:25:20.360 various hacker spaces and maker spaces[br]around Europe and the US, spoken to lots 0:25:20.360,0:25:25.720 of people from these spaces and seen a[br]wide range of approaches to dealing with 0:25:25.720,0:25:33.360 gender diversity, ranging from acute[br]hostility towards any suggestion of 0:25:33.360,0:25:37.350 specifically trying to engage women, right[br]through to spaces that have made this a 0:25:37.350,0:25:42.711 core part of that group culture. So I hope[br]that range of perspectives can come in 0:25:42.711,0:25:48.190 useful to discussion today. And I'm also[br]currently putting together a zine with 0:25:48.190,0:25:52.540 contributions from hacker spaces and maker[br]spaces that have developed inclusive 0:25:52.540,0:25:57.210 practices, not necessarily focused on[br]gender but also on engaging other 0:25:57.210,0:26:02.150 underrepresented groups like people of[br]color, people with disabilities, people 0:26:02.150,0:26:07.350 with lower socio economic statuses because[br]I think it's really important that those 0:26:07.350,0:26:11.510 practices are publicized as widely as[br]possible so that other spaces can learn 0:26:11.510,0:26:15.400 from them. So if any of you have any[br]suggestions about spaces that should be 0:26:15.400,0:26:22.450 included in that zine please do email me.[br]My contact details are on the Fahrplan and 0:26:22.450,0:26:32.890 I would love to hear about any spaces that[br]you could recommend. 0:26:32.890,0:26:42.550 GdB: Thank you! And last but not least Lena.[br]Lena Mohr: I'm Lena, I'm one of the three 0:26:42.550,0:26:47.390 founders of "ready to code". We are an[br]organization based based in Stuttgart in 0:26:47.390,0:26:56.500 the south of Germany. Our story started...[br]so know first what we do is we inspire 0:26:56.500,0:27:01.220 women and girls to learn how to code and[br]to work in tech and support each other. 0:27:01.220,0:27:06.821 There are two main reasons why we do what[br]we do. I think the first one is quite 0:27:06.821,0:27:12.340 obvious that there are not enough women[br]who work in tech, and the second one is 0:27:12.340,0:27:17.010 more personal because I am a user[br]experience designer, and part of my 0:27:17.010,0:27:21.440 studies was learning how to code and I[br]found it extremely difficult because I had 0:27:21.440,0:27:27.440 all these biases and pictures in my head[br]and I just knew that I was going to fail 0:27:27.440,0:27:34.270 at coding before I ever wrote my first[br]line of code. I was not alone with this. I 0:27:34.270,0:27:42.130 saw this and a lot of my friends and a lot[br]of the girls who studied with me. And the 0:27:42.130,0:27:47.150 good news is that we had to pass the exam[br]so we sort of had to learn it. and I also 0:27:47.150,0:27:54.030 had really great and really patient[br]friends who not only taught me to code and 0:27:54.030,0:27:59.809 taught me the facts but also convinced me[br]that I was able to do that. And the moment 0:27:59.809,0:28:04.630 when you clicked like you said that was a[br]really empowering moment, because I felt 0:28:04.630,0:28:10.540 like the not only the knowledge opened a[br]whole new world of opportunities, but also 0:28:10.540,0:28:15.309 the self-confidence that I gained through[br]that. And that is what we also want to 0:28:15.309,0:28:23.130 share with other women and girls. So what[br]we do is we run workshops for women and 0:28:23.130,0:28:30.710 for girls and like Le Reset we make sure[br]that they are for a beginner so everyone 0:28:30.710,0:28:34.610 can participate, and I think we're[br]probably going to talk about that as well 0:28:34.610,0:28:41.300 a little bit further. And we also have a[br]networking event that's called cocktails 0:28:41.300,0:28:48.550 and code where women in tech can meet and[br]connect and share their experiences and we 0:28:48.550,0:28:52.540 organize lightning talks from female[br]speakers so yeah people who are new to 0:28:52.540,0:28:59.830 tech can come and it's fairly low level[br]and everyone can participate. And we also 0:28:59.830,0:29:03.910 organize different events. For example a[br]couple of weeks ago we organized a social 0:29:03.910,0:29:10.180 hackathon on and I think what we do a[br]little bit different is that one of our 0:29:10.180,0:29:18.290 founders is a guy, a straight cis guy. So[br]a lot of the volunteers that are working 0:29:18.290,0:29:25.970 for us are also male and we had a lot of[br]good experiences with this because we 0:29:25.970,0:29:30.011 think it's important to include everyone.[br]But we talked a little bit before and I 0:29:30.011,0:29:34.350 think we're going to have a discussion[br]about that afterwards as well, that a lot 0:29:34.350,0:29:41.010 of women who come to us are also looking[br]for females only space, so they really 0:29:41.010,0:29:46.290 appreciate a safer space where they can[br]just be around other women. 0:29:46.290,0:29:59.350 GdB: Thank you very much, Lena. So as[br]you've heard we have very different work 0:29:59.350,0:30:03.920 rounds that say very different rooms of[br]experiences. And we'd like to just jump 0:30:03.920,0:30:07.630 right into discussion. We're going to take[br]about 15, 20 minutes to discuss a little 0:30:07.630,0:30:12.710 bit amongst ourselves before opening and[br]including all of you in the debate. So 0:30:12.710,0:30:18.490 let's pick up straight the point that you[br]closed with and I'd like you to join in 0:30:18.490,0:30:24.380 but I think I'll direct the question at[br]you first. Sometimes we have to, or it 0:30:24.380,0:30:29.721 seems that way, we'd have to be exclusive[br]in order to increase inclusion or 0:30:29.721,0:30:33.670 fairness. And if I understood you[br]correctly you've created a space that 0:30:33.670,0:30:39.772 doesn't necessarily exclude anybody but it[br]doesn't put straight men in the focus. Can 0:30:39.772,0:30:43.480 you explain a little bit exactly how you[br]try to shape that community that you're 0:30:43.480,0:30:48.480 working with and where you're where you[br]drew the line of inclusion and exclusion 0:30:48.480,0:30:55.210 in your approach.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): So we have a 0:30:55.210,0:30:59.580 code of conduct. Everybody is welcome to[br]come into hackerspace as long as they 0:30:59.580,0:31:07.030 apply to the code of conduct. So we are[br]open to everyone but everything that we 0:31:07.030,0:31:12.050 organize is directed to queer people and[br]women. So our communication is oriented 0:31:12.050,0:31:18.580 towards them. The workshops organized also[br]by queer people and women. So basically we 0:31:18.580,0:31:21.870 just don't care about straight men.[br]Gdb: But they can come. 0:31:21.870,0:31:31.864 Le Reset speaker (right): They can come.[br](laughter and applause) 0:31:31.864,0:31:32.970 Gdb: Lena you said one of your founders is 0:31:32.970,0:31:38.240 a straight man, so that's something that[br]you do that you do differently. 0:31:38.240,0:31:42.500 Lena: We just started a year ago so we are[br]also still trying our different 0:31:42.500,0:31:48.270 approaches. And I like what you said that,[br]I think you mentioned that they are 0:31:48.270,0:31:57.250 invited if they want to come but you're[br]not marketing for them. You saw our logo. 0:31:57.250,0:32:03.720 And in the first workshop that we ran for[br]kids we said it's only for girls. And the 0:32:03.720,0:32:07.620 second one we said we have reserving a[br]number of seats for girls because we want 0:32:07.620,0:32:13.380 to increase diversity and no boy signed[br]up. So from now on we're not even putting 0:32:13.380,0:32:19.710 it's only for girls on our flyers but[br]because it looks so girly no boys 0:32:19.710,0:32:23.820 interested in joining us apparently and I[br]think that's interesting because usually 0:32:23.820,0:32:29.400 it works the other way around so probably[br]subconsciously or unconsciously it's 0:32:29.400,0:32:37.210 posters or websites look like they're made[br]for boys or for guys and women don't feel 0:32:37.210,0:32:43.020 attrackted to it. And we do it the other[br]way around and it works quite well. But 0:32:43.020,0:32:47.610 yeah. But we also have men that are asking[br]us like "Oh we we also like cocktails and 0:32:47.610,0:32:53.999 code, Why can't we join?" And it's like[br]yeah of course you can. You're welcome. We 0:32:53.999,0:32:56.740 didn't have any negative experience with[br]it so far. 0:32:56.740,0:33:01.490 GdB [to Em O'Sullivan]: you're going to be[br]our academic sounding board at this panel. 0:33:01.490,0:33:05.830 In the research that you've conducted, do[br]you see certain kinds of trends emerging 0:33:05.830,0:33:13.370 or sort of maybe perhaps as a strength of[br]certain strategies of those hacker spaces 0:33:13.370,0:33:20.230 or communities or programs that try to[br]specifically target not straight men but 0:33:20.230,0:33:25.400 other communities. On the question of "how[br]exclusive do you have to be, to be 0:33:25.400,0:33:30.380 inclusive".[br]Em O'Sullivan: So, I've been to spaces 0:33:30.380,0:33:34.140 that are women only or women and non[br]binary people only, and they're really 0:33:34.140,0:33:39.890 important for getting over the question of[br]"is it just that women aren't interested" 0:33:39.890,0:33:43.510 which is something that I've encountered[br]in a few spaces. It's like well you know 0:33:43.510,0:33:46.670 we're not excluding women they just don't[br]seem to be interested. They're not coming 0:33:46.670,0:33:50.270 here. And then when you provide a women[br]only space and women go there, then you 0:33:50.270,0:33:53.390 can point to that and go: Well okay that's[br]just not true. That must be something 0:33:53.390,0:33:57.940 about these other spaces that isn't[br]including them. But then the next step is 0:33:57.940,0:34:03.000 how do you get that inclusion to work in[br]an all gender space. Because, we live in 0:34:03.000,0:34:07.770 an all gender world. And how do you it[br]take out of those safe spaces and take it 0:34:07.770,0:34:15.899 into other environments and that there[br]does need to be a specific aim to be 0:34:15.899,0:34:22.220 inclusive. It's interesting that you say[br]it's like, we don't exclude men. We just 0:34:22.220,0:34:28.961 kind of don't focus stuff on them. And[br]that seems to be the approach of maker 0:34:28.961,0:34:32.730 spaces, and hacker spaces in general.[br]Except there's no recognition of that. 0:34:32.730,0:34:35.549 There's that, well, we don't exclude[br]women. You know, they're just not here. 0:34:35.549,0:34:39.279 Like, they could come here and there's not[br]the recognition that all of their 0:34:39.279,0:34:43.329 presentation, like all of the their[br]culture, from the outside looks like it's 0:34:43.329,0:34:46.659 geared towards men. And so of course[br]that's the kind of people that they 0:34:46.659,0:34:50.519 attract. But yeah, they haven't made that[br]decision, it's just what they're doing and 0:34:50.519,0:34:55.519 there's no recognition of it. So yeah, to[br]change that there does have to be a 0:34:55.519,0:34:59.089 recognition that if you want to attract[br]people from different groups then you do 0:34:59.089,0:35:03.799 need to reach out and specifically engage[br]them. it's not going to just happen by 0:35:03.799,0:35:07.280 itself.[br]GdB: Thank you. Hong, how has it been for 0:35:07.280,0:35:13.920 you in the last 10 years of managing FOSS[br]Asia? Because, there's another level that 0:35:13.920,0:35:17.869 comes in. You do this across different[br]cultures and across different countries 0:35:17.869,0:35:23.829 within Southeast Asia. How do you find[br]that it's developed over the last 10 0:35:23.829,0:35:29.680 years, and how much do you have to put an[br]emphasis on trying to bring in not just 0:35:29.680,0:35:33.489 women, but perhaps also people from[br]different backgrounds into your community. 0:35:33.489,0:35:39.410 Hong Phuc Dang: So, if you look at[br]Southeast Asia, and I look at and FOSS 0:35:39.410,0:35:44.960 Asian community we find diverse and[br]inclusive. It would take forever to talk 0:35:44.960,0:35:48.960 about of different cultures from[br]Singapore, Malaysia. It's also related to 0:35:48.960,0:35:55.660 the religions and the culture of each[br]country. But, could I ask the Le RESET 0:35:55.660,0:36:01.440 hackerspace a question? I was curious. I[br]kind of have the same opinion with Em. I 0:36:01.440,0:36:07.470 was curious, was there any experience in[br]the past that motivated you to create a 0:36:07.470,0:36:13.740 base that or focus more on women instead[br]of men. Is there any bad experience, an 0:36:13.740,0:36:20.159 incident that occurred to you?[br]Le Reset speaker: Yes, of course. 0:36:20.159,0:36:23.539 Hong Phuc Dang: Could you share a little[br]bit about it? Because, I always say I, 0:36:23.539,0:36:28.230 fought it passive, you know that maybe I[br]was lucky, because in our community I 0:36:28.230,0:36:34.329 haven't experienced that much of a kind of[br]incident that make me feel that I need a 0:36:34.329,0:36:39.280 space for myself. Because when I joined[br]the open source community, I feel that 0:36:39.280,0:36:44.670 everyone's very welcome, and also people[br]don't look at you as who you are. People 0:36:44.670,0:36:47.983 always look at your work and your[br]contribution to the community. So, 0:36:47.983,0:36:51.140 sometimes you're in a conversation and you[br]don't even realize that you are with a 0:36:51.140,0:36:56.940 bunch of other people from Europe or men.[br]You focus on the topic, and the work that 0:36:56.940,0:37:02.384 you do. So I'm curious to learn about the[br]incident that you had before. 0:37:02.384,0:37:07.270 Le Reset speaker (left): I have a few[br]examples if you want, but I think it's not 0:37:07.270,0:37:12.091 about what you can do or not, that it's[br]about coming in the space and you feeling 0:37:12.091,0:37:19.880 that you can come here and stay and be[br]well welcomed. So, as a woman actually... 0:37:19.880,0:37:30.569 I'm sorry I'm a little sick. The people[br]were asking if I came with my boyfriend, 0:37:30.569,0:37:37.319 where he was. So, they were wondering what[br]I was doing here, because I was a woman. 0:37:37.319,0:37:42.499 So, sorry, I don't have any boyfriend,[br]will never have one, but many girlfriends. 0:37:42.499,0:37:53.559 So, no. And also, I was waiting to do lock[br]picking and waiting in the line to do 0:37:53.559,0:37:57.820 that. When I came to the tools the guy[br]said: Oh sorry, you have to leave the 0:37:57.820,0:38:04.716 place for the guy, because I was just here[br]to look not to try. Many things like that. 0:38:04.716,0:38:06.400 Hong Phuc Dang: Did that lock picking[br]happen here at a congress? 0:38:06.400,0:38:09.319 Le Reset speaker (left): Yeah, I know.[br]Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so now we know what 0:38:09.319,0:38:14.160 prevent women from joining the tech[br]community. So maybe it wasn't intentional? 0:38:14.160,0:38:18.200 GdB (to Hong Phuc Dang): So you, I mean I[br]think it's really interesting what you 0:38:18.200,0:38:21.060 said, when in your community and[br]experience you have you see the code and 0:38:21.060,0:38:25.770 not the gender. I think a lot of people[br]here in the room. I'm guessing it came to 0:38:25.770,0:38:28.809 the session but also on the panel have had[br]really different experiences, but of 0:38:28.809,0:38:33.619 course this is really positive here. Maybe[br]even a little bit surprising to hear, 0:38:33.619,0:38:40.480 because perhaps that would have been maybe[br]a stereotypical perception that in some 0:38:40.480,0:38:44.559 other societies which are part of[br]South/Southeast Asia the very traditional 0:38:44.559,0:38:50.200 and it's maybe not so typical for women to[br]be or people of different backgrounds. 0:38:50.200,0:38:52.890 Maybe, like I said not just women but also[br]people of different educational 0:38:52.890,0:38:55.960 backgrounds of different cultural[br]backgrounds to be part of this community. 0:38:55.960,0:39:01.589 But of course it's very nice to hear that[br]you've had a very different experience. 0:39:01.589,0:39:06.480 That's I think a keyword that we've heard[br]from many of you and you also mentioned 0:39:06.480,0:39:11.499 your core values is empowerment and[br]creating empowerment empowering 0:39:11.499,0:39:17.140 experiences for others. You've already[br]said a little bit about how you try to do 0:39:17.140,0:39:21.200 that and giving people space to create[br]their own narratives. Do you want to share 0:39:21.200,0:39:24.000 a little bit more, what have been like[br]successes for you were you noticed this 0:39:24.000,0:39:34.791 has been working for your commu nity.[br]Lena Mohr: Maybe I could start? 0:39:34.791,0:39:39.440 Le Reset speaker(right): Go on.[br]Lena Mohr: I think one of the women who 0:39:39.440,0:39:44.119 came to our meetup afterwards. She came to[br]us and she was really happy and she said 0:39:44.119,0:39:49.009 like: "Ok, I have a place where I can be[br]among my geek friends and talk about geeky 0:39:49.009,0:39:52.930 stuff and I have my feminist friends to[br]whom I can come and talk about feminist 0:39:52.930,0:39:58.190 stuff and but I never had both." So I have[br]friends and I think it's also important 0:39:58.190,0:40:01.450 that you mentioned that it wasn't it[br]probably wasn't intentional, when someone 0:40:01.450,0:40:04.950 asks you like: "Hey where's your[br]boyfriend?". Maybe it was trying to start 0:40:04.950,0:40:06.940 a conversation, but that doesn't make it[br]any better. 0:40:06.940,0:40:09.380 Le Reset speaker (left): I'm not sure,[br]but... 0:40:09.380,0:40:13.589 Lena Mohr: Ok, that's even...[br]GdB: Yeah, I mean I can also say like I 0:40:13.589,0:40:17.940 have the same experience regularly and[br]it's an... Even in spaces where I've been 0:40:17.940,0:40:25.500 member for years and that I really love[br]dearly and I think you know you sort of at 0:40:25.500,0:40:32.020 least me, past me I never try to take[br]offense, but of course it is offensive and 0:40:32.020,0:40:36.019 this is something we had a quick chat[br]about your level of tolerance for this. 0:40:36.019,0:40:42.820 The threshold of acceptance is for me at[br]least becomes less and less and I think we 0:40:42.820,0:40:47.390 had a quick conversation and one of the[br]keywords was patience. So, when you have 0:40:47.390,0:40:52.869 tried to sort of, yeah, already create[br]spaces that are different for communities 0:40:52.869,0:40:57.460 like all of ours that are different you[br]want... You know, you expect more 0:40:57.460,0:41:02.871 basically. Expect people to be better at[br]this game and things to change faster. So 0:41:02.871,0:41:05.420 I think the sort of level of frustration[br]that builds up when you find it is not 0:41:05.420,0:41:10.529 changing as you know just as you said in[br]your talk. It's shocking to hear that that 0:41:10.529,0:41:14.069 level of apprehension of including women[br]and doing things to actually really 0:41:14.069,0:41:18.920 support women coming in and making sure[br]all parts of society are equally 0:41:18.920,0:41:24.060 represented is still that strong. Do[br]you... Have you looked into like the "why" 0:41:24.060,0:41:26.650 a little bit in your research.[br]Em O'Sullivan: Like something that's 0:41:26.650,0:41:32.829 really interesting is that, in the absence[br]of groups like people with disabilities is 0:41:32.829,0:41:41.680 more readily seen as something that can be[br]helped by changing the space by 0:41:41.680,0:41:48.729 introducing kind of ramps, wheelchair[br]access technologies and rearranging the 0:41:48.729,0:41:52.650 space, so that it's more accessible. But[br]then when it comes to cultural aspects, 0:41:52.650,0:41:56.749 such as including women, that seen as[br]something that's unchangeable. So spaces 0:41:56.749,0:42:01.460 are often willing to change to be more[br]diverse, but they have kind of a mental 0:42:01.460,0:42:06.279 block on being able to include people like[br]women or people of color, who they see as 0:42:06.279,0:42:10.696 more kind of. There's no way that these[br]groups can come and join us. They're just 0:42:10.696,0:42:14.160 not interested and so like that's a very[br]unusual thing to see. 0:42:14.160,0:42:20.460 GdB: So you mentioned earlier, that you[br]have a code of conduct. And... and I think 0:42:20.460,0:42:24.290 that's, I'd love to hear like, how did you[br]develop this code of conduct for your 0:42:24.290,0:42:27.799 community? And is this sort of a living[br]thing? Did you come up with this in the 0:42:27.799,0:42:31.410 beginning and it's been set like that or[br]is it something that you revise and how do 0:42:31.410,0:42:35.299 you implement it?[br]Le Reset speaker (left): Actually it's a 0:42:35.299,0:42:42.519 really simple code of conduct with 10[br]phrases and sentences and it says not to 0:42:42.519,0:42:48.999 discriminate anybody and to respect[br]boundaries and things that are making us 0:42:48.999,0:42:57.740 all live together well. That's the[br]important thing is that we endorse it 0:42:57.740,0:43:08.200 really, so we put it on the walls. We talk[br]about it and we observe the dynamics into 0:43:08.200,0:43:16.999 the hackerspace. What do people do. How do[br]they feel we welcome them. We apply ethics 0:43:16.999,0:43:25.729 of care that do the things I was talking[br]about. We help people, but we do not do 0:43:25.729,0:43:30.809 things on their behalf. We do not speak[br]for the persons, but we are here to 0:43:30.809,0:43:34.680 support, if they need. That's how it[br]works. 0:43:34.680,0:43:38.569 GdB: So are there many cases, where you[br]find, you need to mediate or have you had 0:43:38.569,0:43:42.599 cases where you've had to exclude people[br]based on your code of conduct? 0:43:42.599,0:43:47.940 Le Reset speaker (right): We haven't[br]excluded many people, but we feel totally 0:43:47.940,0:43:54.190 fine with having to exclude someone, we're[br]not afraid of it. But usually we try to 0:43:54.190,0:44:00.660 talk to the person before we have to get[br]them out and remind them of the code of 0:44:00.660,0:44:08.819 conduct. Our code of conduct is something[br]that we have to apply, but it's also full 0:44:08.819,0:44:14.359 of keywords and so the idea is that every[br]time we're saying that organizing a 0:44:14.359,0:44:18.050 workshop or doing your conference we talk[br]about it and we tell people to read it 0:44:18.050,0:44:22.900 before they come. So that they also can[br]google the words that they don't know, so 0:44:22.900,0:44:28.380 that they come into hackerspace and they[br]know what it means to actually respect 0:44:28.380,0:44:35.420 somebodies pronouns or things like this.[br]GdB: So. How would you all balance sort of 0:44:35.420,0:44:40.539 the mission of what your space is about to[br]do and what your communities are there to 0:44:40.539,0:44:46.320 do in terms of creating safe space for the[br]people that you have as part of your 0:44:46.320,0:44:53.150 community and educating the rest of the[br]world. 0:44:53.150,0:45:03.900 Hong Phuc Dang: I can say something. So[br]code of conduct is a good way to ensure 0:45:03.900,0:45:10.050 that safe space for people. And in terms[br]of inclusiveness, so there, so I think 0:45:10.050,0:45:14.500 that in order to solve this problems at[br]first, is a good way that we bring people 0:45:14.500,0:45:19.509 together who can talk about the challenges[br]and incidents; that they had in the past 0:45:19.509,0:45:24.839 so that the people in the audience also[br]aware that they might not intentionally 0:45:24.839,0:45:29.819 raise this question. But now people aware[br]of what could be offense do to another 0:45:29.819,0:45:33.359 members. But I think one of the bigger[br]challenge is that the people in the 0:45:33.359,0:45:40.059 community sometimes people are not aware[br]of the level the difference of background 0:45:40.059,0:45:45.309 of different people in the community. For[br]instance, I want to give one example. So, 0:45:45.309,0:45:50.759 when you visit one of the hackersspace in[br]Singapore. Normally when you come in even 0:45:50.759,0:45:56.160 though this is your first time entered a[br]hackerspace, nobody would come and talk to 0:45:56.160,0:46:00.239 you, try to introduce to you to the space,[br]what other equipment is, because they 0:46:00.239,0:46:03.249 assumed that you already have the[br]knowledge. If you enter this, there's got 0:46:03.249,0:46:08.900 to be good you know everything. And[br]sometime I found a little bit intimidated 0:46:08.900,0:46:14.071 that I did not understand some joke that[br]make by my male colleagues, because they 0:46:14.071,0:46:19.210 have different kind of knowledge coming[br]from the west from Europe or America. So 0:46:19.210,0:46:22.700 it's very important that we are aware that[br]people coming from different backgrounds. 0:46:22.700,0:46:25.920 So something that you think that is so[br]obvious to you that might not be obvious 0:46:25.920,0:46:31.950 to people. And it might raise some kind of[br]conflict and misunderstanding. Something 0:46:31.950,0:46:36.779 if we are all aware, that piece of[br]knowledge we have might not be relevant to 0:46:36.779,0:46:45.460 another person and always be aware and be[br]more flexible, then that could be less 0:46:45.460,0:46:50.580 complex in the community in my opinion.[br]GdB: So again like I said 0:46:50.580,0:46:56.429 (applause)[br]GdB: you're free to applaud. 0:46:56.429,0:47:03.799 GdB: How do you try to balance that?[br]Le Reset speaker (right): We welcome 0:47:03.799,0:47:08.430 everybody that comes into this space.[br]We're here every Sunday, so we usually 0:47:08.430,0:47:12.630 know who has come before and who hasn't.[br]And every time we see a new person there 0:47:12.630,0:47:16.990 is always someone who comes and explain[br]the code of conduct, but also like: what 0:47:16.990,0:47:23.200 is this space, where you can find the[br]stickers, where is the workshop. So we 0:47:23.200,0:47:26.910 explain everything.[br]GdB: I think that sounds really nice. I 0:47:26.910,0:47:30.619 think from what you've explained there's a[br]lot of magic in that very personal 0:47:30.619,0:47:37.119 approach. You know, it's not that you're[br]like take them into your space when they 0:47:37.119,0:47:40.990 come in, but it's like this taking care of[br]each other and looking out for one 0:47:40.990,0:47:45.130 another, which should be part of[br]respectful human conduct. No matter what 0:47:45.130,0:47:51.650 kind of human you are. Right. Maybe one[br]last topic on the panel before we open up 0:47:51.650,0:47:56.390 a little bit or maybe wanted to. I thought[br]it was really interesting to read on one 0:47:56.390,0:48:02.660 of the little things on your slide. I[br]really like the one that said, I was writing 0:48:02.660,0:48:07.950 too fast now I can't read my own writing:[br]"It is just privileged people's choice."? 0:48:07.950,0:48:18.900 So in my experience very often we create[br]spaces like yours or like community, or 0:48:18.900,0:48:24.339 creating the mind of creating. Bringing in[br]new people and giving people, who maybe 0:48:24.339,0:48:30.869 haven't had sort of their typical tech[br]career, a chance to explore and see that 0:48:30.869,0:48:35.059 they can be the creators of technology[br]themselves. But we end up also creating 0:48:35.059,0:48:40.249 kind of bubbles and usually attracting[br]people with a certain background, usually 0:48:40.249,0:48:46.009 creating spaces with people. We live in[br]Europe, we're like, you know, middle class 0:48:46.009,0:48:51.119 white communities. And that's also,[br]perhaps, not the level of playing fields, 0:48:51.119,0:48:54.569 when it comes to creating inclusive[br]technology. Is that something that you 0:48:54.569,0:48:58.530 address in your spaces? I'm not looking at[br]you specifically because it's a little bit 0:48:58.530,0:49:03.770 of a different intercultural setting that[br]you have with FOSS Asia. But how does 0:49:03.770,0:49:07.960 that come into play, when we talk about[br]diversity in your experiences? 0:49:07.960,0:49:15.339 Le Reset speaker (left): Actually we are[br]located in a queer bar. So the people that 0:49:15.339,0:49:23.719 are used to come to this bar to party and[br]date - they also come on Sundays, so we 0:49:23.719,0:49:31.420 have people that would never enter a [br]hacker space, you know, in other times. So we 0:49:31.420,0:49:42.920 have, actually, met many women, many trans[br]people and queer people. One time we had 0:49:42.920,0:49:47.619 this girl, who never touched a computer.[br]We have people who have never played video 0:49:47.619,0:49:54.870 games and so on. So we have really diverse[br]public. 0:49:54.870,0:49:57.550 GdB: I think that's also interesting as[br]that was mentioned before the setting of 0:49:57.550,0:50:01.499 where your space actually is, which is a[br]really important fact of how to make 0:50:01.499,0:50:06.840 spaces accessible to different communities[br]as well. How's that for the space that you 0:50:06.840,0:50:09.650 have out there?[br]Em: So this is such a tricky question and 0:50:09.650,0:50:14.260 particularly with the volunteer one[br]spaces. You have a limited amount of time 0:50:14.260,0:50:19.660 and energy and do you spend that on[br]educating people, or do you spend it on 0:50:19.660,0:50:26.239 engaging with people, who can use your[br]resources. And I lean towards the 0:50:26.239,0:50:31.650 engagement. I feel that it's important to[br]kind of get people in and to share what we 0:50:31.650,0:50:36.839 already have with other groups. There are[br]resources out there, where people can 0:50:36.839,0:50:41.299 educate themselves - like people in[br]technology communities, like very 0:50:41.299,0:50:45.349 intelligent people, like they are more[br]than capable of kind of finding other 0:50:45.349,0:50:52.950 resources and educating themselves. And if[br]the group has the capacity, for example, 0:50:52.950,0:50:58.650 to run workshops around specific issues,[br]around consents, around kind of 0:50:58.650,0:51:03.239 introductions to feminism and other topics[br]- then that's great. And that can be a 0:51:03.239,0:51:09.009 great way of educating our own community[br]and also taking those ideas into the 0:51:09.009,0:51:16.249 outside community. But I think if it[br]was... if time was limited then I would 0:51:16.249,0:51:21.330 definitely want to dedicate more to[br]engagement rather than educating people 0:51:21.330,0:51:25.529 who are capable of educating themselves.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): About that 0:51:25.529,0:51:29.930 education. Our hackerspace has been[br]invited to give feminism 101 talks 0:51:29.930,0:51:36.829 like a lot. And so we answered yes to[br]those invitation and then we did not do 0:51:36.829,0:51:40.940 feminism 101, because we believe[br]that there has been enough talks about 0:51:40.940,0:51:45.359 feminism 101 already and there is[br]plenty of things available on the 0:51:45.359,0:51:53.920 Internet. So we make usually talks about[br]ethics of care or cyber feminism. And 0:51:53.920,0:51:59.969 every time we go somewhere we have a wiki[br]page about it with all the links about 0:51:59.969,0:52:07.730 four lines definition on Wikipedia or 40[br]pages PDF that you can download, or 0:52:07.730,0:52:12.270 podcasts, so all the feminism 101[br]and all the education has already been 0:52:12.270,0:52:17.440 done. So we are making sure that it's[br]accessible and then we are moving on, 0:52:17.440,0:52:21.650 because as you said we don't have this[br]energy to do again and again what other 0:52:21.650,0:52:32.209 have done before us.[br]applause 0:52:32.209,0:52:35.799 Lena: I think you've mentioned it already.[br]And I think you're also working 0:52:35.799,0:52:41.329 voluntarily or a lot of volunteers come[br]and so, do they have the time and energy? 0:52:41.329,0:52:46.589 As for me it's also sometimes... I'm just[br]not in the mood to explain everything 0:52:46.589,0:52:53.140 again, like the really 101 stuff.[br]But other times, when I feel like someone 0:52:53.140,0:52:58.299 is really curious and really wants to[br]learn something, and is respectful, and is 0:52:58.299,0:53:06.079 not trying to provoke a discussion just to[br]have a discussion - because then, yeah, I 0:53:06.079,0:53:10.190 don't know... With some persons I feel[br]like: okay, for him it might be a fun 0:53:10.190,0:53:13.920 discussion just to, I don't know, just to[br]test the borders and see how far you can 0:53:13.920,0:53:19.310 go. But for me it's like: okay I'm talking[br]if I have the right to be here as a woman 0:53:19.310,0:53:22.690 and I don't always feel like I want to[br]discuss that. 0:53:22.690,0:53:28.969 GdB: Your patience level is going down as[br]well. Hong Phuc, how is it for you, how do 0:53:28.969,0:53:33.880 you try to engage people in open source[br]communities that perhaps wouldn't normally 0:53:33.880,0:53:42.219 walk into a hackerspace? Or don't yet know[br]about the work that you do. 0:53:42.219,0:53:53.569 Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So I found FOSS[br]Asia. And then for me it was quite lucky, 0:53:53.569,0:53:59.239 because the founder of the organization is[br]a female. So it also help make other 0:53:59.239,0:54:04.250 people feel more comfortable to engage[br]with the open source community. But I 0:54:04.250,0:54:14.359 think as Em and Lena also said that the[br]number of women, who work in the tech 0:54:14.359,0:54:23.390 community, is very small. And I think it's[br]important to understand that when you talk 0:54:23.390,0:54:26.630 about technology - it's not only about[br]coding, because there are so many 0:54:26.630,0:54:33.089 different responsibilities and a[br]possibility that you could engage the 0:54:33.089,0:54:39.339 woman or other community members in the[br]community. So it's important to have the 0:54:39.339,0:54:44.109 guide lines to help people, a lot of good[br]documentation. To show people that by 0:54:44.109,0:54:49.619 joining the community the first step you[br]did not have to fix a bug or write a line of 0:54:49.619,0:54:53.469 code in order to join the community. You[br]can do a translation, you can do design, 0:54:53.469,0:54:59.380 localization - many things that any single[br]one of us can be involved in, can 0:54:59.380,0:55:06.239 contribute as our space. So I think that[br]is one step to lower the barriers to enter 0:55:06.239,0:55:09.369 the community.[br]GdB:Thank you. 0:55:09.369,0:55:16.309 applause[br]GdB: I'd like to start opening up the 0:55:16.309,0:55:20.960 questions and comments. We have I think[br]two microphones here in the center of the 0:55:20.960,0:55:29.569 room and... you're first.[br]Mic: Hello. First of all thank you girls 0:55:29.569,0:55:34.200 very much for this session. I kind of[br]relate to that, we're so to say from the 0:55:34.200,0:55:42.680 same club. I came from Estonia and there[br]I'm the organizer of the conference women 0:55:42.680,0:55:50.509 in cybersecurity and also head of Google[br]women tech makers in Estonia. And I can 0:55:50.509,0:55:55.880 rely to a lot of things, which you have[br]mentioned. But what I am really interested 0:55:55.880,0:56:03.069 because you're from different countries[br]is... Ms Dong has answered this question 0:56:03.069,0:56:09.229 partially, but I'm interested in other[br]answers. How do you actually attract more 0:56:09.229,0:56:14.039 women into IT? Not from the marketing[br]perspective, but from the perspective for 0:56:14.039,0:56:22.069 your mission of your hacker space or your[br]community. And how do you make those 0:56:22.069,0:56:26.720 people stay and come to the events or, if[br]not come to the events, how do you make 0:56:26.720,0:56:33.150 them thinking of that and continue[br]studying? Yeah. And the success story that 0:56:33.150,0:56:38.420 is something what we all would be really[br]interested in hearing. Because, for 0:56:38.420,0:56:43.359 example, from Ms. Dong's story we can see[br]the open source projects I guess still a 0:56:43.359,0:56:48.160 lot of girls might have been involved[br]there; and the hotel and other projects. 0:56:48.160,0:56:52.289 But what about the Europe? Tell us, that's[br]very curious. Thank you. 0:56:52.289,0:56:57.329 GdB: Thank you very much. So we collect a[br]couple and then go around or how would you 0:56:57.329,0:57:01.829 like to do it?[br]Mic: I can remind the questions if needed. 0:57:01.829,0:57:08.240 How do you attract, how do you keep people[br]and how do you... the success stories. 0:57:08.240,0:57:13.180 GdB: Thank you. So let's do that. Do you[br]have your community, is it very 0:57:13.180,0:57:16.910 fluctuating? Or do you have a kind of[br]stable group of people? Do you ever have a 0:57:16.910,0:57:19.980 problem of connecting them back to your[br]space? 0:57:19.980,0:57:26.779 Mic: Just before we start from the answer[br]for ladies - there is something else I 0:57:26.779,0:57:28.960 wanted to mention. I also come not from[br]a.... 0:57:28.960,0:57:33.059 GdB: There is a long queue behind you, and[br]we've already collected a couple of 0:57:33.059,0:57:34.059 questions, so maybe just one more[br]sentence. 0:57:34.059,0:57:37.589 Mic: Of course. Yeah. Thank you... No,[br]then go ahead for the answer. 0:57:37.589,0:57:43.540 GdB: Okay. Thank you. How long time is[br]your community, how much does it 0:57:43.540,0:57:47.430 fluctuate, how do you sort of keep people?[br]Le Reset speaker (right): We have people 0:57:47.430,0:57:52.819 that come like every Sunday and we have[br]people, who come just for one workshop, 0:57:52.819,0:57:57.920 because they've been interested in that[br]topic. What we do to attract people is 0:57:57.920,0:58:04.089 that every Sunday we have a workshop, at[br]least one workshops, so people are usually 0:58:04.089,0:58:09.069 interested in the topic or just interested[br]in meeting new people. But they always 0:58:09.069,0:58:13.799 know that they won't just stand there and[br]have nobody to talk to. There is a 0:58:13.799,0:58:19.749 workshop, like they have a purpose for[br]being here. And because the topics are 0:58:19.749,0:58:25.940 always oriented towards women and queer we[br]don't have any issue attracting women and 0:58:25.940,0:58:30.640 queers in the hackerspace. We've never had[br]a majority of straight men in the 0:58:30.640,0:58:36.589 hackerspace that has never happened.[br]GdB: Thank you. So Em, and your 0:58:36.589,0:58:40.029 experience?[br]Em: Well, I mean it's a huge question how 0:58:40.029,0:58:46.890 do you attract women into IT and retain[br]shortthem. Just to keep my answer fairly sure: 0:58:46.890,0:58:53.279 one particular tip I have is to get a bit[br]academic for a second, kind of focus on 0:58:53.279,0:58:57.309 developing like the social bonds within[br]your community rather than necessarily the 0:58:57.309,0:59:02.569 tech aspects. Like when people have[br]friends and people they care about in this 0:59:02.569,0:59:07.959 community - they're much more likely to[br]join it and want to stay there and to get 0:59:07.959,0:59:14.519 more out of it. So sometimes focusing on[br]things that seem quite tangential like 0:59:14.519,0:59:18.980 socializing and people spending time[br]together, like outside of the physical 0:59:18.980,0:59:24.380 space and kind of doing like fun non tech[br]things together, like can actually do that 0:59:24.380,0:59:27.369 job of bringing more women than and femme[br]people in and helping them to feel 0:59:27.369,0:59:31.920 comfortable and welcome there.[br]GdB: I think there's a challenge maybe the 0:59:31.920,0:59:37.759 other way around too. In my experience[br]it's for many people spaces, like the ones 0:59:37.759,0:59:43.440 that you create, become a home and so sort[br]of keeping people, having people want to 0:59:43.440,0:59:48.589 be part of that home is not so hard. But[br]making sure that you remain open for new 0:59:48.589,0:59:53.440 people to sort of join that family and[br]feel as equally welcome can sometimes be 0:59:53.440,0:59:59.739 an even bigger challenge than attracting[br]people and keeping them in the beginning. 0:59:59.739,1:00:04.930 Next question.[br]Mic: So my question will mostly be related 1:00:04.930,1:00:10.709 to this mergery of the feminist hacker[br]spaces and the male hacker spaces. So I 1:00:10.709,1:00:17.690 see that you are making spaces for women[br]and for a queer to get creative, but 1:00:17.690,1:00:21.599 making these separate from other hacker[br]spaces in a bit of an isolation and I 1:00:21.599,1:00:29.269 guess this would be a next step to merge[br]these kind of societies. So from a male 1:00:29.269,1:00:33.539 perspective it's sometimes hard to[br]understand what female don't find 1:00:33.539,1:00:40.770 attractive or find distracting about[br]joining male societies, because feminist 1:00:40.770,1:00:48.410 activism usually do not target male to[br]express what the problem is. So what do 1:00:48.410,1:00:54.680 you think that could be done towards this[br]mergery? So to make women try to get 1:00:54.680,1:01:04.470 involved in male hacker spaces and to make[br]men more acceptive to female. So this 1:01:04.470,1:01:11.509 mergery to get involved together. I hope[br]my question was on this... 1:01:11.509,1:01:17.660 laughing[br]GdB: You can all feel free 1:01:17.660,1:01:26.886 Le Reset speaker (right): I don't think[br]our goal is to merge our hacker spaces. We 1:01:26.886,1:01:30.420 are creating hacker spaces around our[br]issues, if you want to come you're 1:01:30.420,1:01:35.789 welcome. But what you will find here is[br]things that concerns us. But of course 1:01:35.789,1:01:43.730 you're welcome. And...[br]applause 1:01:43.730,1:01:46.160 Le Reset speaker (right): We don't have[br]any interest in your issues so we're not 1:01:46.160,1:01:50.169 coming to your hacker spaces. But...[br]applause 1:01:50.169,1:01:57.160 Mic: Yeah. I understand this. And I don't[br]think that what you do is wrong. I just 1:01:57.160,1:02:01.320 think that this is a sort of isolation[br]between two different kinds of creative 1:02:01.320,1:02:03.320 energy.[br]GdB: Let's... 1:02:03.320,1:02:07.079 Le Reset speaker (right): I think you've[br]been in isolation much more longer than 1:02:07.079,1:02:09.079 us.[br]applause 1:02:09.079,1:02:11.449 Mic: I mean probably separation, not[br]isolation. 1:02:11.449,1:02:17.579 GdB: Let's.. Again I'm gonna say, there[br]are many people queuing behind you, so we 1:02:17.579,1:02:20.239 do want to get in a conversation with[br]everyone, but we want to give everybody 1:02:20.239,1:02:26.119 the chance to speak as well. I think I'm[br]gonna rephrase your question if I may, 1:02:26.119,1:02:31.759 when it comes to the actual creation of[br]technology. Because I think that... let's 1:02:31.759,1:02:34.119 see if there are two separate things or[br]not: the one thing is that you have a 1:02:34.119,1:02:37.640 community and you have a space for that[br]community, and you want to prioritize the 1:02:37.640,1:02:42.489 issues of your community. The other[br]question is when we create technology and 1:02:42.489,1:02:45.999 we create technology for the general[br]public. How do we ensure that that 1:02:45.999,1:02:51.529 technology is created by the public as in[br]all members of that public and then 1:02:51.529,1:02:56.180 reflects all of our values equally.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe 1:02:56.180,1:02:58.180 in the general public.[br]GdB: Sorry? 1:02:58.180,1:03:00.949 Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe[br]in the general public. 1:03:00.949,1:03:09.069 applause[br]Hong Phuc Dang: So I could answer your 1:03:09.069,1:03:14.240 question. I also don't want to give[br]comment about if we merging the two 1:03:14.240,1:03:19.089 groups. But if you want to make your[br]space, any hacker space, more welcome to 1:03:19.089,1:03:23.769 woman or any member, the first thing: just[br]like in a normal context - if you have a 1:03:23.769,1:03:27.930 new guest coming to your home, the first[br]thing is that to show the guest around. 1:03:27.930,1:03:35.169 Like to interact with a person and to be[br]patient, and show them what they can do. 1:03:35.169,1:03:38.650 And also one thing that I mentioned[br]earlier: because people have different 1:03:38.650,1:03:42.469 background knowledge so it's more[br]important that you find out what is their 1:03:42.469,1:03:47.859 motivation, to get to know the people[br]better. So make this more like the women 1:03:47.859,1:03:52.630 feel more comfortable to come you to your[br]space instead of asking them to merge 1:03:52.630,1:03:56.390 together with another space. Just create a[br]more friendly environment in your space. 1:03:56.390,1:04:00.099 By just approaching the people, the[br]newcomers and welcome them. 1:04:00.099,1:04:07.079 applause[br]GdB: Next person please. 1:04:07.079,1:04:15.730 Mic: So I have some more of experience to[br]share than the question. I organize events 1:04:15.730,1:04:24.740 for geeks and they are very male heavy,[br]let's say. And what I found is when it 1:04:24.740,1:04:32.150 comes to disabled people and that the[br]community is more likely to actually 1:04:32.150,1:04:37.489 change is because then they change[br]environment and they don't have to change 1:04:37.489,1:04:39.489 themselves.[br]applause 1:04:39.489,1:04:44.819 Mic: The huge problem usually is that the[br]male populated hacker space are generally 1:04:44.819,1:04:54.210 community in general, feel that when they[br]have to open to female presence or a gay 1:04:54.210,1:05:00.289 presence, etc. they have to change their[br]own behavior. And that it's not something 1:05:00.289,1:05:04.630 they are willing to do. Sadly enough.[br]Thanks. 1:05:04.630,1:05:10.179 GdB: Thank you. Was that question in there[br]you just wanted to share. Okay good. Thank 1:05:10.179,1:05:12.709 you. There's an online question we'd like[br]to take next please. 1:05:12.709,1:05:16.680 Signal Angel: The question was answered.[br]GdB: Oh... 1:05:16.680,1:05:20.604 laughing[br]GdB: Okay then. In that case. 1:05:20.604,1:05:25.589 Mic: Hello. Thank you. First of all thank[br]you for all of your great work. I just 1:05:25.589,1:05:29.940 want to have a question about something[br]that maybe a little bit missed in this 1:05:29.940,1:05:34.309 conversation. And so we talked about all[br]of the communities and the hacker spaces 1:05:34.309,1:05:41.480 that focused on a woman and non binaries.[br]But imagine a scenario that there is a 1:05:41.480,1:05:47.170 company or there's like a startup and[br]there is not much diversity and we want to 1:05:47.170,1:05:55.140 improve like representation of people of[br]marginalized group or anyway. How 1:05:55.140,1:06:00.569 we can achieve that? There are lots of[br]suggestions like hire people who are like 1:06:00.569,1:06:07.569 visible to others, to be very open about[br]this and try to attract more people. But 1:06:07.569,1:06:13.359 is there any sort of way to talk to get[br]these successful stories about to improve 1:06:13.359,1:06:19.930 the diversity of companies and startups[br]and other types of communities? 1:06:19.930,1:06:28.470 GdB: Thank you.[br]Lena: I think it's often you have biases 1:06:28.470,1:06:34.209 sometimes in the hiring process, so maybe[br]you go through different CVs of different 1:06:34.209,1:06:39.959 persons and then you... I only know[br]examples from Germany, but I guess it's 1:06:39.959,1:06:45.569 the same everywhere. If you read a CV with[br]a name that sounds foreign to you, you 1:06:45.569,1:06:49.700 might put it to the side or might[br]automatically think: okay maybe this 1:06:49.700,1:06:58.900 person is not equally capable. Even if the[br]skills are the same. And also in your job 1:06:58.900,1:07:04.180 descriptions you can make sure that it's[br]more inclusive so you don't say like: okay 1:07:04.180,1:07:12.890 the perfect person "he" should have this[br]and that's, put "he and she". And I think 1:07:12.890,1:07:18.829 a lot of times it's about really really[br]subtle changes and small things. And like 1:07:18.829,1:07:21.369 you said it's a change of the mindset. So[br]it's... 1:07:21.369,1:07:24.771 GdB: Yeah, please.[br]Le Reset speaker (left): Actually, you 1:07:24.771,1:07:30.239 know, in Le Reset we do not value success[br]stories at all. We don't care. We value 1:07:30.239,1:07:35.630 partnership. Partnership and being well[br]together, and that's what works actually. 1:07:35.630,1:07:41.920 We do many things, but not by pushing[br]things. To be a woman or queer, or 1:07:41.920,1:07:47.709 whatever... we do what we want to do, what[br]we like and that works. That's just that. 1:07:47.709,1:07:50.189 Mic: Thank you.[br]GdB: Thank you. 1:07:50.189,1:07:55.819 applause[br]GdB: Maybe we can exchange after this. Oh 1:07:55.819,1:07:59.779 there's a lot of great written walks[br]already out there that give advice to 1:07:59.779,1:08:03.819 companies and startups that want be more[br]inclusive. But like the the simplest thing 1:08:03.819,1:08:08.599 if, like you said it yourself, if you want[br]to be inclusive - have an inclusive team. 1:08:08.599,1:08:14.279 You cannot have an inclusive or diverse[br]startup if your team are all men and the 1:08:14.279,1:08:18.820 excuse that you didn't find the right[br]people out there doesn't really go. Either 1:08:18.820,1:08:22.580 because, like you said, then maybe you're[br]looking the wrong way. And if you 1:08:22.580,1:08:26.350 seriously can't find anybody with a[br]skillset you're looking for - then help 1:08:26.350,1:08:31.500 people build that skillset. So there are[br]always ways to actually do that in your 1:08:31.500,1:08:40.440 team. Please.[br]Mic: Hi. Six of you proposed talks. We got 1:08:40.440,1:08:45.600 one talk. Yes you are six awesome women.[br]It's an awesome topic. We've got an 1:08:45.600,1:08:50.569 audience of roughly 50/50. It's one of the[br]most balanced audiences I've seen that 1:08:50.569,1:08:55.870 this entire event, but I'm pretty certain[br]that the men in here are majority male 1:08:55.870,1:09:01.170 allies. The women you're preaching to the[br]perverted here, why is it that we have 1:09:01.170,1:09:07.650 allowed ourselves to be gerrymandered in[br]this way. Why do we have only one session. 1:09:07.650,1:09:22.620 Why do we not have six sessions.[br]applause 1:09:22.620,1:09:31.600 Mic: Adams, Borg, Clark, Dijkstra. The[br]meeting rooms are named after men! Women 1:09:31.600,1:09:36.520 are 50/50 of the population. Why are we[br]allowing this to happen. I appreciate. I'm 1:09:36.520,1:09:40.447 looking you in the eye and I'm guilty[br]here of preaching to perverted too. But 1:09:40.447,1:09:45.060 why are we allowing it. Why is it[br]happening. It's 2018. It's soon to be 1:09:45.060,1:09:57.960 2019. We deserve better.[br]applause 1:09:57.960,1:10:02.959 Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. Thank you very[br]much for your concern. But I think that... 1:10:02.959,1:10:06.590 don't you think that is good to bring[br]people together because, of course like we 1:10:06.590,1:10:11.980 can have separate section, but it also[br]very good to have everyone come together 1:10:11.980,1:10:14.980 and share their opinions so we can have a[br]conversation, in which we can learn for 1:10:14.980,1:10:19.240 each other. So again that the congress is[br]very busy. Not everyone can come to every 1:10:19.240,1:10:24.400 single talk. Maybe we'll not be able to[br]attend always our friends who are the 1:10:24.400,1:10:28.350 panelists here. But it's good that we can[br]come all together. So are always pro and 1:10:28.350,1:10:31.710 con. But thank you very much for your[br]concern. 1:10:31.710,1:10:34.480 applause[br]GdB: We have exactly time for one last 1:10:34.480,1:10:37.210 question/intervention and that shall be[br]you. 1:10:37.210,1:10:42.730 Mic: Thank you. Thank you for the talk and[br]thank you for this opportunity. I'm 1:10:42.730,1:10:49.100 probably in the category of a straight[br]male engineer. But I also more or less... 1:10:49.100,1:10:55.290 but I also have, I'm running a coworking[br]space in Copenhagen and I'm specifically 1:10:55.290,1:11:00.620 focusing on making it inclusive. So I'll[br]be trying to find an information and tips 1:11:00.620,1:11:08.860 on how to do that. But I have two other[br]questions then. What would be your top 1:11:08.860,1:11:17.340 three action points on ending the digital[br]gender divide? It's a big topic, I know. 1:11:17.340,1:11:21.400 laughing[br]GdB: There's a small question for the end 1:11:21.400,1:11:22.990 of session.[br]Mic: Yeah. 1:11:22.990,1:11:26.120 GdB: And you had a second one even.[br]Mic: Yeah. The second one was... 1:11:26.120,1:11:30.120 laughing[br]Mic: I guess that's, I mean, I really see 1:11:30.120,1:11:36.370 the points being raised about designing. I[br]mean just down to the level of design: 1:11:36.370,1:11:40.730 designing a website targeted to a male[br]audience versus targeted to a female 1:11:40.730,1:12:02.230 audience. And the second question was...[br]What was that... The FOSS Asia. In Asia I 1:12:02.230,1:12:08.440 read an article lately from after access[br]magazine about Internet usage throughout 1:12:08.440,1:12:14.730 the global south. And it's thus in Asia[br]you have like 20 percent of the population 1:12:14.730,1:12:20.960 on the Internet. Do you see that as a[br]problem? And what do you think could be 1:12:20.960,1:12:23.980 done about it?[br]GdB: Okay so how do we close the digital 1:12:23.980,1:12:30.480 divide as such and how to close the gender[br]divide. Specifically. Okay. Thank you. 1:12:30.480,1:12:36.270 Hong Phuc Dang: And I don't want to[br]announce that I am suggested we have a 1:12:36.270,1:12:42.470 after panel discussion, so we hosted a[br]follow up discussion at the FOSS Asia 1:12:42.470,1:12:45.890 assembly after this. If you have more[br]questions and you want to continue the 1:12:45.890,1:12:53.150 conversation we can meet there at 8:15?[br]GdB: 8:15 to 9:15. We're not dodging your 1:12:53.150,1:12:59.500 question or we're just going to move it to[br]that meetup. I hope that's okay. As we 1:12:59.500,1:13:02.530 have run over time. But I would like to end[br]maybe with a little bit of a closing 1:13:02.530,1:13:08.941 round, because I think this came out of a[br]number of statements that you made, on 1:13:08.941,1:13:14.700 your specific and of course work as a[br]leader of the open source community, which 1:13:14.700,1:13:18.940 is on shared resources. So you mentioned[br]that a lot of times you're putting your 1:13:18.940,1:13:23.500 resources out there and they're out there[br]for other people to share and learn from. 1:13:23.500,1:13:28.460 I'd be interested and a little bit of[br]closing round of either recommendations, 1:13:28.460,1:13:32.770 reading recommendations, places to go look[br]for further information, maybe places 1:13:32.770,1:13:36.480 where you can be publishing your research.[br]But although the question of connecting 1:13:36.480,1:13:40.060 like how do we strengthen each other's[br]work. Not just by coming together at 1:13:40.060,1:13:44.580 conferences like this but by making our[br]knowledge open and sharing it and perhaps 1:13:44.580,1:13:48.980 also exchanging experiences with one[br]another. So if maybe you want to leave 1:13:48.980,1:13:53.630 with an idea or a recommendation, or a[br]point of inspiration, or question on that 1:13:53.630,1:13:56.900 issue. Let's do a quick round. You want to[br]start? 1:13:56.900,1:14:02.190 Em: So we're quite lucky in the UK that we[br]have the UK Hackspace Foundation which is 1:14:02.190,1:14:07.460 a kind of Umbrella group for the [not [br]understandable] hackerspaces in the UK and 1:14:07.460,1:14:12.500 these kind of organisations can be great[br]for raising discussions about these 1:14:12.500,1:14:17.920 topics. I'm really pushing to have more of[br]focus on inclusivity and diversity in the 1:14:17.920,1:14:21.270 UK Hackspace Foundation at the moment and[br]that can be a way of kind of funnelling 1:14:21.270,1:14:25.040 best practices out through all of the[br]member organizations. 1:14:25.040,1:14:29.900 GdB: Thank you.[br]Lena: I think for us it's we really focus 1:14:29.900,1:14:35.330 on, like you mentioned as well, the[br]personal connection. So yeah we would of 1:14:35.330,1:14:38.250 course prefer that you visit us for[br]coctails and code, and I think there are a 1:14:38.250,1:14:46.001 lot of almost.. I think in the bigger[br]cities you will find of feminist or women 1:14:46.001,1:14:51.100 only or women and non binary people only[br]spaces. And if there is none, maybe then 1:14:51.100,1:14:55.420 you should found one. Because I think it's[br]really important and I think it happens a 1:14:55.420,1:14:59.030 lot through personal connections.[br]GdB: Thank you, Lena. 1:14:59.030,1:15:03.080 Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So it is something[br]you all are welcome at our open source 1:15:03.080,1:15:08.580 hotel in Vietnam now if you ever want to[br]visit and welcome at any FOSS Asia events. 1:15:08.580,1:15:16.150 At the same time I think that we could[br]share our best practices and the 1:15:16.150,1:15:20.270 successful story on our website. So[br]whatever the FOSS Asia developed and what 1:15:20.270,1:15:23.980 we do we publish everything. I think that[br]is a good way to share resources with 1:15:23.980,1:15:29.260 other communities. And a panel discussion[br]is always good to learn and to continue 1:15:29.260,1:15:32.190 the conversation.[br]GdB: It's definitely good moment with you 1:15:32.190,1:15:35.190 guys. Sarah.[br]Le Reset speaker (right): There is only 1:15:35.190,1:15:39.170 one thing to do is to go to our Wiki. We[br]have all the resources that you need, in 1:15:39.170,1:15:41.170 French.[br]laughing 1:15:41.170,1:15:50.490 Hong Phug Dang: Our website is in English[br]laughingapplause 1:15:50.490,1:15:55.540 Le Reset speaker (right): So yeah, we will[br]try. As after this conference and this as 1:15:55.540,1:16:00.020 I say we will try to put the video on our[br]Wiki with a page with all the references 1:16:00.020,1:16:04.450 as we do usually in French and so we will[br]do it in English this time. So you should 1:16:04.450,1:16:11.400 find it in a few days on our Wiki which is[br]Wiki.LeReset.org. 1:16:11.400,1:16:15.750 GdB: Excellent.[br]applause 1:16:15.750,1:16:20.210 GdB: I would like to thank you all for[br]hanging in such great ideas for this event 1:16:20.210,1:16:24.740 for sitting on this panel and sharing your[br]thoughts and experiences. Thank you Azam. 1:16:24.740,1:16:28.789 Thank you Sarah. Thank you Hong. Thank you[br]Lena. Thank you Em. For being part of the 1:16:28.789,1:16:33.360 session. Thank you all for attending and[br]your inputs and ideas as well. And let's 1:16:33.360,1:16:36.120 say a big thank you to the stage host and[br]the translators for doing a wonderful job 1:16:36.120,1:16:37.660 as well. 1:16:37.660,1:16:40.913 applause 1:16:40.913,1:16:42.920 35c3 postroll music 1:16:42.920,1:17:05.000 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de[br]in the year 2020. Join, and help us!